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310: Connecting Through Conversation: Rethinking Behavior Strategies for Schools, with Erika Bare & Tiffany Burns · Beautifully Complex

0:03
Speaker 1: They're not thinking, Oh gosh, she keeps telling me to
0:06
Speaker 1: sit up and engage in class and get my paper
0:09
Speaker 1: turned in. And she's just saying all those things because
0:12
Speaker 1: she just loves me so much and she really cares
0:14
Speaker 1: about me. No, that kid thinks we're a nag. That
0:18
Speaker 1: kid things that were on their case, and that we're
0:20
Speaker 1: really kind of after them, and they might even think
0:23
Speaker 1: we don't like them, and that is really really problematic.
0:30
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
0:34
Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
0:39
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
0:42
Speaker 2: and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
0:45
Speaker 2: of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back
0:53
Speaker 2: everybody to Beautifully Complex. I am thrilled today to have
0:57
Speaker 2: with me both Tiffany Burns and Erica bhar to talk
1:01
Speaker 2: about their book and connecting with students at school through conversation,
1:07
Speaker 2: which I know as parents we're going to be able
1:09
Speaker 2: to pull a lot of good strategies from as well,
1:12
Speaker 2: but we can also share these strategies with the educators
1:16
Speaker 2: that work with our nerdivergent kids. So will you all
1:19
Speaker 2: start by introducing yourself, Let everybody listening know who you
1:23
Speaker 2: are and what you do, and then we're going to
1:25
Speaker 2: get into the good stuff.
1:26
Speaker 3: Sure.
1:27
Speaker 4: I'm Erica Behar and I've been an educator for just
1:31
Speaker 4: well a few years past twenty years. And I started
1:35
Speaker 4: out as a special education teacher and I had the
1:38
Speaker 4: opportunity to work with students an early intervention all the
1:42
Speaker 4: way through transition age and absolutely loved that work. Transitioned
1:48
Speaker 4: into administration school administration about thirteen fourteen years ago, and
1:54
Speaker 4: was a high school principal and assistant principal, elementary principal,
1:58
Speaker 4: student services director and assistant superintendent, and now serve as
2:02
Speaker 4: the superintendent and a lovely district here in southern Oregon.
2:06
Speaker 4: And on top of that, I have two amazing kids,
2:09
Speaker 4: twenty and seventeen, and a fabulous husband who makes it
2:13
Speaker 4: all possible for me. And I'm here with my lovely colleague, Tiffany.
2:17
Speaker 3: Hi.
2:18
Speaker 1: Thanks for having us. So I've also been in education
2:21
Speaker 1: for over twenty years. I've taught elementary, middle, high school,
2:24
Speaker 1: I'm now teaching university. I've been a school administrator since
2:28
Speaker 1: twenty twelve. Eric and I actually met in our admin
2:33
Speaker 1: program together and then we were hired in.
2:36
Speaker 3: The same district, which has been kind of lovely. Has
2:38
Speaker 3: been rather lovely. I get to spend so much time
2:41
Speaker 3: with her.
2:42
Speaker 1: I also have two fabulous children and a wonderful husband
2:46
Speaker 1: and a.
2:46
Speaker 3: Very weird dog.
2:49
Speaker 1: And this year I decided to take a professional sabbatical.
2:53
Speaker 1: Eric and I wrote this book and we've been traveling
2:56
Speaker 1: all over the country doing professional development. I've been coaching principals,
3:00
Speaker 1: working with schools and districts, and kind of hard to
3:02
Speaker 1: do that is the full time principle. So this year
3:06
Speaker 1: I'm working at a university and then doing that same
3:08
Speaker 1: work and it has just been really fun, really really fun.
3:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so amazing to be able to be a
3:15
Speaker 2: helper in the world and to be able to share
3:18
Speaker 2: what we're so passionate about. And I know that it's
3:20
Speaker 2: helping so many people, so many schools and administrators, but
3:25
Speaker 2: also the kids, because when we understand behavior and when
3:30
Speaker 2: we're able to connect, it really makes a difference for students.
3:35
Speaker 2: Where do you want to start this conversation. I feel
3:38
Speaker 2: like there are probably some strategies around how we have
3:42
Speaker 2: conversations with kids and you know, strategies around how do
3:46
Speaker 2: we handle challenging behavior in a way that works for
3:51
Speaker 2: nerdvergent kids, because so often those traditional models just don't
3:55
Speaker 2: work for kids who have a hard time already in
3:59
Speaker 2: that school environment and fitting and meeting expectations.
4:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think a primary strategy that we would start with,
4:07
Speaker 4: really with all kids is the idea that we need
4:10
Speaker 4: to care out loud with all of our students. I
4:13
Speaker 4: love kids. That's why I got into education. I know
4:16
Speaker 4: that you love kids. I think all of the educators
4:19
Speaker 4: out there love kids, or at least we really hope so,
4:22
Speaker 4: and they know that and their colleagues know that, but
4:26
Speaker 4: oftentimes the students don't know that, and that really is
4:30
Speaker 4: where we have to start. And Tiffany does a great
4:33
Speaker 4: job kind of explaining how that goes.
4:35
Speaker 3: Thanks Erica, I do.
4:36
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the absolute most important things,
4:38
Speaker 1: is making sure that kids know that we really really
4:41
Speaker 1: do care about them. And that's why we went into education.
4:44
Speaker 1: You know, they don't come into school just knowing that.
4:47
Speaker 1: They don't come into school thinking, oh my goodness, every
4:49
Speaker 1: single adult that works here loves me, they care about me.
4:53
Speaker 3: They got into.
4:54
Speaker 1: Education because they've just wanted to see me be successful.
4:57
Speaker 1: And especially with our kids that are neurodiverse and that
5:01
Speaker 1: are not neurotypical, they're getting lots of redirection frequently, right,
5:06
Speaker 1: They're getting lots of reminders, lots of intervention, lots of
5:10
Speaker 1: we need to do it this way, let's not do
5:12
Speaker 1: it that way. And so I think it's important. I
5:14
Speaker 1: know it's important for all kids, but it's especially important
5:18
Speaker 1: for our kids that are needing extra direction or more
5:21
Speaker 1: intervention because they're not thinking, oh gosh, she keeps telling
5:25
Speaker 1: me to sit up and engage in class and get
5:27
Speaker 1: my paper turned in, and she just saying all those
5:30
Speaker 1: things because she just loves me so much and she
5:33
Speaker 1: really cares about me. No, that kid thinks we're a nag.
5:37
Speaker 1: That kid things that were on their case and that
5:39
Speaker 1: we're really kind of after them, and they might even
5:42
Speaker 1: think we don't like them, and that is really really problematic.
5:46
Speaker 1: We know, you know, Erica likes to say, if you've
5:48
Speaker 1: been in education for five minutes, you know that relationships
5:52
Speaker 1: are important. And so with that, it's just really necessary
5:57
Speaker 1: that we say to kids frequently, explicitly and intentionally, I
6:02
Speaker 1: care about you. I'm so glad you're here. This class
6:05
Speaker 1: is so much better because you're in it. Oh, it's
6:08
Speaker 1: so fantastic that you participated today, you know, whatever it is.
6:11
Speaker 1: But really building those sentence stems in or those phrases
6:15
Speaker 1: into our everyday conversation, because if we don't, kids are
6:20
Speaker 1: going to assume that we.
6:21
Speaker 2: Don't mm hm for sure. Yeah, And I'm thinking, you know,
6:25
Speaker 2: how do we not even communicate that we care about?
6:30
Speaker 2: How do we make them feel like they're cared for
6:34
Speaker 2: in that environment? And teachers are so overtaxt right, there's
6:39
Speaker 2: so much to think about and be responsible for. And
6:42
Speaker 2: you have so many kids and they all have different needs.
6:45
Speaker 2: What are some strategies that teachers can use kind of
6:47
Speaker 2: with all kids really to make them feel like we care?
6:52
Speaker 4: So we really suggest we have to tell them, we
6:55
Speaker 4: have to use our words, but then also we have
6:57
Speaker 4: to build into our routine specific pieces that are going
7:01
Speaker 4: to show care on a regular basis. So you know,
7:04
Speaker 4: there's a number of them, and we talk about this
7:07
Speaker 4: in our book and it's also on our website, but
7:09
Speaker 4: a few routines that I think are really powerful that
7:11
Speaker 4: we sometimes skip over. How we greet our students and
7:15
Speaker 4: how we say goodbye to our students is really critical
7:18
Speaker 4: students remember most clearly the first and last thing is
7:22
Speaker 4: a part of any interaction, and so being really intentional
7:26
Speaker 4: when a student is entering the space to make sure
7:28
Speaker 4: that they feel welcome and loved and that we're excited
7:32
Speaker 4: for them to be there. And that can range from
7:34
Speaker 4: a whole number of things. It can be as simple
7:36
Speaker 4: as like, oh my gosh, Johnny, I'm so excited to
7:38
Speaker 4: see you today. We're going to have such a good time.
7:40
Speaker 4: I'm thrilled that you're here to you know, you see
7:42
Speaker 4: those YouTube videos with all the fancy greetings and that
7:45
Speaker 4: sort of thing. If that's if that's for you, you
7:47
Speaker 4: can do that too. But then also as closure kind
7:51
Speaker 4: of bringing a celebration to the end of the day,
7:54
Speaker 4: we want to use a student's name as often as
7:56
Speaker 4: possible and then just say how excited we are to
7:59
Speaker 4: see them now time and let them know that they're
8:01
Speaker 4: going to be missed. And so really focusing on the
8:04
Speaker 4: beginning and end is really critical. We also a very
8:08
Speaker 4: practical thing to really help us get to know our
8:11
Speaker 4: students and then celebrate them is to take inventory of
8:15
Speaker 4: their favorite things. Find out what their favorite superhero is,
8:19
Speaker 4: what's their favorite song, what's their favorite color, whatever, the
8:23
Speaker 4: you know, depending on the age, is going to really
8:25
Speaker 4: focus that but then finding those things out, but then
8:28
Speaker 4: using them throughout the year. So if you get every
8:30
Speaker 4: student's favorite song, you can build a playlist and when
8:33
Speaker 4: it's appropriate to play music and class, you can play
8:36
Speaker 4: a playlist of their favorite songs. When their birthday comes up,
8:39
Speaker 4: you can celebrate with something that is specific to them.
8:43
Speaker 4: You know, if their favorite superhero is Batman, we have
8:45
Speaker 4: a Batman.
8:46
Speaker 3: Sticker, right.
8:47
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be huge, but it just shows
8:49
Speaker 4: that we're paying attention to them individually and as a person.
8:53
Speaker 4: And so just building some of those routines into our
8:57
Speaker 4: daily practice is going to show care on a regular basis.
9:02
Speaker 1: You know, I have I have two teenagers and both
9:05
Speaker 1: of my kids are neurodiverse. And my son, I can
9:08
Speaker 1: ask him how he's in high school. I can ask
9:10
Speaker 1: him how his day is, and oh, my goodness, I
9:12
Speaker 1: get like cool, fine, you know, I mean like one
9:15
Speaker 1: word answers yep. My daughter, I ask her how her
9:18
Speaker 1: day was, and I mean I get the full run
9:20
Speaker 1: down of everything, like I know what people ate for
9:23
Speaker 1: lunch that day, which.
9:24
Speaker 3: Is just great. My kids are just really different.
9:26
Speaker 1: But so you know, at dinner, or we try to
9:30
Speaker 1: have dinner together as many times a week as we can.
9:32
Speaker 1: Sometimes that's hard when they play sports and have different activities.
9:36
Speaker 1: But one of the things we do every night at
9:37
Speaker 1: dinner that we have it is we say, what's an
9:40
Speaker 1: orchid and onion? What's a highlight of your day and
9:42
Speaker 1: a low point in your day. My kids for a
9:44
Speaker 1: while got into telling me something they were looking forward to,
9:47
Speaker 1: so they named that a Karen's just cute, but it's
9:51
Speaker 1: a really you know, we can do that in classrooms,
9:53
Speaker 1: but we can also do that at home. Sometimes the
9:55
Speaker 1: pressure of tell me about your day that's too much.
9:57
Speaker 3: But if I say what.
9:58
Speaker 1: Was a good thing that happened today and what was
10:00
Speaker 1: a not so good thing that happened today? And then also,
10:03
Speaker 1: you know, I have to be willing to share as well.
10:07
Speaker 3: I need to show that.
10:08
Speaker 1: Vulnerability too with my kids and say, here are the
10:11
Speaker 1: parts you know about my day. I don't go into
10:13
Speaker 1: detail with them, but I do share with them those
10:15
Speaker 1: pieces and it's just really helpful to let them know
10:19
Speaker 1: that we're paying attention and we do care about what's
10:22
Speaker 1: going on for them.
10:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, And my son was the same way in high school.
10:26
Speaker 2: When I would pick him up, I'd be like, how
10:28
Speaker 2: is your day right, you know, doing that mom thing,
10:30
Speaker 2: and he just did not have anything left in his
10:34
Speaker 2: reserves at that moment to talk about any of it, right,
10:37
Speaker 2: And I had to learn to honor that signal that
10:41
Speaker 2: he was telling me they needed some downtime. I also
10:43
Speaker 2: had to learn to be more specific and not ask
10:46
Speaker 2: a question. My kid did not like questions. Questions were
10:49
Speaker 2: an immediate like nope, not having any conversation with you,
10:53
Speaker 2: and so noticing And that's kind of what you were
10:55
Speaker 2: talking about too. Erica is really noticing what they're into,
11:01
Speaker 2: but noticing it out loud with them, right. I see
11:04
Speaker 2: that your favorite color is purple. I see that your
11:07
Speaker 2: favorite team is you know, the sports team, or your
11:10
Speaker 2: favorite TV show or book character, whatever it is. There's
11:13
Speaker 2: so many ways to just be a little more communicative
11:19
Speaker 2: about what we're noticing, right, And then that makes them
11:22
Speaker 2: feel really seen. I talk all the time about how
11:25
Speaker 2: if we all felt seen her and understood it would
11:28
Speaker 2: really change the world, Like it really changes how we
11:32
Speaker 2: show up and how we feel from day to day,
11:35
Speaker 2: and it makes a huge impact for kids at school
11:38
Speaker 2: when teachers, you know, the teachers that my kid remembers
11:42
Speaker 2: now that he's graduated from school and had thirteen years,
11:46
Speaker 2: are the ones who really took the time to get
11:48
Speaker 2: to know him and to connect in that way. And
11:52
Speaker 2: that's what's most memorable too, when you were talking about
11:55
Speaker 2: greeting them in the mornings. We had a principal change
11:58
Speaker 2: halfway through high school, and the new principal the last
12:01
Speaker 2: couple of years before COVID hit was out there every
12:04
Speaker 2: day reading every kid who got dropped off at that
12:07
Speaker 2: front door, every single kid. He would talk to them,
12:10
Speaker 2: and you knew that he had so many things to
12:14
Speaker 2: be doing right because he's in charge of everything and
12:17
Speaker 2: this is a big high school. But even I noticed
12:20
Speaker 2: it as a parent, it made a difference to me.
12:24
Speaker 2: Even so it's really a powerful thing.
12:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, oftentimes people will say we don't
12:30
Speaker 4: have time to do these different things that help build
12:33
Speaker 4: relationships or take that time to really get to know
12:36
Speaker 4: and recognize and celebrate our students, And I would argue
12:39
Speaker 4: strongly that we don't have time to not do that,
12:42
Speaker 4: because what happens when we really take the time to
12:45
Speaker 4: build those connections and build those relationships, you're able to
12:48
Speaker 4: save so much time down the road. You know, I
12:51
Speaker 4: was thinking about you know, you noticed as a parent,
12:54
Speaker 4: and I think sometimes parents don't know how much we
12:58
Speaker 4: love and care about their kids at school, and so
13:00
Speaker 4: making sure that we're integrating that into our conversation as well,
13:05
Speaker 4: making sure that we're engaging in frequent small talk with
13:08
Speaker 4: our kids and their caregivers and then weaving that into
13:12
Speaker 4: conversations with both of them can make a significant difference,
13:16
Speaker 4: because you know, as a mom, I wanted to know
13:18
Speaker 4: that the folks that were taking care of my kids
13:21
Speaker 4: knew them, loved them, cared about them, and had their
13:24
Speaker 4: very best interest at heart. And although you know as
13:27
Speaker 4: an educator, I know that's true for me as a parent,
13:29
Speaker 4: until you can see that in action, it's a leap
13:32
Speaker 4: of faith. And so helping make that clear for everyone
13:35
Speaker 4: is really important.
13:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how can we take these strategies that you've
13:39
Speaker 2: been talking about and use them to help with behavior
13:44
Speaker 2: challenges at school? Because we know, as I said in
13:47
Speaker 2: the very beginning, most of the really traditional behavior modification
13:51
Speaker 2: things don't work very well for neurodiversent kids. I would
13:56
Speaker 2: argue that They're probably not the best way for any kid,
13:59
Speaker 2: But like, for instance, in first grade, they had the
14:01
Speaker 2: color behavior charts, right, and every kid would have to
14:05
Speaker 2: turn their card if they got in trouble for something,
14:08
Speaker 2: and kids like mine, who are hyperactive and all over
14:11
Speaker 2: the place and want to talk all the time right,
14:13
Speaker 2: really struggled with that with having to you know, you
14:16
Speaker 2: would come home and say, my card is always orange red,
14:20
Speaker 2: I don't know how to keep a green right. So
14:22
Speaker 2: things like that can be damaging right to their self esteem.
14:28
Speaker 2: How do we pivot from that? What's a more effective way?
14:32
Speaker 2: I don't want to say better.
14:35
Speaker 4: Well, I think, you know, come from kind of the
14:38
Speaker 4: twenty thousand foot view. The first thing we have to
14:41
Speaker 4: do as educators and as parents and caregivers is recognize
14:45
Speaker 4: that behaviors communication. They're needing to let us know something.
14:49
Speaker 4: There's something that they need to communicate. There's a need
14:52
Speaker 4: that's not being met, and they don't yet have the
14:55
Speaker 4: skills to express that need in a way that you
14:58
Speaker 4: know is kind of traditionally works at school, and so
15:02
Speaker 4: we spend a lot of time talking about the fact
15:05
Speaker 4: that a student's behavior is what they did, it's not
15:09
Speaker 4: who they are. Because what can be tricky, you know.
15:13
Speaker 4: And the example that you gave is if a student
15:16
Speaker 4: has an orange and red card day after day after day,
15:19
Speaker 4: they're going to start seeing themselves as a bad kid.
15:22
Speaker 4: They're going to start seeing themselves as someone who is
15:24
Speaker 4: not good at school. And so we want to be
15:27
Speaker 4: really clear with students and in our own minds that
15:30
Speaker 4: a behavior is just a thing you did, it's not
15:33
Speaker 4: who you are. So our job is to help separate
15:36
Speaker 4: that for students and then start to identify what are
15:39
Speaker 4: some of the lagging skills, what are some of the
15:41
Speaker 4: pieces that we can scaffold and build so that we
15:44
Speaker 4: can communicate in a way that works better at school
15:47
Speaker 4: When we get to a place where we just start
15:49
Speaker 4: to believe that's who we are, or even as a teacher,
15:51
Speaker 4: if we get to a place where we start belaving
15:53
Speaker 4: that's just kind of who this kid is, then that's
15:56
Speaker 4: a very kind of hopeless place to be. You know,
15:59
Speaker 4: as the student, you're very likely to just start doing
16:02
Speaker 4: more and more of that behavior because you start to
16:04
Speaker 4: believe it's out of your control if you aren't being
16:07
Speaker 4: taught the skills of how to adjust right and then
16:10
Speaker 4: also being a negotiation with the educator about what can
16:14
Speaker 4: work for me in this space in a way that's
16:16
Speaker 4: going to work for everyone. Some of that collaborative problem
16:19
Speaker 4: solving can be really helpful in moments like that. And
16:23
Speaker 4: then also is a teacher like if we're in a
16:25
Speaker 4: space where we're like I can't impact this behavior, then
16:28
Speaker 4: we're just thinking this is going to be a really
16:30
Speaker 4: long year. But we're teachers, and so our job is
16:34
Speaker 4: to teach and build skills, and so we also want
16:37
Speaker 4: to be in a place of Okay, this is a
16:39
Speaker 4: skill they don't have. We're going to make a plan
16:41
Speaker 4: to build this skill set and really work closely with
16:44
Speaker 4: the student and with the team to figure out, Okay,
16:47
Speaker 4: what are the specific skills, What are some of those
16:49
Speaker 4: pieces that we can start skill building in in a
16:53
Speaker 4: way that's going to work for everybody. So it's a
16:56
Speaker 4: mindset piece for me as a starting place.
16:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Well, and I think too, it's how do
17:02
Speaker 1: we build from their strengths?
17:04
Speaker 3: Right?
17:04
Speaker 1: Like how that whole idea of really getting to know
17:06
Speaker 1: our students and knowing, you know, what their interests are.
17:09
Speaker 1: That's also knowing what their strengths are and using those
17:12
Speaker 1: to help build that relationship but also really support the
17:16
Speaker 1: skill building that we're looking for. How do we really
17:18
Speaker 1: channel those strengths. How do we focus on their interests
17:21
Speaker 1: to help them, you know, be able to really I mean,
17:25
Speaker 1: what we're asking kids to do is to stop think
17:27
Speaker 1: and make good choices, and how can we do that
17:31
Speaker 1: in ways that are really supportive and not shaming.
17:43
Speaker 2: I find too that these sorts of pivots for teachers,
17:47
Speaker 2: you can do it for every student. It makes a
17:50
Speaker 2: difference for every student, right, So we're not asking you
17:54
Speaker 2: to adopt a different strategy for every different student, right
17:59
Speaker 2: And as Erica said a few minutes ago, it's going
18:02
Speaker 2: to save you time in the long run. If you
18:03
Speaker 2: can shift, your classroom is just going to work more efficiently,
18:09
Speaker 2: and kids are going to feel more comfortable there, which
18:12
Speaker 2: helps with behavior also, and really adopting that mindset that
18:17
Speaker 2: they are sending us signals. Kids are always sending us
18:20
Speaker 2: signals of what they need. You know, when my kid
18:22
Speaker 2: was bouncing all over the room, he needed movement, right
18:25
Speaker 2: His nervous system was saying, I need movement. I can't
18:29
Speaker 2: be still, you know, And that teacher was great, and
18:32
Speaker 2: she pivoted in so many ways. In first grade, with
18:34
Speaker 2: both giving him a different sort of behavior plan so
18:38
Speaker 2: that he could earn the rewards that the other kids
18:41
Speaker 2: were earning, and also a lot of movement and things
18:44
Speaker 2: like that. And it didn't take any extra time. It
18:47
Speaker 2: was just something that needed to happen, and it actually
18:50
Speaker 2: saved her time right from having to constantly correct. And
18:55
Speaker 2: you know what I was hearing you say is that
18:57
Speaker 2: connection is so much more important and correction.
19:01
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely well, And I think you keep saying mindset
19:05
Speaker 1: and I think that's just so accurate and so just truthful.
19:10
Speaker 1: And a lot of times when we think about kids
19:12
Speaker 1: that need a lot of our intervention, they need a
19:15
Speaker 1: lot of our attention, we call these students and we
19:18
Speaker 1: think of them as attention seeking. And Eric, can I
19:21
Speaker 1: talk a lot about really starting to shift that and
19:24
Speaker 1: thinking about kids as connection seeking and just how that
19:28
Speaker 1: small shift really changes the way that we're thinking about
19:32
Speaker 1: kids and the way that we're interacting with kids, and
19:35
Speaker 1: also it starts us to feel.
19:37
Speaker 3: Differently about them. Right.
19:39
Speaker 1: If I think of a student as attention seeking, well,
19:42
Speaker 1: that means they need a lot.
19:43
Speaker 3: For me, I'm having to give a lot. That's a
19:46
Speaker 3: one way relationship.
19:47
Speaker 2: Right.
19:48
Speaker 1: But if I think of a student as connection seeking, Well,
19:51
Speaker 1: that just means that they want to connect with me,
19:54
Speaker 1: and that goes from feeling like something I'm giving away
19:57
Speaker 1: to something I'm also getting in return. That feels much
20:00
Speaker 1: more reciprocal, That feels just like a much more.
20:04
Speaker 3: Joyful place to be.
20:06
Speaker 1: And not only will I feel that as the educator
20:09
Speaker 1: or the adult talking with this child, They're going to
20:12
Speaker 1: feel it as well. They'll notice that shift because I'll
20:15
Speaker 1: talk to them differently, I'll think about them differently, and
20:18
Speaker 1: we'll interact differently.
20:21
Speaker 2: It's almost a culture shift, right. You're creating a culture
20:24
Speaker 2: in your classroom of community, of collaboration, of connection, and
20:29
Speaker 2: that it just goes so far. It really can change everything.
20:34
Speaker 4: It really can. And I think you know, in our
20:37
Speaker 4: book we talk about the mindset piece. We really believe
20:39
Speaker 4: that there's an art and a science to building relationships
20:42
Speaker 4: and serving kids. What I want to make sure that
20:45
Speaker 4: we also share is that there is mind shift, there
20:48
Speaker 4: is kind of thinking, and there's a lot of culture
20:52
Speaker 4: building that needs to happen in a classroom or a
20:54
Speaker 4: school community to get to a place where this is
20:57
Speaker 4: going to be effective. But you can't just say to
20:59
Speaker 4: an edge cater like think differently, do better. You also
21:03
Speaker 4: have to provide some really concrete skills and strategies, and
21:07
Speaker 4: so we really tried to balance those things, you know,
21:10
Speaker 4: as a building principle. When I was working with an
21:13
Speaker 4: educator who struggled with relationships, I couldn't just say, you know,
21:17
Speaker 4: go build better relationships. If they knew how to do that,
21:20
Speaker 4: they would be doing that right. It's always preferable to
21:23
Speaker 4: do well then not do well, and I believe the
21:25
Speaker 4: same thing for our kids. So we also tried to
21:27
Speaker 4: include some concrete strategies. I think some of the pieces
21:32
Speaker 4: around power struggle might be especially helpful for the parents
21:36
Speaker 4: on the line too. But we spend a bunch of
21:39
Speaker 4: time on this idea of not engaging in power struggles
21:42
Speaker 4: with students because we know as soon as we engage,
21:46
Speaker 4: we have lost the battle, and so we think about
21:49
Speaker 4: it as like a tug of war. We're not going
21:51
Speaker 4: to pick up the rope. And we have some specific
21:54
Speaker 4: strategies that we like to share. One of them is
21:59
Speaker 4: don't ask a question if it's not a choice. As educators,
22:04
Speaker 4: we have this tendency to be super polite. We like
22:07
Speaker 4: to put please in front of everything, and that can
22:10
Speaker 4: be really confusing, especially if we have a black and
22:13
Speaker 4: white thinker. If we have an expectation, we just need
22:16
Speaker 4: to state the expectation. So saying something like, ooh, could
22:20
Speaker 4: you walk in the halls is not helpful because a
22:23
Speaker 4: perfectly acceptable answer to that is nu right. So instead
22:26
Speaker 4: we're going to say, we walk in the halls, you
22:29
Speaker 4: can take a seat now, thanks for lining up. But
22:33
Speaker 4: we're just stating the expectation. We're not asking a question.
22:37
Speaker 4: And it's just you wouldn't believe how common it is
22:40
Speaker 4: to hear ooh, could you all take a seat, ooh
22:42
Speaker 4: could you all come line up? Or we also often
22:46
Speaker 4: see folks turn a statement into a question. Right, it's
22:50
Speaker 4: time to move to art now, okay, and like by
22:54
Speaker 4: adding that, okay, all of a sudden, we've taken an
22:57
Speaker 4: expectation and we've turned it into a question.
23:00
Speaker 3: And any parent.
23:01
Speaker 4: Knows we're not going to look at a three year
23:02
Speaker 4: old and say, oh, do you feel like going to
23:04
Speaker 4: bed now?
23:05
Speaker 3: Right? Of course? Not no, no, thank you, you.
23:08
Speaker 4: Want to brush your teeth? Ah, So we want to
23:12
Speaker 4: be really clear. State expectations as expectations, and don't ask
23:16
Speaker 4: a question if it's not a choice.
23:19
Speaker 2: I love that that's such a practical strategy, right, because
23:23
Speaker 2: we do. I mean I as a people pleaser and
23:27
Speaker 2: a person with social anxiety, I'm always everything is please,
23:32
Speaker 2: thank you, Like I'm going over the top with making
23:35
Speaker 2: the other person comfortable and trying not to say the
23:39
Speaker 2: wrong thing. And I think if we're just a super kind,
23:42
Speaker 2: compassionate person, we're saying please and thank you, we're trying
23:45
Speaker 2: to do that. And so it will take some mindful
23:50
Speaker 2: awareness and effort to make that kind of shift, but
23:53
Speaker 2: I can see how it would make a real difference.
23:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, can we talk just.
23:56
Speaker 2: A second before we close about you know, hear a
24:00
Speaker 2: lot from parents and educators that we can't change the
24:06
Speaker 2: way our system is.
24:07
Speaker 3: Right.
24:08
Speaker 2: So educators will say, well, it's the policy for my
24:11
Speaker 2: entire school or my entire district that we use this
24:15
Speaker 2: specific behavior program, the card turning or whatever it might be,
24:21
Speaker 2: and they don't feel like they can do something different.
24:24
Speaker 2: And then parents are coming in and saying this isn't
24:27
Speaker 2: working for my kid, and they're saying, but this is
24:29
Speaker 2: what I have to do. How can they start to
24:31
Speaker 2: help to maybe shift the culture in their school so
24:35
Speaker 2: that we can adopt these different ways of looking at
24:39
Speaker 2: behavior and connecting with kids.
24:42
Speaker 1: I think it's really important to think about is what
24:44
Speaker 1: you're doing working, you know? And Eric and I are
24:47
Speaker 1: just on this absolute mission, like we do want to change. Yeah,
24:52
Speaker 1: we are on a mission to ensure that every single
24:55
Speaker 1: student in every single school feels that they are cared for, loved, seen, valued,
25:01
Speaker 1: and a deep sense of belonging.
25:03
Speaker 3: That's what we want.
25:05
Speaker 1: And so I think the piece to really look at
25:08
Speaker 1: is what you're doing really working and does it.
25:10
Speaker 3: Feel good to you?
25:11
Speaker 1: You know, Like I don't want to go to work
25:13
Speaker 1: and feel like I don't want to be there, or
25:16
Speaker 1: like my job is all about discipline. That's not fun.
25:20
Speaker 1: That's not why I went into education. I want to
25:22
Speaker 1: go because I want to get to spend time with kids.
25:24
Speaker 1: I want to get excited about teaching and learning. I
25:26
Speaker 1: want to feel some connection there. I want to bring
25:29
Speaker 1: joy to the world, and I want to make the
25:31
Speaker 1: world a better place. So we wrote this book to
25:35
Speaker 1: do that. We wrote, I mean, this is a playbook
25:38
Speaker 1: for how to talk with students, different strategies and stems
25:41
Speaker 1: that we can use. And these type of strategies a
25:45
Speaker 1: teacher can immediately put into place in their classroom just
25:49
Speaker 1: like tomorrow, you know, and parents, it's so funny. We'll
25:52
Speaker 1: talk to educators and the parents will be like, tried
25:54
Speaker 1: it that night with my son and it totally works.
25:57
Speaker 1: But I just think, you know, these are that are
26:00
Speaker 1: just they build that culture of connection. When we were
26:05
Speaker 1: coming back from COVID at the school I was in
26:07
Speaker 1: principal at in elementary school, we had moved. There were
26:10
Speaker 1: a number of different factors, but our student body had shifted.
26:14
Speaker 1: Over fifty percent of our student body was brand new,
26:16
Speaker 1: so a bunch of our students didn't really know our
26:19
Speaker 1: you know, they didn't know the Walker way really and
26:22
Speaker 1: so we really spent time putting these different strategies into place.
26:26
Speaker 1: We really took a look at our systems, and we
26:28
Speaker 1: really had this strong culture of connection. We had a
26:32
Speaker 1: reduction of thirty six percent. We had thirty six percent
26:35
Speaker 1: reduction in behavior referrals from the fall to the spring
26:38
Speaker 1: in one year. And so I don't think it's just
26:41
Speaker 1: one strategy. It's like, what's working and how do you
26:44
Speaker 1: feel about it?
26:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I would add too, Tiffany at Walker didn't
26:50
Speaker 4: change the behavior program that they used in the school.
26:53
Speaker 4: They didn't change like the district adopted this is what
26:56
Speaker 4: we do for behavior. They changed the relay, right, And
27:01
Speaker 4: I think that's really what we try to do with
27:03
Speaker 4: this book. We're not saying you need to throw out
27:05
Speaker 4: a system, or you know, if you're a PBIS school,
27:08
Speaker 4: if you're a storative justice, whatever the thing is, this
27:12
Speaker 4: will work with all of those. And also I would
27:15
Speaker 4: always challenge educators and families when we have like if
27:20
Speaker 4: there's a specific strategy. You know, I'm thinking about those
27:23
Speaker 4: red and yellow cards, which just does give me a
27:25
Speaker 4: little bit of a shiver. But if if we went
27:27
Speaker 4: to that as a strategy, right, if that was the strategy,
27:30
Speaker 4: then I would want to go to that team and say, okay,
27:33
Speaker 4: so we have the same interest. Our interest is to
27:37
Speaker 4: have behavior that works at school or to reduce whatever
27:40
Speaker 4: the behavior is that we're seeing that's problematic. Like that's
27:43
Speaker 4: what we want to do. You want that, I want that,
27:46
Speaker 4: Joey wants that. We all want that. So how can
27:49
Speaker 4: we work together to find a strategy that's going to
27:52
Speaker 4: meet everybody's needs. And here's the thing, Like if all
27:57
Speaker 4: of our kids were the same, school would be a
27:59
Speaker 4: very boring place. So the approach that works with one
28:02
Speaker 4: student is not going to work with every student, and
28:04
Speaker 4: so this idea that like this is the policy for everyone.
28:09
Speaker 4: We have to have some freedom within those fences to
28:12
Speaker 4: make things that work for the individual kids in front
28:16
Speaker 4: of us, because that's that's what makes us so rich
28:18
Speaker 4: and wonderful, is the diversity that we have in our spaces.
28:22
Speaker 4: And so we need to be able to think creatively
28:25
Speaker 4: and just focus on what is the thing that we
28:28
Speaker 4: all want, and we all want students who are being
28:31
Speaker 4: successful and thriving in school. So what can we do
28:34
Speaker 4: to find something that will work for everyone?
28:37
Speaker 2: And showing up with flexibility it howsolute and I have
28:41
Speaker 2: a feeling, you know, ross work because you said behaviors
28:44
Speaker 2: communication at the beginning. And one of my favorite things
28:48
Speaker 2: that he also says is if you show me an
28:50
Speaker 2: inflexible kid, I will show you an equally inflexible adult.
28:55
Speaker 3: Right.
28:55
Speaker 2: We have to model that flexibility in order to get
29:00
Speaker 2: that expectation of flexibility out of kids. And it's so important.
29:05
Speaker 2: It teaches them so much just by us showing up
29:08
Speaker 2: more flexibly. Yeah, let everybody know where they can find
29:13
Speaker 2: your book and find your work online so that they
29:15
Speaker 2: can learn more from you.
29:17
Speaker 3: Yeah.
29:17
Speaker 4: The best place is definitely Connecting through Conversation dot Com.
29:21
Speaker 4: Our website you can find our book. We have a
29:24
Speaker 4: bunch of free resources on there. We have a blog
29:26
Speaker 4: that talks a lot more about all of these things.
29:29
Speaker 4: Our book is on Amazon. You can also grab it
29:32
Speaker 4: through our website and our emails there all of the socials.
29:36
Speaker 4: It's really helpful to follow us because we do again
29:40
Speaker 4: just share a ton of free resources and ideas and
29:42
Speaker 4: tips throughout the year, so really encourage you to do that.
29:45
Speaker 4: We have a couple of special things going on right now.
29:48
Speaker 1: We do so it's really easy for folks to use
29:50
Speaker 1: our book to do a book study. And we've got
29:52
Speaker 1: a special right now that's happening. They can find that
29:55
Speaker 1: on our website www. Dot Connecting through Conversation dot Com.
29:59
Speaker 1: But for your listeners, we just launched this new online
30:03
Speaker 1: course that is for parents and educators caregivers. It's about
30:08
Speaker 1: two hours total of content broken up into like five
30:11
Speaker 1: to ten or last minute little lessons and folks, if
30:16
Speaker 1: they want to get a discount for that, they just
30:19
Speaker 1: need to put in CTC podcast and that will give
30:23
Speaker 1: them a fifty dollars discount code for the course. If
30:27
Speaker 1: folks want a site license for their building, then they
30:30
Speaker 1: should email us because they would get more of a
30:32
Speaker 1: discount than that.
30:33
Speaker 3: But yeah, for individual they can awesome.
30:36
Speaker 2: And I'm going to link all of that up on
30:38
Speaker 2: the show notes for everyone so that they can find
30:41
Speaker 2: that really easily connect with you, really easily, and that's
30:44
Speaker 2: going to be at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot Com Slash
30:48
Speaker 2: three one zero for episode three hundred and ten. I
30:53
Speaker 2: just want to thank you all for the work that
30:54
Speaker 2: you're doing. I feel like we're sort of soul sisters
30:56
Speaker 2: and this mission for more connection and you know, just
31:00
Speaker 2: a humanistic approach to helping and loving kids, and I
31:06
Speaker 2: really appreciate it. And I'm so glad that you were
31:08
Speaker 2: able to share a little bit of your time with
31:10
Speaker 2: us and some of your wisdom to help everyone listening
31:13
Speaker 2: and all of the kids that they have in their lives.
31:17
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much. This was an absolute pleasure.
31:19
Speaker 4: It was wonderful to talk with you this morning.
31:21
Speaker 2: Thank you.
31:22
Speaker 3: Thank you, Penny.
31:23
Speaker 1: I agree soul, if you love kids, then yes, absolutely
31:26
Speaker 1: wares and think they're the coolest people on the planet.
31:29
Speaker 3: We're definitely related.
31:31
Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, I'll see everybody on the next episode Take
31:34
Speaker 2: Good Care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex Podcast.
31:39
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and
31:43
Speaker 2: don't forget to check out my online courses and parent
31:46
Speaker 2: coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at The
31:50
Speaker 2: Behavior Revolution dot com