Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / My Favorite Lifting App for Evidence-Based Workouts (Michael Liu) | Ep 247

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My Favorite Lifting App for Evidence-Based Workouts (Michael Liu) | Ep 247 · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:01
  Philip Pape: If you're looking for the perfect training program, or you've been following random workouts, or even have no plan at all when you go to the gym, this episode is for you.
• 0:09
  Philip Pape: What if I told you that the difference between mediocre and exceptional results often comes down to following a well-structured program consistently and tracking the right metrics to make sure you're actually making progress?
• 0:21
  Philip Pape: Today, I'm sitting down with the founder of Boost Camp, michael Liu, who's also a strength athlete and is revolutionizing how lifters translate complex evidence-based training principles into real-world results in the gym.
• 0:36
  Philip Pape: Whether you're frustrated with confusing or ineffective programs, you're tired of program hopping, or you're ready to take your training to the next level, based on your personal performance and data, this episode will show you how proper programming and tracking can help your gains take off.
• 0:51
  Philip Pape: Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.
• 1:04
  Philip Pape: I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've invited Michael Liu on the show to show you how to combine the use of technology with evidence-based training.
• 1:13
  Philip Pape: Now, michael is a serious lifter, like I try to be, who's pulled 600 pounds off the floor and understands the importance of proper programming.
• 1:22
  Philip Pape: His app, boostcamp, has rapidly gained traction.
• 1:25
  Philip Pape: By giving you access to effective training programs for coaches who we all know and love in the evidence-based space, like Eric Helms, alex Bromley, greg Knuckles and Alberto Nunez and combining that with a clean design and workout analytics and you know how much I love data Today you'll learn how to find a program that works, implement proven training principles more effectively, track the metrics that actually matter for progress and optimize your training using that data Plus.
• 1:51
  Philip Pape: As someone who personally uses Boostcamp for my own training and my clients, I'm really excited to ask Michael about how the technology works and what the future holds so you can identify, track and customize your program to build more strength and size than ever before.
• 2:05
  Philip Pape: Michael, thanks for doing this and coming on the show.
• 2:07
  Philip Pape: My man.
• 2:08
  Michael Liu: Thank you.
• 2:08
  Michael Liu: It's an honor to be on your podcast, Philip.
• 2:11
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and you and I connected a while back I think you'd reached out about being an affiliate and I said what is this new lifting app that claims to be the best app for lifters?
• 2:20
  Philip Pape: And I tried it out and I use it now, which is awesome, right, I use it now and my clients use it a whole bunch of folks.
• 2:28
  Philip Pape: I've definitely referred to the app.
• 2:29
  Philip Pape: So today we're going to try not to make it an yeah, we're not going to make it an infomercial, but just so people know who are listening.
• 2:34
  Philip Pape: You know, I use it myself and I think it's a great technology.
• 2:37
  Philip Pape: So I want to ask you, if you went back in time and gave yourself boost camp when you first started lifting, what would that have done for your approach to training and your results?
• 2:50
  Michael Liu: Wow, that's an interesting question.
• 2:52
  Michael Liu: I mean, I would definitely be 10 times stronger than I am now Probably be a world champion powerlifter by now Competing in the IFBB pros, probably as well.
• 3:03
  Philip Pape: You would be man right there next to Eric right.
• 3:07
  Michael Liu: Jokes aside, I would say probably would have made more consistent progress.
• 3:12
  Michael Liu: When I first started lifting was back in the early late 2000s and that's when starting strength was very popular.
• 3:22
  Michael Liu: But I would say the science-based fitness hasn't really caught on yet.
• 3:27
  Michael Liu: So besides starting strength, people were still on the bodybuildingcom MISC forums putting out random splits and routines and mostly I was trying a bunch of different things and really just program hopping and wasting my time.
• 3:42
  Michael Liu: So I think if I had more structure in place, better access to incredible coaches, that is, on the bootcamp and also just on the internet now, I think it would have definitely made a lot more progress.
• 3:56
  Philip Pape: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 3:57
  Philip Pape: A lot of us have been through a similar journey.
• 3:59
  Philip Pape: Even though I started lifting later, it still took me 10 years to find starting strength or the muscle strength pyramids or any of these things.
• 4:07
  Philip Pape: And one of the most common questions I get from clients is like what people in general, what apps should I use to track my workouts?
• 4:13
  Philip Pape: And the fact that you can take a program in an app, find it, follow it and all for free.
• 4:20
  Philip Pape: I think that's powerful because that kind of connects to things that are often separated right, like I need to go find a program, so I get lost on the internet and I download some old Google sheet program from somebody to figure it out.
• 4:32
  Philip Pape: I have no idea what I'm doing.
• 4:33
  Philip Pape: Versus hey, jump right into Alex Bromley's bull Mastiff, like I just did a week ago, and you could customize it as needed, but you could just start.
• 4:42
  Philip Pape: So is that why you started BoostCamp, because you saw that need in the industry, or what's the story behind it?
• 4:49
  Michael Liu: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 4:50
  Michael Liu: That's exactly right.
• 4:51
  Michael Liu: So
• 5:02
  Michael Liu: my partner, patricia, she's the engineer and she's really the brain behind Boost Camp, but my background is actually in finance, so I'm quite familiar with using spreadsheets for work before we started building Boost Camp.
• 5:17
  Michael Liu: But the one thing that I noticed was, you know, as the fitness enthusiast amongst my friend circle, anytime someone will ask me for a workout program, I'll be like, oh hey, check out this spreadsheet and sounds 531 spreadsheet, where you're going to make great progress, and the most common response I get is I'm not going to follow a spreadsheet to go to the gym on my mobile phone.
• 5:42
  Michael Liu: So that's really where, to your point, the genesis of Boostcamp came from is to make workout programs more accessible so that people can actually follow them and make progress without needing to, you know, bundle with an Excel sheet on their laptop or bring, like you know, or trying to open Google Sheets on their phone.
• 6:07
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and it makes sense and I think there are apps out there that get part of the way there and I'm probably going to drop some of your competitors as we go through this.
• 6:14
  Philip Pape: But I used Train Heroic for a long time through a coach that I had, but you have to be a coach kind of paying into that and then the client can access it or you have to pay for a program if you're a client.
• 6:25
  Philip Pape: So it looks like you came in and disrupted that by offering the programs high quality, vetted from really good coaches for free.
• 6:33
  Philip Pape: And then you know there's premium features you could upgrade to on the app that are like the added value once you get into that ecosystem.
• 6:40
  Philip Pape: Is that a fair assessment?
• 6:42
  Michael Liu: yeah, I mean.
• 6:43
  Michael Liu: So before we launch better premium features, we used to get people who complain and say that oh, like, the premium version of bootcamp kind of sucks.
• 6:51
  Michael Liu: And the reason is because we give away the best features of the app, which is the ability to follow tons of amazing programs for free.
• 7:00
  Michael Liu: So the way I kind of describe it is like you're going to a restaurant and you get the steak for free but you have to pay for the ketchup.
• 7:09
  Michael Liu: You know what I mean?
• 7:10
  Michael Liu: Okay, you have to pay for the potatoes.
• 7:12
  Michael Liu: I mean, at least that's what Boostcamp was like before, where we give away so many features for free and we still do.
• 7:18
  Michael Liu: And frankly, I think that's important because you know our mission is to make science-based fitness more accessible, to make training more accessible for anybody, not just people who can afford it.
• 7:30
  Michael Liu: So you know to your point, we have tons of workout programs that are completely free to use on the app.
• 7:37
  Michael Liu: People can create their own programs for free on the app as well, or they can just track workouts like a simple workout tracker.
• 7:45
  Michael Liu: So we give away all these features for free so that you know we actually help people get stronger and reach their fitness goals and you know if they find the app useful.
• 7:55
  Michael Liu: Many people just want to support us, regardless of whether they actually need the free features or not, so that's really how we think about the business is not just from a financial perspective.
• 8:15
  Philip Pape: It really started as a pet project for us to, you know, make some moves in the space and I'm happy to tell people about it because, for example, you mentioned custom programs.
• 8:24
  Philip Pape: A lot of people get frustrated with how difficult it is to just make your own next session or workout.
• 8:30
  Philip Pape: And not only can you do that, you can do it on desktop, which is not that people are like, oh cool, you can do it on desktop, which is like I could sit down and create a 16 week very complicated program if you want, you know, in like 30 minutes on a desktop.
• 8:41
  Philip Pape: But I want to talk about those programs a bit, because the listeners are like fine, you have a bunch of programs.
• 8:49
  Philip Pape: What do they look like?
• 8:50
  Philip Pape: Well, you've partnered with a bunch of some of the most respected names in the industry.
• 8:51
  Philip Pape: I already mentioned a few in the intro and I know you've had some of them on your podcast as well, like what have you learned from them?
• 8:57
  Philip Pape: Because you and I were talking about how you bring people on to learn from them on your podcast.
• 9:01
  Philip Pape: What have you learned that makes a program actually effective versus, you know, it just looks good on paper, like a million others that are out there.
• 9:08
  Michael Liu: Yeah, I get questions all the time from users on Reddit and over email on what is the best workout program, and I think you know the right question is what is the perfect workout program for you?
• 9:23
  Michael Liu: Because I'm sure you know as a coach yourself, everybody is different.
• 9:28
  Michael Liu: People have different life constraints, people have different goals, some people are injured, so the perfect program really depends on the specific person.
• 9:40
  Michael Liu: So the one thing that we try to do on Boost Camp is to have lots of different programs, cater to different goals, whether your main goal is general strength training, bodybuilding, competitive, powerlifting, at home fitness.
• 9:55
  Michael Liu: So different goals.
• 9:58
  Michael Liu: We have filters for how many days you want to train.
• 10:00
  Michael Liu: So we have programs for 3 days a week, 4 days a week, even 7 days a week, programs for three days a week, four days a week, even seven days a week.
• 10:07
  Michael Liu: Programs for different equipment access.
• 10:08
  Michael Liu: So some people only have you know, only have a pull-up bar.
• 10:12
  Michael Liu: Some people have access to a home gym with only barbells and a few dumbbells and some people have entire access of, you know, like a commercial gym.
• 10:24
  Michael Liu: So by having all these different goals, different filters and also different levels depending on if you're a beginner, novice, intermediate or advanced you can really find the right program for yourself, and I think that is the most important factor between what is considered like a good program for you and versus not Now.
• 10:43
  Michael Liu: With that being said, there's definitely a contrast between good programs and bad programs.
• 10:49
  Michael Liu: Like we talked about at the beginning of the podcast, back in the early 2010s, there were a lot of really bad programs on the internet Programs where you know you're doing 20 different exercises per day or you're doing deadlifts after doing a bunch of isolation exercises.
• 11:08
  Michael Liu: Programs that generally would kill you from having way too much workload but actually doesn't help you make progress.
• 11:15
  Michael Liu: That's why I think we only try to partner with science-based coaches that not only are very knowledgeable from a science perspective, but also have a lot of in-field experience training clients as well to design programs that are actually good.
• 11:32
  Michael Liu: So the foundation of the programs are good and then it's up to the user themselves to figure out like what is the right program for them.
• 11:42
  Philip Pape: Right and definitely rely on those filters pretty heavily.
• 11:45
  Philip Pape: And then once you go into the program you could see the description of it and kind of the why behind that.
• 11:52
  Philip Pape: For someone who's been program hopping and ready to just pick a program, is there any advice you give them when they do that filter for the first time?
• 11:59
  Philip Pape: Because I could imagine you'd still be overwhelmed.
• 12:02
  Philip Pape: Right, you still pick all these filters and then you have like eight programs to choose from.
• 12:05
  Philip Pape: What would you recommend?
• 12:07
  Michael Liu: Yeah, I mean that's a tough problem and, frankly, it's something that I don't think we've fully solved, because, like you said right, we have so many programs on the app now by coaches and there's also thousands of programs uploaded by users as well.
• 12:21
  Michael Liu: Or even if you use all the filters, you might still get eight programs.
• 12:26
  Michael Liu: So I guess, like, ultimately, how you pick that, honestly, I don't have a great answer.
• 12:32
  Michael Liu: I mean, I'm curious on you know, from your perspective as a coach, like what would you recommend?
• 12:36
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I mean, I think one answer is you won't know until you try, Like that's.
• 12:40
  Philip Pape: One answer is unless you really know yourself like a late, intermediate or advanced lifter, many programs can work and I would just look at the workouts.
• 12:48
  Philip Pape: Like you can hop in and you can see OK, this is 18 week program.
• 12:51
  Philip Pape: Kind of jump ahead and see what the lifts, the movements are.
• 12:54
  Philip Pape: Look at the volume we were joking about bullmastiff, how it has like a massive ramp up in volume, and if that's not something you're going to stick with right now, maybe another program is right for you and not something you're going to stick with right now.
• 13:04
  Philip Pape: Maybe another program's right for you and there's also a description in there.
• 13:06
  Philip Pape: I know Brian Borstein.
• 13:07
  Philip Pape: He was on the show and he has a hybrid program in there.
• 13:10
  Philip Pape: So there's special interests people might have improving conditioning.
• 13:18
  Philip Pape: So yeah, I would say, just experiment and we'll get to later.
• 13:19
  Philip Pape: I wanted to ask you some about AI and technology in the future.
• 13:21
  Philip Pape: Maybe there's other ways to get there.
• 13:23
  Philip Pape: But here's a fun question what?
• 13:24
  Philip Pape: What's the most bizarre program?
• 13:26
  Philip Pape: Or like maybe it's a community program, because you don't want to throw any of your coaches under the bus that you've seen like created in the app.
• 13:33
  Philip Pape: I don't know if that's something you track and that worked well, you know, like a bizarre program.
• 13:37
  Philip Pape: Have you ever seen something like that?
• 13:39
  Michael Liu: Oh my God.
• 13:39
  Michael Liu: So we launched the community program feature in January of this year and now there's been I think there's over 3,000 programs now that have been published by users.
• 13:51
  Michael Liu: What's crazy is you can actually find thousands of users because you can see the number of athletes on each program.
• 13:57
  Michael Liu: Even for the community programs, you can find programs with thousands of users on them and there's definitely some like super niche programs that have done really well.
• 14:07
  Michael Liu: That's like super random.
• 14:10
  Michael Liu: We frankly had to take down some programs that are like inappropriate.
• 14:15
  Michael Liu: Okay, you know, if they have different, you know like 18 plus type of graphic, obviously we have to take stuff like that down.
• 14:27
  Michael Liu: But the one program that's done really well that sort of in a field that we hadn't really thought about is a stretching program, which I think might be the most popular community program right now and it's like a 10-minute stretching routine which I think is really smart because, you know, at some point the programs do become saturated, right, because there's so many programs out there now on BoostGap and a stretching program really benefits any single strength training program you do and it's definitely very important for just general health and preventing injuries.
• 14:57
  Michael Liu: So I think that program, you know, it's a really smart program.
• 15:01
  Michael Liu: I'm just taking a look now at some other ones.
• 15:04
  Michael Liu: There's like a basic grip routine for grip training that you know has done really well.
• 15:10
  Michael Liu: There's one called Shy Girls Get Fit with 800 athletes on it.
• 15:15
  Michael Liu: I mean, I recommend you check out the community program section of the website because you'll find a ton of interesting programs uploaded by users with just like the most random names and graphics but somehow they really attract like the exact audience for that program.
• 15:37
  Philip Pape: I love that right, like the stretching.
• 15:38
  Philip Pape: I could see why now you're going to have a whole bunch of people listening to this podcast go in and stretching programs because they don't grab attention.
• 15:43
  Philip Pape: But I could see that these kind of niche, supportive type workouts, like grip training, could be for improving your deadlift or for strongman or you know the jungle gym style like I forget the name, but you know the ninja style training and stuff like that.
• 15:57
  Philip Pape: I know data is a big part of this app on the back end.
• 16:01
  Philip Pape: Are you able to collect some sort of information or data not private data, obviously, but just patterns from the community workouts right now, like are you you know, without revealing any trade secrets or anything?
• 16:13
  Philip Pape: Are you able to analyze that in any way, because it's a big source of potential information on how people think about programming?
• 16:21
  Michael Liu: Yeah, to be honest, we haven't been able to focus too much on the analytic side of the programming yet at a very in-depth, detailed level, I would say the type of analysis that we ran have shown, for example, programs that are three days a week tend to have the highest retention for people to stay connected to programs.
• 16:43
  Michael Liu: We actually ran a pretty interesting analysis over a year ago on the most popular programs.
• 16:49
  Michael Liu: We did run a pretty interesting analysis a while back just comparing the starting WinRAM access for users on different programs and an aggregate level versus other programs.
• 17:02
  Michael Liu: I can share you a link where we share the findings with the community afterwards, but that was like a one-time exercise.
• 17:09
  Michael Liu: That I thought was pretty cool because you know how, like when you go to Reddit and you search program reviews, you'll find a lot of anecdotal evidence for programs and oftentimes the most brutal programs that people actually stick to end up having the best results.
• 17:30
  Michael Liu: But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best program for the general population.
• 17:34
  Michael Liu: So by able to see the starting one-run maxes and the drop-offs across different weeks, you can really see some interesting analysis on, okay, what programs create the best results but also have the highest retention, so that people can actually follow through with them.
• 17:53
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:54
  Philip Pape: That's a really great point Because we talk about sustainability and all this stuff, nutrition as well, and I could see two curves intersecting, one being like how effective it is for driving up your 1RM and one being how effective it is that you're going to stick with it.
• 18:07
  Philip Pape: Where's the sweet spot?
• 18:08
  Philip Pape: Where's the sweet spot for, like, the average person?
• 18:10
  Philip Pape: And so maybe you have a filter like how gritty are you with sticking to really hard programs, you know, on a scale of one to five, and then, like, based on your you know level of pain that you're willing to suffer, you know not, not really to make it sound that way it would give you the right program, way, it would give you the right program.
• 18:27
  Philip Pape: That's a really great point because we were joking again about the program I'm running.
• 18:29
  Philip Pape: Now, when you look at the reviews, you'll see a lot of folks are like I got three weeks in and then they post their review Like you got to give it more time, and then we'll see.
• 18:38
  Michael Liu: Yeah, we should consider changing that.
• 18:40
  Michael Liu: I mean we prompt users to give a review about three to four weeks in, and then you know they can choose not to leave a review about three to four weeks in and then you know they can choose not to leave a review.
• 18:52
  Michael Liu: But yeah, I mean the reviews really become more helpful, like later on, right, if for people to actually stick onto the program.
• 18:55
  Michael Liu: But then at the same time, if a program is too hard and most people are dropping off on week three, that probably means that the program you know might not be the best program for a lot of people.
• 19:04
  Michael Liu: So it's hard to say, yeah, the people, so it's hard to say yeah.
• 19:07
  Philip Pape: The weird ones are the ones where they're like five stars.
• 19:09
  Philip Pape: I'm three weeks in.
• 19:10
  Philip Pape: This looks like it'd be great for growing my legs and it's like a wishful statement, as if like but they're not going to continue.
• 19:17
  Michael Liu: Yeah.
• 19:18
  Philip Pape: But for you watching, you know, looking at the app it could be great.
• 19:21
  Philip Pape: No, it's pretty cool.
• 19:22
  Philip Pape: I mean, I love analytics.
• 19:23
  Philip Pape: I know we can always go overboard, like overanalyzing data, but I did want to understand how the basic analytics available, such as sets per week or any other metrics that you think are helpful.
• 19:35
  Philip Pape: Let me put it this way what are the top one or two types of analytics people maybe should look at?
• 19:40
  Philip Pape: That informs their training and maybe any modifications they should make.
• 19:44
  Michael Liu: I mean I think people should.
• 19:46
  Michael Liu: I mean, your question is around how you should track your progress really, and I think that actually goes beyond the app.
• 19:53
  Michael Liu: At the first level, I would say you know if your goal is weight loss or bulking, you should look at the scale, so you know that's probably the most important factor you know you should look at and then followed by probably the mirror as well, although that can vary depending on lighting, how you feel and all that kind of stuff as well.
• 20:16
  Michael Liu: But beyond those two very obvious and important factors in the app itself, I would say at the workout level, it's really helpful to just look at the weights and reps that you completed.
• 20:30
  Michael Liu: You know from your previous workouts, right?
• 20:32
  Michael Liu: That's the most obvious thing that I think any basic app should be able to offer.
• 20:38
  Michael Liu: So being just even tracking even for me, someone who's been lifting for over a decade, I find just being able to track how many reps I did, you know across my three sets, lat pulldown or any single exercise, just really helps me remember my progress.
• 20:57
  Michael Liu: So if I know last week I did 12 reps, then maybe for this week I'll try to do 13 reps, right, and if I'm at the top of my range, maybe I'll try to increase the weight.
• 21:07
  Michael Liu: So just being able to see that progress over time from the number of sets you're doing and the weight that you're doing and the reps, is just super critical, I think.
• 21:18
  Michael Liu: And then, if you have the basics down like that, then I would say some other analytics that we now provide in the app.
• 21:25
  Michael Liu: That's very interesting.
• 21:26
  Michael Liu: You can see your total workout volume over time.
• 21:29
  Michael Liu: So tonnage, your tonnage, yep, so you can see how that changes throughout the year, you know, is it increasing, is it decreasing?
• 21:39
  Michael Liu: Then you can analyze oh okay, like, how's my body weight also training during this period?
• 21:43
  Michael Liu: How's my results trending right?
• 21:45
  Michael Liu: Because more volume doesn't necessarily mean I mean you know this better than I do more volume is always better and less volume is always better.
• 21:52
  Michael Liu: There's a lot of variables, you know.
• 21:54
  Michael Liu: In that it's very something that you really need to think through.
• 21:57
  Michael Liu: And then some other analytics that we offering.
• 22:01
  Michael Liu: The app that I find to be quite bespoke to bootcamp is the muscle engagement tracker.
• 22:06
  Michael Liu: So I'm sure you, I'm sure you've seen this as at the end of every workout and if you go to the analytics tab you'll see this.
• 22:14
  Philip Pape: You know, big muscle guy yeah, yeah, the sets, the sets that you targeted each muscle right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:21
  Michael Liu: So that feature was so.
• 22:23
  Michael Liu: Eric helms and bryce lewis helped us develop this feature and it's super cool because it shows you your actual volume, done by muscle group, and the volume is actually calculated based on effective volume.
• 22:38
  Michael Liu: So, for example, when you do a set of bench press, you're using your chest, your front delts and your triceps, but you're not using the muscle 100%, you know, for the entire exercise, right?
• 22:52
  Michael Liu: So your effective volume might be 100% chest I can't remember the exact breakdown, but you know we have it by hundreds of exercises.
• 23:00
  Michael Liu: That's calculated, that's inputted, with the help of Bryce and Eric for that.
• 23:04
  Michael Liu: But it could be like 100% chest, could be 60% front delts and 80% your triceps.
• 23:10
  Michael Liu: We do that for like every single exercise that you do.
• 23:12
  Michael Liu: So by having it broken down in detail and being able to see that over weeks, you can actually calculate and see the volume that you're performing for each muscle group over time, which I think is a very good indicator of whether you're under training a muscle over training a muscle.
• 23:32
  Michael Liu: Even for me, when I see it, I'm like, oh, okay, like I'm not doing.
• 23:36
  Michael Liu: Oh, I'm like I'm not doing a lot of work on my rear delts or I'm not doing a lot of work on my calves.
• 23:43
  Philip Pape: I was going to say calves.
• 23:44
  Philip Pape: That's the one that often comes up.
• 23:45
  Philip Pape: It's like at the bottom right.
• 23:48
  Michael Liu: Exactly, yeah, man, so that's a really cool feature, I think, in terms of analytics at a deeper level for people that are interested.
• 23:56
  Philip Pape: Actually I think I agree.
• 23:57
  Philip Pape: That's one of the ones I look at a lot only because it prompts you at the end of the workout and then at the end of the week there's like a weekly report and on a program where volume is changing as part of the progression, it helps to see that, okay, my quad sets are actually going up.
• 24:15
  Philip Pape: You know they go up a third and then a third and then they drop back.
• 24:16
  Philip Pape: And we know from the evidence right that, and this constantly is getting refined.
• 24:19
  Philip Pape: But Jeff Alberts was on the show and kind of confirmed it again.
• 24:22
  Philip Pape: You know, godfather of natural bodybuilding, that 10 to 20 sets is generally recommended as pretty solid for a good training program.
• 24:29
  Philip Pape: But you could get an effective workout as low as five to 10, depending on how hard you're training and what you respond to.
• 24:36
  Philip Pape: And then the idea of variation throughout the year is helpful too, because you mentioned looking at your cumulative volume over the year.
• 24:43
  Philip Pape: I think that's helpful as well if you need to vary it up, if you're like I've gone through a six-month high volume phase, now I'm going to go through a six-month low volume phase.
• 24:50
  Philip Pape: Like you said, it's not necessarily high or low, that's better.
• 24:53
  Philip Pape: It might be that you need high and then you need low to get the response.
• 24:57
  Philip Pape: So I'm just kind of playing off that as how helpful that kind of data can be for folks.
• 25:02
  Michael Liu: Yeah, I actually had a pretty interesting chat with Eric about this because I was about to start a cut after a pretty serious powerlifting and bulking phase, and I was asking him is it possible to gain muscle cut?
• 25:15
  Michael Liu: Because the general consensus, I guess, is you can't, but the answer is actually a lot more nuanced.
• 25:21
  Michael Liu: So it's possible if you're a beginner at certain muscle groups.
• 25:28
  Michael Liu: So, for example, right, I was doing powerlifting for like two years like pretty seriously, like only squat, bench and deadlift, so I never really seriously worked my shoulders and my rear delts.
• 25:42
  Michael Liu: I feel like that's something that I'm definitely still a beginner at.
• 25:44
  Michael Liu: So if I focus my program on providing more training volume towards my delts, as opposed to muscles that I'm already pretty advanced at, like my back and my chest, perhaps I can actually make muscular progress during my cut and by using the muscle volume tracker, I'm able to look at how my volume is distributed during my cut to focus more on the developed muscle groups where I can actually make progress.
• 26:10
  Philip Pape: Oh, that's awesome.
• 26:11
  Philip Pape: That's actually perfect timing.
• 26:12
  Philip Pape: I was talking to a lifter friend of mine last week about can you get newbie gains when you're not a newbie, and we were talking about that idea of like there's aspects of your development and the way you train that are new or you've detrained.
• 26:24
  Philip Pape: Like if you've been doing powerlifting for a long time, you might be detrained with a lot of other muscles because you haven't hit them through hypertrophy workouts.
• 26:31
  Philip Pape: So for those listening like this is awesome, right, it's be smart about when you go on a cut and what kind of program you follow.
• 26:38
  Philip Pape: That might be the perfect time to go after an underdeveloped muscle group because, assuming you don't go more than like 500 calorie deficit because that's, I think, decent cutoff in the literature of where it becomes really hard to build new muscle Keep it moderate and go after targeted muscle groups that are weak spots.
• 26:54
  Philip Pape: That's a great tip, man, that's good.
• 26:55
  Philip Pape: So back to you were talking about like 5-3-1 and you know there's other programs that if you're kind of a newer lifter, they're a little bit complicated.
• 27:03
  Philip Pape: You don't quite understand with the undulation and the block periodization and all that.
• 27:07
  Philip Pape: How does the app, for example, make them more approachable without like oversimplifying, like still make it the actual program.
• 27:13
  Philip Pape: How would you say they do that?
• 27:16
  Michael Liu: yeah, well, the beauty is the app first, as you mentioned earlier, has an overview section where we explain in detail the structure of the program, the philosophy behind the program, and you can also scroll over.
• 27:35
  Michael Liu: If you go to the website or if you go to the program structure section of the program, you can see how the program looks week by week, with the different exercises, the sets, the percentages for each week.
• 27:48
  Michael Liu: So you can still get the high-level overview.
• 27:51
  Michael Liu: But where it really keeps things simple for the user is you click Start Program, onboard Program and then you just enter your OneRAM access and it calculates, it populates all your future weeks for you so that you don't have to do any jiggering.
• 28:07
  Michael Liu: And you don't have to do any jiggering and you don't have to figure out.
• 28:11
  Michael Liu: You know how to use a spreadsheet, you know to make this program run for you automatically.
• 28:14
  Michael Liu: So that's where we try to keep things understandable and you know, especially for the beginning of the program, but also make it super simple for somebody who's not familiar with, you know, the 5-3-1 structure to just click start, figure out their starting weights, in which, during the All-Borning 2, we have like a 1-RAM-Max calculator where they can enter the exercise and then it will calculate the 1-RAM-Max for them so that, even if they have never done 1-RAM-Max before, they can figure it out and then just start the workout, because you know you don't want to be fudging around.
• 28:50
  Michael Liu: You want to make it harder by you know, trying to be a computer scientist, work a program that's for somebody like me.
• 28:55
  Philip Pape: I get it.
• 28:56
  Philip Pape: I'm like this is too easy.
• 28:57
  Philip Pape: I I used to have to spend 10 minutes at least walking around my house like fudging with my next workout.
• 29:01
  Philip Pape: Now it's just like there.
• 29:03
  Philip Pape: Oh no, I had to find something else to do with my time.
• 29:05
  Philip Pape: No, that's good.
• 29:06
  Philip Pape: I noticed the program also has all this stuff.
• 29:08
  Philip Pape: People like RPE and you know percent, 1rm and all the different types of ways like MRAPs and such.
• 29:14
  Philip Pape: So you know we don't have to get in all the features like.
• 29:16
  Philip Pape: Somebody can go Google, like BoostCamp, and see all that Rest timers, warm up calculators, all that fun stuff's in there.
• 29:21
  Philip Pape: What I was curious about, like I mentioned this earlier, what is the human element that is the hardest to replicate?
• 29:30
  Philip Pape: Do you think that maybe is in the program or isn't yet in the program that you would love to see in there?
• 29:36
  Michael Liu: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 29:37
  Michael Liu: While it's really difficult to replicate the personal connection that you get from a coach, I've had some really great coaching in the past where you know it's not just the programming that a coach provides for you right, it's the mental support that you get from having somebody to cheer you on, to motivate you when you have a bad workout, when you miss a PR attempt.
• 30:04
  Michael Liu: Have a bad workout when you miss a PR attempt.
• 30:09
  Michael Liu: That element is definitely something that we don't yet have in Boostcamp.
• 30:11
  Michael Liu: That you know in an app format that you get, you know, from a coach.
• 30:14
  Michael Liu: You know the things that we try to do to replicate a little bit of that.
• 30:20
  Michael Liu: It's like, okay, we have streaks, you know we're going to have badges in the future as well, the launch community features.
• 30:27
  Michael Liu: You know we have all these data, you know, to try to keep people motivated, but you're definitely missing that human element of motivation from just having a coach to stay with you during the tougher times.
• 30:41
  Michael Liu: So that part I would say is pretty.
• 30:45
  Michael Liu: You know it's pretty hard to replicate, but it's also pros and cons, right.
• 30:49
  Michael Liu: So if a coach you know, if your choice is between getting a trainer at a gym, pop gym who you know.
• 30:58
  Michael Liu: I mean, I used to go to Equinox.
• 31:00
  Michael Liu: It's like this fancy gym and you know the first thing that be.
• 31:04
  Michael Liu: I always see trainers get beginners to do the most complicated exercises like a one-hand snatch or whatever, right, but it's almost like they're trying to confuse them, to make them use a trainer yeah, like you need me, you need me.
• 31:19
  Philip Pape: This is so complicated.
• 31:20
  Philip Pape: You need me, right?
• 31:21
  Philip Pape: Is that what you're saying me?
• 31:22
  Michael Liu: yeah, because I don't want to lose a client right and you know, oftentimes, you know, I find that the clients don't make any progress over a very long period of time, whereas if they actually follow a proven program from Boostcamp or from the internet, from anywhere, they would actually make a lot better results.
• 31:38
  Michael Liu: So there's definitely pros and cons to having a coach.
• 31:42
  Michael Liu: I mean in the app.
• 31:44
  Michael Liu: We definitely want to figure out more gamification elements to help people stay motivated in absence of a coach.
• 31:54
  Philip Pape: Yeah, that's always a tough one, right?
• 31:56
  Philip Pape: Because people want to balance, they don't want too many notifications popping up getting in the way of their workouts, but at the same time, they want a reason to go in.
• 32:04
  Philip Pape: I mean, for me, the reason to go in is just get big and strong, and if you're following an effective program, it should do that for you.
• 32:09
  Philip Pape: But anyway, oh man, what was I going to ask?
• 32:11
  Philip Pape: Oh, you mentioned already a couple interesting findings or tips from other coaches you've worked with.
• 32:16
  Philip Pape: I'm just curious if you have any more things like that where you've, since you started developing the app, you've added a feature or a way that it calculates information or what have you based on what these expert coaches have shared with you in working with them?
• 32:31
  Philip Pape: Does that make sense?
• 32:32
  Michael Liu: Yeah, I think the programs.
• 32:37
  Michael Liu: So when we first launched the app, we were digitizing a lot of popular programs from the internet onto the app and now, as we work with coaches, more and more to develop exclusive programs on the app.
• 32:50
  Michael Liu: You know you can think of like a Netflix special, but for you know BoostGam original type of thing.
• 32:56
  Michael Liu: But as we looked at, okay, what type of programs people love the most, what type of programs have the best retention are, you know they're typically programs that change in structure over time.
• 33:10
  Michael Liu: So instead of just having a program that looks the same week after week, there's elements of the program that changes.
• 33:19
  Michael Liu: So, for example, a 12-week program might be broken down into three phases of introductory volume, accumulation, intensification or you know the reps and the RPEs or percentages if there are percentages change over time Just having more progression in the program itself.
• 33:41
  Michael Liu: You know we found people generally like that a lot and they tend to want to stick to the program instead of it's almost like a freshness to it.
• 33:51
  Michael Liu: Right that you start program hopping.
• 33:53
  Michael Liu: They can still enjoy that freshness without having to switch the program and lose all the progression that they will be making.
• 34:00
  Michael Liu: So you know that's definitely a big one that we learned hey, just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.
• 34:07
  Jerry: I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.
• 34:15
  Jerry: Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taking the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth.
• 34:26
  Jerry: If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level.
• 34:39
  Jerry: Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have.
• 34:47
  Jerry: And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use.
• 35:06
  Jerry: If all that sounds interesting to you.
• 35:08
  Jerry: Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out.
• 35:14
  Jerry: So thanks again, Philip.
• 35:18
  Philip Pape: That is a very, very big one, and you're hitting on spots that I've personally been thinking a lot about lately.
• 35:22
  Philip Pape: And we talked about 531.
• 35:24
  Philip Pape: We talked about Bromley.
• 35:25
  Philip Pape: He loves base and peak phases.
• 35:28
  Philip Pape: I've seen myself like, if I'm just going to do the same lifts for week after week after week after week, I'm like I need something.
• 35:35
  Philip Pape: Just for my mental health.
• 35:36
  Philip Pape: I need something different.
• 35:37
  Philip Pape: Even if you're like, no, you just got to grind it out, you know, just just keep doing sets of five forever.
• 35:42
  Philip Pape: Right, I'm like, well, as a human, it's not going to work.
• 35:44
  Philip Pape: So I think that's big and it's important for people to understand that that sense of variety itself is a driver of growth.
• 35:53
  Philip Pape: Like you know, the fact that you have, like you said, different rep ranges, different percentages.
• 35:59
  Philip Pape: Your body gets exposed to these things and that is a huge driver of growth.
• 36:02
  Philip Pape: So I love that.
• 36:03
  Philip Pape: You mentioned that.
• 36:04
  Philip Pape: I think people should look for that when they're thinking of can I stick with this program for like four months, as opposed to having to hop around every four weeks to a new program because it's getting stale.
• 36:13
  Philip Pape: So I love that.
• 36:15
  Michael Liu: One more thing I would mention too is just having more personalization elements in the app.
• 36:20
  Michael Liu: So when we first started we only had programs from coaches and then we found that, okay, people want to be able to switch to different exercises, want to swap to their own exercises.
• 36:32
  Michael Liu: So you know, having that being able to modify existing programs we found to be very important.
• 36:40
  Michael Liu: And then taking a bigger step is being able to create their own custom programs.
• 36:44
  Michael Liu: So I mean generally for newer lifters, I don't recommend it.
• 36:50
  Michael Liu: If they have a coach, like yourself you know, who's very knowledgeable, great right, you can create a program for them in the app and send it to them to follow.
• 36:56
  Michael Liu: But for general beginner, even novice lifters, I would recommend they stick to a pre-made program for them, because you don't know what you don't know.
• 37:05
  Michael Liu: So you could be wasting your time thinking of the best program and you switch that every few weeks and at the end you end up making no progress.
• 37:13
  Michael Liu: But having the program creator I found to be another important feature in the app for people that are tired of following a program or they actually moved on to being intermediate or advanced lifter and they want to follow their own programming.
• 37:29
  Michael Liu: So having that feature we also found to be very important keystone feature in the app that we didn't really think about when we first started BoostGap.
• 37:41
  Philip Pape: And I'm very glad it's in there, or else I wouldn't find it usable, like me personally, because I need to swap things out and when it comes to accessory lifts and equipment availability, it gives you a lot more flexibility and then you can swap it out and have it apply to future workouts, which I, like you know.
• 37:55
  Philip Pape: Once you swap it, it's like do you want to keep this for the future ones?
• 37:57
  Philip Pape: Yes, let's do that.
• 37:58
  Philip Pape: The thing about programming in general, I think what we're revealing through this conversation is, you know, programming itself is a skill and everybody needs a different entry point and I think a good tool can help do that, whether it's Boostcamp or there's other tools, obviously, but kind of making it easy to jump in and do something effective.
• 38:17
  Philip Pape: It's funny you mentioned like pre-made programs, because sometimes people denigrate templates and programs, but in reality I think most beginners can follow a number of templates just fine and make massive progress and not overthink it and then start to learn oh, this works for me, this doesn't, let me tweak it.
• 38:35
  Philip Pape: I think a really good coach that comes in like if I have a new client that's never lifted before, I'm probably going to get them on a very standard program.
• 38:43
  Philip Pape: It might be my template, but it's still.
• 38:44
  Philip Pape: I'm not going to highly customize it because I have no clue how they're going to respond.
• 38:48
  Philip Pape: So if you're doing this for yourself and you like, download Boostcamp, think of that, just get into it, have fun, try it out and you'll know pretty quickly if it's for you and if not.
• 38:57
  Philip Pape: There's a million other ways to do it.
• 38:59
  Philip Pape: I want to ask you I know there's a premium version and I've seen that there are some programs labeled as pro.
• 39:05
  Philip Pape: What's the difference with those versus the free programs?
• 39:09
  Michael Liu: Yeah, well, as we launched so many free programs on the app.
• 39:13
  Michael Liu: We still launch all free programs, to be clear, but we now have premium only programs.
• 39:19
  Michael Liu: So these are programs where we partner with a coach to deliver a lot more in-depth programming.
• 39:26
  Michael Liu: So, for example, in the Paris Butler ball-dominant program, he's written a really complex program, Easy to follow but complex in terms of all the notes that he provides.
• 39:39
  Michael Liu: We talk about.
• 39:40
  Michael Liu: You know changes within a program.
• 39:42
  Michael Liu: You know he's programming progressions.
• 39:45
  Michael Liu: You know for every single week he's filming detailed instructional videos.
• 39:51
  Michael Liu: You know to go along with the program.
• 39:53
  Michael Liu: So you can think of them as a way for us to offer almost like coaching in some ways.
• 40:03
  Michael Liu: Just you know a lot more personalized programming to help people, you know, get the results they want.
• 40:10
  Philip Pape: Yeah, that ties well with what we were saying before and I didn't realize the.
• 40:13
  Philip Pape: You're right, the instructional videos can be customized because the default library it's like you know you go to Barbell Backsquat.
• 40:19
  Philip Pape: It has kind of a silhouette animation of a back squat and what you're saying is maybe there's more custom YouTube videos linked in there, wherever the video comes from, in the pro programs and again, for people listening, like there's a ton of programs available for free.
• 40:32
  Philip Pape: It's just you may find others that you really want that are in pro, even the one I'm following now.
• 40:38
  Philip Pape: I'm a premium subscriber but it's free because it's the one I wanted to follow.
• 40:41
  Philip Pape: All right, man, is there anything else you wanted to chat about regarding either the app or programming or lifting in general?
• 40:47
  Philip Pape: You know I didn't bring you on here as like a lifting expert or program expert.
• 40:52
  Michael Liu: I'm definitely not.
• 40:53
  Philip Pape: But you've learned a lot, just like I have like, through the grapevine and through your relationship.
• 40:57
  Philip Pape: So is there anything else that you wish I had asked or you want people to understand about all of this?
• 41:02
  Philip Pape: Maybe the future of where this technology is going, or something else?
• 41:07
  Michael Liu: all of this, maybe the future of where this technology is going or something else.
• 41:10
  Michael Liu: Yeah, I mean, I would say we really listen to user feedback and we develop new features very quickly compared to, you know, a lot of other app developers.
• 41:21
  Michael Liu: You know we are very involved, like I answer, you know, every single user email.
• 41:26
  Michael Liu: You know our subreddit.
• 41:28
  Michael Liu: You know I try to answer user questions and participate in community discussions.
• 41:32
  Michael Liu: So all of the features and all the programs that we've developed on the app has been through community engagement and feedback from users like yourself.
• 41:44
  Michael Liu: So you know to the extent that anybody has any feedback for the app.
• 41:50
  Michael Liu: You know we're always listening and, you know, willing to iterate and experiment and develop.
• 41:56
  Michael Liu: You know, to make BoostCamp better.
• 41:58
  Michael Liu: I guess from your perspective now, having used BoostCamp for quite a while for yourself and you mentioned you've sent programs to your clients as well, like you know what's your experience been like and what do you wish that we had yeah, man, good way.
• 42:11
  Philip Pape: Turning it back on me.
• 42:12
  Philip Pape: I mean, little things come up all the time, as they always do.
• 42:14
  Philip Pape: No app is perfect, right?
• 42:15
  Philip Pape: There's always things, probably with when you customize an existing program, maybe just the interface being a little more intuitive.
• 42:24
  Philip Pape: That's a minor thing, like I was able to figure it out like less than a day.
• 42:27
  Philip Pape: Obviously it's figureoutable, but, uh, all of these things can be like less taps, less confusion of how you do it.
• 42:34
  Philip Pape: That's the only thing that comes to mind, cause I think it's an amazing app and again, I use it.
• 42:38
  Philip Pape: So, but I love that you do that.
• 42:40
  Philip Pape: Like I use macro factor as well.
• 42:41
  Philip Pape: Right the stronger by science guys, the same thing.
• 42:43
  Philip Pape: They have a reddit and facebook group and they're like they got their roadmap planned out and everything and they're listening to folks.
• 42:49
  Philip Pape: So as long as you're doing that, we know it's going to improve, even if there's things that people might have frustrations with now and, and that's that's the thing yeah, I mean the tough balance to juggle here is we're catered to both lifting enthusiasts and also complete beginners.
• 43:06
  Michael Liu: So when you talk about lifting enthusiasts especially those that are coming from like a spreadsheet, you need to have the advanced functionalities for them to create and edit programs as they would in like a Google Sheet.
• 43:22
  Michael Liu: But then if you have all those functionalities laid out, then it's going to be extremely confusing to beginners who just want to get started working out.
• 43:34
  Michael Liu: They don't want to be learning a brand new technology.
• 43:37
  Michael Liu: So that's always like the struggle.
• 43:41
  Michael Liu: Think about the UI, ux of the app when we have requests from people.
• 43:47
  Michael Liu: Like you know, we have some requests from users on like really advanced analytics, right, or like a really niche feature that maybe 0.1% of people will actually use.
• 43:58
  Michael Liu: You know, is that something that's more worthwhile developing versus another thing that you know it's more simple, that benefits more people?
• 44:06
  Michael Liu: And so it's always a struggle to try to figure out like, okay, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense.
• 44:13
  Michael Liu: Like we just launched something like for swap exercise that helps a small niche of programs but negatively impacts other programs.
• 44:22
  Philip Pape: Oh yeah, that happens right when you do an upgrade and people are like what happened to this thing?
• 44:26
  Philip Pape: I relied on all this time.
• 44:28
  Michael Liu: It went away, yeah exactly, and what we thought was going to be improvement and it is improvement for certain use cases is actually a detriment in the other use cases.
• 44:36
  Michael Liu: So there's just so many different demographics that we got to think about, and when you push out an update now, it's going out to hundreds of thousands of people.
• 44:47
  Michael Liu: So it's something that, as we scale, we have to be very thoughtful in terms of what comes out, what doesn't come out.
• 44:53
  Michael Liu: How do we prioritize different features and different designs?
• 44:58
  Philip Pape: Yeah, sometimes the feature's there and the user just takes a little more playing around to find it.
• 45:03
  Philip Pape: Sometimes there's secret menus too.
• 45:05
  Philip Pape: I don't think yours has a lot of those.
• 45:06
  Philip Pape: But I'll talk to you offline about one thing I'm thinking of and see if you could tell me how to do it differently, cause it could be me.
• 45:14
  Michael Liu: Okay, yeah.
• 45:15
  Philip Pape: Yeah, it's a minor thing.
• 45:16
  Philip Pape: Again, I love the app.
• 45:17
  Philip Pape: I think this is awesome.
• 45:18
  Philip Pape: I think the way that, like on your landing page, it says like the best app for lifters and when I first saw that I'm like that's a bold claim to make because there are a million apps out there, but the fact that, as a lifter myself, it does the things I wanted to do and maybe there's competitive apps that do that as well You're on the right path and I'm happy to shout it from the rooftops and recommend you guys.
• 45:38
  Philip Pape: So those listening right now.
• 45:40
  Philip Pape: Again, it sounds kind of like an infomercial, but it's because it's a helpful app and you're trying to lift and get jack, swole, strong, lean, whatever the word is you'd like to use.
• 45:47
  Philip Pape: You know, go download the app.
• 45:49
  Philip Pape: I'll throw the links into the subreddit as well.
• 45:51
  Philip Pape: I think that would be cool.
• 45:51
  Philip Pape: Boost camp itself and anywhere else you want people to find you uh, yeah, I mean I would just say the.
• 45:58
  Michael Liu: The website and the subreddit are, uh, you know, the two places we're most active.
• 46:03
  Michael Liu: Yeah, I recommend you check out the website and play around with the different filters to look at different programs.
• 46:11
  Michael Liu: You know we talked earlier about the community programs, which I think you know.
• 46:15
  Michael Liu: There's some pretty hilarious programs out there that people are creating and publishing.
• 46:19
  Michael Liu: You know we're definitely thinking about better ways to display new programs as well incentivize users to create more programs.
• 46:28
  Michael Liu: I think we've done a pretty good job so far with the product building and making the app useful.
• 46:35
  Michael Liu: I still think we're very early on in terms of our ultimate vision of making the best lifting app out there.
• 46:42
  Philip Pape: Awesome, man, and, honestly, one of the best things I learned about you today before we recorded was this is your first podcast as a guest appearance, which I'm very happy to have you on Right Is that right First, and it shows that you're like a guy behind the scenes that just wants to get it done.
• 46:55
  Philip Pape: You're not necessarily out there to just, you know, promote an app, so I think that speaks volumes.
• 46:59
  Philip Pape: Thanks, man, for coming on.
• 47:01
  Philip Pape: It was definitely a lot of fun.
• 47:02
  Philip Pape: I think the listeners get a lot from the show.
• 47:04
  Michael Liu: Yeah, no.
• 47:05
  Michael Liu: Thanks for being a great host, preparing the great questions.
• 47:07
  Michael Liu: You made the first podcast appearance very easy.
• 47:10
  Philip Pape: Cool, awesome, awesome, awesome.
• 47:15
  Philip Pape: Except I told you something in the app that needs to be fixed.
• 47:17
  Philip Pape: Shouldn't have done that, because honestly, I love the app.
• 47:18
  Michael Liu: I mean there's.
• 47:19
  Michael Liu: We get tons of emails about tons of things that need to be fixed, so I'm sure.
• 47:22
  Michael Liu: Yeah, I'm no stranger to that Cool man, All right.
• 47:25
  Philip Pape: thanks for coming on.
• 47:26
  Michael Liu: Okay, thanks, philip, great chatting.