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S1E5: The Breakup Nobody Talks About - When You Lose A Friend · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:04
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and hoodoo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've got the receipts.
• 0:39
  Danyelle: We've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap, so we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:50
  Danyelle: Hello.
• 0:51
  Danyelle: Heidi.
• 0:52
  Danyelle: Welcome back.
• 0:53
  Danyelle: How are you today?
• 0:54
  Danyelle: You know, I'm really well.
• 0:56
  Danyelle: I'm really well.
• 0:57
  Danyelle: The sun is shining.
• 0:59
  Danyelle: We've got a nice cool breeze here in San Francisco.
• 1:03
  Danyelle: And I'm feeling good.
• 1:04
  Danyelle: I'm feeling good.
• 1:05
  Danyelle: How about you?
• 1:06
  Michelle: I'm feeling really grateful for the community that has allowed us to show up here.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to Natalie and Dylan.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, ooh.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: I wish we had sound effects.
• 1:21
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 1:22
  Danyelle: Fired.
• 1:23
  Michelle: Who have supplied us with a space and oh my goodness.
• 1:28
  Danyelle: Phone boards, photography, art, banana bread.
• 1:34
  Danyelle: That was so bomb.
• 1:36
  Danyelle: So I'm just sitting in gratitude.
• 1:38
  Danyelle: I might maybe sneak upstairs after this one and be like, you know, homemade.
• 1:43
  Danyelle: With chocolate chips or blueberry.
• 1:46
  Danyelle: Or cranberry.
• 1:47
  Danyelle: Pick your choice.
• 1:48
  Danyelle: Abundance.
• 1:49
  Danyelle: Truly abundant.
• 1:50
  Danyelle: I mean through friendship.
• 1:51
  Danyelle: Through friendship.
• 1:52
  Danyelle: I feel that really deeply.
• 1:54
  Danyelle: And I've been feeling that specifically this week.
• 1:58
  Danyelle: And although we won't be talking about abundance and friendship today, I know.
• 2:03
  Michelle: Friendship is so great.
• 2:04
  Michelle: Let's end one.
• 2:06
  Danyelle: I do think it's important for us to name that uh we are abundant in friendship and community.
• 2:13
  Danyelle: Cheers to us.
• 2:14
  Danyelle: Cheers to us.
• 2:15
  Danyelle: And shout out to our community.
• 2:17
  Michelle: And what a segue, which is that today we are gonna be talking about the breakup nobody talks about.
• 2:26
  Danyelle: The friendship breakup.
• 2:29
  Michelle: You can't not because we've all been through it.
• 2:34
  Danyelle: And they hurt, but friendship endings feel bad.
• 2:39
  Danyelle: And it doesn't feel like they get the space that they need.
• 2:43
  Danyelle: There's those moments when the rupture is unrepairable and there's no ceremony.
• 2:50
  Danyelle: You're left with grief.
• 2:52
  Danyelle: There's no container.
• 2:54
  Danyelle: You're just there.
• 2:55
  Danyelle: No validation.
• 2:57
  Danyelle: This episode is that container.
• 3:02
  Michelle: So excited to be providing it.
• 3:04
  Michelle: The thing that's coming up for me right now when we talk about containers and ceremony is that culturally as well, we don't do a great job with ceremony.
• 3:16
  Michelle: And so I think grief in general is something that goes largely untended.
• 3:20
  Danyelle: I love that we're creating this space because, as you said, I think as a society, grief is not something that is talked about.
• 3:30
  Danyelle: We don't have grounding practices.
• 3:32
  Danyelle: I think there is a lot of indigenous wisdom that is brought in in people's individual lives.
• 3:40
  Danyelle: But as a whole, I would say, like, you know, growing up in the United States, grief is um pushed aside.
• 3:47
  Danyelle: It's dismissed.
• 3:48
  Danyelle: I oftentimes talk about the fact that we get three days bereavement and we're supposed to just say, three days.
• 3:56
  Michelle: And also please prove that it was a person that was close to you before you take that bereavement.
• 4:02
  Michelle: Like truly.
• 4:03
  Danyelle: And what that tells you, right?
• 4:05
  Danyelle: So if if society is collectively giving you three days for a death, a physical body leaving this realm that you have to prove they were close to you, wild behavior.
• 4:16
  Danyelle: Friendship breakups feel so far away from that type of acknowledgement.
• 4:25
  Danyelle: And we wanna, yeah, we want to give it its spotlight.
• 4:29
  Michelle: And any breakup or break in general where the other person is still out there existing, and not only do you know that, but you might still be seeing them either physically out in the world or through social media channels, just knowing that they're living that life without you in it, or vice versa.
• 4:50
  Michelle: And then there's the compounding grief that comes with those experiences that you now have no longer in relationship.
• 4:57
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 4:58
  Danyelle: And I think for romantic relationships, there is a little bit more of a social acceptance of grieving, sadness.
• 5:09
  Danyelle: I know when I've broken up with partners in the past, your friends are there for you, like let's have a girls' night, or I'm gonna bring you ice cream, like whatever that is.
• 5:22
  Danyelle: And yeah, I've had some pretty intense friendship breakups, and they have just happened and gone on.
• 5:31
  Michelle: Let's talk about how the endings actually happen because there's a friendship breakup, but it can look really different, and that can vary by person, by age, and yes, and also cause like what led to the breakup.
• 5:47
  Michelle: Was it just long distance and we grew apart, or was there like a meaningful ending?
• 5:51
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 5:52
  Danyelle: Well, I mean, I think what you're speaking to, we'll talk about a few different types the quiet outgrowing.
• 5:57
  Danyelle: So kind of like there is no fight, there's no like specific moment, it's just a slow kind of separating.
• 6:08
  Danyelle: Maybe that is unrepairable, you know.
• 6:10
  Danyelle: I think back to people and places that I've outgrown.
• 6:14
  Danyelle: I don't want to go back there.
• 6:16
  Danyelle: That does feel unreparable, and there is grief in that.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:21
  Michelle: There's the clean cut where there was some betrayal or knowing.
• 6:27
  Michelle: There's an ending that definitely does have a moment.
• 6:32
  Michelle: And whether or not it was the fight where you discuss that it's ending, or you have a fight where you know there's no coming back from it, and there's some real fire and intensity around that has its own processing, and I think also kind of goes back to that conversation around communication styles and how you approach conflict.
• 6:55
  Michelle: So it's that sort of quiet walking away versus like the full rupture.
• 7:00
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 7:01
  Danyelle: And yeah, I've experienced both.
• 7:04
  Michelle: Yes.
• 7:04
  Danyelle: Yeah, you know, those moments where, as you said, you can't go backwards.
• 7:09
  Michelle: Something is said, something is done, and it doesn't feel like there's a road to return to have you ever had, I know in romantic relationship there's this idea of conscious uncoupling, or you know, we split, but we're co-parenting and raising the kids together.
• 7:29
  Michelle: Have you experienced or heard of a friendship that kind of amicably and thoughtfully ended?
• 7:38
  Michelle: I don't think so.
• 7:39
  Michelle: Is that possible?
• 7:40
  Michelle: Oh, this is good.
• 7:43
  Michelle: Because like if you could reach that conversation together, could you still be friends?
• 7:51
  Michelle: I would say yes.
• 7:54
  Michelle: Interesting.
• 7:55
  Michelle: There's something about if but maybe I don't like where maybe it's like we're not in the same place in our lives any anymore, and but there's still a respect.
• 8:15
  Michelle: I can still see you out in the world, but we've both mutually decided.
• 8:19
  Michelle: It's yeah, normally it's like one-sided.
• 8:22
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 8:22
  Michelle: I mean, it's making me need to know like what is a friendship breakup that happened for you that's coming to mind through this description.
• 8:32
  Danyelle: Yeah, I mean, as I said, there's been more than a few.
• 8:38
  Danyelle: The one that really is coming to mind is this outgrowing.
• 8:42
  Danyelle: Um, I think about becoming more myself.
• 8:47
  Danyelle: And we talked a little bit about this in our race episode of coming into my blackness and my queerness and really just like this radicalized persona.
• 8:57
  Danyelle: I feel like I've always been like that, but I covered a lot.
• 9:01
  Danyelle: And I would say I had a friend group who I was very close with, I did a lot with.
• 9:10
  Danyelle: And yeah, it was just time.
• 9:14
  Danyelle: I didn't feel like I fit them anymore.
• 9:16
  Danyelle: And it was the more that I became myself, the less I became a part of them.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:24
  Danyelle: Right?
• 9:25
  Danyelle: There was no fight, there was no like explosion, there wasn't any even conversation.
• 9:30
  Danyelle: It was just slowly it became quieter and quieter.
• 9:36
  Danyelle: And I will say, you know, lockdowns kind of accelerated.
• 9:42
  Michelle: So you hit the mic with my excitement.
• 9:45
  Michelle: It accelerated.
• 9:46
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 9:47
  Michelle: Or maybe like allowed before the easing out.
• 9:52
  Danyelle: Say that again.
• 9:54
  Danyelle: Um, yeah, right.
• 9:56
  Danyelle: I do, yes, there was an allowing because well, we couldn't go outside.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: And oh, I can't make it my favorite words.
• 10:09
  Michelle: You would actually love having a kid then.
• 10:12
  Michelle: Oh my gosh.
• 10:13
  Michelle: Yes.
• 10:14
  Michelle: Continue.
• 10:15
  Michelle: That's I can't go.
• 10:16
  Danyelle: Michelle's daughter is sick.
• 10:19
  Danyelle: My nibblings need me.
• 10:21
  Danyelle: Um confirmed.
• 10:23
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 10:24
  Danyelle: But yeah, you know, I I think there was an allowing because we couldn't go outside.
• 10:29
  Danyelle: There was the restrictions and regulations, and I do think it probably would have become time, even without that built-in pause that we all collectively had.
• 10:43
  Danyelle: I was moving closer to my center.
• 10:47
  Danyelle: I was becoming the person I am now, and I I was becoming a more fuller self.
• 10:55
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 10:56
  Danyelle: And I don't think that those people could hold that.
• 11:03
  Michelle: It's interesting to be having this conversation after the nonviolent communication and the race episode, right?
• 11:10
  Michelle: Because when we do make these sort of judgments based on years of experience, oftentimes, of can this person join me on this journey?
• 11:20
  Michelle: And is it worth my investment and what I would have to hold to bring them along?
• 11:24
  Michelle: And sometimes the answer is no.
• 11:26
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 11:27
  Michelle: And there isn't the fight or the huge rupture.
• 11:31
  Michelle: And likewise, maybe the fight or the rupture would have come, or the conversation at least, the conscious uncoupling, if it's possible, if they had asked, hey, where are you?
• 11:44
  Michelle: I miss our friendship.
• 11:45
  Michelle: I value that.
• 11:46
  Michelle: But the fact that it slowly drifted on both sides then kind of answers it for you.
• 11:52
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 11:53
  Danyelle: I will say, or did they?
• 11:55
  Danyelle: Well, I was gonna say, so you know, I moved back to San Francisco about a year ago, and I did get a lunch invite from one of them.
• 12:05
  Danyelle: And quintessential me.
• 12:09
  Danyelle: I was like, yeah, yeah, and then didn't go.
• 12:11
  Danyelle: I will own that as something that I continue to work on.
• 12:13
  Danyelle: I will take accountability publicly in front of all of you.
• 12:26
  Danyelle: That was so good.
• 12:27
  Danyelle: Okay, not your part.
• 12:31
  Danyelle: Okay, but now this is gonna happen sometimes.
• 12:34
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 12:35
  Danyelle: Yeah, because my body immediately was like, nah, son, like, no, absolutely not.
• 12:43
  Danyelle: And what are we gonna talk about?
• 12:46
  Danyelle: I am black AF, I am queer AF, I am a hoodoo, I'm a witch, I talk to the moon, I talk to the ocean, and like that is me, and that's always been me.
• 12:59
  Danyelle: And I don't think that that's you, and that's okay.
• 13:03
  Danyelle: We don't have to pretend.
• 13:08
  Michelle: What I am loving about this conversation as I launch into the one that comes up for me is I was on the other side of the friendship that dissipated without a conversation.
• 13:21
  Michelle: Um, the one that I'm thinking of was high school, where you feel things so big and so deep.
• 13:28
  Michelle: And again, your worldview is so self-centered, frankly, that it's hard to really understand that this feeling doesn't last forever.
• 13:38
  Michelle: And because I had never been in a relationship, God, how old was I?
• 13:41
  Michelle: Like 16 or 17.
• 13:43
  Michelle: I had never been in a romantic relationship.
• 13:45
  Michelle: I hadn't experienced a breakup like that.
• 13:48
  Michelle: Uh, like the ones that kind of like rock your physical and emotional world.
• 13:53
  Michelle: But I had, as you've mentioned, I had capacity for multiple, like what I would consider best friends.
• 13:59
  Michelle: I think I had two or three.
• 14:01
  Michelle: And one of them, I think I was at her house.
• 14:04
  Michelle: I mean, I had at times a tough family situation, and so I really relied on my friends to sort of hold me through that.
• 14:12
  Michelle: And so I spent the night at her house quite a lot.
• 14:16
  Michelle: We hung out all the time at school.
• 14:18
  Michelle: I we were talking every day, you know, it like that kind of a bestie.
• 14:23
  Michelle: And then there was a new gal who joined our friend group via her brother's best friend, and they were dating or something, and she and I didn't drive well.
• 14:36
  Michelle: And it's so funny to like try and even think about what happened.
• 14:40
  Michelle: It I mean, to this day, I still don't actually know.
• 14:43
  Michelle: Like, I had a hard time with this new person entering the group, and like we just didn't mesh, and I didn't see how she fit.
• 14:51
  Michelle: And then, yeah, my bestie just stopped talking to me.
• 14:58
  Michelle: And it was what to me felt abrupt, but it was ignoring me in the hallways, no longer answering my calls.
• 15:06
  Michelle: Did we have text yet?
• 15:07
  Michelle: We were like on the brink of text messages, maybe, but it was like a total rejection of the relationship, but also of my physical body, like would not share space with me.
• 15:19
  Michelle: And what's interesting is I remember sitting in my car at the top of Spyglass Hill and sitting with my mom, but I think she had picked me up from school after a particularly hard day, and I was full body heaving, crying.
• 15:38
  Michelle: I just felt so hurt, so confused.
• 15:41
  Michelle: And I just remember thinking, like, why won't she even talk to me or tell me what I did wrong?
• 15:46
  Michelle: And this woman walked by, which was interesting because when you live up on a hill that high, believe me, there's not a lot of strangers walking around because I don't even want to walk up that hill.
• 15:56
  Michelle: Nobody does.
• 15:57
  Michelle: The number of times.
• 15:58
  Michelle: No.
• 15:58
  Michelle: But this woman walked by who I'd never seen before, and she reached through my car window and handed me a little plastic kaleidoscope.
• 16:07
  Michelle: And she said something about I don't know that I'll I'll do it justice, but that there's beauty that it's gonna change.
• 16:19
  Michelle: Like that you can look through a different lens and something beautiful will be on the other side.
• 16:23
  Michelle: And then she walked away and I never saw her again.
• 16:26
  Danyelle: Michelle was always a witch.
• 16:28
  Michelle: She contains or like attracted or something.
• 16:32
  Michelle: I didn't know this story.
• 16:33
  Michelle: Sort of snapped me out of that.
• 16:34
  Michelle: Yeah, I think I didn't really know how to make sense of it, and even now that's why I'm pausing telling it.
• 16:39
  Michelle: But it was this offering of a hand because you're so in it, especially as a young person.
• 16:48
  Michelle: It's a person offering you a reminder that there's something on the other side, some sort of learning that of course I couldn't understand at the time.
• 16:58
  Michelle: But I think that's what I mean, that's what we started with as we created this container is what does that look like to hold space for grief?
• 17:07
  Michelle: And also how do you come out of it?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 17:10
  Danyelle: Mm-hmm.
• 17:14
  Danyelle: I am still sitting with your earth angel.
• 17:18
  Danyelle: Um I know.
• 17:19
  Michelle: My mom too, to the state, she was like, No, that was an angel.
• 17:22
  Michelle: I was like, I mean, it was just a lady walking by.
• 17:24
  Michelle: She was like, No, no, why did she have a plastic, the little kaleidoscope for me to look through and see something beautiful?
• 17:31
  Danyelle: The thing that comes up for me as you're talking and sitting with this kind of acknowledgement.
• 17:37
  Danyelle: You're sitting in the car, you're so deeply in it, and this earth angel comes and sees you, literally, right?
• 17:46
  Danyelle: I think obviously that is a big that is a third thing ism to be seen.
• 17:53
  Danyelle: They see the ability to feel acknowledged.
• 17:59
  Danyelle: One of the things that we we've been kind of thinking about is this idea of disenfranchised grief.
• 18:06
  Danyelle: And I actually heard it from a client for the first time a few months ago.
• 18:11
  Danyelle: And in sitting with this question, it came up again.
• 18:14
  Danyelle: And this idea of grief that is dismissed or pushed aside, not validated in society, marginalized, absolutely.
• 18:23
  Danyelle: And I think about this as in experience of having friendship breakups and it having space and then very quickly going away.
• 18:36
  Danyelle: And you know, I'm I'm just thinking about this moment for you of really what it felt like for somebody to pause and say, like, yes, it will be okay, but I'm also witnessing your pain.
• 18:49
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 18:50
  Michelle: And there's an image, I don't know how widely consumed it is, but it's sort of like instead of being at the top of the whole shouting down into the dark space and saying it's gonna be okay, it's like crawling down and sitting with you.
• 19:04
  Michelle: Yes, holding that space together.
• 19:07
  Michelle: Um, that is so helpful when it comes to any sort of grief or depression or whatever to just feel witnessed.
• 19:18
  Michelle: And now that I'm an adult and I look back, I think so much of some of that young pain and the lack of communication skills is around I'm no longer seeing this friendship as supportive to me for whatever reason.
• 19:35
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 19:36
  Michelle: Andor you're too much, you know, which was what I heard so many times growing up.
• 19:43
  Michelle: And I don't know how to communicate that without hurting you in a way that anyone feels safe.
• 19:49
  Michelle: And so I'm just going to avoid you.
• 19:51
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 19:52
  Michelle: And actually, that's the kindest thing that I can do.
• 19:55
  Michelle: And so I don't know that I could have heard any reason that would have satisfied why you don't want to be friends with me anymore.
• 20:02
  Michelle: How can you really have that conversation in a way that isn't painful, especially when it's one-sided?
• 20:08
  Michelle: Because truly, when it is mutual, you do sort of just grow apart and it and then that's okay.
• 20:13
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 20:14
  Michelle: But when there's a confrontation, it is usually one-sided.
• 20:17
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Danyelle: Well, I think what you're speaking to is avoidance.
• 20:20
  Danyelle: And this is something that feels very present for me.
• 20:24
  Danyelle: Shout out to my therapist.
• 20:26
  Danyelle: I've been joking that I was today years old when I found out I was avoidant.
• 20:31
  Danyelle: And everybody in my life is just like, girl, we're so sorry for you.
• 20:36
  Danyelle: And I was like, what?
• 20:36
  Danyelle: I just I'm so confrontated.
• 20:38
  Danyelle: Anyways, two things can be true at the same time.
• 20:42
  Danyelle: I think in this case, the avoidance is coming from lived experienced because of age.
• 20:50
  Danyelle: And as somebody who's 41, avoidance sometimes for me, in the moment, maybe not long term, can be easier.
• 21:00
  Danyelle: It is hard to say the thing.
• 21:03
  Danyelle: And so when you have these moments where all of a sudden there's, you know, like what happened, and you don't know, I have been seeing this avoidance piece in a different way of what is happening for them, that it's so big in their body that whether they don't have the capacity, they don't have the language, that it can't be a conversation.
• 21:28
  Danyelle: You can't utilize your compassionate communication skills to say, hey, this isn't working, or um, you know, this is this, this something needs to change.
• 21:40
  Danyelle: And I think this is what differs so much from romantic relationships and platonic love, is because in romantic relationships, there is an expectation.
• 21:49
  Danyelle: Obviously, ghosting is huge, but I will say there is something about yes, we're dating, we're in community, we're doing these things together.
• 22:00
  Danyelle: And it's significantly harder to just walk away than it is in a friendship.
• 22:05
  Danyelle: I think in romantic relationships, there's this we'll we'll have a conversation or something, but there's almost an okayness around letting friendships go.
• 22:19
  Danyelle: And again, I will say that as somebody who is, you know, today years old and avoidant and has allowed that okayness to justify walking away.
• 22:31
  Michelle: It's interesting because I have the benefit of knowing so many of the situations and sometimes not only safer and just supportive to whatever you're going through in that moment, to not face the confrontation and breathe life into it because sometimes you know that if you do talk it out, you might be able to come to an understanding and maybe you just don't want to make that investment if that can be honored.
• 22:54
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Michelle: But yeah, I think you made such a great point about romantic relationships, especially when you're sharing space.
• 23:00
  Michelle: You're going to either be physically around each other and naturally repair because you have to do life together, or you have to have that breakup conversation because I will be physically removing my body and my things.
• 23:13
  Michelle: Um, and you always hear that word, like I need closure.
• 23:16
  Michelle: And even after the breakup, you might need again to sort of rehash.
• 23:20
  Michelle: I mean, frankly, after being laid off, I was like, I need to, it would be very helpful for me if you kind of put the dots together because I know this isn't about performance, quote unquote.
• 23:31
  Michelle: And so, like, talk talk that through, and it does help you assess the situation without as much judgment because otherwise, what happens is you start to self-blame.
• 23:43
  Michelle: I wasn't good enough, I was too much, I could have done better, they hate me.
• 23:48
  Michelle: I mean, I especially in my younger years, also attached a lot to how I looked because that was sort of reinforced like hello, heroin cheek 90s, which is now GLP1 2020.
• 24:02
  Michelle: Oh.
• 24:02
  Michelle: But I really felt like my worth as a human, as a friend, as a person in relationship was very attached to how I looked or my coolness.
• 24:15
  Michelle: And so I want to kind of talk about how we deal with grief and like what are some of our tools and rituals when it might lend itself towards self-harm.
• 24:26
  Danyelle: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:27
  Danyelle: I think one thing that is super important to start with is naming it, right?
• 24:33
  Danyelle: If we are saying that friendship breakups is the breakup we're not talking about, we have to acknowledge it.
• 24:40
  Danyelle: We have to name it, we have to give it that space.
• 24:44
  Danyelle: And for me as a therapist, again, an ism, sitting in it, sitting in that acknowledgement is how we get through, how we are taking it off the shelf and saying, This hurts.
• 24:59
  Danyelle: I feel lost, I feel confused, I feel sadness that this person is no longer in my life.
• 25:07
  Danyelle: Being able to give it the weight it deserves.
• 25:10
  Danyelle: For me, that is a number one tool that is accessible and something that people can do today.
• 25:17
  Danyelle: Being able to think about a breakup, a friendship breakup that you've had, that maybe you've put on the shelf.
• 25:24
  Danyelle: Maybe you have just kind of said, well, you know, but you still hold some of that grief, that sadness.
• 25:32
  Danyelle: It's unprocessed in your body.
• 25:34
  Danyelle: Moving that is so important.
• 25:36
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 25:37
  Michelle: I know many of us have either heard of or read or seen the clips around the body keeps the score.
• 25:44
  Michelle: But one of the very painful lessons that I've learned as an adult is that the only way out is through.
• 25:50
  Michelle: And so sometimes you do genuinely, even just because of bandwidth, and I can't cry my way through work and I'm not getting bereavement for this loss, that I don't have the I haven't created the space to truly feel it.
• 26:02
  Michelle: And maybe I'm masking that with food or alcohol or distraction or TV.
• 26:08
  Michelle: Maybe it's what other people might consider positive.
• 26:11
  Michelle: I'm working out, I'm just finding, I'm reading a lot, I'm finding ways to dissociate, to distract.
• 26:17
  Michelle: And honestly, first of all, I want to say that's okay because it's you taking care of yourself with whatever your resources are.
• 26:28
  Michelle: And what I want to offer is that there are other tools when you're ready to name it and move through that emotion and allow yourself to feel it, making sure that you're in that safe space, harm reduction, you know, like where can I ask for help?
• 26:42
  Michelle: Can I take a day off of work, a sick day, a mental health day?
• 26:46
  Michelle: And one of the things that I did actually very recently was I I write letters, letters that I never send.
• 26:52
  Michelle: I mean, I wrote a letter to one of my best friends who passed away from the impact of anorexia.
• 27:00
  Michelle: And even though I was deeply sad and I love love her so much, I was really mad.
• 27:07
  Michelle: And being able to sit with that emotion and allow myself to have it and write her a letter that really came from the heart and where I was allowed to say all the things that you're not allowed to say was very healing and cathartic for me.
• 27:22
  Michelle: And I think is an underutilized tool.
• 27:24
  Michelle: And I'm gonna say it again, you have to write it with your hands.
• 27:28
  Michelle: There's something about that flow from like head to heart to hand that really allows for this release for me.
• 27:34
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 27:35
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 27:36
  Danyelle: And getting it out of your body.
• 27:39
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 27:40
  Danyelle: Somatics has changed both of us.
• 27:43
  Danyelle: Being connected, understanding and learning about somatics is has changed my life.
• 27:47
  Michelle: And um just quickly, somatics, the way you experience emotion in your body.
• 27:52
  Danyelle: Yeah, I I oftentimes think of it as our body is constantly giving us messages and it's attuning to that.
• 28:00
  Danyelle: I used to have headaches all the time, and I just ignored them, basically.
• 28:06
  Danyelle: I would just take Advil all the time.
• 28:09
  Danyelle: And then one day I was like, maybe I should, you know, attune to my body and these headaches that I'm having.
• 28:16
  Danyelle: Somatics was that attunement, helped me get to that attunement.
• 28:21
  Danyelle: And so this idea of writing letters, using your body, moving that energy, it does really create space.
• 28:32
  Danyelle: I also will add water to tools that can be really helpful.
• 28:40
  Danyelle: Thinking about what are the ways that we release into the water.
• 28:45
  Danyelle: Water holds the shape that it's in.
• 28:48
  Danyelle: And so it can hold a lot.
• 28:50
  Danyelle: Going to the ocean, the lake, even your shower, and just releasing that out of your body, being able to say, This is my grief.
• 28:59
  Danyelle: I'm honoring it, and I'm ready to let go.
• 29:01
  Danyelle: I'm ready to give it to something else.
• 29:04
  Danyelle: I think that's also a really beautiful friendship ending, really any ending.
• 29:09
  Michelle: Any ending.
• 29:10
  Michelle: And I think it's a bit of a shift in the framing of how you respond to something that is quote unquote broken because so many of us want to fix.
• 29:23
  Michelle: Uh, yes.
• 29:24
  Michelle: And oh my god, I hurt you even, you know, when I was younger, and I wanted to know why, and I could make it better, and I can apologize.
• 29:33
  Michelle: And coming into maturity and that it's not always your job to fix it, maybe that person isn't in a place of maturity, maybe it's not the right fit.
• 29:44
  Michelle: And so one of the first steps for someone like me who wants to fix and solve is to again acknowledge the loss and let that be okay without self-blaming.
• 29:59
  Michelle: And then once that's there, you can step into these processes of grief.
• 30:05
  Michelle: I know that you've mentioned to me before, is it a cutting?
• 30:10
  Michelle: Oh, cut and clear.
• 30:11
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 30:11
  Danyelle: Can you tell me about that?
• 30:12
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 30:13
  Danyelle: It's one of my favorite rituals.
• 30:16
  Danyelle: And for me, as a hoodoo, as a witch, as a magical being, we don't just live in our physical bodies.
• 30:27
  Danyelle: I oftentimes, sometimes, I oftentimes we'll say meat suit.
• 30:31
  Danyelle: Shout out to Jessica Lineado, borrowing that from her.
• 30:35
  Danyelle: We exist in energy.
• 30:37
  Danyelle: You know, we laugh about it all the time in the sense of like when we're together and she's thinking something and I say it out loud.
• 30:44
  Danyelle: We exist in energy.
• 30:45
  Danyelle: It's always around us.
• 30:46
  Danyelle: And those energetic connections don't end in the 3D realm in our meat suits when we just stop talking to somebody.
• 30:54
  Danyelle: And so a cut and clear is a way that you can energetically cut the ties that we are connected to.
• 31:02
  Danyelle: And so a release.
• 31:04
  Danyelle: It's a release.
• 31:05
  Danyelle: It's a release.
• 31:06
  Danyelle: I think cut and clears are great to do with people that are no longer in our lives or people we no longer want in our lives because it creates again, it creates that space.
• 31:17
  Danyelle: It creates space for what else should be there, what else can be there.
• 31:21
  Danyelle: When we are holding on to this unprocessed grief, it sticks in our body.
• 31:26
  Danyelle: And that spiritually doesn't allow for us to receive.
• 31:32
  Danyelle: It's taxing.
• 31:33
  Danyelle: I think it also blocks our blessings.
• 31:35
  Danyelle: It doesn't allow for us to grow.
• 31:37
  Danyelle: If I am still stuck in 2000, what am I missing?
• 31:43
  Danyelle: Because I'm there.
• 31:44
  Danyelle: And so a cut and clear is something that you can do to allow yourself to release on multiple layers, energetic layers.
• 31:54
  Michelle: What does it look like?
• 31:55
  Michelle: And can you do it yourself, or does someone need to join you?
• 31:58
  Danyelle: You can absolutely do it yourself.
• 32:00
  Danyelle: Um, I recommend doing it yourself.
• 32:02
  Danyelle: I'm gonna have like 10 of these in a row.
• 32:04
  Danyelle: I mean cut it.
• 32:07
  Danyelle: She's not.
• 32:09
  Danyelle: Um my last cut and clear had three candles to one.
• 32:13
  Danyelle: I was like, we're done.
• 32:15
  Danyelle: Oh yeah.
• 32:15
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 32:16
  Danyelle: Um, so yeah, I do it with fire energy.
• 32:19
  Danyelle: So candle magic.
• 32:21
  Danyelle: I'm taking one candle with your name on it, one candle with the other person's name on it.
• 32:27
  Danyelle: I typically like to use a white candle for myself and then a colored candle that represents the relationship.
• 32:34
  Danyelle: Um, and that could just be any color intuitively for you.
• 32:38
  Danyelle: And then you can take any string.
• 32:40
  Danyelle: My favorite string to use is floss.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 32:42
  Danyelle: I know it's it just burns really nicely.
• 32:45
  Danyelle: Don't use anything that has a high heat resistance because it won't burn correctly.
• 32:50
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 32:50
  Danyelle: Ask me how I know.
• 32:51
  Danyelle: Yeah, we know.
• 32:52
  Danyelle: Um and you know, I I, you know, I said in the intro, I love to do magic and thinking about this under a full moon.
• 33:03
  Danyelle: Full moons are great for banishment, for releasing, for giving away.
• 33:08
  Danyelle: But you can really, you know, you can do this when you feel called.
• 33:12
  Danyelle: You take that string, you tie two loops on each side, and then hang the loops over the tops of the candles.
• 33:19
  Danyelle: You can add any types of salt or herbs, anointing oils, which, you know, most of us already have in our house.
• 33:29
  Danyelle: So rosemary, bay leaves, salt, black pepper, cayenne.
• 33:35
  Danyelle: So things that are gonna help depending on what you're what you're trying to evoke, what you're trying to conjure.
• 33:41
  Danyelle: And then just light those candles and allow them to burn.
• 33:44
  Danyelle: You want to set the intention internally, maybe say something around releasing in love, releasing and wishing that person well.
• 33:55
  Danyelle: Sometimes that's hard.
• 33:56
  Danyelle: Sometimes it takes time for us to get there.
• 33:58
  Danyelle: You don't always have to say that, but I'm a big proponent of honoring the relationship as it where it was and what it was for, and then creating that space in sweetness.
• 34:10
  Michelle: Yeah, because I think so many of us know that there were relationships that were there for that time, for that purpose, for who you were in that moment.
• 34:19
  Michelle: And some of them grow with you.
• 34:21
  Michelle: Uh, and you know, we've talked about this that there were periods where we didn't know how close we would stay, and then we just kept finding each other again.
• 34:30
  Michelle: But not every relationship has that capacity, not every person does.
• 34:35
  Michelle: And so, how can you honor and be grateful for the lessons for the relationship that you did have while also releasing?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:43
  Michelle: I'm curious as we talk about friendship breakups and both kind of for me being more on the receiving end of somebody breaking up with me and you being the breaker upper, how do you know whether to have the conversation or not, or when it's time to walk away?
• 35:01
  Michelle: Is there like a permission to end?
• 35:05
  Danyelle: I mean, I'm gonna always go back to finding your internal yeses and your internal no's.
• 35:12
  Danyelle: That's your North Star.
• 35:14
  Danyelle: I think there is a body knowing before a mind knowing often.
• 35:19
  Danyelle: And that has been really helpful for me.
• 35:22
  Danyelle: I don't know that there's a set thing that says, when this happens, this means the end.
• 35:29
  Danyelle: Right.
• 35:30
  Danyelle: It's about understanding who you are and what's the impact of that friendship.
• 35:37
  Danyelle: For us, as you said, we've had dances with friendship breakups, and we've had periods of time where we were less close.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 35:48
  Danyelle: Um, but we always did find our way back to each other.
• 35:51
  Danyelle: And for me, right, that is checking in.
• 35:54
  Danyelle: I and I will say, like, probably more in the last 10 years of checking in with my body around it's still a guest, right?
• 36:00
  Danyelle: But do that for yourself.
• 36:02
  Danyelle: You know, how do you feel when you hang out with the person?
• 36:07
  Danyelle: That was a big reason why I walked away from my friend group.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 36:12
  Danyelle: Because I I did not feel energized, excited.
• 36:16
  Danyelle: I felt drained, I felt exhausted because of the mental work I was doing internally to fit a certain way or to be less me.
• 36:26
  Michelle: Okay, you might hate this, but this is a great example of our differences.
• 36:32
  Michelle: I'm so ready.
• 36:33
  Michelle: I was reading the bullet journal method, read it front to back.
• 36:38
  Michelle: I just wanted a way to like be journaling, but I sometimes feel overwhelmed by not having a container.
• 36:43
  Michelle: I can feel overwhelmed by a blank page.
• 36:46
  Michelle: Okay.
• 36:48
  Michelle: Fine.
• 36:49
  Danyelle: It's not bad.
• 36:50
  Michelle: But it like read me for both because here I am reading a bullet journal, and it asked you to every time you spend time with somebody to reflect even for one sentence on how you felt afterwards.
• 37:03
  Michelle: And what you might find is that you go back to the last several meetings and you're like, oh, I'm very drained by that person, or they don't really provide a ton of space for me to share.
• 37:14
  Michelle: And you might learn something that you're not quite attuned to in that moment, or you're so ingrained or used to that dynamic that it's not novel enough to flag.
• 37:25
  Michelle: So it different ways to the same, to the same result, which is connecting your body to your mind enough to bring it to the forefront and allowing yourself to lead with like what is going to help me be the best version of myself.
• 37:43
  Michelle: And I think many of us who have some trauma in our backgrounds learned to ignore our needs because they were ignored by our caregivers or the people who were meant to protect us.
• 37:57
  Michelle: And so part of the work that we get to, if you choose, is to be the protector for our inner child that doesn't want to go.
• 38:09
  Michelle: We had to put on clothes we didn't want to, and we had to go be in spaces we didn't want to.
• 38:14
  Michelle: We had to hug people we didn't want to, and then we just keep treating ourselves that way because that's how we learned.
• 38:22
  Michelle: And so it's that moment as an adult to acknowledge that you do have this autonomy to let go.
• 38:29
  Michelle: And I think that you don't frankly have to have a reason to create space.
• 38:35
  Michelle: And with some of the frameworks that we've talked about and the tools we've talked about, you might choose to offer that person a reason or have a closing conversation, or you might let it slowly drift if that's more protective.
• 38:49
  Michelle: For me, I think a friendship like ours that's been through so much, I'd like to think that it would deserve a like a weekend.
• 38:59
  Michelle: Yeah, we literally have to work it out.
• 39:01
  Michelle: Um, you know, but but that's a big part of why we kept working through it is because we've been witnesses to each other's lives for so long that that it did even in our worst moments felt worth coming back to and revisiting.
• 39:16
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 39:17
  Danyelle: I think what you're speaking to is a layer of safety.
• 39:20
  Danyelle: And you can have differences, you can be authentically you and your friends be authentically them, and that be okay.
• 39:31
  Danyelle: And if at any point it is no longer okay, if you are feeling like you, you know, safety across the spectrum, like this doesn't feel good in my body is a layer of unsafe.
• 39:44
  Danyelle: Walk away.
• 39:46
  Danyelle: Sometimes that is the best thing you can do for yourself.
• 39:50
  Danyelle: When you spoke about your your inner child or the inner child, um, yeah, our inner children do need tending.
• 39:58
  Danyelle: And the ways in which reparenting, parenting ourselves, reparenting ourselves can be really healing, allowing yourself to give you what you need then and now.
• 40:13
  Michelle: Such a way, such a strong way to improve your relationship with yourself.
• 40:19
  Michelle: Because when you have self-trust, that when I say this doesn't make me feel good, and then I listen to that feeling, I'm then reinforcing that I can trust myself and then the world is your oyster.
• 40:34
  Michelle: I mean, yes.
• 40:35
  Michelle: And to sort of put a pretty bow on this whole conversation, it's that regardless of the disenfranchised grief of it all, that we get to name that friendship relationships are impactful in a way that can be physically painful and emotionally painful when you go through breakup, regardless of which side you're on.
• 40:58
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 40:58
  Michelle: And that naming that and allowing yourself the opportunity to move through it, offering grace through the moments where you're not ready to face it.
• 41:10
  Michelle: And then creating ritual around that grief and loss can be a really powerful way to both honor the relationship that you had and also release so that you can move forward.
• 41:23
  Danyelle: I love this so much.
• 41:25
  Danyelle: And I think it's important to just name one more time.
• 41:30
  Danyelle: It is sad, it is hard.
• 41:33
  Danyelle: I'm thinking about it from what you just said because you the way that you said it was like it doesn't matter which side you're on.
• 41:40
  Danyelle: And what immediately came flooding into my body was like, oh yeah, like I do miss parts of those relationships.
• 41:47
  Danyelle: There are these moments that did bring me a lot of joy, and maybe those became fewer and far between, but like it is sad.
• 41:58
  Danyelle: There's grief, and so acknowledge that grief.
• 42:02
  Danyelle: Feel your feelings, don't allow yourself to push it aside because society might say it's not as big or not as important.
• 42:11
  Michelle: Well, and grief is inconvenient.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna let that sit there.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: More on grief later.
• 42:21
  Michelle: Anything else that percolated or rose to the top for you?
• 42:25
  Michelle: Or I mean it sounds like you kind of just Yeah, yeah.
• 42:29
  Danyelle: Um it yeah, it is that.
• 42:31
  Danyelle: I think it doesn't matter what side you're on, and this is why we named this episode the the breakup nobody talks about.
• 42:40
  Danyelle: The thing that is, you know, percolating or you know, rising to the top is wow, we go through life, we have these people who feel like staples, who feel like forever, and then we don't, there's no pomp and circumstance around it.
• 42:57
  Danyelle: Um I feel grateful that we continue to find each other.
• 43:05
  Danyelle: And frankly, I feel grateful for the people in my life who were present and aren't anymore.
• 43:12
  Danyelle: I, you know, I do feel like I am in a place to to honor a lot of those friendships that are no longer because of the work that I've done, because I've given it the space.
• 43:24
  Michelle: I like that friendship is just such a rich topic to play in because we get to pull in all of these elements of inner child work and ritual and your body keeping the score and somatics.
• 43:40
  Michelle: There's so much space to play as we talk about specifically friendship relationships and how special they are.
• 43:48
  Michelle: And then I think the other side is how painful it can be when it's no longer aligned.
• 43:55
  Michelle: So I liked being able to sort of interweave all of that into this conversation.
• 44:01
  Michelle: Juicy.
• 44:02
  Michelle: Juicy.
• 44:04
  Michelle: You know, we're gonna break out into song at any moment.
• 44:07
  Michelle: Any moment.
• 44:08
  Michelle: As we wrap up the episode, the invitation for you is to check in with your body and think about some of the close relationships in your life and where there may be some misalignment and that could use some tending.
• 44:26
  Michelle: I'm not telling you to go break up with your friends unless that feels right for you.
• 44:30
  Michelle: And sometimes that might be the right thing.
• 44:32
  Michelle: I think it's more of an invitation to check in.
• 44:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 44:36
  Michelle: And are there places where you are ignoring those parts of you that are saying, I don't want to be here?
• 44:45
  Michelle: And how can you honor that?
• 44:46
  Michelle: Whether it's by resting when you need it, asking for something that you need, can we meet closer to my house, etc.?
• 44:56
  Michelle: Do you need more connection?
• 44:58
  Michelle: Or is it time to release in some way?
• 45:02
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 45:03
  Danyelle: There's something about explicitly naming you're allowed to trust your body.
• 45:08
  Danyelle: You're allowed to trust your yeses and no's.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: Again, feel your feelings.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: It hurts.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna feel my feelings.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: All day.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Will you please pull a card for us?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: I will.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Friendship breakups.
• 45:34
  Danyelle: Okay, I'm gonna pull his two cards.
• 45:37
  Danyelle: Um I'm gonna read them both upright.
• 45:41
  Danyelle: Feels right.
• 45:43
  Danyelle: So we've got two, two, two.
• 45:46
  Danyelle: So we've got the devil and the strength card.
• 45:49
  Danyelle: The devil came up on top, and the strength card was bottom of the deck.
• 45:52
  Danyelle: Bottom of the deck at my table is an additional layer of energy, the underlying energy, if you will, which I think plays so sweetly.
• 46:02
  Danyelle: The double card to me is the ability to make your own way.
• 46:08
  Danyelle: It is really speaking about the ways in which we get tied to the status quo.
• 46:14
  Danyelle: We get tied to the things that we think we're supposed to be doing, the things that might be driving us in good ways and not so good ways.
• 46:24
  Danyelle: They could be vices, they could also just be, I'm supposed to have a wife and kids and a picket, white picket fence.
• 46:33
  Danyelle: The double card is really coming to you to name that you get to pick your way, that you don't have to be puppeted through.
• 46:40
  Danyelle: And I think as we talk about friendship breakup, there's something really loud about not allowing yourself to be tied, literally tied to other people and their stuff.
• 46:55
  Danyelle: And that if it's not working, you can let it go.
• 46:58
  Danyelle: If it's not working, again, one of the greatest things that you can do for yourself is walk away.
• 47:03
  Danyelle: In the card, the devil has the two figures literally tied together.
• 47:09
  Danyelle: And so it's this you don't get to choose.
• 47:12
  Danyelle: And something that's so important is choice.
• 47:16
  Michelle: I love this too because this like chain almost to me looks like the string that's burning between the candles.
• 47:25
  Michelle: Yeah, that's what I it looks like two candles.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, which well, you pulled it.
• 47:32
  unknown: It's hard.
• 47:33
  Danyelle: But the thing that I think is so important is coming back to your strength.
• 47:38
  Danyelle: And this is quiet strength.
• 47:40
  Danyelle: This is taming all that tried to take you out.
• 47:44
  Danyelle: And I think coupled with the devil card, if the double card is allowing you to acknowledge a name where things aren't working, the strength card is what's pulling you through.
• 47:55
  Danyelle: Anytime I see the infinity sign in tarot, to me, it is really highlighting that life is cyclical.
• 48:02
  Danyelle: And if we're not ready to learn a lesson today, we will be back for better or worse.
• 48:08
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 48:09
  Danyelle: Allowing yourself to know it is at your timing, it is at your pacing.
• 48:16
  Danyelle: Friendships are complex, as humans are complex.
• 48:22
  Danyelle: And I think what these two cards really are saying loudly about this episode is in that complexity, still come back to your center.
• 48:32
  Danyelle: Right.
• 48:34
  Danyelle: Gorgeous.
• 48:35
  Danyelle: Amazing.
• 48:36
  Danyelle: We'll see you next week.
• 48:38
  Danyelle: Bye.
• 48:40
  Michelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 48:43
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at The Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 48:52
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 48:54
  Danyelle: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 49:02
  Danyelle: The link is in the show notes.
• 49:04
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 49:10
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.