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Addiction to Hook-up and Dating Apps · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:09
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gaiman's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an apologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Lansadel, and joining me today are Michael DiIorio and Reno Johnston. Today we're talking about addiction to hookup and dating apps. And we're going to be exploring questions like how have dating apps negatively impacted your life? How has heavy reliance on dating apps changed our community? And what are some practices you have to maintain a positive relationship with dating apps? So what we want you to get out of today's episode is essentially greater awareness of the impact hookup and dating apps have on you, our community, and what we can do to have more balance when using dating apps. If you are new here, please subscribe to our channel on YouTube. If you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. All right, so first off the top, we did a whole episode on addiction and recovery. We did a two part series. I broke down my whole plethora of information that I have around. I was an addiction counselor for 10 years. I have a lot of insight from there. So that's not what this, today's episode going to be about. We're not going to be unpacking addiction. We're going to be talking more about the negative impact of overuse of the apps. So if you want to learn more about addiction and recovery, you can go and view those two episodes, part one and part two. They're called addiction and recovery. But I will say addiction and compulsion, they tend to be used interchangeably. I would say that compulsion tends to be what would happen before addiction. But and compulsion is going to be inside addiction. You can't have addiction without compulsion. So you might view yourself today through the lens of what we're talking about as, okay, maybe you do have an addiction. Maybe a lot of your major life areas are impacted by how much you're on the dating apps. Or maybe you're someone who's just in the overuse area where you're compulsively checking the apps. You're on them all the time. But maybe it hasn't really significantly impacted your life. How dating apps have changed gay culture. So, you know, I see that it's been for the positive in certain aspects. It's bringing more opportunity for connection. But what I see is the type of connection that it's instilling is more of a superficial connection. More opportunity for treating one another like meat or like a piece of shit. Like these sort of mentalities where, you know, just like any, anything online, right, where you don't actually have to be in front of the person, you can treat them poorly, you can reject them, you can ghost them, these sorts of things. So I think it perpetuates certain problems in our community. And I remember the days of when I was, you know, in my 20s and we didn't have these dating apps and it was go to the bar, meet people, touch them, feel them, smell them. And there was something different about the way it is now. It's very different looking in somebody's eye when you're rejecting them or when you're approaching them or when you're attracted to them than what I'm feeling and seeing now within at least my experience of, of the dating apps. And I also want you to think too, when we're, as we're sharing today, like what are you putting in versus what you're getting out? So are you on the dating apps eight hours a day, you know, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, putting in so much of your time and energy. And then I want you to look at what are you getting out of that, right? Because I think anytime the input and the output become imbalanced, that's when we start to become, we start to have problems, right? And I'm not going to say that would lead to addiction or even compulsion, but it could lead to loneliness, dissatisfaction, anger towards the community, these sorts of things. So anytime we're putting a lot of energy and time into something, we want to make sure that our return on investment is, is meeting the standard. Okay? And then I wanted to read a YouTube comment that I got on one of my YouTube videos on my personal channel. This person, I won't reveal who they are just because they might not want that, but they said, I want an app that is specifically for people who are serious about living and emotionally mature, growth oriented, unpretentious, self aware, non self centered, community oriented life. And this person left this comment yesterday when I was preparing for this episode. So I was like, okay, this is very interesting. So it was fitting. So I felt like it was meant to be shared here because I second that. I also want that. I would love an app for demisexuals too where, you know, we can come together and you know, the thing, you're both looking for matches right away, right? It's like people who are, you know, it's kind of like the Christian mingle of the gay world would be Great. Because that. What we have is probably the closest to that is like Tinder. Right. Which for Tinder in the straight world is like Grindr in the straight world. Right. So it would be cool to have something that's a little bit more for people who are serious and wanting more meaningful connection.
• 5:00
  Speaker B: But Hinge is pretty close, too.
• 5:02
  Speaker A: Yeah, I would say Hinge is even more closer than. Than Tinder, for sure. Yeah.
• 5:06
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 5:07
  Speaker A: Okay. Well, that's. That's what I got for you guys today. So let's start with. With the first question here. How have dating apps negatively impacted your life? And let's start with you, Mr. Michael.
• 5:18
  Speaker C: Yay. I love this topic. I could talk about this for hours. I'll try not to. Okay. Okay. Let me preface by saying, for those of you who follow my work, I talk a lot about dating apps, specifically Grindr. That's been. I've been on Grindr since, like, the day it was born. I might have been one of its first users. So when I speak to it, just keep in mind that that's my general historical background. My preference for all dating apps is that they are. I just want to get my official stance out there before I get into the personal stuff. My official stance on dating apps is that they are incredibly useful search engines, incredibly useful search engines that make it convenient to find potential mates. So it's a search engine, but what I find people do, myself included, is we think that it replaces dating. It's not meant to actually replace dating. So I think, you know, it's a great way to search and meet and puts all these different people at your fingertips, which is so much more efficient than the way we used to do it. But I think what happens is we get stuck in there, and I think that's the issue. So, as I said, my historical app of choice has been Grindr. So keep in mind my. My experiences coming from that. And I guess I should also mention, as always, with our episodes, highly relevant, because as of the beginning of this year, I've decided take a hiatus from Grindr. So I have not been using it since the beginning of the year, which we can talk about that a bit later. Okay, so what the question was is how have the dating apps negatively impacted your life? I have a lot of answers to this, but, you know, I'll stick to the main one, which I think for me has been that it has for me and for a lot of others I'm willing to bet, has dehumanized the dating experience, because again, if we go in with the belief that the dating app is dating, which, again, it is not. The dating app is a search engine, not a date engine. But if you go in with that mentality. And yes, it's a lot easier to reject someone behind a screen. It's a lot easier to say negative things behind a screen. Things that we would not do with a human in front of us, we do on apps. I'm guilty of this, by the way. And so I think we forget basic manners. I think we forget respect. I think that it can be. It makes it very easy to get to a place where it is transactional, exploitative even. And that has led to me feeling a lot of judgment and negativity and pessimism towards the gay community and gay people in general. So when I find myself spending too much time there, and that's a very subjective number, I think we're all. We all have a number. For me, I know what mine is. But when I spend too much time there, it begins to cloud my judgment of the gay community at large. Gay people at large. And then you begin to think, oh, all gay guys are like this. The whole gay community is like this. We believe that the extent of gay people is what we find on, in my case, Grindr. And that is simply just not true. That's just a false statement. But that availability bias will kick in. And availability bias is a mental shortcut where the most immediate examples of a particular group color your overall impression of that group. So let me use a different example. I'll pick on Italians because I'm Italian, so don't come at me for this. But let's say you go and you meet three Italian guys, and they are all, like, angry and yell at you, right? It's very common for your brain to be like, oh, okay, all Italians are angry people. That's just what a mental shortcut your brain will take. It's the availability bias. So similarly, if you're on Grindr and all these people are rejecting you, ghosting you, you know, asking for your dick pic before they even say hello, you're going to begin to think, oh, all gay guys are superficial and trashy and like this, or whatever your story is. And so for me, that has been one of the ways I know when I've. When I need a break, it's kind of like, okay, I'm starting to have a lot of loathing for other gay guys in the gay community at large. So I think that has been my greatest negative impact to me, that I've learned over the years. And I will say One other thing similar to that, a tangent is because of that, I feel like I have lost opportunities. Like, I have potentially met someone on the other side of that screen who could have been a really great guy, someone who I could have really dated. And maybe because in that moment I was horny, or maybe in that moment I just kind of wanted to have that transactional route, which is so much easier to go through, because on Grindr, it's so easy to just hit the button to say, share album and, like, get all the goodies there. I think what I have done is potentially lost out on some really good connections that could have been something more than just a sexting exchange or a pick exchange. And I also feel that way about me. I think when I send those photos myself and people just kind of get what they want, they would just want to see my nudes, and then they move on, which is very common in Grindrland. I feel like they've missed out on the rest of me, which is a great guy who has lots of interests and passions and more depth than that. So, yeah, I'll leave it there.
• 10:05
  Speaker A: You basically just said everything that I was going to say, so I'll just. I want to give more time to you then. I'm curious about a judgment that you carry. What's a judgment that you carry?
• 10:14
  Speaker C: Yeah, the biggest one is that superficiality. It's the one I tend to carry the most. Because, I mean, it's valid. It's not. It's valid. But when it takes over me and then it hurts me, it's like the judgment doesn't hurt other people. I'm the one who has to carry it, and I'm the one who has to feel the. And then when I'm in that space, as we talked about before, I'm not in a space to connect. I'm not in a space to put my best self forward. I'm not. I'm not in an open, loving, accepting space. I'm in a you all suck space. I hate this place space. I hate this app. I just get very angry and frustrated and pessimistic. And I know a lot of you guys out there feel the same way. And I see it, I sense it. Even the way I read comments, I'm like, oh, you are just loath with negativity. And I'm willing to bet a lot of that is connected.
• 11:00
  Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. I see it in myself as well. Yeah, it's hard not to. It's like, man, like, we've kind of pigeon self ourselves into these holes. Right. Pigeon dar holes. And it. It makes it hard. It makes it really hard to be a part of this community. Yeah, I'll share after, but, yeah. Reno, what's this all bringing up for you?
• 11:22
  Speaker B: It's not often that we record an episode where there's grief on my heart and in my chest. And, like, for some reason, this is one of those episodes. I think that, like, I'm hopeful for sure. And there have been so many. There have been and are so many positive benefits to the use of these dating apps. I've just also seen, like, a lot of stuff that has made me sad, I guess. So this is, as I shared when we were planning to record this episode, there was an excitement around recording it because I've been pretty active on Grindr, which is so sort of out of character for me. Like, I generally don't have these dating apps on my phone. And for some reason, last year, maybe around my birthday, something kicked in and Grindr was on my phone and hing. Well, Hinge was on my phone and. And then Grindr was on it a bit later, I think it was. And I've had, like, some really great luck. You know, I went on some really great dates and met a couple of guys in particular who I would really like to see again and likely will. I think what I want to start by saying, and we already sort of touched on it earlier, but, like, I look at addiction as essentially, like, a harmful activity that I continue to engage in despite its negative impacts. And so, for me personally, dating apps have increased my screen time and decreased my time in, like, what I would refer to as true rest. It's the sort of rest that doesn't include mindlessly stimulating activities. It's also detracted me from my time in quiet and solitude, which I sort of mentioned in the last point. And then they've also served as a distraction from feeling whatever dis. Ease or whatever experience unwilling to meet. So, you know, I wrote, like, things like boredom, things like lust, things like loneliness, things like insignificance. Rather than meeting these experiences and digesting them and alchemizing them and reconciling them, all I have to do is reach for this little device that's the end of my fingertips, open Grindr, and I have limitless distraction at my fingertips. Right? And so I would say that's another negative impact. And not just Grindr. I mean apps in general. And I guess I want to emphasize, like, I'm not here to shit on the apps because they do serve a positive purpose and they have, but we're speaking to the negative aspects, right? So I just want that to be clear. And then I think lastly, and this is one of the most important discoveries I've been having as I've been engaging these apps, is that, well, I've enjoyed momentarily satisfying and even genuine sexual encounters. Because I mean, to show up at my house, in my bedroom, you know, it like you're almost always going to get like a genuine experience or to go on a date with me, like, it's just a given. But I would say there are always just a few that are deeply fulfilling and they're with people I have developed a deeper connection with over time especially. So the hookups are just momentarily satisfying in almost every case. You know, like they're not. The satisfaction isn't deep, it's not lasting. It's kind of like the difference between maybe fast food at the end of a night of clubbing or a home cooked meal after a hard but fulfilling day of work. You know, meaningful work. Right. That's kind of how I experience it. So I would say, yeah, those are, those are some of the, the negative impacts and I guess we'll get into it later. But what I would like to say is my experience of these dating apps and the negative impacts of them have also served as a point of contrast and curiosity for like the experiences I want to be having, you know, so it's like, okay, cool, did that. Sometimes it feels good, sometimes it doesn't. Let's explore, you know, so in that sense, again, there's like a layer of gratitude for having access to this and having the awareness to go, okay, I'm having some negative experiences. Do I want to keep having them? If not, you know, what does that look like? Which we'll get into later, obviously. So I think that about covers it. Yeah.
• 16:05
  Speaker A: What's the grief about? I'm curious. Are you still feeling it right now?
• 16:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, I am. I'm glad you asked because I'm not shy. I think it's that I've just had this really, I don't know, fun run in a way, like a fun go at the dating apps. And to be honest, I've met a lot of people. Like, I've met a lot of people. It's been great, you know, like I said, like, in some ways I'll say Joe, like playfully. You know, Reno entered his hoe phase for a moment. Right. And my dating phase too. And the connections have all been meaningful in a way. But also I think what I saw, and this is where the grief Is I. I can feel it now. Is that what I notice? And I might cry, but maybe I won't. I think so many of these men are just, like, really, really, like, thirsty for connection, you know, like, sincere, genuine connection. When you come over and you kick it with me, like, I like candles, you know, and I put music on, and I'm intentional in creating a space. And, you know, some of these guys, like, will cuddle. Like, I'll hold them, and it's just such a nourishing experience for them, you know, And I'm not sitting here, like, trying to gas myself up by any means. I just notice, like, when you scratch the surface, there's just such a desire to be in communion and connection, to be seen, to be held, you know, to be loved on. And I think that moves me to tears because we deserve that. And I feel like sometimes, and not in every case, sometimes a hookup is just what we want to need, or sometimes these. These, you know, these sort of experiences that come with the dating apps are. Are just what we need. But. But also, I would say, yeah, there's a sense that we're sometimes settling for less than, I think, what we truly and deeply want and long for, because we don't realize that there's more available, that more is possible. And maybe we haven't been given the tools to. To see that, to access that, to communicate that, to ask for it. You know, thank God for communities and resources like the gay men's Brotherhood or, you know, the Body Electric School, for example. Right? Like, places like that, that help us access that. So, anyway, that's the grief.
• 18:36
  Speaker A: Yeah. I feel you. I feel you. I think gay men know it. I think they see it. I don't think it's an awareness thing. I think it's a worthiness thing, and I think it's a capacity thing. Do I have the capacity to do this right? It takes skill. It takes worthiness. It takes inner work to be able to let somebody hold you and to put yourself out on the apps in a vulnerable way and all these things. Right. Like, it's a testament to the word I use to describe you as cozy. You bring people over, you light candles, you hold them. Like, it's just. Like, it's very Reno. So it's very beautiful.
• 19:12
  Speaker B: Thank you.
• 19:13
  Speaker A: It's interesting. I. I kind of started this episode a little bit, like, cold. Not cold, but just kind of shut off in a way and just kind of, like. Oh, like, very intellectual about it. And then Reno starts talking about grief, and then I can Feel my grief. And I'm like, oh, God, there's a lot more here than. Than I realized. The first layer is for sure, frustration and anger. And it's like, oh, my God, like, why don't these people have capacity to meet me? Like, that's what I feel. You know what I mean? Like, these apps are. Are just so 5 out of 10. And I'm looking for 10 out of 10, you know what I mean? And it's like, but I want to own my experience here because I also stay in my comfort zone. And I'm cool with 5 out of 10. I'll have a bunch of 5 out of 10 as opposed to one 10 out of 10. And it keeps me in my comfort zone. I don't go out and meet people because I use the apps as like a, you know, the bag of chips. Okay? It does. My hunger. Keeps my hunger at bay. But it's not the meal, right? Like you said, Michael, in the analog used in one of our longtime episodes ago. It's like, I want the 10 course meal, not the bag of chips. So there's grief around that. I feel like, man, I'm turning 40 next year, and I really haven't had the connections from this community that I've been looking for it romantically. I have a ton of platonic, beautiful intimacy connections, but, like, to be able to blend that with sex, like, sexual intimacy, like, it's like, you know, Cricketville. And I have a lot of anger and, and grief and sadness because of that. So there's that piece. And then I think where's a lot. Where a lot of the frustration comes from is I see a lot of these discrepancies. I see and read people's profiles that, you know, looking for monogamy, looking for deeper connection, you know, have a lot of awareness, make sure you're in therapy, blah, blah, blah. All these things. They're saying all the right things on their profile, and then you engage with them and they're not actually, they're not showing up in the. In the ways that they're. Of what they're saying that they're looking for, right? So the discrepancies for me really cause a lot of frustration. And again, it brings me back to the purpose of why I originally started. This is because of this exact issue, not having people be able to match me and meet me where I wanted to be met, right? So I'm like, okay, I want to create a brotherhood where we can start to share and educate and normalize and all the things that we're doing in our community to help people grow and evolve so we can have greater capacity to connect with one another. I just think that's so important for our community. And then I think that the apps have negatively impacted my life in the sense that I've lost community and connection from it as soon as the apps came online. Sure, I've got more quantity of connection, but the quality of connection has gone down significantly from when I was in my 20s, when people had to go out, you had to leave your house if you wanted connection with other gay men. And I think that's so. Yeah, again, I don't want to be the full on, take a big shit on the dating apps, but because there is benefit, for sure. Like, if you. Even if you look at AI, you look at technology, the evolving evolution of technology, like, it's always going to have pros and cons, and we can focus on both. But it is important. It's important to be aware of the negatives and how they could be possibly impacting. So it's an important conversation.
• 22:20
  Speaker B: I want to be transparent here. I'm realizing there's, like, another layer of response to the question you asked me earlier. I realized as you were speaking. Matt, thank you for, in your own way, going first. I think the other piece of the grief that I'm recognizing as you were speaking is that by entering into, let's say, specifically Grindr, to be honest, I'm gonna say, and sort of adopting, in some ways, I would say adopting some of the qualities of that space and culture. I notice, like, I've internalized some of them. And I think, like I said, I'm coming off the tail end of being in that space and just noticing how I feel in my body.
• 23:05
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 23:05
  Speaker B: And in some ways, I'm going to say I feel depleted. And I think that that's part of the grief. And I'm not blaming Grindr for that specifically. Right. There's a piece where I'm very much responsible for what I'm bringing to that space and creating. And again, I'll say more about that later because I have some ideas about it, but I just want to be transparent as opposed to saying, like, oh, you know, Grindr this and people that and whatever. Right. It's like I'm people, too. Right. Like, I'm. I'm complicit as well. So I wanted to own that.
• 23:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I appreciate you're taking responsibility, and I think it's important. Yeah. To look at. Okay. We can point the finger at the community, but Then we also got to remember that we're part of the community, and we are conditioned in the same way that every other gay man is conditioned in the community. And, you know, but we can rise out of our conditioning. We can change our conditioning. And I think that's my call to action for every single individual in our community. Like, do your work. Like, get into therapy, do courses, hire a coach. Do the things that you need to do in order to give you the skill set that you can have, right? Like communication skills. How can you be in a. In the dating community and not. Or the dating world and not have communication skills or not be brushing up on this stuff? Right? So that's my frustration, I think, and I'm taking responsibility for that because I used to be at that point where I had. I struggled to communicate my feelings and my needs and these sorts of things. But I'm doing the work that's necessary in order to be able to show up with more emotional maturity, which then it exponentially grows, right? Like when you hold space for someone and you're emotionally mature with someone, they're like, oh, okay, that's how you do it. And so we're. We're always watching each other and we're learning from each other and we're modeling to each other in. In the community, really. Right? When somebody ghosts you and treats you like, how more likely are you to go someone and treat them like. Right. Like, and. And versus what if somebody really holds space for you and they show up for you, you're more likely to show up for other people. It's just kind of like how it works.
• 25:00
  Speaker C: So we have to consider the generational aspect. The three of us are all of the same generation, so I think we all have this interesting space of having remembered a time before apps, but now in it. But there are those who are younger than us who only know apps where that is the norm for them. That's what they learn. So they learn from the jump that it's tough world. You gotta have a tough skin. You're gonna get rejected, you're gonna get. There's racism, There's. There's all kinds of. There's transphobia, there's femme phobia. They get that, like, at a time where they don't have the skills to necessarily deal with that. And then for the older generation, who is very much feels invisible on apps, again due to the nature of the community, they have their own experience as well. So I think that it is very much a generational thing too. We. We do. I'M I'm happy that the three of us have that we can kind of remember both sides of it, but I think we just need to make that comment as well. So maybe for those listening, comment on your experience, especially if you're someone who's a generation younger or a generation older than us.
• 25:57
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, good segue because I was just going to say that. Let us know on YouTube in the comment section, what's been your experience with the dating apps? How have they negatively impacted your life? What would you like to see change about them? Like, let's get the conversation happening down below. And let's also get the conversation happening in our connection circles, which we now have two Michael's hosting one first week of the month, I'm hosting one second week of the month. Then we have our sharing circles, which Michael hosts the third week, I host the fourth week. So we've got something happening every week as far as coming and connecting, holding space, listening to others perspectives. Yeah. And you can learn more. Come and join us. Just go to Gaiman's Brotherhood.com, hit the Community tab and you'll see all of our events are listed there. Okay, Michael, how has heavy reliance on dating apps changed our community?
• 26:51
  Speaker C: Why are all these questions, like things I could write an entire book about? Yeah, lots of ways. But I think going off of what we had already said, like exacerbating that transactional nature of sex and how we are now, I want to preface this again. I have lots of prefaces today. There has always been transactional sex between men, gay men. Okay. Before apps, cruising and those spaces were like abundant. There was a time on Church street here in Toronto where like there were specific steps you would stand on or specific intersections you would go to and you would just know that that was a cruising section that was very open. So that has always been there, but now it has come out of the public realm and into the digital realm. So now you're just doing it on an app. And I think the difference again is it still dehumanizes that I still stand behind what I said earlier. It's still dehumanizing. There's transactional sex. And listen, I'm sure a lot of you guys listening out there had some transactional sexting with me on Grindr or other apps. I know this because you messaged me like, oh, hey, you're Michael from gaming, going deeper. I'm like, yeah, that's me. And then we have a nice little chat. So I know you're all out there. Right. So again, similar to What Reno said, I am not going to stand here and, like, be a hypocrite. I do it too, but it's really a matter of knowing. Is that scratching the itch? Do you want the bag of chips right now? Is it. Is it after the bar and you just want a burger? Or do you truly crave something more? And that's. That's the difference? I think so. The big thing I think is queer spaces. So, as I said, by having these apps in the digital world, queer spaces have been disappearing all over the place. I travel all over the world, and I'm a sucker for a gay mecca. If there's a city out there that has a great gay culture and great gay bars, I am there. I'm into it. I'm at the bathhouse, I'm at the bars. I want to. I just want to soak up all of the gay scene in every city I go to. And lo and behold, everywhere I go is the same thing. Just like here in Toronto. The spaces are disappearing. The gay bars are disappearing, the queer spaces are disappearing. The community centers are not, as, you know, well attended as maybe they were in the past. And so these spaces are dying for a lot of different reasons. But I think the apps has a big thing to do with it. The other one people will say is that queer people are now being integrated into mainstream society, so that need for a dedicated space is less. Less of a need. I personally disagree with that, but that's a conversation for another day. So I think that those spaces have disappeared. Going back to what I was saying about generations is when I coach guys who are in their 20s, 30s, early 30s, they tend to have, and this is just anecdotal, I'm no sociologist, they tend to have higher social anxiety. And I'm willing to bet that's just because they didn't have that experience that the three of us and older had to have had. If you want to go meet people, you need to learn to go step into a room full of strangers and how to have small talk and how to shoot the shit and how to, you know, make your way around a room even if you're not good at it. You still had to do it.
• 29:39
  Speaker A: Other.
• 29:40
  Speaker C: Your only other option was staying at home and being a recluse. Whereas now, now I think it's very easy. Like, why would I. And I do this too. Why would I get dressed up, go outside in the cold, walk all the way to the bar, have to go deal with all that, but I can just sit in my pajamas on Netflix and have my app going, like, it's so much easier. But I don't get the benefit of learning how to interact and socialize with other humans. So that, I think, has been a big one. And the last one, I'll say the paradox of choice. Anyone out there who lives in a big city, you think, oh, wow, look at all these people on this grid. You could just scroll forever and ever and ever and ever. Unless you have the unpaid version, which case they limit you. But you can just scroll forever and ever. And there's always someone else. There's always someone hotter, there's always someone better. And so you meet someone on an app, you're chatting, and they're a great guy, and then you're like, that novelty fades, the dopamine fades, and you're off for the next thing. Okay, cool. Who else is there? Who else can I chat with?
• 30:36
  Speaker A: Who.
• 30:36
  Speaker C: Who else's dick pick can I get? Or whatever it is you're doing on there? And so there's always this paradox of there's someone different and someone better out there. And I think, again, that's my. I'm going to own that. I for sure have been guilty of this, and I am sure I have left a lot of great guys on the table for that same reason of, like, okay, cool, who else is out there?
• 30:56
  Speaker A: So well said. Even nothing for me today, Michael.
• 31:00
  Speaker C: There's so much out there.
• 31:01
  Speaker A: This isn't a bad thing. Yeah. Okay, cool. I'm curious, Reno for you?
• 31:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you covered so much of it, Michael, so it might be a bit redundant, but, yeah, I think it's made us both more superficially and less deeply accessible in a lot of ways. Yeah, I think in many ways, like, I've seen the community become increasingly superficial, extractive, transactional, and reactive, which makes sense because that's sort of the nature of apps, in a way. Like, I would say, in a way, most apps foster reactivity. You know, you talked about the dings and the pings and the. It's like going into a casino and expecting consciousness. You know what I mean? Like, it's a little hard to find in there. I'm not saying it's impossible. Right. But you better come prepared. And it's funny, too, because I, you know, something I wrote down in my notes here was, like, I said that, like, if you're spending time scrolling, swiping, and refreshing, and it's always, hey, how are you? What are you into slash looking for? Like, that's literally how drug dealers and their customers interact with Each other. It's so crazy, but I was thinking about it last night in bed. I was like, wait, this is literally how dealers and their customers transact. It's wild, right? There's nothing wrong with it, but I feel like I'm like, okay, is that working for us? Like, is it enough? In some cases, it very well might be, you know, but in other cases, I don't know. I don't know. And also, like, I was thinking about. And this might. This might be for, like, the younger generation, I want to say, right. Like, as if I'm so old or so much older, but, you know, but still, the grocery store. Like, you go to the grocery store. I don't know what it's like these days, but you go to the grocery store on, like, a Saturday or Sunday especially. I remember back home in Winnipeg and Osborne Village, apparently, like, it was one of the best places to meet a guy, right? The grocery store on a Saturday or a Sunday. I'm nostalgic for those experiences in a time like that, you know, like, yeah, I don't know. There's something there. I was walking through Davie Village recently, like, yesterday, and quite a bit recently, and I just noticed how fun it is to be, like, on the street, like, to run into people I know and, hey, how's it going? Give them hugs and make eye contact and that sort of thing. It's just so special. And, you know, I guess I just want to say, like, maybe not lose that. You know, maybe not lose that. Which is a great segue into my other point around the missed opportunities for growth and to connect and relate increasingly in more optimal and more fulfilling ways. Right. So as was stated earlier, there's a development that happens when we communicate human to human and in person, and I think we've become very reliant on technology to connect, and it's an amazing tool. I'm not knocking it. You know, it may seem that way, but I'm really not. I use it all the time. Some of my most rich, deep, meaningful connections are a result of technology and are sustained through technology. So this. I'm not knocking it. Yeah. I think we benefit from spending more time in person. Yeah.
• 34:27
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 34:27
  Speaker A: It's interesting when you're like, what did you say? You said, oh, about the drug dealer.
• 34:31
  Speaker B: Yeah, true.
• 34:32
  Speaker A: It's transactional. That's the dehumanizing aspect. Yeah. I have guys do that with me on certain apps, and it's like, into top, bottom, like, these sorts of things. And it's like. It also, in my opinion, like, there is something wrong with it. I will say that. Like, I'll go out on a limb and like, I will say there's something wrong with that. I think it's dehumanizing each other. I think it's perpetuating. I think a lot of gay men struggle with self worth, so we put ourselves in situations where that's going to be perpetuated, which is going into those places where we won't be valued. And then somebody just treats us like a piece of meat, and it reinforces that we're not worthy of anything more than just being a piece of meat. That's what's wrong with it. Not saying. I'm not saying that from a place of judgment, and I'm not saying that casual sex is wrong. I'm saying the way we treat each other as a transactional and. And like, it's just, you know, a hole, a warm hole to, you know, to like, that sort of thing. I think that there's something wrong with that, truly. And that's just me. That's my own values. It's my own morals. And I think I want something more. I want something more for myself. I want something more for people in the community. I want. I want people to be able to come over and light candles and hold them, and they hold me. Like, that's, I think, what my soul is yearning for from connection. And I just think that the dating apps don't really. They're not conducive for that. They're not directly allowing us to access that. It's indirect, for sure. We can find it there because we can make connection with people and we can nurture and foster deeper connection with those people, for sure. So it's a great meeting point. But, yeah. So I just think that that's changed. It's changed in such a big way in our culture. And, yeah, I guess I just want something more. What I'm asking for.
• 36:09
  Speaker B: Well, you booked the next Red Eye flight to Vancouver, to Candle Land.
• 36:13
  Speaker A: Candle and Cuddle Land. There's nothing better, honestly. Like, I would say probably 70% of the time, I crave more cuddles than I crave sex. And I'm okay with those cuddles turning into sex. But like, I usually my body, my mind, my soul is craving to hold or to be held. Like, that's what my nervous system wants. That's what my body wants. And then when that turns into, you know, mutually turns into sex or sensuality, it's like, even more beautiful because it's like two syncopated calm nervous systems coming together and then having beautiful sex after they've just calmed their nervous systems. It's like, it's so special, right? Whereas I think hookup sex, I think it's like it's more, at least from my perspective, it's more from a, a hyper aroused nervous system. Right. It's not coming from like a calm, chill, relaxed nervous system. So I prefer when my nervous system is synced to the other person and like that type of sex is really, really good. Once again, yeah, if you're watching on YouTube, I want to know from you. Spill the tea in the comments. I want to hear about your experience. If you're listening to us on your podcast, just yeah, pause, think for a moment, like, what's been the impact of dating apps in your world? I'd be curious for you to have that experience that we're having right now to be able to go within and if you are looking to accelerate your personal development journey, you're looking to learn communication, learn emotion regulation skills, learn how to build better relationships, all these sorts of things. You can check out our coaching collection. This is 45 premium personal development coaching videos. We also have our Healing your Shame course, which is six weeks. And we also have our Building Better Relationships course, which is six weeks. If you're interested in accelerating your personal development, you can go to gay mensbrotherhood.com and go to the courses tab in there and you'll see our Coaching collection. You'll see Building Better Relationships. You'll see Healing youg Shame. You can purchase Healing your Shame or Building Better Relationships separately or together. And then you can purchase the Coaching Collection, which encompasses everything, all in one one place. You'll have lifetime access with all of those courses and the Coaching collection. All right, last question. What are some practices you have to maintain a positive relationship with the dating apps? Michael?
• 38:32
  Speaker C: Yeah, great one as well. Because as I said at the beginning, I recently, at the end of last year decided, okay, it's time for my Grinder hiatus, which I take every once in a while. And like everything I stand for, it's all about being conscious and intentional and knowing yourself. Self awareness is the key. So we are not here to tell people what to do, how to use an app and everything. We are here to kind of express our own opinions and what works for us. But here are some things that work for me and having these positive relationships, one know what you want and make sure that that's aligned. Right? If you truly want the bag of chips, which I get, I Love a bag of chips. Go get it. Have a good time. But be onto yourself. Like, know your thoughts and mostly your feelings. Like, your feelings will be the first to tell you that, oh, wait, wait a minute. This is not feeling good for me anymore. Or as Matt had said. I think it was Matt, that balance of am I getting out of this what I'm giving? Right. Always be aware of that. I think that is how you know when to take a hiatus. So something I did before I went on my hiatus as of January 1st was I'm like, okay, I'm going to set limits on this. I put my iPhone allows you with the screen time app to set a limit on certain apps. So I said, okay, let's see what an hour on Grindr would look like. And lo and behold, I was blowing through that hour real quick in my day. And just to notice that, like, what came up for me when the app said, oh, time's up, like, just to see how my brain responded to that was very interesting. And of course you can listen to it or you can override it. A lot of the times I overrode it, which is like, okay, we need to really look at this. So, lo and behold, I have six signs that it's time to take a hiatus from your dating app. I'll share this with you. This is from a post I did a while ago. So I already have it. I already have it ready to go. Number one, it's not fun anymore. So when it feels like a chore and it's not exciting anymore, it's time to get out of there right now.
• 40:29
  Speaker A: That's.
• 40:29
  Speaker C: That's sign number one. Number two is if you're burnt out and this is kind of what happened to me, it felt more like exhausting and it felt sometimes overwhelming with all the constant swiping and messaging. And in the cycles of interaction, it became dehumanizing when I was just responding to respond just to get through my. Just to get through the, you know, and not actually reading the person's profile, listening to what they were saying, formulating a response in my mind and then responding. It was just like, yeah, like very quick kind of one line answers. Which is not the way I want to communicate with people that I'm looking to be in a relationship with or that I'm looking to date. So exhausted and overwhelmed. Three is constant disappointment. So if you are just repeatedly disappointed by your matches and your interactions, it's a good sign to like, okay, time to take a break here. If it's affecting your self Esteem. If you're starting to really question your self worth because of all the rejection, which makes perfect sense if you're getting rejected constantly or people are treating you negatively constantly, after a while it's going to have an impact on your self esteem and your self worth. That's a great time to say, okay, time to put this away. Right. And prioritize focusing on you and that self love and getting your groove back. As I say, the fifth point would be when it's compulsive, which again, guilty. That constant checking. Like if it's the first thing you check in the morning and the last minute and it falls asleep beside you, I mean, that's something to look at, I'll say that. But if you're very preoccupied with it. I remember one time when I was working in my 9 to 5, I would be in a meeting, checking my Grinder, checking to see if the guy replied. And I'm like, I need to be focused on this meeting or at like a family dinner. And I'm like, my family's here interacting with each other. And here I am on Grindr. So these are, these are some of my examples where I felt, okay, this is not how I want to show up. This is not the man I want to be in these scenarios. And that's a question you can ask yourself again, I'm not telling you what to do, but you ask yourself, is this the person I want to be right now? Is this how I want to be interacting in this environment? And start there, right? And then finally, when it's a bit of a distraction. Reno talked about this a lot. And for me, also very guilty. When it's interfering with other things in your life, your work, your hobbies, your social life, like actual friends in your life, then it's maybe time to take a break. I will say in these days that I have not been on Grindr at all. And just one app that I deleted. Not all the dating apps, just this one, which was my, my, my big one. I have been so productive. It feels so good and I just get so much more done and I'm just so more focused. And my dopamine that I would get from the things I'm now getting from checking my to do list off. So I've just kind of switched my dopamine source from Grindr to like getting shit done, which is a nice thing to do. Yeah, that's my list.
• 43:13
  Speaker A: Those were wonderful. Yeah, if you can put those in the show notes, that would be great because I think a lot of people Would love to read that.
• 43:18
  Speaker C: It's on my insta. But I'll post the. I'll post the post on my on the show notes.
• 43:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, sweet.
• 43:23
  Speaker B: Okay, I like that last one too, about dopamine. That's good.
• 43:27
  Speaker C: Well, that's what these apps are designed for, right? They're just designed to just feed us dopamine constantly so we don't leave them like.
• 43:33
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point. Actually, I want to point that out because these apps are designed by psychologists, you know, I'm sure probably neuroscientists and different things. These companies, huge, huge money, billion dollar companies that they put into. You know, how can we get people hooked and using these apps, Instagram, Facebook, all of them have a team of people, which would be like the engagement team on how. And these are filled with professionals who know how to get people hooked on this stuff. Right. Food industry does the same thing. How can we get people hooked on sugar? Do you want to be the lab rat that is constantly being, you know, like, doing. Pushing on the dopamine thing to get your next hit? Right? So I think a break, like you said, can give perspective of. Holy crap. I am so entrenched in using this app for X, Y and Z. Whatever you said.
• 44:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, great segue, because that's like, at the top of my list. I wrote a few down here.
• 44:28
  Speaker A: Perfect.
• 44:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, I delete them all often and engage with them minimally and in phases. So, you know, I may have it for like a month or less and then delete it for months or even years. Be honest. I'm gonna say, like, if not by the end of this week, you know, the end of next week, like, I'm off. Like, I'm deleting them. I'm good. You know, and there may be like a couple of connections, a few that I focus on, but I'm just noticing, like, I'm zonk now. You know, it came in, it was fun. Love it. Moving on. The second one is if I'm on the apps, I notice when I'm on autopilot or when it's no longer fulfilling. And I'm also honest with myself about why I'm on there. And then I can at least own it or stop it, but not bullshit myself. You know, it's like, okay, what am I actually here for? You know, And I think that that takes sort of deep discernment. Like, you really got to connect. Like, what. What do I actually, really, really want here? You know, which leads to my next point, which is the question, what Experience am I truly seeking and is this creating that experience? And I would, I would also say on the other end of things, what experience am I avoiding by engaging with these apps in this moment? Right? So I think those questions are important. Then finally, and I think honestly, most importantly is like, be the glitch in the matrix. You know, create and be what is missing. You know, as Gandhi says, be the change you seek. Right? So if you want a different world, embody it. If you want a different culture, you know, on dating apps, like, you go first, you know, you Reno, you whoever. And I think that looks like just bringing and being the very thing that you say you want. You want more connection. Well, bring connection, bring intimacy, bring honesty, bring authenticity. You know, we gotta go first because if we're all, if nobody's going first, then nobody's going first and we just keep getting what we got. So, you know, that's my invitation. And I think I'll say one more thing, which is again, to that point, create what you want. Like, I don't know, host cuddle parties in your city. Right? Or like create spaces and opportunities for intimate and authentic connection. I mean, we've got like meetups and stuff through our community here. And you know, like, there's, there's stuff out there, but also like, you can create it if you're not satisfied with what you're seeing. Start something new and say, hey, who's into this? Come on down. You know, I love that.
• 47:16
  Speaker A: I love it. I went to cuddle parties in, in Chiang Mai when I lived in, in Thailand. They were great. Yeah, they weren't just for gay men though. They were. And actually I think I was the only gay guy there. Yeah. Which makes it a little bit of a different experience, but it was still neat. Geez, you guys left me scraps. But that's a good thing you got. I love the way you guys articulated all these really beautiful things. I'll, I'll just share briefly, like, you know, I kind of get this visual of like going to the vending machine looking for a 10 course meal. It's like, no, that's where you get the bag of chips. Right? So it's like if you're somebody that is demisexual, you're looking for deeper, more meaningful connection. It's not likely you're gonna find that on Grindr or Scruff.
• 48:01
  Speaker C: Right.
• 48:01
  Speaker A: At least I haven't had that experience. So like, I think it's really important to get clear on what you're looking for in that moment even, because it's not saying you're looking for the same thing all the time, but in that moment, get clear about what you're looking for and look for it in the right places. I think having alignment in the places where you're searching is going to be really important. On having more success in finding what you're looking for. And then I'll add on to that. I will say get good at representing yourself. Dating is about marketing. You have to market yourself accordingly in order to attract what you're, what you're about. Right. Which we're going to be talking about in a coming episode on building a dating app. How to build a good dating profile so you can attract what you're looking for. And then I wrote down what am I actually hungry for? Because when I'm searching and scrolling, there's a hunger. It's not a hunger from my body, it's a hunger from my heart and my soul. My heart and soul are hungry for something and I'm scrolling and I'm searching for this thing and I would say 50% of the time I'm hungry for other and 50% of the time I'm hungry for myself. I need to be with myself, but I don't want to be with myself. My whatever it might be, my inner child is calling for me and I'm scrolling, scrolling, looking for. But nothing anyone can give me is going to give me the thing that I need to, which is to turn towards myself, look within. I think that is so, so key. And I learned that when I started to take breaks from social media. Unfortunately, I can't do that now from social media. I can do that from dating apps. But, but I'm not really compulsive with my dating apps. I'm more compulsive with Instagram and Facebook. They're so entrenched in my business. So I can limit, definitely. But I used to take 30 day breaks and I used to host them on my platforms. Everybody go off social media for 30 days and see what you discover about yourself. Do some journaling. And it's really fascinating how compulsive my hand was in my hand. My hand would go to grab my phone. Right. It's ingrained in even our mortar neurons. Everything is ingrained to go and reach for something when we have a pang of loneliness or a void that we want to fill or a hunger or, you know, we're always grabbing for something. And I think it's, it's almost a spiritual experience to take a break from your phone even, I'll say Not just even the dating apps. And, like, get out into nature and, like, slow down a bit and just, like, really tune in. Right. And I think you might realize that maybe what you're actually looking for is yourself or presence or, you know, the bird sitting on the tree over there chirping away. Like, we might be actually looking for something that is, you know, right in front of us, but we can't see it because our face is buried in our phones.
• 50:43
  Speaker B: So we did not leave you scraps, by the way. Oh, my God.
• 50:47
  Speaker A: Maybe. Maybe it was the opposite. Maybe you set me up for it. You got my juices flowing.
• 50:53
  Speaker B: That was good.
• 50:56
  Speaker A: Any closing comments from either of you?
• 50:59
  Speaker C: Yeah, one quick thing. I forgot to mention this. The best experiences I had with guys I've met on Grindr, and I, as I said, I've met some great peeps, friends, lovers, and other strangers, has happened when we got off the app fairly quickly. If it's someone that's in your city or local to you and you can do that again, don't spend your time there, but rather say, okay, cool. This has been great. I like what I see. Want to meet up, want to go for coffee, want to go for a drink, want to go for a walk, whatever. Like, as I was thinking about the guys that I've met on Grindr, in my social circle and in my past dating, like, I don't really. I know I met them on Grindr, but we did not spend a lot of time there. We quickly jumped off and met in person. So before you take that hiatus, what I would say is if there is someone that you genuinely are interested in, grab their number, go for that date, go for that coffee, and then go off the app.
• 51:45
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I like that.
• 51:47
  Speaker B: That is exactly what I'm about to do. There's a few messages I'm about to send, and then I'm like, delete, delete, goodbye. I'm going back to my peace and qu. It.
• 51:57
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys have inspired me with your sharing to actually do the same thing. Because what. What it's doing is it's keeping me in my comfort zone.
• 52:06
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 52:06
  Speaker A: And I need to get out and meet people. And I honestly know in, like, my soul that that's how I'm going to meet my person.
• 52:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 52:13
  Speaker A: It ain't going to be on an app. Like, it's going to be out and about and we're going to see each other and it's going to be a knowing. And I've known that for a long time. So I'm like, sometimes, even when I'm on the apps, I'm like, what am I doing? Like, this is so stupid. You know what I mean? So it's like, I'm now inspired to definitely change, make a change here. So. And the one takeaway for me from this episode is discernment. It's. Nothing's right, nothing's wrong. It's just about discernment, truly, like, looking at, you know, the right time, right place. Is this good for me? You know, how can I get more out of this experience than maybe I desire? So discernment is. Is key. If you are someone that you find yourself in a compulsion or an addiction with the apps, please do not shame yourself. Like, this is not about, you know, slapping shame onto something, because it might even be shame that's going into the apps and doing it in the first place. Shame meets shame. Trust me, there ain't going to be healing that takes place. So I want you just to get curious about the part of you that is feeling compulsive and wanting. What are you hungry for? And get curious about that part and see. See what's there. Yeah. Curiosity for the win. In this case, curiosity and discernment for the win. But it takes curiosity to be discerning, in my opinion. So start with curiosity. All right, well, thank you guys. Yeah. For coming and sharing. And you guys were real hot today. I loved it. You're bringing all the goods. And thank you to our listener viewer once again for tuning into one of our episodes. Please remember that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you do enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show, using the link in the show notes or by tapping the thanks button on YouTube. And you can also subscribe to the early access option on Apple Podcast Listen ad free and gain early access to all episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community, and we do thank you in advance. Come and share your voice at our sharing circles or our connection circles. Again, go to gaymansbrotherhood.com for everything. Gay Men's Brotherhood. Much love, everybody.