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Forced Into Marriage at 17 · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Hey, tolerators, this is to all the men I've tolerated
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: before with Nambly Katona, your weekly look at everyday misogyny.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Today, we have a new friend. Thanks, TikTok, as our guest.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Amanda is going to share with us how misogyny led
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: to her being married at 17 and and also her
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: work to try and change the laws that allowed this
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: to happen. Thanks for being here, Amanda. Thanks for being
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: open to a stranger on TikTok.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me and for being open to
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: a strange stranger on TikTok. I love that one gay
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Filipino designer saying they felt uncomfortable in the space and
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: my comment welcoming them. led to this interview. I'm so
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: glad that Kirvan spoke up and that we could have
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: a conversation and figure out, well, how do we know
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: each other?
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: It's Kirvan. It's Kirvan. It's Gen Con. It's D & D.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't go that far yet because I
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: am still learning the particulars about D & D. which
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: is how I got to Gen Con. My kids got
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: interested in D & D and I was raised Seventh
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: Day Adventist. So when I had too many questions, my
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: con friends were like, well, you could come to this convention.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: And I thought that meant like exposure to D & D.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: I didn't realize they were going to introduce me to
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: some guys. It's been great for my kids. They get
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: wonderful books every year. And I love the people I've
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: met at Gen Con, the way it's expanded. my vocabulary,
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: but I've only played D & D like three times
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: and it's kind of a struggle bus for me. I
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: think it'll get there.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I've been playing since I was eight years old and
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I'm always like, and I too am a lifelong learner
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: because what do you mean I'm not allowed to do that?
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: That seems unfair in my fantasy world that I'm not allowed.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: When did that rule change?
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What do you mean?
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Why did they change the name of my spell? well
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: well uh well amanda if you i would love more
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: background information about you and the way that you were
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: raised especially because number one every time i go to
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: say seventh day adventist adventist i can't say For some reason,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I can't say Advent and then add an ending to it.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm Catholic.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: Okay, so we shouldn't even be talking right now. Because
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: to start with, the Seventh-day Adventist faith believes that you
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: worship from sundown Friday night to sundown Saturday evening. They're
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: a demographic of Christianity, but something I was taught in
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: the spaces I was raised by Adventists in the 1900s.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: was that the Catholics were going to come for us
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: and we were going to have Sunday laws. We wouldn't
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: be able to be good Adventist Christians worshiping Jesus on
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: the appropriate day because the Catholics were just going to
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: take everybody over and we'd all have to worship on Sunday.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: So there's still propaganda that they put out condemning Catholicism
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: in particular. They talk about how the Catholics will drag
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: us all to hell. I find it in my local
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: little library. And when I do, because I recognize it
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: for the propaganda, is I remove it from the little
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: library and I compost it. I take the covers off
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: and then I compost the pages because it's shit. And
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: that's part of where compost comes from.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Seventh-day Adventism, I would call a cult. I think it's
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: an extreme religion. They do a lot of control via food.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: There's bland diets. If you know why cornflakes were invented,
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: then you know a lot about the Seventh-day Adventist faith.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: And in the late 1900s, they were very, very anti-anything
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: fun like Dungeons and Dragons or secular... anything, movies, music,
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: you had to be very careful about what you put
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: in your brain, because that's going to rot you from
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: the inside out. So like, I would save up my
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: dollar adues and buy thrifted books that looked interesting. And
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: then I had to read them fast, because once they
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: were found, I didn't always get to know the ending.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: I learned how to be very sneaky. And I had
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: an accomplice. My dad was raised Seventh-day Adventist, and he
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: left the faith before I ever joined it. But he
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: was a single dad. My mom lost custody in their battle,
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: which pertains to the child marriage legal on later on.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: And my dad was known as Moss. So he was
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: a mechanic who went by Moss because you are what
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: you eat. No one was going to call him a pussy.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: And I have been telling muff jokes since I was
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: like three or four. It was cuter when I was young.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: Less cute at 43. We moved to a small town
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: in Arizona called Lake Havasu. It's home of the London Bridge.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: And it's a party town.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I was 11.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: And my dad had remarried by then. His wife and
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: I did not get along. She was a fucking monster.
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: And at 11, I slept on a bed next to
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: the washer and dryer in our garage. And for people
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: who don't know Lake Havasu City, Arizona, it's home of
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: the London Bridge. This guy who got his money from
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: chainsaw manufacturing bought the London Bridge from the city of
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: London and moved it brick by brick over to Arizona.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: built it on dry land in a former army recreation site,
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: rerouted the Colorado river underneath it, and then built a
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: fucking town around it. And it's like a hundred.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What do you mean? I bought the London bridge.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, the city of London was selling the bridge
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: cause it's fallen down.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: So I moved it.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: They numbered the bricks. I'm fascinated by the history of
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: the town and like chainsaws were invented to help with
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: labor and delivery. spoiler, the mom. Did you not know that?
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: No. Oh my God.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: Oh, okay. So chainsaws were a labor and delivery advice
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: for when the baby gets stuck. You just saw through
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: that pelvic bone and you help the baby get out.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: Does the mom survive? Is she able to hold her
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: pee afterwards? Does it matter? You've got a son and
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: wives are replaceable. It's like beginning misogyny. And then this
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: guy makes his fucking money off of it and builds
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: a town. Where? Do you know what Havasu is known for?
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: I said the London Bridge, but it's also known for
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: its pornography. So when I introduce myself to people and
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: they don't know Havasu for its London Bridge, they only
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: know it for something else.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, big fan of Girls Gone Wild then. I see you.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: So we lived in Havasu for a while and When
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: I tell it on the internet, when it makes the
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: front page of Reddit, I say things like, this one
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: time at band camp, I met the love of my life.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: And that's a lie from day one. It's a lie.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: I actually missed band camp the first year, and I
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: didn't start high school until like three days into the
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: high school year, because when I went to see my
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: mom that summer, people expected me to stay, and no
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: one signed me up for high school.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: So.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: it was a conundrum when I showed up to school
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: and my stepmom had dressed me in really tight clothing
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: and this Victoria's Secret push-up bra and I was 36, 24, 28.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: So just absolutely stacked and she did not dress me
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: in a way to protect me. And the first time
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: I stepped on the football field, it's brother and sister
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: duo ran over to introduce themselves. They saw the way
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: that older boys looked at me like I was prey.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: And she immediately swooped in with her brother and they
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: just introduced me to all these safe people. And then
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: they introduced me to Cody, right? They were like, he's amazing.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: You're going to love him. He's so funny. And he
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: was absolutely fucking hilarious. So in 90, 1998, our friends
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: voted us cutest couple to be. And in 1999, we
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: were voted cutest couples. And then in 2000, we had
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: cutest coupled our way into teen parenthood and we were,
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: we were told that, uh, we would be giving our
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: baby to an infertile Christian couple that, uh, my stepmother
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: chose for me. And those people named my baby while
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: he was still in utero and they took him home
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: from the hospital. And that was almost exactly 26 years ago. Um,
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: And I didn't sign the paperwork. They waited the minimum
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: number of days. And when we wouldn't sign the paperwork,
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: they were forced to give my son back. And I
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: told my husband, like, you can leave. I'll tell everyone
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: I'm a hoe and I don't know who the baby
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: daddy is, even though we all know who his dad was.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: And my husband, my now husband, was very offended. And
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: the next month we were forced to marry again. Which
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: is why we are now both survivor advocates against the
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: practice of child marriage in America, which is probably how
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: you and I met because I talk about that incessantly
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: on TikTok. I have all these other cool things I
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: used to talk about in the early 2000s. It's what
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: led to the pinback button line and the obscene dishware
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: and attending Gen Con and like all this. cool shit
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: is because I ran my mouth on the Internet. And
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: it all started with being married off so young and
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: knowing that they had violated my mom's custody rights and
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: like you're in the hot seat. What do you do?
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: Is this a valid marriage?
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Is it voidable?
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: Am I protective if he dies in the service? Like,
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: because he was active duty. So what happens to his
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: little missus if the military finds out that on the
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: day we married, my stepmother signed instead of my mom?
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Or that, you know, I had to be placed in
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: a chokehold by my dad to go through with it
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: because I knew it was done wrong. And now I'm
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: diagnosed as like deeply hurt. on the spectrum somewhere. So
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: how you do things matter. And I think any board
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: game lover is like, well, yeah, the rule followers out
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: there know the steps matter. When you're playing a board game,
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: when you're writing a note for someone to leave school,
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: why wouldn't it matter with a marriage license? And I
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: still don't know. Are we legally married? Is it is
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: it valid?
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Is it voidable?
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: I've talked to so many lawyers. I've talked to so
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: many law firms and law schools and random fucking strangers
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: across the internet or in person. I got a problem
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: and everyone can know about my problem. Maybe someone can
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: help me.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, does your state have common law marriage? I
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: barely understand a common law marriage.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: So from what I've learned, it was, It was a
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: voidable marriage and in voidable marriages, it's valid until a
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: court determines otherwise. So it's Schrodinger's marriage. We're both married
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: and I just assume that we're married until somebody says
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: we're not married. And how does that happen? One of
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: us has to go to court and say, I don't
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: want to be married anymore. Can you annul this? And yeah, OK,
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: we've gone on long enough. Is it divorce now or
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: is it annulment? I started working with an organization called
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: Unchained at Last. which was started by Frady Race. And
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: Frady Race, I hope I'm saying her last name correctly,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: was forced to marry in the United States when she
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: was 19. She has two children she did not consent
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: to have. And she talks about it very publicly as
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: she tries to raise the minimum age for marriage to
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: 18 with no exceptions. And I think she's just so
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: fucking baller. Like I hope cursing is okay on your
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: program because I've lost my filter, but she's so amazing.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: And knowing that she's out there and fighting an even
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: more difficult battle than I had, because at least I
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: was married to another survivor who loved me and was kind.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Like working with Unchained, I have learned so many other
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: horror stories and they still encourage me to speak up.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: One of the counselors I talked to at Unchained, they
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: vet you before you're allowed to work alongside them. told
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: me that you can drown in a puddle or you
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: can drown in a lake, but at the end, you're
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: still drowning. So you're not less drowned because it took
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: less water. And I was like, oh, well, that's a good,
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: that's a good metaphor considering I'm from Lake Havasu. I
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: know they don't want me to mention that, but I
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: named drop Lake Havasu City all the time. All the time.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: And I say I know they don't want me to
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: say it because in April I have a whole thing
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: on TikTok. It's part of why I reached out to you, actually,
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: because so many people from Havasu said that I should
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: shut up and nobody wants to hear from you. And
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: this isn't true. And why are you shitting on our town?
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: And you're not even from here. And like. It really
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: hurt my feelings because lots of people like to hear
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: from me and I have a great story to tell.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: I can be an asset when I'm allowed to be.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: And in case listeners are having a hard time with
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: the blow by blows.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. I'm so sorry.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: You're OK.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: It's just that your story is so fascinating that I
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: want everyone to understand how often your right to agency
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: and to advocate for yourself and your consent was violated
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: because we need to start talking.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: It's all of it.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: It's all of it.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, whether or not you would have ever
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: considered it, I'm sure abortion was never on the table.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Like, not actually.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Oh, well, actually, let's get into the nitty gritty because
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: this is all shit. My kids know. And in the past,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: TikTok commenters have said, I feel really bad for your
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: children for how you talk about this. Well, the kids
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: are adults and they can drink about it later. And
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: they already know this because we have talked about it
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: for years. Abortion was the first option offered to me
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: by my stepmother when I told her I was pregnant.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: And she illegally drove me across state lines to Vegas
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: to obtain one. But I was so far along because
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: I was so malnourished and I had skipped periods for
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: so long. I didn't know I was pregnant until it
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: was far too late. And then we didn't tell my
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: now husband's family right away because his mom is kind
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: of mean to me and was worse at the time.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: So she found out when my husband fainted at the
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: women's health clinic. and hit his head going down. He
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: saw some blood spurt out and he just at the
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: time had that reflex down. He went and the women's
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: healthcare clinic made his parents pick him up. That's how
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: his parents found out he'd knocked up his girlfriend. So
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: then his mother called a meeting and it was his father,
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: his mother, his stepfather, his dad's girlfriend, not serious at
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: the time, my dad and my stepmom and my husband
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: and me, and I was not allowed to talk. I
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: was told that my mother-in-law would pay for the abortion
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: because she knew I wasn't, my family didn't have the
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: money to afford one. I tried to tell her it
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: wasn't an option. She would not listen to me and
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: told me that the grownups were deciding. And then my
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: father-in-law stood up and told her, you're not killing my
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: grandson or my grandchild. You're not killing my grandchildren. And
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: then her new husband stood up and you don't talk
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: to my wife that way. And then my dad stood
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: up to get between them because they were both, all
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: three of these fuckers are over six feet or were
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: at the time. My dad stood up between them and
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: was like, well, clearly he does. And that's why he
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: divorced the bitch. So it was a great meeting, a
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: great meeting. And I wasn't allowed to talk. And they
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: decided for me that I was going to go to
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: counseling and we'd have an adoption. And I left the
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: meeting because if you're deciding my fate, why do I
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: need to sit here and listen to what your decision is?
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Like you decide it and I'll try to live with it.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: And you tell me what you've decided when we're done.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: And I couldn't live with what they decided. Like, and
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: I know, I know.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: The almost adoption, which is how I call it.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: The outline. Yeah. And then I put in parentheses.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: It gave me pause because it didn't seem like it
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: was that legal of an adoption.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: No, they had me interview people for a private adoption.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: There was no agency involved. There was no lawyer for me.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: It was just 16 or 17-year-old Amanda interviewing potential parents.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: And the culture in Havasu around my dad, there's a
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: lot of dirtbags. There's a lot of racist people. They
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: were very focused on how brown my husband tans in
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: the sun. Is he a spic? Their language, not mine.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: uh and like they drop little hints that they're racist
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: and okay well what if he is half hispanic and
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: i don't know it and i tell you this is
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: a hundred percent white baby and you don't love him
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: because he's got a little bit of brown in the
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: cream like it was awful and i just i wouldn't
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: make a decision and then my stepmother's co-worker had been
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: trying to adopt or have kids for like 12 years
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: and so She was chosen and they named my son
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: and they created a room for him. They took him
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: home from the hospital. So like I was told while
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: I was laboring and delivering and afterwards not to talk
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: to the hospital representatives or nurses or anybody about it,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: which I now know is just very predatory and illegal.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: But the focus was like so many young pregnant girls
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: just pass this off to someone else and then get
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: on with your life. And when we left the hospital,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: the nurse chastised me for how I'd put the car
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: seat in our car. And I told her, like, I
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: don't get to take him home anyways. It doesn't matter
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: if he's going home with that couple over there. And
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: she still went back inside. She didn't ask questions. It
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: was just like, oh, okay, well, that's even better then
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: because you shouldn't have this baby. And as someone else
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: walked away with my baby, my stepmom told me not
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: to cry. Because he was proof that I could have
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby. And I could
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: always have another child. But God meant for this baby
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: to go to this couple. Because they've waited such a
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: long time. And I just want to wring her fucking neck.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: How can you say that to somebody you've known her
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: whole life? Watching the very embodiment of their heart be
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: carried away by your wretched friend.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Who like.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: They knew they weren't nice people, but they're Christian and
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: they've got money and it'll be okay because they'll forgive
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: themselves when they talk to God.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: It blah blah.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: It it's such a story that needs to be studied
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: i mean honestly write a book i have so many
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: people who would read this memoir we could have writing
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: dates like i need the i need a publication I.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: Haven't ruled it out yet, but in the past, I
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: was very scared to put anything on super record or
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: even do a podcast like this. I have skirted around
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: it for a long time. But as people die or
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: get older and I realize I am so much more
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: powerful than they allowed me to see, I know I
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: could ruin the reputation of a whole town. And I
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: have chosen not to for all of these years. Um,
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: but man, the way Havasu reacted to me in April,
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: I just want to burn a bridge down. I can
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: start there.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Because I find that in 2026, it has all become
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: impossible to make homophobes, transphobes, racist, misogynist, name them. Um,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: believe that these are still issues. Right. And I don't
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: understand because we have a shit, a shit diaper wearing
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: president in office who uses slurs on Twitter, you know? Right.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: It's still Twitter, even if he wants to change the
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: name to X.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Correct. I, I, I don't understand how people can continue
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: to turn a blind eye that we there aren't a
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: lot of protections in place for women in general. And
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: then we add on layers like queer women, women of color,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: and then 17 year old girls who are living a
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: life of no choices and no advocacy or agency. And
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: to think that it doesn't happen in the good old USA, that's,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: you know, shit for other third world countries.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: The third world countries they say it all the time.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: All the time just to be like you're so lucky
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: here you're lucky right that um you even got to
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: go to the hospital to have your baby some women
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: are having babies in the woods and.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: You're lucky they didn't stone you to death when they
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: found out you put out to your boyfriend how dare
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: you have intimate relations with a fella.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: And misogyny is a worldwide problem, but we can't ignore
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: the fact that it is also an American problem.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: And my heart just aches at the ignorance of it all,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: that at no point do people want to hear it.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Do people want to go, well, or they want to
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: take instances like these and be like, well, that was
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: an outlier.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: And it's like, well, you deserved it because you had
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: a baby. What did you expect?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: What did you expect?
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: And 17 year olds don't know anything about anything.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: So, you know, you're lucky to be alive or any
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: And it's just like. Yeah, I've I've gotten to the
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: point where I'm so pissed off about the fact that
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Christianity makes women's.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Most important role. To give birth to children. Sons.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: And yet they refuse. To take care of us along
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: the way. They won't give us healthcare. They won't give
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: us daycare. They won't give us aftercare.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: Food while you're growing. So that you have a healthy
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: body reserve. To draw from.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Correct. Respect. And you know.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Speaking of TikTok. My TikTok algorithm. when not covered with
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Sam Reed doing sparkly, sparkly rock star body roles as
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: the vampire Lestat, has.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Moved away from.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: Perfection.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, perfection.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping if I say his name enough, he'll just
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: appear one day like Beetlejuice and sing to me the loneliness.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: You might have to wait a while.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: My algorithm has moved on from men weaponize food in
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: their households and call it like being a healthy growing
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: boy to men have womb envy. And that's why they
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: mistreat us the most when we're having their children.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Okay. I saw something that talked about how a woman
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: loses value when she has sex with a man and
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: a man is looked down on when he has sex
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: with a man. So clearly having sex with a man
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: is the problem here.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: And honestly, that math does check out. You're right.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: I was devalued for intimacy.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: It's almost like.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Men just being within your vicinity brings property value down.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: I mean almost okay so here's another biological fact i
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: learned randomly one day is that if the woman has
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: an orgasm during intimacy and the man owes she is
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: more likely to have a son if she came than
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: if you just finished yourself off and told her have
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: fun so.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: So it's a So it's also their fault when they're so,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: so mad.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: It's their fault that they don't have sons.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. When they're so, so mad that they were cursed
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: with daughters.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: It's all their fault.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: And that's the pregnancy. Like the pregnancy is just one
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: half of this story.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Because then you, how, so how long was the minimum
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: amount of days?
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Three.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Three. So they had your baby for three days.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: From the times that they had him. Until I was
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: told to sign paperwork. And the paperwork was done up
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: by I don't know who the fuck. What? I'm so cursing.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: The paperwork was done up by I don't know who.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: And their boss was supposed to notarize it. So she
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: came to my household where I lived to have me
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: sign my infant over to her employee from her other
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: employee's daughter. And bless her heart, Lainey and Havasu, the notary,
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: who was kind, took one look around and realized, oh,
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: this is really fucked up. And she walked out. She
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: was like, no, I don't think that I can perform
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: my services today. Amanda needs blah, blah, blah. And she
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: passed me some information on her way out the door.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: And she was very intent when she said it, like
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: eye to eye, look at me and understand what I'm
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: telling you. This ain't right type of info. And so
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: when Lainey walked out, And the couple left with my kid.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: I had a very frank conversation with my dad. And
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: it's one of the few times I had seen him
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: cry in adulthood. He was just like, I thought it
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: was a huge mistake, but you seemed set on it.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: And I was just like, Dad, you married an evil woman.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Evil.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: Which, I mean, after my wedding, my dad moved out
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: of the house and they divorced. He filed for divorce
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: on their daughter's birthday the next year.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Seemed appropriate.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: I found that out after he died. Yeah.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: But thank God for that notary. Because we talk about
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: how one person can't change the world. But one person
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: can look at a situation and go.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Hey, this is fucked.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Right? Right? Hey, this isn't okay. And you need me
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: to go forward. So I'm going to withdraw. Like if
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: she had just turned a blind eye or performed her job,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: shut up and put the fries in the bag, miss like,
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't have my son. I would have been pressured
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: to signing him away. I wouldn't have him. And I
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: wouldn't have had the right to fight for him back either. So,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: and then that led to our wedding day where again,
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: one person could have made the difference. The people at
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: the Mojave Superior Courthouse who watched my father put me
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: in a chokehold while his wife signed the paperwork should
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: have noticed that there is duress there. The bride is crying.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: She's a minor. She's crying. This ain't her mama. The
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: names don't match like anyone. But instead, like the judge
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: asked me before the ceremony if I wanted to include
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: the word obey in my vows. And I told him
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: I didn't even want to make the vows. I'm not
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: going to lie and say I'll obey the guy. Like
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: that is a line too much for me, man.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: So I guess the judge's number one clue that this
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: was a marriage made without consent was you saying, I
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: don't want to be here.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: I don't want to be here. I didn't dress for this.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I very foolishly thought like I'll show up. I'm the
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: only one there to advocate for myself. My mom had
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: joint legal custody with my dad. I had seen for
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: a number of years my stepmother forge other people's signatures.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: My mother was well aware of that. So she didn't travel.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: she that was the only way she could protect me
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: is to not attend because otherwise they'll sign your signature
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: and well you were there now you're lying you didn't
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: sign it so she didn't she didn't show up and
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: I didn't have any female relatives in the room that
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: loved me no female friends there it was literally just
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: like my husband and his mom and dad and stepdad
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: and brother and my stepmom and my dad and our son.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: They had my son before the ceremony, which is how
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: they got me to show up. And I thought, I
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: thought the court will defend me. Someone will notice this
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: is wrong and help me. And God, what a fool
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: I was. Like looking back on it, I should have
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: taken the baby and ran to my nearest relative in California.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: I should have gone to my stepmom's daddy in Redlands.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: and been like, grandpa, Fred, your daughter really screwed up. Help, help.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: But like, by then I'd been so beaten and segregated.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: I didn't see anyone as an option. I just, this
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: is what you're living in and you're going to survive it.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: And I foolishly believed in the American justice system. I
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: know better now. I've seen worse for other people. And, um,
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: That day was absolutely wretched. And at the end of it,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: my stepmother told my husband I was his problem now.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: And my in-laws told me not to resize the ring
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: because they'll get it back when we're old enough and
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: file for divorce. So which like why even give me
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: a ring? He could have married me by tying a
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: string on my finger and I would have been happy
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: if we were old enough and the day that we chose.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: But like. I didn't want. Yeah, I didn't want. And
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: that should have been enough. But like back to TikTok,
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: I'm told that, well, your dad had the right to
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: sign you over. You still have to consent. You still
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: have to consent.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: I so I was going to ask the follow up question,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: but I do believe that the ring sizing anecdote answers
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: it perfectly.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: So now he was 17, too, right?
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: He was. Yeah.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So now you're two 17 year olds married.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: With a baby. Yeah.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Now, how supportive were your parents during the raising of
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: your infant?
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Well, funny you should ask. Three days after we got married,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: my husband went off to boot camp and he turned
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: 18 during Hell Week. So for the first six weeks
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: of our marriage, I did not talk to my husband.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: And I still performed with the Lake Havasu City High
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: School Marching Band. And someone else's grandma watched my son
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: for me for the four hours a day I went
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: to high school. And someone else's mom helped me find
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: daycare that would take my infant when grandma couldn't watch
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: him anymore. And I couldn't trust my stepmother with my
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: child because she did not listen to my parenting and
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: she endangered him. There are pictures. And my dad was
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: named Muff, well known for his drinking and whatever else
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: he had going on in his life. And I couldn't
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: trust him with my infant. And my mother-in-law was not kind.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: So I.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: Spent... one day a week at her house. I'd spend
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: the night and then the next day she'd have like
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: four hours with my kid at her request. And I
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: still had to pay for daycare that day, but she
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: wasn't kind while I was staying at her house. And
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: I really just thought like eventually she's going to see
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: my nice personality and I'm not a drug addict like
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: my family and I'm not a hard drinker. And I'm
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: really just trying to figure it out without anyone to
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: guide me. And she'll be like a mom. And I mean,
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: kind of because my mom sucked. She was kind of
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: like them. We had a falling out when I was
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: still in high school and she held my infant son
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: and told me what a horrible person I was, that
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: I was going to turn out like my sister. She
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: said some disparaging things about my person and my family
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: and she just didn't. She didn't even know me, shouldn't
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: know me. So I didn't go over there without my
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: husband for the longest time. And that caused a lot
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: of issues. And then how supportive are they growing up?
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, not really. We moved to Japan and I
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: couldn't even ask questions on a message board without somebody
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: finding me and then chastising me for what I said
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: on a hobby message board while living in Japan in
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: the early 2000s like that. to call me and chastise
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: me in Japan in 2002 or 2003 cost 75 cents
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: a minute. It was expensive.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: It was expensive.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: And they still did it. And it just, it never
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: got better from there. Like once a year in the summer,
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: the kids would go home and visit. We didn't do
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: any major holidays with the family. And I only sent
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: the kids home to the grandparents to visit because so
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: many people talked about grandparent rights. And we kept being
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: told how moms are replaceable. moms are replaceable. You know,
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: Cody might get sick of you and he could find
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: a better wife. And, you know, first love doesn't have
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: to be your last love. So like once he and
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: I started comparing notes to, well, what do they tell
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: you when I'm not around versus what they tell me?
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: It really just, why do you want to go around
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: and be around people like that who are tearing you
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: down and telling you, Cody, control your dumb bitch wife.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: He has faced a lot of backlash for the things
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: that I say or the friends that I make. He
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: has had a lot of yelling phone calls in his direction.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: And the most they can tell him is control your
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: dumb bitch wife. And he's just like, nah, man, you
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: do it. You do it. I'm not going to. I
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: like her this way. You want her controlled. You try
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: to break that spirit because I'm not going to. Well,
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: because and I Again, I've only spoken to you and
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: not him. Maybe I'll meet him in Indy next month. Well,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: at the end of this month, but it's true. But
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: he's a victim in all of this, too. Absolutely. And
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: it really upsets me when people call him names and
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: they don't realize he was 17. Yeah, he's 17.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Well, and one of the things that we talked about
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: when we had our little pre record chat was the
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: military service of it all. That your in-laws and your
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: parents were more than OK to marry you to him
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: because it benefited his military career.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: Right. And his recruiter said he might face jail because
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: he said he didn't have a child when he did.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: But we didn't know the child existed when he signed
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: the paperwork.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: And I was very blunt about.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: About how predatory I find it to be with how
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: involved our military recruitment process is when it comes to
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: kids whose brains haven't fused all the way kids who
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: are looking at a high school graduation and high school
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: is one of the last safe places for a lot.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Of kids and and so.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: It's guys sitting at a table being like, hey, are
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: you scared? What happens June 1st when you no longer
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: get to have this safety net?
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Join.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: You got a wife and kid. Yeah.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Join my better.
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: He's motivated.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Join my safety net where maybe you'll get a skill
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: out of it or maybe harm will come to you.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: You know, it's a toss up.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: We could put you in housing that gives your kids
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: issues for life. Looking at you, Whiteman Air Force Base.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: I am looking at you. I bet your housing still sucks.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: And I, I mean, I have a big enough family
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: that I do know service members and things like that.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: And I would never want people to believe that my
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: views of how predatory that whole process is doesn't mean
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: that I don't understand why it's a lifeline.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: For people right but you can understand both sides yeah
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: but right.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: The nuance of it all in 2026 can you believe
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: the shades of gray the shakes of gray but also
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: it my next point is it's like well how sad
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: that that's one of the only lifelines for kids who
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: are struggling.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: There was no real help for us in that town.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: And it was made abundantly clear. You two got yourselves
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: into this mess and you chose to keep this mistake.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: You get to deal with the consequences. And then they
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: were just mean until I started making international news for
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: my product line. And suddenly it was like, oh, my God,
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: she's from Havasu. And now that I work with Unchained
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: at Last, they're like, no, she's not from here. No,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: we don't know what she's talking about.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Well, and my friends and I talk about it all
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: the time as horrendously unemployed people that life is going
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: to life no matter if you're a good person or
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: a bad person or smart person or a person who
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: struggled in school or, you know, you did everything that
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: your parents told you was the right thing to do.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: You did the exact opposite of everything your parents told.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: You what to do. Life is going to life.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: And We have such small, non-existent safety nets. in this
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: country that is so supposedly supposed to be the land
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: of the free home of the brave home of the
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: brave and they just keep us in a panic state yeah.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: Because you can't make plans you can't fight back if
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: you're always panicked and people who are panicking make poor
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: decisions for long-term goals We saw it a lot in
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: the military. People who just didn't have the forward thinking
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: for how this decision today might impact me next year.
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: And I don't know how many people we have privately
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: helped clean up their houses because you have let it
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: get too far and you're going to get your kids
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: taken away. Like it's just the quiet safety net of
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: I have struggled. I've been in the depression pit. And
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: sometimes you just need someone to show up and wash
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: your fucking dishes. So that's what we did. Or like privately,
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: you need $ 100 so you keep your lights on and
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: you don't have to pay that reconnection fee. Pay it
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: forward next time because how did we make it this far?
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: Occasionally someone's really kind to us.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: And then another back to the cult of it all.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Another abuse of the power of the country is that
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: we have such an individualistic mindset. And then they just
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: tell you, well, have you ever considered turning to church
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: when it comes to free child care and food and
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: helping people in need? And it's like, but that's a problem, too,
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: because I shouldn't have to pretend to believe in God
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: to get aid.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: I shouldn't have to say I believe in Santa to
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: get a Christmas present.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, honestly.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: Either Santa gives or Santa does not, but I shouldn't
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: have to sit there. I believe, I believe. Like, we're
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: not bringing fairies back to life here.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: No.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: It's deeply frustrating to see so many people just struggle
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: and feel powerless to do something about it. When I
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: had a pinback button line, I used it to... I guess,
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: work through my own trauma. We've talked about the misogyny
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: of it all. When Cody and I were much younger
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: and I didn't have any job skills, I couldn't obtain any.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: I wasn't allowed to work in Japan per the agreement
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: the U.S.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: Has with Japan.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: And I didn't have the right paperwork for it. And
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: it was the early years of the Internet. So I
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: couldn't make a living on there like I did later.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: And I just... Kept trying because so many people said
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: I was a burden to my husband and he should
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: leave me and she doesn't have a job and she
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: doesn't have job skills. And then to me, they'd be like,
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: you shouldn't get a job and you shouldn't go to college.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: You need to focus on your husband and raising those children.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: And we both got told such different messages. And when
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: I started the pinback button line, I just kind of
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: blew all of the things that people said to me
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: or that I was feeling stuck with. and powerless to
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: talk with my own voice or my own space on
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: the internet at the time. I just stop it now.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: It's a merchandise. It's not about you. It's just a
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: random word on a pinback button. You swear to God,
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: don't stick your dick in crazy isn't about you.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: It's just not about you. It's just a fun thing
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: to say.
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: I mean.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: That one I made for a specific person that I
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: was acquaintances with. And then my dad called to chastise
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: me for talking about his personal life and turning it
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: into product lines because his wife was really upset at
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: me for calling her crazy and making a product that
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: says don't stick your dick in crazy. And I was like, Dad,
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: I had no idea that you two were having marriage issues.
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: No one talks to me. And this is for this
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: other guy. But now I know.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: But now I know. Also, like, again, the.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: Because that in itself is part of the abuse control
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: of people who exhibit narcissism. And because I don't want
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: to call anyone a narcissist. Now we say people who
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: exhibit narcissistic tendencies. But it's one of those things where
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: it's like, I'm not even. It's like being a teenager
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: all over again and being like, oh, my God. someone
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: might find my journals and now I don't get dinner
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: tonight because I wrote down how much I hated you
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: on July 15th, 2003.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: I don't get to go to this event anymore. No
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: Gen Con for Amanda.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: No Gen Con for Amanda.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: And it's, it's one of those things where it's like,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: I feel such an onus and such an ownership of
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: my own experience that for you to take time and
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: energy to call me on the phone, To be like,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: why would you say that you experienced that? And my
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: answer to be, well, because I did.
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, some working through some shit. Thank you for
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: handing it to me.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: I did experience it that way.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Do you want to talk it through and see what
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: we can do about that in the future?
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: And then go, no, I just don't want you to
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: talk about it.
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: And that's the part I get hung up on. Like,
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: if all of this was OK to do to me,
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: then it should be OK for me to talk about
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: at any point in time. And back to Japan in
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: the early 2000s, when I asked for help, other military
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: spouses told me not to talk about it because I'd
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: blow up my whole life if it got out that
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: he and I knew our wedding day was obtained with
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: my stepmom doing something fraudulent. And I was like, I
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: am the victim here. But then other people told me
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: one way to ratify voidable marriage is to acknowledge a
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: crime occurred. And to say something like acknowledging our anniversary.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: So he asks me for another year of marriage every
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: year of marriage because we didn't get to consent to
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: the first year of marriage. And it's this cute little
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: tradition I talk about. But when people go even just
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: a little bit deeper to find out, well, why do
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: you do this? I'm happy to tell them we weren't
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: allowed to say no on our wedding day. And here's
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: how we take back agency and control. And here's how
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: my husband bagged somebody who other people call a raging thundercunt.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: And feminazi like he can deal with all my ish
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: because he understands where it comes from and the lack
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: of consent. And even with both of us being 17
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: and me being younger than him, I'm still shit on
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: for having our baby, raising our baby, being a mother.
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: And he's treated like he's a goddamn superhero. You stuck around.
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: You parented your kid at all. You stayed with Amanda like, oh, wow,
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: he's a god and she's still a bitch.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Can i actually ask you what radicalized you besides the
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: wedding and the giving birth because i i know logically
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: that there are a lot of women who would have
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: gone through something like you went and they would bleach
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: blonde bleach dye their hair and scream i love trump
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: trump is going to feed my baby and and okay
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: and i'm gonna learn how to make sourdough oh.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: I did learn how to make sourdough because it is
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: the superior bread choice. But in a like, fuck the
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: system kind of way, not a not a trad wife.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: We don't vaccinate kind of way. I think what radicalized
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: me was losing my mom so young because she lost
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: custody before I was in kindergarten. And before she lost custody,
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: I lived with my dad's brother and his wife. His
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: wife is an Adventist doctor at the Loma Linda. She
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: was at the Loma Linda Medical Center. And the family
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: was very, very Adventist. And prior to living with them,
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: I had hung out at a muffler shop in Redlands.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: And I just couldn't hold Grandpa Fred's muffler shop where
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: I met the voice of Woody Woodpecker. I met Walter
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: Lance while he was still alive. And he Woody Woodpecker
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: laughed for me. I couldn't see that as evil. Like
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: the Adventists were telling me that cartoons were bad and
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: these people are evil and they're getting in your I'd
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: fucking met Walter and he was the nicest guy. So
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: what do you mean they're evil? And then losing my
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: mom and finding out that like there were 80 something
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: from what I'm told, there's 80 something witness statements saying
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: why she was a bad mother. And Looking back on
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: what people told me over the years now, I'm like, oh,
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: you guys just colluded to get her rights taken away.
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: But I couldn't consolidate the two lives my dad was
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: having me around, the Seventh-day Adventist extremism of his family
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: and then Grandpa Fred at the muffler shop because his
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: slogan was the original no muff too tough. And that's
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: where dad got his muff label from. And grandpa's, I
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: don't even know what to call them, minions, his muffler guys,
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: like they were the roughest, tumblest dude, all these tattoos
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: and grease balls to boot. And then they'd get to
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: me and they'd just be so dainty picking me up
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: and they'd answer all my questions about why do you
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: have this scar? What does this tattoo mean? Why does
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: this make this sound? Can we hide this thing that
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: I'm told to throw away and I don't want to? Like,
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: they were just so great. And then the Adventists would
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: be like, those guys are dirtbags because they drink a
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: beer after work. And it just, I think the training
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: never got to me because I had already met the
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: people they told me to fear. And then some of
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: the Adventists were like, Mr. Rogers is bad to watch. Mr.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: Rogers.
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: People. is bad for you. PBS, like, okay, guys, sure.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: So I wasn't real good at falling in line anyways.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: And then I got to go to public school for
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: three years from first to third grade before they put
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: me in Adventist private school. And that exposure to public education,
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: the exposure to non-white people, the constant exposure to the
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: hot rod classic car community of Southern California. Like, no,
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: I just I couldn't get into the eugenics of it
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: all because Seventh Day Adventist doctrine is very, very different.
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: And at the time when I was growing up, they
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: would talk about you can't mix. You can't have half
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: half children because they have more health issues. And that's
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: why we're concerned. It's not because we're racist. It's because
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: your future babies might have issues getting medical care. And no,
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: it's all just rooted in racism. And my bestie was
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: black and I just. The world around me was very
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: eye opening and they never got their foot holden. And
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: then my mom was when I saw her, she was.
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: a bat out of hell in her black Camaro.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: So I, I was one time asked by a friend
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: who had also been bad at being Catholic growing up.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: Like we had, we had talked about it as like
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: grownups and he go, and he said, he goes, you know,
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: I would just go to Christmas mass every year and
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: just be like, this is nuts. They're all worshiping a
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: baby and, They're all worshiping this like accidental pregnancy.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: And then I went to college. Of a teenager.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: And I would go to college and be like, yeah,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Mary of Nazareth. She like literally pulled off the world's
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: greatest con probably to prevent herself from being stoned to death.
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: She would have been at her age and her thing
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: in society. But like Joseph was a downgrade for Mary
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: in social class from what I've been told.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: I was like, so instead she was like, well, the
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: angel did it. And how are you going to argue
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: with the angel doing it?
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: And, but he asked me when.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: It all started to click for me that it all
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: didn't make sense. And I said, I was like, one
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: time I came home from like spending a day with
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: a friend and then It must have been the one
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: time that like something from we weren't even that great
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: at going to church. But like it must we must
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: have just been to church or something. And I just went, hey, mom.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: The key to heaven is believing in Jesus as our savior.
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: And she went, yes. And I went, but Jewish people
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: don't believe that Jesus is our savior. They believe in God,
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: but not the Jesus part.
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: Jesus.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: And she go, yeah, I go.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: So does that mean my Jewish friends are going to hell?
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: And she went, yes. She couldn't answer.
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: Right, because how do you tell a kid?
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you tell a kid that another seven-year-old
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: is going to hell? And by the way, people do. Like,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that, like, people don't, but people do.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: And I just watched the, like, cogs turn and her
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: not being able to do.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: And that's when I went, because this is all made up.
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: It's all made up.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: It does not make sense that good people go to
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: hell just because they didn't ever.
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: They didn't know God.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: They didn't know Jesus. Oh, right.
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: Because it's the Jesus specifically.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I was like, I was like, that's what
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: I knew. I was like, oh, because this is all
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: made up. I just went from there.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: I go, and then once you're like little brain that
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: I fall somewhere on a spectrum. So once your little
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: spectrum brain goes, oh, all of this is made up.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: I tell people all the time, I get myself more
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: in trouble for not understanding when I should cool it or.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Lie to get myself out of it.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: Right. Do I have to lie so I can eat
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: this donut and have your Sunday morning coffee?
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Because in my head, I'm just like, Well, surely everyone
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: else sees it logically.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: Surely the other kids know you don't actually believe in Santa,
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: do you?
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, so before my brain can even go, Natalie,
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: preserve yourself, my mouth goes, but we all know this.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: Nope, we sure don't.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: No, we sure don't.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: I made a similar error with Cherokee Princess Rose Grandmothers.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: Because most of those are not indigenous women. Certainly not Cherokee.
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: And it's just all rooted back to racism and trying
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: to pass off someone as a more proper Indian. I
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: said that one time and someone started talking about their
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: Cherokee princess, Grandma Rose. I thought they were fucking with me.
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: And no, they legitimately thought their grandma was a Cherokee
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: princess and her name was Rose. And I was like, oh, okay. Okay.
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: And then what do you do? Keep arguing with them? No,
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: your grandma is not a Cherokee princess.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm not.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: They don't have those.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: I've sworn off arguing with people anymore who just want
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: to be ignorant.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: I'm like, it's fine.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: I argue when it's details about my own personal story,
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: which I have done more and more because Arizona House
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: Bill 4125 would have raised the minimum age for marriage
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: to 18 with no exceptions. And when I started working
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: with Unchained, they were like, hey, can you help you know,
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: social media this and get us some eyes on whatever
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: you have ties to the community still all good. And
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: it's not all good. You talk about it and they're like,
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: that doesn't happen here. And that was 26 years ago.
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: And you deserved it because you'd had that baby. And well,
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: what do you mean your dad was muff? What do
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: you mean your mother-in-law still works at the golf course?
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: What do you mean your in-laws grandparents were flown out
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: by McCulloch? Like, When they learn I have ties to
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: the town, there are ties to the community. A lot
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: of people stop talking. Yeah. Looking at you, Annette, from
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: Honda in Kingman, Arizona, because Heidi from Honda Corporate and
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: I had a great conversation about some of my TikTok
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: comments left by small businesses and Honda out in Kingman, Arizona, which.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: I did not sign anything that said I would not
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: talk about this. And I am still grievously upset by
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: the way I was treated by an employee using an
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: official account.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: I will also say that to me, the blatant denial
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: of it happening.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: My again, my Natalie tried to preserve yourself. No, I'll
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: just say this brain wants to go. OK, cool, then.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: you should be okay with this law being passed because
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: it doesn't happen anyways.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: Right. So it doesn't matter if nobody J's walk, J walks.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: It doesn't matter if we have a J walking, you
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: can't J walk. Like, yeah, it'll do nothing.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Right. It'll do nothing. It's a, it's a moot point,
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: but on the one chance that someone is looking at
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: their 16 year old daughter waiting for a reason to
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: kick her out of the house. Right.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: If they're going to marry her off against her will
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: and say, good luck.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: Did you know children can't get divorced? Speaking of preserving
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: your mind, you have to have someone you can go
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: back to. Do you think someone whose parents married her
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: off are going to take her in when there's problems?
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: Like you can't go to a domestic violence shelter. I
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: have heard from so many women because 86% of child
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: marriage survivors are women. I've heard from so many women,
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: horrible stories. And I appreciate that they understand my husband's
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: also a victim. He's also a survivor and they don't
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: shit on him for not speaking up. Like I can
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: do what I do because he, he has a quieter
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: life and he makes a steady paycheck. And he just,
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: if I bite off more than I can chew on
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: the internet, he just kisses my forehead and tells me
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: to try better next time.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: It's okay, babe. This happens.
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: Like it's perfect. But maybe someday you made a joke
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: about meeting him at Gen Con. But in my early
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: years of conventioning, there are people who took over a
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: decade to finally meet my husband. And they used to
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: call him Remington Steele because nobody had actually met the guy.
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: They thought he was made up and that I was
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: just like storytelling to get Internet points or whatever. But
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: I was so protective that, no, you can't meet my husband.
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: You can't meet my kids.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: But yeah, in my head, I'm like, OK, cool. Then
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: let's pass the law because it doesn't matter. Let's pass
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: the law. But the law didn't pass, right? No, it failed.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: So part of why I kept mentioning Havasu is House
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: Representative Leo Biasucci was born and raised and lives in Havasu.
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: And he is the representative for the area. And we
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: were in the Lake Havasu City High School marching band together.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: He graduated with my husband, Cody. They were both raised Catholic.
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: They went through whatever that Catholic confirmation class stuff is like.
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: We know him vaguely. I wouldn't say we're friends as adults,
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: but like we knew him in high school and I
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: would expect his support as the father of a little
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: girl himself. Now, I would expect him to support a
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: bill that at a minimum would keep his town's name
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: out of the news because some bitch is out here
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: talking about her forced marriage in Havasu when she was
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: 17 and it's not looking good for the town. But no,
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: he didn't sign it and the bill didn't pass and
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: it's mostly Democrats and one Republican that even pushed it forward.
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: Last I looked, there's 7,677 child marriages on record, but
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: there's like whole polygamous towns that wouldn't have put their
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: child marriages on record. So these are just the legally
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: obtained ones and filed. And of those, there's over 3,900
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: that are at a spousal age difference that should have
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: constituted a sex crime. And it's only not a sex
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: crime because it's okay if she's your wife. And the
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: minimum age for marriage in Arizona when I married was zero,
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: but they raised it to 16 in 2018, I think. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: It's hell.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: It's hell.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: Well, and to bring up the marital age gaps, the
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: lengths that this country will go to protect men who
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: are predators, because that's what I think it is.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: When I think of why wouldn't that law pass? And
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: it's because if you pass the law, you're almost saying
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: that it was a problem to begin with. And if
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: you're saying it's a problem to begin with, then you
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: have to acknowledge that your state has predators, which every
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: state has predators.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: They're everywhere. That's what we've learned. We used to have.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: They are everywhere.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: They are everywhere.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: We used to have websites that were dedicated to finding
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: their addresses. So you knew they were your neighbors.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: So then you have to acknowledge and no one wants
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: to acknowledge when they personally know a predator. And it
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: all comes down to Christianity shame. I'm just going to
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: say it like we can't do anything because of shame.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: You can't admit there's a problem because that's shameful.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'm tired of it personally.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: I am tired of being phone called for what I
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: say to people when they ask like.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: There's no shame here for me. There is shame involved
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: in the situation. But again, Cody and I were 17.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: And I don't think that the shame lies with us.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I and I do. I don't even know
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: how to say this without like coming off really condescending.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: And again, it is because now I have grown to
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: now that I know you, I have grown to care
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: about you and Cody as people.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: I do commend you for taking all of that ball
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: of trauma and being like, and we made it work.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: And we ended up meeting nice people at the end
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: of the day who could stay married and raised our
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: kids knowing the truth.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: Because I'm assuming you've had a lot of tough conversations
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: with your children.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God. So many tough conversations. I think the
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: worst was fifth grade when our oldest did that report
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: on like your family dynamic. and which grandparents are. And
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: he filled out his grandma's and I had to tell
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: him that, yeah, Nana, Nana, Dina is not your Nana.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: That's my stepmom. You've met my mom once and she
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: did these bad things while she was watching you. And
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: so she never got to meet your brother. And then
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: he asked how we picked his name because that was
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: one of the questions on The form. And I had
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: to have a very awkward conversation with my fifth grader
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: that mommy was so young when she was pregnant and
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: I wasn't allowed to name you. And here's how they
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: picked your name. And he was just.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: Devastated.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: Like, what do you mean? They didn't let you name me.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: What do you mean? They tried to take me away.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: What do you mean? They said, because you were so young,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: you couldn't, but haven't they seen you with me? You're
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: in the classroom all the time and you do blah, blah, blah.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: And like Cody and I were really active, engaged parents
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: in part because we were so judged. And so you
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: have to perform differently if you think that there's a poor,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: poor performance might lead to your children being taken from you.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: So that was, One of the tougher conversations of telling
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: my son, I didn't name you. We got to name
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: your brother. And here's why we picked his name the
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: way that we did. And they were just like, oh, well,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: that's a gut punch.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, truly, and I hope you know this
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: every day. Truly, you're a hero in a success story.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: Because think of how it could have gone. It could
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: have gone. You're still in that small town. You're instead
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: of having really open and difficult conversations with your kids,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: you're just letting trauma continue and not break a cycle.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: You're raising sons that understand what consequences misogyny has in
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: the world and how that is both global, local, and personal.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: And honestly, like, because it, it does, it, I mean,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: we know we're on TikTok. We know what trad wives are.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: It goes so... I've watched Big Love. It goes so differently.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: It does. I think we... really lucked out that we
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: became a military family because it gave us the access
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: to leave and meet more of the world. Living in
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: Japan at 19 fundamentally changed me as a human. The
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: hospitality of strangers who couldn't speak my language and I
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: couldn't speak theirs, but somehow we could make connection like,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: It was nice. It was my first therapy. I saw
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: a real therapist who helped military people and was like,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: you're too fucked up for my training, but here's how
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: you get over your food issues and I'll help you
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: learn how to touch your own elbow and then we'll
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: get you some real help.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: It was great.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: I think Japan fundamentally changed things, not just because we
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: were allowed to see new stuff, but we were far
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: away from anybody who could really do anything to influence us.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: And then it just gave us the motivation to keep
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: staying away from family. I don't know that military life
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: was great for us overall, but it was a great
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: get out of jail free card. And on the road
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: to something else, my husband works for, I call him
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: a Death Star Company because you know you're working for
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: not a great corporation, but The insurance is really nice
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: and I got a lot of health issues from growing
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: up in a difficult environment and his pay is nice
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: so that I can shit talk with you while I'm
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: looking for my next pivot in life. Like all my
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: work with Unchained at Last is it's with alongside I'm unpaid.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: I do it as a passion project, which is the
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: worst kind of project for other people because it means
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: that I just won't stop. This is just funsies for me.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: And so Every day when I wake up and decide
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: I'm going to get on the internet and talk about
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: this shit one more time, it's just me choosing a
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: different path going forward. Like, no, you guys no longer
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: get to tell people I was a willing bride. You
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: don't get to use our long lasting marriage to justify
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: the practice staying legal. You don't get to say we
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: turned out fine. We are fine now, him and I,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: because so many kind people gave me knowledge or help
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: along the way. But If we had stayed where they
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: wanted us to, we wouldn't have been fine. It wouldn't
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: have turned out fine. We lucked out. He took a
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: lot of college classes with me. We were just talking
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: about his marriage and family class he took when we
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 3: were in our 20s and his race class and gender
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: class he took when we were in our 20s and
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: the books we used to read about parenting so that
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: we didn't make the same mistakes our parents did and whatever.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: He was kind of an asshole for a little bit
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: about what do you do all day? And then I
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: had our youngest son. And about six weeks after I
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: had our youngest, my best friend died of meningitis. And
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: I left Japan to Hawaii. And Cody got to be
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: alone with the kids for like two weeks, maybe. By
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: the time I came back, he had such a changed attitude.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: He was grateful to go to work every day instead
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: of stay home with the kids. And he just he
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: changed when he'd come back from work every day. He'd
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: be like, here, let me take the baby. Why don't
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: you go take a shower by yourself? Have you peed
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: by yourself today? Can I make you some food? oh
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: don't worry about the toys on the floor the boys
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: and I will pick them up later like it was
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 3: it was different I hate that a death led to
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: that difference for us but I'm glad he could react
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: that way and I think that's a big point to
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: why we survived is we did see it as like
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: a group project it's us against whoever and it's worked
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: out pretty well so far although in 2022 I did
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: ask him for a divorce and he laughed at me
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: and asked who who got in my head, who's been
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: saying what to you this time.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: And I was just like, I'm a burden. Endometriosis is
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 4: never going away. What if I never get a real
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: job again? What if I can't do blah, blah, blah.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 4: And he was just like, okay. But again, which one
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: of my family members got in your head? Because it's
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: not from nowhere. And it was my family that time.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: Just my dad's people, the Adventism coming back to haunt me.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 4: When my mom died that year, they took it as
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: an opportunity to bring me back in. Because you're never out.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 4: Even if you're never a joiner like me. Because I
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: never engaged in the foot fetish practice. They've got some
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: weird rituals.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: Even if you're never a joiner, you are still you're
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: on the rolls and they'll still send the locals to
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: come help you find Jesus. And the shepherd doesn't give
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: up on one lost lamb just because they fled to
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: the hills. Hunt them down like you're the fucking Terminator.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: Bring them back to the fold. It's weird. Like to
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: think that we moved and nobody knew my address and
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: still have FedEx things show up with sympathy notes or
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: they sent my Bible one year. Um, that one really
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: hurt my feelings because it was the, the Bible I'd
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: been hit with so much as a kid, like literally
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: hit with and forced to read when I, I did
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: something when I was 10 and my punishment was to
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: read the entire Bible and I wasn't allowed to read
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: anything else until I did it. Um, and it took
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: a while and that's not something a 10 year old
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: should read on their own, but it, you'd asked earlier
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: what led to my, how I am. And that was
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: a part of it too. Like grandpa Fred was a
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: big part of giving me the gumption, but being forced
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: to read that slop with no interpretation from anybody. Now,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: do you know how many little girls get raped in
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: that book? It's not good.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: No, it's not. It's tough. No.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: Well, so we're towards the end and I think you
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: have a sign off thing.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. You were reading my mind. Yeah.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: I've been keeping an eye on the time because we
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: said like an hour and a half and I'm like, okay,
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: you've hit all your, well, most of your talking points about,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: you know, college guest speaking and gay straight alliances.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: Well, if you had to sum it all up in
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: a lesson to pass on into a phrase that we
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: could stitch on a pillow or make an internet meme
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: out of, What do you think is your legacy lesson
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: for everyone?
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: I think my legacy lesson is something I was talking
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: to my friend about earlier before I chatted with you.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: And I was trying to figure this out. She told
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: me that the phrase she hears most often now before
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: I get this look on my face and I just
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: take on life is eat my muff. Because she knows
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: my dad is dead and cremated and in a jar
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: and his name was muff. And that's just a, I
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: guess my outlook on life is you are always going
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: to have people who tell you you're not good enough
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: or you're not strong enough or you're not allowed to.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: And who are they to decide their made up rules
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: are applicable to you? You can just carry on with
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: what you want to do. And when it's too much,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: you can tell a bitch to eat your muff or
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: whatever is appropriate for your situation. Like however you say that.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: But I mean, that one is just, Right there for Amanda.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: Eat my musk. I'm going to do it anyways.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: Watch me.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: I was really motivated when my Havasu hecklers said some
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: things in April and it led me to you and
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: this podcast interview. I know it'll lead to more podcast
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: interviews and It's going to be all good things because
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: I don't keep my mouth shut. And the people who
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: like my personality find me when I sparkle. And you
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: can't sparkle if you keep hiding your light under a bushel.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: To steal my Adventist upbringing. This little light of mine.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: This little light of mine. And if you had to.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: I'm going to burn a bridge down with it.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: And if you had to take all of it.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: And turn it back outwards and send some good energy
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: back into the universe. What would you like to manifest
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: for all of us going forward?
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: I would like to manifest that everyone on their wedding
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: day wants to be there.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: I would hope that on what is billed as the
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 3: happiest day of your life, you want to be there. So.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: On that note, if you agree with me and you
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: support ending child marriage in America, your local politician wants
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: to hear from you.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Amanda, this has been great.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you in but two weeks
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: at an information booth as I sling bracelets and throw
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: dice at you.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: And I will sling information and piping hot tea about
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: the convention. It's my very favorite. I have the best time.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: I have the best time. Yeah. Do you have anything
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: to plug your TikTok account?
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: I'm going to take the opportunity to unplug my favorite
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: organization or to plug my favorite organization I work with,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: Unchained at Last. My own TikTok is Geek Details and
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: my website is Geek Details. One day I will get
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: back to posting things on my website more regularly, but
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: I can be found most often at TikTok. Feel free
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: to reach out, chatter. I'm mostly friendly if you are.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: And tolerators, you know the drill on our end.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: It's men I've tolerated pod on Instagram, NatalieK124 on Instagram
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: and TikTok. So all the men I've tolerated before is
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: on YouTube and Patreon. If Patreon makes you go, because
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: you might have to spend money on it, don't worry.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: There is a free tier with all of our blogs.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: And also, if you're trying to get away from meta
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: and social media because you need a break or because
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: of AI or because of them stealing all of our information.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: So many reasons.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: So many reasons.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: I am repurposing anything I would put on social media
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: on Patreon too. So it's a great way for all
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: of us to stay in contact. And Amanda, thank you
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: so much once again.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Natalie, for having me. I really enjoyed chatting
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: with you.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: I really enjoyed chatting with you and you're always invited back.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: It can be about your marriage or truly anything else.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 3: I've got so much to say.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And we all do.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: And remember, tolerators, you don't have to smile through anything
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: you're tolerating. including being a 17-year-old who's scared as fuck
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: at all of these adults that are forcing you into
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: something that you're pretty sure is illegal, is definitely abusive,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: and most certainly should not be happening.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: Smiles are for joy.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: Smiles are for joy, like this podcast.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you.