Latest / WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas / 135: Workplace Trauma: What To Do When You're Stuck with Maya Borgueta, PsyD

Transcript

135: Workplace Trauma: What To Do When You're Stuck with Maya Borgueta, PsyD · WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about workplace trauma.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope saying those words does not trigger you.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I actually just came back from DC.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was there for a full week in DC and Virginia for a wedding, spent time at the National Mall checking out the museums.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: And DC is a place where I used to live, actually.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I did fundraising and development.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And right out of college, I worked on political campaigns.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I was on a plane once a week as a former fundraiser, whether it's DC, New York, LAOs, and always in a flight.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: And working in political campaigns, as you can imagine, I dealt with a lot of workplace trauma from microaggressions, bullying, hypervigilance, just preparing for the worst case scenario.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, at that time, I didn't even know that I was going through workplace trauma.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank the goodness for therapy.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been interesting.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like this past decade since 2020, who knows, maybe you're listening to this in the 2030s, 40s, or 50s.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I'm gonna get old.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm noticing more of my clients, my audience being self-aware and asking the questions, am I in having workplace trauma?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I had two interesting conversations.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: One person who was sharing, because I am recording this in 2026, when I go on LinkedIn, it feels like a graveyard of the unemployed because there's been so much mass layoffs.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I had another client sharing, hey, my team has reduced my expectations have not.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: So today I'm sitting with Dr.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maya Borgueta, a licensed psychologist based in Valencia, Spain, originally from the States, who works with professional women, woman of color, the LGBT community.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And in this episode, we get into the definition of workplace trauma and signs you might be carrying it right now.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: That also includes burnout.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, burnout has been a big thing right now.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're aware of this, what to do about it?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you're gonna want to grab your coffee, tea, boba, a heating pad, a fidget toy, and uh let's drop the beat.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I am recording all the way from California.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maya, where are you recording from?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're from California.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I am in Valencia, Spain.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Not Valencia, California.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Maya, you're from the Bay, if I remember right, originally.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I spent most of my adult life in the Bay.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in New York, but California is the place in the world that feels most like home to me these days.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So as we're recording, it's 12 p.m.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: here, it's 9 p.m.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: there, I believe.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, before we were talking, we were just talking about what happened in the news.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because, and and this has to deal with the workplace trauma, because for both of us, we work with a lot of women of color, people of color, children of immigrants, where it could be very heavy because it affects, you know, our generations.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we'll go deeper into that.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: But this theme is talking about workplace trauma.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And Maya, can you share more about yourself?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I work with uh primarily professional women, um, often women in STEM or in corporate environments or in academia, um, and also members of the LGBTQ community.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have been working uh as a therapist in a private practice for a little over eight years now.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've been uh doing this since I was in an office uh pre-pandemic and went through the whole transition to being online.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I moved my practice um fully online.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And now, as I mentioned, I'm living in Spain and continuing to get to do this work from abroad.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, my practice uh really focuses on supporting women, women of color, women with multiple intersecting identities to navigate the personal and professional areas of their life as it relates to their mental health.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and an area that has become really an area of focus for me has been workplace trauma, because as I've been working with these populations and especially working with people with multiple marginalized identities, it's become really clear to me that what we experience in our work lives is hugely important to our mental health.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like we spend so much time of our, so much of our lives at work.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as you know, adults, we're lucky if we get to spend only 40 hours uh at work every week.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it becomes a big part of our identities as well.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so when work's going great, we can be thriving.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: When work's not going well, we're often really struggling.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate Maya because she reached out to me because in her line of work, she meets patients, clients who are looking for wanting to work with a coach.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: For me, because I work with so much inclusive, diverse leaders.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I understand ethically there's a point where I can't help a client and they need more therapy.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, Maya, I appreciate you reaching out to me and finding me.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to connect with you.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we did not plan this.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: We are different wearing different shades, 50 shades of pink today.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's very like women's month appropriate.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're recording this like first week of April, but we just had women's month.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm just sharing this because I just noticed it.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's not necessarily workplace trauma, but you know, I was getting my nails done.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's owned by fellow Asian women.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very interesting being a fellow Asian woman.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sitting there, and then two not diverse women come in.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And guess who was seated first?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Even though I made an appointment, it was clear one of them was a walk-in.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Just it's so frustrating.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we think about trauma, it's like it's the other, but then it could be your own kind.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: I am sharing that story because I am feeling spicy right now.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but before we talk about workplace trauma, let's talk about what trauma is.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think we unfortunately see it on social media.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I get annoyed, I'm sure you get annoyed.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody thinks they're a therapist, but they're not yes, they're not not just licensed, but they're not creating a safe space for people.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways, what is trauma, Maya, since you are a therapist?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, I appreciate that.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um, I am glad that we are actually talking more about trauma because I think, you know, when I was uh doing my training 20 years ago, it was not something that we talked about so often.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad that we are having more conversations about trauma.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: The way that those conversations are happening online and social media are not always accurate, are not always um the most helpful.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes themselves are really not trauma-informed and can can be harmful sometimes.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's good to be able to have a conversation about this.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, trauma is basically um an experience that we have that we experience as something that's uh an existential threat, a threat to our basic sense of safety, security, and survival.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Trauma is not just uh something that we experience as negative or unpleasant or even deeply unpleasant, but it's something, it's an experience that because of how it impacts our sense of uh security and survival, um, our bodies respond to it very intensely.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that um gets stored in our brains and on and in our bodies and our nervous systems differently than an otherwise, you know, the than a another negative memory.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I remember sharing this with with you when we first met.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I think about trauma in my body, when I worked in political campaigns, and a lot of you might relate, hopefully not now, but before, where I woke up just anxiety, not looking forward to doing work.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like there was just so much I I couldn't even think of resting.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know what rest was.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And my whole identity was just constantly working, and even it felt where oh, why would I go to the gym?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have work I need to do.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're really frozen.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was really frozen.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I a lot of our listeners could probably relate, but as a child of immigrants, it was just like I needed to work so much because I saw how much our parents worked.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm just I'm just sharing my personal experience.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying this has to be everybody else's, but I know sometimes it helps hearing that.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: What are examples of workplace trauma that you've you've heard from folks?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: There is a wide range.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, um, I want to rephrase the question.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: What are major ones you've heard or noticed lately?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very curious.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: What are trends you're noticing in the decade of 2020 that is horrible?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Since COVID, essentially.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't believe we're more than halfway to 2026.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, in the past six years in your observations, what has what has been the top workplace traumas?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Not that we want to rate it.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I do think that COVID has absolutely been um a driver of a lot of trauma, um, both obviously in our personal lives and in our professional lives.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think back to my experience being a therapist in the early days of COVID when we were first going into lockdown, and really everybody was scared.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't know what was gonna happen.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was worried about dying.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I was looking at those that curve and the whole like bend of the curve messaging we were getting and wondering like, oh, am I going to be one of the people that dies of this?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and obviously that was something I was dealing with alongside everybody in the world at that time.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: But as a therapist, I was also having to deal with that in my work.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: My clients, for a while, that was all we were talking about was people's experiences, their fears, their own losses.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Some people were having experiences at work where they weren't feeling supported to be able to do their job safely, they were feeling bullied into not taking precautions for themselves or working when they're sick.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And all of those things can be traumatic.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Trauma, sometimes we have one big trauma.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when we think about like workplace trauma, a lot of times people think of like um first responders like witnessing a really, you know, serious death or a really gruesome death or um being a teacher during a school shooting.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and those absolutely can be very traumatic events, but some of the traumas we experience are more of the types of trauma that build up over time.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think, you know, in in the COVID era, we had a lot of those, like, oh, there's a lot of trauma that is building up little by little in our day-to-day, week to week.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm hearing, you know, obviously the lockdown.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious, what are other traumas you have heard from folks who are marginalized as well, that they've experienced?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Any examples you want to share?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because unfortunately, as we were talking about earlier, our work is the majority of the day.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so kind of similar to how we grew up, and then we go to therapy, we thought this was normal, and you're like, no, that is not normal and healthy.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then we go to work and we think, oh, this is normal.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, nope, you shouldn't feel that way.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are examples of workplace trauma that people could be mindful of?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm thinking about mar your question about marginalized people in particular, um I two two things are coming to mind.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: One is um experiences of sexual harassment, which I have seen escalate into actual sexual assaults that have happened in the workplace.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we know obviously women experience that at much higher rates.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, women who are already marginalized in their workplaces are more vulnerable to that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Workplace um travel, actually, I have found when people are on uh work trips.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's a particular risky time, particularly risky time for um uh sexual trauma to happen among co-workers.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's often alcohol involved.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's all often.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing I thought of.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was like alcohol when it's workplace trauma or when there's an event that's happening.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other thing that comes to mind is um, you know, you were alluding to before with your uh uh uh Neil Salon story is microaggressions.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And a single microaggression is unlikely to cause a traumatic response.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: But when we're experiencing many microaggressions over the courses of our careers, a cumulative effect uh can be traumatic.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, I think people who have not been on the receiving end of microaggressions very often will often look at this and say, that's not really a big deal.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't you give them the benefit of the doubt?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why would you prefer to think of that in the why would you prefer to assume the worst of that person or that situation?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the reality is when these microaggressions are building up over time, you become sensitized to them because they are actually, again, a threat to your survival, maybe not your physical survival, but your livelihood.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Our work, we don't, most of us um don't work solely for the love of the job.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: We work because it is how we survive.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's how we care for ourselves, our families, how we put food on the table, have, you know, a shelter over our head.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And when we are being consistently giving messages, we don't really belong here.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um our work is always going to be seen as less than other people.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: We may not have the same opportunities as other people, even if we're being told we do, we see that we don't.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, those we begin to experience as a survival threat.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that is why um microaggressions can be a traumatic experience in addition to an unpleasant experience.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to know what you would do or what you've advised your clients to do.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, as a coach, right, if there's a situation that a client has experienced, or actually even me, right?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Where I remember, oh, interesting.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: All these people are talking to my colleague who is a white male, but not me, even though I have the higher title.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I did, um, and thankfully I had a coach and a therapist at the time, I had a direct conversation with the individual.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, I'm curious, I noticed you always go to that person, yet this is my roles and responsibilities.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can you help me understand?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, like they just are kind of tongue-tied.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, well, I just want to let you know that this this is I'm the lead of this project.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely talk to me.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: What I've also done is tell my colleague, hey, I'm noticing this.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just redirect them?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I have done that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have let my clients know.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be honest, I just don't have energy and space to do the whole like policing.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, do you notice that because this person is white, you're talking to them, and I just don't have energy.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I focus on the work dynamics and problem.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then when it gets fixed, it's great.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: But as you know, that's a perfect goal or situation.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people deny it, they continue to do it.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I see you sighing because what what do you what would you tell a client?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, this is not therapy by any means, by the way.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: So please seek a therapist.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, what do you tell someone in that situation when they've tried and nothing has changed?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there is a one size fits all answer to this question.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think it's ever uh I don't think it's fair to put on people.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's always your responsibility to be, you know, wagging your finger and correcting people.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's gonna depend a large degree on what is your goal in this particular situation and what does the what what what piece of this is actually within your control?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you are showing up to, you know, these conversations, knowing that you have a supportive colleague that will respond positively if you ask them to notice this and help you redirect, that gives you a lot more to work with than somebody who finds themselves consistently in a hostile work environment where they know that um they're going to be, you know, have somebody rolling their eyes or they're going to be demonized or misunderstood for trying to bring up this pattern that you're noticing.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's gonna be depending on what your goals are, is if it's to correct the situation, if it is to stand up for yourself, sometimes that's a good enough goal in itself.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Without the attachment of something change it, it's the standing up for yourself when Hunch percent.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Doing the doing it really for yourself to say, no matter what response I get, I'm going to feel bad about myself if I don't speak up.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I know I need to do this.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: That might be, you know, a different path.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that is information.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're experiencing that consistently, sometimes that's information that this is not the workplace for you.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's not fair to put the weight of changing all that on the person experiencing those microaggressions.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of the I mean, I am not a therapist, but I'm trauma-informed certified.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And a question I ask my clients when they're in the situation, like, do you feel comfortable sharing it?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's an important question, Tas.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel comfortable even sharing it with the individual?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Not saying they will take it and do something, but do you feel safe?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes, unfortunately, there are situations where you do stand up for yourself.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's your goal.
• 19:55
  unknown: Yep.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, you could unfortunately be retaliated against that.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: That happened.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know that because you have seen that with other colleagues, past colleagues, past situations, even if it's not yourself or the other.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: What are signs and symptoms of workplace trauma?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So hallmark simple symptom of trauma is hypervigilance, hyper-arousal.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So um, when we have been through trauma, um, we are primed and ready to notice and protect ourselves from danger.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the workplace, that might look like um really being on edge or really watchful, ready for the shoe to drop, ready to be yelled at.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you might find yourself, okay, I have a really nice boss now, but every time she wants to talk to me, I'm noticing like my palms are sweating and my heart's and my, you know, beating out of my chest.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even though she hasn't done anything.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of my clients find themselves in uh rumination patterns.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: So they're constantly thinking or replaying scenarios from um workplace experiences that they've had in their head.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Burnout in itself isn't necessarily trauma, but a lot of times they're also showing signs of burnout, like um feeling really cynical, hopeless, finding their worldview is changed, finding their mood is really terrible.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh yeah, struggling with that.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I know people would need a full-on therapy session when it comes to the hypervigilance, hyper trauma, and the burnout.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're sharing this, the oh, our listeners are probably I am feeling that way.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: I do get on edge.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like I'm what's I forgot what the phrase is, but walking on eggshells, getting ready for this meeting.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, oh, I did not realize.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was in trauma.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I thought this is normal.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um what are what any advice, tips, or questions people could think about or reflect on in terms of knowing that, oh, I think what Maya is sharing is what I'm experiencing right now.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I think this can show up in a spectrum.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: By the time people are really starting to question if this is what's happening with them, I think it's already probably a good idea to have a conversation with somebody, um, maybe a therapist or a trusted mentor or somebody in your support system, because by the time you're really questioning if this is going on for you, I think regardless of if this is okay, workplace PTSD, you don't need that label to really be deserving.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you actually sharing that, the connecting, like, yes, to a therapist, but even to a friend.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: What I have noticed, and I'm sure you've probably noticed it too.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is in my case studies of clients I've been working on, yeah, working with, I should say, where people are nervous and scared to share with fellow friends and family members.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying you share this on Instagram or Facebook, but I think back, I mean, we're both around the same age as millennials, where we would call our friend in high school about the boy drama.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was not really big boy drama, you know, finding that too.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Who do you feel safe and comfortable with, whether it's a current colleague, a past colleague, or friend of, hey, I'm going through this situation because as human beings, we heal when we connect with people we feel safe and comfortable with.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you sharing that.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so many times when people are in these really toxic or traumatic workplaces, part of the experience of that is we lose our frame of reference and being able to share with a friend, like, this is what's going on with me at work, and having them respond with concern or um validating that, like, oh, that that doesn't sound okay, um, can also be really, really healing and really help figure out what your next step's going to be.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I you all know that there's been so much layoffs that has been happening in this country, not Spain, very jealous you're in Spain, but either in the States.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I have even told my clients where they have been laid off or they see restructuring of, hey, those colleagues that left, whether it's by choice or obviously they have time and they've been able to reflect, feel free to talk to them.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very interesting where when you're talking to someone that has just experienced it, or even a friend in a different company, like, yeah, I went through that too.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's validating because as you shared, we make excuses in our head because it has become normalized.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: To feel this.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: One thing we haven't really talked about yet is emotional abuse in the workplace, which I think is.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: You want to share some examples of what emotional abuse is?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because yes, it is the top trends.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to be social media here, but I think, yeah, go ahead.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, as you were sharing.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, unfortunately, um, I think workplace dynamics can enable abuse because you have this really hierarchical structure where the people lower in the hierarchy feel very dependent on uh for their position, for their again, for their livelihood, and um have less power than the people higher in the hierarchy.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the things that I see are obviously can be verbal abuse, like putting down an employee um, especially in front of their colleagues, where it would be humiliating, um, name-calling, insulting people's um intelligence rather than constructively criticizing their work.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um I see manipulation sometimes in terms of power play, playing employees off of each other, which should Oh, those narcissists, keep going.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're talking before about how important community is and healing and being able to talk to colleagues that you trust.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: These these workplace dynamics can uh poison the well for that and make it you know, make it feel ultra competitive or cutthroat or unsafe to talk to your colleagues.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some other stuff I've seen is um denying people time off that they have the right to, sometimes um as a manipulation, uh, denying accommodations that people deserve and need.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um then boundary issues is another big, big one that I've seen, like bosses asking inappropriate favors or um calling employees in the middle of the night to talk about unwork unwork-related stuff.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: What have you advised your clients when those I know they're all situational, but if there was a tip or advice, I know that's hard to do, but I just I kind of want to give listeners like what's one thing they think of, or yeah, go ahead.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hard question to answer because therapy is so contextual.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think as I would tell anybody, well, here's what I'll say.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: The first important thing I think is to name it for what it is.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: The self-awareness.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is, and it's something that a lot of times people experiencing abuse hesitate or they're not sure, or they feel like they're being dramatic to name what they're experiencing as abuse.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And there is actually abuse happening in workplaces.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is abusive to scream at an employee, right?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And being able to identify it as a um an abusive dynamic rather than just it's oh, it's a toxic dynamic, or that's just how so-and-so is, which is, you know, same as in families, in workplaces.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: People are like, oh, that's just Brad, that's just what he's like, you know, he doesn't really mean it, he'll calm down.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then that type of abuse can be normalized.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: So actually being able to know what's happening, helping people sometimes draw those parallels with what they understand as abusive dynamics in other relationships can be important.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um what to actually do in the as a next step, once you are clear on what's going on and and have some awareness about how it's impacting you, that that part is going to be really specific to your situation because um, you know, it's going to be sensitive to um what your financial situation is like.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Are you able to get out of there now?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you are, great, wonderful.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: The faster you can get out of there, the better for your mental health.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not always possible.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: What's the rest of your workplace like?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Are you going to get support there or are you going to get retaliation?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: All those factors are going to play a role in deciding what to do next.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And as a therapist, my job isn't to push you to do any one thing.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, as a trauma-informed therapist, my job is to hold space for you to figure to figure out what are your options and to help you feel empowered to make choices.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's aligned to you.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there have been unfortunate situations with my own clients where they've been in situations and sure they could bring legal into it, but they thought it out.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why would I want to re-traumatize myself?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, I don't know.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Look at look at what's happening right now in this country and who they're not listening to.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there is no right or wrong.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: It as you said, it takes money and time and energy.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I will also share though, not just with clients, but even people in my close circle when they're in a work situation where they are feeling burnt out, um, the emotional abuse, and they have the financial reservoirs to leave, their dynamic with their family changes.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's so like they're like, wow, my relationship with my wife and my kids, I'm more present because their brain, their whole body and being is so consumed in the fight or flight and the traumatic experience.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Burnout has been, I would say, a number one word and trend I hear from my clients.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious if it's because people feel more comfortable sharing that word.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: As opposed to the emotional abuse and sexual harassment.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like, oh, it's American culture to talk about burnout.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think in our, you know, in US capitalistic corporate culture, um, we're often encouraged to wear burnout as a as a sign of uh working hard enough.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like weren't burnout is a sign of pride, even that look how hard I'm working.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying because I'm Asian, okay.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: I had to, I had to unlearn this and still unlearning it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: I feel so bad because Maya and I had to reschedule.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I had three speaking engagements, not bragging, but my capacity, but continue, Maya.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think being able to call it burnout, we we tend to shrug it off.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: We tend to say, oh, you know, I need a vacation.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we tend to assume that, you know, it's just a matter of self-care.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it it I think burnout is is real, it's a real phenomenon, but it's misunderstood and it's misapplied.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think it can be used to um soften or or cover up more serious trauma.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: What have you noticed burnout looking at looking like for folks?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: The way that I describe burnout is it feels like you are uh a cell phone with an old battery that just won't charge.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can plug it in and maybe it charges partially the Motorola razor that's frozen in the snake game and it's not moving.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I had one of those.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Same.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's odd to bring it up.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And Gen Z, like, what are you talking about?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's they're called dumb phones.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's what all of you are trying to do right now because it's trending.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: But keep going.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: So old cell phone trying to charge.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you charge partially, but it's hard to get back to 100%.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it just feels like you won't you won't hold the charge well anymore.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: You might be resting, you might even take a vacation, take some time off, and then you're still feeling exhausted afterwards.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times with burnout, people find themselves feeling really cynical or hopeless or kind of losing, losing kind of their their optimism about themselves and about their world and you know, in the professional arena, maybe about something they've they've previously been really passionate about.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying because I've been just hearing more of this with my clients, um, I would say mid 30s, 40s.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And a client shared this so eloquently and beautifully, she's like, I'm just done betraying myself.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Mmm.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do this anymore.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like it becomes visceral.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: I know there's bi I was actually I was talking to my girl AI, Claude AI, which is also woman's own.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, please check your sources.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: But as we get older for women, our hormones, right?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like it changes.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And literally, our hormones are just telling us like we can't take bullshit anymore.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: I have heard this.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the uh scientific literature has to say about that, but anecdotally, it certainly meant.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Personally, I relate to it.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: I will say this, like my own case study of living my life for decades, where it's like, I just I can't mask anymore.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's so easy in our 20s because so much energy, right?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: To do everything.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And as a child of immigrants, that was people pleasing, but then going to therapy, which I'm grateful for, I've unlearned it.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I just I can't do it.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm hearing this from a lot of this is just my own personal experience with clients, like mid-30s and 40s.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just can't do this shit anymore.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm burnt out.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the amount of times they shirt or push it create the boundaries that they can, and then they unfortunately have to make the choice to leave job situation.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've been seeing this.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually curious.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have been having a lot of conversations with clients recently who are very much ready to leave internally, um, but they are feeling really hesitant because of the way that the job market has been.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: There are people who might have been um confident years ago that if they quit their job to take a take a sabbatical, take a break, that they would be able to get another job easily are no longer feeling confident about that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm noticing that driving people staying in unhealthy or like burnout prone workplaces longer.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Going to your point that you said earlier, I think it depends on their financial situation.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: However, there are some people that are they see the marketplace and with AI happening, the job market looking at their specific industry sector, like for example, tech, they're doing so many layoffs of this is not the industry I need to be in.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I do need to take a break and I need to upskill.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, let me see my competitor AI and let me learn more about this.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Let me network and connect because also looking for a job is kind of like a full-time thing where you're absolutely networking.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really hard to go to put all that work in when you're also still working another job.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, I'll be transparent to work with me is a premium price.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: So people do work with me in those situations.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say the common theme of people that do leave and maybe they don't have a job lined up, but they are looking or they're being more mindful.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: All of them, 100% of them, their family life has improved.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Not just because they have time.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like I get it.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they have time, but but like the small little ones, I took my daughter to school.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or my teenage son was having a meltdown and I could actually be there for him because my brain's not consumed with everything that's happening at work, and I was able to be there with him.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I see that with partnerships too, you know, romantic relationships.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: That um when you're in burnout, you just don't have the energy.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have capacity.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to care for your partner in the way that both of you would like.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and opening up that um that capacity has really profound positive impact.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I'll share the other ladder of it.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm this is not me trying to fear or scare people, but though there's also been situations where I've had clients where they knew they're about to get let go.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but they're like, I'm gonna stick through it, I'm gonna stick through it, and then they get let go or some horrible situation happens.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: They already had an inkling and feeling, right?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: But then it happened, and there's nothing wrong with that.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's why they work with me or a therapist or another coach.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: It does not matter.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they're starting to do the work.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just it's what we're both trauma-informed, it what it's what makes you comfortable where you're at financially.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: While at the same time, to what Maya was sharing earlier, which if there's one takeaway I would hope people would get is connect with your village that you feel safe with.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be people at your word, but humans been humans have been around for a very long time.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Also, I if there's one thing that's great about the news right now, is just watching the whole Artemis, like what is happening.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: We got poets up there that are so diverse, but just them sharing about humanity in one.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's so cool.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I saw your face.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Anything you want to comment on that?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just I love I love watching that news, not anything else.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: It is then a bright spot among the rest of the um the mess that is the news these days.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I just I look at them and I just feel awe.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: I feel inspired.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna brag the pilot, he went to Ontario High School, which is where both my brothers went to high school at, and he's obviously deserves it, but I also am so happy it's a person of color.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but with him and all of them sharing how you look back from the moon to the earth, and it's literally one thing.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: We are one.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't um I don't love the uh environmental impacts and all the whole uh billionaire mess around space tourism, but on a personal level, I would love to go up there and look down at the You know, I think I I'm gonna share a personal story.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I was feeling burnt out last year.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was trying to make a decision, and then I spoke to a friend, and a friend was talking to me, and she made me feel safe and comfortable.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, I think I'm gonna do this.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have like the motivation to do it, and then I was talking to my therapist after I'm like, I don't know what happened and magical powers that happened with my friend that she did to me.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is just helpful in terms of the neuroscience.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: But my therapist was describing like when you're with someone who's safe, a therapist, a coach, a friend, they give off mirror neurons, just mirroring back to you and how you feel and you feel comfortable, and it's validating for you to move that next step forward to make that decision.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: I will say all of these things can be so powerfully healing.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are noticing that you've gotten to a safer place, you do have a supportive network, you do have um, you know, space now to care for yourself in a healthier way after you've left a toxic or a traumatic workplace environment, and you are still finding yourself with hypervigilance, you are still finding yourself depressed or um struggling to motivate yourself.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe now you have your dream job and you're just not feeling it.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are signs that you are carrying trauma from that, and that would be for me a really clear signal that it would be time to get additional mental health support.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate you sharing this.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: What's interesting is when I have recommended, obviously gently with my clients that maybe you should consider a therapist.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I have gotten this remark.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: I've already tried it, it didn't work.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um what would you share to our listeners where it's like I already tried it, it didn't work, I just talked about my feelings, I'm just done talking about it, I want it fixed.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's valid, that's fair.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that a lot of people have had experiences in therapy that have not been helpful.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I do think not every therapist is gonna be your therapist.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if you try one therapist, there are thousands of people out there who might be a better fit for you, whether it's their style, their approach, their education, your personalities.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you need a therapist who specializes in working with women of color who will understand that aspect of your experience and how it is um impacting you.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would I would encourage somebody to who is still having these symptoms and is is still looking for support, looking for healing, try again with somebody else.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Ask friends, ask people you trust.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do they have a therapist you recommend?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you're particularly looking for work around trauma, look for therapists with um trauma specialty or people who have that in addition to the other things that you're looking for.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I I bring that up because I mean, I've also shared similarly where it's like dating, it's about finding the right person, and you're gonna have to go on first dates with therapists.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'll share for me personally, I think I've gone through six therapists because I got a lot of work I need to work on, which is fine for me to admit.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a human and things will constantly happen to me, so I'm happy to go to therapy for tuneups.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: But my current therapist, I knew I wanted an Asian woman.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: I also wanted a woman older.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say she's a boomer, like my parents' age, because I wanted someone who lived through life.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's for me.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: I have other clients where they have a therapist where they wanted someone who was LGBTQIA plus.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or I have another friend who is bipolar and wanted someone who is neurodivergent.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go to psycholytoday.com, you could put all those preferences.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's just really up to you.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maya, I know you gave so much of your time, but I was.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: love for you to share who I know you shared in the beginning, so want you to repeat it.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: Who do you love working with?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Who do you think might be a right fit for you who might be listening to might be listening to this?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I love working with professional women, especially women of color, especially women who work in STEM or other demanding professions, and members of the LGBTQ community of all genders.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of my clients are women of color and particularly first and second generation immigrants who I think we bring our own experiences to the workplace, to our personal and our professional lives.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say like my style of working with clients really aims to blend having a safe space, having a place to talk, to vent if you need to, to get support, to build insight into understanding your patterns better, as self-aware as anybody is, you still have areas that you're going to miss because we all have our biases and having another person to help you build that insight is really important.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I also try and be practical.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um you know I want people to have tools that they can can take home.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want them to have a new framework to think about something.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody wants homework, I'm happy to give them homework.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't always do that.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah those are the those are the types of clients I work with and that's what I'm like to work with as a therapist.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: And how can people find jail?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: The easiest way is to go to my website stella novapsych.com.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: I also do have a network, a small network, um a very selective network of therapists that are also listed on uh on the Stella Nova website.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're looking for something that's maybe a little different you might find somebody like that.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: So unfortunately we started this call after looking at the news you know we're talking I know we're talking we were talking about burnout emotional abuse the heavy stuff that I feel like a lot of our clients have been dealing with in silos and then unfortunately as we're talking about this and you're listening like oh I'm not the only one I'm unfortunately not but I do like any last words for our listeners given the current state and climate of things.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you are struggling right now you are not alone and I know a lot of times um we uh women of color women uh children of immigrants we tend to uh pack that all away and put on a brave face um and that can be really isolating um but we are in this together and I'm so glad that we got to have this conversation today um I am feeling energized and restored um and I'm just really glad to connect with you.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: And she's feeling energized and restored because we connected as humans hopefully you're not too energized because I am mindful that it is evening there.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you get to sleep well.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: But Maya thank you so much for time your wisdom and please check out Maya I'll put all of her URLs here in the show notes.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay thanks so much one thing I want you to get from this episode because it's been a trend I've been hearing from clients is burnout is real.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: So even if you've rested, taken a vacation, got a new job and you're still not okay and your body's telling you something or body's just even telling you something from other things that might be a cue and a clue.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe even just you listening to this episode that you may need additional help.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: So just like what Maya and I were talking about I highly suggest seeking a therapist and more importantly finding the right one.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you could go to psychologytoday.com I also put that link in my show notes and filter it by specialty maybe it's a specific identity or background you have or maybe you're neurodivergent they have those filters and if you're like I'm not sure you don't have the budget I completely respect that.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so if it's not a therapist, what I do suggest because we are human beings, we are meant to be in community and connection, I want you to find at least one person you can connect with.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if this episode hits home for you, feel free to share this with a friend or two, send them a little message on why they should listen, what are possible takeaways and it would mean so much if you could leave a rating and review for this podcast.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll talk to you soon.