Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #505 Can Mindfulness Help?

Transcript

#505 Can Mindfulness Help? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, when you're in the car and you're freaking out
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: because you're going to be late and everything's happening, it's
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: really hard to remember.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: Oh, and this is my opportunity to be mindful.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: I need to just take some deep breaths and get
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: back into that zen sort of space.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: But that's where we need to go.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: and dad.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au and dad to six kids
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: who we share I share with my wife and mum
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: to those six kids, Kylie, who is with me today?
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Did I make that harder than it needed to be?
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: Just a little bit? I kind of feel like I say.
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: That, I know that if you want to take all
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: the credit, you have to take all the blame as well.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: Right, thank you for that. It's the twelfth of Is
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: it the twelfth or the twelfth?
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Is there an f in there? I'm going to have
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: to google this. Is it the twelfth or the twelfth?
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: The twelfth?
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: I didn't hear it in that.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I just heard you say twelfth. Is it like that
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: there is a there's an F in there, so there
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: is there is a say it, come on twelfth. You're
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: sort of I'm not hearing the F You're not supposed to,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: so should I be saying twelfth?
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Is it the twelfth? Or is it the twelfth?
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: Are you going to make everything hard today? Maybe I
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: just wight everything? Okay, Hey, yah, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: I'm so sorry to have done that to you. I
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: don't know where it came from, but I'm sure there'll
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: be plenty of English teachers out there prepared to teach
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: you how to say it Jewish Day.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: No, it's not. How did you say that Tuesday? Well,
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: like you're choosing which day it is Tuesday? Tuesday?
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: But our eight year old is very adamant that it's Tuesday.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but our eight year old also says can't instead
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: of can't, I can't do this?
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Where are you getting this American stuff from?
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: That?
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Can't?
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: So?
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Do you I just say Tuesday.
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: There have been two teachers in our kids schooling who
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: have all been very adamant about Tuesday.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: Tuesday.
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's not Tuesday, it's Tuesday, said.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: Don't think too much about it.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: So like when you've got to walk somewhere Tuesday to
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: It's like when you've got to walk in front of people,
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: like walk across the stage. You know how to walk,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: You've been walking your entire life. But have you ever
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: had to walk in front of an audience and suddenly
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: you're like, I'm not sure if I can do this now.
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: No, I've never had that experience.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: Happens to me all the time. Tuesday, Tuesday, No, it's
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: not Tuesday. Let's get on with the podcast. Is that? Okay? Hello,
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: we've already done the intro. We have have we? Okay? Great?
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: Please forgive us. This is just this is how we
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: love you.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: You didn't intro me?
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: Who are you?
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: We have to we have to do a podcast here.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I've been looking at some science lately and I want
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: to share it. This is a Doctor's Desk episode about
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: once a month we dive into the latest research, have
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: a look at what scientists are discovering about how to
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: make our parenting lives better or giving us food for
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: thought in case we need to make any big and
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: intentional decisions about what's going to happen with us and
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: our children. A new study just published this one in
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: the International Journal of Behavioral Medicine, and it's related to
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: mindfulness which has been the buzzword in pop psychology for
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: probably the last i'd say ten years, maybe a little longer,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: maybe the last fifteen years. Everyone's been going on about mindfulness.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Mindfulness does everything, and it seems that this latest study
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: conducted with pregnant mums doesn't quite do everything after all.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: So we know that if you get stressed, it can
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: be associated with it can actually lead to excessive weight gain.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: And if there's going to be weight gain, pregnancy is
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: a time where this can really happen, like it's going
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: to happen naturally.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: It's the time when you are most stressed, well potentially
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: your body is most stressed.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But we're not talking about the natural, healthy weight
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: gain that comes with pregnant, So we're talking about the
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: excessive weight gain that some people can experience, and like
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: you said, pregnancy is a time where that can occur.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: So these researchers got a bunch of.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Pregnant women, one hundred and fifteen of them, and they
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: did some mindfulness training and what they were interested in
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: discovering was whether or not mindfulness could help the pregnant mums,
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: the expectant mums to be less stressed, to eat more healthily,
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  Speaker 2: and they basically wanted to have a look at what
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: their overall weight gain would be. So they had one
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: hundred and fifteen mums that went to the mindfulness training
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: for eight weeks.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: They had one hundred and five.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Mums who were the same socioeconomic status and same weight
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: equivalency having treatment as usual. And what they found was
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: that the mums who had the mindfulness training did experience
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: less stress, well, less depression.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: They experienced less depression.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: And less stress and anxiety.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: You've been reading the science, You've been reading the study. Yeah,
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: but pick out keywords.
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  Speaker 2: But it didn't have any impact on their weight gain
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: at all. They experienced the same levels of excessive weight gain,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: not just regular weight gain, but excessive weight gain as
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: the control group. And so I think it's just an
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: interesting one to be mindful of, if I can use
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: that term. Mindfulness can do stuff, but it can't do
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: all the stuff. Mindfulness does have a relationship with the
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: extent to which we experience stress, depression and anxiety, but
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: it's not the I don't know, it's not the thing
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: that makes everything all better all the time.
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this intrigues me a little bit because I never
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: would have thought that it did. When I think of mindfulness,
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: I think of, I guess, the ability to calm right
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: my own mind and to be able to work through
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: that those thought processes that would lead to anxiety, stress,
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: or depression.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: So that's a healthy approach to mindfulness. Unfortunately, and I'm
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: going to talk more about this in a sec but
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: there have been a lot of people who have made
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: a bunch of planes.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like essential oilsial.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Oyals, no doubt, can do stuff for you to make
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: you feel better about life, but they can't do everything.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was one essential oil company recently there
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: was in the news for claiming that it could help
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: with COVID, it could cure COVID. Some people just take
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: these claims a little bit too far. Here's another mind
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: from the study that caught my attention though, and again
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: talking about young mums infants, well actually not young mums,
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: but young mums and their babies. Infants whose mums participated
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: in a mindful their Space program during their pregnancies had
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: healthier stress responses at six months old. Now, I find
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: this fascinating.
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: So not the mum, as we're talking about the infant.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: So this is the first known study that shows that
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: a parental intervention can improve the health outcomes of the child.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: And they were looking at what they call autonomic nervous
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: system responses. So what the researches essentially have done is
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: they've studied one hundred and thirty five mum and bub
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: diads gave them an eight week mindfulness based program, So
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: eight weeks seems to be about the standard in these
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: current situations, and they found that those little babies had
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: a faster cardiovascular recovery from something that was stress inducing,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: as well as more self soothing behaviors than the kids
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: whose mums didn't go through the mindfulness intervention. I find
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: this extraordinary, so so interesting.
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: So I'm not scientific by any stretch, but I remember
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: all of the conversations that I had as a young mum,
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: where you know, all of those feel good things would
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: be passed through my milk to my baby. So this
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: feels like a scientific way of telling me that.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Maybe, although this is not milk related, what I would
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: guess is happening here and I don't have a whole
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: lot of additional data, and the researchers didn't really make
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: too many hypotheses about this either. They've basically said, we've
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: done this, here's what's happened. But I think that the
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: reason for it is that when you've got a calmer mum,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: you have a calmer baby.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, emotions are catchy, right, and that's the I
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: guess that's the reality. The conversations that I had as
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: a young mum with professionals was very much about if
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: I can lower my anxiety levels, and I guess the
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: way I respond in different situations and my baby's going
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: to respond totally different.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: So the critical thing as a take home message from
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: both of these studies is number one, don't expect that
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: mindfulness is going to be the cure all but it
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: can be helpful for reducing stress and anxiety for a
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: whole lot of people who may not otherwise be mindful.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: The trick is learning how to be more mindful. Now
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: that's probably another podcast in and of itself. I don't
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: think we can dive into that right now. But the
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: evidence is there that suggests that it's good for you
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: and it's good for your kids, even from the time
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  Speaker 2: they're born, even when they're in utero, and certainly over
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: that subsequent six months. You and I both know that
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: when we're more mindful, when we're more calm, our children thrive.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: They do better as well, even though they're all grown up.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: In fact, you and I like being around each other
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: more when we're more mindful and more present.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: It's just a fact of life.
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: Well, I know you said there's not a lot of time,
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: but this is the podcast for a time poor parent
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: who just wants answers. Have you got at least one tip.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: After the break?
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Neurodiverse children are beautiful, but they also bring unique challenges
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: for parents and educators. The world does not always accommodate
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: them easily or well. Communication, affection, behavior, learning, and almost
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: every other aspect of life can be challenging for the
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: child and their families. The webinar A Parent's Guide to
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Autism by leading autism expert Michelle Garnett can help parents
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: and educators strengthen the bond with their autistic children for
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: better outcomes for children and families. A Parent's Guide to
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Autism is available at Happy Families dot com dot a U.
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for a time
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: poor parent who just want answers. Now, you're such a tease.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: What do you mean I'm such a teas after the
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: break for the break.
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: What is one thing that parents can practice in being
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: more mindful to reduce and lower stress and anxiety levels.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: The simplest thing is just breathing. I mean, it's so simple,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: and people roll their eyes like as if I'm going
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: to breathe and that's going to make it all better,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: But it actually does. Breathe in for five seconds three
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: and o's hold it for five seconds, breathe out for
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: five seconds three.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: Your mouth just makes everything feel better. Full stop. End
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: of story. Breathing simple. There are much more advanced and
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: sophisticated mind from the strategies. You can google them. They're
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: all over the place.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: I share them with parents regularly as well in other
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: contexts and in my webinars and things.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: But just breathe. Just focus on the here and now
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: a second one. Here's another really quick one. Because you
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: look at me like you're not satisfied.
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: No, I was going to explain breathing because I think
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: it's really important.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: Okay, explain breathing.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: When I went to eat in about six months ago.
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: They helped me understand the power of breathing. When we
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: get stressed and we're anxious, what happens to our breathing.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: It gets faster, it gets shallower.
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: Totally, and what that signals to our body is that
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: we are not safe.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: And so when we are mindful about our breath and
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: we take the time to slow it down, what we
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: actually send the message to our body is that we
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: are safe where we've got this under control. So even
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: when the situation is stressful, if we're able to lower that,
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: we actually are telling ourselves and telling our body physiologically
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: we are safe. And for most of us, we're not
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: being chased by a Tyrannosaurus rex.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just that there's that meeting that we're going
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: to be late for, and if we breathe, we're going
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: to get to the meeting whatever time we get to
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: the meeting, no matter whether we're breathing shallow and fast
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: and panicky or breathing deep. So breathe deep and calm
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: that autonomic nervous system. That's really what the message here
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: is another way that you can be mindful. I'm not
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: going to worry about the other doctor's desk study that
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: I was going to share. We'll save that for next
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: time we do a doctor's desk. The other way that
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: you can be mindful is that you can just pay
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: attention to what your senses notice. And I love doing
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: it as a countdown to calm. That's what I call it.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's got an official name. I
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: can't find it, but that's what I call it. So
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: have a look around and identify five things that you
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: can see and name them. I can see the door,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I can see the lights, I can see the stove.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: I can see the greenery outside. I can see you, missus,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: happy families. And what are four things that I can
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: feel well? I can feel my feet on the tiles.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: I can feel my hand on the seat that I'm
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: sitting on. I can feel my back up against the
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: bricks that I'm touching because we're in this tiny little
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: airbnb and it's a little bit cramped. And I can
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: also feel on my face. I shaved this morning and
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: I've just got a little bit of razor burn above
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: my top lip, and I can feel that as well.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: And what are three things that I can hear well?
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: Even though I'm wearing headphones, I can still hear the
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: quiet chirp of the birds outside.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Right, And there's the I can hear you, of course,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: and there's the gentle whir of traffic because we live
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: near a busy road. Now and then we can also
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: do two things that we can smell and one thing
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: we can taste. And just by going through that process,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: as you've been listening to us share these mundane details
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: about what we can see and feel and hear and
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: smell and taste, it brings everything back to here and now.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: It makes us mindful of the moment in a non
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: judgmental way. It helps everything to be calm and peaceful,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: and the pressure and stress is gone.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: So the mindfulness industry that's grown out of these ideas
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: is helpful. It's useful.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: But I guess the one thing that I would highlight
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: again is that mindfulness can't do everything. And there's a
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: lot of people out there who are selling courses and
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: making promises about mindfulness that are just not fair and
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: that it's just not right. Mindfulness has exploded, But there
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: was this recent review by the I might actually see
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: if I can link to this in the show notes
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: as well. There was a recent review maybe three or
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: four years ago now by the US Agency for Healthcare
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Research and Quality, and they found that mindfulness based therapies
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: provide only moderate help in treating anxiety, depression, pain, and
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: don't do a whole lot to reduce stress or improve
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: quality of life. And I think that's probably because, sorry,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: and there is no evidence at all at this point
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: that mindfulness can help people with substance abuse, or with
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: eating habits, or with sleep problems, or with weight control.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: So there's a whole lot of potential positive benefits, and
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: some people may find mindfulness benefits in those areas and others,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: but overall, we need to recognize that mindfulness can't fix everything.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: I think it's really important to understand that it's one
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: tool that we have in our.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Tool Yes, yes, And the other thing to remember is
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: you've got to actually do it. Like you can be
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: taught it, But when you're in the car and you're
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: freaking out because you're going to be like and everything's happening,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: it's really hard to remember, Oh, and this is my
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: opportunity to be mindful. I need to just take some
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: deep breaths and get back into that zen sort of space,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: but that's where we need to go. So Coylie, that's
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: our doctor's desk for today. I know we've goofed off
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: a little bit. We've had some fun and we didn't
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: get through all of the studies, but we can catch
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: up on the other studies in our next Doctor's Desk episode.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: The take home message mindfulness. It feels good. It can help.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: It won't help with everything, but there is pretty good
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: evidence that our emotions are contagious. They're catchy, and if
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: you can be holding it together nicely, the kids are
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: going to feel that and everyone's going to do better.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. Next Monday Night,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: we have the webinar that you can not miss.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: It's called Carrots and Sticks.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: It's all about how punished moments, rewards, praise, control, bribes,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: time out and more undermine our ability to effectively discipline
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: our kids and what we can do instead of using
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: the behavioral Carrot and stick. I hope you joined me
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: for it. If you're a Happy Family's member, it's included
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: in your membership. If you're not a member, it's just
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: thirty bucks, and you can get all the details at
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: happy families dot com, dot a u