Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / Leadership Starts in the Back of the Ambulance at 3 A.M. — Steve Cohen

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Leadership Starts in the Back of the Ambulance at 3 A.M. — Steve Cohen · Dispatched & Dysfunctional

• Chris Stockton: Stop counting. All right. All right. So I've been looking forward to this one. ⁓ today's guest is Steve Cohen. And before we get into his titles, years, podcasts, leadership roles, and all the other bullshit people usually throw out there, ⁓ to make them sounds big and important. Steve's been around this field long enough to see EMS from the dawn of every damn angle. ⁓ he's been a street medic, he's been on the truck, he's been in operations, leadership. Me and him are actually just discussing education. ⁓ he's trained and he's doing a podcast, Medic to Medic, which is in a very ⁓ amazing podcast as well. ⁓ he's been in the back of the ambulance all the way to going to make the back of the ambulance actually work for us at three o'clock in the morning. ⁓ right there is why I want this conversation to happen today because this show talks about the calls, the trauma, the burnout and the weird shit we carry home. But today I want to talk about talk with somebody who's watched the system change, watched the peoples change, and hasn't forgot what it's started as. ⁓ so anyway, but Steve, before we get into all the official stuff, who are you really and what made this conversation say yes to happen? Steve Cohen: Well, Chris, thanks for all those kind words. ⁓ I don't I don't even know how to respond to that. Yes, I have been an EMS a long time, and we'll get into how I got into it, but I've seen a lot of changes. and the ⁓ ability of what I see today versus when I first started. Yes, the technology, the medicine's gotten much better. ⁓ what I do see is that The you're still using EMS currently as a stepping stone to go to nursing school, PA school and medical school. Nothing wrong with that. More power to you. ⁓ I don't know, for me EMS has been a great career. Still is a great career for me. ⁓ actually this is my new job at Denver Health. ⁓ it's the first time I'm ⁓ really associated with an EMS service in my ⁓ forty ⁓ plus years in the field. Kind of felt weird at EMS week. though Denver Health has ⁓ Denver Health paramedics, so I was able to see a few and say happy EMS week made me feel good, but yeah, it's it's it's been weird for me to to kind of not be associated with an EMS service ⁓ first you know since I've doing it, you know, since well, like I say, forty plus years. Chris Stockton: Yeah, that'd feel a little bit odd. That that that might be a little strange. Steve Cohen: But I will say, ⁓ I am now a licensed paramedic in the state of Colorado. Chris Stockton: Wait. Steve Cohen: Yeah, it's and people say ask me, Why are you doing that? You don't need it for your job. Yeah, becoming a EMT, becoming a paramedic was so important to me. ⁓ I wanna continue to do that. I'm hoping to hopefully get on an ambulance or do some kind of patient care, either in a hospital or whatever it may be as a medic somewhere down the line once I get established here in Denver. But yeah, it's it's still important. Yeah, I still have my national registry for over thirty plus years as well. I still do my con ed. It's still important to me. I s I love being a paramedic. I love taking care of people and that's why I continue to hold the certification. Eventually I'll probably have to let it go, but right now I don't have to. Chris Stockton: Hey, we spent years trying to get our certs. I mean, and and we have to go have so many CEUs every year. It's something you should be proud of. ⁓ and to me, I know a lot of the guys bitch, complain ⁓ about the pay and I get it. But at the same time, until we all take pride in it and start doing what we need do to be able to overcome the obstacles that we have, i i it's not gonna get any better in my opinion. Steve Cohen: Absolutely. Yes, the pay's always gonna be an option. But doesn't matter if you are unless you're a pro athlete that's making you know, five hundred thousand dollars a game they play, like in football, or you know, forty-five million dollars in a year, yeah, probably not a big deal. ⁓ you know, money's probably it's important, but ⁓ satisfaction in your life, ⁓ to me is I yeah, I love the money, but being satisfied and being healthy really goes a long way. Hey, I've got two kids who I love and seen them grow into unbelievable adults. ⁓ and I my wife and I raised ⁓ two kids, bought a couple houses, got a couple cars, ⁓ I finished school ⁓ while I was ⁓ in the field ⁓ as well. So I mean you can make it work. Yeah I've had to work a bunch of ⁓ a bunch of part time jobs too. Yeah I get it. But I I would not change anything. I had a chance to go to nursing school early on in my career, even before I went to paramedic school. I I got accepted into nursing school. And a week later I got a job offer from the city of Pittsburgh. And I knew that I didn't want to spend my time in the hospital. Now I do wish I had the RN behind my name because of the education and the patient assessments that nurses do, ⁓ I that part. But I I didn't want to be tied to the hospital. And that's why I I knew deep in my heart I wanted to work for the city of Pittsburgh. That's where I grew up. And the opportunity came and I took it. Chris Stockton: That's awesome. Yeah. So just so everyone's on the same page as I am, ⁓ I am bitching about the pay at same time, but on one hand, we can't make it better until we make ourselves better. That's what I was trying to throw out there. ⁓ so get back into this. So you wrote something that stuck with me on your intake form. ⁓ you said you went from the back of the ambulance to trying to make the back of the ambulance run better. That sounds as simple as all get out. But anyone who's worked this job knows exactly how much is packed into that. Steve Cohen: Yeah. Chris Stockton: loaded sentence. ⁓ because making the ambulance better in the back isn't just about the protocols. It's about, you know, it's not about schedules. It's not about equipment, training, or whatever flavor of the month leadership wants to fucking email about pizza parties or whatever. It's about the people, you know, the medics, the EMTs, the dispatchers, and supervisors trying to get truck staffed with duct tape and prayers. ⁓ so I wanna start here. After the forty three years in the field that you got When you think about the person sitting in the truck at three AM, what do you think we still don't understand about them? Steve Cohen: What a great cr what a great question, Chris. that that's you gotta give me a couple minutes to a couple seconds to think about that one. ⁓ I ⁓ you mentioned it in in your question, it's about leadership. And and one thing I learned ⁓ from the many mentors and great leaders and poor leaders I had what kind of molded me into being the leader that ⁓ I think I became. Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. Steve Cohen: And I think what it comes down to is you as a leader, you have to be in the back of the ambulance at three o'clock in the morning. That's the first thing. You've got to i be willing to do that. So when I became well, ⁓ let me just I think may I need to really start at the beginning to just give you maybe a quick synopsis of how I got into the EMS. ⁓ I was fledging fledgling I was I was not a really good college student. ⁓ and that was ⁓ very interesting because my at the end of my freshman year of college my QPA was one point eight and I got suspended unless I go to summer school. All right. And the reason why is because in high school I didn't have the freedom of not going to class. Got to college. If I went to class, okay, if I didn't, no big deal. I went to a few classes, had a good time. I dated a cheerleader for the first time in my life. Didn't last long, but I at least I got to say I d I dated a cheerleader ⁓ twice, and that was it. But ⁓ it's again it's another story, another podcast. But ⁓ but I I was in summer school, my dad had a heart attack. ⁓ he was playing tennis, had a twinch in his right. Chris Stockton: Yay. Steve Cohen: ⁓ shoulder, came home, was white as a ghost. My mom says she's calling nine one one. My dad being ⁓ a stubborn SOB, may he rest in peace. ⁓ said no, I'm gonna go upstairs and take a shower. Well of course my mom never listened to him on certain things, picked up the phone called nine one one. My dad goes to the hospital, ends up with a ⁓ an MI. ⁓ he was in no pain at the point at all. He had to like ten seconds of twinge that was it and it was on his right shoulder. But he had some ⁓ Q wave ⁓ dif ⁓ if you looked at EKG his Q waves were pretty nasty. And so back then he spent he spent f five days in the ICU and then four days in the step down unit. Step down unit his ⁓ technician was an EMT ⁓ who volunteered at ⁓ a place called Swissville Area Emergency Medical Services, which is right outside of Pittsburgh where I was I was born in this city. And my dad always talked to everybody. My dad was very friendly. And you would never think that Ed Brinkley and my dad would connect, but my dad was a military. If I had a beard and my hair was a little bit long, you see, I don't have much hair anymore, but he he I grew a beard and he he talked to me, but it was just very cold. Didn't even notice when I shaved it off. But that but my Ed, let me describe, Ed was about 6'3, ⁓ a little bit long here back then when men really weren't wearing a lot of earrings. He had earrings, bulldog, ⁓ wrist ⁓ wrist guards on. tattoos and everything, but Ed Ed was a great guy. Ed is still a great guy. My dad got to talk to him and they start talking about what Ed does. And Ed said he volunteers at Swisswell, he's an EMT. And then my dad remembers that I love the show Emergency. Introduces me to Ed and Ed took me to, you know, told me all about it and went for an interview. And at the interview for to be a volunteer, ⁓ they got a call. And said, Chris Stockton: That was a good show. Steve Cohen: Come on. And I went yeah, I I'm in the back of the ambulance. It was a excuse me, it was a Dodge van and we're going licensed siren and we get on the scene, it's a fourteen year old ⁓ girl who fell off her bike, had a knee injury, and I saw these four providers, two paramedics and two EMTs, just take such great kick care of this fourteen year old with splints, ice packs. Chris Stockton: ⁓ sweet. Steve Cohen: talking to the family, to the mom who was hysterical. Then we walked to, you know, we didn't walk, we walk into the hospital on a stretcher. And the respect that the hospital gave this crew and able to go was this authorized personnel also kind of was fun for me as well. And and one thing one thing that I do another, and I began volunteering at Swissville, my parents let me drop out of college. I became an EMT, became a paramedic, went back to school, got my degree, because I promised my parents I would do that. But if it wasn't for Ed Brinkley, my dad's heart attack and Swiss for Area Emergency Medical Services, who taught me a lot about EMS and how to take care of patients, as well as leadership. And then I went to work for the city of Pittsburgh and my crew chiefs at the city of Pittsburgh, because I was a young pup. Give me that trauma. Give me that motor vehicle accident with car on its roof and let me get in there and do what I need to do. And I had One of my crew chiefs just smack me in the back of my head, like if you ever watch NCIS, and where Gibbs hit ⁓ Denozo and and everybody else in the back of the head. Well, he hit me in the back of the head after a patient we took to and I said, Listen, we're here to take care of everybody. Doesn't matter what their emergency is, doesn't matter what time it is. He showed so much leadership and character, it just turned me all around. And that's kind of the message. Well, that is the message that I passed on to all my In my leadership positions, and even when I'm on the truck, I always talk about we're here to take care of people. Doesn't matter. People made fun of me when I talked to people that were unconscious. And I said, Why are you doing that? They can't hear you. Well, they can. That's another story, but that's but the thing about it is leadership starts ⁓ at back of the ambulance at three o'clock in the morning. And if you're willing to do that, your crew see that. Chris Stockton: There's another wrong time. Steve Cohen: And they will listen to you. They will they might not agree with everything ⁓ that you want to try to change. But when I went to Carrie Area EMS being the chief for the first time, and they had a chief who was a really good chief, but was ⁓ more of I have to do everything myself. I'm not like that. I want to give people a chance to grow. And because I was getting phone calls, can I prove this overtime? Can I do this? Can I do that? I said, Well, you're in this officer supervisor role. Let's teach you, but yeah, you can make those decisions. And if you make the wrong decisions, we're gonna talk about it. And as you know, good leaders come in and they might want to bring in their own people. And I had a few people that wanted to come work with me and in a leadership role. And my 19 years at Kerry, ⁓ I never changed my officer corps. I promoted, I created a career ladder. so those are all things that were important. But I was the most active chief ⁓ in the Wake County Ema system. I would go on calls. I'd be at three o'clock in the morning, two o'clock. We're working twenty-four hours because of bad storms, whatever it may be, or thirty-six hours. I was doing I was pulling my shifts. So I was able to I was able to show the staff and my volunteers and my paid personnel. And the other thing is my board of directors said we need to grow our organization. So we went from nine full time employees to forty-five full time employees before I left. Yeah. And we we had we ⁓ listen, I'm not per ⁓ listen, I might say like I'm perfect. I am not. I made tons of mistakes. No doubt about it. Chris Stockton: Damn, that's a No. That's something we learn from is our mistakes. Steve Cohen: We do. And it's one of the things I said to my staff and to my officers that ⁓ it's okay, we can disagree. And you can also tell me I'm wrong without being worried about you losing your job. And boy, did my officers took that advice and they would tell me numerous times I was wrong. They also gave me some really good advice because when I came in, I was really firing off things left and right, boom, boom, boom. And n and I didn't get a chance to really learn the organization. In the first 30 days, though it takes a little longer than that. ⁓ but they they pulled me aside and said, Hey Steve, ⁓ you need to slow down, you need to learn the organization. Now, I could be as a leader, I could say, I'm not listening to them. No way. I'm a boss. What you what I say goes, but I I took their advice and they were right. And I listened to that. And that, you know. First of all, if you ever work for a nonprofit ambulance service, you deal with a board of directors, you deal with the kinds of staff, and they all have their own ways of doing things. I look at it besides having a very successful family oriented organization, I survived nineteen years with different board of directors and never lost my job. So those are all good things because I learned to listen. But I also I made I made like I said earlier, I made Chris Stockton: Wow. Steve Cohen: handful of mistakes ⁓ as well. And but that's how you learn from them. I've had some really good bosses that taught me some really good things. and I'm grateful to them. And I love being a leader. I love teaching. And those are things that are still really important to me. But really it comes down to it's as you know in American Heart, ⁓ you know when you're teaching American Heart, they like to use in videos and which are really good. ⁓ But when it really comes down to teaching CPR to anybody, it comes down to can you recognize it? Can you call 911 and get me a defibrillator and push hard and fast? Yes, all the other information is extremely important. But when it comes down to it, can you do all those and do it good ⁓ well enough until help arrives? And ⁓ so those are the things that when you teach, and you can teach all these great things, but Chris Stockton: Mm. Steve Cohen: It comes down to simple things. Same thing. one thing that we've always taught our staff was that at the end of the shift, you need to go home safe. Simple as that. You have to go home safe. Your safety, yeah, we want to take care of people and we did a really good job at that at Care EMS, no doubt about it. But same thing at the city of Pittsburgh. We did really good care. And then when I volunteered at ⁓ at Ben Salem and outside of Philadelphia, all the people cared about taking care of people. Chris Stockton: Yep, a hundred percent. Steve Cohen: And I'm not sure ⁓ where they learned that. I know where I learned that, ⁓ so I try to emulate that. But it really comes down to One thing about my my first day of EMT class. ⁓ Jack McCambridge, who was a city of Pittsburgh police officer, was her EMT instructor. He said something to our class, which I continue to do today, says always pass on your knowledge and I continue to do that today. Sorry for that long monologue. Chris Stockton: You're good. You're good. I mean, honestly, that kind of brought me to I just was writing a question down as you were speaking. so y to me it amazes ⁓ amazes me, you know, how we remember all the calls we run. ⁓ also the strengths we get from them, you know, and also how we have the dark, intrusive thoughts we get or th the night terrors, if you want to call it that, ⁓ from some of our calls. why do you think that double edged sword helps us in the end as well? Steve Cohen: Mm-hmm. Good. Chris Stockton: in with patient care and leadership. Steve Cohen: Well there's a as you know in the early days, ⁓ when even probably today, ⁓ we never talked about well not today so much, because the mental health component is front and center. Back then it didn't matter, right? You never talked about it. You had a bad call, you got your truck back in service and you were ready for the next call. Today You know, there is such a focus on mental health. And we're doing an okay job. We could do much better because both in police, fire, and EMES, people are still committing suicide and still afraid to talk. So what we have to do when we talk about those dark calls or even those bad calls is you've got to talk about it. And don't be afraid to talk about it. And that's something that ⁓ at my previous job. I did a lot of Narcan training because of course the opioid crisis and everything else. But one of the things when I went to companies and small groups and big groups to talk about Narcan and how to use it, and at the end there's a picture of me and my five year old golden Bailey Bell that said, if you Can't you go you you you gave somebody Narcan and then you know EMS comes, they take the patient away, and then you're left there, nobody talks to you. And then you start thinking about, did I call 911 fast? Did I give Narcan fast enough? Did I do did I push on this person's chest ⁓ hard and fast before EMS arrived? And you start thinking about it and at three o'clock in the morning you pop up in the middle of the night and you're thinking about it, and you start sweating and you start having na nauseated feelings. Normal feelings, but what I tell them is that you need to talk to somebody. Don't drink alcohol. Talk to somebody, do some exercise. But if you can't talk to somebody, call me. Bailey and I will come talk to you. And that's where it has to be known. and the thing about it is when you talk about leadership and things about I know you want to talk about calls and I come to it, but I'm on this leadership kick right now. So thanks for bringing that question up, Chris. ⁓ is that Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah. Steve Cohen: When you read stories that happened in Florida about the hazing of that ⁓ nineteen year old firefighter and water boarding and all this other ⁓ things that went on, and the leadership in that firehouse let it happen. Or the harassment that continues to you read about there's a lawsuit in Washington state of a captain who's a fee ⁓ female captain. Who was ignored by the leadership and is suing that fire department because their leadership didn't do anything. Now it's only one side. I don't know what the other side is to it, but that's a side that you read about and you continue to hear that. Well, if leadership doesn't recognize that you've got to treat people fairly and correctly and take care of them, then you're gonna fail as a leader. For the fire department in Florida and the leaders that continue to ignore things that are happening in their firehouse because they don't think it's gonna go away. That's just poor leadership. Chris Stockton: One hundred percent. I think that if leadership got, you know, on board with the health health cr I would call it a crisis, with the health crisis we have in our field, ⁓ it might it might change a few things. Like you said. In Florida, that's a leadership issue. ⁓ the female so the fire department, that's a hundred percent leadership issues. So on that note, why is it we got the failing leaderships that we have And they stay in power so long. Steve Cohen: Yeah, because that's the way we've always done it. Chris Stockton: And I think that's where we fail. Steve Cohen: How many times you ⁓ I I don't know how many times you've heard it, but this is the way we always have done it. And anytime you try to make change, ⁓ that's what you hear. This well, this is how we did it. This is how we did that. And and I I I get it, I understand that. Hey, listen, there are there are thousands of great public safety leaders out there. There's no doubt about it. ⁓ and they do a really good job. That's why their systems and their their people stay there and they thrive. ⁓ I'm sure you've heard this maybe in your career as well. ⁓ when you take a position, even if you know, from a field position, well, you know, my other partner, this is how we did it, right? I always drove to the call, or we worked ten hours and the first five hours I'm gonna be driving, you're gonna be the back. Or you're a rookie and you're gonna be in the back for the f twenty-four hours, you know, and I'm gonna be driving and you're gonna have to write the report and you're gonna take care of the patient and all that. But that's how we've always done it. And that's how my part my old partner did it, or whatever it may be. Well, sometimes things need to be changed, but being a rookie or a proby, it's tough to say anything. I get that. So you might just have to sometimes suck it up, I guess. I don't know. But do we have do we have to? And for the first I would say seven or eight months, ⁓ and when at Carrie, all I heard was this is how. We used to do it, or this is how the predecessor did it, right? And eventually I had to say, Do I look like the predecessor? And am I acting like the predecessor? And they said, no. I said, well, guess what? I'm not. And yeah, we're making some changes. And yes, I know earlier in my tenure, I was going a little way too quick. I get it. I know way too fast. Got it. And that's why we slowed down. But seven months into it, I'm not that person. I wasn't that I'm not predecessor. My predecessor did a great job taking that organization from one step to another to two more steps. Chris Stockton: I'm not Steve Cohen: It was my job to take it from that those three steps to twenty-five more steps. How long we get there, it's different story, but you know, we take those priorities. But we hear that all the time. ⁓ and any job you go to, this is how we did it. And I get it. But sometimes you just have to introducing change is tough for everybody. Doesn't matter what profession you're in, but you have to learn now, I'm at the age now where I'm okay to say something. Actually I've been at that age for a long time, but meaning that I'm okay to say something. It's but it's how you say it, Chris. It's how you present. Chris Stockton: It is, and that's that was my next point. Is you have to have the conversations, you have to have y you know, we're gonna have disagreements in any field, like you said, there's gonna be disagreements, there's gonna be the banner back and forth of ⁓ well this is how we do it all the time, okay. But why not listen to the other person's side of the things? You know, and that might shed some perspective, or it could just piss you off one or the other. But at least they got their at least they got it off their chest. Steve Cohen: Right. ⁓ and that's one thing that I've learned in all through my s career is that it's okay to talk about it. And we all have bosses. And I most of my bosses said, Yeah, we can talk about it. and you can give your point of view. I'm gonna give my point of view, but ultimately ⁓ the boss has a final say. As long as it's an ethical change and that's not gonna hurt somebody. Okay, you can agree to to make that change and you have to go out and smile and do it. But at least excuse me, like you said, you had that say. And my my new boss at Denver Health said, Yeah, it's okay to disagree with me. We can talk about it. and if you see that I'm ⁓ she said to me, If we're if I said if what did she say? She said, ⁓ if something that you disagree with, tell me. Fair enough. But but do it respectfully, right? Don't go and say you're freaking wrong and you don't know what the heck you're talking about. No, you shouldn't do that to any supervisor or leader. be respectful. And sometimes both on both ends, from the field to the leadership, there's some of that disrespect that goes back and forth. And that is just not fair. And but again, you if to learn those things. And ⁓ I I'm just You know, it's tough to learn. It's always tough to learn. It's tough to make those changes. And, you know, in my new position, I'm gonna make some changes. ⁓ but I'm not ready to s I'm I'm four weeks in. I'm not making those changes. I'm gonna try to introduce those changes. It's one of the things that I'm doing now is that ⁓ I'm incorporating a different mannequin into our into the CPR training, right? And I understand why they were they weren't using this one particular mannequin. I get it, I understand. Good rationale. And they don't have to do it because it's it's appropriate. But I'm in ⁓ but in my classes we're using that third mannequin. And it it's the way it is. And eventually as people see that, okay, well he's using it. It's not causing any discomfort, it's not taking up more time. Well, we're gonna start using it. But it's just how you introduce change and why you wanna do it. And my boss asked me why I want to do it. I said, Well ⁓ the reason why is because when we were teaching CPR, having a child mannequin versus an adult mannequin, it puts that provider or the the student in if you're using the adult mannequin for the child s standards, the student just thinks it's an adult. And when you put the child in, and I'm just using this as an example. ⁓ and but you then then they start thinking, okay, this is a child. And yeah, so it's just it's just making changes. And some things will keep the same, some things we will probably change. But I'm four weeks into my new position. I'm still learning. And I'm gonna continue to learn. And I I love my job. I love working at Denver Health. ⁓ I I the people that I've run into, even this some of the EMTs and paramedics that I run into, because they're up upper four above us. seem to be extremely happy. They like working at Denver Health. I like working at Denver Health. ⁓ good people. I've been welcomed. ⁓ they've been really making me feel comfortable. They're willing to because I've asked the tons of questions and they've all been nobody's rolled their eyes at me yet, which I really appreciate. But some of the questions ⁓ you know they probably have heard numerous times, but I'm new. I want to learn. Chris Stockton: Well that's that's one thing too that that's one thing that you brought up a minute ago is the respect thing, you know. I've always been on the trucks and I had a few medics that actually broke it down to me very simply. They can't be a good medic unless their EMT or their partner is a good per you know, EMT or medic or advanced or whatever. And that was a mutual respect thing that showed me in the end that they may know more than I do But we all have a perspective that we can input and possibly help each other out with. You know, and to me that was a big mental relief as well. And it and that showed proper leadership from those guys that have been doing it twenty plus years and I'm sitting here, you know, f one, two months off the street and these guys are teaching me everything they know. ⁓ i and that kinda goes back to what you just said about, you know, your Denver Health thing is you're doing great jobs, but you're also taking their input and fixing things that you can. Steve Cohen: Didn't. Chris Stockton: a and not trying to break what's already fixed. Steve Cohen: Yeah. Th listen, Denver Health's been around since eighteen sixty and Yeah, the it was Denver General and then became Denver Health. And there's some really ⁓ people that have been around for Chris Stockton: Wow. Steve Cohen: They really talk about learning it's a they have I think we have over eighty six hundred ⁓ employees throughout main campus and the satellite campuses and facilities. And and during my orientation, they had at least ten percent what they call boomerangs, where they leave and then come back to work. And ⁓ that happens on what I hear on a pretty regular basis, ⁓ that People will go somewhere else and come back. And their philosophy about taking care of employees is, I mean, so far in my four weeks, they're living up to it. Absolutely. They they really want to take care of employees. And they want they want people to stay. I don't know. it's a really good place. And like I say, I I'm working I work in with I'm on a team and I have my own little part of the team. Anybody else has their you know other parts as well. But everybody's so friendly, so nice, very accommodating. I'm very happy I made the move. Chris Stockton: That's awesome. And and that makes a big difference too. I mean, with patient care, with pretty much everything we've talked about. If it's a more accommodating, more acclimated area to work in, it makes your job so much better and so much easier and you actually enjoy it. You actually want to give it your all. You don't want to sit there and ⁓ here's a pizza party. No, fuck you. You know, it it's it's not that kind of thing, it sounds like that's awesome for you because a lot of us, you know, need to find that that job. Steve Cohen: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: in this field that we we love and enjoy. Steve Cohen: Yeah. ⁓ again, I've been lucky in my career. ⁓ I've had people that I have worked with who've taught me, taken me under their their wings and pointed me in the right direction, from leadership to being a provider to being an educator. ⁓ so I've been very lucky. and I will always say that ⁓ Swisswell was a great place to volunteer ⁓ as well. ⁓ taught me a lot about leadership how to take care of patients because the paramedics of the EMT's because when I started all I had was a f actually I didn't have any s ⁓ training at all. I got my advanced first aid in C PR and I was able to drive on the ambulance. And that's ⁓ and but they taught me how to be an EMT and then I went to work for the city of Pittsburgh and really taught me how to take care of patients as well. ⁓ and then ⁓ Carrie Area EMS gave me the opportunity to be a a leader as well, a full-time leader as a chief, heading the organization. And they were patient with me too. But I will tell you that my EMTs and paramedics, and I still call them my my family, and they will tell you the same thing. We're family no matter what. And we took care of each other. But I didn't have to instill taking care of patients. They had it already there. Even the people we brought in, ⁓ from you know, when we hired people, ⁓ you know, they adapted to our philosophy and taking care of people. I had I had a handful of people that boomerang too. ⁓ they would leave for maybe a little bit more money and then say, well, it's not always greener on the other side, which is ⁓ you know, everybody kinda knows that. And they would try to come back and if we had a spot for them, sure we'd bring them back as well. So I think it's just I've been very lucky. as we said earlier. ⁓ I'm I'm proud of being a an AMT and a paramedic and an educator and been able to work in all my roles. ⁓ but I couldn't do it alone. ⁓ my family, my wife has supported me. I mean my wife has moved with me for my career without even blinking. So, okay. And ⁓ if I don't you don't have that support. And ⁓ and then ⁓ makes things tough. And that's the same thing. We go back to the back of the ambulance ⁓ three o'clock in the morning. Do do our supervisors and leaders have those providers that are up at three o'clock in the morning while you're sleeping at home, do we have your back? And that's an important quality for all leaders. You've got to have their back. And understand if they make a mistake, yeah, let's own up to it and hopefully we can learn from it, it's not a mistake that's gonna cost you your career. But ⁓ let's talk about it, let's educate and let's get you back on the on the rig if we can't. Chris Stockton: And don't do it in front of others. You know, that's my biggest thing that I hate to see people durate in front of others. I it it makes you feel small, it makes you feel like a moron. Do it behind closed doors. Take ⁓ to the side. It it makes a big difference. Steve Cohen: Well that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. It is true, 'cause it's one of the lessons you learn. I've been yelled at numerous times up in my cre during my career where I've been yelled at by ⁓ a supervisor in front of people. And you know, didn't think twice about yelling at me. ⁓ and but I never thought about kind of challenging my supervisor at the time saying, Stop yelling at me. Can we go somewhere else and talk? 'Cause I I was ⁓ I was young and Didn't want lose my job. ⁓ but yeah. It's the same thing. ⁓ hey, you you and I can be talking and we could disagree on something. ⁓ but if you we disagree, let's disagree behind closed doors, not in front of ⁓ the people that we're supposed to lead. And that's that's key. Right? Yeah, it's key. ⁓ but yeah, again, my career, ⁓ I I've I've gotten no regrets except for not Going to nursing school and getting the RM behind my name. Yeah, that that's it's it's but it's a it's a minor regret. ⁓ EMS has given me a great, great ⁓ path. And the other part, you know, is where I'm on your podcast, which I really appreciate, ⁓ an invite and coming to talk about some of my stories. ⁓ the podcast started ⁓ I've I just like published my I published my 330th episode ⁓ just before I I came on with you. And that's a lot. and I've done that with no sponsor, no team like you know, I don't we don't have a team, right? I I don't have a green room, all right. I don't have a green room. I d ⁓ I don't have a budget, I don't have any of that. ⁓ it's been all a one-person show. And as you know, that it can be very difficult. Chris Stockton: Nope. Okay. Steve Cohen: as well. I still don't like editing. But I was walking my golden retriever when I was in Raleigh, ⁓ in Kerry, and I was listening to Mark Maron's, ⁓ and Terry Gross and I was saying, God, they they talk to people and it sounds like fun. I don't know. I I debated with myself for about six months if I could start a podcast and then come up with a ⁓ a name for it as well. ⁓ actually my I give credit to my son who came up with the name Medic, the number two medic. And also the original logos came from ⁓ Joanna. I don't wanna give her last name, but she was very ⁓ nice to ⁓ create some logos for me as well. And though Joanna is now a client of mine because my part time gig is Magical Destinations by Steve. I'm a travel advisor, I gotta pitch I gotta pitch it, sorry. ⁓ you can cut it out if you want, but Chris Stockton: Go ahead, man. Go ahead. Steve Cohen: Yeah. I'm a travel advisor part-time. I don't charge ⁓ for any of my fees. Majority of my clients are public safety as well. And Disney's Disney Hawaii cruises. I could plan any trip for you, but those are in Asia or my ⁓ and Alaska are my strong points or where I'm really a specialist in. But I don't charge. And but Joanna would help me ⁓ develop the my Medic to Medic podcast logo. But So one I'm sorry. ⁓ well one yeah, well, so I started to podcast ⁓ with ⁓ downloading some free software on my iPad. I asked one of my paramedics, Greg Edwards, to come in if he'd come talk to me about it. I told him I was gonna try to do this podcast thing. And we go into my office, shut the door, and we're talking, I'm asking some questions ⁓ Chris Stockton: So that's awesome. Steve Cohen: Then forty five minutes into the podcast I look at the free software on my iPad. It's not recording anymore. That's why there's part one and part two. ⁓ and he he came back the next day and we finished it up as well. And try to s I there's no editing. The first thick nine or ten episodes went up without any editing at all. I didn't even know how to I I yeah, right. I mean I had no idea how to create a link and get it on Facebook. But Chris Stockton: That's what I do. Steve Cohen: Starting a podcast, getting to fifty episodes, ⁓ figuring out how to get it ⁓ on social media, especially Facebook, which I still post today. and getting Randolph Mantooth convincing him to come on my podcast, which took ⁓ I started in September and then March fifteenth ⁓ of the first year of the podcast, he came on. I finally found a good address an email address for contact for him. And it actually worked. And his wife was his publicist at the time, said that ⁓ he'd be willing to come on ⁓ after the new year, contact me after January first or January second. I emailed her right back. I emailed her and I said, You have a day for me? We still willn't come on? He's and she said, Yeah, he's willing to come on. He'll give you thirty minutes, ⁓ and we'll set it up for March. So I remember pacing in our training room as I was waiting for the Ding to come in that he actually joined the podcast. ⁓ and I I was using Uber conference at the time to to record. And he came on and he gave me forty three minutes. ⁓ actually gave me fifty three minutes, I think, and forty three got recorded and like ten minutes was him and I after the podcast just talking. It was great. I I know he doesn't remember me. I know he'll never remember me, but that's okay. It's my most downloaded podcast and listen to lot podcasts in my eleven years of being on on the air. So yeah. Yeah, it was it was great. I ⁓ I was trying to get somebody from the pit to come on. Can't I I actually emailed Warner Brothers a couple of times and I actually DM'd Noah Wiley, whoever's watching his account on Instagram, got nothing. Chris Stockton: Awesome. Steve Cohen: But I would like to have somebody from the pit come on since it's based in Pittsburgh. I lived in Pittsburgh, I was a Pittsburgh paramedic, and da-da-da. But that hasn't come up. But I've gotten lucky enough ⁓ to have some few people come on the podcast. ⁓ I had one of the technical advisors from ER, who's a was a doctor, ⁓ a pediatrician who ended up ⁓ being the executive producer and showrunner for Chris Stockton: ⁓ wow. Steve Cohen: ⁓ got him throwing a blank ⁓ SVU for for four years. ⁓ what happened was, and that's another good story, is that I just read some years back that ⁓ the creator of ⁓ Law and Order, ⁓ Dick Wolfe, just signed a new contract with Universal Studios to produce more whatever, ⁓ LA or ⁓ Law and order series. And so I emailed funny enough, I emailed Universal Studios Public Relations. They emailed me back and says, Well, Mr. Wolf doesn't do podcasts, but how would you like to talk to this ⁓ other person who was an ER? ⁓ he helped with scripts and everything else and then got into it and ⁓ then moved to SVU and said, sure. So he came on and we talked. And and a couple other people. So I always try. ⁓ the worst thing they can do is say no and not answer like the people from the pit have not answered. And I didn't expect them to answer. I I'm you know, that's that's the way it is. Though I'm I'm trying to wiggle my way into ⁓ with ⁓ Kevin Ty and Randolph Mantooth with their documentary ⁓ that they're trying to ⁓ get out ⁓ publicly and they did on paramedics and paramedics. I know some people that are on the advisory board and ⁓ I saw via the Kickstarter ⁓ campaign they were running, which I actually campaigned to because if it wasn't for emergency, I wouldn't be where I am today. And so I'm hoping that I may be able to get somebody from that their project ⁓ into their own, into their unknown ⁓ come on my podcast as well. But who knows. But all I can do is try. Yeah. Chris Stockton: Awesome. Yeah, I've I've sent out numerous emails and chats and i it it's it's it's amazing how many go unanswered. But no. Steve Cohen: Yeah. It is what it is. But I've also been lucky enough, and I'm sure you have too, some people have come on that you didn't expect would come on as Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah, ⁓ yeah, very much so. I've ⁓ and this is th this whole process has been amazing because of the people I've met doing it. ⁓ I would have never thought some of the people I would have talked to have talked to. and it just amazes me that to this day there's a couple of ⁓ that still reach out to me like, Hey brother, how you doing today? Like, ⁓ okay. That was weird. But okay. You know, a and it Steve Cohen: Yeah. Yeah. Chris Stockton: And I started this as my own, you know, mental health ⁓ break in the end. and it it's as I said earlier before the show is I I started it without thinking it was gonna take off like it has. I'm very appreciative of it. And as you said earlier, it it is difficult ⁓ to do it yourself. ⁓ the PR, the you know, getting guests together, the scheduling, the The whole or ordeal is not as easy as everyone thinks it is. I thought it was gonna be a lot easier than it is, but it's still often enjoyable, you know. And that's it kind of it kind of coincides in my mind with EMS because, you know, we get into EMT school thinking after we graduate, it it's gonna be simple, it's gonna be easy. And then we actually get the field and get our asses handed to us a few times and we learn, hey, it's not all Steve Cohen: Mm. Chris Stockton: Rainbows and, you know, unicorn farts. But I and it's just amazing. Steve Cohen: Yeah, it it It is. Yeah, ⁓ and the thing about it is when Magnemetics started, there were a few very limited EMS related podcasts. And now, you know, you you can't go on to Apple Podcast or on the Facebook or to X or whatever it may be and see another podcast regarding fire side, the police side, the EMS side, the medical side, the PA side. So the podcast all over the place. And ⁓ I I you know, at least in the first few years, it was nice because EMS One when they were first ⁓ they they would rank the podcast and ⁓ Magnum Medic was always in the top ten and the first few years of it. So I really appreciate them doing that. Yeah, but who knows? ⁓ it is what it is. I retired it. when I moved to Washington State for a little bit and then I stepped getting I s because the email was still active, which it still is, of course, and I I would get inquiries every once in a while and then I started getting more inquiries. Doing a podcast, you still we like to have guests for you, I like to come on your podcast. And very rarely do I say no. And and so I brought it back 'cause my wife said, Do you miss it? And I said, I do. I miss talking ⁓ about about about public safety and Chris Stockton: Right. Steve Cohen: talking to people. And I've been lucky enough with the reboot that a handful of people that were once on the podcast have come back on. ⁓ I've been lucky enough that that I can call somebody and say you wanna come on ⁓ and they have and have had a whole bunch of people come back on the podcast. Which makes it easier for me as well. ⁓ 'cause when I actually was gonna when I retired the podcast for the first time, I did ⁓ Chris Stockton: That's awesome. Steve Cohen: a spin-off called Voices of EMS. So I went back to some old guests and I asked if excuse me, if they would come on and tell one more story. I figured I'd get maybe ten people, right, come back on and say I ended up with thirty episodes. ⁓ and if people come back on and want to tell their stories again or tell a different story. And I it was it was fantastic. I really and then my last podcast of Voices of EMS was Eric Eric Chase, ⁓ from E ⁓ S improv and also hosts ⁓ podcast sponsored by Gems. ⁓ Gems and I just that's a again, Gems wanted or yeah, Gems wanted to come ⁓ Gems wanted to partner up with me way back when, except they wanted total control and I just said no. But Gems is ⁓ gives Eric ⁓ has a great audience and Eric and I are friends and Chris Stockton: Right, we're right. Steve Cohen: I pass on you know it's funny, I pass on a bunch of guests to him. He's yet to pass on a guest back to me. I don't know why, but it's okay because I again passing on knowledge and passing on ⁓ you know, people that can get their message out, I'm happy to do it. But Eric interviewed me for that last podcast and that was weird. This is weird for me because I'm not used to being interviewed and I've talked way too much and not let you ask any of your questions. Chris Stockton: You're you're good, man, you're good. ⁓ you've answered a lot of the questions af as you're s talking. ⁓ but as you said, ⁓ I think it would be amazing to get a sponsor sooner or later to me. But at the same time I think that has its ups and downs as well. ⁓ i and you know, the the whole the whole podcast thing is you're right. There is a lot of us out there. And mine was started for the mental health of it and that's why I did it is there's not maybe two or three of us out there, you know, and and I cover leadership, I cover all of it, but my main priority is the ⁓ mental health side of things, you know, and to learn from people like you, you know, what where you came from, what you did to, you know, progress and to see the things progress over the years. Steve Cohen: Yeah. Chris Stockton: I think helps a lot of us that are newer in this field understand it better, you know. And and Steve Cohen: Yeah, I appreciate you ⁓ mentioning ⁓ that. Thank you very much, but doing what you're doing for the mental health component, but you're right. you're focusing on something that only a few people really focus on and talk about. And that is so important in in in the field of EMS, fire and police, ⁓ as well as the hospital side. It just you know, the peer support and ⁓ but ⁓ I just think there's I I I I don't know if we're doing enough ⁓ from ⁓ because there's just way too many people that are ⁓ committing suicide and ⁓ Chris Stockton: Right. ⁓ lose a lot of good ones that way. Steve Cohen: Yeah. when we're done, ⁓ I will ⁓ I'll give you an email for you to talk to somebody, ⁓ to come on your podcast. I think he'd be a great guest for yeah. ⁓ so we'll do that after we stop recording. I know this is all going up recording, but I'll I'll tell you after as well. But he would he he would be he'd be he'd be a great guest for you. Absolutely. And I'll yeah. And that's something Chris Stockton: That's fine. Yeah. And it it's funny that you you apologize earlier too, 'cause I I've been reading a bunch of my questions. You've been answering ⁓ as you've been talking. So th that's not an issue. Don't apologize for that. You know, you gotta get your story out there. Steve Cohen: Yeah, well. Yeah, well, like I say, ⁓ I want people to listen to our podcasts. ⁓ my podcast my podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, it's on ⁓ speaker dot com. But Speaker is my platform. ⁓ again, it's I'm a loyal person and Speaker's been really good to me as well. And they've answered a bunch of my questions, especially at the beginning, and to help me ⁓ get to where I was able to po ⁓ to Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah. Steve Cohen: publish ⁓ in a normal way as well. And then of course I just posted a a special message on my Facebook page and LinkedIn about my episode three hundred and thirty and how I got there. And it just I know it's not a a big milestone for some people ⁓ but for me three hundred and thirty episodes of this podcast is a milestone and and that as you know being a Chris Stockton: Awesome. Very Steve Cohen: ⁓ a one person show, it's not easy to to produce and direct and write scripts if you have to write scripts or whatever it may be and then ⁓ do some editing and then getting it out there and trying to get your message out. But you're right, we're competing with a whole bunch of people that have bigger platforms, have sponsors behind them, have ⁓ great listenership and and downloads. I get it. But I don't do for the downloads. I I do it one Chris Stockton: Right, exactly. Steve Cohen: One to get the story out for people to give ⁓ opportunity. ⁓ two, I like it as well. Yeah. I I'd love to have a spon well, I have a sponsorship and that's my own. My travel, my travel, my every once in a while I will do a a quick introduction to this podcast is ⁓ sponsored by Magical Definition by Steve. If you wanna travel, reach out to Steve. That's right, that's me. Or something like that. And but yeah, so I ⁓ and then ⁓ I did have I did have a quick podcast ⁓ sponsor back in the early days. ⁓ my brother ⁓ sponsored a couple. ⁓ didn't pay for it, but ⁓ it's okay. I sponsored his deli. ⁓ his deli sponsored a couple episodes as well. But yeah, that's it. ⁓ but yeah, it it's ⁓ it's a everybody has a podcast. It's not it's not easy. ⁓ for me, editing's still the toughest part. And plus you want to make sure your guests sound right. And also I don't want sound stupid, but sometimes I sound really stupid. But it's fun, because most of my ⁓ I do have some set questions every once in a while, but for most of it it's been all off the cuff, and that's the fun part. All right, and you might be going and say, Okay, I'm no I'm going in this direction, right? This is the direction we're going in the podcast, and all of a sudden your guest says something and you just go whoop way to the right side or to the left side. Chris Stockton: That's pretty much a man. Steve Cohen: Or down the middle, or whatever it may be, as well. ⁓ and that's the that's that's the fun part. Yeah, that's the fun part. Chris Stockton: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. You know, I I I write ⁓ the intros and a few questions and then I dri write my closings normally. And that's all I write. Everything else of mine's, you know, not scripted. So Steve Cohen: Yeah. Yeah, that's the way that's the way it should be. I I I know. It's it's it's fun to be a podcaster. I can say I am a podcaster. You can say you're a podcaster and that we're ⁓ we're successful. We're so we're still pr we're still I read once that I read that most people get if they can't get past seven episodes, then they just quit. Yeah, and ⁓ it's just Chris Stockton: pushing through. That's it. Right. Steve Cohen: I know you're past seven, I'm past seven. ⁓ and I it's it's just a Yeah. It ⁓ yeah, just keep Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah. I ⁓ I think I better have like fifty, fifty. But also it's gonna start right here, so Steve Cohen: Yeah. Chris Stockton: You know. On on that note, I I just wanna thank you for everything you've said, you know, ⁓ Someone is listening to this alone, ⁓ and I know they're they're they could be sitting in the truck after a bad call, driving home in silence, maybe leadership now and and wondering if they've gotten ever too far away from their their roots, you know. ⁓ and if they're able to protect the people they're supposed to be. ⁓ maybe they're new and already wondering if they've made a mistake. Or maybe they're just burned out, ⁓ and they don't want to call it that because it becomes real. And yes, I've been there, done that people, so don't do that to yourselves. It's a fucking horrible place. ⁓ maybe they're just showing up, still having patience, still doing the job, still being dependable, but quietly losing themselves. Again, burnout, don't do it yourself. Speak out to somebody. So I'll ask you this. If someone is still showing up for everybody else, ⁓ but slowly disappearing inside this job, what do they need to hear from you tonight or today, or whenever they're listening to this? Steve Cohen: Yes, so that's a great question. And just I think what the message that you're trying what you're what you're sending, not trying to send, is that first of all, if you're need help, ask for it. And if you're a leader, recognize that this person needs help and help them, not ignore it. And a and if you don't know who to talk to, there there are plenty of phone numbers out there. Reach out to some reach out to a friend. Hey, email me and I'll find your resources. ⁓ there are tons of resources out there that you can talk to. ⁓ so I think that What we have to stress, and especially in the mental health component, is that first of all, it's okay to ask for help. it's okay to ⁓ talk about it. you're gonna dwell on no matter I get it. But you can talk to somebody and and ⁓ help you, especially there's but there's a lot of people that have probably been in the ⁓ What we have to stress, and especially in the mental health component, is that first of all, it's okay to ask for help. Two, it's okay to ⁓ talk about it. I mean, that going home and I don't know, dwelling on it. Yeah, you're gonna dwell on it no matter what, I get it. But if you can talk to somebody and and help you, especially there's but there's a lot of people that have probably been in the same ⁓ boat that you've been in on that call, that's how they handled it. talk to somebody. there's ⁓ no reason to your Right? There's just no reason to end your life where there's so many resources and people out there ⁓ willing to help. ⁓ boat that you've been in on that call, that's how they handled it. You know, talk to somebody. I just can't there's no reason to end your life. Right? There's just no reason to end your life where there's so many resources and people out there willing to help. And the other parties you've got to recognize that this that you need help and the people that you're working with every day, Chris Stockton: Yep. Watch your partners backs. You know, make sure you're there for them. And I I know we all think we do, but we don't ever always notice it. We should pay closer attention to our partners, pay closer attention to our spouses. ⁓ hell, even if it's your kids or your parents that are doing this, check in on ⁓ The word I'm fine ain't ain't fine. That's not no, we need deeper than that. You know, and and that's my biggest thing is, ⁓ I'm fine. All right, let's go further into that. I understand you're fine, but why are you fine? You know. Hey. Gotta be. Coincide. Right, and they actually coincide you know. You're good. ⁓ yeah. That's what that that's what it's for. That's what I'm here for, you know? And and before we wrap up, ⁓ where can people find you, follow your work, or listen to your podcast, bet it to bet Yeah. Yes, sir. And then hey, for everyone listening, you know, I'll make sure Pot Steve's podcast and contact info's included when I post the the ⁓ description. Let me go ahead.