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288: 5 Mindset Missteps in Your Podcast Pitching and What You Need to Know · Imperfect Marketing

• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kendra Korman.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: If you're a coach, consultant or marketer, you know marketing is far from a perfect science, and that's why this show is called Imperfect Marketing.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Join me and my guests as we explore how to grow your business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned along the way.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, kendra Korman, and today I am joined by Christina Lenkowski, and I was working on practicing that one.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I'm super excited to have you here and joining me.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about podcasting and podcast pitching specifically, so I'm really excited to hear what she has to tell us.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: So welcome, christina, and how did you get into pitching podcasts?
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you, kendra.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: I'm so excited to be here, particularly in front of my fellow kind of marketing nerds, because that is the world that I have been in for almost 20 years at this point.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: In the marketing and PR world.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time at agencies, working in-house and agencies for all kinds of different organizations, and really what led me here is I decided after I had my daughter that I was going to start a course.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: I was going to have a course on tourism PR.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I was obviously going to make a million dollars in my sleep, like I drank all the Kool-Aid.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: It was going to be easy peasy, like, let me do this, let me just make this course really quick and then basically retire Right, that was like my.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: That was like my plan at this time.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: This was like 2017, 2018.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: The way that they were teaching to promote like your course was to essentially put a bunch of money into ads, do a live webinar and then sell via email and obviously make a million dollars in your sleep, like I said.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: And so when I went to go launch my course the first time, I did exactly those steps.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Like I was like, okay, this is what they're saying, this is what I'm going to do, and so I want to be clear on this.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: I was teaching a course on publicity and I did no publicity.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is where.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Where I was at, I was like, okay, this is what I'm going to do.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: So, in a shock, to no one except for me, this did not go well and I only ended up selling you know a couple, a couple of courses, whatever, during that and I was like, okay, this is not, this is not working.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I remember my husband was like what are we doing here?
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: And I was like I'll figure it out.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Like don't, don't worry about it.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: And so what I did after that is, I tapped back into my intuition and I was like you're teaching a course on publicity, you know how to do publicity.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: You've been doing it at that point for well over a decade, so let's just start sending out some pitches.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: And at that point, podcasts were a thing, but they weren't the thing that they are today.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Right, they weren't necessarily like such a part of our everyday lives and what everybody was listening to, et cetera, but I started to pitch myself onto podcasts that were full of my ideal audience and the difference in my business was just night and day.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: People were really hearing me on a podcast, they were reaching out to me, they were purchasing my course, they were asking me to come speak at something, et cetera.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: And so when COVID hit, I had already kind of had an inkling to change what I was doing a bit.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: And that just kind of pushed me full force, because it was so easy to do podcasts from your home that I started teaching people how to guest on or pitch themselves on podcasts.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Guest on podcasts.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: But by the end of that year I had so many people that were like, yeah, could you just do it, that I started pitching people on the podcast and grew it to the agency that we have today.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: That is so cool.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing your journey too, because I think it's yeah, you know it's we're not making money in our sleep, right?
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, it all takes work, it all takes effort.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, it can to an extent.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: You could maybe, you know, get a sale while you're asleep, but you did work that led up to that and there's a lot of work involved, and I love that you covered that, because I think, you know, yeah, we all sometimes like to drink the Kool-Aid and it's not always what's real for us.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: So thank you, and it's not our fault.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: We're marketed.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: We're marketed to, you know.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's that is what it is, and you know, it's just kind of figuring out what is going to work for you, what isn't going to work for you.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: And for me, podcasts ended up being a really great way and they continue to be a really great way to get my name out there and sell my service and for people to you know, know who I am, and what I do.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: I love podcasting for that reason, because it really creates a connection, right, they see you, they hear you, they.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: They feel like they get to know you more than anything else, right, and I think that that's that's part of why it's so powerful.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: I love it when I hear from my guests and they're like hey, kendra, by the way, someone contacted me off of it, or I got two phone calls after your episode went live, and I'm like, yay, that means that I'm serving my audience too, right, that means that those who are listening and watching are relating to what we're talking about, and I think that that's so important.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about the mistakes that people make when pitching themselves to get on a podcast, since that's what you've built your business on.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: What are some of those mistakes?
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: I think that really the biggest thing, kendra, that I like to bring up is there are a lot of people that are listening to us right now and they are like I'm never doing that.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Like they are very in their head about like yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I see how podcasts could be really good for me to go on, but I'm never going to do that.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Right, I'm not outgoing, I'm not whatever.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: This is not something that I'm ever going to do, and I really want you to shift that mindset.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: First of all, most of our clients are introverts.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So if you are an introvert and you're hearing this, I want you to just completely shift it, because really, all you're having is a one-on-one conversation, okay.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: So I just want you to think about that.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: Like Kendra and I are just talking, there's not a big audience in front of us, there's not a lot of other people there, not anything like that.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: We are just having a one-on-one conversation.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: But the other thing I want you to think about is what's the worst thing that can happen?
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, and I want you to really think about that.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: And for most people, the things that are going to come to their mind are, you know, something along the lines of I mess up what I'm saying.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, Kendra has just had to deal with me having technical issues for the past multiple minutes.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is fine, because this can all be edited.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, 99% of the podcasts that you do are not going to be live, and if it's not, I would say if you're doing your first podcast, don't have it be a live one.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, maybe pick another one.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: You can do that one a little bit later on.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, but for the most part, most podcasts are not live.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: All right, a host is not out to get you.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Ok, they are trying to put out the absolute best content that they possibly can, and so what I mean by that is I just had to say to Kendra hey, do you mind asking me that that question again, so that I can start from the top and the beginning and give an answer?
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: This is perfectly fine to do during an interview.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: So if you're really, really stressed about messing something up, please know I accidentally swear, I accidentally combine words, I accidentally do these things all the time, and sometimes we leave them in because that's me, that's real life, that's what happens.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: But also sometimes I might say, hey, do you mind editing that out?
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: I just feel like I didn't answer that the best that I could, if I could start again, et cetera.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Not, I just feel like I didn't answer that.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: The best that I could, if I could start again, et cetera, not a problem, okay.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: So I want you to get that, I want you to get that out of your head.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Really, any kind of variation of I mess up what I'm saying, okay.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Then there's also people that are going to say something to the effect of well, what if people are listening to me and then they think she doesn't know what she's talking about, or he doesn't know what he's talking about, right, like, what an idiot, dead of death.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: And I am here to tell you that most people are thinking about themselves most of the time.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, they are not thinking about you.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean they're not listening to you.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I wanna be very clear on that.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: But what it means is, when they're listening to you, they are more so thinking how can I apply this to me?
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: To me, okay.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: So I think that that's a really important thing for you to remember is, people are not again, I don't listen to a podcast and just go.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: What a idiot, okay, like that is.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: I can honestly say I don't think I've ever thought that when hearing someone on a podcast and Kendra's shaking her head, she agrees, right, we are really thinking about how can I apply this in my life, in my business, right, et cetera, going forward.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: So I think that's important, but ultimately, what I want you to think about is I truly, truly believe this the worst thing that can happen, the worst thing is you do not put yourself out there because your business will not grow.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: I talk to people time and time again just keep wondering why their business isn't growing, why their business isn't growing and yet they are not getting visible in front of new audiences on a regular basis.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, and podcasts are a great easy way to be doing that.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: So if you're kind of stuck in that place where you're just like I'm not seeing my business grow and yet you really take a good hard look at yourself and are like I'm also never getting in front of new audiences because I'm going to be real to you Social media doesn't count, okay, and I can talk about that, I can get more in depth on that, but you need to really be strongly then considering guesting on other people's podcasts is a really, really great way to be getting out there.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: I mess up all the time All the time.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Nine times out of ten.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: I leave it in Roll with it.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Yep, but I love the people are thinking about themselves.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't I've disagreed with people on podcasts that I've listened to 100%.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, I've had some different reactions, but I've never thought, oh my gosh, they're a total idiot Ever 100%, 100% I don't think ever, and I think that's an important piece there is that that does not mean I've agreed 100% with every person I hear in a podcast.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: That's a really, really good point.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: But it also doesn't mean that I then think that that's not a smart thought, right?
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Or that they must not know what they're talking about, because I disagree with one thing.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: You know different from them, ok, so I love that you bring up that point of like.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that people are going to necessarily disagree with you but they're not sitting there thinking they obviously don't know what they're talking about.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Right now and again we've been having technical issues.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I actually think that that's a great example.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: I actually think that that's a great example.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: It happens.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: I was guesting on a podcast.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: My internet went out and she's like hey, let's just reschedule Called Comcast.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: I had them come out.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: They found out that it was a faulty wire that went bad in the last three to five years I have no idea when or where, like stuff, life happens.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Life happens 100%.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, and that's okay.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Most hosts are going to.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Life happens right.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Life happens 100%.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, and that's okay.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm mm-hmm.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Most hosts are gonna be very understanding.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Most hosts are gonna be very understanding of that and also understand that life happens, right.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: You know we've had clients that are literally like writing us from a hurricane and they're like I'm trying, but I don't think I'm gonna be able to get on today.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, obviously you know what I mean.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: And like we reach out to our host and they're like, yeah, of course we can reschedule, right, like it's it's okay.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: You know, life does happen.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Things come up.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I was telling Kendra before we hopped on.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I've been dealing with a lot of vertigo in the past month to two months and I've had to reschedule a couple of podcast appearances and that sucks.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do that.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I don't like doing that.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: But I also know I'm not going to bring the best amount of value or the best like version of myself to that if I'm not feeling great, right, I think that the best you can do is the best you can do, right, but it's absolutely getting out there and I also want to mention that, no matter what, you are going to sweat and stumble your way through your first couple of podcast interviews Okay.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: So like, just be prepared for that.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: You know, when we work with our clients, we get them booked on all these shows and they'll always even if they've been on podcasts before.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: There's always like some nerves for those first ones, but by the time you've done a couple, you're going to feel a lot more comfortable.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: And by the time you've done 10, 15, you know 20, you're going to be an old pro at it.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: It's just like anything.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: It's a muscle.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Exercising it as much as possible, you're going to get stronger and better at it.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: And I agree, I don't know any podcaster that would actually encourage you to listen to their early episodes.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Don't listen to mine.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, now I'm going to.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: But it was stiff.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a conversation, it was a list of questions.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: It was thank God for the patience of my guests because, yeah, it was not the best it could have been, but if I didn't do that I wouldn't be where I'm at now and I think it's a lot more conversational and a lot better, and if you're listening, hopefully you agree too, and that's why you're listening.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: So all right.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: So you mentioned social media and getting in front of other audiences and how social media doesn't count.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit more about that.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, and what I mean by that is I'm not anti-social media.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, like, I want to be very, very clear on that.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: I have a social media presence, et cetera.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: But one thing that I think people mistake a lot is thinking that social media is going to get them in front of new audiences regularly.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Ok, I will talk to people a lot and they'll be like, no, I just need to post more.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: And I'm like you don't, you actually don't need to do that, Right?
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: And but in their mind it's been so ground into them because social media is such a part of our life Like, well, if I just post more, more people are going to see it.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: No, that's not necessarily how that works.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: And, kendra, I don't know if you have some insight into that too, or hearing from other people also when they say that, but occasionally and I'm not here to say that you'll never get in front of new people on social media Again, don't get me wrong, but that cannot be your main strategy for getting in front of new people regularly.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: It is a great way to build your brand, build your equity and build your following that you already have.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: But when it comes to new audiences, again, it's gonna happen, but it's not.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: It shouldn't be the main thing.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Well, and sometimes posting more will get you in front of less people even Well, and sometimes posting more will get you in front of less people even inside your existing network.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: So it depends on the algorithm.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: And you know social media is rented land Guesting on other people's podcasts they own that right.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: They're putting it on their socials, which is going to get you in front of other audience, right.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: They're putting you on, potentially, their website.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: If they're hosting it on their website, they've got some sort of website.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: It can be coming up in search.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: They've got a loyal audience.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Even if it's like 5, 10, 15, 20 people a week, that's another handful of people that are listening to like 15, 20, 30 quality minutes of conversation with you.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Yep, where do you get that?
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: You hit the nail on the head and I think an important thing that I talk about a lot with people this is something I personally have in my business and I recommend is having a visibility KPI, so having a certain thing you track in your business which is how often you are getting in front of new audiences.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, Now, this doesn't have to be just podcasts, Like I wanna be clear on that podcast guesting.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: That can also mean attending an event, right, and that could be like for me.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I live in Boise, Idaho, like I'm pretty much always going out of town to attend an event, right, so that could be that.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: But that could also be a local networking event, right, If that's something that you have available to you.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: That could be even just having a one-on-one coffee date or a small group coffee date with some people that you're going to be talking about your business with.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Right, that can be doing a blog post on someone else's platform, right, Doing, potentially doing like, let's say, a LinkedIn Live again, where someone else is kind of the host and you are getting out there.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: But what are those ways that you are regularly getting in front of new audiences and not the things that, to your point, you own right, Not the things that you are owning and the audiences that you already have, but these new places that you're showing up in front of.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: So, yes, agreed, a hundred percent.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Like there's so many different ways to do this.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: If this isn't the right fit for you, there's other options and you can still use these lessons that you're talking about in these points.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: They apply to these other ones too, have a person my, my KPI is one time a week on average.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: On average, so, meaning there are some weeks when I'm not, I'm not getting in front of anybody, right.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: But then there's some weeks where I'm on two or three different opportunities or I, you know, attend a big event and I attend multiple things, right.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: But this is something that I tracked the whole of 2024.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I'm really going to put my money where my mouth is.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: I'm going to track this.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: I'm going to see what happens by me hitting this visibility KPI.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Personally, I also set a goal of attending 12 out-of-town events as well.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: So, an average of one a month, understanding that some months there's going to be more than others, right, et cetera.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: But really, looking at what this does to my business, what kind of shifts because of it and it was really fascinating.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: And for you, one time a week might seem like a lot Like.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: You might be like, oh, I don't know about that, although I would make the argument if you were at the beginning of your business.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: You have the time to actually be setting that type of a goal.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: But let's say, I'm gonna give you the most is once every other week.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's the most I'm going to give you to have on average for that visibility KPI, and I want you to think about that.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: At the end of a year, let's say, you will have had 26 different opportunities, that you have gotten in front of new audiences and again that could be a mixture of different things and I can pretty much guarantee if you've been getting in front of the right audiences and talking to the right people, your business is going to look different than it did at the beginning of that year.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, I and I love that I set a goal of guesting on 22 podcasts this year 24, 24, I think, or maybe 25.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: I can't even I should write.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: I should remember, because I just looked at it this morning and I've done seven so far and we're recording this in early March.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: So I am right on task or right on schedule.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: You're getting there.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: You're getting there.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And that's actually the number we, when we have annual clients that's the number we're getting them on is 24.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: So, like that average of two a month is great.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: And then you know, we love them to, of course, be doing more than that, but what they know that they've at least got that taken care of for the year where, like hey, I'm already hitting this once every other week, and now there's other opportunities, these ones that are on top of it is just, you know, it's gravy right, it's cherry on top for you to be able to do even more than that.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again I set a goal because I had not set a goal before and I was just sort of randomly, when they came, when the opportunities presented themselves, doing it.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Now it's a focused effort.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: So every month I reach out to people to see if they would like to have me on their podcast.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: So what other missteps are people making when pitching?
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: I think that a big misstep people are making when pitching is, quite frankly we call it in the industry taking a spray and pray approach to pitching and I guarantee Kendra will have some insight as this from a podcast host perspective of just getting pitches that are in no way personalized to that particular host or that particular show right.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: I think people kind of get in this mindset of like, well, if it's a numbers game, right, like I'm just gonna find a list of podcast hosts and I'm just gonna send the exact same email podcast hosts and I'm just going to send the exact same email out to every single one of them and just kind of pray, like I said that, like a couple come through, right, and that is not at all the way that I recommend doing your pitch work right.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: We have a much higher success rate of getting our clients on podcasts because we are taking the time to really look at that show, look at their audience.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying we're listening to like a full episode before we're pitching, but we are really taking, you know, let's say, 10, 15 minutes to do a great deep dive on that show, listen to a little bit of it, watch the summary of it, you know, et cetera, so that when we do go to pitch, that host is very aware that like hey, we've taken some time here, right.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Like we are aware of what your audience is looking for and why we think this particular client would be a great fit for your show.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: And I think that that's such an important thing for you know, everyone to understand is you wanna be getting on quality shows, right, so make sure that you're putting some effort into that.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: And then I'd love to hear from you on just kind of the differences and pitches that you receive.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, sometimes I'm like, what are you even talking?
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: I don't even talk about that.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: They're like, hi, we've got somebody you know that we'd like to have on your podcast and he talks about real estate.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay, that that's great, but I don't talk about real estate.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: That's not my audience.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, yes, they're, they're very well, maybe, and I'm aware that there's a few realtors that listen to the show, but no, like that's just not what I cover.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: And it's like you didn't even look at the description of what I do, let alone listen to an episode, right.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And so I mean, if you show me you listened to an episode, that you took that effort, you move up a lot higher in the list of people that I'm willing to have on the show, right, and that's important.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: It is important.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: And another thing that's really important that a lot of people sleep on is follow-up too.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: We are really really big in follow-up.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: In our agency we're following up always if we haven't heard back for I mean, you know, not for not till a couple of weeks later.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: But I just mean that that is a general part of our work.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: That we're doing is the follow-up as well, because podcast hosts are human just like all the rest of us, right?
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: They flag stuff, they mean to get back to something they don't, right they're, something happens and they need to go take care of it.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: So I always always say, like, make sure you're doing that follow-up work too, because we have booked many a podcast based on the follow-up work that we do.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: So that's definitely a misstep that we can see people do, but just schedule that time into your calendar so that you can be making it happen.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Well, and the follow-up is really important because if I see that you're reaching out and you're reaching out more than once again moves you higher up in the list, I probably recognize the name.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Or if you forwarded the original email, I'm like, oh of it, but it's not my job.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: It's not what pays the bills all the time.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: The results of it do right, but not podcasting itself right, so it's not always 100% the number one priority in my world.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a priority, but it's not the priority, and so I think that's important to kind of understand that distinction there for hosts and why it's okay to follow up.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I'll definitely have people that'll be like I don't know, am I going to be bothering them?
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, no, I mean not if you're respectfully following up, like a couple of weeks later and, like you just said, I like to re-forward the original message so they can see the topics you know and everything like that, and then just give a hey, just wanted to check in.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: I think so-and-so would be a great guest for your show.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Let me know if you have any questions.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Right, it's not something big, it's not something long, it's not whatever, but it's really redirecting them to that thing below there.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: And speaking of topics are another thing that I think a lot of people misstep on, in the sense that if you go all the way back to my journalism days at Oregon State, like you know, 20 years ago or whatever, the biggest thing that we're always trying to do is make it as easy as possible to get to the yes right.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: So when you come with really great topics for a host, I gotta tell you 9.9 out of 10 times the host is gonna choose one or two of those topics, right, you are making it easy for them to say yes because they aren't having to do any additional work.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is folks are like sometimes I've seen this in pitches, and I'm sure you have too where they're like I truly think they think they're making life easier by saying like okay, here are the couple things that I'm an expert in marketing, branding, sales.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: You tell me what you want to talk about and I'm happy to come on and talk about that.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: You guys, no, no, now that host has to think about what they're going to talk about with you.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: They have to be, you know, doing this, research, et cetera.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: No, you come with topics, okay, and the host can obviously be like I want to tweak this a little bit, which is great.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Let me just correct you on one thing.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: The host does not need to think about what you're going to be an expert in.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: They have to hit the delete key on the email that you sent them.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Because that is exactly what I do to those emails I'm like no delete.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Guys, I was being nice and Kendra's giving it to you, real, okay, that's what I do.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: I delete it, it's gone, it's gone.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: But I think that's a really big thing.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: A lot of people kind of sleep on the topic, so they don't think they're super important.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: You know, to kind of be including and I'm telling you right now it is super important.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: The last mistake that I kind of want to say to people is, like, don't just think the big podcasts are the only things that are worth your time.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Ok, and this is really, really important.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Just like Kendra said, she sometimes has guests on.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: They.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Let her know afterwards.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Hey, guess what I heard from a couple of people after your episode aired.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: You know, et cetera, et cetera, that's it, that's what we want, right, a lot of people I talk to will be like, well, I don't know if podcast is really worth it, or I'm just going to go pitch, you know, eddie Porterfield, jenna Kutcher, pat Flynn, you know, whatever, whoever the expert, the big, big expert, celebrity is in your industry, and I'm here to tell you I think that's a great goal.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Like I am not here to tell you like, don't be pitching those shows.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not going to say that.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: But you have to have put in the work before you are going to be on those shows, Right?
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is you think your first episode is going to be one that gets 100,000 downloads, like no, you know that is not and you wouldn't even want it to be because, like I said, you're going to sweat and stumble your way through.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Like I said, you're going to sweat and stumble your way through, so what I really want you focused on is the right audiences and not getting caught up on the size of the show, which, by the way, you don't even know.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: That is not public information.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: So you're kind of making an best guest estimate.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: We have some backend tools we use, but for most people you are making just an estimate of, like, what you think or what size you think the show is.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: But really it shouldn't matter if 10 people are listening or 10,000.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: If they are the right audience, it is well worth your time.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: I would always rather be talking in front of 10 people that are my ideal audience than 10,000 people that don't give a crap about what I have to say.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: So I was on a meeting earlier this week with a client and their PR agency said I don't do PR because I just don't have the patience for pitching.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: I can pitch.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Podcast pitching, I think, is a little bit different.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: But the PR agency was like, well, we've got to do a lot of research to see which shows are worth your time.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: And I'm sitting there biting my tongue and it's bleeding because I'm like you put her on local news, you put her on these different things.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I'm like if we know that there's 10 people and I was literally like in my mind going, if there were 10 people that are her ideal audience, that we can guarantee were there, that's huge.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because, think about it, go to a networking event.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: I love chambers, I love my chamber networking events.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: I love, you know, my.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: I'm a member of Enforum here in Michigan, which is a women's networking group.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: How many people do you have quality conversations with at each of those events?
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Two, three, right, that's it, and it's a lot more work than showing up on a podcast.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that you know, so 10 isn't so bad.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: No, if they're the right people, I will always advocate that.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: It is worth your time to be doing that because, to your point at the beginning, they're listening to you talk for 30 minutes.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: They feel like they know you, they trust you.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: This is why this type of work particularly does so well for service providers, our clients that are in the finance law therapy worlds.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: They kill it on podcasts because that trust factor is upped so dramatically that people are like I got it.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: You know I'm finally talking to someone who understands.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: We don't really open up about our finances or our legal questions or things like that with people that we don't trust, right?
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: So when someone has heard you on a podcast for 30 minutes and they like you and they feel like they resonate with what you're saying, you better believe they're ready to book a discovery call with you and see about taking the next step.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: I love it, love it.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: So thank you so so much, first off, for joining me, because I think that this is, this is amazing, and I really hope that if you're if you're watching or listening, that you're taking this to heart and that you're really thinking about okay, who is my ideal audience?
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: What are those podcasts?
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Let me go look for some and pitch myself right.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: So give it a try.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Give it what's the worst that can happen, right?
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: What's the worst that can happen right?
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: I remember when I was in Sandler sales training, ken Sewell, who was my trainer, always used to say there's only two things to be afraid of death and dismemberment.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: And getting a no from a podcast host or silence is not either of those.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and, by the way, you will get those.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: You're going to get no's, you're going to get silence.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: So just know that that's also going to happen and don't let that be something that holds you back.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so get pitching yourself for podcasts.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Have a topic that you can talk about.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Lists are great.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: You know again things that are going to move the needle, that are of interest to your audience.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: So again, thank you so much.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: I think that this has been fantastic.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I can't let you go, though, without asking the question that I ask everybody on this show.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: This show is called Imperfect Marketing, because marketing is anything but a perfect science.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned?
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: That I need to track my marketing, and I think that this is like look y'all, I'm an Enneagram 7 outgrowing Like I just want to have fun, I want to hit the vibe, I want to do what I do Right, and it took me multiple years of not tracking.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: If I'm being perfectly frank, even though I ran this business and we tracked on behalf of our clients, I didn't really track my own marketing work right, and so that has been my biggest lesson.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Like I said, this last year 2024, the whole year I tracked that visibility, kpi, the events that I was going to, et cetera and that has made such a huge difference in how I move forward and kind of where I put my time and my energy, because I really have been able to say this worked for me, or this didn't necessarily hit for me like it did, or I made great contacts there, or whatever.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: So, as not fun as it may be, tracking is definitely the biggest thing that I've learned.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Tracking is such a huge thing, and again, I do it for my clients, but I've fallen off the wagon several times for myself.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: So, that is another one of my habit goals for this year, and I have actually been debriefing each all the stuff that I did or didn't do, because you know, there's always things that you had good intentions.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think that that's so helpful for moving forward and for me, like even the work that we've been doing to track a lot more.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: We now have multiple case studies on just me alone and, hey, when I did this, this was the result we saw.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: When I did this, this was the result I saw, and those have been really popular emails and really popular posts for people to kind of see like, oh, this is something she's doing and here's the exact numbers that kind of came out of that work.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: That's just so powerful, and people love case studies, right.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: They love to see real results, and if you can share yours, you're not having to get permission from clients and everything else that goes along with it.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: So there's just so much there.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you again.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: So much, christina, for joining me today on Imperfect Marketing.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it and I hope that those listening and watching that you got something out of it too, and if you did, it would really help me out if you would rate or subscribe wherever you're listening or watching.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Until next time, have a great rest of your day.