Latest / Shouty Brain / #9: Rebecca Kaplan
Transcript
- Trevor Holland: Hello and welcome to the Shouty Brain Podcast. My name is Trevor Holland. I hope you're well. I'm okay. I'm a bit tired and I'm a bit wired, and my brain isn't really working very well today, and I don't know how this episode is going to go as a result. Also, there is a fly in this room, My cat is on the floor at the moment searching for the fly. He is not the apex predator. He believes himself to be. This week. I am joined by a very special guest by the name of Rebecca Kaplan, who is a stand-up comic hailing from the United States of America. She's a very, very funny comedian who also happens to be autistic, which seems to be the cost of entry to this podcast. She has at least one brain thing going on. So we're going to talk about that as well as her comedy stylings. Very much looking forward to speaking to her. Full disclosure, I haven't recorded the episode yet, so I don't know how it's going to go. So let's just say it went really well. This was a wonderful chat. She's a fantastic guest. And at no point did I become hugely awkward and found it difficult to think of what to say next because Sometimes I'm a little bit out of my depth when I'm speaking to other human beings, especially ones I don't know very well. So I'm assuming none of that's gonna happen and it's gonna be absolutely plain sailing from start to finish. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome Rebecca to Shouty Brain. @RebeccaTKaplan: Hey, thanks for having me. Trevor Holland: You're more than welcome. Thank you for coming. for the listeners out there, I did the most professional thing I've ever done, which is come straight onto this recording with Rebecca and immediately ask her if we could reconvene 10 minutes later so that I could go and have a look at the solar eclipse, which I went and did. and she was very patient with me while I went away and then came back with some potentially permanent eye damage. So thank you very much for your patience. Appreciate it. so I found you I found you on Instagram through your short form content, little clips from your your stand up where you talked a bit about being autistic. So I think what I wanted to find out a bit more about first was was your your kind of your your journey into in into stand up, especially being neurodiverse and and what unique challenges that may have presented. So tell me a little bit about how you how you got into stand up. @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah, I mean I always wanted to like do comedy stuff. And I think that like like as I guess like in college somebody encouraged me to try like an open mic and it's sort of like indescribable like how much of a rush you get performing words instead of just writing them. So yeah, and like also I had like done a bunch of like sketched stuff with like friends and stuff, but like I feel like stand up has like a very alluring aspect to it, which is that you don't need to coordinate schedules with anyone else to to do it. You know, like you can just kind of like get up and and go like hit an open mic or like go do a show or whatever. But and yeah, I was for like neurodiversity in stand-up. I feel like probably like close to half of people who do stand-up are like on somewhere on the spectrum. So it's you know i I'm like I'm not saying there aren't challenges, but it's also like a very like neuro I think people are like more understanding in general of like neurodiversity than in like other Like a Trevor Holland: Yeah. @RebeccaTKaplan: traditional work place or something. Trevor Holland: Why do you think that is? Why do you think so many people in in in not not just necessarily not just in the performing arts, but specifically in in comedy, stand up comedy, why do you think that's the case? Why do what's what do think the the correlation is between being neurodiverse and and and wanting to or or or or or performing comedy? Do you do you think there's something about it that that makes people more predisposed to becoming comedians? @RebeccaTKaplan: I mean I think like a lot of comedy is sort of like takes being an outside observer and commenting on like the ridiculousness of society. And if you're somebody that the ridiculous of society doesn't exactly like come naturally to you, I feel like you're more likely to be like, Why do all of these social conventions exist, you know? Trevor Holland: Mm. You're you're kind of observing the absurdity of of of life and things that things that other people don't necessarily even see as as un unusual and odd. so tell me about that first experience when you did your first open mic then. What did that feel like? @RebeccaTKaplan: yeah, I mean it's just really it it felt really like gratifying to like 'cause you know, I'd been writing comedy stuff and like just doing like e I feel like even doing sketch videos doesn't give you the same immediate sense of gratification as saying words and like watching people laugh in real time at like what you're doing. Trevor Holland: Mm. @RebeccaTKaplan: You know, like there's sort of like a an aspect to live performance that's very you know, like you get just like this like crazy sense of like connection that like even yeah, like even like with acting in like videos, you don't there's still like a layer of like barrier and and yeah, like I obviously like, you know, I was performing for like mostly a group of my friends and they were all like, my God, you're so funny, you should do more of this and then Obviously it's not like so easy to like get actual success, but you know, it felt I mean, you know, it felt encouraging that at least my friends were like, you're so funny. Trevor Holland: Hm. Yeah. I I d I did some I was on the open mic circuit in London, for a couple of years, around twenty thirteen around twenty twelve to twenty fourteen. and that that came because before that I was doing I I was writing I was I was writing blogs and I was presenting local kind of community internet radio. So I was doing bits and pieces like that, but for for years I'd been avoiding the reality that what I really wanted to do was get the feeling of of standing up on stage and and performing comedy and I but I told myself I couldn't do it for such a long time because I was so introverted. but to such an extent that the whole idea of it became so terrifying that I didn't even entertain it. But something switched in me and I thought, I I don't think I'm ever gonna forgive myself if I don't try it. And I was I was unspeakably terrified the first open mic that I did. and it was it was awful because I was the person who was running the open mic night didn't normally have comedians on and didn't know how much time to give me. So @RebeccaTKaplan: Mm. Trevor Holland: gave me fucking twenty minutes for my first ever s my first ever set, which was a horrible mistake. but my god, that feeling that feeling of I know it was an open mic night in the middle of the week at a pub in South London where most people weren't paying much attention. It was really noisy and stuff, but there were a few people paying attention, but the fact that I was just there speaking into a mic, telling my jokes I've never felt so alive. my God. It was fantastic. So I ended up doing it for a couple of years. So that's why I'm particularly, particularly interested in talking to comedians because, you know, I never really got off the ground with it. I did it for a couple of years and and it just became I wasn't passionate enough about it to keep doing it and keep spending the money that it was costing me to do it and and the time it was taking next to my my full time job, so I stopped doing it regrettably. But how long have you been performing now? @RebeccaTKaplan: like about eight years. and yeah, it Trevor Holland: And @RebeccaTKaplan: is like quite a drich for sure. Trevor Holland: Yeah. And and so I can see from from your from your social media and your website you're performing a lot most most most days in fact. and sometimes more than more sometimes more than once. so are you are you touring at the moment? You I know forgive me if I'm a little bit ignorant, but what's what wha What what what you're doing at the moment, 'cause I know you're doing you're doing quite a lot of gigs. @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah, right now I'm I'm trying to like work on re revi refining a s like an hour long special s about sort of like I mean obviously like cliche, like a lot of people are a lot of like comedians are talking about this, but I'm sort of like doing my take on like a stand up hour of like being like I'm autistic and this is like my personal journey with that. and like, you know, like my journey through like dating and like stuff like that. But so I've been trying to tour around the US to try to like get enough stage time to you know, to just make that as good as it can be and then I'm gonna film in December in New York and put it out on YouTube. Trevor Holland: fantastic. That is this how to be normal? @RebeccaTKaplan: Mm. yeah, I'm calling it yeah, sorry. Trevor Holland: So how how do I call you? No, carry on. @RebeccaTKaplan: No, it's okay. I'm calling it like how to act normal. 'cause one of my friends in college kinda s he's like he was like whatever I at some point he was like, Rebecca, like if you when you write your first book, you should call it How to Act Normal 'cause like, you know, 'cause I'm so w weird or whatever. But A sorry, what were you saying? Trevor Holland: I was gonna s I was just gonna ask how how that's going, refining it and and and chiseling away at it and and and honing it. Are you are you enjoy enjoying it? Do you feel like it's it's it's close to to where it needs to be for recording in a few months? @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah, it's sort of like a almost like a puzzle piece now. Cause it's like I have these like individual bits where I'm like, okay, individually these like bits of stand up like kind of like work well. But I'm not you know, I g I guess like when I started the process, I was sort of like, Okay, like let me cram in as many bits that I have that I like as I can. and now I'm sort of like I've like Basically every time I get to do a like a long, you know, thirty to sixty minute set, I go back and I'm like, okay, like which pieces of this are like contradicting each other? Like, you know, like I I have like a lot of 'cause, you know, like obviously like stand-up is like sort of like it's all like loosely inspired by life, but like then with like a huge amount of like fabrication or like you know, maybe I like took a story that happened to a friend and like made it happen to me. Maybe some of it is just like Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. @RebeccaTKaplan: a stray thought that I had. So like there's a lot of things where I like like for example, I'll be like, I have a boyfriend. No, I don't. I have like an ex boyfriend. I I broke up with my boyfriend, you know, so I'm like trying to sort of like take like, you know, just as like one example, I need to like take all of those pieces and sort of like winnow stuff down that's not that's sort of like making the rest of it seem inauthentic. Or or at least trying to figure out how to like bridge those like things so that they seem more authentic or whatever. Trevor Holland: So w would you say your your your style on on a kind of long form show of of up to an hour, are you trying to create kind of an overarching narrative or or is your style more a a series of of anecdotal kind of jokes that are kind of interlinked in a way? what's what's what's the way that you're you're approaching it? @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah, I guess I'm like starting I started with like a bunch of like short, isolated joke and jokes and I'm trying to like as much as I can craft some type of narrative around it. and Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. @RebeccaTKaplan: yeah, I mean I feel like I'm I'm at least like eighty percent of the way there, maybe. but yep. Trevor Holland: That's good. So do you w do do you know when it's when it's actually w when it's gonna be available on on YouTube so that people can look out for it? @RebeccaTKaplan: for sure sometime in twenty twenty seven. I'm hoping I'm planning to edit it myself, so it'll probably like depend how much I personally procrastinate on it. But I th I think I would like to have it up like sometime in like March, let's say. Trevor Holland: nice. And it's been and it's recording in December, you said? And where's that gonna be? @RebeccaTKaplan: if anyone listening lives in New York City or knows somebody in New York City, tell them to go to Empire Stage in Prospect Lefford's Garden in Brooklyn on December tenth. it's like this little Trevor Holland: Okay. Brilliant. @RebeccaTKaplan: warehouse space. Trevor Holland: Nice. So I'm sorry, I'll keep I'll keep interrupting you. @RebeccaTKaplan: No, no, I sorry, I was just saying, Trevor Holland: Okay. So @RebeccaTKaplan: So you can yeah. Trevor Holland: let's talk about let's talk about your autism diagnosis. So so w when was it that you were that you were diagnosed and how did that come about? @RebeccaTKaplan: yeah, it's kind of like ridiculous, but I guess like when like COVID vaccine like came out in in the US, at first they were restricting it to people who like had certain diseases or disabilities. and I, you know, I guess somebody like told me that that having autism or having ADHD like was one of the qualifiers. And up to that point I like had not had an official diagnosis, even though, you know, a significant amount of people in my life, including like my pediatrician, my like teachers in school, pretty much like almost anyone who like met me was like s you know, like, you've got this. you know, but I didn't have like the official diagnosis. So I like I just sort of started looking into like how can I like, you know, like is there an easy way way to to to like make make this official? And yeah, I found I found a a place I was willing to do it for free in exchange for like participating in a study. Trevor Holland: And so you got your diagnosis and you got your vaccine. @RebeccaTKaplan: Yes. Trevor Holland: Nice. I I got I I I was able to I was able to to to beat beat the cue for the vaccine because I was massively fat at the time. So that that that @RebeccaTKaplan: Thanks. Trevor Holland: was that was seen as a mate that made me clinically vulnerable. because I was I didn't know that, but my my my doctor told me you know, you're you're you're so fat that you're clinically vulnerable so you can have the vaccine. So that was great. But no one told the people at the place that that was the case. So these people at at at at the time, ever the only people get the only people getting vaccinated were were really old. so I turned up to this place, this this big fat like thirty eight year old dude. and they w they wouldn't let me they wouldn't let me have the the the the vaccine so and I had to justify it to them. So I'd say but I'm fat. But I'm really fat, guys. And and and I had to show them my phone and a thing from my doctor that says he is fat. He's allowed to have it. And so I had to argue with them. So but look at me guys, can't you see how fat I am? I'm really vulnerable. And so I I eventually had it but I had to argue for it. But that was one of the one of the the the highlights of my life, having to to justify my my vulnerability through my obesity. @RebeccaTKaplan: Is that what made you, like diet you're like, I can't go through that again or Trevor Holland: You would have thought, right? You would have thought that that would have been enough of an indignity for me to say maybe now now that I've had the vaccine, I have no justifiable reason to stay as fat as this, I should probably do something about it. But truth be told, it took me another five years to start losing weight. b mainly because I I I f I genuinely thought I was going to die because I was so fat. you know, I think that's probably the the catalyst for me was realizing that I couldn't really walk properly anymore. That's probably it for me. so yeah, it w it wasn't the vaccine, but the vaccine helped me sorry, being fat helped me get a vaccine. So yeah, I mean it might it might have been a slightly unusual method or path for you getting your diagnosis and the reason for it, but I mean it I guess it It's a happy accident, if you wanna call it that. But you got it and you got your diagnosis. So when you did get it, how did you feel about it? @RebeccaTKaplan: I don't know. I mean, I I think that like the thing with getting like these like diagnoses is it sort of doesn't really change much, you know, unless you're i it's sort of like unless you qualify for there there aren't many social services, at least in America, for people with an autism diagnosis and in like the services that there are you have to be like on the fairly like extreme end of it. you know like more like you know you have to be like genuinely not able to work pretty much. or I mean like there there is one social service that I guess is available to every anyone who just has the diagnosis period, which is if you have like really low assets and you are also a low earner, you can you're eligible for like Medicaid. So that it that part is nice, I guess. But but yeah aside from that like one or like, you know, aside from like pr pretty much like the most that you get out of it is just like self-knowledge. And I I I think that, you know, you can get that self-knowledge without the official diagnosis. Like I think, you know, like the the people who like sort of like TikTok aut autism, like that it irritates me when people just see like one TikTok video and like they're like, that sounds a little bit like me and then they start going around being like, I'm autistic. you know, I I think like you need to do like at least a minimal amount of like research, you know, like read the DSM definition, read like some sources like written by like actual like you know, like experts or whatever. but I think if you have done that like level of like reading and you feel like it applies to you, like I don't think it's like really I I don't think that like you need to have an official diagnosis to you know to sort of like Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. @RebeccaTKaplan: be like, like these tet you know, like 'cause all all it really is is like what you get can like maybe like use like coping techniques or something and it's like, okay, like what's stopping you from like using those coping techniques even if you don't like officially have autism. Trevor Holland: Mm. It's it's an @RebeccaTKaplan: I don't know. Trevor Holland: it's it's it's it's an interesting point of view. and it's ins it is interesting because people feel v vastly differently about about it when they when they get a diagnosis. Some for some people it's a really significant moment for them. and for some people it i it's not so much because it it it doesn't really on the it doesn't really change anything. it seems to be what what you're saying is that it hasn't really made any difference and having the diagnosis apart from being able to to get a COVID vaccine that doesn't really change anything for you. I suppose 'cause you lived you've y you've lived your your whole life, you know, with these with these things that you might find difficult or or s or or a different way of of thinking, a different way of processing and it's just y it's just you and it it's just yeah, so some people @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah. Trevor Holland: though, it it's it's a massive you know, for me, it it was it was quite significant. You know, I'm I'm forty two years of age. I was only diagnosed this year. and I didn't think it was gonna be significant. I I was kind of in in your your school of thought about it, that it wasn't really gonna make any difference. It was just gonna help me to r have a little bit more self knowledge and self awareness. But actually for one reason or another, it it made me feel all sorts of ways for for a while when when it when it came became a reality. so it it didn't really make you feel any differently. It didn't make things make @RebeccaTKaplan: you you know Trevor Holland: sense to you in a @RebeccaTKaplan: One thing that might also like be a difference of like whatever between me and somebody else who like is like I had like like since I was like pretty young everybody was like basically saying like I think you're autistic. Like I mean it at the time called a Asperger's, but like, you know, I I guess it's Trevor Holland: Exactly. @RebeccaTKaplan: sort of like not it was like not exactly like a foreign idea to me or like you know, I guess I already had like gone through the being like l like bef I guess like for me like the diagnosis itself was like just a formality and I had like already like come to my own conclusions about like what the diagnosis like would mean or like whether I you know whether like being officially autistic meant anything to me. Trevor Holland: Mm. @RebeccaTKaplan: if that makes sense. Trevor Holland: Yeah, it does. But did it make you feel any kind of did it make you feel any kind of way when you when you went through your life being told by the people around you, Rebecca's autistic? Did that how w did that affect you in any way? Did it make you feel any kind of way about it? @RebeccaTKaplan: I mean I think that like people just saying it didn't like affect me as much as like the actual like things that were making them say that, if that makes sense. you know, like people saying like I think you know, like you probably have this is like that's just sort of like a those are just like words, but like the actual like interactions with like my peers where I'm like you know, being like cripplingly awkward or like that type of thing. Like, yeah, for sure. That you know, I think that leaves like some type of like psychological scar on people. 'cause, you know, like I it's like you understand enough to know that like you're doing like things wrong socially. And a lot of times I like I I do like kind of intuitively know what the right thing that I should be doing is. I just like can't bring myself to do it in a way that like other people perceive as like natural or organic. so like yeah, for sure like that's I don't know, yeah. Trevor Holland: Did it cause you any any turmoil though? When when you were having these social interactions growing up and as you call it, you were you were doing it wrong. did did that make you question why you were this way and and and did were you that introspective about it? Or did you just kind of roll with it and think, Well, well I'm just a bit different? @RebeccaTKaplan: yeah, I yeah, I was like introspective and you know, I also like for for whatever reason, even though my parents didn't get me like they dec decided not to take me to the thing that would have given me the official diagnosis. I think they didn't want me to like have that. that label or they didn't think it would be helpful to have that label, but they still put me into like some social skills groups. or there was like one thing where like every like there was like one year in like my middle school where they were like, okay, everybody like has to have like a mandatory like after school social or like everybody has to join a club like it's mandatory for like the last period of the day or whatever. And like somebody like approached me at some point and they were like, We are you like to write? Would you like to be in this like poetry writing class? And I was like, sure. and like my friend who was next to me was like, I also like to write poetry. Could I like be in that club too? And like the adults like fit, like, you know, like the adult just looked like they were like, like, you know, like they were like, sure. But like, you know, like you could tell they didn't like want her to like do it. And I was like, there's something weird. Like this is I was like, this is not like a normal like poetry writing club. But and then I like got there and it was like very obvious that it was like more of like a so social thing or like it was I think it was like supposed to be like a grief thing actually maybe. 'cause like I don't know. It was just like I think they I don't know like what exactly like they made them decide I just that I needed to be in this. But it was like very much like a let's talk about our feelings, you know? like I think it was like basically like them trying to be like, we can't like force parents to like put their kids in therapy, but we're gonna like come up with this like way. I mean, yeah, it was like it was basically like a therapy, like a group therapy thing. And like the poetry was just like a thinly veiled but yeah. So like I g I guess like I had you know, like peop people like were in my life, like when I was like a child were trying to like do interventions. I guess. like there was like another time when like everybody was like disturbed by how little eye contact I made. and like my mom basically like Y you know, like she was trying to like do a chore chart where like my brother and I would like get monetary like rewards for doing like you know, like do like let's say do the dishes, you get a little like a a dollar or something. So she like kind of was like, Every time you make eye contact with a stranger for like th three seconds, I'll give you a dime. so like, yeah, I don't know, it's like but yeah, like I I guess, I I guess what I'm trying to say is that like even though I didn't get like the official diagnosis until like well into adulthood, like it's not like I I didn't exactly like come into it having had like no resources Trevor Holland: Yeah. @RebeccaTKaplan: or like no, yeah Trevor Holland: Well, yeah, that that's where you and I differ because it w it didn't even come into the conversation. it may I mean, I've spoken to to my mum about it and I don't think there was any kind of behind closed doors conversation about me when I was a kid saying what's what's up with Trevor. and the the irony is in fact that my mum spent over a decade working with autistic kids for a job. but she she can @RebeccaTKaplan: Really. Trevor Holland: fucking tell. but I think it was a little bit too close to home. Interestingly, this this this weird poetry therapy cult thing that you would that you joined, how old were you when this happened? @RebeccaTKaplan: I must have been like twelve or something. Trevor Holland: And did you say that at the time you even then you kind of realised something was fit fishy about it? And or that it wasn't quite what it appeared to be, that it it was maybe something else. @RebeccaTKaplan: yeah, like the moment that they they that my friend asked to join and they like, you know, they said yes, but like in a way that made it clear that they didn't actually want want her to, I was like, this is not like, you know, like this is like I didn't know like what their ic ulterior motive was, but I was like this is like not a poetry class. but Trevor Holland: How long did you have to do that? @RebeccaTKaplan: I don't know, maybe like three months or something. Trevor Holland: And did it actually and I take it you just kind of went with it, he just kinda you know, accepted it. But but did he did he get anything positive from doing it? @RebeccaTKaplan: No. Trevor Holland: No. Okay. @RebeccaTKaplan: No. I mean, you know, I think like you have to kind of like buy into wanting to do therapy, or like therapeutic interventions. Trevor Holland: Sure. @RebeccaTKaplan: so I mean, yeah, like you can't you can't trick somebody into like doing therapy. Trevor Holland: No, no, but what I actually meant was did you actually do poetry? Did you actually get anything out of that? Or or was w was that just a whole sham? Was it was there nothing to do with with poetry about it? @RebeccaTKaplan: I think that they were like I'm trying to remember. I think they were like, like write let's all write poems about our feelings. I don't know, I Trevor Holland: Yeah. @RebeccaTKaplan: probably I I think I probably like sat and like wrote my own thing for like however long they were, you know. Like I I did really like to write, but I like yeah, I don't think I was like following their prompts. Trevor Holland: That's that's interesting. So do you do you feel any kind of way about the fact that your p your parents didn't want to pursue a diagnosis or is it not really that significant to you at this point? @RebeccaTKaplan: Don't know. I mean, I I think that like I I kind of like get where they're coming from because like like I think my mom basically felt like that I was like sort of like that if I had it I was like on the cusp and that like if I was told like you have this then I was like going to like stop trying to fit into like normal society basically. and like I don't know, it's kind of like interesting because like by the time that I like got the official diagnosis, I had like already like independently stopped trying trying to like fit into normal society. you know, like I I tried like a conventional job and it was like totally miserable and like Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. @RebeccaTKaplan: I don't know. You know, I think that like Like, you know, I think that like parents are like tr sort of like trying to like do the best that they can for like what they think will be best for their children and you know, I can't say like you know, I I I don't yeah. I guess I don't think that like having the diagnosis like would have like really changed much for me. It like the only thing it maybe like could have like helped with is like having some type of like validation that like like you're like this is like hard for you like for a reason. But like, I don't know, I guess like knowing there is a reason for something to be hard and then like not feeling bad about it being hard is like two different unrelated things, you know. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's @RebeccaTKaplan: If that makes sense. Trevor Holland: it does. It does. It's it's it's it's a shame because you know, parents they for the for the most part, they've got the n n nothing but the best of intentions. unfortunately. I'm not speaking necessarily about your about your parents, but a lot of parents or most parents they just want their kids to be normal, right? they want their kids to have a n have have a normal life. And so sometimes the approach to that feeling isn't is not necessarily the correct one because it's well let's try to improve your social skills, let's try to make you more like other people, try and like just try and kick start your personality into becoming more like that. When actually that's not the reality of it, because you you're just not made that way. so acknowledging that is quite important. So so yeah, it it is difficult when when you're having to navigate that without a diagnosis and and when your parents are just doing what parents do, which is just trying to they want you to be happy but they think that happiness means being being like everyone else. it can be difficult. were you Because you talked about your social awkwardness, which I've you know, I've I've got as well, of course. f for me when I was a kid it was that it the assumption was just that I was really shy. Was that kind of the same thing for you or did it go beyond that? @RebeccaTKaplan: yeah, I think like I it I definitely read as like, she's like cripplingly shy. and I I think that's also part of like why my parents didn't like pursue the the diagnosis is like they 'cause like, you know, it's sort of like at home and like with my friends I was like talking completely normally. and I like could make eye contact. you know, like probably not as much as like you know, like let's say a neurotypical person, but like, you know, it was really like like I was really like more struggling with sort of like strangers and like strangers and like casual like you know acquaintances and like whatever or like you know school setting. Like the reason ba basically like There was like a year of like school where I like practically didn't speak at school for like the entire year. and like, you know, like that was like when my teachers were like, you have to like, you know, take her to this like you know, evaluation. And they did they did take me to the evaluation and like the evaluator was like, yeah, your daughter like meets all of the markers of like Asperger's syndrome and you should like Take her to this like expert to get that official. Like, you know, she was like, I I'm not qualified to like diagnose this, but you should like go get this. And then they were like, No. Trevor Holland: Yeah. @RebeccaTKaplan: and yeah, like, I don't know. yeah, I mean, I can't say that I like, yeah, I can't say that they were wrong and like I don't know, I mean, like maybe this is sort of cynical, but like I don't know like what like resources like the school like would have had if I had like had the official diagnosis, you know, 'cause like it's not like I was I wasn't struggling with like classwork. I just wasn't talking. and like, you know, I think I don't know, like yeah, I don't know if like schools are really like qualified. I mean, Yeah, I don't know. Like I guess I don't know like what they would have done. With that, like, yeah. Trevor Holland: I'm assuming probably not much. because of your your you know, your rel your your low support needs, you know, so you you you your your kind of flavour of autism is a a social one and so what @RebeccaTKaplan: Right. Trevor Holland: what that w yeah, what what what would they have done? w you know. @RebeccaTKaplan: Right. And like if if they were gonna do something, like like I feel like they could have done it without like having the official, you know all all they really Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. @RebeccaTKaplan: did is like talk to my parents and like let them know that there was a problem and like I don't know. but yeah, I mean I I mean I did like I I stopped like I I did like eventually stop not talking in class, so like that probably like maybe if it had gone on for like a longer period of time. They they made me talk to a counselor. That's like ba I mean, yeah, like they made they made me like talk to the guidance counselor. But like, you know, what's like a guidance counselor gonna do? Nothing. Trevor Holland: Do you remember why you started talking again? Or what changed? @RebeccaTKaplan: I don't know. I guess I I I guess I like did this like summer camp program over the summer and I sort of like I guess I got some like confidence from like that, of like it was like, you know, like s being in total immersion in like strangers and like they were all like kind of like it was like a a program for like quote unquote gifted and talented like summer camp program, that was like academically focused. So you know, I got to like meet like twenty kids that were like similarly like nerd nerdy and like whatever and were like willing to like talk to me and like and stuff and so yeah, I guess I got like a fair amount of like social practice, like social skills practice over like the summer between like seventh and eighth grade. Trevor Holland: I when I think back to when I was when I was a when I was a kid at at junior school when I was like between the ages of about seven and ten, was probably at the at the a at its peak was when I was just so shy. But like you say, in in s only in certain situations. I was at home with my family, I was probably more of an extrovert than anything. I was bouncing around and dressing up and and you know, put putting on little shows for and doing all sorts of stuff like that because I just loved it like wanted to entertain my family. But then when I was with my friends, I wouldn't exactly be the like the the main loud person among them, but I would be one of them. You know, I wasn't like the leader @RebeccaTKaplan: Right. Trevor Holland: of the leader of the gang or anything, but I was not shy at all. But it's the stranger thing, man. And and it was that that fear of of talking to someone I didn't know and asking them a question. It it made me so fucking insecure. so and and so so self conscious. I think it's because I was self conscious. I was so self aware @RebeccaTKaplan: Were you? Trevor Holland: I was terrified of what would happen if I if I had to speak to this person. And obviously I I d you know, the the old cliche of rehearsing the conversation in your head a a hundred times you know, try and build up the confidence to do it. but just like you think you're gonna do it wrong or you don't know how the interaction's gonna end. And it's just that I don't or even I don't want my voice to be heard by anybody. I don't want to make a sound that comes from my body that is gonna make people look at me and pay attention to me. I don't want anyone to pay attention to me. I don't want anyone to even know that I exist. I remember the the w probably the worst example that I could think of and fuck knows why we had to do this. I went to a Catholic a Catholic school, primary school, and we were doing some kind of thing where we needed to draw a picture. of of an olive tree to do some some shit about the a dove and an olive branch, isn't there? Something. but they didn't know what an olive tree looked like and this was in the early nineties. So they said my teacher said, Trevor, go o go over to this part of the school and go up to this classroom and speak to Mrs. Baker, the art teacher, and ask her what an olive tree looks like. And then come back and tell us so we can draw it. Which in itself is dumb as shit. What do you want me to do? Get second s second hand information. So you're not gonna get her to draw a @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah. Trevor Holland: draw a picture of it, not gonna get her to to sh show me a book where there's a picture of it so I can bring it back. You want me to to go upstairs and speak to somebody, they can tell me what it looks like, and I can bring that information back and tell you what it looks like, and then you're gonna tell us what it looks like and get us to draw it. I didn't even think about how ridiculous that was, but That trip should have taken a minute or two minutes and I don't know why she chose me to do it. But @RebeccaTKaplan: Maybe she was trying to encourage you. Trevor Holland: Well it didn't work @RebeccaTKaplan: Ha ha. Trevor Holland: because it took me an hour. it was up this big b up this big staircase to this classroom and the class that she was teaching were a couple of a couple of years above me as well, so that was terrifying. and I remember standing at the bottom of this staircase, just thinking, I've got to go up these stairs and I've got to ask or I was going around in my head. Hi Mrs. Bager. I I just wanted to know could you tell me what an olive tree looks like, please? And I was thinking how many different ways I can say that, what my cadence needs to be, which syllables I need to emphasize to make it as as convincing you know, I don't want to be desperate. I don't I don't wanna be desperate for for that olive tree information, but I wanna sound like I'm grateful for it as well when I get it. I don't wanna beg for it and I don't wanna be too nonchalant about it, because you might think I've got an attitude. And I remember going up a couple of stairs and then coming back down again and a couple more coming back down again. And actually, you say I say it doesn't it didn't work. It did. But it took me an hour, by which time @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah. Trevor Holland: the I went up and I just knocked on the door and I said, What does an olive tree look like? And and then and then she told me. And then I went back to my classroom with that information. The the fucking class had finished. And I was in I was then in trouble because I was I was accused of having kind of what's how do you say it? I say bunked off in the UK. Yeah, right, right. @RebeccaTKaplan: Playing hooky or whatever. Yep. Trevor Holland: I was accused of doing that, to skipping class. And actually I was just pacing around, pissing myself because I didn't know how to have this conversation. But we got the information. We know what an olive tree looked like, but they they just decided to draw a different kind of tree because I hadn't come back. They didn't come looking for me though. They just sent me on my way and then just left me. And then I just came back an hour later with my tail between my legs, really proud of myself. And then I was like, What the fuck where the fuck are you being? But yeah, it was horrible. And I I it's it was that kind of thing. I remember like my my parents sent me to a sent me to a shop to buy stamps. And I remember just pacing around the shop for half an hour just thinking, Well, how do I approach this? 'Cause I just need to go I just need to go up to the the go up to the person and say I'd like six stamps please and then give them the money and then they give me the stamps and then I leave. But I couldn't I I I built it up in my head so much I ended up just not doing it at all. I just couldn't do it. Which I it's it's wild to me to think that I was that shy. But it wasn't shyness though. Maybe it was a bit, but it was just because I didn't know how to how to do these things and and be confident enough to know that I was gonna do them correctly. And now I've gone the other way. So s so I'm I wouldn't say that I'm extra I'm an extrovert. I would still say pretty much I'm in I'm introverted, especially in a big group. But people that don't know me very well would never think for a second that I have any kind of introvert introvert ways about me because I just I don't give a shit, I think, now. and if I'm quiet, I don't think like people are gonna judge me for being quiet. I just I think what one of the things that the diagnosis has done for me is made me be able to be a little bit less apologetic about the way that I am. Because I can just be the way I am and be like, fuck it. I I I just don't say much sometimes, you know, deal with that. I'm not gonna try to be something I'm not. But anyway, yeah. So yeah, I was shy as shit as well. but how did that manifest when when when you started doing comedy, you know, d Did that side of you come come into it, you know, when when you sh when you struggle in social settings? Did that p p play a part in how you're able to perform? @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah, I mean I think like one thing like one aspect of like why I like stuck with like stand up for a while like okay p everybody was like telling me like obviously like I worked through it a bit more from like when I was like in like seventh grade and like literally like wouldn't talk to like strangers or to my teachers or whatever. but I was still like pretty cripplingly shy, you know, like Or or like, you know, like maybe it's not exactly shyness, but you know, like what you were saying, like pretty like cripplingly like afraid of like you know, like hearing my own voice, like inter you know, like just some type of like anxiety or like inability to like, you know, break through through like not wanting to do that. and so like everybody like kept telling me to like try Toastmasters. I don't know if you have that in the UK. Trevor Holland: What's @RebeccaTKaplan: It's basic Trevor Holland: What is it? Sorry. @RebeccaTKaplan: i it it's it's sort of like groups where you go and it's supposed to like help you with like s public speaking. Trevor Holland: Okay. @RebeccaTKaplan: and it it costs like, I don't know, like maybe like a hundred dollars a session or something like that. And I I kind of like like I tried I tried my first open mic because my friends were like, you're so funny, you should do this. And I I sort of like realized that open mics were like a very like low cost ratchet way of like doing Toastmasters. so Trevor Holland: Mm. @RebeccaTKaplan: I kind of like used it to like practice like talking in front of like people. and like, you know, I guess like just there's something about like just forcing yourself to do something like over and over again where like it just makes it easier over time. So like yeah like I guess I was sort of like even if I don't succeed in like stand up, like at least getting like this practice, like talking out loud. And like yeah, I think that definitely helped a lot. And then also like I guess like Yeah, I think like one of like the the things with like being shy like being so like cr cripplingly like shy or like bad at public speaking, like I guess I sort of like from like a stand-up perspective, like I started as like a really good writer, but then it took like a long time for like my performance like skills to like match up to like where my joke writing was. which I think like like everybody has sort a sort of like natural ability that they come in with like performance skills and then like writing skills. And I think like I I I think this is like I find this unfair, but like I get it. Like if you start as like a strong performer and like a bad writer People tend to be more impressed by you because like there's something about like it's easier to like understand like that somebody is like good at stand up if they're like holding a microphone and like talking confidently, even if like what they're saying is like not very funny, versus like somebody like saying funny things but you can like hardly even like understand what they're saying 'cause they're like mumbling so badly and talking so quietly. so like yeah, I guess I've been like maybe for the past like five years or something, like really making a concentrated effort to like work on performing better. Trevor Holland: And wa watching some of your some of your bits and pieces. I I really enjoy your your your your delivery. now @RebeccaTKaplan: Things. Trevor Holland: do you feel do you feel that you're being just being being the way you are or amplifying it even? on stage in terms of the the slight the slightly the slightly awkward d way that you deliver material, which I think is to its to its benefit. Is is that, would you say, an amplification of how of how you are, or is that just you being you? @RebeccaTKaplan: yeah, I think that's like for sure part of like I I think that's like a part a part of like who I am. like I am sort of I am like a sort of like naturally awkward and shy person. and like if if anything I've like worked to very like hard to like get it to like be as like non awkward as like you know, as it is. I like there's like a video on my YouTube page of like me doing stand up in like twenty seventeen or no, sorry, twenty nineteen. And yeah, like I it's r it's really like you can like see sort of like the stark difference of like and like at that point I had like already been doing stand up for like a while, you know. So like like I don't know. I mean like I guess like I that might be like a a struggle that's like unique to like autism is like I wa you know, like I guess like peop a lot of people that try stand up are like they're struggling with like getting over like their fear of like you know like their fear like their performance anxiety and like whatever and like I was like I was like literally like just struggling to like say words fluidly like out loud, you know. Trevor Holland: Yeah. @RebeccaTKaplan: So yeah, I don't know. Trevor Holland: No, I I really I really enjoy it. I I I really like the way the way you speak when you're when you're performing. I think maybe part of it is is the the way you talk about things like like dating and and and sex and stuff like that and and I think maybe it's just the way you you deliver it in such a in s in such a deadpan way is is just r really enjoyable for me. I just really I just really, really like listening to you talk about stuff like that. you're welcome. okay so before we go, so I I was curious to know, so you're are you a are you a full time comedian at this point? or is this something that you're doing alongside something that keeps the lights on in your house? @RebeccaTKaplan: yeah, I have a data. Trevor Holland: Okay. Do you mind telling me what it is, or is that s something that's just @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah, yeah, sure. I I edit like a section of a website and I do podcast editing. Trevor Holland: okay. So y you talked a little bit earlier on about how you you you you tried to do normie stuff. So you tried to get a a traditional job and it was horrible. So what was what was that experience like of of of trying to kind of be in be in the world of being a kind of ju kind of gainfully employed person? @RebeccaTKaplan: I think that like I I just find like in person office work like intolerable. I'm not saying that like you know like neurotypical people enjoy it either, but like, Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. @RebeccaTKaplan: you know, I I just like it's just like you feel like you're under like observation like all day. And yeah, like it's just like in Yeah, it's just like kind of intolerable. and then like I don't know, like people were just like trying to have like conversations with me about like the most like banal things and I'm just Trevor Holland: Yeah. @RebeccaTKaplan: like, I I hate you, I hate being here. there was like one I remember like one conversation with like the secretary of like the place I was working for. she like I don't know like what ha she like brushed against like the shirt I was wearing and she was like, that like fabric feels really nice and I said like, thanks. I shop by texture. and it she just like look like, you know, she like she was like, wow, I wish I could buy soft things too like that. And I was I just like I didn't I didn't say this 'cause I didn't want to be rude, but I was just like, you can like nothing nothing is forcing you to wear like fabrics you don't like. But yeah, it was I was just like having that type of conversation like over and over again and I was just like I I can't be here and like I don't know. And also I really like to work in like as much silence as I can. probably partially because of like my concurrent like ADHD. But like yeah, I just like I yeah, I I find offices like insanely distracting and like I don't know. Trevor Holland: It's mad. @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah. Trevor Holland: It's it's and you know I'll do it for as long as I can or as long as I need to until I can make a living doing things that I actually want to do. And fucking hell, it's a nightmare because it's a performance. What what started off when I was younger as as the kind of timid shyness and wishing that I could do some of the things that other people could do. It's completely changed now to to having no interest in doing those things whatsoever and and and having no @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah. Trevor Holland: no problem saying I don't wanna do it. But it's it's the bullshit meter. valve or whatever you want to call it, my reflex, my bullshit reflex. @RebeccaTKaplan: One hundred percent. Trevor Holland: It's just like fucking hell, why are we here? Why are we doing this? Every single meeting that I go to I think is a @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah. Trevor Holland: waste of time. This is a fucking email. Just send me the email. I don't wanna sit here @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah. Trevor Holland: for three hours and and talk about it. And every conversation is just so pointless. It's the pleasantries. It's this fucking water cooler moments, you know. It's the why do we why why are you pretending that you care about any of this stuff? Or how are you able to pretend that you care about any of this stuff? Or even worse, do you actually care about this stuff? Because none of none of those eventualities are positive. But do you actually like doing this shit? You actually or or are they just like they've given up on on on themselves so much that they're just I'm just gonna play along with it now because I hate myself so much and I don't I don't wanna try anything different. It's but I it's it's horrible. @RebeccaTKaplan: I I also like I I've like have a good amount of like privilege that like I did I was able to like move back in with my parents and stuff, and like quit that job to like look for something that was like more enjoyable. And like yeah, I know there are probably I'm I know there are many people who like do have to like suck it up and like do that stuff. But like yeah. It's it's hard. Trevor Holland: But what sort of life is that though? It's it's just g g giving up on yourself entirely just to help someone else get rich, or richer. while you're just having meetings with with with pictures of of fucking charts and graphs and deliverables and the fucking you know, the office language as well, just the the the vernacular that people use in in a corporate environment as well. It's a completely different language to language that you would use outside of work. You would never say some of the shit that you say in the office in the meeting. But it's like, God, it everything just makes me uncomfortable. Everything makes me cringe. it's really good that you that you have that you that you've managed to get yourself into the position where where you are y you know you you you're doing things for yourself and and of the people that I I've spoken to, if I remember rightly, I think about ninety percent of the of the people I've spoken to are self employed. they don't have traditional jobs and they they've had them or they've tried to have them but they just haven't done very well in that environment and I I'm the same. I I wish I was self employed and I know l most people probably feel that way. but I'm still doing it. I'm still I'm still doing a nine to five and I I don't know I don't know how sometimes. But it it it is definitely you you need to create an environment for yourself in which you can if not flourish and at least survive. And being on being on someone else's timeline and someone else's schedule, someone else's way of doing things in in a in a really brightly lit building where everyone's as loud @RebeccaTKaplan: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and stinks and everyone's fucking everyone else. It's just no, no thanks. @RebeccaTKaplan: Right. And with the timeline thing like you just mentioned, I think part of it is like I feel like I can't I per I'm su me I don't wanna say like that I'm the only one like that whatever, but like I I need like a f I can only work for like a couple of focused hours a day. and Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. @RebeccaTKaplan: like, you know, like having being forced to like try to act like I'm focusing for eight hours a day, like I don't know, just like really takes it out of me. And I feel like most office jobs actually are designed that like there are really only two or three hours of like work in the day. And then it's like what are you supposed to do for the rest of the day? Like, you know, like I don't know, like Yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I I I can only I can only really keep my shit together for a couple of hours at a time. but luckily I'm able to do a lot in that time. because because we're smart, right? So we can we can be incredibly productive in that in th in those two hours and probably on the balance of it do as much work as everyone else is doing in a whole day anyway. but yeah, it's it's not It's not conducive to people like us, that kind of environment certainly. But that's that's another thing quickly that that made me feel better once I was diagnosed as well, because I could stop thinking that I'm just a loser. Because there was there there were plenty of times where I thought I mean I've I've had the same job now for about eight years, which was unheard of previously, before I was diagnosed with ADHD and started medication on that about fifteen years ago. But Yeah, I I would have a job for a short period of time and I'd either quit or be fired. I just couldn't I couldn't do it. And I just thought I'm obviously a fucking waste of waste of space then because everyone else manages to have a job and keep a job. I can't do it. So I must it's not I didn't think, I'm wired up differently so I d I don't that kind of environment just doesn't fit well with @RebeccaTKaplan: Right. Trevor Holland: the way that my brain works. It was just I'm lesser for it and and I I should be able to do this and I felt like a piece of shit for it. but so th th the diagnosis has helped me with that because now I no longer feel like that. I'm like, well I mean, I pat myself on the back that I've got the same job for eight years in spite of everything conspiring against me being able to do it. but but yeah. we'll wrap it up there. because I'm very, very hot and there are flies in the room that are @RebeccaTKaplan: Okay. Trevor Holland: making me wanna hurt stuff. but it's been really fun talking to you, Rebecca. I really enjoyed it. thank you for taking the time out to to speak to me. you're performing tonight, aren't you? @RebeccaTKaplan: Yes. Trevor Holland: well good luck with that. Enjoy yourself. @RebeccaTKaplan: Thank you. Trevor Holland: I will keep a close eye on I haven't don't think I've subscribed to your YouTube yet, but I definitely will. I look forward to seeing your special when it comes out in a few months' time. and yeah, been been really good to talk to you and I'll catch up with you again soon I'm sure. Welcome back. That was Rebecca Kaplan. Hope you enjoyed it. Full disclosure, I still haven't recorded it at the time of recording this outro. I'm really doing some jingery pokery with the space-time continuum this week. but I was just my god, I'm sorry. My brain is just elsewhere entirely. I would very much recommend that you go to Rebecca's website to see the latest from her in terms of where she's going to be performing. And lots of other bits and pieces, as well as links to her Instagram, YouTube, and so on. So you can go to rebecca tkaplan.com for that information. Now, if you enjoyed this podcast, which I'm assuming you did, I would very much appreciate it if you were to leave a review, leave a comment on whatever format of listening slash watching you enjoy this particular podcast. I will remind you again because I do it every week. This podcast is recorded in both audio and video forms. If you are listening to the audio only version, then please do go to my YouTube channel to see the video version. If you are watching the video version and you want to have a change of pace, listen to the audio only version by going to any podcast platform and searching for Shouty Brain. I would very much appreciate it if you would interact via either of those channels by leaving reviews, comments. interacting with me, engaging with me, you can also contact me via my website at shoutybrain.com if you so wish. I'd very much like to hear from you. Especially if you've got advi especially if you've got ideas for future guests who you think I should have on the show. I'd very much welcome that to take a little bit of the work away from me. but yeah look at my stuff man because I it's pretty good, you know. but yeah, get in touch. Hope you enjoyed. Hope you enjoy the rest of your day. And once again, full disclosure, the day I'm recording this, which is the day before it comes out, we are enjoying a an almost full solar eclipse, which is going to be happening in about half an hour's time. I've got a big black towel hanging on my window to stop the sun from coming in, so I can't see. So it's basically a solar eclipse anyway. So That's just a little bit of exil auxiliary information for those of you who decided to stay until the end. I was very grateful. I'm sure it was worth it. Wasn't it worth it? yeah, it was. Anyway, I'm gonna go and lay down in a dark room and put like calm myself down a little bit because I feel a crash coming. Have fun. Love you.