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Why the Smart Money in Clinics Is Moving to Pilates · No Appointment Necessary

• 0:00
  Michael: So, welcome to the latest episode of No Appointment Necessary.
• 0:04
  Michael: Today we've got a really interesting guest.
• 0:06
  Michael: It's Lowry from Max Physio and Pilates, but also Max Sona, which is a second company.
• 0:11
  Michael: Interestingly, we have at HMDG, we probably have about 30% of our clinics offering Pilates.
• 0:17
  Michael: It's one of those services that I think lots of people struggle bringing into their business, don't fully understand how to integrate and how to make money from.
• 0:25
  Michael: But actually, the clinics that I know that have implemented it tend to make a lot of recurring revenue, becomes a big money spinner.
• 0:31
  Michael: In fact, I would say at least 50% of the businesses, Pilates makes up at least 50% of their revenue nowadays.
• 0:39
  Michael: I wanted to get someone on who really knows about uh Pilates, how to implement it.
• 0:43
  Michael: We'll talk about uh her original business um to begin with, and then we'll go into the the new business, which is gonna be really interesting for anyone that's looking to integrate Pilates.
• 0:53
  Michael: So welcome Lowry.
• 0:55
  Michael: Nice to nice to have you on.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Michael.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled to be on and uh yeah, delighted to get a chance to chat to you.
• 1:02
  Michael: Yeah, we so normally I just don't like people going on about their background because it's really boring.
• 1:07
  Michael: You know, I went to Birming University and then I did this course and that course.
• 1:10
  Michael: But I think your background is quite interesting to delve into quickly because I think it's informed um your business approaches as well quite a lot, particularly on the Pilates side.
• 1:18
  Michael: So do you want to give us a little rundown on who you are and what your your background history are?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I would love to.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: I studied physiotherapy in Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I graduated in 2010 and immediately trained as a Pilates instructor.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I then moved to the UK.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I spent a couple of years working in the UK and then a couple of years working in Australia.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a really interesting time to qualify, I suppose, in 2010.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it meant that I was trying to increase my skill set as quickly as I could in order to make myself marketable in order to get a job.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so getting Pilates as um a new tool for me was really, really useful because it enabled me to get work in the UK in private practice and then move to Australia.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: And Pilates is huge in Australia, and they have implemented it so well in private practice, and they've been doing it for a lot longer than we have.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I had the opportunity of working in a multi-site physiotherapy clinic, and they had an amazing team of physiotherapists that were also dual qualified as Pilates instructors in all pieces of apparatus.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I worked with them for a couple of years, working with some elite athletes, uh, some amazing uh tennis players and Premier League footballers.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then I moved back to Ireland in 2016 and set up Max Physio and Pilates.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I was really, really interested and keen to bring a similar model of integrated healthcare back to Ireland, where at the time Physio was, you know, maybe in a small room, you would go in, you would have your physio and leave, very much, I suppose, like a cottage industry.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was very keen on to bring a model of care that was more appropriate for looking at after somebody during maybe their healthcare into episode and then afterwards and keeping them well and moving towards more of a proactive approach as opposed to purely reactive.
• 3:08
  Michael: So, what of interest, what made you go into Pilates in the first place?
• 3:12
  Michael: Like what was the thing that made you think, you know what, I really want to get into Pilates?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: I did ballet and gymnastics actually as a kid, and I did loads of horse riding, and I've always been really, really keen and passionate about movement and exercise.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt that when I came out of university, yes, we were learning about, you know, we should be prescribing exercises, but also I felt like I didn't really have a huge repertoire of exercises to prescribe.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I wasn't didn't see myself as uh a strength and conditioning person at the time.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: And Pilates seemed like a much better and more appropriate fit, and it seemed very manageable.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: And what I love is that anybody can do it in their own house to start off with.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need equipment, all you need is a mat.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really, really accessible as well in the earlier stages when you're just doing mat work and uh hopped on a plane, came to the UK, did my course, came back.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: An exam later, there I was a qualified Platte instructor.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it was definitely very accessible and easy to practice and to get the qualification in.
• 4:10
  Michael: What you said about Australia is interesting because when you look at Australia from a tech perspective, and I'm talking about the MSK market, they seem to be far ahead of the UK in many different ways.
• 4:20
  Michael: And and you just said they're far ahead uh ahead of the UK as well in in um the integration of Pilates.
• 4:25
  Michael: Why do you think that is?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as a population, they are definitely more invested in sport than we are.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: They're a very active population, and I think as a result, their interest when it comes to sports medicine um definitely surpasses ours.
• 4:41
  Michael: Do you think do you think, just on that, do you think that the type of clinic owner over there is different to the type of clinic owner over here, i.e.
• 4:49
  Michael: the kind of person that goes into um MSK?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Michael, I I think I can only speak from my own experience of those who I worked with over in the UK, and they were all avid or keen sports enthusiasts, really, really passionate about movement.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I worked in across two different clinics and then eventually in a third one as well, just teaching Pilates and the other two physio and Pilates.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And everybody who I worked with in healthcare is was genuinely passionate and interested in healthcare outcomes rather than doing physiotherapy.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that was a job and perhaps maybe not living the values that they were trying to share with their clients.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas I feel like in Australia, you know, the physios generally were very healthy, very active, really into Pilates, are really into soccer, really into football, and were living or practicing what they preach, I suppose.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: So is that always the same in the UK?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Is it always the same in Ireland?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: I suppose it is similar in Ireland.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we do have a lot of physios who are interested in activities, but I suppose the weather in Australia is so good it's very easy to get out, it's very easy to run, it's very easy to play football because the weather isn't a barrier.
• 5:52
  Michael: Yeah, I was about to say I I have a friend who moved back over to Australia with her children, and she just said she was fed up of her kids being on PlayStation every day because it was pissing it down.
• 6:00
  Michael: And now in Australia they run around and go to the beach on their own, and it's just a different kind of mindset over there, I think.
• 6:06
  Michael: But I think also they the the Australian physios seem to be a little bit more technical and entrepreneurial in some ways.
• 6:13
  Michael: I think tech forms a and health tech in general, from systems, from software and systems to um integrating uh measurement, whether it's value or anything like that.
• 6:24
  Michael: I I it feels like they're just more open to it than they are in the UK.
• 6:28
  Michael: Um and I do wonder whether that's a background thing.
• 6:31
  Michael: And and that leads me on to another um point, actually, which is I mentioned this on the podcast, I think it was with Reese Carter, about um the MBA that he did, and and that whenever I see a clinic owner that's been on one of these MBAs, they always come back a much, much better business person, an entrepreneur.
• 6:48
  Michael: And we were talking about a therapy expert, actually, because we met up and you gambled all your money on the uh the casino, which is quite funny.
• 6:55
  Michael: But we mentioned No, I made money.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: I made money.
• 6:58
  Michael: You did make money as well, yeah.
• 6:59
  Michael: You're you're the only person.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Risk averse.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, risk-so I know when to cut my losses.
• 7:04
  Michael: Exactly.
• 7:05
  Michael: But you mentioned your entrepreneurship program, and and that's been really valuable to you as well, hasn't it?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that uh quite often as physiotherapists, while we have the skills to create excellent patient outcomes, we are not necessarily equipped with the skills for running and managing a business.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so multifaceted, and there's so many aspects that we don't even know that we don't know about.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I was really fortunate two years ago, I did an Irish program called Going for Growth for Female Entrepreneurs, and it was a round table style.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so we had a lead entrepreneur, so she was an accessful, uh successful business owner who had exited several of her companies and then, you know, was a serial entrepreneur.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: And we then all had to share our business problems and and solve each other's problems and also learn from experts.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it was incredibly valuable, and it's so interesting because I suppose I think you learned so much from hearing other people's problems and their solutions.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: And um, it's such a shared learning experience.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So then I had the um, I was lucky enough to be chosen for another program now this year, which is EY Winning Women, and that's a bigger program again.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the businesses are at a different level and they're all very focused on international growth and expansion.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: So now you're learning about a new set of challenges.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so as the business has evolved, it's been really interesting to meet other business owners who are also interested and passionate and growing their businesses and overcoming barriers and challenges.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think that the more people that you can meet, the more you can learn, and the more you can identify actually what do you need to learn?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: What's the next thing?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: You can meet somebody randomly, like I did at Therapy Live.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can meet with different skill sets and you realize, wow, I didn't know that.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I should learn about this.
• 8:39
  Michael: Yeah, and I think it's become quite a common theme actually in in all the podcasts and also when I speak to people is collaboration and listening to other people and finding other people who have been incredibly successful.
• 8:50
  Michael: You know, getting a female founder who's exited five something businesses and and made lots of money, she's obviously learned an awful lot in business.
• 8:57
  Michael: And I think that a lot of skills are transferable.
• 9:00
  Michael: I find a lot of physio clinic owners or MSK clinic owners who sort of sit there and say, I need another person who's run a physio business.
• 9:06
  Michael: That's the only person that can help me.
• 9:07
  Michael: And I don't think that's necessarily true.
• 9:09
  Michael: And I I think you can learn a lot from from other industries as well.
• 9:12
  Michael: And I think it's incredibly valuable.
• 9:14
  Michael: And I wish more people would um go and find other people who have been whether successful in industry or outside of industry, rather than it's my favorite topic, rather than going to the gurus in this industry who we all know who you know spit out the same old bullshit information all the time without having actually actually ever run a real business and and been successful outside of a coaching or guru-led business.
• 9:36
  Michael: So um no, it's really interesting that you did that.
• 9:39
  Michael: Um, talking then of I was gonna ask you what's what's the big skill from your past that has helped you grow your business?
• 9:46
  Michael: Because from the outside, by the way, I think it's worth mentioning this.
• 9:48
  Michael: From the outside, you don't portray yourselves as quite as successful a business as you actually are, but you do have a bit of a mega business.
• 9:56
  Michael: I'm not gonna go into numbers or anything, but it's a seriously, seriously successful business, particularly, and I don't mean this in a bad way, but particularly for Ireland, because I think the Irish landscape is often one of individual practitioners, above a hairdressers in a little room, and you have completely gone the opposite way, where you've built built a little bit of an empire really.
• 10:15
  Michael: What I'm interested in is yeah, maybe maybe what was a skill from your life that has really helped you grow the business, but also what skill, what one skill have you learned from whether it's the Ernst Young program or the the Irish program, what is the one skill that you've learned more recently that's been really important?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, actually, I was even going to allude to this.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think originally I would have been very much a very competitive person and would always have been seeking competition in most interactions, whether it's meeting other clinic owners.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think from doing the EY program and from doing the going for growth program, it has definitely moved me more into like a collaborative approach and figuring out how we can work together more as opposed to being in competition with each other.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that has been one of the most valuable mindset changes that has occurred for me in the past two years.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it has occurred from seeing collaborations occur before, like in front of me, and seeing yes, it can be different industries, it can be similar industries, and it's all about how can people work together and grow together.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something that I've taken from my recent programs from my past.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: My father is an entrepreneur.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he is a manufacturing company, so I probably started working there as 11.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I had my own pony, so I was really, really lucky.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I used to get up and work in the summers from six until one.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how I made my money for my rugs and my saddles, and then I would go horse riding every afternoon.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I would do that like five, six days a week.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, so I did that until I was 16.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And to be honest, it's pretty boring work.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I've still loads and loads of scars and things like that to show.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: But the the the reality is, or was, should I say, you got up, you went to work, you did your work, and you came home and you got paid for it.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And some things are boring and you just have to get used to doing boring things because you can't always get to do the fun stuff.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that it's so important to do something that you don't really want to do or don't enjoy because it does make you treasure when you have an opportunity to do something that you love.
• 12:04
  Michael: Yeah.
• 12:04
  Michael: Have you now stepped out of the clinic uh clinically completely, or are you still doing some clinical work?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: I still do some clinical work and I think it can be a challenge for clinic owners as they grow to try and decide where that line is actually.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: I really enjoy doing my clinical work.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm finding as I'm starting to travel a little bit more because of work, it's harder for me to maintain doing similar clinic days.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I probably do about a day and a half.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then because of different things that I might have committed to, I'm having to move clients around.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: But at the moment, I'm really, really enjoying keeping my toe in and staying relevant.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really, really important is to stay relevant.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I still teach two classes and it's classes as well.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's um yeah, trying to find that mix of being able to provide a really good administrative function as well as trying to look after some of my clients who've been with me since day one.
• 12:50
  Michael: Yeah, how have you managed to um this is a multi-stage question this first is how have you managed to move out of the business and maintain a certain level of culture and a level of standards?
• 13:03
  Michael: Because I think that's always difficult when you when you step out a little bit.
• 13:06
  Michael: Um, and secondly, what systems have you put into place?
• 13:09
  Michael: Because it's very difficult for most clinic owners when they are so central to a business and they they move out of the business.
• 13:15
  Michael: How does it keep running so well?
• 13:17
  Michael: What have you got people that have you've put into place?
• 13:20
  Michael: Have you got systems or processes you've put into place?
• 13:22
  Michael: Really interested how you've done that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that is always a challenge to try and extricate yourself from the business.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that uh a lot of the time when you're trying to grow, you do have to push yourself and you do have to do all of the different jobs at all of the time, and it's the only way you can look at expanding, and then you get to that breaking point and then you you bring somebody in.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that'll really resonate with you.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the only if you want to expand quickly, particularly, you know, this is the only way that you can do it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it always has to be yourself on the line.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I then like my greatest successes have been in the hires that I made, but also I think you can also make some of your greatest mistakes there as well, because if you're really keen to get somebody on board and then you get the wrong person, it takes a long time to repair that sort of damage.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely getting the right staff was one reason I was able to start um taking a step back and providing more of an administrative function.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think that having a lot of processes in place as well.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: So processes and policies so that everybody understands exactly how things are done, and we then use KPIs.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so we would have like three different levels of KPIs in order to ensure that everybody is performing to the standard that we want.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: But one thing we actually brought in last year was we now have a KPI for behavior as well as so we would have, let's say, performance and behavior and to try and reduce any sort of workplace issues and also to really explain to people when they're joining, this is our culture.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: You will be measured on your behavior.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't think this is the right fit for you, don't come on board.
• 14:51
  Michael: That's fascinating.
• 14:52
  Michael: How do you measure behavior?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, look at, and actually, we we took a we closed all the businesses a couple of months ago.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I had already decided, well, I thought the key behaviors were in the business, but actually we got the whole team to do it.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we had everybody in the business come together.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: And what we spoke about was we finally came to what we think our four values in the clinic were.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then we we got uh we asked everybody what they thought were the behaviors that went with these values and the behaviors that weren't with these values.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of it all, we were able to say, actually, guys, this is what we as a team think is appropriate behavior in the workplace.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so then during the KPI meetings, during their yearly reviews, these are the behaviors we're looking to see.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if we're seeing those, it's like brilliant.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: You are living these behaviors that we have decided we want to embody in our workplace.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: But also, if somebody is potentially behaving in a way that we have said we don't want to see, it's very easy to say, but like, do you think this behavior is in line with what we all came together?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, it was um really, really important.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes behavior is the hardest thing to quantify, but also it is the most toxic in a workplace.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: If you have somebody who's not treating everybody else with respect, courtesy, then it can be really challenging or really difficult to challenge.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: So what we've found is by defining these behaviors that we want to see from the outset, it has had a really positive impact on our culture.
• 16:07
  Michael: And interesting that they're not clinical, right?
• 16:09
  Michael: And because I remember you told me we we met each other a few weeks ago now, and you told me what the four values are, but I can't remember them.
• 16:16
  Michael: Do you want to just explain what the four values are?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so they're we just we just picked four words.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was like um, so um community, trust, um, warmth, and I think it was something like sincerity.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: I should know these off the top of my head.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that's um, but they're kind of like what the four of them were.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it was all about that we wanted warmth, warmth in the clinician, warmth in the environment, so we're creating a nice warm space, but then you're also going to have a warm relationship with our receptionist, um, with the Pilates instructor.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so we just kind of picked a value that we've felt was multifaceted and that could be present in every single interaction with a client and a team member between team members, between team members and between management, etc.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: But also we just kind of made it forward so it will be easier to remember.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, not easy enough, yeah.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: Get in trouble with my practice manager later.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah.
• 17:06
  Michael: None of those are clinical.
• 17:08
  Michael: And I think often clinic owners, when they think about any kind of behavior, it always reverts to a clinical kind of setting.
• 17:14
  Michael: And I don't think that's necessarily the best way of doing it.
• 17:16
  Michael: It's I think cultural and how you behave within the the business itself is really important.
• 17:21
  Michael: Like we have a process or policy.
• 17:22
  Michael: If you're a dick, you're gone.
• 17:24
  Michael: Like we don't want anyone who is just, you know, annoying to the rest of the team because it can destroy a team pretty damn quickly.
• 17:31
  Michael: In terms of, I suppose that makes hiring a little bit easier because you you can judge a person based on those values before you get into the interview.
• 17:40
  Michael: Because if you don't have those behavioural values, values, you're probably interviewing purely on clinical, right?
• 17:45
  Michael: And maybe a little bit of personality.
• 17:46
  Michael: But when you have those values, I suppose you go into an interview now really well equipped to to try and judge them against those values as well.
• 17:53
  Michael: What is the one thing you or number of things, what do you look for in a new clinician?
• 17:57
  Michael: Because you said that it was one of the most important things was hiring the right person.
• 18:01
  Michael: How, what do you look for in the right person?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: So we do have KPIs that we measure for performance as well.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that when we are going to find a candidate to join the team, we will have a screening call to find out, first of all, if we think that they are they sound like they're the right fit.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: And we have a list of screening questions, and then we'll follow it up with an interview.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: And generally, the first interview will dig into their understanding of physiotherapy, their knowledge and their approach so that you understand what level of clinician they are.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then the the I suppose the last interview is just completely based on culture and it is trying to find out what makes them tick, um, what are they motivated by?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Are their five-year goals in line with our five-year goals?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Can we make sure that they do align?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Are they going to be a nice person?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Is this a person who I will want um if I'm having a bad day or if somebody's having a bad day, is this somebody you want you want on your team, or is it going to be somebody who's going to drag everybody down?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that when it comes to hiring, it's always, always attitude is key because it doesn't matter how well somebody performs if they are not adding.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because you can always, you can train everybody to get better.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Might take longer than you'd like, but if they don't have the right attitude, then there's you they you just need to get them off the bus.
• 19:23
  Michael: Yeah, skills to be taught.
• 19:24
  Michael: I mean, we we have a few policies.
• 19:26
  Michael: One is can we go on holiday with them?
• 19:27
  Michael: Because we do take the team on holiday.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I'm gonna go on holidays with my staff.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: I only think it's I love that you do that for you guys.
• 19:34
  Michael: It's a really good thing to do and and uh build a good bit of culture there as well.
• 19:38
  Michael: But can we go on holiday with them?
• 19:40
  Michael: Can you trust them as well?
• 19:42
  Michael: And also, I don't like people who just always say no to everything, you know, where you're like, oh, we'd like to try this.
• 19:47
  Michael: Oh, it it hit this is why it's a problem, rather than yeah, okay, let's give it a go.
• 19:51
  Michael: Let's uh here are some issues I see, but let's see if we can we can do something here.
• 19:56
  Michael: And and that's another thing.
• 19:57
  Michael: If people are a no person, we'll never hire them.
• 20:00
  Michael: Um and then finally if someone I used to do this, I don't do this anymore, but you take them for a cup of coffee, and if they don't say thank you to the person serving them, they don't get hired.
• 20:08
  Michael: I don't want people who think they're too big or too smart, too clever, because there's always and my granddaughter says there's always someone better than you, bigger than you, faster than you, stronger than you, and cleverer than you.
• 20:17
  Michael: So so act humbly at all times, you know.
• 20:19
  Michael: I think that's really important as well.
• 20:21
  Michael: Um very quickly when someone thinks they're the superstar.
• 20:25
  Michael: Um so yeah.
• 20:26
  Michael: Okay, uh in terms of let's get on to the the meat of the topic, which is the Pilates side.
• 20:31
  Michael: So, how do you position Pilates now within the clinic?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: I have loved Pilates for a very, very long time and I am very, very passionate about Pilates and also about the health outcomes it can achieve or contribute to uh improving.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: When it comes to Pilates, when it comes to hiring, we really strongly explain in interviewing process that it is 50% of our business.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really, really important component in our business, and so much so that we've had, you know, two people we interviewed recently and they said, Look, actually, I really want to focus on SNC, so I don't think it's the right move because we can see are so Pilates focus.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, that's probably a good move for everybody.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, even from the outset, we are really focused on um Pilates, so new hires coming on board.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: So we we get everybody trained in Pilates, so all of all of our physios are trained as instructors, and then all of our Pilates instructors are obviously trained as instructors.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: For physios, they will all teach as well.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really important that we all have an opportunity to have a balanced caseload.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: When I worked in Australia, I really liked it over there, but it was half an hour appointment and it was an eight-hour day, so it'd be 16 patients in a day.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that means, you know, it could be 60 clients in a week plus teaching classes.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Now, for me, that was fine.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is that, you know, that's not everybody's ideal work life.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: So for a lot of people, having the opportunity to teach classes as well as do physiotherapy, it's an opportunity to mix up their day.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Also, I think when as clinicians, we often we have everybody coming into us and they are coming in with a problem and we're always solving their problems and they're better and they go away.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: For Pilates, everybody's coming in, they're happy and they leave happier.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's actually a very different cohort of people that you're seeing.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: And ideally, you want to transition your people who have problems into the cohort that are happy all the time.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so that is a really nice way for the physios to actually keep seeing their clients who they might already have a good relationship with and keep seeing them and help them to keep getting better.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's really, really nice.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's very important for physios that we do have opportunities that we're not just doing exactly the same thing for 40 hours a week.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think having, you know, there's that old dad, like a rest um a change is as good as a rest.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I think a lot of the clinicians love the fact that they go and teach Pilates for a couple of hours and then they're doing their physio and they get to see their clients progress and they they're also doing something completely different for their day.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's an easy sell.
• 22:50
  Michael: And in terms of um, so you've got your clinician, patient comes in.
• 22:55
  Michael: How how do you make sure that clinicians, because we all know they hate selling, but how do you manage that?
• 23:01
  Michael: How do you get a patient from I've come in with X condition and now the physio pushes them into doing Pilates?
• 23:08
  Michael: How do you do that?
• 23:09
  Michael: Because I imagine there's a lot of objections from the team.
• 23:12
  Michael: I don't want to sell, I don't want to push people into things.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, physios are notoriously terrible at selling, so much so that we used to charge charge for shockwave appointments and nobody ever used the shockwave, so I just made the shockwave free.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, why do I have five of these machines?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like nobody's using them.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And now everybody uses the shockwave a lot more, so at least it's getting its use.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: So for that, actually, we do free introductory classes.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's actually not a sell for anybody if you think your client should be doing Pilates.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Either ideally I'll incorporate it into my sessions towards the end of their rehab.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if we identify, I think a lot of it comes down to as physiotherapists, we always need to be aware of what our clients want.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if you've identified a goal of theirs is to start Pilates, then then it's pretty easy to make sure that you're going to fulfill that goal for them.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: But also it's to get back to the gym and maybe they want something along the way to help, then Pilates is also a really, really great way and a stepping stone to get them there.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe it'll be incorporated into their sessions as a as a treatment.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's the the free introductory classes.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you know, you don't actually have to sell, you can say, Hey, do you want to go to a free class?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's very easy to say that.
• 24:11
  Michael: Because I was going to ask about yeah, where in the patient pathway does it slot in, but essentially anywhere, uh depending on the anywhere.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sometimes from day one.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you'll have physiotherapy and phalates happening at the same time.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: Some clients will be coming in for one-to-ones and coming in for physio, or sometimes it'll be at the end stage.
• 24:26
  Michael: And you do also you do you also get people who come in initially for the Pilates and then kind of go the other route and turn into physio patients?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: The trust that clients have with their instructor, who they see on a weekly basis, is continually deepened by the fact they're seeing the same person, the person knows how they move.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's a really nice transition for them to say, actually, can I come to you for physio?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because you've seen what I've been doing for the past three months.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, in in that sense, it's not even a sell.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Quite often in a class you might say, Oh, how are you?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: You look like your your back is sore.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, Yeah, my back is sore.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it might be as simple as saying, you know, we also do physio, because sometimes people mightn't even know that.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, Oh, great, can I come and see you guys?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's not about selling, it's more about giving information.
• 25:14
  Michael: So it's really integrated in the business then.
• 25:16
  Michael: I mean, it's literally it's max physio and Pilates, but it's physio and Pilates.
• 25:19
  Michael: And you said um 50% um of your business is Pilates.
• 25:24
  Michael: Is that revenue or is that in terms of numbers?
• 25:27
  Michael: How does what do you mean by 50%?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, actually, like looking at the numbers for this year, it's really like it's 50-50 yeah percentage, yeah, for physio and for Pilates.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean like our hours spent, so we'd have slightly more hours spent on Clinico than we would on Pilates.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: So would there be more hours spent on the physio, I suppose.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: So you can see from that that we spend less hours on Pilates would obviously generate the same revenue, which is for any person out there considering it, you know, it's an interesting premise.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because we are obviously all services-based industry.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: So if you can work less on a service and have a have a good revenue, obviously that's ideal.
• 25:59
  Michael: And have happier patients as well, because they're not just in because they're they're hurting.
• 26:04
  Michael: But interestingly, so I presume that next year or this coming year, it'll be even a higher split towards um Pilates, partly because of the recurring revenue model, right?
• 26:16
  Michael: So with patients, if you which is pure MSK patients, if you don't get them into Pilates, they will churn out appointment four, six, whatever it might be.
• 26:25
  Michael: With Pilates patients, it's more of a recurring revenue business.
• 26:28
  Michael: And so over time, the more recurring revenue, the the higher your numbers go without actually doing all that much.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, we've just recently, I suppose, in the we used to do these eight-week blocks um where we were booking our clients back in.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: And with the advent of newer technologies, we've moved completely to an online platform now over the past couple of years and introduced membership.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it is a really nice way to have recurring revenue.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we note that our revenue has stabilized since we brought in the memberships as well.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: So before we would have had peaks, let's say every two months and maybe and then you know a drop every every um every second month.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we have seen since we've introduced the monthly the recurring memberships is that that has really stabilized.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so for any business, that's obviously ideal because it's easier to predict what's going to happen next.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: And also, I suppose if you're ever thinking about taking on, you know, new hires or selling your business or exiting your business, proof of recurring revenue is ideal because that it makes you much more attractive as a business to purchase.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: But also it means if you want to take on a new hire, you can say, right, we know we're going to have this revenue coming in.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: We know what we can pay for.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then also, you know, you can then decide after a while, are you going to introduce more recurring or more memberships?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it does give you a lot of it does give you a lot of control.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Interestingly, though, we are finding because we've been introducing a lot of specialist services, that our Pilates would have been significantly higher than our physio.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: And our physio is just after equal equalizing out in the past year by introducing new specialist services.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think that physiotherapy is a relatively new discipline.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it hasn't really been around that long, but I think that the longer it's around, we're becoming more, we're identifying more areas that we can become more specialists.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, yeah, so you have the stabular health and women's health and male pelvic health.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I think Pilates is just another form, it's just another opportunity for physios to become more specialized in movement.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, strength and conditioning, there you go.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's just another way to specialise and to use your knowledge as a physio.
• 28:18
  Michael: But as a again, as a business benefit, you've got Pilates, which is giving you that predictionable revenue over a period of time where you're not seeing those, as you say, the peaks and troughs, which is the killer of every business when you see these kind of big ups and downs, these swings, you never forecast properly, really.
• 28:33
  Michael: Um, which is kind of interesting.
• 28:34
  Michael: But that brings us on to because we haven't mentioned this yet.
• 28:37
  Michael: Um, you don't just have a clinic.
• 28:39
  Michael: So not only are you growing revenue and stabilizing, you've also opened how many 300 clinics in the past couple of years now.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, no.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: I've opened we've opened we've opened five clinics and we've got a sixth one opening now in January.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: So in the past three years, we've opened up an extra four, and then we've got the the the the our sixth one now in January, which we're really excited about.
• 28:57
  Michael: So I will say that part Which is impressive, and I guess part of that is because you've got such predictability in the revenue and because of the growth, you're able to do all of that self-funded because that's actually quite difficult to do.
• 29:11
  Michael: I think in a period of three years has opened six six new clinics without some external funding of some sort.
• 29:16
  Michael: Five.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well that we'll say five in three years, because uh the first one I opened a long time ago with three children and covics, it slowed me down a little bit.
• 29:23
  Michael: Okay, it's fine, it's still impressive.
• 29:25
  Michael: But I guess that's to do with predictable revenue and and so on, and Pilates will form a big part of that.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think as well, you know, it's been really, really difficult to get physiotherapy staff, and I know that a lot of clinic owners will identify with this.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I felt with Pilates I couldn't get staff a couple of years ago.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: So we actually were taking reformer Pilates instructors because they were easier to source than physiotherapists, and then it came to a point where I couldn't actually find reformer Pilates instructors.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: So then I decided actually, you know what, I'm gonna set up my own reformer Pilates teacher training school.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I can train instructors, I can make sure that they are up to the standard of extra and expertise that we require.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it also meant that you have access to a whole new workforce.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: They don't necessarily need to be physiotherapists, and so they can have a background in whatever it is.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of the time you might have from allied health.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: But we found what was fantastic is that we got a lot of physiotherapy students and strengthen can are maybe sometimes like occupational therapists, athletic therapists who will come and do the reformer teacher training with us.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: They're training to be or to work in healthcare or allied health.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: So you have access to a whole new workforce as opposed to the very, very small physiotherapy pool.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it also means that you can grab these candidates maybe at the start of their career, help them develop, help them understand what they need to do to develop into a really great clinician, help them along the way.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: They can help you along the way.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: So really fulfilling as well.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then we have staff members who are really invested and really excited to be a part of a growing business and developing their own skills.
• 30:58
  Michael: Yeah, I see that a lot more now in clinics, actually, is the excitement around Pilates.
• 31:03
  Michael: I think from business owners, because it it forms such a big part of their revenue very quickly.
• 31:07
  Michael: It doesn't take long to start generating revenue, but also from the team.
• 31:10
  Michael: I think there's a lot of physios who are um, let's say a little bit, whether it's bored or whatever you want to call it, but actually bringing Pilates in gets them quite excited about things again.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and like Michael, there is a huge appetite for Pilates.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think as physiotherapy clinic owners, clients want to do Pilates.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: We are perfectly positioned to provide these services.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: We are leaving money behind us if we're not willing to offer them ourselves.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because, like for a long time, the gym was the only opportunity for people to exercise.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, I was on the radio yesterday and the news presenter was saying, okay, so there's been like an unprecedented rise or interest in Pilates.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Pilates have been around for a long time.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think what is happening now is that there's more awareness as to how long you can do Pilates for.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: I have clients in their like early 80s doing classes.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: You can do Pilates for your whole life.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: So if you can capture this market, you can keep them for a long time, provided you can teach good classes, provided your instructors are good.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that just means that you have a really happy customer base who keep coming back to you, who tell their friends about you.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, they're they're generally quite a happy customer base, but also if if anything happens, they can then of course come into you for physiotherapy.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's this lovely circular model where you're getting people better, you're keeping them better, and if anything does happen, you're making sure they get better again.
• 32:28
  Michael: Yeah, and and there has been an explosion Pilates.
• 32:30
  Michael: So I mean, I I'm a member of Third Space and they do 20, 30 classes a day, maybe more.
• 32:35
  Michael: And you're lucky if you can sign up like within three or four days.
• 32:38
  Michael: I mean, it's it's absolutely exploded.
• 32:40
  Michael: I think one of the, you just touched on it, um, one of the, let's say, pushbacks I hear from clinicians is my clients are all, my patients are all 50 plus, you know, 60s, whatever.
• 32:51
  Michael: Um, and it's just the young kids doing Pilates.
• 32:53
  Michael: Uh, what would you say to that?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: I would agree with anybody who thinks that because at the moment it does, there is like this kind of like vanilla matcha Pilates kind of vibe of all these like really slim athletic girls in their 20s doing Pilates.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, most of our clients are over 50.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that I think as physiotherapists or as clinic owners, we can be more selective about where we choose to position ourselves because there is there is a lot of competition in the market for that cohort that I just described, and actually the cohort that we should be really trying to get, because we know that like, you know, to people who are over 60, they they retain most of the wealth in the world, right?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, really, these are the clients that we all want to be trying to get into the clinic.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so they are really appropriate and suitable for Pilates because a lot of the time starting off, it's low impact, it's very controlled resistant, you know, it's a smaller class.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: The reformers, it's up off the ground, so they're not getting down onto the ground.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: So any of the barriers to maybe mat Pilates are completely removed, and they are just the perfect population for it.
• 33:53
  Michael: Yeah.
• 33:53
  Michael: Um, and I think again, the younger people you you mentioned is quite funny, the matcha influencer kind of Pilates crowd, but they're not necessarily the ones that end up spending long-term money either.
• 34:04
  Michael: They will flip from from place to place.
• 34:06
  Michael: Whereas I think the older Pilates patients, they stick with you, and then of course there's a cross-setting opportunity because you know, you get me into Pilates, I'm injured 30 times a year, so you make a lot of money out of me.
• 34:17
  Michael: In terms of how you marketed the Pilates from the start, like what were the marketing channels?
• 34:23
  Michael: What what really worked for anyone thinking about putting Pilates into their business?
• 34:27
  Michael: Like, how did you market it?
• 34:28
  Michael: And how do you?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Always learning, Michael.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely always learning.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: And when I first opened my doors nine years ago, and it was Pilates was was relatively new, particularly where I moved back to in Ireland.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: I actually, now I'm not advising for other people to do this, but what we what I did to start off, me in my one room, is that I used to do free assessments, free Pilates assessments for everybody.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how everybody started doing Pilates.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I did that for the first couple of months.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then I, by that stage, I think I was running like 14 classes a week.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then I stopped doing free free assessments and then I moved to a bigger place.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually didn't really understand very much about marketing, and it was completely word of mouth was how the business grew.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when we opened our second site three years ago, we then understood even though we had a really, really strong reputation by that stage, you do have to start to consider marketing then.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: And um, like the channels that we use now, we would do our weekly newsletter, we would also have our different social platforms.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: We, of course, have HMDG managing our website, managing our Google ads and making sure that we're well positioned with AI.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then also we would have internal marketing so that the clinicians will all be telling their staff about Pilates.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the time the are sorry, not the staff, they're clients.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so we would have posters up everywhere and we would also have leaflets up because I think that we forget quite often when clients are inside in a clinic, they can very often be in their lizard brain because it's it can be a frightening experience if they're coming in and they're not necessarily thinking, oh, what what kind of they don't have their their their executive functioning switched on and they're not thinking, what cool things can I start doing a max physio?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, oh my gosh, I've got such a bad pain in my neck.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we would even find we have literature um on the counters, we have posters up, we send newsletters, we like literally every single channel that we can hit, we're hitting because you don't know which one is going to land.
• 36:19
  Michael: Do you find a larger proportion of patients come through uh of of Pilates clients, I'd say, come through internal referrals, i.e.
• 36:28
  Michael: the physio patients first, rather than people coming in um and wanting Pilates?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I suppose on a month-by-month basis, probably 30% of our new starters come from the clinic.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: So they'll be like coming from um the physiotherapy and then transitioning into Pilates, and then approximately maybe 70% of the new sign-ups are coming externally.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: So they're choosing to come to us to start doing Pilates because they've heard about us.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that those figures will be precise enough.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Now they're going to be different for our most established clinic, it's probably 50%, but for our least established clinic, it's probably sitting down a lot lower.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: But it's probably sitting at around 30%.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: But as the clinic grows and as you understand your population group and they trust you more, then your conversion rates definitely increase.
• 37:10
  Michael: So let's say your clinic owner, uh bridge clinic, let's say 500k revenue, does pretty well, but wants to bring Pilates into the business.
• 37:16
  Michael: What three, five pieces of advice would you give them?
• 37:19
  Michael: What would you do?
• 37:20
  Michael: Let's say you're if you're that clinic owner.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Michael.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think it's really, really important for anybody.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been getting like a lot more people have started asking me, how can I do this?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: How can I set this up?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: The biggest barrier is space, okay?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I hear time and time again.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have the space.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say, you can still open up a reformer studio.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be right next to your clinic.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's ideal if it is, but I think try and open up the space that you want.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: Try and get a space for what you want that reformer business to look like rather than what you feel like you can afford now.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you build it, they will come.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: And also if you have a team and they already have a background, for example, in allied healthcare, they're going to be knowledgeable.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to be more knowledgeable than most people.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: And quite quickly, you're going to see that actually you can fill up your classes, you can start generating revenue very, very quickly.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: What I see sometimes is that people will.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, my my biggest top, my top pieces of advice actually would be get a space for what you like, just try and figure out what your North Star is.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you want this Pilates?
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Is it so that you can set up a recurring revenue?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to grow your team?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to sell your business?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whatever you decide that is.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and once you know that, then decide, right, what is the space that you need for that to occur?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, if it's like a revenue target, so you're going to have the right space with the right number of machines so that you can achieve whatever that revenue is.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that's number one.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then number two, figure out like which of your staff can you get trained immediately, try and get them all trained at the same time.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you're going to do that, also see can you get some external people trained.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: So try and get everybody trained together and make sure everybody's getting trained by the same people if you can.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so now actually you're going to have a streamlined Pilates method being taught in your studios.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: Get a really good booking system.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: There are loads of them out there.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: I recently got shafted actually by a booking system.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say, you know, sometimes you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prints.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: So definitely do your um do your research.
• 39:06
  Michael: Which one do you use?
• 39:07
  Michael: Which is a good one to use?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we're using Team Up actually, and we're really happy with Team Up.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we're finding them really easy uh to work with.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: We were using a company called WAD before they were Polish, they were excellent, but we they we just we were evolving and we just needed somebody who's going to evolve and move with us a little bit more.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: So we have transitioned to Team Up and we're really, really happy with Team Up.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um we've tried a lot.
• 39:30
  Michael: Team Up's great.
• 39:31
  Michael: We get lots of people using it and they all say it's really great.
• 39:34
  Michael: I only found out not so long ago, um, one of my friends um owned that company and sold it.
• 39:39
  Michael: Uh so he lives around the corner and he's a friend of mine.
• 39:43
  Michael: I only just realized, I was wondering why he's driving around Ferraris, but anyway.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, good on him.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, he did well, and they're also really, really I think you need to work with the company.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like my biggest advice, piece of advice on working or on getting a software company is you need to really be aware that an Every relationship, people show you their best in the first couple of weeks.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: And if what you're not seeing, if what you're seeing isn't amazing, get out get out of their run.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody in the first couple of weeks of the relationship isn't delivering, for example, if they say we're going to do this for you, and if they're not delivering and if they start changing their time frames, you need to get out of that relationship immediately.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's really important for these kind of tech relationships.
• 40:22
  Michael: Just going back because I want the rest of the points, but two questions quickly.
• 40:26
  Michael: The first one is on the space.
• 40:27
  Michael: I think that's really important because everyone says they don't have the space.
• 40:30
  Michael: It doesn't really matter where that space is, right?
• 40:32
  Michael: You could be a mall in the clinic as long as you can open up somewhere.
• 40:35
  Michael: It could be in a in a church hall.
• 40:37
  Michael: Doesn't really matter, does it?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: Probably like a church hall isn't going to work.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: You need to have somewhere that you have full, uh, full use of all the time if you're going to put in equipment.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say you can you can go down the route of math Pilates.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: However, we are becoming more and more aware of the necessity of strength training.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if you want to future proof your business, you want to offer a service that people can can do post-operatively.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: They can do in their 70s.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I definitely heard some of my clients dropping off in their 70s when I taught math because they didn't like getting up and down off the floor.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then subsequently, we went, we started teaching reformer and they came back because they weren't getting up and down off the floor anymore.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, somebody said to me recently, is that not a barrier teaching reformers?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, they found it easier to take part in the class.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't feel, you know, their age was showing as much.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it was really good for getting them back.
• 41:23
  Michael: You also said about um getting the same instruction.
• 41:26
  Michael: I imagine that's for consistency, right?
• 41:27
  Michael: You want everyone taught in the same way.
• 41:29
  Michael: Do you need to be an expert yourself in Pilates to be running Pilates Clinic?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think so.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think so.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think that you do need to have one person who you decide is going to be your expert in Pilates.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think like what we have found.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I I've been doing Pilates for a long time.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm incredibly passionate around it.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then I would have two other members of my team who are really highly qualified and highly skilled in it.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: And at this stage, you know, they're creating the manuals for our we have reformer teacher training.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: We're also developing new types of training for other pieces of equipment.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so they're responsible for doing that.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: I have sign-off, and these are the guidelines and these are the principles, and we we do a lot of the work together.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, you know, they have the knowledge to put some of that manual together and put some of the educational content together.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think the owner needs to be an expert.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think you need to have a bit of information on it.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that if you want to be authentic, you need to have a person you decide in your business who's going to be the expert.
• 42:20
  Michael: Okay, perfect.
• 42:20
  Michael: I just didn't want any clinic only being put off saying, Well, I'm not a Pilates expert.
• 42:24
  Michael: I don't, therefore, I can't implement it.
• 42:26
  Michael: But I think you absolutely can, right?
• 42:27
  Michael: So Absolutely.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm not a women's health expert, but I have three women's health physiotherapists.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we do have a women's health pelvic.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: We she's a specialist, so she she, you know, she but I don't know anything.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know very much about vaginas and vulvas and things like that.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas it doesn't mean we can't offer it as a service.
• 42:42
  Michael: Perfect.
• 42:42
  Michael: Okay, what's your third point?
• 42:44
  Michael: The third tip.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: So my third tip, so no number one was the space, number two was instructors, number three was the tech.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: So they were probably my three big but another important factor for physiotherapy or for allied health owners is, and this is something that we're moving towards doing now, by the way, is creating more community events.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that creating a community is really important.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually more difficult than you would think, but we really need to create communities for our clients because everything is so AI uh driven and we've never been, in some ways, more connected online, but actually more physically disconnected.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think if you can create a community, then it's really going to help your clients get on board with your movement and drive it forward.
• 43:26
  Michael: So when you say community, do you mean you could create micro communities?
• 43:31
  Michael: So you'd have a women's health community or post-native community, you'd have an over 70s community, maybe and break down communities in that way rather than just having an overarching community.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm actually referring to both, Michael.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: So for example, I'm gonna do, we did like last year, we did like a charity event, Pilates and Prosecco.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: This year, overwhelmingly, everybody's coming back saying they want Pilates and Lattes on a Sunday instead.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, ideal.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: So that's for our broader community, and we're gonna do a charity event in each location.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's an opportunity for our different members to get together.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the reports from the last event were so positive.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we made money for charity, which is all brilliant.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then on a smaller scale, we're looking at doing blocks of courses.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we moved to pay as you go because I think that's what a lot of people will have been looking for over the past couple of years.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, we're now gonna move back to doing just blocks of classes.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like there will be certain parts of the year that are softer in Pilates, and quite often they can be maybe a little bit different to when it's going to be softer in allied health.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, there there will be a trend that you'll follow.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, particularly around these times of the year, those particular times, implementing maybe six-week blocks, and then that's creating like a micro community.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: So if that is that a moms and bobs or like a, you know, an antenatal breathing pilates, I think one as we're doing now.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, the women's health guys are in charge of that, which is why my language is a bit fuzzy.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then also looking at maybe stronger for longer or you know, getting fit for Christmas, you know.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: So around these periods of time where you're a little bit maybe you know that your revenue is going to drop a little bit, having these six-week blocks where you're creating community, people are engaged, motivated, and making new friendships.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: So both micro, macro.
• 45:07
  Michael: Yeah, I think and I'm I think pricing strategy is really important uh in in any business, but certainly with with what you're doing there is is I think very advanced, and really thinking through what seasonality looks like and and and bringing in slightly different strategies to make sure that again you have that kind of straight line across your your your business and financials.
• 45:28
  Michael: I think that's it's actually very advanced.
• 45:29
  Michael: I don't see many people doing that.
• 45:31
  Michael: Uh where did you learn that from?
• 45:32
  Michael: Where did you come up with that?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: I did physics and astrophysics um when I finished college.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm obsessed with figures, and then I just thought I wouldn't be able to get a job.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I left and then I went back to school and I got the point so I did physio.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, I have always been obsessed with numbers.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I probably should have been an accountant, to be honest, Michael, because I love yeah, love the numbers.
• 45:53
  Michael: Okay, no, it's very advanced, really good.
• 45:55
  Michael: Um, all right, let's let's talk about the new business because this is next stage evolution.
• 46:00
  Michael: So you've started a new business.
• 46:02
  Michael: Talk me through what the new business is.
• 46:04
  Michael: I don't want this to just be promo, uh and I think people should definitely go and use you anyway for the or at least have a chat with you and if if they think of moving into Pilates.
• 46:11
  Michael: But talk to me about the new business, what it is, and what the ends are.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: The new business is called Maxona, and really I was just trying to solve some of the problems that I had.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I had challenges, I was trying to figure out how I can get the right, like how how can I solve these problems?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: So for reformer teacher training, we wanted to have there's loads of different schools of Pilates teacher training out there.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: We just wanted to have something that was going to be the right standard for us as a physiotherapy clinic.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously, we needed our instructors to be high level to understand about injuries, but also, you know, to have good training.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: So they were going to live up to like what we promised as a brand to deliver.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where the reformer teacher training started.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then it evolved because with the equipment, so I've bought maybe like 70 reformers at this stage, 80 reformers.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, um, and some we've had and some we've swapped out, etc.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: So we bought a lot of equipment.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: And there are there's some brilliant equipment in America, I'm not gonna lie.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: And by the time I was gonna get a ship to Ireland, it was gonna cost so much in taxes and charges.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I just thought there has to be a better way for me to get really good equipment.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then I decided actually there's loads of other things I wanted to track.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that, you know, there's a really interesting, I think more and more people are leaning towards what can we learn from our watches, from our accelerometers, etc.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I thought, right, can we can we do something like this in Pilates?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it was all these small little questions, and it almost turned into a business by accident, where I just thought, right, how can we get this information?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: So we started developing the tech for a smart reformer.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so the idea ideally that our clients can come, uh, because we also know is that if you can track it, if you can measure it, um, then you're gonna want to continue because you you want to see progress.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: We are all inherently a little bit competitive.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so, ideally, that you're gonna tap onto your machine at the start of your class and you can see what force did you use, right, in the context of osteoporosis.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: What calories did you burn?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: What was your heart rate?
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because also we know there was a really interesting study that came out maybe last week, two weeks ago.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know if you're familiar with it.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was like 73,000 people and it was all the data from their wearables.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: And what they found is that like one minute of sedentary, one minute of vigorous activity, like intense activity was similar to like four to nine minutes of light activity.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it all came from wearables, which was really interesting.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, the machine will be able to tell you your heart rate because we we know you you really need to be getting your heart rate up, and then you can clock off.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: So as this was happening, I thought, right, I need a machine that I can put this onto.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, then we we designed and developed our first reformer, and um, that's where we're at now.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just so interesting because you know, when you when you go from having an idea, and now actually we we put the machines into one of our new studios or one of our studios and had a launch last week, and then you see people using your machine, it's the most surreal thing ever, and seeing everybody loving it just as much as you do.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's I think it's it's also terrifying when you decide to change into a separate business.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've I've traditionally worked in a services business.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm in a product-based business.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: And like when I say that it's been a roller coaster when it comes to like learning how you market when you don't have a shop, right?
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: What is my new shop front?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because I actually don't have a shop anymore.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: I have a great machine.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: How am I gonna tell anybody about it?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it has been a really steep learning curve.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: But also then last week was absolutely brilliant to see the feedback we were getting and how much everybody loved it.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then that has made it, yeah, really worthwhile.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just yeah, being really excited now and knowing that all of our studios, as we start to change our machines, are gonna have the best machines.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, wow, not not only do we have the best instructors, the nicest facilities, and now we have the best machines as well.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: And what's even better is that they're like our machines.
• 49:39
  Michael: So busy and manufacture and now having to do with logistics and all the other crap that you have to deal with.
• 49:45
  Michael: Yeah, so just to go through the business again.
• 49:49
  Michael: So you're you're offering the the smart Pilates uh machines, and we're gonna do a nice little um uh link at the bottom where you can go and see what you do.
• 49:57
  Michael: But but you're more than just a uh a company that sells a distributor, a company that sells products, right?
• 50:02
  Michael: Because you're doing the training around it as well, which I think is really important.
• 50:05
  Michael: Do you want to talk more a bit more about that?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so our goal actually is to be a one-stop shop.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you as a clinic owner would like to set up a Pilates studio, then we want to be there from your first reformer to full studio fit out and success.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: And what that looks like is providing the reformer teacher training.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: We then can provide what's called our Pilates Academy.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: So for your newer instructors, and what I see consistently, and I think a lot of physios feel like this as well, when you qualify, you have this piece of paper and then you go out into the world.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, a lot of the time you need somebody holding your hand and helping you along the way.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we have our Pilates Academy.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: So when an instructor is qualified, they can actually dip in and out and you know, attend monthly clinics and get class plans, etc.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we would also have what we call our maintenance club.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like in today's day, um, it's really hard to get good customer service.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: So if something happens to a piece of your equipment that we can help you, hopefully nothing's gonna happen.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but sometimes things do that we can be there to talk you through it and help you figure it out and problem solve it with you, and of course, then be there uh a little bit more if that's what you need.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: So there's four pillars to the business because I think as somebody setting up a Pilates business, you need to have really good training, you need to have really good equipment, you need to make sure your staff are being continually developed.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: We also do some business training with a business module there as well.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then also you need to make sure that your equipment is going to keep ticking over.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: And we also actually offer finance as well.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because do you know, Michael?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would say a big challenge for clinicians or for clinic owners when they want to integrate a new service is generally the cost of it.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: And capital expenditure is always written off over seven years anyway, in Ireland, which can be a right old stinger.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: Is it seven or eight?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it could it can be a right old stinger if you have had a considerable outlay.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I suppose finance is one way you can navigate that a little bit more easily with a monthly repayment as opposed to writing your uh capital expense off over the seven years.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: So we're trying to be that one stop, or we are going to be that one-stop shop that we can be there from the start of your idea to helping you roll it out to making sure it's successful.
• 52:12
  Michael: Yeah, I was going to ask about the because I think one of the big advantages for you is being a clinic owner that's integrated um Pilates into the business and turned it into a recurring revenue um department business.
• 52:22
  Michael: I guess a lot of the the advantage that you have compared to anybody else is if a clinic owner wants to come to you and says, I do want to implement it, you can offer that business advice as well.
• 52:33
  Michael: Um and and really kind of walk them through what's what's needed, and which I think is super important.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's actually been really uh lovely.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've had a few clinic owners reach out to me and I've just been giving them, you know, just giving them help.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: Almost like a like a a friend or uh not like a coach, but just I suppose just sharing all of the knowledge that I have because it's so much easier to do, you know, there's an easy way and a hard way to do everything.
• 52:56
  Michael: Yeah.
• 52:56
  Michael: And you're based in Ireland, Cork, but you do this anywhere, right?
• 53:00
  Michael: You can do this in the UK throughout.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: Everywhere, everywhere.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's the plan.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: India, I've actually been uh definitely India is a market that is massively looking for lots of education.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I have a friend over there who um imports a lot of American equipment.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think, yeah, there's lots of opportunity everywhere.
• 53:15
  Michael: Amazing.
• 53:15
  Michael: And I love the smart nature of it as well.
• 53:18
  Michael: Just talking about that, because everyone's sort of um got their small smartwatch, but they don't I I see very few clinic owners bringing that technology into clinic and then measuring it and then using it to game again.
• 53:30
  Michael: I use this phrase all the time, but gamifying rehab to keep people um coming back because people love it, right?
• 53:35
  Michael: They see a small percentage increase.
• 53:37
  Michael: I talked about this the other in another podcast about the whoop.
• 53:40
  Michael: You know, you see your your whoop age go down by two percent, you're like, yes, and then you're motivated to do you know a few more steps or whatever it is you need to do.
• 53:48
  Michael: And so I think that's a really interesting addition into Pilates is offering that and also for clinicians to keep that recurring revenue up.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think it's really important as clinicians that you know we always need to try and find ways to provide objective measurements because that was what keeps our clients motivated.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, if you can do that as well in Pilates, then it's all it's all just win-win, really, for the client and for the person providing the services.
• 54:08
  Michael: Yeah.
• 54:08
  Michael: In terms of Pilates in the future, where do you see Pilates sort of fitting into wider healthcare delivery in the next three to five years?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think that we're going to see more and more people doing it.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to see more research on Pilates for different cohorts.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: I have a couple of clients with Parkinson's, and I really find their tremors massively reduced when they're on the reformer.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, is it the input, the close-chain nature of the exercises, but I do feel like we're going to see it being integrated more and more.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: There has been some research papers done recently on like kind of the more strength training focused of Pilates and then the positive outcomes for low back pain.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we are going to see more and more people, hopefully doing it particularly for balance, you know, with osteoporosis.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we want to improve your bone mineral density, but actually it's better if people don't fall.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, working on balance, I think is really important.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that definitely down the track, are we going to see more hospitals potentially getting in reformers?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: I hope so.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's something that could potentially happen for rehab spaces and because it is such an easy way to get clients doing resistance who traditionally are not able to do resistance.
• 55:16
  Michael: Do you think there'll be a change in the number of men taking it up as well?
• 55:21
  Michael: Because this is something that never happened with yoga, right?
• 55:23
  Michael: Yoga became incredibly popular, hot yoga as well.
• 55:26
  Michael: And I did go to a session or two, it was awful.
• 55:29
  Michael: Um, don't do it.
• 55:31
  Michael: But you you never saw the sort of uptake in men.
• 55:33
  Michael: I wonder whether Pilates, because that's that's that's a huge revenue opportunity, right?
• 55:37
  Michael: Getting men into Party.
• 55:38
  Michael: I know there are some clinics that you may say we actually have quite a lot of men, but in the main, it's women doing Pilates.
• 55:44
  Michael: Do you think that might change?
• 55:45
  Michael: And and how can you change it?
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think everything is changing.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: Look at the amount of guys getting um aesthetic work done now, you know, guys taking care of their their hair, their skin, their nails.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there is a shift in mindset occurring, which is really, really positive.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: I actually teach two men's only classes every week.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: They're the two classes that I teach, and they're all cyclists, they're all incredibly strong.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so we do have a lot of fun.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think that there is a change occurring, and I think the changes will also be related to outcome.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when somebody can see that their pain has improved and their back pain isn't coming back, then they're going to keep doing it, and then they tell their friend who is back pain.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the what we know is that women talk more than men.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: Guys don't talk as much unless they're talking about football, right, or sport.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: However, guys do talk.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's just slower.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that we will see an increase in the number of men doing Pilates, as we already do.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd say like we're probably like 20% men, 80% women, depending on the site.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like our most established site would be higher than that.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we see we actually see lots of husbands and wives coming together now.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: They retire and they come to the same class.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are some couples and she'd be like, wouldn't be seen with dead but tempt the class.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: So they go to their different classes, but I'm definitely seeing more and more guys in their 60s and 70s um coming along because they see the health benefits.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: They feel stronger and they feel fitter.
• 56:57
  Michael: I do need to do it.
• 56:58
  Michael: I I should get into it.
• 57:00
  Michael: I do Yeah, I need to do it.
• 57:02
  Michael: Um, anything that I've missed that I should have asked you about Pilates and bringing it into clinics or or general Pilates at all?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't think so.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: I like I just think that it's about like I think as a business owner, you just need to identify having I think it's important, you know, that you know, that the mouse never ha had the mouse has more than one hole, you know, that you have different opportunities for revenue.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: And also I think sometimes having a revenue stream that has a different like cohort of employees providing the service is also very valuable because it means, you know, if you lose a physio and you have a small physio team, then obviously it's really challenging for you to keep offering your physio services.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas if you have a varied workforce, then it's going to allow you to continue offering your services and you're going to be less exposed.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say if you were thinking of doing it, reach out to me if you have any questions.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_02: I can't, I can't see myself stopping for another while.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think that we've had amazing success in really small communities.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think don't forget about small communities.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: Quite often people think, oh, I need to be in a big city or I need to.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, you don't.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like I think the town that we set up in was like 5,000 people and we offer like 45 classes a week and the occupancy rate is really high.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, just go for it.
• 58:14
  Michael: Okay, good.
• 58:15
  Michael: Um, how do people get in touch with you?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, you can find me on Instagram.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm Lowry Physio Palates.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also on LinkedIn as Lowry O'Mahany.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then our actual so we have Maxona, if anybody wants information on reformer teacher training or on our equipment, which is M-A-X-S-O-N-A.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then there is also well, Max Physio and Pilates, that's our physiotherapy and Pilates brand.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: But Instagram is probably a good way.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: I always look at my messages as well.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: So if you did have any questions, you could um drop me a message on that.
• 58:46
  Michael: Well, I'll stick all of this in the show notes.
• 58:48
  Michael: And uh, if you're a HMDG customer listening to this, we're gonna do a little deal as well for HMDG customers.
• 58:53
  Michael: So um look out for that.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna um we'll be delighted to offer a 10% discount for any HMDG customers.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so we'll put up a we'll put up a code at the end of the episode.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: And please do reach out if you want any information.
• 59:06
  Michael: Perfect.
• 59:06
  Michael: Alrighty, thanks very much for coming on.
• 59:09
  Michael: It's been a pleasure.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Michael.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: My pleasure also.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: Have a great day.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: See you.