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S1E11: Bonus Episode: On Becoming Podcasters and Going Viral · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Michelle: Hey besties, it's Michelle.
• 0:02
  Michelle: Before we jump into today's episode, I wanted to drop a quick update.
• 0:07
  Michelle: Season one is officially a wrap.
• 0:10
  Michelle: We recorded 10 episodes, and we're definitely proud of what we built.
• 0:15
  Michelle: Season two is coming August 27th, and it's gonna go even deeper.
• 0:20
  Michelle: More nuance, more of the juicy stuff, and of course, more tools.
• 0:24
  Michelle: But between now and then, we're taking a short break to rest and get everything ready for you.
• 0:30
  Michelle: In the meantime, we're leaving you with this bonus episode Danielle and I recorded.
• 0:35
  Michelle: It's just the two of us talking about what it's actually been like to start this podcast together as best friends, what it's brought up in our friendship, what it was like going viral, facing our fears around social media, and putting ourselves out there in a totally new way.
• 0:51
  Michelle: It's definitely an honest one, so settle in, and we'll see you back here on August 27th for season two.
• 0:57
  Michelle: Enjoy.
• 0:58
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 1:03
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 1:08
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 1:15
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and voodoo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 1:23
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, a facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 1:28
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 1:32
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 1:40
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 1:43
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap, so we're pulling up a chair.
• 1:49
  Danyelle: Hi Dee.
• 1:50
  Danyelle: Hi, Mish.
• 1:51
  Danyelle: How are you?
• 1:52
  Danyelle: Ugh, I'm blessed.
• 1:55
  Danyelle: I feel really happy to be back with you.
• 1:57
  Michelle: Hashtag blessed.
• 1:58
  Michelle: Yes.
• 1:59
  Michelle: Words cannot express how happy I am to record season two.
• 2:04
  Danyelle: We did it.
• 2:05
  Michelle: We did it.
• 2:06
  Michelle: That is such a part of the whole thing.
• 2:10
  Danyelle: The whole thing.
• 2:11
  Michelle: Is we said, we keep saying this.
• 2:13
  Michelle: We said we were gonna do a thing and we did the thing.
• 2:16
  Danyelle: And throughout season one, we kept hearing that.
• 2:21
  Danyelle: People being like, oh wait, what 10 episodes recorded?
• 2:25
  Danyelle: All of them?
• 2:26
  Danyelle: Oh, they're gonna come out weekly.
• 2:28
  Danyelle: What wow.
• 2:30
  Michelle: And I think it's really important to celebrate that because it wasn't a small thing.
• 2:38
  Michelle: If you could see, we're you can't see.
• 2:41
  Michelle: But everything you can't see is surrounded by uh soundproofing and hanging blankets, and it's a real it's a real effort to get it all figured out, and we did, and we learned a lot.
• 2:54
  Danyelle: We learned so much.
• 2:56
  Danyelle: Maybe you noticed that the uh video quality is a notch higher.
• 3:00
  Michelle: I know, and now we're like, oh, you can see the lint and the stain on my shirt.
• 3:06
  Michelle: So I raised okay, yeah.
• 3:08
  Michelle: Oh, don't even get me started.
• 3:10
  Michelle: But we've learned a lot, and we wanted to record just a little bonus here about recording the first season and what it has been like to do some of the shadow work of social media influencing.
• 3:27
  Danyelle: I feel like you and I have had a little bit of a different experience there.
• 3:32
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 3:33
  Danyelle: My shadow work has been having to do the work in friendship.
• 3:40
  Danyelle: And I'll be like really honest about that, right?
• 3:42
  Danyelle: I talked about it throughout season one and was really open about kind of finding my avoidance attachment style.
• 3:52
  Danyelle: And yes, the social media stuff is just grueling and it's a lot.
• 3:58
  Danyelle: But one of the things that I I am a better friend because of season one.
• 4:04
  Danyelle: I really feel like I was able to hone in on some of the things that because of our distance, because life, because of baby and wife and partners and work, we didn't have to do that work.
• 4:21
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 4:21
  Danyelle: But you know, we were in this space for a week straight.
• 4:27
  Danyelle: We meet twice a week for hours.
• 4:30
  Danyelle: We text constantly.
• 4:34
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 4:35
  Danyelle: And so for me, it really has been this like, oh, I can do this.
• 4:41
  Danyelle: It has been a really beautiful invitation, as we've said, to do it in other relationships too.
• 4:49
  Danyelle: And that feels very surprising to me.
• 4:53
  Danyelle: I don't know that going in, I thought I would have so much internal transformation, at least like awareness of that.
• 5:04
  Danyelle: And yeah, like I absolutely feel safer with you.
• 5:11
  Danyelle: I feel like we've leveled up.
• 5:15
  Michelle: And up and up and up beyond even where we might have wanted to go.
• 5:20
  Danyelle: We don't even know where the top is.
• 5:23
  Danyelle: And that has just felt really special.
• 5:25
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 5:26
  Danyelle: It's it's felt really again unexpected, but I'm so grateful.
• 5:30
  Danyelle: I mean, I think that's why like I do.
• 5:32
  Danyelle: I feel blessed because we've worked together before.
• 5:36
  Danyelle: I mean, y'all have y'all heard in our Life Stages episode, you heard all of our journey together.
• 5:45
  Danyelle: And yeah, I'm probably biased, but this takes the cake.
• 5:49
  Michelle: It's a different kind of work.
• 5:50
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 5:51
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 5:51
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 5:52
  Michelle: I'm glad you said all of that because I mean, this conversation is truly happening live.
• 5:57
  Michelle: Like I hadn't heard you voice it in that way before.
• 6:01
  Michelle: And I'm having a very similar, same, same but different experience.
• 6:06
  Michelle: But the places where normally distance is the solution isn't working anymore because it can't be.
• 6:15
  Michelle: And it's also a reminder that it's actually often not the solution, it's avoidance.
• 6:21
  Michelle: Oof.
• 6:21
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 6:22
  Michelle: And so where we would normally just not see each other, not talk about it and allow for that to dissipate whatever might be coming up, we're being forced to face it again and again.
• 6:35
  Michelle: Um, and it's interesting because I do wonder sometimes, are we just very passionate people?
• 6:41
  Michelle: Yes.
• 6:42
  Michelle: Is our friendship unique and special?
• 6:44
  Michelle: Yes.
• 6:45
  Michelle: But we do have stuff come up and misunderstandings.
• 6:47
  Michelle: Like there is something in the way that we attach that's familial, ancestral, that's uh and triggering sometimes that we bring out the best in each other, but it's because we're so different in some ways that when we're working together to create something new that hasn't been done before, that neither of us have been done before, it brings up a lot.
• 7:15
  Michelle: There's so much vulnerability.
• 7:18
  Michelle: And one of the things we talked about today before we turned on the recording equipment is just the newness of it all of sitting down every day where for the last 15 to 20 years I know exactly what I'm gonna do.
• 7:32
  Michelle: And I sit at my desk, I sit down, I do my job, every hour to minute is often accounted for.
• 7:38
  Michelle: And then this new brave new world, I don't always know what's gonna come of it or if I'm any good at all.
• 7:46
  Michelle: And so sometimes we're also caught in the crosshairs of each other's figuring it out of this moment, if you will.
• 7:54
  Danyelle: Completely.
• 7:55
  Danyelle: And I think it's really it's really brought out things that have surprised us in ways.
• 8:04
  Danyelle: I am definitely more the one that is like doo-doo, in the clouds, very laissez-faire.
• 8:13
  Michelle: What will be will be.
• 8:14
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 8:15
  Danyelle: Um, except when it's not.
• 8:18
  Michelle: Except when it's not.
• 8:19
  Danyelle: And I we had lots of conversations over season one around just that realization.
• 8:27
  Danyelle: And some of that is right, that is a part of my shadow work.
• 8:31
  Danyelle: Why do I feel like I need to be so prepared when I walk into a space and the trauma and lived experience that has gotten me there, and how that's a part of me that I cover.
• 8:44
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 8:44
  Danyelle: That I pretend that those things aren't important to me.
• 8:48
  Danyelle: And there's been some times of you're like, yeah, like let's just go.
• 8:51
  Danyelle: And I'm like, no, no.
• 8:54
  Michelle: But speaking to growth, even just now, you were like, Oh yeah, no, we're doing the bonus episode.
• 8:59
  Michelle: I was like, okay, yeah, we don't have we don't have our map laid out, we're gonna sit down and talk.
• 9:04
  Michelle: But there is some of it that's now, I think, or I don't want to speak for you, but it feels rooted in trust, not only in me, but in yourself.
• 9:14
  Michelle: And now that we have this track record of learning and sort of knowing how it's not only gonna feel when we sit down and talk, but also how it will feel when we release it.
• 9:24
  Michelle: And frankly, being just really proud of the work that we've done.
• 9:29
  Michelle: Not that it's just good enough, but that it's a podcast we would listen to and enjoy and learn from.
• 9:36
  Michelle: And so, like, here we are with real life in your face growth.
• 9:42
  Danyelle: In the moment, it's it's happening.
• 9:45
  Michelle: This is not this is not fake.
• 9:47
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 9:48
  Michelle: I'm excited to dive into that this season.
• 9:50
  Michelle: Our arc is getting more nuancedy.
• 9:53
  Michelle: In season one, we really laid into the foundation and the fundamentals not only of friendship, but also of the kind of work and the kind of lens that we view relationships through.
• 10:06
  Michelle: And in this season, we get into some more nuanced topics around working together, around queerness and the ways that we relate in very specific instances.
• 10:18
  Michelle: So I look forward to kind of digging in in that way.
• 10:21
  Michelle: We'll still be offering tools, but I think the stories will get juicier too.
• 10:26
  Danyelle: Yeah, I think it's like an onion, right?
• 10:29
  Danyelle: A big part of season one was introducing y'all to us, us to y'all, as well as a little bit of figuring it out.
• 10:41
  Danyelle: Season one was what we do best, create and hold space, provide resources, tools, information, lived experience, guidance.
• 10:53
  Danyelle: And season two, we're peeling back the onion.
• 10:56
  Danyelle: We're getting a little bit deeper in our relationship and the relational ways in which that can be really nuanced.
• 11:08
  Danyelle: It can be really dynamic.
• 11:10
  Danyelle: One of the things that we talked about earlier is like these are our stories.
• 11:14
  Danyelle: We're not speaking for every identity that we're carrying as like this is the story.
• 11:20
  Michelle: Right.
• 11:20
  Danyelle: Um, and I think that is really unique.
• 11:23
  Danyelle: We have navigated so much as friends, and through that, we've learned and being able to create the space to say, this is just one way.
• 11:35
  Danyelle: And I feel like season two dives deeper there.
• 11:38
  Michelle: But I also am so appreciative of the feedback that we've received, that our stories are really aligning and resonating with folks, that it doesn't matter how different you are, what part of the country or world you're in, and also even just from our own mutual acquaintances, that what we're saying is is landing and is feeling really helpful.
• 12:00
  Michelle: And then they're applying it in real time and getting feedback.
• 12:04
  Michelle: And that has been powerful because one of the things I said to a friend last week was I sometimes wonder if I'm enjoying it so much because it's our stories.
• 12:14
  Michelle: But she's like, no, it's completely relevant, and also you're offering these tools, and it reminded me of my friendship in this way, and then went on to say how she was able to apply.
• 12:26
  Michelle: So that's been powerful.
• 12:27
  Michelle: And we also wanted to take a bit of time, speaking of peeling back the onion, to talk about what it's been like to record and to be more present on socials.
• 12:38
  Michelle: I know that your reflection was around what it's brought up within our friendship and continuing to learn and grow from our own tools and work, which actually makes all the sense in the world because when we talk about being in the work, it's genuinely so hard to ignore when you're constantly facing your own shadows and challenges and triggers, and also being introduced to tools.
• 13:03
  Michelle: And so then when they face you again and again, you're like, oh, it's very front of mind, it's top of mind because I'm so in it.
• 13:09
  Michelle: And so I agree with that.
• 13:11
  Michelle: And on my end, and diving into more of a specific the social media is bringing up that I have a certain taste level, but my talent hasn't quite caught up to it with respect to being able to produce the kinds of content that I like to enjoy.
• 13:27
  Michelle: And we want the image to be a certain quality and the hook to hook you in and to be introducing ourselves to the right kind of audience.
• 13:36
  Michelle: And the algorithm, the capital A algorithm is still this mystery and is changing all of the time.
• 13:45
  Michelle: And there's so many tools and so many influencers who want to help you, and so much stuff on the internet that it just becomes who and when to ask for help.
• 13:54
  Michelle: And I can do it myself if I just carve out this time, but it is an overwhelming space for me.
• 14:01
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 14:01
  Danyelle: It is for me too.
• 14:03
  Danyelle: I think where our experiences diverge a little bit is through the witchy femme, I have had some like, okay, I'm gonna do some posting and some lives.
• 14:15
  Danyelle: And it feels it feels less scary for me.
• 14:20
  Danyelle: When and then I don't know if that's the adjective that you would use for yourself.
• 14:24
  Danyelle: And I think there is this like inner rebel that's like, whatever.
• 14:29
  Danyelle: Sure, sure.
• 14:30
  Danyelle: That's where you know I appreciate you as my tether in that because it is important, yeah.
• 14:38
  Danyelle: It's very important.
• 14:39
  Michelle: I I think scary sometimes, but more that there's a critique I have of myself that there's this need to be not just good, but really good, or the best, or so good that you wouldn't even know that we just started this six weeks ago.
• 14:58
  Michelle: And so I think that's it.
• 15:00
  Michelle: It's being faced with this perfectionism and like, is it okay for me to be new at something?
• 15:06
  Michelle: And also when you get excited and when you're a fiery Aries initiator like I am, and you're excited for this world that we're building that we know can look a certain way, you want it to start right away.
• 15:21
  Michelle: Yeah, and so that's what I'm sitting with and growing in is CTFO, chill the fuck out.
• 15:30
  Michelle: I'm like, what are those letters?
• 15:33
  Michelle: Um, chill chill out and let the process unfold, learn and try and enjoy it because at some point we'll look back at this period with such tenderness.
• 15:46
  Michelle: And hopefully we will have grown since then, even just in the past six weeks.
• 15:50
  Michelle: We've learned so much.
• 15:52
  Michelle: I could teach someone how to launch a podcast, frankly.
• 15:55
  Michelle: But I guess it's just fear of my own failure.
• 16:01
  Danyelle: One of the things that I said about why I want to start the hashtag get yourself a cap rising is with the witchy fam, I remember posting six months in.
• 16:16
  Danyelle: Thank you to my 300 followers.
• 16:19
  Danyelle: And it has been six weeks, and we have over 300 followers.
• 16:23
  Danyelle: And so it's helpful for me because that rebel inside wants to kind of bump up against and say it doesn't matter.
• 16:31
  Michelle: Right.
• 16:32
  Danyelle: But it does, as you said, and I'm appreciative of the work that we get to do together when our shadows meet.
• 16:40
  Danyelle: It allows growth.
• 16:41
  Danyelle: And I don't think we talk about that a lot.
• 16:43
  Danyelle: We talk about doing shadow work, bringing the shadows into the light, but our shadows are there for a reason.
• 16:49
  Danyelle: They're there to keep us protected.
• 16:51
  Danyelle: And my rebel shadow really comes from I didn't feel smart.
• 16:58
  Danyelle: I didn't feel good enough.
• 17:00
  Danyelle: And so it was better just to be like, whatever, I'm never going to be, so I could find safety in myself, right?
• 17:06
  Danyelle: If I'm never gonna be that, nobody in any space I walk into could tell me anything different.
• 17:12
  Danyelle: I already know.
• 17:13
  Danyelle: And what you've introduced is this idea of one, you're a badass.
• 17:20
  Danyelle: And two, let's do this.
• 17:23
  Danyelle: We can do this.
• 17:24
  Danyelle: I'm thinking about an anecdote of how good it feels to get external validation.
• 17:30
  Danyelle: And how sometimes when you don't get that a lot, or when you didn't get that a lot in your fundamental years, you don't seek that as much.
• 17:39
  Danyelle: And that's very much my experience.
• 17:41
  Danyelle: And we've had all of these really beautiful moments where we've been able to get that external validation, and I'm just like, fuck you.
• 17:50
  Michelle: Swimming in it.
• 17:52
  Michelle: Um, and it feels, yeah, it feels good.
• 17:54
  Michelle: It also hits differently.
• 17:56
  Michelle: And you would be more familiar with this again through the Witch EFM and Witch and Healer, but this is one of my first time really jumping in with both feet into building something new from scratch that's more representative of me.
• 18:12
  Michelle: Because most people aren't like, oh my God, you're director of strategy.
• 18:16
  Michelle: Great job.
• 18:17
  Michelle: That's amazing.
• 18:18
  Michelle: Tell me what you're up to.
• 18:19
  Michelle: Show me your last presentation.
• 18:20
  Michelle: Like it's it's a job, you know.
• 18:22
  Michelle: And that's not to say that people who care about me don't care about what I do, but when you're building something, there's a bit of mystery around it.
• 18:31
  Michelle: Where will it go?
• 18:32
  Michelle: How did you come up with the idea?
• 18:34
  Michelle: Is this for real?
• 18:35
  Michelle: I wouldn't doubt that some of the posts and reposts are also a bit annoying, you know, as we figure it out it all out.
• 18:43
  Michelle: Um, but yeah, that that validation and acknowledgement hits different in this season, I think.
• 18:50
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 18:51
  Danyelle: I just have to say I'm really excited for you.
• 18:55
  Danyelle: I know that is excitement as us, like for us, but again, this adventure, this really beautiful baby we are birthing, maybe toddler now.
• 19:10
  Danyelle: It's really pushing us.
• 19:12
  Danyelle: And it's pushing us in ways that if we had stayed in the places we were, we wouldn't experience that.
• 19:19
  Danyelle: When you speak to the prior, I knew what I was doing from the moment I woke up to the moment I got off of work minute by minute, and how there's comfort there, and how you're it's a rebirth, you're relearning how to be in this space.
• 19:40
  Danyelle: And I don't think a lot of people get to have that experience.
• 19:44
  Danyelle: A thousand percent.
• 19:45
  Danyelle: I think a lot of people find their lane and they stay in it.
• 19:48
  Danyelle: I talk about it as like getting on the train, we're all on the train and we just go.
• 19:53
  Danyelle: We don't think about it, and that is very the society we live in.
• 20:00
  Danyelle: I think it's really beautiful for you.
• 20:02
  Michelle: Thank you.
• 20:03
  Michelle: It's funny because as you were diving into that last thought, it's so best friend coded because I'm like, what is underneath you saying you're proud of me?
• 20:14
  Michelle: Is like bitch, it's gonna be fine.
• 20:17
  Michelle: I'm so proud of you.
• 20:19
  Michelle: You're doing great.
• 20:20
  Michelle: Don't give up.
• 20:21
  Michelle: It's fine.
• 20:22
  Michelle: You're fine.
• 20:23
  Michelle: Stop it.
• 20:24
  Michelle: That's what I'm hearing as you're saying all these beautiful things.
• 20:27
  Michelle: I'm like, she's calling me out on my shit, and I receive.
• 20:32
  Michelle: Noted, thank y'all.
• 20:34
  Danyelle: It's giving the like key and peel like translator.
• 20:39
  Danyelle: Yeah, literally.
• 20:41
  Michelle: I'm so proud of you, bitch.
• 20:43
  Michelle: What is your fucking problem?
• 20:45
  Michelle: Yeah, 100%.
• 20:46
  Michelle: Yes, I heard it.
• 20:48
  Michelle: I heard it.
• 20:50
  Michelle: Received.
• 20:52
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 20:52
  Michelle: Um, very important to note and discuss we went viral.
• 20:58
  Michelle: We went uh I think it was our eighth or ninth post period.
• 21:04
  Michelle: And what's so funny to me is that the episode was about race, where if you've been listening along, you know that it was very much about our unique story around being in a cross-racial friendship, where our intersectionality overlapped, where it didn't, and how getting into our 30s throughout COVID, where there was more of a cultural conversation around what it means to be black in America, that it cracked open parts of our friendship that needed mending or tending.
• 21:38
  Michelle: And we offered tools and resources, but we really were offering up our story as a testament or something that people might learn from, find something of themselves in.
• 21:52
  Michelle: But the post that went viral was so it's just such a small piece of that.
• 21:58
  Michelle: It's not even the thing that.
• 22:00
  Michelle: I would have guessed it was when you said that cross-racial friendships are labor, but that it's a labor of love, of reciprocity, of learning.
• 22:10
  Michelle: Ultimately, meaning every relationship is labor.
• 22:14
  Michelle: Every single one should have an element of additional consideration because if we walk into every room assuming everyone's having the same experience as us, you're not going to be very popular or have very rich relationships.
• 22:28
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 22:29
  Danyelle: And wow, that was surprising.
• 22:32
  Michelle: That we found the underbelly of Donald Trump's internet.
• 22:36
  Michelle: No gracias.
• 22:37
  Danyelle: It was, I just remember, you know, because yeah, it was it was very early on.
• 22:44
  Danyelle: And so I had an idea of what our numbers were looking like in terms of posts and views and shares.
• 22:51
  Danyelle: And it was just like something is happening very quickly.
• 22:56
  Danyelle: And I remember texting you and saying, there's like a weird comment.
• 23:03
  Danyelle: Should I delete it?
• 23:05
  Danyelle: Yeah, should I delete it?
• 23:06
  Danyelle: And then I was like, you know, I'm just gonna like engage and like keep it real, you know, like heard and blah blah blah.
• 23:13
  Danyelle: And then it was like, Michelle, there are a lot more weird comments.
• 23:19
  Danyelle: I am the quintessential night owl, and I remember texting her.
• 23:24
  Danyelle: It was an ungodly hour in the morning, and I was like, I'm about to go to bed and we're at 30,000 views.
• 23:31
  Danyelle: And I was like up for another hour, and I was like, texting again.
• 23:35
  Danyelle: It's been an hour and it's been 10,000 more views.
• 23:39
  Michelle: Yeah, when we met that night, it was like 12 or 13,000.
• 23:44
  Michelle: By the time our meeting was over, it was 16.
• 23:46
  Michelle: By the time I went to bed, it was 18.
• 23:48
  Michelle: And then within the next several days, we jumped up to over 700,000, 750,000 views, 2600 comments, yeah, like 70,000 shares.
• 24:00
  Michelle: Yeah, and a lot of the shares were like these fucking bitches.
• 24:04
  Michelle: Like we really did find a male audience, a white audience, an international audience, interestingly, sort of commenting on why do you make everything about race?
• 24:18
  Michelle: And this is some woke bullshit, and being friends with you would be labor.
• 24:22
  Michelle: You wouldn't even know labor.
• 24:25
  Michelle: Oh my goodness, that part.
• 24:26
  Michelle: The only thing you two are good at is putting calories in your face.
• 24:29
  Michelle: I'm like, I'm very good at that, actually.
• 24:32
  Michelle: You look like some for me.
• 24:33
  Michelle: You look like a female Peter Griffin.
• 24:36
  Michelle: I was like, touche, and not wrong.
• 24:38
  Michelle: It was a very close-up shot of my face, but I digressed.
• 24:42
  Danyelle: It was I just yeah, you know, it's interesting because when we see viral things on the side of the internet we live on, it's very different.
• 24:54
  Danyelle: Totally.
• 24:55
  Danyelle: And so I was like, well, you know, no, like people being bad.
• 25:00
  Michelle: Oh, yes, you know, like like oh, oh, like the person who was like, I reported five families to ICE and they're getting deported.
• 25:10
  Michelle: And then our side of the internet was like, and now I will hex you.
• 25:13
  Michelle: Yes, correct.
• 25:14
  Michelle: And here is my spell, and you are not hexed, and everybody.
• 25:22
  Danyelle: Yeah, that is that is the viral, yeah.
• 25:26
  Danyelle: And in some of the comments, like, you know, people were like, well, one, there was a lot of reshares or shares to story, and then people would, you know, put comments about us or about the statement.
• 25:38
  Danyelle: And I was just like, oh, this is oh, it was just a little mind-boggling because one relationships are labor.
• 25:48
  Danyelle: We talk about this, like this is a part of the TTT.
• 25:51
  Danyelle: They should be.
• 25:53
  Danyelle: They should be, they should be.
• 25:55
  Danyelle: This is a part of the TTT uh thesis pillar.
• 26:01
  Michelle: If you reason for being, if it's not challenging, are you working?
• 26:08
  Michelle: If you're not doing the work, do you care?
• 26:11
  Michelle: Are you investing?
• 26:12
  Michelle: Are you growing?
• 26:13
  Michelle: Are you getting the richness out of that relationship that you could without trying to grow together, implement tools to understand each other, to offer gifts to each other?
• 26:26
  Michelle: And I mean gifts in so many ways.
• 26:29
  Michelle: It could literally be I listened to you, and here is your matcha with oat milk unsweetened, you know, and but it's not the matcha that's the gift, it's that I've listened and I know you and or I know you would like to become prepared today.
• 26:44
  Michelle: And so I have prepared in the way that I know works for you and then therefore works for us.
• 26:49
  Michelle: And if you are not putting it, like that's quote unquote work, and that's what's so boggling is they took it so literally.
• 26:58
  Michelle: Friendship shouldn't be work.
• 26:59
  Michelle: Like, bitch, what?
• 27:02
  Michelle: What are you doing?
• 27:03
  Michelle: Okay, wait, but I have to say, I engaged with the hater.
• 27:06
  Michelle: Yeah, this is a good story.
• 27:08
  Michelle: I engaged with one hater.
• 27:10
  Michelle: Shout out.
• 27:11
  Michelle: Because I'm gonna send this to him.
• 27:13
  Michelle: He came into our DMs, he came into the DMs, which is don't bold, don't fucking DM me unless you want to chat.
• 27:20
  Michelle: That's what that means.
• 27:22
  Michelle: Very early in the morning.
• 27:23
  Michelle: Direct message.
• 27:24
  Michelle: I have a direct message.
• 27:26
  Michelle: I was like, okay, because I'm feeling fired up and protective as well, because you were the one speaking in that clip and catching a bulk of the commentary.
• 27:37
  Michelle: And so I thought to myself, let me, I like to just click on some of the messages and see who is this human.
• 27:43
  Michelle: Is it a bot?
• 27:44
  Michelle: Is this person even real?
• 27:45
  Michelle: Do they have any posts?
• 27:46
  Michelle: Click on this human, has kids roughly the same age as mine, has some post-sent Mirror Woods, has like a nose ring, looks like a normal enough person that I would be friends with, frankly.
• 27:58
  Michelle: And so I messaged, oh, so before I messaged him, I did like a quick Google search.
• 28:03
  Michelle: You know, stay safe out there.
• 28:05
  Michelle: Found a sound cloud from when he was probably a teenager.
• 28:09
  Michelle: It's like him wearing some baggy pants with some other like kid.
• 28:12
  Michelle: And his message in our DMs was you should get a new hobby, something like that.
• 28:17
  Michelle: Like powerful enough, had to DM us.
• 28:21
  Michelle: And so I Google this guy and I find his sound cloud.
• 28:24
  Michelle: 12 followers.
• 28:28
  Michelle: 12.
• 28:28
  Michelle: 12.
• 28:29
  Michelle: So I sent him the link and I said, Is this you?
• 28:32
  Michelle: And he said, ha ha, yeah.
• 28:34
  Michelle: And I was like, hobbies are tough, huh?
• 28:38
  Michelle: Yeah, don't fuck with me.
• 28:40
  Michelle: Do not.
• 28:41
  Michelle: But we proceeded to have a back and forth about like, I have to ask, what was so upsetting about this?
• 28:47
  Michelle: And he was like, It's just, I get so frustrated when people make everything about race, and I have so many friends, and it's not more work to be friends with someone of a different color, and like I don't understand.
• 29:02
  Michelle: And so I'm like, okay, heard.
• 29:05
  Michelle: And I'm not saying it's more work, we're talking about it at large, and I won't repeat all the things we just talked about, but I kind of was sharing with him that it's about our experience, and he's like, Well, you know, it's like if I had a friend that was in a car accident, like maybe I would be more careful when they get in the car, or I don't talk about car accidents in front of them because it's triggering.
• 29:27
  Michelle: And I'm like, Yeah, babe, that's exactly what I'm saying.
• 29:30
  Michelle: Exactly.
• 29:31
  Michelle: Because it's work, you care, you put in a little extra effort for the people that you love.
• 29:37
  Michelle: And then he goes, Oh, well, okay then.
• 29:40
  Michelle: And then he's like, Well, you guys seem really cool, like cool ladies.
• 29:44
  Michelle: I hope you have a great 4th of July.
• 29:45
  Michelle: And I'm like, babe, are you lonely?
• 29:48
  Michelle: Yes.
• 29:48
  Michelle: Are you just so lonely?
• 29:50
  Michelle: I don't get like why you wake up and choose violence in that way.
• 29:56
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 29:57
  Michelle: And there was a lot of I was like, who's getting it today?
• 30:03
  Danyelle: You know, I think that is the that's the thing, right?
• 30:07
  Danyelle: When we started to peel back, I didn't engage with anybody in our DMs, but I definitely trolled some of the trolls.
• 30:15
  Danyelle: It's just like, wow, wow, this is this is where we are.
• 30:19
  Danyelle: This is a this is a slice of where we are.
• 30:22
  Danyelle: And one thing we haven't said explicitly is so many of the comments were just so blatantly racist.
• 30:28
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 30:29
  Danyelle: And, you know, the first couple days, I I freaked out.
• 30:34
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 30:34
  Danyelle: I was like, should we delete it?
• 30:37
  Danyelle: I don't know what to do.
• 30:38
  Danyelle: I feel uncomfortable.
• 30:39
  Danyelle: And like you do hear about people getting docs, people, you know, I'm public, right?
• 30:44
  Danyelle: Like I have a business, I do therapy, you know, there is this uh yeah, just that too much.
• 30:54
  Michelle: Truly feeling unsafe.
• 30:56
  Michelle: And also this very confronting both things that I hope you've never heard before, and also the repeat of your worst nightmares that someone might be thinking about you in writing in front of your face.
• 31:13
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 31:14
  Danyelle: And we know the protections are not there.
• 31:17
  Danyelle: Like that is that is real.
• 31:19
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 31:19
  Danyelle: Um, and I appreciated that the first two days you had tethers, and then I got over my hump, and then you were like, all right, yeah, let's go.
• 31:33
  Michelle: I was at the Marin County Fair, and everyone was on the rides, and I was just like scrolling and deleting and hiding, and it was because you had named the discomfort and some of the fear, and we had talked about should we hide it, and it felt like the floodgates opened after that.
• 31:54
  Michelle: And so I know that me hiding the comments isn't in any physical way actually protecting you, but I just felt like it's sad.
• 32:06
  Michelle: It's sad that our intention for the conversation is to offer our vulnerability as a way to connect and that it's being received in this way.
• 32:18
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 32:18
  Michelle: And I think that that interaction with that one person, and I think you had a couple like this too, is it immediately becomes more human.
• 32:27
  Michelle: You're a real person, we're having a real conversation, and it's just not that deep.
• 32:31
  Michelle: It really doesn't have to be, or you can tell me how you feel, like without using the R-word.
• 32:36
  Michelle: Oh my goodness.
• 32:37
  Michelle: Ridiculous.
• 32:38
  Michelle: I didn't know that was still a thing.
• 32:40
  Michelle: I'm like, are we in third grade?
• 32:42
  Danyelle: In the 90s?
• 32:43
  Danyelle: Literally, it I do want to say the protection, I felt so grateful.
• 32:53
  Danyelle: Because there was a moment where I was just like late at night, and I'm just like, oh my goodness, like this is this is what happens.
• 33:03
  Michelle: And I'm gonna I'm gonna name it.
• 33:06
  Michelle: There were like there were pictures of gorillas, there were like talking about Valley Girl voice.
• 33:13
  Michelle: They were like, you both have never done any labor in your life, but you're both on welfare, like it was get a real job.
• 33:20
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 33:21
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 33:21
  Michelle: I'm just saying that to put context to the kinds of conversations that were going on.
• 33:27
  Michelle: Some of it was just absolutely ridiculous, but then some of it is really rooted in some deep racist storytelling that our country has subscribed to.
• 33:36
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 33:37
  Michelle: Because the idea that neither of us have ever worked is the biggest lol of my life because we've been working since we were like 13.
• 33:44
  Michelle: Underage when we couldn't work.
• 33:45
  Michelle: Literally.
• 33:46
  Michelle: 12 at my mom's packing company.
• 33:50
  Danyelle: I was very appreciative because I didn't see a lot of them.
• 33:53
  Danyelle: And actually, other people had reached out, and I didn't know.
• 33:57
  Danyelle: I didn't know Michelle was at the fair hiding all the comments.
• 34:00
  Danyelle: I was busy.
• 34:01
  Danyelle: Stay busy.
• 34:02
  Danyelle: Yeah, I was really appreciative of that.
• 34:04
  Danyelle: I did feel like that was this layer of protection of like, I just saw this clip of Leslie Jones talking about how like if white people care about us as black people, we need you to show up and protect us.
• 34:20
  Danyelle: We need you to show up in these really specific ways.
• 34:22
  Danyelle: And that's how I felt.
• 34:24
  Danyelle: You know, like I and and I was like, maybe she doesn't understand because you know, she's white, right?
• 34:30
  Danyelle: Like that's real, you know, and and that's why I was like, I I'm feeling I'm feeling uncomfortable.
• 34:36
  Michelle: No, and and to be clear, I I don't.
• 34:39
  Michelle: And I never unf I never will.
• 34:41
  Michelle: I say unfortunately just because I always want to connect with you, but like that's real.
• 34:45
  Michelle: I can only have empathy and I can only listen and try and throw my body in front of it to the extent that I can.
• 34:52
  Michelle: And the fuckery of capitalism of the and of the whole situation is but it's better to keep the comments open and it's better to go viral even if it's bad.
• 35:02
  Michelle: And so we're now that is part of this lifestyle is opening yourself up to that for the algorithm gods.
• 35:12
  Danyelle: That's a part of my shadow work.
• 35:14
  Danyelle: Yeah, that's a part of my shadow work because I was like, shut it down.
• 35:17
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 35:18
  Danyelle: And I think it was to again, that is fear when we we talked in our race episode about the reasons why I was raised the way I was, the reasons why we settled in Marin or my parents settled in Marin.
• 35:32
  Danyelle: Because of safety.
• 35:34
  Danyelle: And so I'm very grateful that through through that, maybe I'm grateful, maybe I am grateful that it happened early.
• 35:44
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 35:44
  Danyelle: Ripped the band-aid off.
• 35:46
  Danyelle: Great.
• 35:47
  Danyelle: We can get through this.
• 35:48
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 35:48
  Danyelle: And we did talk about it.
• 35:50
  Danyelle: I was like, well, they're gonna be racist, they're gonna comment on our body, on our size, yes, and they're gonna comment because we're women.
• 35:57
  Danyelle: This let's talk about the like three marginalized identities that we not to mention queer, which both of us can bypass in some instances.
• 36:10
  Michelle: But yeah.
• 36:12
  Michelle: It is interesting how with any amount of distance it feels easier to stomach.
• 36:18
  Michelle: And I don't know if you feel the same, but when it is just every second refreshing, a constant barrage of negativity.
• 36:27
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 36:28
  Michelle: It was really intense.
• 36:30
  Danyelle: No, now it's fun because I will say the post is still they're still arguing on the post.
• 36:37
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 36:38
  Danyelle: And it is, it's just like a little bit more fun.
• 36:40
  Danyelle: Most recently, somebody replied with like a a gif that was like, this is racist.
• 36:47
  Danyelle: And I just posted the Oxford definition of racist statement.
• 36:54
  Danyelle: Or like, thank you so much for engaging in our post.
• 36:57
  Danyelle: Have you listened to the full episode?
• 36:58
  Danyelle: I think you're missing the context.
• 37:01
  Danyelle: Like, it's just fun.
• 37:02
  Danyelle: And I read it like that in my head, and I hope they do too.
• 37:06
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 37:07
  Michelle: Well, so that was our experience with going viral.
• 37:10
  Michelle: And what we will admit here as we kind of work to get ourselves back on the other side is that it showed the algorithm that men of a certain age are interested in our content.
• 37:21
  Michelle: And on the one hand, not no.
• 37:24
  Michelle: I do think that we do have male listeners and it's been landing.
• 37:29
  Michelle: And is that maybe the majority of our intended audience?
• 37:33
  Michelle: Probably not.
• 37:34
  Michelle: We're interracial friends, female identifying, queer, talking about friendship.
• 37:42
  Michelle: It's not meant for a middle-aged white guy in the South.
• 37:46
  Michelle: And so a lot of our very docile, cutesy content is being delivered to them, and they're like, nope, nope.
• 37:54
  Michelle: So we're in Instagram jail right now.
• 37:56
  Michelle: Please get us out.
• 37:58
  Michelle: Help us get out.
• 37:59
  Michelle: We'll see you on the other side, I hope.
• 38:01
  Michelle: But repost, share, make a comment.
• 38:05
  Michelle: Click copy link.
• 38:06
  Michelle: You don't have to send it anywhere.
• 38:08
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 38:08
  Michelle: Put it on your bookmarks.
• 38:10
  Michelle: All of it makes a difference.
• 38:12
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 38:12
  Michelle: But yeah, happy to kind of share the behind the scenes of what that's been like.
• 38:19
  Michelle: Also, I think big takeaway is that we have content that is interesting that people want to engage with every time we talk about the topics that we discuss in a season.
• 38:30
  Michelle: People are like, oh my God, yes.
• 38:32
  Michelle: Yes, absolutely.
• 38:34
  Michelle: And that's what we're writing off of because ultimately Instagram is and social media at large is the means for building that audience of listeners so that we can continue to do this work, which is talking to you here, which is workshops, which is workbooks, which is hopefully bestie retreats in the future, and maybe a book.
• 38:58
  Michelle: Who knows?
• 38:58
  Michelle: Stay tuned.
• 38:59
  Michelle: But this is all like part of the model that we're contending with and really new at.
• 39:07
  Danyelle: I think one thing I would add to our list is like taking care of each other, like loving each other better, harder, deeper.
• 39:16
  Danyelle: We started this conversation, or I started this conversation with I am a better friend because of the work that we're doing here.
• 39:23
  Danyelle: That is a big part of the why.
• 39:26
  Danyelle: We've gotten that feedback.
• 39:28
  Danyelle: And so I just wanted to add that piece of how do we be better to each other?
• 39:35
  Danyelle: And I think it's a good juxtaposition to our first viral post of yeah, this is why we're doing this.
• 39:44
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 39:46
  Michelle: That part.
• 39:47
  Michelle: It's so interesting because once you learn this language, you know, and they say when you have a hammer, everything's a nail.
• 39:55
  Michelle: It's so powerful because the things that were previously mysteries, the conversations you have when you sit down with your friends or family or loved ones and you have a dilemma.
• 40:08
  Michelle: You know, I have to go to this wedding, but I don't have the money, or I have to go to this dinner, but I don't like my friend's partner, or whatever the social dilemma is, once you have the tools for not only how to approach that dilemma, but also understanding why it's bringing something up for you and what's coming up for your friend, maybe, and why they're with that person.
• 40:29
  Michelle: It's like it's all just this fun puzzle if you are willing to look at it in that way.
• 40:34
  Michelle: And then you get to find what's the healthiest way for me to insert myself and to play a part of this tapestry of chaos.
• 40:45
  Michelle: I love that.
• 40:47
  Danyelle: That was that was golden.
• 40:49
  Danyelle: Yeah, I'm really proud of us.
• 40:52
  Danyelle: So proud of us.
• 40:53
  Michelle: This is dope.
• 40:54
  Michelle: This is really dope.
• 40:56
  Michelle: Can't wait to start season two and so grateful for those uh OGs Rider Days.
• 41:03
  Michelle: That's right, who have been following from the beginning and encouraging us.
• 41:07
  Michelle: We read every single message.
• 41:10
  Danyelle: And not only do we read every single message, but if you have posted a comment on Apple or Spotify, if you have texted us, if you have left something in a voice note, we've screenshot, we transcribe, and we are collecting it.
• 41:26
  Danyelle: It's very powerful.
• 41:28
  Danyelle: It means so much.
• 41:29
  Danyelle: We are so deeply grateful at how much we are getting from y'all.
• 41:37
  Danyelle: Yeah, thank you.
• 41:39
  Michelle: I also want to like open it up that we want to start collecting your stories or your dilemmas in friendship, challenges, things that might be coming up, something you've heard of, a topic you're interested in.
• 41:54
  Michelle: Thankfully, it's such a rich depth of field that we have a lot on deck, but I think it will be even more so when the listeners start sending those in.
• 42:06
  Michelle: So it's hello at thethirdthingpod.com.
• 42:11
  Danyelle: Send us your things.
• 42:12
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 42:13
  Danyelle: Tell us what's on your mind, your heart.
• 42:16
  Danyelle: Maybe you'll hear it.
• 42:18
  Michelle: Can't wait to see you in season two.
• 42:20
  Danyelle: Yay!
• 42:23
  Michelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 42:27
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 42:35
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 42:38
  Danyelle: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 42:46
  Michelle: The link is in the show notes.
• 42:48
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 42:53
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.