Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Can’t Sleep? How to Stop Exhaustion From Wrecking Your Relationship | Love | E540

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Can’t Sleep? How to Stop Exhaustion From Wrecking Your Relationship | Love | E540 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

• 0:03
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  Speaker 1: Quinns dot com slash lhs. Now onto the show.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: The source of a squabble was actually, I'm overreacting because
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I'm really tired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: When communication goes sideways, when people aren't being kind to
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: each other, when intimacy is out the window. It can
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: be so easy to point the finger at all kinds
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: and different culprits, but really miss the fact that one
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: or maybe both of you is absolutely running on empty.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Truly, when we are not getting good sleep, everything feels
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: bigger Emotionally, your rational logical thinking processes do not operate smoothly.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: We are far more likely to take offense. We are
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: far more likely to live in self doubt, insecurity, depression, anxiety.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: If your relationship has been feeling extra hard lately, there
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: could be a hidden saboteur making everything so much harder
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: that you might not have even considered before, and that
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: is the quality of your sleep.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: If we can just figure out sleep, everything else is
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: going to feel manageable.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: And sleep is frequently the hidden culprit behind a lot
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: of not just relationship issues, even mental health issues, and
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: it is vital that we are bringing visibility into this,
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  Speaker 1: understanding what that can do to us and our relationships
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  Speaker 1: we're not sleeping well, but also talking about how to
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: course correct I get this on track so that we
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: can start feeling better mentally and emotionally, but also start
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: enjoying our relationships again. And that is what we're doing
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: today with a very special guest, Christy Lawler.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: She is a fellow LMFT.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: She's the founder of The Peaceful Sleeper, and she's started
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: to talk with us today about how sleep might be
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: silently sabotaging a lot of different parts of our lives
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  Speaker 1: and what we can do to change this turn it around.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
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  Speaker 3: to chat.
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  Speaker 4: I am too.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Your work is incredible, you know, as I mentioned at
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: the top of this, like you know, I just transparently
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: and maybe we could just turn this into my own
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: personal therapy session here today, Chrissy. I got maybe four
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: and a half hours of sleep last night. It is
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: just like such a struggle, and I know it's not
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: just me. So many people are in this place and.
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  Speaker 4: We need you. So like, where do we start? Where
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: did you start?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: You know, honestly, that's why I got into this field
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  Speaker 2: in the first place.
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  Speaker 3: I am probably like you.
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  Speaker 2: A busy, high achieving perfectionist that go go oh, I
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: feel every minute of my day and then as soon
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  Speaker 2: as I lay down at night, it's like think, think thing, thing.
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  Speaker 3: Think and do stuff. Yeah, yeah, apart, yes, exactly. And
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  Speaker 3: so it was kind of parendipitous.
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  Speaker 2: One day, I just got one of those mailers that
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: we get all a therapist for continuing education, and my
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: license was about to be due for renewal, and it
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  Speaker 2: was all about cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. And I
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: had already realized that so many of my clients and
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  Speaker 2: my clinical.
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  Speaker 3: Practice that were stuck weren't sleeping well. And I hated that.
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  Speaker 2: I was just kind of like, yeah, me either, I
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: don't know, sleep is sup Like, what are we going
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  Speaker 2: to do?
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  Speaker 3: What can you do? Let's talk about the real issues.
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  Speaker 2: So it kind of just all came together and I realized, like, hey,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: it was the number of continuing education credits I needed.
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  Speaker 2: I thought it could help my clients. I thought it
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: could help me. And then lo and behold, you know,
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  Speaker 2: fifteen years later, here we are where I've kind of
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  Speaker 2: made it my mission to help the world sleep better, because,
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  Speaker 2: like you said, it is the core foundation of our
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: mental and physical health, our relationships are well being.
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  Speaker 3: Sleep es central to everything.
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  Speaker 1: It really is, well okay, and so not to get
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  Speaker 1: too personal, but let me get too personal. So I'm
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  Speaker 1: curious to know, Like, so, so you took you took
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  Speaker 1: this class, you started learning about, you know, come to
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: behavioral therapy for insomnia, and you know what, what did
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  Speaker 1: you recognize in yourself and your own life where you're like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: this this might actually just be my life's mission. Like
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  Speaker 1: what what's sort of coming together for you that felt
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  Speaker 1: so powerful that you were like, yeah, this is it.
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  Speaker 2: So I think, you know, the sleep aspect was really
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: inspiring for adults, and I mean the study is that
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  Speaker 2: it's so cool how quickly we can reset a sleep
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: system for adults and how you know, a twenty year
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  Speaker 2: problems can be resolved in four to six weeks, but
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: it really wasn't until I had babies and I realized that,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: you know, I've always been incredibly confident and optimistic and
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: you know, naively thought like, I can't get depression or
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: anxiety because I'm a therapist and I have all the tools.
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  Speaker 3: And so when I did.
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  Speaker 2: Experience postpartum depression and anxiety, it felt like it felt
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  Speaker 2: so big, like, you know, to get personal, I had
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  Speaker 2: a mom with a lot of mental health issues when
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: I was growing up, and so I always kind of,
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  Speaker 2: you know, she did everything that she could to get
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  Speaker 2: me on a different path, and I was always very
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: proactive and self aware. And so not only did I
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: feel like I was failing myself, I was failing my child,
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  Speaker 2: I was failing my marriage, I was failing my profession,
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  Speaker 2: and I was failing my mother because a brand new
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: mom have wanted to be a mom my whole entire life,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: and I'm not happy and I'm not successful. And so
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  Speaker 2: but fortunately I did have that internal therapist on my
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  Speaker 2: shoulder that was just like, Hey, if you could get
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: more sleep, I think you might be okay and we
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: can kind of figure out where the rest of the
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: dust settles, and so I think that's what drove my
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: passion for sleep, even recognizing that like the biggest gift
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  Speaker 2: I can give to new moms in motherhood and new
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  Speaker 2: families as we transition into parenthood and relationship changes, Like, hey, everybody,
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  Speaker 2: if we can just figure out sleep, everything else is
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: going to feel manageable.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, thank you so much, first of all for sharing
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  Speaker 1: your story. And I think you know, so many of
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: us can relate to that you have a baby and
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  Speaker 1: like it's it's it's a transition.
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  Speaker 4: To say that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know what I love about your perspective, Chrissy,
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  Speaker 1: that I think is so valuable and i'd love to
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  Speaker 1: unpack a little bit. Is this, you know, as marriage
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: and family therapists, I think that we have a different
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: point of view around what can cause issues and also
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: the solutions that has a more systemic kind of influence,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: let's say, And I would love to get your take
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: on how many of your clients may be even in
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: your own life. You know, when we're not having a
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  Speaker 1: good time in our relationships, when we're feeling stressed out
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  Speaker 1: and overwhelmed and like we're you know, failing, flailing whatever
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  Speaker 1: you want to call it, but particularly relationships, you know,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: I think it can be so easy to look outside
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  Speaker 1: and say this is not going well because of you,
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  Speaker 1: or because we're incompatible, or because of something between us,
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  Speaker 1: or there's some like kind of deep dark trauma or
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  Speaker 1: like old emotional processing that needs to happen versus I'm
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  Speaker 1: getting three hours of sleep, and maybe that has something
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: to do with it.
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  Speaker 4: Like, where does that shake out for you?
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  Speaker 1: I think it's such an important question because when people
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  Speaker 1: start attributing a lot of their problems and their feelings
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  Speaker 1: to all kinds of other stuff, sometimes with the support
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  Speaker 1: of well meaning therapists, by the way, not only do
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  Speaker 1: they miss the primary problem, but like that can cause
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  Speaker 1: a lot of other downstream consequences, you know.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so what do you say?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a ton of data that supports
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  Speaker 2: that too.
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  Speaker 3: You know. I always go back to kind of the
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  Speaker 3: basics that a lot of us learned.
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  Speaker 2: In early undergraduate psychology classes now as those hierarchy of needs.
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  Speaker 2: When our core needs are not met, we can't get
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  Speaker 2: to those higher level operations. And I think you're right.
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  Speaker 2: You know, a lot of times, as well meaning therapists,
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  Speaker 2: we plaze right on past the core things of like
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: how much water have you been drinking?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Have you moved your body meaningfully lately? Have you had
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  Speaker 2: a vegetable this week?
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  Speaker 3: You know?
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: And none of that is like the fun buzzy stuff
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  Speaker 2: to uncover. But truly, when we are not getting good sleep,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: everything feels bigger. Emotionally, your rational logical thinking processes do
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: not operate smoothly. We are far more likely to take offense.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: We are far more likely to live in self doubt, insecurity, depression, anxiety,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: and it's so much easier to look at everybody else
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: and everything else, and so, you know, even down to
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: the basics of depression and anxiety, most of us, when
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: we're not feeling good, we look at the people in
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: our system that are most likely to blame. I think
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: anybody in a relationship has realized maybe a couple of times.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: That the source of a squabble was actually.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: I'm overreacting because I'm really tired, or actually I'm overreacting
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  Speaker 2: because I'm really hungry. Forgive me, Forlara, that my brain
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  Speaker 2: went on the fritz for us. So God in the
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  Speaker 2: transition to parenthood and some of these really vulnerable life
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  Speaker 2: transitions where we are in survival mode. Very often we
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  Speaker 2: either think that sleep deprivation is just something that we
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  Speaker 2: have to deal with, it's the new normal, it's the
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: way that things are now, and we're not looking at
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  Speaker 2: the systemic impact that that has when you maybe aren't
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: feeling as warm and fuzzy about your baby, or you're
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: not feeling as warm and fuzzy about your partner, and
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  Speaker 2: there's so much out there about what could be the
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: cause and the solution and division of labor and mental
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  Speaker 2: load and all of that stuff is real and needs
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: time and attention.
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  Speaker 3: And also any division of labor inequity is going to
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  Speaker 3: feel so much bigger if you are exhausted.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I love everything that you're saying right now, and
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  Speaker 1: this is so important on so many levels. But I think,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: you know, we're living at an interesting place and time
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: in our culture. I think where you know, everybody has
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: an opinion about the origin of our dissatisfaction and what
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: the problem is. And I think that it is much
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: sexier to talk about, you know, like the wounds and
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: the inequality and all like the things and the stuff
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: versus somebody like me and you coming in and being
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: like okay, so like physical stuff first, always that is
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: the foundation, and I think sometimes it's just not part
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: of the conversation at all. But you know, so before
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I became a therapist, my undergraduate degree was in biology,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: which for a while I was like, oh, that's so boring,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: But now, honestly, like and later in my profession, I
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: am appreciating it so much because I think that so
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: much of how we think and feel and behave is
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: deeply tied to our physiology.
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  Speaker 4: A lot more than people often think it is.
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  Speaker 1: And so you know, people can spend years in therapy,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: not that that isn't valuable, you know, but like peel
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: and onions and stuff, and there's like metabolic processes that
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: need to be sorted out or sleeping or you know,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: I mean like a lot of other stuff. And I
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  Speaker 1: have had personal experiences with clients where, you know, I've
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: tried more traditional therapeutic approaches and missed the fact. Honestly,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: and I'm not proud to say this, but I missed
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: the fact that they were dealing with a physical thing.
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: They treated the physical thing and it was like fliping a.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Switch, like wow, yes, it's yeah. And so that's your perspective.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: So so how do you even begin. I mean, somebody's
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: coming in hot and they're like, I'm losing my mind
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: and hate my life and I hate my partner and
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be a mom anymore, like falling apart.
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: Where do you even start?
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question, because you know, I
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: kind of have these two different worlds. I'm so ingrained
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: in this and infant sleep and maternal mental health and
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: everything that I do online and with the Buck, and
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: then I also have a regular clinical practice where a
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: lot of my clients don't know that I'm a sleep expert.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: They don't know that I even have to wander.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: They're like, oh, myop, I had no idea, And I'm like,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: so sometimes with my traditional run of the milk client
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: that comes in, there's a little bit of like do
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: you know that I'm the sleep lady? Like can we
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: get this buttoned up? Because I think it's truly optimizing.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Sleep is the low hanging fruit for everything else. But
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: you're right, it's not that sexy, and so it it's
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: something that.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: I just circle back to a lot. You know, the
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: baseline prescription for well being is getting deep, restorative sleep.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: You got to drink water, you have to have purposeful movement.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: We got to look at nutrition like we have to,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: like you're saying, unpack the underlying optimal physiology. If we
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: do not have that, we cannot expect that dopamine and
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: serotonin are just gonna flow. So you know, but everybody's
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: also here for the peeling back the onion, figuring out
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: the trauma, and so yeah, I have to kind of
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: skate both and like, I know that you want this
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: other thing, but it's gonna work better if we get
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: this button news. Yeah, and then you know, in my
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: other world with infant sleep, but so much about helping
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: new parents realize that getting good sleep for your baby
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: as efficiently as possible is an investment for them and
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: an investment for you. And the systemic trickle down is massive,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: and you know, there's a lot of noise in the
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: parenting space. One of my favorite chapters in my book,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: If I'm Tooting my Own Horn is everyone's an expert
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: now and everything is on fire, because that's kind of
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: how it.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like and subscribe, but that's great, but I mean
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: that's what gets eyeballs and people are like, oh my gosh,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's that reactivity and the emotionality
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: of it, but it's like, yeah, gets everybody all crazed.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, And so you know, one of the kind of
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: narratives that I'm trying hard to fight against is this
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: idea that loving mother sacrifices every ounce of herself for
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: the well being of her children. I'm kind of letting
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: everybody know like that might work for a little while,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: and you might feel like a really great mom your
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: first couple of years, but you can't pour from an
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: empty cup, you can't draw water from an empty well.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Like that does not work big picture, And so much
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: of my clinical practice focuses on you know, when we
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: play the tape forward fifteen years and you've lost your
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: identity along the way. Now your kids are teenagers, they
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: don't respect you, they talk back, You aren't connected to
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: your partner anymore, and your.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: Life does feel like it's on fire.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: And really, as you know, I started out as a
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: young mom myself trying to figure out what are the
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: small impactful changes and investments that we could have all
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: made earlier to prevent this chaos down the road. I mean,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: my approach is about baby sleep, but really that's like
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: it's kind of just my foot in the door to
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: be Like, let's talk about family functioning and investing in self,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: investing in well being, investing in relationship and attachment in small,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: simple ways early on, because my investment pays off and
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: dividend well.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, So on the other side of this break, I'd
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: love to talk more about what this looks like in
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: practice and that that I mean, what a great theme, right,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: is that you're not doing anybody any favors when you
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: are just going and depleting yourself and like scrape in
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: the bottom of the barrel, especially for extended periods of time,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: and it can happen with parenting. But also I think
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: that especially especially in in you know, American culture, that
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: can be our orientation towards sleep.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: Sleep. As for mortals, It'll be fine, drink more coffee.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep going, right, and then that takes a
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: toll over time. So on the other side of the break,
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  Speaker 1: let's talk about how to notice that and then start
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  Speaker 1: slash lhs. All right, you guys, coming back with our
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: very special guest, Christy Lailer. She is the founder of
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: The Peaceful Sleeper and the author of the new book
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: A Peaceful Sleeper, an Intuitive Approach to Baby Sleep. But
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: she talks to it everybody about their sleep, don't you crazy?
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: Okay?
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Ill?
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: So I would love to if it's okay, and I
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: know that you go into all of this and much
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: more expensive detail in your book and different things that
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: you offer. But you know, for the purpose of this conversation,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: what does it look like when people have not been
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: paying attention to sleep, either personally or with their kids
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: or their babies, Like, you know, because first of all,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: the problem has to come onto our radar as something
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: that we need to do something about, and that can
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: be dramatic. But so what does it look like when
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: people are finally like, okay, fine, I'm going to start
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: taking this seriously.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Unfortunately, I think it often comes too late when
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: the big things happen. You know, we.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Get diseases, we have major health challenges, we have breakdowns,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: we have relational breakdowns. A lot of times when we
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: don't deserve.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Our well being.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Really we get to a point where, you know, we
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: look back with a lot of sugar kuda on us.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: And so that's one.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Thing that I want to kind of raise the rest
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: about that we cannot keep going running on empty.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: It does not work.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it works for a minute, but then like no,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: but what you're saying like, don't let it get to
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: that point your your life doesn't actually have to be
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: burning down. So the smaller, but the smaller indications.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: Because you know, the thing is is I guess not on.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: A lot of people's radar, you know that like, yes,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: yes we should get eight hours to sleep, Yes, I
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: shoulder water, all the things like, but then they don't
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: because you know, like what what is the mindset that
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: gets in the way? And what what is the mindset
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: you want to share that will help people just even
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: start to notice if maybe this is something to work on.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think the mindset that gets in
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: the way, and I I'll put myself in this category.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: I fall prey to this.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: But like the hustle culture, the achievement is worth. Value
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: is based on productivity. You have to earn love, respect, safety, admiration.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that really has done us a
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: disservice as we continue to turn up the dial generation
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: after generation after generation, especially our American hustle culture. You know,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: my husband and I went on a trip to Nepal
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: for our ten year anniversary and it was so inspiring
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: to see people just sitting on.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Their port and I was like, when is what are
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: we doing? It's like chilling.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: You know, we have a foreign man in our neighborhood.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: And my kids will say like, yeah, there's that guy.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: He's an older gentleman, but like he just stands out
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: on his front steps and just watch it.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, you know what, good for him?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I wish that I had a little more sit and
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: chill and watch in me.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: And so often, you know, it's like what are you
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: doing with your time? Go go go, go, go go go.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Even earlier this morning, I had a session that canceled,
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: and I was instead of just sitting in my office
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: and enjoying the break, I was like, great, I have
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: fifteen things on my to do list and I was
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: calling two different customer service at the same exact times.
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, oh my god.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: So I think that's a big piece of it that
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: goes away. And I think with social media, with seeing
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: what everybody's up to all the time, that can make
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: it a little bit worse and you know, feeling like, okay,
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: we have to be doing eighteen things at once. I
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: think the antidote is really sitting and reflecting on what
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: is the legacy that I want to leave, you know,
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: when my life is over, what do I want to
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: have done? Randomly I have I'm thirty eight years old,
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: I've had three heart attacks, so seriously. Yeah, yes, it
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: was wild.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: So I was thirty four when I had my first
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: heart attack, and it was really humbling to recognize. And
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, we don't have to go into all my
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: house trauma, but it's crazy to not have answers and
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: to really come to grips with like I have no
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: idea what my future holds and how much time I
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: actually have left on this earth.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: And I don't know if I want my legacy with
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: my four kids to be that I was the mom
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: that was always going and never fully present.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you know, unfortunately, I think a lot
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: of people have the wake up call when the big
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: scary thing happens, and I wish it didn't have to
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: come to Yeah.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: I get okay, I'm so sorry that you went through that.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: That must have been horrifying.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: I didn't know that was a thing. It's terrifying.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: And I am also hearing that that understandably like life
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: experience as traumatizing as I'm sure it was also turned
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: into this like a Memento Mary type of perspective, right,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: like we are all actually going to die, nobody's getting
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: out of here alive, right, And to be to be
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: thinking close up around, Like, so, so what does this
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: mean for me today in terms of how I want
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: to show up and what I want to do? And
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: guessing you started, well, I don't want to assume you
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: tell me like paying more attention to your physical health? Yeah,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: whether it would just hurry.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: If my husband was on the call right now, he
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: would be like, wait a second, you did not necessarily
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: slow down that much.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: But it's something that I am trying to be cognizant of,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: an unwinding.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: You know, what is.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: It within me, within us that feels like no, go go, go,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: go go, and truly like, is that the meaning of life?
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Is that what we are here for?
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I think all of us would say, no, it's not.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: We don't We don't have to.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Fill every second of every day with productivity. And why
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: is basic functioning like sleep undervalue?
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: Like what did actually happened?
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Right? Such such a powerful and important message, And I'm
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: so glad you're saying these things out loud? Did you
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: tell me if this is wrong? But like, maybe anytime
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: you're starting to feel down or anxious or stressed or
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: burned out, or like things are hard or that it's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: a little bit out of control, maybe get curious, perhaps
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: even suspicious, about whether or not sleep might be.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: One of the things to look at for.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: So say somebody does that and they're like, oh yeah,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: like you know, my sleep ebbs and flows.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: Some nights are better than others. Last night not a
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: good night.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: But like somebody saying, yeah, you know what, this is
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: probably impacting the way that I'm thinking and feeling and
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: showing up with my partner, with my kids at the job,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: and I would like to change this.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: Let's start with just individual adults.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: I also, I cannot let you out of here before
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: we talk about like the baby situation.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: Like where does one begin?
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: I mean step one reading Chrissy Lawler's new book, Yes,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: The Peaceful Sleeper.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: But then what Yeah, So this is where it's difficult
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: because the solutions are not sexy. They're all the things
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: that we've heard.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Before that we do a little bit of, like la
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: la la la la, cool story. I don't want anyway,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: I will tell you anyway. So I'm the most important
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: things to do first and foremost reorient yourself to sleep
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: being a top value. I joke all the time that
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: sleep is a family value. And there's some programming and
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: reprogramming that you have to do, like I have a fun, loving,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: outgoing person and to climb into bed at eight point
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: thirty on a Friday night and know like, oh, it's
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: gonna feel so good to get sleep, Like you reprogram
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: that dopamine in so that you build the reward system
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: for really great sleep and have that be something incredible
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: instead of I'm such a loser.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: I'm going to bed at eight thirty on a Friday night.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: So that's part of it. Recognizing that sleep is a
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: core value and that it is so worth it.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: And and pleasure, like I love this. There's no where
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: else I would rather be right now. I can't wait
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: like that kind of thing exactly.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, Another really important thing is stop doing other stuff
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: in bed.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: I have been guilty for years of.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Having my laptop in bed checking emails. You know a
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: lot of us scroll before we go to sleep, Like
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: get your phone out of your bed, a lot pop.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: Out of your bed.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Don't eat in bed, you know, don't chat on the
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: phone with your sister in bed. Keep the bed reserved
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: for sleep and sex, and do everything else somewhere else.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Maybe the most important and hardest one to do is
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: get out of bed if you're not sleeping.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: That's where you know what I did that last night?
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I could not sleep and I was like and I
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: got back up. Yeah, but okay, why why is that
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: so important as opposed to just like laying there being like,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I still sleeping.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I encourage you to do a little test
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: with yourself. I'm willing to bet that because you got
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: out of bed last night and didn't let yourself just
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: stay there in bed, you're probably going to sleep better night. Okay, Yes,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: So resting in bed is kind of like junk food
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: for our sleep system. For something like if I'm starving
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: and I grab a bag of funions, I'm not gonna
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: be starving.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: But will my body appreciate that? I don't think, oh god, I'm.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: A Cheetos girl personally, but find Okay, all right, I
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: get this. You're saying that it can kind of like
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: ease it for a second, but it's really like not,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: go well, why is I I've never heard anybody.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: Say that before.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Why is resting in bed this equivalent of junk food
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: for sleep?
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Because our sleep system thinks that it counts for something,
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: But it also programs your brain that the bed is
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: the place where I lie awake at night, thinking, strategizing, planning, overthinking,
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: planning that conversation, catastrophizing, catastrophizing, doing all the things. And
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: so it's kind of like Pavlov's dogs, Like when we
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: lay in bed, either praying for sleep or doing all
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: of the thinking and overthinking, we are reinforcing I'm a
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: bad sleeper. I wish I could sleep, but I can't sleep,
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: but soon again exactly.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: And then the bed is the place where your brain
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: amps up instead of wind down. Okay, so it's unpleasant,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: but it's short term.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Get up out of bed if you're.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Not sleeping, and then come back to bed when you
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: have enough sleep pressure to fall asleep quickly. It's almost
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: like and I almost of us don't do this anymore,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: but it's kind of like the idea of having a
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: picky eater, Like, hey, if you don't want broccoli, then
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: you can try having breakfast tomorrow. You know, like if
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: there is a little bit more desperation, a little bit
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: more pressure, then your body is primed to take what
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: it can get, and you're kind of calling the bluff
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: on your sleep system and it's like, hey, Lisa, if
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: you're not going to be sleeping, you don't get to
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: stand in bed. You can come back to bed when
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: you're gonna fall asleep. And when you kind of hold
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: that firm boundary with yourself your sleep system real quick,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: is like all right, yes, ma'am, I will sleep when
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I am here.
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: This is some tough love and boundaries. Okay, okay, so
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: so much John Pack.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: First of all, can I just ask, maybe this is
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: like a newbie question, but I'm sure some of our
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: friends here are like, what is the answer to this question?
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: How long is long enough?
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: How long do you lay there?
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, okay, I'm gonna get up? Is it
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: like twenty minutes? Is it an hour?
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: How long do you give it?
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, so it's about thirty minutes, okay, but you're gonna
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: shoot yourself in the foot if you start watching the
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: clock and you're like, it's twenty five minutes.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: I only have five more minutes that I can lay here.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: I better follow asleep quickly.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: And so for those anxious perfectionists listening, focus more on
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: your body. And I think when we're being honest with ourselves,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: we kind of know what a middle of the night
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: wake up is gonna look like and feel like. There
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: are the times that you wake up and you're like, yeah,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: that I'll fall back asleep, and there are the times
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: that you wake up and you're like, this is probably
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: going to be two hours. Okay, if you know, I
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: think I'm in it for the long haul, get out
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: of bed, Go meal plan, Go build an Ikia table,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Go do a puzzle out in the living room.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: I don't even care if you watch TV in the
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: living room.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Do whatever you can do that's not in bed, and
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: come back to bed when you have enough sleep pressure
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: to fall back asleep.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: That might not be tonight. But one of our favorite
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: sayings in CBTI is if not tonight, then probably tomorrow night.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: If not tomorrow night, then most assuredly the night after that.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: We do not usually string together more than three nights
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: in a row of garbage sleep.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so that's great, And you know that's
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: what happened to me last night. I was just like,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: I'm not falling, just like got back up. But what
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: you're saying is, if I could restate this that when
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: you call the bluff so to speak, and practice this, well,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to get up for a couple hours
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: and almost intentionally move into that space. You are increasing
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: sleep pressure. That's the term you've used a couple of times.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: And the analogy is that that's that's almost like a hunger, right,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: that if you are eating something when you're hungry, broccoli
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: dastes really good, and that if you allow the sleep
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: pressure to rise, it will make it much easier to
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: just like lay down and go to sleep. And that's
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: what you want, okay, but you have to kind of
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: do that for a little while.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, I do have a caveat for the busy moms,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: the high achieving women, the abb active anxious brains. This
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: is not official CBTI recommendation, but anecdotally and that's what
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: I do. I recommend that you find something to listen
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: to if you have a brain that just will not
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: shut off and laying in bed is like, yeah, it
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: would be great to not thinking thing things, but like
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know how to turn my active brain off.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: I say, find a podcast an audio book to listen
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: to turn it on the sleep timer so you don't
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: have to be paying attention to like am I you know?
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: Has it been fifteen minutes has it been thirty And
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: then pick something that is engaging enough so your mind
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: won't wander, but not so interesting that you're going to
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: want to stay awake and keep listening to it.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, so self help books. For some reason, I really
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: like economics podcasts. I'm not like an economics girly, but
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of the good podcasts where entertaining enough.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so find something to.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Just give you that boost. I don't need to think
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: about eight million things. I'm going to think about just
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: one thing and then drift back off.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: That is such an amazing strategy. I'm going to try
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: that one economics podcasts. Here I come. So we need
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: to take another quick break.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: And on the other side of this, Chrissy, I would
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: love to hear you talk more about some of the
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: relational and systemic aspects of this, like what you know
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: problematic sleep does to a marriage, also though for parents
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: who are struggling without like you know, insomniac to your
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: old drunk roommate phase of life, whatever that is.
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: But before we move, can I this is just.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Like a personal thing that I have discovered that I
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: think was probably part of the culprit for me yesterday,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: And I just want to say this out loud because
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: it resonates. I have to be really careful about how
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: much caffeine I can consume during the day. And like
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I remember it was probably a few months ago, but
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: I switched brands of coffee and I didn't even think
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: I was drinking that much coffee earlier in the day.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: But I could not sleep for the life of animals.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: What's going on and then change?
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: So like it can be everything that you're talking about
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: is so appropriate, but there are also like stimulant consumption.
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: Just have it on your radar. Yeah, that's fair to say.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: Okay, yes, one hundred percent.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: I think afternoon coffee is going to bite you in
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: the bot at three am. Yeah, and your evening winds
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: down glass of wine is also going to shoot you
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: in the foot.
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: I hate to be the bearer of that noon Okay,
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: it just does.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, friend, all right, so you guys stay with us.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: On the other side of this, Chrissy Lawler is going
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: to spill all the beans about what goes on in relationships.
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: When people aren't sleeping well.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: And how to start turning all this around as a
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: couple and as a family. You have million dollar business
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: ideas and the confidence that you can bring so much
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: value into the lives of others if you actualize these ideas.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: The issue is all the upper rational details. Shopping carts, checkouts,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: follow up emails, How do people find out about you?
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: How do you put together a website with functionality? What
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: about shipping, returns, follow up emails? So many things, and
• 38:13
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• 38:38
  Speaker 4: Yes, I did say.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Free trial at shopify dot com slash LHS. Hey, we
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: are back with Chrissy Lawler LFT, founder of The Peaceful Sleeper.
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: And Christy.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Just before the break, you Pinky promised that you were
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: going to share some of your insights as a marriage
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: counselor and family therapist around what can start to happen
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: to relational dynamics when one or both people are not sleeping.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, first and foremost, I think it's
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: in the little things.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: Though, you know, I love that idea of a love bank.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: You know that we have deposits, and we have.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Withdrawals, and so much of sleep deprivation will impact those
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: little tiny withdrawals or diminishing those relationships deposits. So we
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: don't notice the good kind things that our partner has done.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: We might not notice the bids for connection or when
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: somebody was trying to make conversation with you. Resentments feel bigger.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: We do notice when your partner didn't slow the dishes
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: in the dishwasher, and so our perception starts to get
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: skewed towards the negative, and we are we have we
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: don't have as good of a filter when we are
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: exhausted and upset. So instead of hey, sweetheart, can you
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: please put your dishes in the dishwasher next.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: Time, you might have more of a high dishes dishwasher
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: would be nice. And so it's those little, tiny micro
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: interactions that really suffer the most.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know also, and look, I get it. There's
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: a whole nother conversation that we can have about intimacy.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: But if we're looking stereotypically.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: What is the number one reason that women do not
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: connect intimately. I'm tired, right, And so.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: When we have increase in misperception, we are increasingly attuned
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: to the negative. We are increasingly feeling like a victim
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: because we're not attuned to the positive. We have blown
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: conversations out of proportion. We also don't have the energy
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: or bandwidth to do connecting activities like going on a
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: walk together, playing a sport together, going out on a date,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: connecting intimately. So there's so much resentment that starts to
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: build and the good investments in the relationship that fall
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: by the wayside because we feel desperate and survival. And then,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: you know, and that's even in the best healthiest relationships,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: where that.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: Impact might take five or ten years to really be help.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: But sometimes, you know, I work with a lot of
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: new couples that you know, they were really happy until
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: they had a baby, and now they're having these knockdown,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: drag out fights and.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: They're swearing at each other.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: And name calling and fighting in front of the baby
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: and thinking about divorce and not to mention, you know,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: and I get it, Like I struggled with anxiety when
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: I had my first baby, and everything feels really big,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: but so often, undertreated, maternal anxiety turns into nitpicking criticism,
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: you're not doing this thing right, what is wrong with you?
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: That can turn into maternal gatekeeping, like I don't really
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: trust you to do this thing right, so I'm gonna
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: do everything.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: And then wait, I feel like I'm doing.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Everything and you're never helping, And then it just they
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: can evolve quickly or slowly if we let sleep deprivation
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: erode our relationships.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Just taking us all in Christy, there's a lot of
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: I mean no really like it's such a beautiful job
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: of explaining all of these powerful systemic factors. But also
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: the system here is that it starts to take on
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: a life of its own. And I think we can
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: all relate, right, I mean feeling exhausted and then it
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: takes energy to be like extra nize or playful or
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: you know, like give some energy into a relationship. And
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: when you're exhausted, you're like you just don't. That takes
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: us up, and there's like layers and layers, and then
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: nobody's being intimate, right, and that's another layer. And then
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: and then the negativity if you're exhausted and you feel
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: like you can barely cope and you're overwhelmed, and here's
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: one more thing that you need to do because your
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: partner isn't doing it, and the resentment and all the things,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: and it.
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: Just all piles up. And that's when people will land
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: in a couple's.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Counselor's office and be like, you know, the problem is
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: them and it's because of their family, and they never
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: learn how to communicate. And I think they're you know,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: that might be a narcissist because they don't even care,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: like all this stuff, and it turns into these stories, right,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: like distressed relationships. Over time, it turns into like character
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: flaws and who you are as a person and all
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: the stuff. When what you're saying, Chrissy is like you're exhausted,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: go to sleep, and this whole thing. Not not to
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: say that there isn't also relationals everybody has to have
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: to work on, but like.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, you know, and even when you said that,
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: it flashed me back to when we got married, and
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: kind of I hope it's changed. But the advice at
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: the time was never go to bed angry. I hate
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: that and I remember, you know, I had a professor
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: that specifically called that out and he was like, what
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: do you think the alternative is stay up and fight.
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: To bed, angry, sleep on it, wake up next to
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: each other, and let's try again when we have a
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: full tank.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that is so true. It was not
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: even that long ago. I was exhausted.
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: I've been going, going, going, and we were having a
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: new couch delivered am. I was like, yeah, you know.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: I was like, we're gonna put it here, right, and
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: he's like, well, I mean, you know, I don't know,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: maybe it's and I was.
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: Like, we need to put it here.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Like I don't even know what was I had this
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: massive meltdown and I was out, you know, I've got
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: a good night's sleep. And then the next morning I
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: was like, I don't even know what about that was
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: upsetting to me anymore, Like it's so real, and you know,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: so like before we make big sweeping judgments about our
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: partners and our marriages, like you know, pulling the divorce trigger, like,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: take a look at this because it's so so real.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm also you know, I have four daughters
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: and it's been you know, because I was a therapist
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: before I even had kids. So it's been really meaningful
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: for me too when I lose it with my kids
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: and go back to repair to identify, like, I didn't
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: handle this situation, well, you had very normal kid behavior.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: It was frustrating to me, but it did not warrant
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: that level of an overreaction. I think I'm tired, and
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: that's not your that's my fault, and I apologize. And
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: it's wild now having a thirteen year old who will
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: literally come back in the morning and say, I think
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: I was really tired yesterday and I majorly overreacted.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: When oh my gosh, that that is so awesome.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: It's so great, And so I think like when we
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: can identify sleep as a trigger, it also empowers our
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: children to have some self awareness and a really solid
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: tool in their.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Own toolbox, which is our goal as parents to arm
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: our children to be able to have their own tools
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: in the world. So that's one of those things. Even
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: you know, with my five year old, she'll be melting.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: Down and she'll say, I think I'm tired.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's awesome.
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: We're still working. We have a seven year old almost eight,
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: and she'll fight with me. I'll be like, you know what, I
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: think maybe you're.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Touched like that, you know, but like that that will
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: freak out, But what this is so good? Like you know,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: you have to take care of your body if you're
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: going to be an emotionally safe person. And you know
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: we've been talking about couple's dynamics and that there could
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: be all other stuff, but like you know, even just
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: like how you show up as an emotionally safe parent
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: with kids and not some you know, hair trigger like
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: freak out scary person. That matters so much in terms
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: of this foundational relationship but their their ability to learn
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: from you. How do I regulate emotions? How do I
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: repair after I do pop off? And let you know
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: that physical attunement, Like I need to take care of
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: my body if I'm going to be okay, and sometimes
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: I don't and I need to you know, own that.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, I saw the most beautiful video now was a
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: couple of months ago, but it stuck with me.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: It was this.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: Cute little baby sitting in his high chair and mom
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: came up behind him and was like happy and dancing
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: and just really being really bubbly and exuberant, and within
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: maybe fifteen seconds, he starts bobbing along and then he's
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: dancing too, And it was such a beautiful mirror to
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: me that the way that we show up deeply impacts
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: our kids.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: And then, of course, because my bias is towards sleep,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: like the exhausted mom ain't dancing at breakfast, we are,
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: you know, so all of the micro interactions shift when
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: we're exhausted and we're surviving and.
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: You put the oatmeal in front of them and then
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: they throw the spoon and you're like, stop is so
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: different than happy, cheerful, dancing, bubbly mom. And all of
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: those micro interactions deeply impact our attachment with our children
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: and what they then start to believe about themselves and
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: the relationship. And like you've mentioned, you know, just the
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: whole systemic piece. If we can button up sleep, everything
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: else goes better.
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: Amazing.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: This has been such an amazing conversation. I know I
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: only have you for a couple more minutes, but I'm
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: realizing that we really didn't even touch on one of
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: the core topics of your new book, The Peaceful Sleeper,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: which is really primarily around how to support healthy sleep
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: habits in infants in early childhood.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: This whole conversation has centered around how important sleep is
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: in all of our relationships. And when you have a
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: brand new baby, we know that they're not necessarily going
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: to sleep well right out of the.
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: Gate, and it's not poor.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Sleep is not just something that we have to radically accept.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: There is still a little bit of radical acceptance there
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: that they have brand new neurology, they have a brand
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: new brain. But good quality sleep is something that you
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: can teach your infants like we teach every other aspect
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: of development. First we fully support that thing, and then
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: we slowly release support as they gain independence.
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: And there is a formula, there is a.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: Framework for that that you can tailor to your parenting paradigm.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: It does not have to be this like one size
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: fits all, that like full blown cry it out or
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: full blown gentle parenting. It's all about tuning in to yourself,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: to your baby, how they learn, how you teach, and
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: recognizing that as important as sleep is for us as adults,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: it's even more important for a brand new, fresh developing brain.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: Good quality sleep is the kindest, most impactful gift that
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: you can give them.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Absolutely so you know their development, what your family experience
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: is like, but also your own experience. If you can
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: have a baby that sleeps well so much here So you, guys,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: this has been an amazing conversation has in it with
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: with Chrissy Lawler. She's the founder of The Peaceful Sleeper
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: and her new book is The Peaceful Sleeper, An Intuitive
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: Approach to Baby Sleep. Chrissy, this has been so interesting
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: and helpful.
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: Know I have benefited from starting this time, were you after?
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: Our friends here with us have as well?
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: But where would people go to learn more about you
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: and your work and your solutions?
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: Ah? Yes, thank you, thank you for having me. The
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: best place to find me is online.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: My website is the Peaceful Sleeper dot com. All social
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: channels are the dot peaceful dot Sleeper, And like you said,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: the name of the book is also the same, The
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Peaceful Sleeper and Intuitive Approach to be Sleep The Peaceful Sleeper.
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: Okay, well, thank you again so much for your time.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: This week, you for having me.
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: If you're ready to.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Do this work, it can be so so helpful, crucially
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: so to get connected with a professional who can guide
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: you along this path forward.
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: So let's talk for just a same second about how to.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: Do that, Because, as you've heard me talk about probably
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: many times on the show. If you're a regular listener,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: it can be very easy to get involved with a
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: wrong kind of helping professional, and that can have a
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: lot of unintended downstream consequences. I think that there's not
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: a lot of good information circulating in our culture right
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: now about how to assess an appropriate helper depending on
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: what it is that you need. So thank you for
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: indulging me just for a couple of minutes while I
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: talk you through this. So what you heard Chrissy and
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: I talk about is a systemic and very relational point
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: of view.
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: That is by design.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: She and I are both licensed marriage and family therapists,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: and so this means that we went through a graduate
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: program that was really focused specifically on relational dynamics, family dynamics,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: systemic dynamics, and that our training is on how to
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: change the way that people are showing up so we
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: can create changes in the bigger system. And so I
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: think that that probably echoed down to you from what
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: she and I were talking about today. But what you
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: should know is that this is a fairly unique perspective
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: of our profession as marriage and family therapists, and that
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: most therapists, I would say ninety to ninety five percent
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: of therapists are not marriage and family therapists. They are psychologists,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: they are licensed clinical social workers, they are mental health clinicians,
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: and all of this is great and there is a
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: place for all of it here. It is also true
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: that sometimes a psychologist may may have done additional post
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: graduate training and education in couples in family therapy in particular.
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: But if a.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Therapist has not done that, it is almost guaranteed that
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: they are not going to have a systemic perspective and
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: that they may really be practicing outside of their scope
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: when it comes to relational work, which unfortunately many therapists do.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: They have one class in couples and families something in
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: graduate school and then like hang a shingle, be like yeah,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: I'll work with couples, And that can go very very
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: differently because as an individual therapist, and I say this
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: also as a licensed psychologist that was very much an
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: individual type of training, is that we are trained to
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: diagnose and treat clinical mental health conditions. And so if
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: you know, two people walk into the therapy office of
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: a psychologist, it's you know who who who is holding
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: the diagnosis. Let's explore the trauma where's the psychopathology, what's
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: going on is getting in the way, and sometimes there
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: is certainly psychopathology that needs to be treated. Systemic therapies
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: even could be very very helpful for the treatment of
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: clinical mental health conditions. But especially if part of your
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: hopes for couples counseling is oh, well, you know, do
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: you take my insurance? Please know that anytime you do that,
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: you or your therapist is saying that either you or
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: your partner is the identified patient and that we are
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: here not to emperve your communication, but to reduce the
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: active symptoms of the identified patient and electing to do
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: it with the other person in the room and participating
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: in their psychotherapy.
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: That's what's going on.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: So be very very careful about, you know, making some
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: of those choices coming in the door, because it is
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: not uncommon for people to get involved with a therapist
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: who is not an LMFT and think that they're there
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: to improve their relationship, especially if they want to take
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: their insurance, and that is not actually what happens in
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: the room. It can be to the detriment of a relationship,
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: particularly if it turns into like, you know, one person's problem,
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: so that is one thing to know the other thing
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: to know that even among LMFTs, like something that you
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: might have heard on Chrissy's approach is that it's very practical,
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: action oriented, like let's assess, let's see what the problem is,
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: and then let's build an action plan to changing this
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: outcome so that we can experience XYZ. That is very
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: consistent with a coaching framework that is not necessarily going
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: into all of the deep dark places. Certainly recognizing it, right,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: but we're not here necessarily to treat clinical mental health conditions.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: It is instead to take a look at what are
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: the outcomes you're getting now, what is creating the outcomes
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: you're getting now, and what needs to happen differently in
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: order to get different results.
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: Then not just getting insight.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: Into what the problem is, but how do you create
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: a meaningful action plan to be putting into practice the
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: things that we're talking about so that it's not just
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: you know, churning endlessly about all the things. And you know,
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: there's a time and place to talk about the hard parts.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Not going to evalidate that, but then there's also like that, well,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: what are we going to do about it? That is
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: a coaching psychology framework, and that is even more rare
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: among therapists than having an LMFT credential. So, if in
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: listening to this you are feeling inspired to make changes
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: in your relationship that are very relationally informed, that are
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: systemically focused, and that are also action oriented, focused on
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: who you are, what you want, and then what to
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: do to make that happen, you'll want to look for
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: an LMFT who also has training and experience in coaching psychology,
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: so you'll look for a coaching credential in addition to
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: an LMFT credential. There's a board certified coach credential. That
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: is what I have, and that is what I teach.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Two therapists who want to add coaching competencies to their
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: therapeutic practice, you might also look for an ICF coaching credential.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: That is a coaching credential that's typically used more in
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: business applications like executive coach type settings, but some therapists
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: also might have that coaching credential. So what you'll look
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: for is an LMFT with a coaching credential who practices
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: relationship coaching. Do not seek services from somebody who is
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: calling themselves a relationship coach who does not have a
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: credential or a qualifying degree in marriage and family therapy.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: Remember that coaching is an unregulated profession. Literally, anyone can
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: call themselves a coach, a relationship coach, or otherwise a
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: hang a shingle and talk about all kinds of things
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: from the other the moon and the stars. But it
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: is actually, you know, based on their own life experiences
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: or stuff that they're kind of winging it. So buyer
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: beware when it comes to getting involved with coaches, you
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: want to look for a licensed therapist who is also
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: a credentialed coach and who specializes in relationship coaching. That way,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: you can be more assured of getting the type of
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: experience that you really want to have.
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: Now, even then.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: It's important to check for goodness of fit. Do you
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: vibe with this person? Do they feel somebody that you
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: would feel comfortable talking with openly? Do you feel like
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: you could be honest with them? And you know the
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: very first thing, like relationships take time to build, even
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: a relationship with the therapist who coaches, so there's that,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: but also make sure that they are informed and that
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: as you are vetting potential helpers, which you should go
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: interview a few of them, say here's what's going on,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: here's what i'd like to work on. How would you
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: help me change this if we were to work together,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: And you should expect that there is some type of
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: coherent answer to that question that makes sense to you,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: that they are following a framework of some kind, that
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: they are talking about evidence based practices that is informed
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: by something, because even professional therapists can sometimes be like, well,
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: you know, we'll process, We'll get to the core issues
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk about them and talk about them and
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: talk about that. Okay, that's great, and you know what,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: if there's trauma at the core, sometimes going back into
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: very hard things and processing it is actually the active
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: ingredient of the work. It is turning terrible memories and
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: life experiences into an articulated story for the purpose of
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: moving things around in your brain. That is absolutely legitimate.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: But just talking about stuff is not a direct line
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: to having it be different in your life. So get
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: very curious, get very intentional. Remember that you have the
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: right to ask questions and be an empowered consumer in
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: the in this space with therapy or with coaching, because
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of different types of therapists and
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: who you work with really does matter when it comes
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: to outcomes. So thank you for listening to all this.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: I hope that this was helpful for you. If you
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: want more just information, free information on how to choose
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: a marriage counsel or differences between diferent types of therapists,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: or I have this type of thing going on, what
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: type of therapist should I get involved with? I have
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: lots of free resources on my website growingself dot com.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: You're welcome to browse all of them. Just go to
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: the free resources section. And of course, in hearing all
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: of this, if you're thinking like yeah, I would really
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: like to work with a relationship specialist an LMFT who
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: is also a Board certified coach who does relationship coaching,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: you're invited to come to growing self and request a
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: free consultation with one of the clinicians in my network
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: who specialize in exactly that. Come to growing self dot
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: com to learn more, see if this is right for you,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: and if so, request a free consultation to see.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: If it's a good fit before moving forward. All right,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: that is a wrap for today.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: Thanks again for tuning in, and I will be back
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: in touch with you very soon for another episode of love,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: happiness and success.