Latest / Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour / When Childhood Enters Love. What could possibly go wrong?

Transcript

When Childhood Enters Love. What could possibly go wrong? · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is Kim Lee, Jardin, adolescent psychotherapist, and what to bring you the next episode in the series The Avoidant Parent and particularly the effects upon their children.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, entitled When Childhood Enters the Relationship, what I want to try and explain is how the consequences of avoidant parenting get played out in later life.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because when we enter an adult relationship, we don't do it alone.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: We bring with us what we learned about closeness, dependency, conflict, and trust.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we bring expectations about what other people will do when we need them.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We bring ways of protecting ourselves from disappointment.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we bring what we referred to formerly as the internal working model which will have formed within our earliest relationships.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in the previous episode, I described the internal working model as a kind of prediction system.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: It tells us largely outside conscious awareness whether people are likely to be available, whether our needs will be tolerated, and whether or not we are worthy of care.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when I say largely outside of conscious awareness, what I mean is that we are not necessarily thinking about outcomes.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're not necessarily thinking about predictive elements in the relationship.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it nonetheless, just because we're not consciously thinking them, it can nonetheless find expression through our behavior and a kind of subjective apprehension, uh sort of subjective way in which we make sense of the other person's behavior or indeed the way we see ourselves.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I say largely outside of conscious awareness.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are times when we are consciously aware, probably because of consequences, when patterns of behavior become repeated and the person does become aware.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I always mess things up?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it I always choose the wrong ones?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it that, and so on and so forth.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And in a way, those aren't those things aren't necessarily asked those questions.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're more like statements.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: But then there is conscious awareness, but that's the beginning potentially of actually understanding and changing.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: But so these expectations that were formed in childhood don't they don't stay confined to childhood.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they enter friendships, intimate relationships, and eventually parenting.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the adult who grew up with an avoidant parent may consciously want something entirely different.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: They may say, I'll never treat somebody uh in the same way as my parent treated me.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I want a relationship in which people communicate.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I want closeness, honesty, and affection.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Intentions are genuine, but conscious intention and unconscious expectation don't always agree.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the person may want emotional availability while expecting emotional abandonment.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: They may want intimacy while experiencing dependency as dangerous.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: They may want honest communication but become overwhelmed when disagreement makes the relationship feel uncertain.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: The result is often a kind of approach and retreat pattern.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the person moves towards what they think of as closeness, but it begins to feel exposing and they then withdraw.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or they pursue somebody who is already withdrawing from them.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they do both.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the child who learned not to need may become an adult who appears fiercely independent.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: They solve problems alone, they rarely ask for reassurance, they dislike relying upon other people and may feel uncomfortable when someone tries to care for them.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh curiously, what they present is the exact opposite of the part of them that wants to be cared for.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, from the outside, this can initially appear attractive because they seem strong, calm, maybe undemanding.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: A partner may admire their independence, they might regard them as resilient and as people who are adaptable.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: But as the relationship deepens, the partner begins to discover that there is very little emotional access.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when something difficult happens, the avoidant adult retreats.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: They may become busy, silent, practical, they may discuss what happened without revealing how it affected them.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: When when the partner asks what they feel, they may say, I don't know, it's not a big deal, there's nothing to talk about, or I just need some space, or space can, of course, be healthy.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: But the difficulty arises when state when space becomes the only available response.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so it in fact what it is is distance.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that that that space, so-called, becomes a means of self-protection.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: But actually the effect upon the other person can be quite devastating, particularly if it's a frequent pattern, because it then means, well, I can't approach this subject or I can't approach that subject because I'll get the dreaded space routine.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: But and the other thing is the conversation isn't resumed.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or if it is, it can be used in a kind of retaliatory way.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Something that happened ages ago may very well be used in evidence, even though the event may be something which was seemingly insignificant, for which the other party has explained, apologized, but somehow, you know, it remains unresolved.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh such people may say things like, I don't bear grudges.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, of course you don't.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, the avoidant adult experiences the sort of reduction of emotional pressure that comes about from talking is a kind of resolution.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: But the partner experiences it as abandonment.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the pattern from childhood has therefore entered the relationship, the adult relationship.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: When emotion becomes tense, connection is interrupted.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: The adult may also struggle to receive kindness.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a partner remembers something important, offers practical help, or gives thoughtful support.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than openly acknowledging its significant, the avoidant adult minimizes it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: They may offer a brief thank you and move quickly on.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: They might not even say thank you.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds weird.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: How could that possibly be?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: But but it is the case it is the case that there are some avoidants who just do not acknowledge what's been done for them.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when that happens, obviously it leaves the other p person feeling very wounded.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why so many people say I've had enough of this.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they will fail to reciprocate or even appear irritated by the other person's intention.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: It may seem like selfishness, but I don't think it's a very good word.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: It can sort of reflect the old difficulty with emotional exposure to receive care is to acknowledge need, to express gratitude is to admit that another person has reached you.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it confirms that the relationship matters and the other person has the power to affect you.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so for somebody whose internal working model equates dependency with danger, this can feel deeply difficult.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: They reduce the meaning of kindness so that they don't have to feel vulnerable in response to it or in some way obligated.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the partner experiences something very, very different.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: They feel unseen.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Their care appears to disappear into an emotional void.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: They may initially respond by giving more.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: They become increasingly thoughtful, patient, and accommodating, hoping that sufficient care will eventually create reciprocity.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: But in time they begin to recognize an incredibly painful imbalance.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: One person is protecting themselves from vulnerability, the other is becoming emotionally depleted.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: The adult child doesn't always repeat the same avoidant parent position.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Some take up a kind of different role, the opposite role.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: It might become the pursuer.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Having spent childhood trying to reach an unavailable parent, they continue trying to reach unavailable people.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: They may feel especially attracted to somebody who is reserved, abusive, or difficult to know.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: The uncertainty creates a familiar intensity.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: They wait for messages, they analyze small changes in tone.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: They work hard to become indispensable.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: They interpret occasional moments of closeness as evidence that the relationship is finally changing.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: When the other person withdraws, they increase their efforts.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: They explain more, give more, and so it goes on.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, the more the other withdraws, the more urgently the first pursues.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Both feel controlled by the other.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: The pursuer says, if you would only talk to me, I would calm down.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: The avoidant partner says, if you would only calm down, I could talk to you.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Neither feel safe enough to move first.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the adult who once occupied the compliant child position may be especially vulnerable to becoming the overfunctioning parent.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: They anticipate needs, organize family life, and carry emotional responsibility for everybody.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: They may appear generous and capable, but may find it absolutely impossible to say, I need something from you.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: I remember somebody describing someone who didn't say I need someone, something from you.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: They said, I need you to do a job for me.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: How demeaning.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, it it it kind of goes with the territory.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: So what we're talking about is a situation where disappointment is is there in in in both parties.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: For one person it's the fear of disappointment, that's the avoidance.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: For the other, it's living with constant disappointment.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually, I there's something I say you cannot be disappointed unless you have expectations.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because when we're disappointed, it's because we have an expectation.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it would be nice to it would be nice to say, well, I I don't have expectations, therefore I won't get disappointed.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: But the truth is we're encouraged to have expectations.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: But then what happens is in fact, it is not that we are frequently disappointed, it is the fact that the other person is a disappointment.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's what they do, they disappoint, uh, they disconnect.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Resentment accumulates beneath all of this experience.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and in a in a sense that that has to be an outcome.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, interestingly, the adult who occupied the angry child position may carry a different strategy into relationships.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: They may experience ordinary separateness as rejection, a delayed reply, a change of plan, or a partner's need for privacy can activate a much older fear of being ignored.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And the response may seem disproportionate to the present event.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because it doesn't belong to the present.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: The person demands reassurance, their accused pursue or threaten to end the relationship.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: They may say, if you cared, you would know what I need.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: You always leave me, you're exactly like everybody else.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Their anger may be an attempt to force contact.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: But the intensity of that attempt may drive the other person away because apparently it confirms the original expectation.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how the uh internal working model can become self-reimport reinforcing.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the person expects abandonment and then they respond to that expectation in ways which place the relationship under enormous pressure.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when the relationship falters, the outcome is proof.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I knew people couldn't be trusted.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Again, understanding this process doesn't excuse controlling, threatening, violent behavior.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Adult vulnerability doesn't give somebody the right to frighten, coerce, or harm a partner.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: The origins of behavior may help us understand it, but they do not remove the responsibility for changing it.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: There is also another possible adaptation.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Some adults decide never to become emotionally dependent upon anyone.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: They maintain relationships while keeping an internal escape route.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: They may avoid commitment, remain secretive, or leave when intimacy increases.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: They tell themselves they simply value freedom.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: But freedom and avoidance are the same.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Freedom allows a person to choose closeness without losing themselves.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Avoidance requires distance because closeness feels unsafe.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: The difference becomes visible when the relationship asks something emotionally difficult of them.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Can they remain present?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Can they tolerate another person's disappointment?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Can they acknowledge that they have caused hurt?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Can they apologize without collapsing into shame or defending themselves?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Can they repair?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because repair is especially important.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've spoken about this a lot.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: But the consequence of being in a relationship with someone who can repair, if both parties can repair, it gets stronger.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: When repair can't happen, you know, it just gets weaker.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: The adult raised by an avoidant parent may never have learned this.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Conflict means silence, rejection, or emotional disappearance.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And they may therefore treat every every disagreement as a threat to the entire relationship.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: They avoid conflict altogether or escalate it beyond what the present situation requires.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And what's missing is the middle ground.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it doesn't, it doesn't uh it doesn't have to be that way.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: The middle ground is okay, we've hurt one another, but neither of us has to disappear.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Internal working models influence relationships, but they don't have to determine them.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: They are explanations built from experience and they can be modified.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, change begins when the pattern becomes recognizable, when people can talk about it, when they start to recognize how being cared for makes them feel.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: They begin to distinguish a present disagreement from an earlier experience of rejection.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: They ask whether the person before them is actually unavailable or whether they are expecting them to be.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: They learn to express a need before it becomes a demand.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think what we can see from this is that the consequences do get played out, and I suspect that many people listening to this will have had those kinds of experiences.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And rather than look at somebody else, look at yourself, because maybe you find that you always react in a given kind of way, and that quietly or perhaps not so quietly, you expect things to go wrong or you expect certain reactions, and that actually, if you look beneath those expectations, you'll see where they came from.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Most of my work in psychotherapy is about joining the dots.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: People presenting difficulties in the present.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Learn that the origins of those difficulties lie in the past.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And making sense of those things is the is is the prelude to change, doing things differently.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, that that's fine when people come to therapy.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Generally speaking, avoidance don't, the clue is in the word.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And those people never join the dots unless something very significant happens, or if there are a series of things that happen that force them to examine themselves.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: The avoidant parent, the avoidant personality, it does a great deal of damage.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it it's not it's not just damage to people that they enter into relationships with, it's a damage to their children, which then will manifest in later life, because those children will have learned what relationship looks like, what it feels like, who they are and where they are within the context of a relationship, what you can expect from another person in a relationship, what a relationship will cost you.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we're talking about children and young people.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if any of this makes sense to you, I I I I really hope that helps.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you're somebody who is in a relationship with somebody who is avoidant, you need to ask yourself a question What is it costing me?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: What is this experience costing me?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: By all means, do consider trying to have some additional help, but don't hold your breath.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds rather pessimistic.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: But generally speaking, most people will only will only change when they feel they have to.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: They won't do it at the request of others, and that's that's understandable.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose the other takeaway from this particular episode is what you do now is going to find expression later down the line.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Every adult patient I've worked with or anybody who I've come into contact with who develops relational difficulties of one kind or another grew up in an environment where, albeit subtly sometimes not so, they grew up in an environment where relationships, attachment were complicated in some way.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: They were compromised in some way.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: So the child that they were did not grow up in an environment that was emotionally healthy.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: In the next episode, I'll look more closely at emotional self-management and how children of avoidant parents may either suppress feelings or become overwhelmed, and why these apparently opposite responses can emerge from the same failure of emotional containment.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what's important here is looking at the emotional self management, and that of course takes us into the territory of my daily work.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hope this has been helpful.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.