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Looking for a therapist? · Brilliant Minds?

• Olivia: Hello everyone, welcome back to Brilliant Minds, Brains, Banter, and Being Human. We are professionals, but it's yap o'clock, so here we go. I'm Olivia, and this is the coolest, bestest friend. This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Andrea: Andrea and it's nighttime and I'm kooky If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org. Olivia: Yeah, I know. We are switching up our recording times to the evenings, so we're going to see how this goes. My Adderall's wearing off. just... that... ⁓ Andrea: vibin' off of residual caffeine if I have any left in my system. Olivia: man, yeah, this should be good. Okay, so today we're talking a little bit about, we're kind of combining a couple of topics altogether, which may have no business being combined, but in our minds, they made sense to combine. ⁓ Which when you should think about going to therapy, when you should think about... Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: like graduating or ending therapy and what are good questions to ask your therapist if you are looking for one and or like going to be starting therapy. I'm going to start us out because I saw this kind of interesting Reddit post and it made me think a little bit about this idea of like starting therapy and like what should be asking their therapist if they're doing consults with them or just like Andrea: Yeah. Okay. Ooh. Mm-hmm. Olivia: curious about their approach and like wanting to get started into therapy. So this Reddit post soon was about this person and they were saying how they finally decided to start looking for a therapist. It was like 20 years overdue. Hilarious. and yes, always. always like at least two years too late, not too late, but like past due past due is a better. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. and this person was talking about how like depressed she was. ⁓ Andrea: as it is. Minimum. Yeah, minimum. ⁓ Olivia: and how she was reading all these different therapist bios. And she's like, they all sound the same and they're all excited to go on this journey with me. And they really hope that they can support me through life transitions. But she was talking about unmotivated she became to start therapy because she felt so depressed ⁓ when she read all these bios and they all read the same way about helping people that like didn't really seem like they would need help, she feel like she fit that. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: And this like therapy was not going to work or not effective or whatever the case may be. And it just really made me think like you and I have talked about this not on the podcast. I don't think specifically, but this idea that a lot of therapists market themselves the same way. It's all just like kind of generic garbage. ⁓ Right. Yeah. Andrea: Yeah. Yes, I could talk about therapist bios for hours and I won't do that to you and I won't do that to our listeners, but that's truly it. And you and I have done so much like bio writing, not only for ourselves. That's true, you have a, I have done a ton. Olivia: I I ⁓ Andrea: So I have done a ton of editing and talking about bios with young therapists in particular. And I cringe every time I see Journey and a question right off the bat. Even my sister-in-law just wrote her first like bio for her private practice, which is super exciting, whole other thing. But she started off with a question and I looked at her and I was like. Olivia: You Andrea: We all know why we're going to therapy. Why are you asking a question? Like, are you asking us? Like, just like, part of wants to rewrite a bio that just says like, you know why you're here? Do you like me? I don't know. As I'm just so tired of the cliche words and the things that say like, are you ready to go on this journey? Are you tired and struggle to get out of bed in the morning? Like, yeah, duh. Olivia: It reminds me of that meme. It's like, did you know there are people that are so depressed that they can't get out of bed in the morning? And then the person's like, yeah, did you know people are so depressed that they kill themselves? Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Olivia: It's like. Yeah, okay, so trying to like translate this this like idea of therapist bios and like looking for a therapist How would you recommend somebody look for a therapist knowing that there's so much like I don't know like disingenuous language out there Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like my answer to this is a little biased in the sense of like, ⁓ think I look for the photo first. Like I want look at this person and see like, like I'm such a visual person that I think a picture speaks so much for me that I'm like, if you ⁓ are, your headshot is you sitting on a bed, which I literally saw the other day, I'm a little bit like not okay I'm gonna move on um or if like it's a selfie that's like this close to your face I'm gonna be like do you care about how people perceive you like I I know that I'm judgy with that but it's like I picked my last therapist because she had a wonderful photo she had some flowers in the photo it was of her face she looked kind and soft and more like a warm person I was like I like this person. I like the way that she presents herself. She has tattoos. She looks really comforting to talk to. And I was right. It worked. So I think that is the first thing I look for. And then I always tell people, it doesn't matter what therapeutic interventions they're saying. Make sure they work with your population and they have some experience with what you're interested in exploring. Whether that's just like it. Olivia: Mm. Andrea: life transitions can mean anything and ultimately take them up. Excuse me. It's Fresca getting all bubbly. Take them up on the 15 minute consultation. Talk to them. Meet them. know, see what they're all about. Olivia: Mm. Yeah, I would add on to that and through my own version or perspective, which is If you're looking for a therapist and you to start therapy, it's not as scary as it might seem. Definitely not with the right fit of therapist. It's really not that scary. If they don't do consult calls, they're requiring you to meet and charge you that amount of money. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: don't like that. I don't think that that is... I just don't think that's a good idea for a number of reasons that we get into, but all to say, like, consults are really important. If a therapist just like doesn't do any consults, I would honestly move on to try and a different therapist or the next one. The thing that I look for, cause I also can be a visual person and I'm picky about the photo, but I want to know what their website looks like. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Mm, that's such a good one, too. Olivia: because if it is jumbled or too wordy or poorly laid out or buggy ⁓ too many like things linking to different things, ⁓ doesn't, don't like that because to me that communicates a level of like, I don't know what I'm doing or what I want or even like what I'm going for. And then immediately I'm like, no. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: This is not easily digestible. It doesn't make sense. I can't follow it. I don't like it. It's too much. mean, and gosh, I think about how many times have we been like, especially me, like super nitpicky about our website. like, hey, like the spacing, this one singular space is like off or being like, oh, this is too many words. This needs to go away. Or like, no, no, no, like that needs to get boiled down to these three words. Like I have been so nitpicky about our website and you as well, but like. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: I'm on these like tiny little like grammatical, like, ⁓ there needs to be like a little dash there or whatever. Andrea: Right. like humble brag for us, like we've actually gotten so much feedback that our website is so simple. It's easy to navigate. is It says exactly what you want right off the bat. and, we've mentioned this on the podcast so many times that like we balance each other out on that. And it's like, you know, ⁓ my creation and creativity with like that side came in and then you're like, I don't know what you wanna call this, analytical brain that came in and was like, ⁓ there's like a weird space here or like, hey, that word is spelled wrong. think that's what made our website so polished and so inviting. And I have heard from people like, I really like your website. Like it ⁓ a therapist website. It is a website that I would want to book a therapist on. Olivia: yeah, that's cool. But yeah, just like, beyond the photo, like look at their website, because if it's... a circus... Nope. Andrea: Now what are your thoughts on if they don't have their own website? Olivia: I think that's weird, especially in this day and age. To the point where I don't even know if I've run across a therapist that doesn't have, because either they're in a group and the group basically has a website for them, more or less, or they're in private practice. Yeah, I don't think I've come across somebody in private practice that doesn't have their own website. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, I have and it's mostly like my associates that are starting out and they just don't have the finances yet to like pay for a website that's fully good. But we've talked about, you know, the affordable versions of that. And that's a marketing conversation, you know, that we could we could talk about it another episode. But like is I think having a website is such a good investment in yourself and your business. I think it shows a Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: And the way that your website is presenting shows how much that therapist cares about their job, right? put so much thought and energy into the words that we're using in our bios and our website to make it, to pull in the client that we want and for clients to ⁓ drawn to that and to really like know who we are and what we do just based off of a visit to our website. Olivia: Absolutely. If you can switch gears a little bit to talking about like consults and what client should be asking therapists, because I'm curious to hear your thoughts. would you say if a client and a console asked ⁓ you were going to therapy to? Andrea: Yeah, let's do it. Mmm, I mean I would be honest Like, mean, I don't know what the other option is in that, but maybe I'm too honest of a person. I know. I would be honest and I would tell them ⁓ at point in time, whatever I was doing, you know, and obviously if they ask further questions, I'm going to be a little bit more protective over the answer around that. You know, like right now I'm not in therapy because it's difficult financially and like not feasible for me at the moment. And I'm moving, so I will be with a therapist for like less than six months. So in my brain, there's like, But ⁓ I be honest. I'm curious if you have a different answer to that. Olivia: So do. No, I don't necessarily have a different answer. So I would be honest as well. I never, I've never been asked that question, but it is a curious thing as a therapist, if I was going to find, go and find another therapist, right. As I think I might actually be tempted to ask that in a consult with another therapist as like a fellow professional. we talk a lot about we are therapists on this podcast. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Olivia: And I feel like that question doesn't get asked a lot. so putting somebody in a position where they've not maybe been asked that question before to see like how they roll with it to me, I think would really speak to that person and like their style and approach, I guess, if that makes sense. Almost kind of like a trick question ⁓ question, you know. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it almost makes me wonder if also the question maybe more broadly of like, have you been in therapy yourself to a therapist? Because like, I have met some therapists who have never been to therapy. Yeah, you heard that right guys. But I think that that's such a valid, like that question. Olivia: Mmm, yeah. That's... that's so bizarre to me. That's so bizarre to me. Andrea: is so valid, right? Like you want somebody who knows what it's like to be in your chair. Olivia: Yeah, I think that's like if I if I had people asking me, which I don't really we're assuming that they are the general public of the general public was asking me like, hey, what would you be asking of a therapist and my like search to find a good fit? I probably would recommend that question just like to see what the therapist was saying how they'd handle it. Because if somebody asked me, I'd be like, hey, wow, like, that's a really great question. I haven't been asked that before. honestly, right now, no, I'm not. Andrea: Mm Yeah. Yeah, I... Mm-hmm. Olivia: Although I have been in the past and I've found it really helpful, what makes you ask that question? Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. think that that's a really interesting one to add to that. I don't think that would have been my first or one like a thought that would have come to my mind, but I do really I would really appreciate that question. I think as a therapist, especially one who has been to therapy, right? And and you and I both really value that therapeutic relationship and transparency to a certain level. So I think that that's that's a great connecting point on like, OK, yeah. Olivia: Great. Mm-hmm. Andrea: this person knows what this vibe is. They like know maybe what I'm looking for, especially like you said, to kind of get an idea of what their style is. I get a lot of people that come to me and they're like, I don't really want someone who's just going to sit back and listen to me. I really want somebody who's going to be conversational, be direct, tell me when I'm like acting out or like act wild and out. Right. And that's a lot of the clients that I get. And I love when they tell me that because Number one, I am that therapist. I am gonna be a little bit more active. I don't have to tell them I'm not gonna sit back and listen to you lay on the couch the whole time. I will if that's what you need, but like, not my vibe. I think asking that question of like, ⁓ have you been to therapy can lead into that question of like, well, this is what I'm looking for and is that what you can provide? Is that an experience you can provide for me? Olivia: Yeah, especially in this scenario where we both have experienced it by the time people land in therapy, like they're way past due for it. And usually I find, and I'm sure you do too, they're pretty, desperate is a strong word, but we'll go for it for now. It's like desperate for change or like desperate for something to be different. And so, um, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: I think ultimately they are looking for lot more engagement and like participation in the session and so you know if if you're hoping to make some changes or you're feeling really stuck because I think that's another really common feeling just being stuck like yeah asking the therapist hey you know like I know not as familiar with therapeutic styles or whatever but like Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: I'm feeling stuck with these things and I really want to change or make progress, like, do you feel like you can help me with that? Right? ⁓ I mean, this is probably a little bit more of a question that ⁓ would ask because again, I'm like a fellow colleague, but I might ask the more existential question of like, How you think change happens in therapy? Andrea: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Okay. Olivia: And the reason why, I mean, think there's a lot of reasons why, but a lot of clients kind of are past due to come to therapy. And when they get to therapy, there's a percentage of people that it's not what they expect or they realize that it's like, it's not a time in which they want to change. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: And so I want to get a better understanding of the therapist's view on how change happens and like, what does change mean? Because that gives me better insight into like their therapeutic process and like their expectations for therapy. But then it also might help kind of center my own expectations of therapy of like, this is what change would look like with this therapist or like, is, this is kind of like, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: how they're approaching it or where they want to guide our time together. So think it would help center me in that, but also just like generally for somebody, again, this might be a little bit more of a like heady existential question, but just like, it might help people kind of discover like, oh yeah, like, yep, I am ready to change. like, ooh, that actually sounds really hard. I don't know like, I'm completely on board for that. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, well it makes me think about you know something I when we talked about this topic the thing that kind of comes up a lot is like in consults especially is the question of what therapeutic interventions do you use or do you use IFS or CBT or whatever all those acronyms to be honest half time when I get asked that in a consult as a therapist I'm like Do you as the client even know what those are? And I don't really like answering that question. And I have a good answer for it. I am good at answering that question, because I've done it so many times. But in a way, if a client came to me and they asked the question of how do you see change in therapy, have you been to therapy, I'd be more like, I kind of want to work with you as a client. Right? Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. me up! Yeah, totally. Andrea: you're ready for change. like, not to say that people can't go to therapy not ready for change and it actually blow their minds and like work really well, that's totally the case. But if you're like really interested in finding a therapist that fits for you, like maybe these questions are more helpful rather than do you do CBT? Do you like, what's your therapeutic orientation? Olivia: Okay. Andrea: And maybe we need to come up with like a nice little graphic list that we can share for everyone and put it on our website around like what to ask your therapist in your 15 minute consult or what, you know, what to ask them about therapy to help support finding your the right fit. Because I hear the same questions and consults all the time. And when I'm a client, I don't really ask those questions. I might because I feel like that's what you're supposed to ask. Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: But I think we can find, narrow down our search a little bit better when we're asking more of those existential questions or questions that we actually want to know. Olivia: Yeah, if I never had to answer the question, what's your therapeutic approach again, I could die blissfully happy. like I would be pushing so many daisies. Andrea: I agree. Hahaha Yes. Olivia: I agree. Like I, I've been asked that question so much. I've practiced answering that question. I know how to answer that question and I hate answering that question every single time. because one, it just doesn't really fit my style to, be like, ⁓ I follow EIEIO therapy and this therapy and I have this, you know what I mean? Like it's just, ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Who cares? I put that on my bio way down so people can see if they ⁓ want to see if something speaks to them. But generally, who gives a flying hoot what therapeutic interventions or approaches I use? I mean, ultimately. And so I really despise that question, ⁓ I've had to answer it so many ⁓ Andrea: Yeah, also, there's two thoughts swirling in my head and I'm curious, how do you feel as a therapist about if somebody were to ask you about your cultural diversity experience or your political views? Olivia: Mmm. Andrea: Because those are questions I actually have been asked in consults. Olivia: Oh, that's interesting. I'm trying to think. Um... I don't think I've been asked those questions. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Or even spirituality, like what's your, like, you know, how do you feel about spirituality is another question kind of along those lines that I've been asked. Olivia: Interesting. Yeah, I mean, just kind of similar to the question of, you know, how you've been in therapy before, I think I would just be as open and honest as possible. Like, you know, do you have a lot of experience with cultural diversity? I'd be like, you know, I have some. Do I think that it's enough to say that I have a really good understanding? No. You know, or like, oh, like your political views? Personally, I would not Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: directly share my political views. Like I think I would say something like, you know, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: I appreciate the question. I can see that that's important to you and how people are politically active is important to me too. ⁓ am active in ⁓ of the things that I believe in and ⁓ in that value system. However, I work with a diverse enough range of people politically that I to keep my very specific like political stance to myself. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I do tend to be a little bit more in that because I do ⁓ to lean pretty Yeah, totally which I I tend to very much say that I lean more liberal ⁓ democratic like based but I won't reveal like Like I won't go saying, you know screw this administration or whatever. Like I won't say that Olivia: Which is fair. Yeah. Andrea: I have had conversations with established clients around those things, but in a consult, I'll be honest, and I will say what I believe in. And like you said, with the values, like things that align with my values, I lean heavily towards and want to make it a safe space for everyone, but I will lean that direction for sure. And I find that to be really helpful in a lot of ways. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a, that's a, that's a harder one for me to answer because it's so funny because if somebody were to ask me about like religious affiliation or belief, I'd be honest. I wouldn't really struggle with that one too much. I'd be like, yeah, like identify as a religious person. I, you know, I grew up religious and you know, I still identify within that group. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: But the political thing, I don't know, that feels a little bit testier to me for a variety of reasons. Two reasons come to mind. One is like one of my experiences directly. And the other piece is like politically it feels more polarizing, ironically to me than like religion in some ways. And so that's, think, one of the primary reasons why I'm like, ugh, like, I don't know if I like. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that. Olivia: I'm fine going into those things a little bit more with clients that I've been working with for a while, but not like just new clients in a console. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right, yeah, think, you know, question, would probably have a follow-up question to that as well, which I often do ask, which is like, you know, what values do you lean into that you find important to have from your therapist that are related to that, you know, and ⁓ more of a sense of like, can we align on ⁓ values? Because I do think that that's important when you are looking for a therapist. I have worked with people of, Olivia: Yeah. Mmm. Andrea: of very different political experiences than me or political views than me. And it was a little bit more difficult for me to stay neutral and for me to stay level with them in a lot of ways. And there was other things going on, but wanna know that I can still understand ⁓ find a neutral place to support my client if those things come up. And I think... Right now with our political climate, is an okay question to ask, right? I think it is, if that is something that a shit ton to you, go ahead and ask that question. Olivia: Yeah, yeah, I definitely wouldn't ever like discourage that question for sure. I mean, the other experience that I think about is Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: I was, my first year of being a therapist was 2020. And I was seeing a lot of clients. This is when I was like maxed out. was seeing, I was seeing about like 30, 32-ish clients a week. And what I found, what I found challenging, which is I think is part of why I would hesitate to answer that question. What I found challenging at that time was, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: My clients were about like 50-50 split on which political candidate they were leaning towards. it was coming up, I swear, in almost like every single session with every single client. And I found it challenging for two reasons. One, the client would automatically assume that I was the same ⁓ as them, even if I like very much did not feel that way. And that was challenging of like, ⁓ you're just assuming that I, I get it. And I'm like, I know. other piece that was really hard is Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: One party would talk really badly about other people in the other party and vice versa. And here I am holding space for all these people. And it's like, I know the people that you're talking badly about and they're like going through it and they're still good people. And like, I'd be saying kind of the same thing to myself on either side. And so it was a really hard time to be a therapist, at least for me, because again, most of my caseload was split. So I was getting all these like... Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: inputs on either side and it was it was really brutal. It was really brutal for me. Andrea: Yeah, yeah, and I think too the answer to that question does depend on the time and place that the political climate is in. know, like then I think my caseload was also more split than it is ⁓ and has ever been. And been like farther back in my internship. In my that was, how long ago was that? Like ⁓ eight years eight, nine years ago? And I was doing therapy and ⁓ Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: politics wasn't even an issue. It wasn't even a thing. Like nobody talked about it. Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: and you know 2016 hit and or 2018 whatever years things happened in right it became more and more prevalent in therapy and so I think it's just one of those things that we have to no matter how we approach it right we have to ebb and flow with that and we have to learn and educate with that as clients and as clinicians. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I've had plenty of clients ask me in consults, like, ⁓ well, do you have much experience with like X, Y, Z thing? You know, whatever it is. and I used to get, I used to get this a lot. don't really get this much anymore because I don't have a ton of experience with it. I don't work that much with it. still get a lot of like clients with like eating disorder tendencies or like history of eating disorders. And I just feel like, I mean, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: I have some experience, like I kind of get it, but like definitely not a specialty for me. But that one came up a lot. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. That one I'm super honest about, and I'm just like, I don't work with eating disorders as a specialty. I take a trauma approach. You know, like, I always say, if it's something that I'm not super experienced in, I take a trauma approach. And that's honestly how I do it, is I take a trauma approach to all these things, right? There is symptomology, but it is like... Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: Sometimes there are those questions around, you have experience with XYZ and eating disorders is a big one or body positivity or health at every size? Those are really big topics that I get asked a lot about. Olivia: Mm. Yeah, so yeah, I see that happening a lot and again like you own what you own and all that. And again, the benefit is that we've been in the field long enough that we've been able to become more articulate about our approach and about the kind of clients that we want to work with. So when you read our bios, you can kind of tell like if you're going to be a good fit for our specialties or like niches. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: I mean, I know we talked about this like months and months ago when we were writing the bios, but I like, like all these different kinds of people that I really love working with, but they're like such different kinds of groups that I had to like ⁓ narrow myself down ⁓ in terms of like bio writing and marketing myself because like I love working with older adults. I love working with caregivers. Like that does not fit with trauma and neurodiversions. ⁓ what I mean? ⁓ like work lot with like grief and loss and like, yeah, that's a part of the like older adult. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Olivia: And yes, that could be generally pretty applicable. It's like, you know, love working with parents. ⁓ love with... Women and women's health or chronic conditions and things like that. it's like, I love working with all those kinds of things, but I had to limit myself a little bit because if I named all those if I were me and I read it, I'd be like... Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: This bitch does everything. Like, what? Andrea: Right, right. So, you know, I think that leads me to a question I had actually about this topic, which is like, what would you tell, what would you tell a client to look for when they see, you know, maybe a bio that's like really specific, but they really like the vibe of the person, you know, like, I think my bio is pretty specific into like the neurodivergent piece, but I have such a wide caseload. So I'm curious, like if, Olivia: ⁓ Andrea: If a client was like, see that you have a lot of neurodivergent experience, but do you have experience here? like even way before that, if a friend was looking for a therapist and they were like, I really like the vibe of this person. I like their website, but they don't say that they work with blank explicitly. What, like, what do think you would tell that person? Olivia: I would say do a consult. because approach is important, but definitely not the end all experience important fit significant. And if like I had to kind of like rank the things it's like you have to go for fit experience and then approach, which is why like asking a question about somebody's therapeutic approach is like, but that's like third on the list. Like Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: What are you talking about? Andrea: Right, because you also don't know what approach is gonna work for you as a person. As a person who doesn't know therapeutic approaches, how do you know that that's gonna work or not work for you? is number one. And I even tell clients this all the time, what is harm in asking a question? What is harm in doing a 15 minute consultation? The worst... Olivia: Right. ⁓ yeah. Hmm. Andrea: The literal worst that's gonna happen is that they're not a good fit and you just say, alright, okay, bye. Olivia: Great. Right, exactly. Also, the back of my mind, you know what I would think if a client reached out and they're like, well, not necessarily neurodivergent, but like, I liked your vibe, you know, this, blah, blah, blah, blah, What? Okay. What am I going to say? What am I going to say? Andrea: I know what you're gonna say. Well, you're probably not gonna say it directly to them, but what the thought in my head is like, if you like my vibe, you're probably neurodivergent. Olivia: Yes. Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. Sometimes I feel like I am like inadvertently leading a cult because I swear to God over the last couple years, no matter what kind of client walks in the door, even though they're thinking be so diverse, I swear to God it all lands in ADHD. And I'm like, is this just like, because these are the glasses that I'm wearing now? Andrea: E? Olivia: like the figurative like clinical glasses and I think everything is ADHD. I don't know, but I swear to God, I feel like I'm like starting to, I'm like, I think I've converted like every diagnosis to ADHD, almost every, I was just like, how am I, what's happening? Andrea: Yeah. You know what? No, same though. Like even in supervision, I feel like it's so much more prominent for me in supervision because ⁓ like in my group supervision, there has been times where two people have brought two cases to group supervision and they're like telling me about these situations and I'm like, both people, I know I sound like a broken record, but have you thought about autism? Olivia: ⁓ yeah. I know, I know, I'm like, I have to sound so dumb sometimes, being like, well, hee hee, actually. Andrea: Yes. ⁓ no, I, have, maybe we do an episode on like the cult of ADHD at some point, cause it's so, it is true. Like it does feel that way, but I also think like, you know, we are putting ourselves in that community and we are drawing those people in. We have wanted to really focus on that a lot is that general neurodivergence. And I think we're also learning so much more about neurodivergence in the world and science is broadening that definition of neurodivergence. So. Olivia: Mmm. Andrea: In a way, I think we all are on it a little bit. Olivia: Yeah, I can't tell you how many times my best friend has made fun of me for starting a cult as he says. So picture this. I was working with a therapist at the time. Yes, I've been to therapy. I was working with a therapist at the time and we did a, an ADHD assessment and it was the same week I ended up taking a training on neurodivergence. irony, cause I signed up for that training like months in advance. week was a Got through the assessment. She's like, yeah, you got it. You're combined type. And I was like, okay. ⁓ Like much to process. Two days later, take a, like take a continuing education training ⁓ on get out of the training, pick up my phone, call my best friend who was also working with a therapist at the time. And I was like, Andrea: you Olivia: You have ADHD. And he was like, what? And I was like, I just got screened for it. I've known you forever. You absolutely have ADHD. You need to get assessed and you need to get medicated before you go off to get another master's degree at Oxford. Like you need to. He was like, OK. You you never talked to me like that, where you're that direct of like, you need to do this thing. And he got screened. Andrea: Ha ha. Olivia: He called me after he got screened. He goes, girl, I passed so good. They think I have autism too. Andrea: Yes. Olivia: And he was like, I swear you're like starting to call. I'm like, OK, just because I knew immediately, like after I realized it for myself that you are so deeply neurodivergent does not inherently mean I'm starting to call. But like sometimes I do kind of feel like I'm starting. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, I mean that's fair. I'm in. I'm in the cult, so let's keep going. ⁓ Olivia: Yeah, I'm gonna go for elder Andrea: ⁓ yeah, okay, I like it. Yeah, it does. So we've talked about to ask a therapist and a consult. You could even ask some of these questions in your first session if you run out of time in your 15 minutes. But also, ⁓ the part of this that we wanted to talk about was how do you know when you're ready to end? ⁓ Olivia: Yeah. Sounds smart, you know? Yeah. Mmm. Andrea: What does that look like? And I think this is interesting, because I actually just got asked this question by a client recently. And it was, how would you know when I'm ready to end therapy? And I was like, phew, reverse card here ⁓ me. Olivia: ⁓ Because I'm like anytime a client has asked me that question, I'm like, ⁓ you're ready. Andrea: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of the times that is the case, right? Where it's like, if you're asking that question, you know, where is that question coming from? And is that something that's crossing your mind? And I just think it's interesting that it's like, okay, tell me more. Olivia: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and a good question that would be maybe to a therapist in a consult is how would you know? Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: that like, I don't need therapy anymore or I'm all I can from you or I'm done with this, you know, whatever, however you want to say it, graduated, a lot of people use graduated. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: I think two things come to mind. One is like very logistical in nature and the other one is pure feeling. therapy, am I right? ⁓ part that's logistic ⁓ that you like continue to change your frequency to less and less. Going from like once a week to every other week. And then once you're out every other week, that's kind of usually the point. Like once a client's like, how about like once a month? I'm usually like, you're good. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah? Mm hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Olivia: You're fine. You don't need once a month. Get out of here. Like unless there was like a financial reason where the client could only see me once a month or something like that, which I have had. If a client wants to go to once a month, I'm going to kind of proactively be kicking them out of therapy. one is like logistic related. The other piece that I was thinking about when I was trying to think about this question of like, yeah, like how would I? Andrea: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: How would I know or what would I say or how would I think about it? is ⁓ see your therapist you feel like you just want to play catch up on events. Almost like you would a friend. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: Or you're in between sessions, you don't really have the thought, I want to bring this up in therapy. Andrea: Yeah, yeah. would ditto both all of those because those are kind of what I usually will tell people. In addition to that, one that I think about is when that therapist voice in your head turns into your own voice. ⁓ another one that I tell people. ⁓ think especially with my neurodivergent people, they're like, I heard you remind me this in my head. And then eventually it's like, ⁓ Olivia: Mmm. Andrea: As a therapist, you start to notice that that therapist voice in their day-to-day life outside of therapy starts to turn into their own inner dialogue, and then I'm like, you got it. You got it. Olivia: Yeah. That's a lovely way to put it. There haven't been many clients that have said like, oh, and then I heard the like a little Olivia voice, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I think another way that I've seen kind of the same thing that you're talking about is these like these wonderful moments. And it always just like warms my heart. And it is so bittersweet where they will do something like Like a situation will happen and they'll feel really crummy, but they'll like take care of themselves and then they'll recognize that they're taking care of themselves. And then they'll celebrate that they've taken care of themselves and they've like internalized that and they like moved on from it. And then they'll come to therapy and they'll be like, ⁓ well like this thing happened and it was really crappy, but you know, I like did this and this and like, I'm, you know, like that was so great. Like I just, you know, naturally did it, blah, blah, blah, blah, And like seeing them do this like whole full circle moment of like stressor, self care. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: proud of yourself, like log it away. It was like, ⁓ you don't need me to close this loop like at all. Awesome. Like, this is amazing. Andrea: Right. Right, yeah. Yeah, well think we're also speaking to a really great reminder for so many people that therapy doesn't fix the stuff. Like therapy doesn't get rid of the stuff, whatever the stuff is in your life, right? It supports you on learning how to live and manage it in a way that is successful for yourself. ⁓ Olivia: Mmm. Yeah. Andrea: And I think a lot of people come in and they're like, I just want to get rid of this trauma or I want to get rid of this feeling or this thought that I have. it's like, what? I'm sorry to tell you, it's not going to go away. Right? Like it's not going to go nowhere. having you just described, this internal process be like habitual and be like ingrained of like, I can a stressor and recover without the therapist needing to cover that loop. Olivia: Right. Andrea: or to close that loop. And then what I will also add to this is like therapy is short term for some people, therapy is long term for some people, and therapy is lifelong for others. And that looks different in whatever process that is. Olivia: Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting when I first became a therapist, I was like... My mind wouldn't really see anybody like past a year. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Times have changed. Andrea: Yeah, yeah. What did I'm just curious, what is your longest therapeutic relationship? Do know? Olivia: Five years. Andrea: Really? Ongoing? Still? Yeah? Cool. I love it. I love that. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, weekly. Yeah, never would have thought. What about you? Andrea: Me neither. Olivia: Honestly, like it doesn't feel like five. Does it feel like seven to you? Andrea: No, not at all. some of my long-term ones are having milestone birthdays and I'm just like, have been around this long? Olivia: my gosh, Yeah, and that's why I say like, it's so funny to me to like look back and be like, yeah, I, I'm only been working with people for like a year and here I am like five years with somebody and I'm like, there've been so many distinct phases throughout that five years. ⁓ many different things that have defined our work. Hasn't felt like five years at all. And things have like gotten a lot better, but like they're still, they're still things. ⁓ Andrea: No. Yeah, yeah. And I myself have never been in therapy for that long straight, like a couple years at a time, maybe like a year at a time with therapists. But, you know, that's just my lifestyle. And that's what worked for me at the time. And, you know, it's but I also feel really lucky that I get to create those relationships for that long and get to support someone and and see them grow and You know, we've had conversations about ending therapy and then, you know, get deeper into things and it's just great, but that's not everyone's journey and that's totally okay. Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. Just thinking about myself. I kicked myself out of therapy the last time I was in, like pretty hilariously. I was about out two years and Andrea: Mm. Olivia: I to session one day and I was like, I literally just verbally process all over you, but like, there's, I, it's just like the same stuff, you know? Like the same stuff is still stressful. And it's not that can't handle it. I know I can handle it, but like, there's nothing else to do about them except like word vomit about them. And like, I don't need to use therapy for that. Like that's a kind of a waste of therapy. So like, I think I'm good, you know, like. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Olivia: I just like kicked myself out. I was like, you don't need me. Andrea: Yeah, unfortunately my last therapist and I had to end because we were both moving out of state at the same time. It was so sad and like, ugh. Yeah, we had a lot of odd parallels in some ways. She was also a power lifter, which was wild. It was like, how is this happening? Olivia: ⁓ that's... That is sounding so bizarre. Also, okay, just with me. Do you find that the clients, like most of your clients, you have these like weird parallels with? Like all of them? Like all of them you have some weird parallels with? Yeah, freaks me out sometimes. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which which is so funny my last therapist she would tell me she's like I'm not ADHD and I'm not like Trained too much in ADHD, but I can guarantee that you have it and I was over there like Because I had just taken those trainings when I was working with her too and I was like, okay Like do I uno reverse this on her like do I tell her? Olivia: I would've, 100%. So tell me why you don't think you have any children. Andrea: I I may have said something like that at some point. It was so long ago. I don't remember but she's like I'm not gonna touch that right now Olivia: I, you know, I, the funny thing I had a, how does someone similar, not quite, but in a different way, like similar experience with therapists I was working with who helped get me like do the assessment for ADHD. we're about like some of the grief and loss of being late diagnosed and, ⁓ and, difficulty like a neurodivergent parent to a neurodivergent kid and the way she would like ⁓ nod with like eyes wide open and be like, yeah. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: I was like, ⁓ this girl, this girl is in it too. Like she's late diagnosed too. she also, you know what I mean? And like, ⁓ to be honest with you, I felt like that was so helpful, which is why, like, which is why I try to show up and be present in the same way for clients. Like if there are things that are parallel that I feel like I can, I can still hold for myself and like adequately show up for the other person that I, Andrea: Yep. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Olivia: put myself out there, but yeah. Andrea: Yeah. mean, overall, you know, I think if I was to summarize, not just our conversation today, but other conversations we've had is that fit and your relationship with your therapist matters, number one. Right? In the way that you ask them questions, in the way that you meet them for the first time, in the way that you end therapy, like... Olivia: Yeah, really, it really, really does. Andrea: You you want to have that good connection. You want to make sure you can trust them and show up as your true self and they show up as their true self, right? That authenticity, that realness is number one. Olivia: Absolutely. And I think that would be what I would encourage others in terms of like the biggest takeaway or my biggest encouragement for sure. Yeah, absolutely. we can just like cut this whole podcast down to just that, right? That's we can just... ⁓ minute. Yeah. ⁓ Andrea: Right, just two minutes. Yeah, I do think that, I think it would be a really cool idea if we kind of compiled some of those questions. We came up for like a tips and tricks list or like tips of what to ask your therapist list and we can share it on Instagram or on our website as like a resource for people. I think that that would be so helpful. Olivia: Mmm. We totally should. Yeah, I love that idea. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we'll do that. And by the time that we've worked on that, this episode will probably come out. So, ACPZ, we're so productive, you guys. Stop. Well, thank you everyone for joining in on our conversation, following along, talking about all things field related, and then in all of our episodes at A Rabbit Trail's, everything not field related. We appreciate all of you. Andrea: Exactly, exactly. Yes. Right? Olivia: If you guys have questions, comments, things maybe you want to have us cover, things that you're curious to hear what we have to say about, ⁓ clearly we love to talk. Please let us know down in the comments. speaking of comments, like, comment, subscribe, all that good stuff, and we will catch you all in the next one. ⁓ care, everyone. Bye. Andrea: Next time! Woo! Bye!