Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / Losing Everything Publicly... And Rebuilding Anyway: Michael Crismali | Episode 14
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- Kelsey Dunbar: The hardest part wasn't losing everything. It was figuring out who I was afterward. That's a quote from today's guest's upcoming book. And honestly, I think that one sentence alone says more than most people realize. Because what happens when your worst moment becomes public? Not just privately painful, publicly visible, publicly judged, publicly discussed. How do you rebuild after shame? After collapse? After losing the identity you thought defined you? And maybe the biggest question of all, how do you stop believing that your worst moment is who you are forever? Today we sit down with Michael Crismali, we call him Mike. He's a speaker, an advocate, upcoming TEDx speaker, and author of the soon-to-be-released book, My Name Is, Reclaiming Identity After a Public Fall. And this conversation goes deep. Welcome back to Rebuild and Fulfill. I'm Kelsey Dunbar, co-founder of Suffer to Tougher. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): And I'm Mark Ragella. Kelsey Dunbar: And today's episode is one we've honestly been really looking forward to for a while, because this isn't just a story about public failure. It's a story about identity, accountability, shame, rebuilding, and trying to figure out who you are after life completely falls apart. Mike, first off, thank you so much for being willing to have this conversation with us. Michael V Crismali: ⁓ it honestly it's it's my honor to sit down with you both. ⁓ before we begin too, I just want to tell you how much I admire both of you for the work you're doing in the mental health arena. The work you do to raise awareness in a field that still has so much stigma attached to it is absolutely invaluable and you're gonna save a lot of lives because of it. So I consider it a privilege to be here, honestly. Kelsey Dunbar: Thank you. That that means a lot, really. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Thank you. Kelsey Dunbar: All right, so just to kind of jump in, Mike, ⁓ before everything became public, before your life changed, who was Michael Crismali? who did you believe you were at that point in your life? Michael V Crismali: So before everything became public, I think I would have told you that I was a father first. You know, I I was someone who cared very deeply about my family. I I certainly believed in service. I genuinely wanted to leave the world a little bit better than I found it. I was ⁓ I was a firefighter. I was very active in the community. I feel like I was a guy who people called on when they needed help. So if you had asked me, you know, to describe myself back then, I'd have given you words like dependable, loyal, hardworking, definitely caring. And none of those things were fake. I mean, they were absolutely real, which is what makes stories like mine kinda complicated, you know. People often want a ⁓ a clear villain or a clear hero, but life doesn't really work out that way. You know, I wasn't living some secret double life, and I definitely wasn't waking up every morning trying to be the guy whose name would eventually appear in a newspaper headline. ⁓ but what I was though was someone who had become overwhelmed, honestly. I was definitely carrying some pressure that I didn't know how to deal with. I was definitely making decisions that I never imagined that I would make. And ⁓ sort of convincing myself that tomorrow would somehow give me the chance to fix whatever I did today, you know. ⁓ I don't know. So looking back, I realized that I had built a large part of my identity around being perceived as a good person. You know, but what I hadn't learned yet though. I think I I knew this, but what I hadn't really experienced is that character isn't tested when life is easy. It's tested when things begin to fall apart. And and that's really one of the lessons that I carry with me today, right? It's not who we are. ⁓ it's not, you know, revealed by our best moments, it's revealed by what we do after we have the worst ones. So yeah, before my life changed, ⁓ I thought identity was something that you, you know, earned and then you kept, but I I kinda learned that you, you know, you have to choose your identity over and over again. Especially when life gives you a reason not to. So Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): there. Thank you again for being on our podcast, Mike. So you kind of answered this question already, but I want to know if there was more like what were you chasing back then you mentioned identity, but you think it was a success? Was it approval? ⁓ You was it control anything like that? Michael V Crismali: Yeah, I ⁓ so let's see, I I think if you had asked me the question at that time, I probably would have landed on success. You know, I I was working at a aside from the fire department, which was volunteer, I was working in a commission based career. I wanted to provide for my family, who doesn't? I wanted to be respected, of course. I want to build a good life. And on the surface, that's kind of what I think I would have pointed to. But Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah. Michael V Crismali: Looking back now with the benefit of hindsight, I'm not sure success was really what I was chasing. I think I was more chasing the feeling that I was enough. So, you know, like a lot of people, I had attached a tremendous amount of my self-worth to my ability to solve problems, right? I wanted to take care of people and hold everything together. And honestly, when things were going well, that worked fine. The problem came when life started applying pressure from like multiple directions at once. You know, my my marriage was falling apart. ⁓ my my my daughter was, you know, struggling with some some things, financial stress was mounting. And I found myself confronting situations that I I I th you couldn't get out of just simply by working harder, you know? And so what I realized now is I wasn't chasing money nearly as much as I was chasing the relief that money brings. I wasn't really chasing approval so much as I was chasing validation. And it wasn't really chasing control, I was just trying desperately not to lose it, is the way I look at it. But the irony is that the harder that I worked to maintain the image that everything was okay, the further I got from being okay. You know? I think ⁓ a lot of people can probably relate to that. We spend a lot of energy trying to protect the version of ourselves that we want the world to see. But we never really stopped to ask whether that version is healthy, whether it's sustainable, or if it's even real. So anyway, related to identity, one of the most powerful lessons that I've learned is that identity becomes dangerous when it's built entirely on what you do rather than who you are. You know? I think eventually life can take away a job or a title, you know, or a relationship will end. ⁓ life can take a reputation away. And then you kind of have to answer the the the really deep, much deeper question, who are you when all the things you used to define yourself are gone? And so for a long time I didn't know the answer to that question. And that's really what my journey has been about, is finding it. So as I sit here today, I would say the thing driving me most back then wasn't success, you know, or approval. ⁓ it was the desire to feel worthy, I think. And sometimes when we're searching for worthiness in the wrong places, we end up making decisions that take us further away from what we're looking for. That was that was my case. So Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I mean for the audience, I mean just met you what five minutes ago and I already see similarities in my story and your story. Did you get married at a young age? Did you get married at a young age? Kelsey Dunbar: I was thinking the same thing, Mark. Michael V Crismali: Yeah, what ⁓ actually no. ⁓ but ⁓ so I didn't get married at a young age, but what w I was with the woman that I did marry since I was fourteen. But we g we we were together a long time before we got married, but so yeah, same premise. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Are you familiar with terminology codependency? Michael V Crismali: Yes. ⁓ yeah. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Would you say that the way you're living your life back then was codependency because of the lack of self-worth at that time? Yeah, me too. Me too. Michael V Crismali: One hundred percent. One hundred percent. I yeah, I absolutely looking back and funny, hindsight is such a it's such a it gives you so much clarity, you know, because I couldn't see it in the moment, but I s I see it now. I see it now. Absolutely that's what was going on, for sure. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, ⁓ absolutely, Mike. was there was there a a where really hit you like just this is never going back the way that it was? Michael V Crismali: Alright, you ready for this? I'm gonna get real specific with you because this is something I've thought a lot about. March 9th, 2022, at 1215 in the afternoon. Now I I know you're thinking, how the hell does he know that? Well, let me tell you why. First of all, March 9th is my birthday. And on on that day, March 9th, 2022, I was actually sitting in my car outside of a business meeting with my former partner. And kind of getting ready to go in, and I received a Facebook messenger ⁓ message from a reporter. And the message was asking me if I wanted to comment on the story regarding my theft from the fire department. Now I didn't respond to the message. I remember looking at it and just the the the color must have drained out of me. I had the one of those moments where just everything dropped. I knew what it meant. So Here's the thing, for about a month after I was actually charged, the story hadn't gone public yet. Now remember, I had never been through anything like this before. So I had been checking, you know, Google constantly, always online, wondering if or when it would actually appear. And after a few weeks of nothing showing up, a small, very wishful, very naive part of me started to believe that maybe it wouldn't happen. Maybe it would somehow stay contained. But that message that I got from the reporter, it destroyed that hope instantly. I mean, it was never going to go down that way. Anyway, about an hour after that message, the story hit the news cycle. Okay. That was the moment where everything changed. And it wasn't because I didn't already understand the seriousness of what I had done. I did. And it you know, and it wasn't it wasn't I I'm getting choked up even thinking about it, to be honest. ⁓ I knew consequences were coming. I knew all of it. But once it became public, I didn't have control anymore over who knew. Moreover, I didn't have control over what they thought. And I didn't have any control over how they would interpret the news story. And by the way, the news story made me look like a monster. So in that moment, it felt like my life had been reduced to a headline. And and and really that's a terrifying thing because headlines don't have any context with them. They just have impact. You know, they don't explain the full human story. They capture the part that gets the attention. That's what the news story is about. And then people make their judgments from there. So that day, I remember feeling like life had ⁓ you know, the life that I knew was officially over. My reputation, my relationships, my future, my children's experience. All of all of a sudden it all felt in peril. It all felt uncertain. And, you know, at that moment I wasn't just afraid of the legal process anymore. I was afraid that this one story would become the only story that people would ever associate with me. So, in many ways, that was the beginning of the deepest part of the identity crisis that I would ultimately go through. Because once your name becomes public that way. You don't just wonder what people think of what you did. You start wondering if that's all they will ever think when they hear your name. This is all what I was going through. You learn real, real quickly the reputation is what people think they know about you. But identity is what you have to fight to remember about yourself. So yeah, March ninth, twenty twenty two, twelve fifteen. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah, that's amazing. I mean it really is. The fact that you got that date and the time and all that stuff. So public judgment. I mean, how does that mean? You got a lot of stuff going on right there. There's a lot of moving parts and you got this public judgment. What does it feel like emotionally? Because I think a lot of people can imagine that, but going through that is very, very different. I know that. Michael V Crismali: ⁓ yeah. that's a great question. So public judgment let's see if I have a put public judgment felt like living with a second version of myself kind of walking around the world, one that I didn't recognize, but also one that other people can meet before they ever met me. That's kind of like how I think of it. Right? People imagine public judgment as embarrassment and and there there's an element of that for sure. But it's a lot more than that. Right? It's humiliation, fear, ⁓ anxiety, grief, helplessness, and it all sort of happening at the same time. Because it it feels like you've completely lost control of your own name. You know? After the story became public, I found myself assuming that everyone knew. Right? Every room felt different. Every interaction had this invisible layer underneath it. You know, someone could be smiling at me, talking to me normally, and part of my mind is wondering, do they know? Did they do they read the story? Are they only pretending not to know? Are they judging me right now? Like this, these are the thought process I went through. It it's an exhausting way to live. And excuse me, what made it even harder was that I understood why people would judge me. I wasn't walking around thinking, how dare they? You know, I knew what I did was wrong. I knew the headline was serious. I mean, I wish the story would have been written a little differently, but I knew people had a right to have feelings about it. But I mean, emotionally, it still hurt to feel like the full, you know, complexity of my life had been compressed into this one public mistake. And that's what public judgment does. It f completely flattens you. Right? It takes a whole person, a father, a son. friend, a person who's, you know, done good and bad and everything in between, and it reduces them to the worst sentence ever written about them. That's that's what I felt. And even when when people weren't saying anything directly, the silence was deafening. It was really, really loud to me. You know, sometimes the fear wasn't even what people said. It was what I imagined they were thinking. I mean I felt like I was going crazy. I became hyperaware of my own name. Check this. I became afraid of Google. Of Google, because I became afraid that every new person I would meet would search me up once they found my name and find the story before they ever had a chance to know who I was as a person. So emotionally, public judgment, man, it felt like I was walking through life with my worst moments stapled right to my chest and hoping people would still look me in the eye instead. It's the best way for me to describe it. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah, so I mean, and I think this is gonna be an obvious answer, but then again, you know, I know you, so ⁓ you know, it might be more obvious for me. First of all, I just wanna say, and I'm sure that there are people that are gonna be listening to this that are gonna be thinking the same thing or going through the same experience. I physically feel like I just got done with the hardest core workout I've ever had. Cause like ⁓ I I feel kicked in the stomach for you, just just listening to this. So I can only imagine what it would be like to live through it. Michael V Crismali: Yeah, yeah. Ha ha. Kelsey Dunbar: ⁓ but so quick question though. So what hurt more, like going through it at that time or like the way people saw you afterward, like that shadow that you just kinda carried around and just couldn't seem to escape? Michael V Crismali: Yeah. ⁓ really, really, really good question. So so the honest answer is is is they they both hurt. They hurt in different ways though. Let me let me see if I could sort this out. So the what happened hurt because I knew that like I had violated my own values, right? That that pain was internal. It was ⁓ the private realization that I had crossed the line that I really never thought that I would. There's a specific kind of grief that comes from disappointing yourself, you know? Especially when you spent so much of your life trying to be someone dependable and trustworthy and, you know, service-minded as I was. But the way people saw me afterward hurt differently. Once the story became public, I wasn't just dealing with what I had done. I was dealing with what people now believe that meant about who I was, and that's a a different kind of pain. ⁓ what you know, what happened forced me to face my actions. The way people saw me afterward forced me to face the possibility that I might never be seen as anything more than those actions. And that was kind of devastating to me. Because here's the thing, I had served, you know, as a volunteer firefighter. I I loved people. I I had always tried to be a good father, a good friend. ⁓ good member of my community. I wasn't perfect, but I mean I really had, I was, I you know, my heart was pure in all those endeavors, and none of that erased what I did. But it also didn't feel right that what I did could erase all of that. You know? That was one of the hardest ⁓ emotional tensions to live with. It's accepting full responsibility without accepting the idea that I was only my worst decision. And you know, as I mentioned before, that's what public judgment can do, right? Turns the the chapter into the whole title, right? Takes one part of your story and tries to rename the whole damn book. So honestly, if I had to answer directly, I'd say that what happened created the wound. But the way I was seen afterward kind of kept reopening. It's like pulling a scab, you know? So in the deeper the deeper work for me as I would go through my journey was learning that I couldn't control how everyone else saw me. I could only control whether I continued seeing myself through the lens of the one mistake that I made. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): So the way that you saw yourself back then, when you looked at the person in the mirror back then, when all that was going on and you're getting that public scrutiny, what did you think about the person in the mirror? Michael V Crismali: Let me clarify. So back then what did I think of myself? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah, when you look at the person in the mirror. Michael V Crismali: Okay. So back then, again, I and you know, we sort of touched on this before, I I liked, who I was, or so I thought. I think what happened was that those those cracks, you know, those things that kind of ⁓ you were the things underlying the surface that I wasn't paying attention to. I just wasn't paying attention to them. ⁓ I very I don't want to say concerned, but I thought a lot about my public image. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah. Yeah. Michael V Crismali: I really liked the fact that, you know, as a as a firefighter, as someone who had, you know, a wife and a couple of children, I really th liked the way we were perceived in the neighborhood, you know, reputation, good family, that type of deal. And that's one of the things I think that caused me to to really keep whatever was going on in terms of the problems to myself because even if I couldn't admit it or or or it wasn't on the surface for me to be able to acknowledge it at the time, there was something inherently in me that didn't want people to know that there were any issues whatsoever. And so I think when I looked in the mirror, you know, it was a little bit of a it was a little bit of me being a little dishonest with myself. I liked what I saw on the surface, but I didn't look deeper. You know what mean? And and actually when everything went down and things went public, I think that one of the biggest fears that came to mind was exactly what we were just talking about. this image that I had portrayed and that other people saw of me because they weren't looking deeper either was about to be shattered. And that thought paralyzed me, you know? But generally speaking I liked who I was, or so I thought. I don't think I was really being overly honest with myself, if if that makes any sense. So yeah. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): No, completely makes sense. But I will give you credit. I mean, it gave you an opportunity. I don't know like how long into it that you did that introspective, but I mean, it gave you an opportunity to really look from the inside out. And then obviously there was a tremendous growth there that occurred. Michael V Crismali: Yeah, I mean, you know it's funny. I I think that I so let me let me let me put it this way. I I I recently had someone say to me, you know that you know that old thing like where you say, Well, you know, if you had a time machine, would you go back? Would you change, you know, would you change this? Would you change that? Someone made a comment to me, I don't remember when, but They said something to the effect of, well, if you had a time machine, I bet I know where you'd go. I know y you go back and change, you know, what happened. And it's so funny because I I think about that and no. No, I wouldn't. And and I know that sounds strange. It's the easy thing to say, I wish I could go back and undo it. But here's the thing: you talk about being introspective. Guys, I wouldn't be sitting here today without you. I wouldn't have a book coming out. I wouldn't have a keynote all prepared. I wouldn't be changing lives right now, telling my story had I not gone through it in the first place. So at the end of the day, it was very painful. It was. There was a there's I still to this day wake up in the middle of the night. At times in a complete and total sweat, because you know how sometimes you forget like where you are, and I'm transported right back into those sleepless nights. So I still deal with that, and I will probably deal with it for the rest of my life. But at the end of the day, I am incredibly aware. And listen, if I was forced to make the same decision today, no question it would be different. But what I went through back then has caused me to have this clarity. Of who I am, of who I was, of where things went wrong, and that is so incredibly important. Because I couldn't be out here doing the work that I'm doing without that. So would I go back and change it? No, ironically I wouldn't. And I think people find that to be a little a little strange, but it's true. It's very much who you know, it's I needed to go through that to be here. And and knowing yourself and being honest with yourself is so incredibly important. And that's that's what the whole journey's been about. So Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): completely understand and relate to that. I really do. Because like when I do a lot of speaking, know, everybody's, I'm so sorry you went through what you went through and you lost so much and so forth. I said, please don't feel sorry for me. I said, because through this journey, I found my true self. And some people go a lifetime without finding their true self. So to me, everything is a blessing. It's all how you, you, how you, how you vision it in the brain. Michael V Crismali: True. Yeah, it's what you do with it. I mean, it it's always about that, right? What's that saying? Life is ninety percent about, you know, or ten percent about what happens to you, ninety percent about how you deal with what happens to you, how you react, how you pick yourself up when you fall. I mean, I it's so true. It's so true. So Yeah. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: Right, how you respond. Yeah. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): 100%. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. I I'm just glad that, you know, going through your experience that, you know, a lot of people would would crumble under that. They would start believing what everybody else was believing, and that you had that moment where you were like, This this is not the sum of everything that I've accomplished in my life. This was one bad act. And you weren't excusing it, but you were saying this is one bad act compared to the hundred of other things that you've done for your community, done for your family, done as a man, you know, done as a business professional. And you didn't allow yourself to reduce it even though they were to just one bad act. And that's awesome. But as far as like because obviously you can't speak for them ⁓ how soon they might accept your apology or accept that that might not be who you are. ⁓ I just wanna know back then, even though you found kind of a calm place for yourself, did you think that you were gonna be beyond redemption in in the public eye? ⁓ like you would never be able to crawl up from underneath it or you were just like, I can't control that. All I can control is myself. Michael V Crismali: Yeah, I think that's actually one of the worst parts of shame, right? It doesn't just make you regret what you did. It convinces you that what you did is now like the truth about you. So there were definitely moments where I felt like my entire identity had been permanently rewritten. You know, I I as I as mentioned before, I'd spent years trying to be someone who served others and be dependable. here's another one. I ⁓ I mean I think we all can relate to this. I wanted to be someone my children could look up to. Even even being a member of the fire department, I would always say that one of the reasons I do it is because it's a great example for my children, you know. I wanted to be someone who also stood up for responsibility and integrity. And then suddenly there's this one public story, no doubt that I earned, but it seemed to overpower everything else. It felt like no matter what good I had done before, no matter what good I might do after, it felt like people would always see that first. That's where that fear of ⁓ you know people searching my name came from. And honestly, that is a very, very dark place to be emotionally. Because when you believe that you're beyond redemption, you stop thinking in terms of growth, which is what we should all be thinking. You start thinking in terms of, you know, survival. Right? You start asking, you know, the questions like, how do I get through the day instead of who can I still become? And for a long time I was there, absolutely. I wasn't just worried other people would define me by my worst moment, because I started doing it myself. And that was part of what became really dangerous, right? Because it's one thing for the world to misunderstand you. But it's another thing entirely when you, you know, begin agreeing with the worst interpretation of yourself. Now we're starting to get into dangerous territory. But over time I had to learn, you know, something that changed everything for me. That redemption is really not about pretending the mistake didn't happen. That's big. It's about refusing to sort of let the mistake become the definition of who you are. So you'll never ever hear me say that my past doesn't matter. It absolutely does, as we just talked about. It shaped me, it humbled me in a big way. Right? It forced me to confront things that I really needed to confront. But it doesn't own me. And so that's the difference. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. I mean, what a great opportunity that obviously you couldn't see back then, but I'm sure you can see it now as as a father, because that really spoke to me there when you were saying, you know, I'm trying to give something to my kids to say, you know, this is something I'm trying to aspire to. I mean, every every father wants to be the hero to their kids, and here's this moment. And you're like, Did I did I just lose all that? And yet now? You have a completely different story that can help them so much more than this big thought that kids have in their heads of like, my dad is a hero. These kids can look at their father, look at how you dealt with adversity, and you can show them that no matter what you go through in life, there's gonna be ups, there's definitely gonna be downs, and you can actually decide how you're gonna deal with those tough moments, but you're preparing them for something. That most other parents could never prepare them for in the same way that you did. ⁓ so, but going towards that, so one thing we talk about a lot is how dangerous it becomes when your identity is built entirely around, you know, success, image, achievement, you know, public perception. Because, you know, once all that disappears, you know, you're forced to ask, Who am I now? So how hard was that? for you and ⁓ where are you at with that process? Michael V Crismali: Yeah, ⁓ that part was that part was so hard. I I don't even it's funny, you render a public speaker speechless sometimes, right? I don't even know the words. It was so hard. You know, because for a long time I didn't realize Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): you Michael V Crismali: You know, we talk about getting to know yourself. I didn't realize how much of my identity was tied to things that were sort of outside of me. You know, I thought I knew who I was, as I was telling Mark earlier. I was the father of the firefighter, someone that people trusted. ⁓ I had built relationships, earned respect, and created that certain image, you know, for myself that I genuinely reflected. or believe reflected really who I was. And so to be fair, much of it much of it was true. But the dangerous part again was that I allowed those roles and perceptions to become the foundation of my self worth. So when everything changed, ⁓ it just I don't know. Didn't feel like I I lost my reputation. It felt like I lost myself. And I'm gonna preface, I'm gonna try to not get emotional here because ⁓ It's funny that you asked the question the way you did the who am I now? ⁓ I asked myself this a lot. It was it was it was one of the more painful questions that I ever had to sit with. Once that public image is damaged, once the titles are gone, right, and people start looking at you differently, you are definitely forced to confront whether you actually know who you are without all of that surrounding you. And I I didn't I didn't know, you know. I had spent so much time being seen as that dependable individual that I kind of didn't know how to process becoming someone that people were disappointed in. It felt like a knife in my chest. I had spent so much time being associated with service that I didn't know what to do when my name became associated with betrayal. Even saying it now, it's so hard to imagine. And I had spent so much energy trying to be respected that I didn't know how to live when respect was no longer guaranteed. And that was the epitome of an identity crisis. Because excuse me, it wasn't just how do I fix this. It was if people if people no longer see me the way they used to, do I still know who I am? So that answer that answer had to be rebuilt from the inside out. Took a lot of work. What I learned is that public perception really can affirm your identity, but it can't be the source of it. You know, if your identity is built only on how the world sees you, then the world can take it away. Right? But when it's built on truth, even your worst moment can't destroy it. So I had to kind of become ⁓ I had to learn really how to become grounded in some deeper things, like honesty, like accountability, and purpose. So almost lost it on that one, sorry. Mm. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): So, and I appreciate your rawness and you're getting emotional, I really do. I mean, honestly, your story, even though it's very different stories, very relatable to me and I'm feeling the emotion over here, I really am. But you brought up some great points about trying to find your identity and trying to just control what you can control and so forth. But when that started, Okay, when you started working on yourself, in the earliest days, how did you separate what happened versus your identity? How did you start working on that? Michael V Crismali: ⁓ I wanna make sure I wanna make sure I'm clear on the question. How did so you're saying how did I separate the mistake from the the identity part? Is that what I'm hearing? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah, I mean, you know you're a good dad. You know you care about others. You know you're a successful, you know, but you got this mistake that early on, you know, the perception was it's going to define you. How'd you start separating that and start working on yourself to become the man that you are right now? Michael V Crismali: understand. ⁓ yeah, th so, you know, it was kind of a was kind of a slow progression, right? And it didn't begin because I suddenly felt better about myself. It sort of started because I realized that if I, you know, continued to define myself only by what I had done, I was going to become useless to everyone, including myself. You know, and I was always I was always really driven by the fact that I needed to be a good, you know, dad for my kids too. That was a big one. But ⁓ anyway, the first step You know, for me to to make that that distinction was brutal honesty. You know, I had to stop minimizing the mistake, but I also had to stop exaggerating what it meant about the totality of who I was. I was like two extremes. You know, this was a really, really difficult balance. On one side there's denial, you know, where you try to make the mistake smaller than it was. And on the other side, there's that shame where you make the mistake bigger than your entire life. So I had to learn to live somewhere in the middle where you can have accountability, but where it doesn't include self-destruction. So for me, what that looked like was I had to say, you know, yes, I did this. Yes, it was wrong. There were consequences, but no, this is not the only true thing about me. But that sentence took some time, right, for me to believe. I could say it, but I had to believe it. The turning point though was when I realized that identity isn't proven by never falling, right? Identity is revealed by what you do after you fall. You know, what does Rocky say? It's not about how many times you get knocked down, it's about how many times you get back up type of deal. So, right? That's what I was thinking. So if you know, if I wanted to be a man of integrity, then integrity had to become something I practiced in the aftermath, not something I only claimed before I made the mistake. Kelsey Dunbar: Okay. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yep, yep. Michael V Crismali: You know, if I wanted to become someone who or if I wanted to continue really being someone who served others, I had to find a way to use even the ugliest part of my story to help someone else feel less alone. And you can see this is where it starts to, you know, the identity starts to come back. And cause that's when the separation starts to happen. It wasn't that I had raised the mistake. I began building some evidence, if you will, that I was still capable of growing, of being honest. And more than anything that I still had a purpose. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. So I mean you you used the word accountability in in your previous statement and you know it's certainly that's a word that people throw around a lot. ⁓ but real accountability is super painful, right? What did accountability actually look like for you ⁓ going through that and and now? Michael V Crismali: Hmm. ⁓ boy, okay. Try to keep it together here. ⁓ accountability for me, yeah, it is more than more than just a word. So let me try to paint this picture for you, all right? Get your tissues ready. It was a series of rooms that I had to walk into, knowing that I was about to lose the version of myself, right? That the people in those rooms still believed in. Let me let me explain what I mean. What accountability looked like was sitting down with the chief of my department and reading a four-page letter that I wrote word for word outlining what I had done. It looked like watching the hurt right in his eyes while still seeing the compassion there too, which actually made it harder. Because he wasn't just angry, he was disappointed, but he still cared. The range of emotions there was out of control. It looked accountability looked like standing in front of the amazing men and women on the executive board that I served with and telling the people that I loved and respected that I had betrayed their trust. I did that. It looked like answering questions from a committee that they formed, the department formed, to decide, you know, what to do, that was made up of some of my closest friends in the department, and hearing the anger and the betrayal in their voices. That is a sound I will never forget. How about this? It looked like going to the police station, I decl where I declined an attorney and answering every question because I had already made the decision that I was done hiding. It looked like accountability was being formally charged. It looked like being indicted. Yeah, it looked like being indicted. And it looked like facing the very real possibility of prison. And saying that, well, I earned whatever comes next. Accountability also looked like telling my girlfriend, my family, my children. And honestly, ⁓ this is where I I Kelsey Dunbar: You warned me. Michael V Crismali: It was tough because telling my children we were just talking about them, talking about the lessons they learned, telling my children may have been the hardest. Because ⁓ I had always taught them that when you make a mistake, you own it, right? You face the consequences. And then I had to sit them down and admit that their father had made a really, really serious mistake. So Real accountability is not just admitting what happened. It's allowing the truth to cost you something. And all of those instances cost me something. It's giving up control over how people respond, because you can't. Right? And it's accepting that some people will walk away. Right? Some won't understand. They won't ever. And that happened. Still people that haven't spoken to me to this day, all these years later. And it's also understanding that your honesty does not guarantee forgiveness. But there's something else that I learned. Accountability is painful because it removes the hiding place. But it's also really powerful because guess what's in the hiding place? That's where shame is, that's where it survives. So for me, accountability was the first painful step towards freedom. It didn't erase what I had done, but it gave me a chance to stop living in contradiction. And that's kind of where the rebuilding started for me. Boy, that's a loaded question. Kelsey Dunbar: Me with that one. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah. Michael V Crismali: Yeah, yeah. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, you pretty much just answered my next question in all honesty. But there's a couple of things I wanna say here, if it's okay, Kels, for the audience, because I want the correlation there. Kelsey Dunbar: Don't worry, I need to recover. Michael V Crismali: Me too, me too. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): The way you described earlier about how you got through this, I mean, that's you call radical acceptance. Okay. And the mental health field, right? Radical acceptance. I acknowledge the past. I can't change the past, but it doesn't define me. And I'm going to keep working towards my purpose. And I'm going to strive to be a better human being moving forward. They acknowledge it, not supposed to dwell, even though me sometimes I do dwell, but I got to remind myself of that all the time. Okay. That's not who I am right now. And then the other thing is like what you did by writing the letter and answering all those questions, you know, with open, honest and transparency. Again, in the mental health field, we talk about making amends. That's really what you did. And sometimes people accept those amends and sometimes they don't accept those amends. but you're getting that out and that's a healing process for the individual no matter what they're going through, whether it's what I went through, Kelsey went through, or obviously what you went through. And I want the audience to understand that because everybody's story is different, but the healing process, there's always going to be similarities. Michael V Crismali: We are not we are not unique in that regard. And you know, that that's an interesting thing too, because I think all of us can probably relate to at one point feeling like we were the only ones on the planet going through what we were going through. You know, and that's really that's that's part of that's part of what I think about now, you know, in terms of what I'm you know, what I'm doing, what my mission is, you know, talking about this with, you know, people is because I understand fundamentally that I'm not alone, that there's a lot of other people you know, going through similar circumstances. Even if the the the specific details are different, the feelings and the emotions are the same. You know, we're not unicorns. We are well we're all very unique or not unique in that regard. So yeah, very very fair point for sure. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I'd say when I talk to people or when Kelsey talks to people, everybody wants to focus on the differences. Why are stories different? Why I'm different than everybody else? I said, don't focus on the differences, focus on the similarities. Michael V Crismali: Definitely. And you know what's interesting? I I do a fair amount of work on TikTok of all things. ⁓ and and it's I I have found so one of the ways that I use the platform is I do these little like vote motivational videos that are all sort of drawn off of my own experiences. But you know what I've ended up falling into? I've falling into getting involved in a lot of recovery rooms. You know, people that had been battling addiction and alcoholism. And you know, I I dealt with a little alcoholism when I was younger, but that's not really I I deal with a different type of recovery and that's from identity. And so even though the stories, as you said, the details are very different, I vibe very well with these people because so much of what they experienced and the you know the mental anguish and you know the the the spiritual and all that resonates with me. So, you know, the exactly what you're saying is the case. We are we can all sort of relate because even though the details may be different, the feelings associated with it are not. And and so ⁓ you know that's that's what I've that's what I've experienced. It doesn't matter if we went through the exact same thing. In a lot of ways we're feeling the same stuff. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Absolutely. Kelsey Dunbar: So kinda wanna shift gears now more to the kind of the rebuilding ⁓ side of things. So, you know, after all this happens and the dust settles, so to speak, ⁓ how do you even begin rebuilding after something like that? I mean, and not just your reputation, but but you personally. Michael V Crismali: Yeah, I I I think I I think so I think you you begin by accepting that reputation and identity are not the same thing. I I think a lot of people might not understand that. See, reputation is what other people believe about you, but ⁓ identity is is what you're willing to rebuild, right, when there's no one there to reassure you. And this is something I understand very keenly now. But I had to learn, I had to learn that my if my healing depended on everyone seeing me differently, guess what? I wasn't going to heal. You know, I had to start rebuilding, as I said earlier, from the inside. So for me again, that first step was the brutal honesty. I had to stop trying to mentally rewrite what happened. I had to accept that what was done was done, and I can't go back and make, you know, make it not happen. And as we talked about, I wouldn't, I wouldn't if I could. You know, that sounds simple, but it's one of the hardest truths to sit with. Because the mind does want the escape hatch. You know, it wants to say, well, what if I had done this differently? What if the day never happened? You know. But healing doesn't begin in the what if, right? It begins with the what now. Right? Not the what if, the what now. So I had to stop confusing the accountability with self-destruction. Those two things, you know, that was that was big for me was understanding that, you know, I I could have one without the other. You know, I could own what I did without waking up every day, sentencing myself to a life of shame. Huge shift for me. Huge. Because if all I did was punish myself, then guess what I'm not doing? I'm not rebuilding a thing. I'm just staying trapped inside the wreckage, you know. So rebuilding myself meant making small decisions that restored trust with myself first. Because remember, I was doubting myself big time. So it meant telling the truth. It meant pausing before decisions, being a little more intentional. Asking, does this align with the man I want to become? You know, it meant living in a way where I no longer. To hide from myself and ⁓ what a different experience life is when you do that. Eventually, it meant using the story. You know, not to excuse it and certainly not to polish it, but to give it purpose. You know, because I believe this very deeply now. You don't rebuild yourself by erasing the past, right? You rebuild yourself by becoming someone that the past doesn't control anymore. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): That's beautifully said. So how did you learn all that stuff? I mean, were you getting guidance from like a spiritual advisor? Were you on a quest for knowledge and reading books about this or watching videos on YouTube, which is all the stuff that I did. I'm just curious, you know, what your take was on that. Michael V Crismali: Yeah, I ⁓ you know, I I don't think that I can necessarily point to any one thing. ⁓ this just sort of to I honestly I think the biggest driver for me was just this this this burning will I had, this burning desire I had inside to not, you know, to not live a life of anonymity anymore. I mean I I talked a lot, you know, about in the in the immediate aftermath in the immediate aftermath of having the news come out, that you know, the book is titled My Name Is. You know why? Well, because for a long time I refused to introduce myself to anyone. And if I did, it was ⁓ you know, I'm Mike. I might give him my full name because I know someone's gonna run off. Not someone, everyone. How about that? Everyone's gonna run off and go Google my name and find out that, you know, Mike's a thief, that he stole a bunch of money. Right? That's what they're gonna see. It's not who I am. You know? So, So yeah, that I spent ⁓ I spent a lot of time doing that, minimizing myself, and that's not who I ever was. You know, I they consider me the mayor. I go into a group of people and I have I come out with, you know, fifteen new friends. And so I'm I'm just I'm a personable individual and I lost all that. I was a shell of myself. You know what's funny? I I I don't I I talk about this story in the book. I'll I'll mention it briefly here. Do you know when the tipping point? I'll tell you what the tipping point is. Let me say it that way. The tipping point for me, ⁓ Ma May of twenty twenty three, May third to be exact or May fourth to be exact. I was I had just started my business. ⁓ Which is a whole nother story. I had to like re, you know, change my whole career because I couldn't be in the mortgage industry anymore because of what did. So I I started a business. And check this out. I'm sitting there creating an email signature for my new email. And this is the damnest thing you'll ever hear. People like don't I sat there trying to create an email signature. And do you know that I I didn't want to put my full name on it? An email signature. This was how I was going to be reaching out to new clients. And I had to sit there and say, I can't do this, right? If I put my full name, every client's going to get it and Google me first. I was going through this ridiculous, you know what mean? So I ended up, I I made the email signature. It said Mike C. And let me tell you, let me tell you, I was disgusted by it. disgusted. And so the drive that I had to try and rebuild was was it was like I poured nitrous, you know, like nitrous fuel or whatever you call it on that mission right then and there because I knew I I couldn't do this anymore. Something had to change. So it was a lot of personal motivation and this real desire. And what ended up happening was as I got further away from the incident, I I got my sea legs under me a little bit. You know, it's like anything else. They say time heals all wounds. I started to experience some of that. Even though I was still feeling it and still uncertain about the legal ramifications and all that other stuff. As I got further away, I got a little bit more energized. And that email signature thing put me over the edge. And from then from then on I knew that it was, you know, can't stop, won't stop. So I can't really point to any one particular thing. I just have this internal, this inner drive to, you know, figure the damn thing out because I didn't like life anymore. I like life now. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Yeah, completely respect and understand that for sure. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. So, you know, you've you started talking about the book and ⁓ and it's it's great that there are so many holes in this story of yours in this podcast, because people are gonna need to go fill them by buying your book, which ⁓ I've I've had the the pleasure of being able to read already and ⁓ it it's amazing. His story is amazing, and ⁓ as much as it it hurt me earlier to hear about what he was going through, the reason why it hurt me so much is because I've really gotten to know Mike as a person. And it it would have been excruciating to be his friend in that moment just because to experience that pain with him. I can't even imagine what that would have been like. ⁓ you know, even for me, much less for him. So ⁓ it's you know, wow, it was really powerful hearing that story. But ⁓ so now you're ⁓ you talked about that business that you started and it's a a speaking business. And that's actually how Mike and I got acquainted. It was through a speaking competition where he royally kicked my tuchis. ⁓ but ⁓ because he's such an amazing dynamic speaker. And ⁓ so he speaks publicly. ⁓ he even just landed a TEDx talk, which is a huge bucket list ⁓ for me someday. And I knew I wasn't ready and I was like, go get it, man. And he went out, he did the thing, he went through the process, ⁓ which it was a grueling process. I know the person that ⁓ mentored him through that, and Michael V Crismali: Ha ha ha. Yeah. Kelsey Dunbar: He put them through the ringer, but in all the best ways and brought the best out of these people. And so it does not surprise me at all that he landed this TED Talk. So I'm so proud of him. ⁓ but your book is about to release, ⁓ which you could be really excited about. I mean, certainly that's been a life changer for Mark and I. And ⁓ but and you're helping people through your story, which is awesome. So, at at what point did you start thinking that this was gonna become your purpose ⁓ ⁓ you just really kind of hit the gas and said, This is what I'm doing and this is what I'm gonna make in my life and this is who I am. Michael V Crismali: ⁓ yeah. I mean, you know, pain really started becoming purpose when I realized that my story could do something other than hurt me, you know, because that's all I was able to see in the beginning. ⁓ for a long time the story only felt like ⁓ evidence against me, right? It was something I regretted and the thing that I feared people finding because it was tied to shame. It was tied to embarrassment and the judgment and all that. So in the beginning I wasn't thinking necessarily about purpose. I was just trying to survive the weight of it. But what happened was, and I mentioned before about getting my sea legs, right? Over time I started to recognize as I as the sort of haze started to lift a little bit, I started to recognize that the very thing I wanted to hide was something that could actually help someone else feel less alone. And that was very strange. It was a strange thought process at first because it meant that the part of my story that I was most ashamed of might actually be the part that someone needed to hear. And that's interesting, right? I think the real turning point came when I stopped asking, how do I get away from this? And started asking, all right, how can I use this? You know, and and I don't mean that to say in a sleazy way or anything. How can I how can I take this and turn it into something that stands for something? And that question changed everything, right? Definitely didn't erase the pain, didn't minimize what happened, but it gave the pain some direction to go. You know, and pain without direction w will destroy you, but pain with purpose can transform you, which is exa hundred percent what happened. So speaking publicly, writing the book, getting the opportunity to grace the TEDx stage, all of that is meaningful, it is. But the deeper purpose really isn't about vis visibility, it's about usefulness. Remember, I've been talking all this time about this this call to service that I had. Well, I couldn't do it in the same way that I used to anymore for obvious reasons. But I can now. Right? If my story helps one person stop hiding, and guess what? It already has. One person to to separate shame from identity, which is a process I've gone through, you know, or one person to believe that their worst chapter doesn't have to become their final chapter, then the pain has been redeemed in some way. You know, so I don't believe that everything, you know happens for a reason in some simple or convenient way, but I I do believe that we can give meaning to what happened by what we choose to do next. You know? So and and that's that's what purpose became for me. It wasn't, you know, pretending the pain was good, but it w I it was my refusal to let the pain be wasted. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Very well said. Okay, so you answered my question. Yeah, no, you answered my next question. So I'm gonna drive Kelsey nuts and go completely rogue. Cause I really wanna know the answer to this one, okay? So obviously you've had a lot of success. way you carry yourself is completely different than your younger days. You had a lot of people talking shit about you publicly. Michael V Crismali: Yeah. Thought a lot about this. Great, love it. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Have you ever been in a room or walked in a room or walked in a restaurant and saw somebody that might have been like an adversary or talked a lot of shit about you in your present state? And if so, how did that interaction go now that they see you now? Michael V Crismali: So something interesting hap it's a great it's a great question. I wish I had like a really cool answer for it. I really don't, but I'll let me tell you so let me say it this way. One of the things that happened at the time that everything went on was I ended up during the time that the legal process was kind of playing it out playing out, which remember, this was twenty twenty two. Kelsey Dunbar: Mm-hmm. Michael V Crismali: So we were still on the throes of COVID. So everything just dragged on and took so long, which made it so much worse because I sat there just wondering all that time. Anyway, what one of the things that happened during that time, I actually moved away from the area that I was living in. It was just ⁓ the timing was so what ended up happening was I sort of ended up being removed from You know, from from the the the the epicenter, if you will, of what was going on. Because I do think that that would have happened quite a bit more. Now I did have a couple of instances because ⁓ my son is an avid travel soccer player, and he was part of a travel team that emanates from the town that we used to live in. And he's still a part of that team today, all these years later. And so I do find myself back in that area from time to time. And by the way, I don't avoid it on purpose or anything. I mean, maybe in the beginning I might have, but I don't anymore. I'm in a much better place mentally and and spiritually now. But I do occasionally run into some folks there. But ironically enough, the people that I've run into have kind of played it cool. But don't, don't, don't think that I haven't thought about what that might be because there's certain people that I know would be very outspoken and probably would, you know, say some things. And I've thought about how I might handle it. And at the end of the day, I'm so much more of an evolved person now than I was then. Had it happened then, I probably would have spouted off. Had it happened now, I've arrived at a place where I am eminently comfortable with the fact that people have a right to make the decision to feel how they want to feel about me. And one of the ways that I've been able to progress so much is because when you become okay with that, you stop letting it affect you. Are there people I miss? Absolutely. Absolutely. The the the relationships, the brotherhood that I had at this fire department was was you know meant everything to me. And I'm devastated by its loss. But I can't live in that world anymore. So if people have something to say, I'm gonna let them say it because You know, what do I have to gain? I'm on a much, much h you know, different trajectory now. You know, so unfortunately I don't have any good ones for you. But ⁓ you know, the few times that I've run into people who, you know, know about what happened back then, there wasn't really much said, just a a gentle acknowledgement, hey, how you doing? And I think part of it is because we were there for the kids type of deal, you know. But I haven't had that one big run in. Who knows, maybe it eventually it'll happen, but there won't be much to it when it does, 'cause I'm I'm sort of past all that now. And it's not that I don't care. I don't wanna make it seem like that. I do, but I just have to respect their wishes to feel how they're gonna feel. In some ways I kind of feel bad about the people who have walked away because they're missing the best part of who I am now. But that's okay, you know? So Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. So kinda kind of speaking of all that, you know, with everything that you've gone through and as Mark talks about the the the cow and the buffalo story and he's talked about that in previous podcasts, you know, obviously you thought the best way was to actually go into the storm as opposed to running away from it and so that way you could get through it. ⁓ And so you did that. But ⁓ now with the book Michael V Crismali: Great question. Kelsey Dunbar: you're kind of bringing it back a little bit because you're forcing yourself and making even more awareness to your story and that possible shame and and guilt and and thing like that things like that that you might be reliving through the process. Did you ever think about not writing the book? Michael V Crismali: Ho absolutely. Absolutely. This thought came through my mind many, many times. ⁓ it should be noted that the way the book came to be was, ⁓ I was I was charged officially on February seventh, twenty twenty two. On February tenth, three days later, I first put pen to paper. And it wasn't originally done with an idea towards making a book out of it. It was initially done to kinda journal what was going on because I was sort of reverting back to the way I was as a child. When I was a kid, that's kind of what I did. I wrote everything out. And so ⁓ I started writing and because I needed to kind of keep track of how I was feeling, what was going on. It was just my go to move. And what happened over the course of the four years that would follow was it it turned into this like, you know, this like blueprint because I started to experience some healing and when I really reflected back, that's how the reclaim, you know, blueprint came to be. Because when I really looked back at what happened, I had all these stages that were very identifiable to me. And when I put them together, that's what we came up with. So I considered right Not writing it many times ⁓ when I got closer to it. And it wasn't a casual thought either. I mean, there were real moments where I asked myself, do I actually want this story living out in the world in such a permanent way? Because, you know, speaking about it's one thing, right? Conversation moves through the air. But a book sits on a shelf somewhere, right? It can be picked up by anyone at any time, anywhere. And that permanence gave me a lot of pause. You know, there was There was this fear of being misunderstood because when you put a story like this out into the world, you lose control over how people receive it. You know, some people will see the accountability for sure and the transformation, and they'll appreciate it. But some will only see the mistake. And I had to be really, really honest with myself about it. But here's the deeper hesitation. It wasn't about me, it was the people that I love. Right? This story didn't only happen to me. My choices impacted other people. My family lived through the fallout. My girlfriend lived through the uncertainty, and my children had to process something that no child wants to hear about a parent. And by writing the book, I knew that I wasn't only revisiting the story for myself. I was in, you know, some ways asking them to relive it too. And that weighed heavily on me and you know, gave me pause about putting it out. You know, there's a a difference between owning your story and then dragging other people back through with the pain of it. You know, ⁓ my mother, God bless her, my mother is a wonderful woman, but I saw anytime this came up, I saw what it did to her. And so I had to consider that. I never wanted this book to feel like self-promotion at the expense of people who've already been hurt by what happened. So yeah, ⁓ that thought crossed my mind. But ultimately, ultimately, I came back to the reason the book needed to exist. See, I know what it feels like to believe that your worst decisions become your identity. I know what it feels like to shrink, as we've spoken about. I know what it's like to wonder whether your name will ever feel safe again. And I also knew there were people living inside that same kind of shame right now. So I had to ask myself a hard question, and I asked over and over again. Am I willing to be uncomfortable in my honesty if it helps someone breathe again? And the answer was a resounding yes every single time. So that's why I put it out. Kelsey Dunbar: Yeah. So my my follow-up to that, because you already kinda touched on it, but I'd like for you to expound on it. So, ⁓ the big question that, ⁓ every author, gets and with being authors ourselves, I'm gonna throw this back at you, you know, what do you hope people will take away from reading your book? Michael V Crismali: ⁓ yes. So Kelsey Dunbar: I mean, and especially the people who have gone through the the shame, regret, public perception, failure, addictions, mistakes, identity, all that stuff. Michael V Crismali: Mm-hmm. I ⁓ I hope people walk away from the book truly believing one thing ⁓ above all else, and that's that your you know your worst chapter may very well be real, but it doesn't have to be final. You know, and it matters, right? Because shame has a way of convincing people that they're permanently disqualified. Whether you struggle, or excuse me, whether the struggle is regret Or the public judgment, addiction failure, all the ones that you mentioned, you know, a mistake you can't take back. People can start to live ⁓ start to believe that the worst thing about them is the truest thing about them. And once that belief takes hold, man, it doesn't just change how they see the past. It changes how they imagine their future, which is not a good thing. And I want the book to interrupt that belief. So I don't want anyone to read it and think that mistakes don't matter. They do. Right? Choices have consequences. Accountability matters. Repair matters. But I want people to understand that accountability and hopelessness are not the same. You know, you can own what you did without surrendering the rest of your life to it. Man, that's ⁓ important to understand. So for people trapped in chain, I want the book to help them breathe again. Countering regret, I want you I want them to stop mentally living. In a moment they can't undo. You know, if you're feeling judged by the world, I want it to remind you that public perception is powerful, but it's not sacred. It's not the end-all be-all. You know, it's not always complete, and it's not always the final truth. And you know what? We talked before about me frequenting the recovery rooms and in TikTok and all. So for people struggling with addiction or failure, I want them to see that rebuilding isn't about becoming perfect. It's about becoming honest, present, consistent, and willing to take the next right step. All right. And for anyone who's lost their sense of identity, I want them to realize really that they're allowed to reclaim it. Right? That's what I want people to take away. It's not that my story is special, but that their story is still open. You know, the name, their name still has meaning, right? My name is. Their future still has room. And you know, even though the past can't be changed, their story is still being written. And I want ⁓ to remember that they hold the pen. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): ⁓ Kelsey Dunbar: Michael, man. Michael V Crismali: Ha ha. Kelsey Dunbar: and and I'll use your professional name there because ⁓ my god, we're talking about the book and you know, my name is and I'm just seeing your name, the author of the book, Michael Crismali. Dude, you do not have to hide from that name because you are giving an opportunity to ⁓ so many people to get out from behind the w the worst moments of their lives with book. And and I appreciate that so much. I mean, dealing with all the people that we have ⁓ talked ⁓ in our journey in in the last year, especially, ⁓ since our book came out. But then obviously Mark and I have been doing this type of thing for a very long time, long before we had a book. ⁓ what I respect the most about your willingness to have hard conversations publicly is, ⁓ you're trying to avoid the accountability, but you're you're showing people that a collapse doesn't have to mean the end of their story, right? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): No. Kelsey Dunbar: I I think a lot of people listening are gonna see pieces of themselves in this conversation. You know, maybe not the exact circumstances, but you know, earlier on when Mark was saying how much he saw some of the circumstances that he went through and similarities with you and and knowing Mark's story. I was sitting there thinking the exact same thing and and how much you guys actually do share in common that way. And certainly I've I've had my own moments ⁓ that I'm not proud of. And I try and tell people, you just you can't let that identify you. You can't you have to write your own story, not let other people write it for you. so the the shame, the regret, the the identity loss, the fear, the starting over, you know, those things are universal. They they affect everybody at some point in time. So, where can people your journey next? Like where can they connect with you? Where can they find out more information about your TEDx talk? What's what's the best way to keep in touch with Michael Crismali? Michael V Crismali: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, if ⁓ if you're on social media, I mean you can find me on ⁓ Facebook and LinkedIn specifically. And you do that just by searching my full name, which is kind of ironic, right? Michael V. Krismalli. You you search that, you'll find me. ⁓ as I mentioned before too, I've also developed a a really nice following on TikTok. And I do those motivational type of videos. But more importantly, I built a really nice community of some amazing people there. And so if you know if that's something that you're interested in, come find me there. Real simple, you type in mc dot the original. ⁓ and my screen name there is Fire Guy, kind of interesting. ⁓ that's just, you know, the the the nickname, if you will. Now outside of social media, you can go to my website, which is Legacyword Services, all one word, legacywordservices.com, and all of my contact information, such as phone, email, and even the social media links can all be found there. One item of note, the website will be going some doing some renovations in the near future, but all the information can be found there. And you know, all the updates on the book release, which should be soon, the TED Talk or TEDx Talk, ⁓ and upcoming events, they'll all be announced on all these platforms. So however you choose to connect. I also haven't mentioned YouTube yet, right? I haven't mentioned YouTube. ⁓ sometime after the book release and the TEDx, I'm planning something special related to the book that'll be happening on YouTube. But I'll have more on that towards the end of the summer. And Kelsey, if I can, and Mark, would it be okay? I just have one last thing I just want to say before we before we break. Is that cool? Okay. I this this specifically goes out to anyone who might be listening. If you are sitting there feeling like you are less than, because of something from your past that's holding you back, whether it's a mistake that you made or you made a left when you should have gone right, I need you to understand, I need you to hear me say that you don't have to go through it alone. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Whoa. Kelsey Dunbar: Absolutely. Michael V Crismali: Lean on the people who care for you. And if you feel you don't have anyone like that, you reach out to me. All right. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a counselor. I'm a guy who's been there. And I've experienced virtually every emotion that you're probably feeling right now. And I can't if I can't help you directly, I will help you find someone who can. Okay? But I'm I'm I implore you, don't settle for less because you think that's all you're worth. It's just not true. That's all. Kelsey Dunbar: Sound sounds familiar. So ⁓ yeah, I mean we we put ourselves out there all the time. So now now you've got three people here ⁓ that are willing to help you at any time. So in closing, I'm just gonna say if this conversation resonated with you, share it with someone who may need to hear it. honestly, I ⁓ I'm not even wait till after the show to tell these guys this. I honestly think this is our most powerful episode we've ever done. I I just do. I mean, that's just my own opinion. But ⁓ sometimes people need to hear the the reminder that their worst chapter just does not have to become their identity entirely, right? ⁓ It it's a moment, yeah, but it doesn't have to become your life. And if you're listening today ⁓ and feel stuck in shame or regret, guilt, ⁓ the weight of your past, ⁓ you're not beyond rebuilding. ⁓ And as always, as we like to say, ⁓ you're also not ⁓ and ⁓ you're just overloaded. But you don't have to stay stuck. All right. And we're living proof of that right here. So thank you so much for tuning into this episode. This has been amazing. And ⁓ I hope you enjoyed it too. So take care, everyone. Michael V Crismali: Thank you guys.