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From Overwhelmed to Regulated: Befriending Your Nervous System with Dr. Kaitlin Harkess · Trauma Meets Recovery Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Trauma Meets Recovery Podcast, where we share stories of resilience, recovery, and hope.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Join us as we sit down with survivors, authors, and leading experts to discuss their experiences and insights, exploring the path towards healing and the power of the human spirit.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now here's your host, Dr.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Mark McNear.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, and welcome to Trauma Meets Recovery Podcast.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Mark McNear, and I am so pleased that you joined us today.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also very pleased to have with me today Dr.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Caitlin Harkis.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Caitlin, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Mark.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm delighted to be here.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we were just talking about trying to figure out time.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: You are in Australia.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: I am.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in Adelaide.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, on Garnoland in South Australia.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: So yes, it's a bit of a maths game, maybe, uh, for us to kind of figure these things out and kind of like a day challenge.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a day ahead.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we've made it.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you were like, I'll see you tonight, tomorrow sometime.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: We are seeing each other sometime, which is um which is a fabulous.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course listeners might be listening to this at a different time.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we all kind of find our way to a time point together.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to ask you if you would be willing to introduce yourself to our listeners and also talk a little bit about your journey and how you've come to where you are right now.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um I we've actually just kind of had this conversation because my accent probably doesn't fit with the fact that I am based in Australia.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: I am originally from Canada.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I grew up in the Rocky Mountains and went to the University of Victoria when I went to study the first time and studied philosophy, which was the most fabulous.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was a fantastic degree and a really interesting place to kind of explore what the meaning of life was, what was really what I was seeking at that time.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I suppose through the challenges I'd had to that point, trying to figure out the why of everything seemed like the natural place to explore.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: During that time period, I found uh the practice of yoga, which was just like the most incredible experience and place uh for my healing, I suppose, in lots of ways, because I would go and I would move and I would be, and it would just be like this moment, and maybe all of that cognitive searching and analyzing, which I had kind of thought might be my path to figuring it out and to peace, got to be put on pause and I could just be.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: And in that moment, I think there really was something much more profound that you know we would describe peace or essence or this connected to like a higher sense or a broader sense of self.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and that was quite transformative.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: So then when I uh finished my philosophy degree and realized that um I might not end up being a philosopher as a profession, I thought I might go back to study.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And what I really wanted to explore was yoga and how that transformation uh happened and unfolded and to be able to share with others.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: At this point, I was teaching yoga because this seemed like the I guess most incredible gift I could then be giving, given that I had received it, holding that space for others.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: And when I went to study, I came to Adelaide, to the University of Adelaide to continue my degree, which is a benefit.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: My mom is Australian, so I had the blessing of dual citizenship and an opportunity to uh multitask travel and study, and did do my PhD looking at yoga as an intervention for chronic stress and psychological distress, and use both psychological measures and um biological measures.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, what that means was taking blood samples and looking at markers of stress or distress, so levels of inflammation, for example, as well as epigenetic measures, which I think is such an interesting area.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe verging a little bit off of who I am in some ways, but um I think this is relevant for listeners.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, epigenetics is a really cool area where we look at the fact that what actually tells our cells or the expression of cells in our body to turn on or off is something often above the layer of our genome.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we all have a pretty common genome, you know, we're all humans, we've got a lot in common.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's this epigenome, so epimans on top, and you can think of the epigenome almost like a tap, like you can turn on cells related to health and well-being, the expression of, um, or turn off maybe those related to illness, ideally.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so we were looking at that in the context of a yoga practice, and what we were seeing was that there was transformation, right?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like this transformation of um how we're experiencing the world, like our perceptions of the world, of ourself, as well as what's happening at that biophysiological level is impacted through this practice.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and what I guess I've moved into and where I've gotten um, I guess, more interested these days, is really the practice of the body more generally.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I recently wrote the somatic workbook, you know, for uh nervous system regulation and anxiety management, and uh very useful in the context of trauma, which will be no doubt uh a place we'll explore today.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: But what I I guess I was reflecting on, kind of exploring is how yoga but by another name, you know, learning to tune into our bodies and be with our bodies and um bring in, you know, worldviews, spiritual practice, reflections that feel appropriate to us and our life is so transformative.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if we can create space and context to learn to be with ourselves uh effectively and in a compassionate and healing way, I think that's where a lot of the transformation happens.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that is kind of my journey to now.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: I work in private practice in Adelaide.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: I do some teaching and um you know continue nerding out researching in many ways.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: What has as you've worked a lot with the body and also worked with people, and when you work with people, you you work with trauma.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: What what have you seen in relation to an individual who's been traumatized and then the body, if that question makes sense?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: It oh, it completely makes sense.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think um we well, maybe some folks they would be hard-pressed to ignore the body when working with trauma because it's such a felt experience, isn't it?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: So um I guess I would define trauma as anything that dysregulates our nervous system in a significant way.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's uh this ongoing debate as to what trauma then is.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's um folks trying to go, there's capital T or small T trauma, but I think we probably don't need to get into that so much and just understand that uh trauma impacts our system, and it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, right?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because if a tiger is coming towards me, uh my body needs to do something, right?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like I need to freeze and hide behind the rock, or I need to run, or if it was a warring clan member, I might have the option of fawning, trying to make myself useful to that individual.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: And our survival system does that before we even think about it, right?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: If I went to go uh cross the road and I step out, I'm gonna be jumping back in a split second without even thinking of it.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then I might notice that there's a truck that's veering past, right?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: There's almost this unconscious response that happens.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the next time I go to cross the road, I might notice that I hesitate before I go to take that step and actually go and double check a couple of times.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: My body's reminding me, hey, this might not be totally safe.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So when we work with clients who've experienced trauma, it's likely that their body is gonna have a reaction perhaps before their mind or whatever we call the mind, before they're aware of it, in different situations.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it might be the case that it's a situation that is remnant, uh, resembles something from the past and is now a safe situation, and it can be really frustrating that our body and then our mind might have a particular response.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I think if we approach it with compassion, we can understand that something has created or created the conditions for this reaction, it would make sense.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: Often we can connect the dots, we can look back at someone's history and go, oh, given all of this, this response makes sense, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like the palpitating heart, the sweating, that urge to run that could be really frustrating if you wanted to attend a friend's birthday party.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, if you looked at a situation that had happened in the past where someone had been circled in a group setting and something really uh distressing had unfolded for that individual, that response totally makes sense.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And what we would want to do is figure out how we then perhaps support someone more and more, like gradually, to be in an environment that is meaningful now, that is safe in this current context, and regulate the body, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like finding ways to ground to be with so we can collect different evidence and our system can become more subtled over time.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think the body becomes quite scary to us when we've had difficult experiences, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because our body hasn't been a safe place to be, because what's been happening around us and to us hasn't been safe.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: So uh being able to be in our own skin and feel sensation can be quite confusing.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there can be almost like sensory disruptions where something might feel really strong or something might be numbed or disconnected.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not necessarily uh a smooth or a standard response we might have.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: And again, all of that makes sense, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Numbing, shutting down, disconnecting, trying to suppress what we're feeling can all make a lot of sense and can now be tricky.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's us figuring out how we uh build the compassion, which I often find is done through understanding, while also then nurture ourselves in in different ways because sometimes we might need to uh increase our awareness of uh sensory or emotional experiences, and other times it's figuring out how we maybe tone that down a little bit.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and I and I think that that idea I was thinking when you were talking about that as as we work with clients, you know, that idea that people are like, what's the matter with me?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of, you know, instead of saying like what happened to me.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when we can switch that, I think when we can switch that or help others, when we can switch it ourselves, and when we can help others switch it, I think it opens up a door of curiosity and the contempt can dissipate.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that the contempt and that that contempt almost like that uh self-repulsion or shame or things that can come up that's like so heartbreaking, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody chooses this.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we're dealt these cards for lack of a way of saying it in our life, and a lot of the time, you know, it's so unfair, the hands that get handed.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: And what's beautiful and I think quite hopeful is that there is a way to kind of heal, you know, and it might be slow and it might be steady, but everyone deserves that, and certainly we all deserve compassion and understanding.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: How do you let's say somebody comes in to see you and and they the body is a war zone?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how do you move gently?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that I was saying that to you earlier.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I love the fact that you talk about moving slowly and gently, and I think that's a key.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could say more about that and then talk about how you move people into just even a little bit of awareness to the body when the body has become like a war zone.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think it's kind of calling it as it is, right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like noting that, and this is where it's you know, it's not all just the body, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think we try and kind of bring some awareness online, and there's psychoeducation that occurs, but noting that it makes sense, that being in one's skin feels unsafe.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: And likely what comes with this is that we've found ways to navigate that war zone, right?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Trying to suppress or uh kind of get rid of those feelings as best we can.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: And often it's those behaviors, those patterns that end up potentially being the reason someone will end up sitting across from us, right?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because the ways we've been coping are are no longer working or causing further harm.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: So finding ways maybe to step down or titrate down those behaviors while building up resourcing in our skin.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the way I I find is helpful to look at it is when we're starting to learn to be in our bodies, is working from the outside in.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: And uh this is really like showing my like 90s reference in life, but in in the Titanic movie of Molly Brown.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Is Molly Brown, I think, the really like the new money that everyone's upset about.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, um, is she uh she's telling uh Leo, and I my gosh, I can't even remember him, Jack, Jack would be his movie name, um, to work his way.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's sitting down for a meal, and there's all these uh knives and forks and cutlery and the bowler plate in the middle, and he has no idea where to start, right?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's an overwhelming situation for him, and she goes start from the outside and work in.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what we need to do with our body, right?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like our hands and our feet are uh I think what I've seen and maybe what you've seen potentially less likely to be as triggering as trying to like feel our chest, our throat, our stomach, you know, these mid-areas in our body.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: So learning to kind of, okay, like how can I feel my hands?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: What's it like to be clenched?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: What's it like to be open, to kind of come into our body in a place that may have less of a history associated with it, or like our feet, like going outside, barefoot, walking on the ground, like quite literal grounding, can be a way to start being in our body, being in our skin to start feeling.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then maybe we go, okay, what's it like to kick a couple of breaths?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: How's that feeling?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if we start to notice our system is starting to uh respond, maybe to start to flood, or there's some discomfort, going back to the extremities, right?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we um titrate, which just means we slowly over time might increase the intensity, which might mean the focus or the awareness or the time that we spend with something, and we use a pendulum model where we might go outside, middle, outside, middle, and kind of go back and forth.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how I work with folks, and uh how that's done really depends on the individual.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: For some folks, it's um something that they might want to bring in with a movement practice, and that movement practice may have a specific name, it may have a specific connotation.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: For others, uh it's very secular and just kind of like figuring out how we use very standard exercises to move our bodies, be in our bodies, draw awareness to our bodies uh in a way that that suits the the person sitting in front.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and if it doesn't, because it's all an experiment, right?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Then we swap up what we're doing and we change.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I have heard you, Caitlin, talk about uh noticing.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then naming and then taming.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Could you could you say more about that?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's uh thank you for bringing that up because it's it's I think really helpful if we can um name.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the first step, notice what's kind of going on inside um our skin, or even in a situation, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: This can work in many different ways, but I'll use it in terms of an uh emotional state.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: So we might notice our shoulders are going up, curling in, constriction, like the stomach kind of twisting, like drop, and we might go, okay, so I'm noticing that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh naming it might be, okay, I'm feeling really nervous, um, or I'm feeling quite anxious, or whatever it might be for that individual.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that starts to tame in the sense that when we can say what we're feeling, what we're experiencing, it's not like it's coming in and flooding and it's this unknown.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: We're naming it.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: We can see it.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's got a name because it's a human experience.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that starts to decrease the um distress associated with the experience we're having.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I mean by it.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Notice name and tame.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love the the fact that you have put a book together on somatic practices, and I'm wondering what that was like for you, what that process was like for you, Caitlin, and and and kind of what you took away from it first, and then we'll talk about maybe what somatic practices are.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's a fascinating experience writing a book, isn't it?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um because what's so beautiful is so I'd always had this tension because as I might have described in the beginning, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: There, there's a nerd component to my being, and I like researching things and I find things really interesting to explore in depth.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there's real joy that comes from getting to explore academically a topic.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that the book, the somatic workbook, is really around bringing that body into awareness.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was a nice pause for me also to uh practice, right?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: And kind of like explore in my own skin, and then, you know, okay, how do I kind of like describe this or what's going on here or research something, kind of get an understanding of the concept, whether it's a practical, like a practice, and kind of go what could be underpinning the effects here, or whether it's a theory around how the body's working, and considering, okay, so how could we maybe tap into uh this uh this lens and build something that's a practice that might be supportive of this?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I I found the experience quite um quite healing, really, you know, just this ability to kind of connect dots too.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: So as you notice in the book, it's got a number of different psychological theories, and I've tried to integrate and net them because I I think really like splicing academic um works or uh clinical treatments, it doesn't make sense when there's so much overlap and maybe framing something in a slightly different way might land and resonate with someone in a way that's effective for them.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I found being able to kind of look at all the similarity and the interconnection, I think really soothing and reassuring.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, when we got towards deadline time, I shouldn't say obviously, my experience of deadline time for the book was um a time that I got to really uh give my nervous system a run for its money and to see uh what it's like to be under that pressure and uh navigate some some more sleepless nights and know that that's okay, you know, that our system can be disrupted, there can be tough times, there can be times when we're feeling overwhelmed, and we can come back from that, you know, that there's flexibility in that, that that's not inherently bad or problematic.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to us about flexibility because I know that you have talked about that in the past and just developing some psychological flexibility.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes we talk about, you know, the window of tolerance.
• 20:09
  unknown: Yeah.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And expanding the window of tolerance.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering if you could say more about that.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And they work together so beautifully, don't they?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure your listeners, because um of all the work that you do, Mark, will be familiar with this, but just in case there's new folks on board.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: So the idea of the window of tolerance is that if you imagine like a window and then I imagine like a wave shape that might move up and down within this particular range, we can cope with that sort of stuff.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: So if if our window is of a particular size, it might mean that uh, you know, someone doesn't go immediately when the light turns green in the morning, and maybe I have to loop the block a couple times to find a parking space.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe quite tragically, I spill my coffee as I'm trying to open the car door or something, you know, and and that that's okay, you know, that I can cope with that.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yet um on another morning or uh for a different person, someone not going at that green light might be, you know, hammer on the horn, a flood of frustration in the body, not finding the parking spot might be that temptation to nudge another car or uh to take a disabled parking spot, even if that doesn't normally feel in alignment with someone's values.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And spilling that coffee, tears, anger, like it can be different things.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: And in that case, it's almost like what's happened is that the the stressors or the pressure are taking us outside that window of tolerance, so into a state of hyper-arousal, which I kind of picture as that red, more anxious, angry state, or we could go into a state of hypo arousal, like a shutdown, dissociative, flat, numb response as well.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, what we what we wanna support folks in doing is expanding the window of.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Tolerance, right?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: So building up our lifestyle, engaging in therapeutic approaches and healing so that our window is bigger and bigger over time.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Additionally, we want to resource folks with skills to move from a state of hyper-arousal back into the window of tolerance and from hypoarousal back into the window of tolerance.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got tools for when we are dysregulated to come back into a more regulated state.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: And psychological flexibility, I think, is our ability to respond when we are in that window of tolerance.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I think of psychological flexibility as our ability to do what matters, what feels in alignment with our values, what's effective in a situation with what's happening inside our skin and outside our skin, right?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I might feel, and I'm using just the mundane warning examples for now, but I might feel that flush of anger as I'm watching that person in front of me sip their coffee or put on their mascara rather than, you know, putting their foot down on the accelerator and taking the green light.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I might be able to take a few breaths, or I might be able to kind of like move my hands together in a certain way, or I might be able to kind of send them some compassion and start to move from that state of hyper-arousal back into my window.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's things like that where I know that's maybe seemingly a simple example, but I also think if we take the simple examples and recognize that that stuff stacks through the day.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: And if we don't have through our life experience to date the skills to navigate that, that adds up and that's exhausting.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've heard you talk a lot about mindfulness and that idea of just becoming aware.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it's really important, like when we're looking at that window and realizing that we're not in that window a lot.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: To notice.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: But to even begin, and and I heard you talk about, I just loved it, that idea of you know congratulating yourself when you realize where you're at, whether whether it's hyper-aroused or whether it's hypo-aroused or whether it's in the window, to be able to just bring some awareness to that.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I I think we sometimes think that if we've noticed we're dysregulated or we're no um no longer paying attention to something in the way we might have uh set ourselves up before, we can go into that inner critic, like, oh, I've done bad, I'm useless, see, everything is terrible.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and I don't know that that's particularly helpful, particularly when the moment we've noticed is the moment we have choice again, right?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like we actually are back in awareness in that moment, and I think that's really incredible.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And if we can find a way to kind of congratulate, to acknowledge ourselves, to delight in our efforts of continuing to show up and try, I think that's quite healing.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's this um this almost this idea of this inner critic and then this positive like self, or it might be called healthy adult, or you know, capital S self, like whatever language we want to use, if we can build up that voice, that part of our being, it can nurture all these areas that we that we might be struggling in.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: So so we talked about earlier, you had talked about rather dysregulation.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and I love Caitlin how you talk about movement as kind of an antidote for dysregulation for people, and and I can speak for myself.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a lot of times during the day that I find myself dysregulated, and it could be something that's really big, or it could be just like a small irritant.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, one of the things that I have found is movement helps so much.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Can you can you uh tell us about that?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the way I like to, it's so corny, but roll with me.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Emotion is energy in motion, you know, it's it's this idea that you know emotion is trying to tell us something, and uh our our system might not be able to differentiate in that moment between a small irritant or something big, and it and that's okay.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of going whatever emotion, whatever energy, whatever the intensity of this dysregulation that's with us, it is, and we can find a way to release it, to move it.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is often where people get stuck, right?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: And particularly, um, you know, you're also uh an academic too, right?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like we we've spent lots of time like learning to analyze things, and I think ironically, that a lot of us then want to try and think our way through what we're feeling when actually our body would benefit from that movement first, we can process, reflect, understand what happened should we need to after, but that that distress is a visceral feeling, right?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's something in our bodies, in our skin.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if we can, for instance, you know, get ourselves outside, go for a walk, maybe we can do some deep breathing, maybe we can do a few push-ups against the wall, maybe we can do some like big breathing exhale, like dynamic exercises, we can bring ourselves back down.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what's really important here is if that distress that one is experiencing is at like an eight, nine, ten out of ten, sitting and doing some like gentle, slow breathing it is probably gonna be problematic.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's unlikely to meet the intensity that we need.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm always encouraging folks to um consider what is gonna match the intensity, what's dynamic, and and we can do this in advance.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: So listeners might uh grab their phones or a piece of paper and start to collate, collect ideas for what they might do if they're at a 10 out of 10 in terms of hyper-arousal, like that strong energy.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it might be okay, I'm gonna do some jumping jacks, I'm gonna do um some breathing exercises I have in the book, or like breath of fire, breath of joy, like something that's more intense or dynamic, or I might put ice water in my face, or I might grab an ice cube, or I might um, you know, do some lion's uh noises or breaths or something.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then from there, then I might go to um maybe some mindful coloring, like using your hands, or I might just stand in one spot and sway, or something that's slowly downregulating, and maybe you'll get back down to those slow exhales, like gentle breathing exercises.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: But if you do that at first, you're gonna be like, this is a terrible exercise.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Why does everyone keep telling me to do this?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: This doesn't work at all, but it doesn't match the intensity, and that's okay.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: And with that, like all the lens that I hope folks have with this is compassion for oneself.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: We don't choose how we feel, right?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have an experience and we work with it.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think compassion and understanding and kindness towards ourselves in figuring this out, and even if it doesn't work, figuring something else out is so healing.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I know compassion needs to be built.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's this concept of um compassion backlash, uh, not backlash, backdraft, you know, where there's like a fire in a house.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if you were like to open the door, um, that fire would whoosh in and it's quite problematic.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we don't want to go so hard on like trying to sit deeply and be with what is and such compassion for ourselves when we're just not there yet.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Again, we want to just go slow and steady and titrate even the most, you know, I'm doing air quotes beautiful concept, could be distressing and contraindicated in a particular situation.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: So going gently, and then I guess to kind of pair in with that dysregulation.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Dysregulation for some of us means that we shut down, that we freeze, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it's there's a trigger, and all of a sudden we're um numb, we're disconnected, everything's kind of feeling like maybe there's perceptual differences, and that's okay too.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: We can come back from that, and it may not be the slow breathing, or it might be slow breathing, building up to body kind of swaying movements to then like some more uh louder breathing exercises or something more dynamic, and then maybe we're doing the jumping jacks or something like that, like finding a different way of coming back online that suits that specific state.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it'll be different for everyone, and I hope it highlights that it's not like a one size fits all.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I love that idea that you're saying that like it's not one size fits all, and it's not, you know, I could do one thing and it might work really well with my nervous system.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: You could do something else, and you'd be like, not feeling it, you know.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that different nervous systems need different attention and even in different seasons.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because something that worked yesterday may not work today, and something that worked five years ago might actually make something feel um more uncomfortable right now, and and that's okay.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we keep updating just like we keep growing.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think there's um beauty in giving ourselves permission to kind of try again, you know, and and to kind of seek that feedback as to where we're at, and a reminder that we haven't done something wrong if something doesn't work, you know, our best friend, therapist, someone can tell us this is the best, do this, and it may not work for us.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Again, going back to what you said, Mark, it's not that we're broken, it's just that that that particular uh exercise in this particular body, context, time, we needed something else.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we had talked about you doing an exercise.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and so if people are driving, I'm gonna tell them.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Don't take your hands off the steering wheel.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: But if people are watching this or listening to this and they're in a safe place, could you walk us through something?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I guess in this, because I'm mindful that this may or may not feel appropriate for everyone.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm trying to find an exercise that um that allows us to have our eyes open because I guess going back just uh another point is sometimes for folks, you know, mindfulness exercises or something, you know, we have this tendency to close your eyes, and that's not safe for everyone.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: So also know if someone tells you to do that, you can always keep your eyes a little bit open.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Totally fine to stay a bit um orientated to this present time.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a breathing exercise, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we need to change our breath in any way, right?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we can work with our breath as it is right now, it's gonna bring in the body, and the body is then a really useful way of noting uh the rate, our breath flow, as well as being able to be in our body.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: And as I talked about the hands and the arms being a more perhaps neutral place to explore, I think this exercise is a useful one to kind of tie those concepts together.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: So it's called paired breathing, and there's different ways we can do it.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna explain essentially what I might call the flying or bird's arm one first, because it's perhaps more easeful to understand, particularly if we're listening.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: But what um what you can do, folks, is having your arms down by your side, do a little sigh exhale out, and with the inhale, reach your arms up overhead almost like you're flying like a bird, and then on the exhale, just bringing your arms back down again.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: So it's an inhale as the arms go up, and then an exhale as the arms go down.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And if it feels comfortable in one's body, it might be an inhale through the nose as the breath goes up, and it might be an exhale through the nose as the arms go down.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: And folks can try that, you know, a number of times just to start to get in the body, and you can even play with, you know, having your fingers, like real awareness into your fingers as your arms go up, and on the exhaling, the arms go down.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing that I like to add into that is imagining maybe on the inhale, you're bringing in all of your energy, your intention, like your forward focus, your values, what you want life to be about.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: And on the exhale, just letting go, releasing slowly a little bit, maybe things that are no longer serving.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's bringing in a bit of metaphor if that feels aligned with folks.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: Some folks will pair color with it, like inhaling a specific color and exhaling a specific color that feels um that feels suited to what they might want to let go.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: And the other way we can do this exercise that's a little bit harder to explain without a visual, but I'm gonna have a go at it because I I think folks will be able to pick up bits and pieces, and if it's not for them, that's all right, um, is to bring the arms out in front almost like you're hugging a tree, which is, I think, a delightful metaphor.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so your kind of fingertips are together and you're hugging that tree.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: And with the inhale, you're bringing your hands towards your heart, like pulling your hands into your heart, almost like they're touching your chest, and then with the exhale, turning your palms back out to the world and pushing out the hands back out further away from the body.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: So inhale, hands, palms come towards you, and then on the exhale, the arms let go.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: And the idea of this one is almost like as you're breathing in, hands are coming towards you, you're pulling in that life energy, that joy, and on the exhale, you're letting go, releasing.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, you're gonna see how quickly or slowly you're moving.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's paired to your breath, right?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: You can see the visual pace of your breath, and you can add on to that layers and metaphors that might feel meaningful to you.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: For instance, you know, you might find that in the morning when you get up, you might do five or ten cycles of one of those exercises, bringing energy in for your day and letting go of um what the system doesn't need in this moment.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: I really, really appreciate it.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, Caitlin, and as we wrap up for today, could you tell people the name of the book again and also give people directions on if they want to find out more about your work, how they can do that?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's the somatic workbook for nervous system regulation and anxiety management, and it's got uh you know over 85 exercises as well as a lot of psychoeducation, like some information about the nervous system, um, evolutionary psychology, psychological flexibility, lots of parts work, and the idea of it all is really getting to the point where you're looking at how you create like a meaningful, a rich life, um, and have those skills, as we discussed earlier, to come back inside and build and expand that window of tolerance.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Folks can find me on the socials at dr Caitlin.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's Caitlin with a K.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or my website is drkaitlin.com, so D-R-K-A-I-T-L-I-N.com.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: And my name's Caitlin Harkas.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: There's um not many of us in the world, so it's fairly easy to Google too.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Caitlin, thank you for this time.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: My absolute pleasure, Mark.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a wonderful um way to start start my day, and I hope to finish yours.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's nice to connect.
• 37:31
  unknown: Thank you.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us on the Trauma Meets Recovery podcast.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: If today's conversation spoke to you, we would love for you to like, subscribe, or share the episode with someone to learn more or connect with us.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Visit our website at trauma meets recovery.com.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, be gentle and kind to yourself.