Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / Childhood Trauma and the Shame We Carry | A Healing Conversation with Annalie Howling
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- Childhood Trauma and the Shame We Carry | A Healing Conversation with Annalie Howling === Annalie Howling: [00:00:00] Shame is a felt sense. It's really hard to put into words. Mm-hmm. It's a feeling. Oh yeah. It's this horrible sensation. The pit of your stomach. It's the thing that you don't want to be mentioned at like dinner tables or it's that like the elephant in the room, right? Like that kind of horrible feeling. When we feel ashamed of something, it's deeply within our body. No one is born with shame, no child enters as well. With shame, we take on shame. It is given to you. Shame is something that we carry, but no one starts like that. But shame is this burden. It's a heaviness that we're weighed down by and we spend time, money, the bandaid fixes trying to hide and disguise something that we think is gonna make us so isolated we can't possibly show it. Like I am ashamed of my shame. If I have it, I don't want you to see it. Right. I'm gonna do. Everything I can to keep you so far away from my Dr. Taz: shame. Welcome to Whole Plus, the podcast that embraces and tackles the holistic way, bringing it all together, science, research, innovations and technology, and our collective human experience. This is where science and spirit come together. I'm Dr. Taz, your host and a double board [00:01:00] certified medical doctor, an integrative health expert, a nutritionist and an acupuncturist. I'm also the founder and CEO of whole plus a digital and clinical platform where my team and I practice evidence-based holistic medicine every single day. I know and I hear all the health and wellness noise that's out there. I want this show to be the one to empower you with the knowledge you need to heal. Not just your body, but your relationships, your communities, and our world. Welcome to Whole Plus. Over the years, one of the things that I've learned for sure is that healing is simply not one dimensional. It is really the accumulation of our five bodies, and we often hold our wounds in many different layers of the body. Over time, it turns into disease, especially when we don't deal with it. I've struggled to be a hundred percent honest in the exam room, trying to lead people and help them deal with these emotional and energetic wounds. That's my motivation and [00:02:00] inviting this next guest. Please meet Anna Lee howling. She's a globally sought after performance coach, a trauma specialist, and the author of Unapologetic Unshackle. Your Shame reclaim your Power. With over two decades of experience, Anna Lee has worked with leaders in business Olympians, Hollywood members of the Armed Forces, including ex UK Special Forces, along with private clients navigating transitions and challenges. But her work goes much deeper than performance. It addresses the universal weight that underpins so much of our collective human struggle. Shame. Through her work and her book, she shares valuable insights on navigating divorce relationships, single parenting, overcoming narcissistic partners, recovering from workplace toxicity, and most importantly releasing family trauma. Please join me in welcoming Anna Lee howling to the [00:03:00] show and to whole plus. All right. Anna Lee, I am so excited to have you here. I have to tell you why I wanted you on the show. I have been working with patients for over 15 years. Between myself and my team, we've probably seen close to 60,000 patients across our clinics, and we work really hard to get people better, right? We really want them to live this vibrant, optimized life. But oftentimes we get stuck and that stuckness is usually around what I'm calling two different layers of the body, the emotional body and the energetic body. Mm-hmm. And as we have the luxury of time to spend with our patients and we're able to sort of unwind their stories and understand what's happened, there's a lot of shame. Yeah, there's a lot of trauma. There's a lot of grief. Mm-hmm. There's this heaviness that no matter how much healthy food or supplements or wellness routines they put into place, [00:04:00] there's a block. And as a medical doctor, I often feel super frustrated in the exam room that I can't lead them past this block, and I know that that's the block. Mm-hmm. And so I think it's really important for us to start talking more about shame and trauma and then not just talking about it individually. Because the other thing that I know for sure and that I've observed honestly over and over again is that you bring your shame and you bring your trauma into a family unit, into a business unit, into a community. And then of course, we can talk about the globe getting way out there. So. That's my selfish motivation for having you here today, and I'm so excited you're here. I know you have a brand new book out. Talk to us about what's happening out there and maybe what was your inspiration for writing this book? Annalie Howling: Oh, thank you so much and thank you for having me here. I feel really, uh, connected to you already. I love that. Um, one of the things I hate the most [00:05:00] is the perfectionism. That is a pathway for shame. Mm. Which is like a pathogen, which is from this wellness routines. Right. The morning routine makes me so angry. It to me it's just yet another. Place first thing in your day for you to fail at. Dr. Taz: Mm. Annalie Howling: So, oh, I didn't make, I didn't home make organic granola. I'm a single mom. I didn't home make organic granola for my daughter. What a, what a slummy cow I am. You know, like I didn't like make a ceremonial matcher journal. Like spoiler alert, I'm a therapist and a coach. I don't, journal doesn't work for me. My handwriting is appalling. It stresses me out right there with you. Yeah. I as my team, yeah. I voice note myself instead and just Wang onto myself. So I absolutely love that you're talking about this because I just feel that as in a lot of places, especially as you'll see with medicine, there is so many of these systems and structures and people, and this links into where I wrote this book. There are people in my space, and I've no doubt in yours, that are not hoping to help people. They are [00:06:00] profiteering from people's pain. And I cannot be with that. I can't stand that. I cannot be with it. And the thing that upsets me the most, and again, I've no doubt the same with you, because when you do work with clients and when you do sit with people and when you do have the honor and privilege of hearing them share things vulnerably, maybe because they're just so broken, they can't hold it in anymore. Right. Which is usually the moment. Probably we both get them. Yep. Me probably later than you because people tend to repress the internal stuff. You know, that maybe you treat the, if the physical body stops you, I don't know. I have a gift of making everybody cry. I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure. But we're kind of linking it. You and I probably, we should, we should do something together, right? So for me, when I get that opportunity and that privilege to, to witness and listen to somebody. And then I see in my space and in yours, people that are ping absolute sort of snake oil and you know, sign up to my course and it's $99 and it'll solve your anxiety. Yeah. And the worst thing for me about that is like if I was buying an apartment, I kind of expect a realtor to give a bit of a [00:07:00] sneeze. You know, I expect that maybe there is a leaky window or it's not all that you know. But when someone is vulnerable, they're in deep pain, they are deeply entrenched in shame and they are reaching out to try and do anything to help themselves and someone knows it's not gonna work. And then when they try and do this thing, oh five other thousand people, it cured their anxiety. They're fine and it doesn't work for you. Guess who wins again? Mm. Shame. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Annalie Howling: I am broken. It didn't work for me. What's wrong with me? Why can't I, I'm the only one. And there are, like I say, organizations and individuals who are sat there just, just continually kind of profiteering from this huge. Audience of people who are so overwhelmed and so vulnerable and the bit that breaks my heart the most desperately trying to help themselves and they are unable to. Right. 'cause the systems in place are not designed to make them better. Dr. Taz: Well, I almost feel like too, in the culture we're in today, like, you know, Instagram and all these things, while we all love them and we're all on [00:08:00] them, right, it almost intensifies or reinforces that message, right? Mm-hmm. Like, because it's like, oh, well maybe I should be doing that, or I'm not as good as that. Or you know, I don't know. It just continues to create this cycle of negativity and self-doubt and I'm not good enough. Mm-hmm. That type of thing. And that's a lot of where the shame comes from too, you Yeah, absolutely. Annalie Howling: The comparison. And I think as well, things that maybe you do like about yourself. Yeah. It makes you question that. Yeah. True. So it's maybe you're like, let's go for body image. Like maybe you are actually, you know, oh, I should be more like this, or I shouldn't be more like that. And we can then be. Questioning even if we, you know, maybe something we did think was quite nice about ourselves, that's, that's not right. Right? And I need to push myself into a different dynamic. So, yeah, I completely agree with you. I think that there are so many ways, systems and places to revalidate our shame, which is deeply entrenched within us, this deeply rooted belief, limiting belief that we have. Um, no one is born with shame. No, no. Child enters this world with shame. We take on shame. It is given to [00:09:00] you. You know, shame is something that we carry. I'm sure we'll get into this from like a variety of other places as I write about in the book, but no one starts like that. But shame is this burden. It's a heaviness that we are weighed down by and we spend time, money, uh, the bandaid fixes trying to hide and disguise something that we think is gonna make us so. Isolated. We can't possibly show it. Like, I am ashamed of my shame. If I have it, I don't want you to see it. Right. I'm gonna do everything I can to keep you so far away from my shame. And that was what happened to me. That's what, what I was trying to do. So you were bearing your shame. Oh my gosh. Dr. Taz: Okay. You've gotta tell us that story, so if you're comfortable, you gotta co tell us that story Annalie Howling: completely. I do wanna trigger warning it though, uh, because I'm gonna talk about self-harm. Yeah. 'cause that was part of my journey. Yeah. Um, so just anyone else that's, that's suffering just to say that I'm gonna go there. Uh, so for myself, I grew up in a very violent childhood. My father was incredibly violent and my mother colluded. So what that meant was when my father would hurt me. I mean, [00:10:00] there was one time that he punched me in the face in a restaurant when I was about seven. And at the time at school, the boys in my classes were going through adolescents and quite often would get nosebleeds. Mm-hmm. I think it was a bit of a, a sort of. A growth journey for boys. Mm-hmm. I remember it was a holiday in Spain and we got back to the apartment that my, my mother hadn't come for dinner. She was hypochondriac and, uh, had looked, I could see her and my father looking between one another, like, oh, this is pretty bad this time. But this was not the first time he'd been violent, but this was like bad. There's blood on and always towards you. Always towards me. Blood on my shirt. You're never her blood on my shirt. Um, and it was like, this is pretty bad. Yeah. You know, what are we gonna do? They looked to each other and I remember they both turned to me and she said, well, you did say you'd never had a nosebleed before. Oh my God. A bit like, well you did say you wanted a puppy for Christmas. Oh my gosh. And I remember standing there thinking, you know, seven, this is the eighties, late eighties. Right. So I'm like, I haven't got a phone. I'm in Spain. Yeah. Can't get home. Haven't got any money, obviously. Can't get any of my needs met. And I remember thinking. The, I was like, this is really fucked up. Yeah. I [00:11:00] knew it was so wrong, but what can you possibly do? And of course, they told me it was my fault and they told me that I was bad and I'd made him do it. And that's what I was told every time he did that. And every time he did that, my mother colluded and corroborated his story and again, validates that I was bad. So what that meant was that I had no safe person in my house. I was effectively alone within my family system. And the limiting belief that I took on from that trauma, from that pain was that. Mm-hmm. I am bad. Shame is a felt sense. It's really hard to put into words. Mm-hmm. It's a feeling. Oh yeah. It's this horrible sensation. The pit of your stomach. It's the thing that you don't want to be mentioned right. At like dinner tables or you know, it's that like the elephant in the room. Right? Like that kind of horrible feeling. But when we feel ashamed of something, it's deeply within our body. And so for me, I am bad was this belief that I internalized and then that became the lens that I saw my world through. I mean, you can imagine the jobs that I did or didn't go for. Mm-hmm. The relationships I found myself in, I'm sure the friendships where I [00:12:00] accepted scraps, to be honest, because I was so bad. So I'm not gonna be, um, asserting my needs in certain dynamics. I'm just lucky to get anything. Right. I'm lucky to get anything at all. 'cause I'm so bad. And this for me, uh, culminated in me. Uh, I talk about it in the book, like going into corporate work. This is before Me Too, or anything like that in sort of real estate and construction was very heavily. Toxically male at that time. Right. I'm not saying it was easy on the guise. It's a tricky industry, but it was right. Very geared towards me being a bit of a corporate cortisone. Mm-hmm. Despite having master's degrees. Right. It was like, right. You know, groped touched, you'll be here to the end of the drinks. Like all these sorts of things. And I think that was almost like Freud would've had a field day with me. Mm-hmm. Like Revalidating kind of that time and you know, constantly trying to outrun this sense of unworthiness. And then I had a huge burnout when I was coming up for 29, and that humbled me to a level that with the body, I just could not keep pushing or outrunning the trauma that I [00:13:00] was trying to, I realized that what I've been trying to do was make myself financially secure. Mm-hmm. Because that would keep me safe, which meant I never had to go back. 'cause home to me was not an option, which, not safe, right? Yeah. I couldn't do like Andy and Devil wear prod and be like, SOS Vogue didn't work out. Like I'm off to, you know, my parents, my daughter, Dr. Taz: my daughter who. Told me she's 17. She was like, dad is stay at home, daughter an option. And he was like, no, you have to go to college. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's not an option for Yeah. But that was like, Annalie Howling: that's not a safe place for me. Right. So it was like, there's no way of going back. So I realized I was trying to outrun, yeah. Like this trauma to make myself financially safe. And then fast forward me going, getting married, and, mm-hmm. My marriage was failing and I had a young, my daughter was really young, she was three at the time, and I found myself in the grips of the worst anxiety I've ever experienced. Dr. Taz: So I wanna stop you for just a minute because I'm listening to this story. First of all, my heart's heavy for you, but secondly, did you ever get help? Uh, so you, you're now married with a child? Yeah. Like, was there any sort [00:14:00] of support or Annalie Howling: help? Not at that time, no. No. So I had been armoring and repressing my shame. Yeah. And what I'd been doing was trying to be really perfect. Mm. So you would've seen, you know, not a hair out of place, not a, uh, you know, the perfect hostess. The perfect, you know, the things, the stuff, the busyness, the all bases covered. Anxiety, fake control. Yeah. You know, going forward through any possible solution or situation to try and make sure that I've planned it all out and got everything covered and I'm completely prepared and there's nothing that can, you know, surprise me or throw me off course because I don't want for a second anyone to see what I'm really like. Mm. You know, I'm trying to keep all this in and, and that then turned into this anxiety, which is a very helpful form of being able to try and have this sensation of fake control. And that's what I was doing. But then, uh, when I got the burnout, when I was suffering from the burnout, a really good friend of mine, this is sort of the first foray into something being different for me, right? Right. She had started this weird woo wacky thing called coaching [00:15:00] mm-hmm. In la right. And this is like 15, 16 years ago. Now we are always a little bit behind in the uk. So whenever you start here, we tend to get it a couple years later because I think we're a little bit more skeptical. We're like, what? So this was not, Wendy Rhodes had not been doing her sexy thing in billions. This was like, what is this weird, you're wearing like hemp trousers and got dream catchers. Right. You know? But she did this visualization for me. And it was so profound because obviously I know now, you know, it got straight into my subconscious. Mm. Got past the noise, got past my defenses that I had layered in. And what it did was it connected me to something that I hadn't had available to me. And it was my, my wisdom, my knowing, my nurture. Mm-hmm. If you like. And I had this vision that was so profound. I can still see it now. And some things really came true from it, which is amazing and still are. And I was like, wow, I need to know everything there is to know about this coaching malarkey. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I went off to go to California mm-hmm. And live there for a time and studied and got, I'm Type A, obviously I got every qualification Right. Getting burnout, you know, so like, I'm gonna go and [00:16:00] like Right. I'm gonna go into all, yeah. Every modality, every type of coaching, every then layer on like certification. Mm-hmm. And that was a way of me starting to change my life out of that career in the industry because I didn't wanna be in that anymore. That was really harming my soul. Right. Being in that industry feeling that was really like adding flames to fire or feeling unworthy that was, that was really not serving me. So while I was doing that, while my marriage was imploding, I was also in the grips of self-harm. Mm. So the way that my self-harm, um, manifested for me was, it's a form of OCD. I'm sure you'll probably see this. I'm laughing because you're a dog. I'd feel like seeing it. Mm-hmm. So it was skin picking. Yeah. It was habitual skin picking. Mm-hmm. But I would, and I write about it really, really openly in the book. I would almost come round, I would always sit in the shower, very ritualized. 'cause the shower was the place I could shut to the door from my then husband and child. It was almost like a safe place. Mm-hmm. Within a, like a private place. I could be. And I now obviously realize that it was me trying to discharge the stress that was living in [00:17:00] my body and came out as a form of this, this OCD, which, which it was for years. What that then leads to is even more shame because it was for me at the time. I was harming myself and I couldn't stop. And it was telling me that I was this weak person. That I was so broken that I couldn't keep this promise to myself to not do it again. Anyone that suffered any kind of, it was mainly picking Yeah. Very habitualize picking. But it was, it was, I mean, I would come round with mm-hmm. Uh, blood on my fingers twice a day, every day for years. Yeah. And it was, uh, and then of course my skin looks terrible. Mm-hmm. So then I'm putting layers and layers and layers of makeup on. You know, I'm like late thirties at this point. Mm-hmm. You know, you look like with acne, seemingly, and Right. And then you're going into all these like very, um, astringent harsh acids and treatments, chemicals. People are gonna try and treat you like that, which is, I now know for me, the exact opposite of what I need to do to care for my face mm-hmm. Is just be really gentle. And that was the thing that changed all of me was being gentle in here. Mm-hmm. And then being gentle here as well. So coming. Thank goodness. At that [00:18:00] time when I was going through that, I actually started doing trauma therapy training around E MDR R. Okay. Yes. So the eye movement desensitization love. Yeah. That's my, that's my modality. That's what I do. Mm-hmm. For all the people that I work with now, the Olympians and the celebrities and everybody. And when I was studying that, it was like a moment that all the planets aligned because the coaching work is brilliant. Coaching is fantastic. If you have a set goal mm-hmm. Great. If you keep getting in your own way Right. If you keep sabotaging something, right. If there are patterns, make conscious or conscious it's gonna get somewhere, but not everywhere. Right. And this for me was this entire full circle moment of not only understanding that I was doing something in my career that was really gonna help people, it helped me understand myself in that moment completely. And because I've done a lot of work in performance coaching. Mm-hmm. I knew all the functional side of the vagus nerve and polyvagal theory, uhhuh, I knew all about that from like functional med and, and um, stress and resilience. And so EMDR, you have to understand the, the physicality of it as well as the impact it's having psychologically. So in that moment it just went ch, ch, ch, ch [00:19:00] and it was so effective for me. And actually I'm, I'm a big tribe Before you buy kind of a girl. Yeah. I'm never gonna recommend anything to crime course I don't believe in or do. Um, and I went for E MDR R myself around the memory of my father hitting me in the restaurant. And you're how old Dr. Taz: at this point? Now? Annalie Howling: When I'm doing the MDR R training. Mm-hmm. Must have been late thirties. Late thirties. Must have been. Just must. My daughter was born when I was 35. So let's just say about 38. Okay. I would guess. Okay. I'm nearly 44 now. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, that'd be about that. And that just was this incredible moment where everything changed because this belief was no longer in my system. The root of my shame had been removed. Mm. I no longer believed for a second, my limiting belief. I didn't believe I was bad. And then at that point, everything in my life started to come into form, come into its own color. And I was also at that time trying to find anything and everything that might help my marriage. It might save my marriage. Right. And I didn't find, spoiler alert, I didn't find it. I'm divorced. Spoiler alert. Didn't find it. But what I did [00:20:00] find was me. And I found these pieces of this girl that either I'd sort of not given up on, but I probably put in a box and just thought, well, let's seal all that one up. That was a fun time, you know? Mm-hmm. Or that can't be available to you in this dynamic or this relationship, or in your life now, or, because I obviously felt very unworthy and all of a sudden I had opportunities coming back to me, and so that's when absolutely everything changed. Dr. Taz: Everything changed. It's so interesting to me, you know that. This pattern of like an abusive home. A dysfunctional home leads to perfectionism, which then leads to self-harm. Mm-hmm. Which then leads to a series of choices that are often not in alignment with really who you are individually as a person or a human being. And I think it takes a long for people sometimes to get to that point, you know? And what I'm hoping is we're talking, if anybody is out there watching or listening and you know, you're feeling sort of this disconnect or you're feeling shameful. There's so many modalities today that are helpful to kind [00:21:00] of pull that out and maybe help to reverse that. But you touched on something that I think is, is also equally important. First of all, I love the whole anxiety, what did you call it? Is fake. Fake control. Fake control. Anxiety is fake control. I think I'm gonna use that as a mantra now. I love that. I think that's brilliant. But, but the other thing that you said, because 28, 29 is also when I got sick. Mm. And it led me down this path of holistic and integrated medicine, but. What was happening to you right at 28, 29? Physically, what were you feeling? Job, the list. What were the symptoms? I'll give you the list because I want somebody sitting out there to be like, wait, that might be happening to me. And no, it's not in my head. I'm not crazy. There's a deeper, if you're not getting a medical diagnosis, there may be an emotional diagnosis. Mm-hmm. Annalie Howling: That needs to be made. So what was happening? You, oh gosh. Happily to tell you. So I remember I was working in the, in the city in London. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, big, nice, all the, all the stuff that you, you in theory need. Right. So I was going to gym. Mm-hmm. I was able to get quality food. You know, I was able to get the things that you might need, right? Mm-hmm. [00:22:00] I had IBS. Didn't know why. So I was going for every kind of intolerance test you can imagine. And I wasn't intolerant to gluten, I was intolerant to my life. That was what I was intolerant to, but I didn't wanna be told that. Right? Because what the hell am I going to do if this life that I've gone into and, and I'm at this age now, how on earth can I change it? So, yeah, IBS very bad. And, and honestly, it got to point where I was like, was it air conditioning? Was it, you know, and my job involved a lot of eating out, right? A lot of very high end Michelin fine dining. Uh, I was uncomfortable, I was self-conscious all the time. Um, skin flareups, pain. Mm-hmm. Like, uh, so some, uh, back pain, which I thankfully don't have at all anymore. Um, yeah, that was very bad. I remember that. Like, uh, I can remember exactly when that happened. And so that would be inflammation, right? What I now know to be candida overgrowth in the gut. Yes. Yeah. But of course no one can tell you that. Right. They're just like, oh, here. I, I dunno about, I think that we probably have a similar system, but it was just like, take this, take this, take this, this, take [00:23:00] that. And I was like, this can't be right. And I wasn't feeling better. And then again, knowing now I think, you know, probably some light depression actually. Mm-hmm. Like some symptoms of that because you're, you know, you are just so uncomfortable all the time and so anxious and self-conscious about things. Yeah. And as I said, I was doing all the right stuff that in theory you should be doing. I'm training, I'm exercising. Right. I've got access to, to good food. I'm eating in Michelin style restaurant. It's not like it's bad food. Right. And yet this is having. Such an adverse effect on me a lot of the time. Uh, and I understand now that I was obviously so inflamed, right? I would've had such candida overgrowth and for me, removing stress and shame and healing all of the, my insides, including with the self-harming, that's the thing that's made the biggest difference. That's the thing that controls my weight. Mm. That's the thing that makes me look not too, you know, younger, a little bit Botox, but nothing else. You know, that's the bit that like, you know, that is what keeps me happy and healthy and pain-free and vibrant. A hundred percent. It's the, it's the, my adrenals must have been so, [00:24:00] oh my God. Shot. I remember I started doing things like, um, look caring for myself in ways like reflexology, for example. Yeah. And they can, I'm quite sensitive to that. Yeah. Like, I'm acupuncture as well, has a really, I'm like instantly like, have the best same out in two seconds. I have the best acupuncture. She's amazing and hilarious. But she will put one in me and I'm like, can I, can I drive later? Like just Right. You know, I really feel my system coming down with it. So for me it was finding my way away from Western Med just being like, there's a, a wound sticker bandaid on it. I'm like, I've got about 55 bandaids on it and I'm not gonna spend every day taking some kind of, I don't know, like Imodium or something. Right. That's gotta be a way of me that's, I need to be able to cure myself instead. This is not a sustainable way to live. And I think that's the, that's the kicker. It's Dr. Taz: like when the list starts getting so long, your injury may be at a different level. Yes. At a different place. For sure. Yeah. And then did you make a marriage decision in that state? Annalie Howling: Yeah. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Annalie Howling: Yeah. 'cause you know, you're working, at that time it was kind of a, you [00:25:00] know, I don't wanna do ex-husband dad, but it was sort of, you know, it's the age, right? When you're looking around, everyone's getting married. Yeah. Everyone's having babies. Right. You've been in a long-term relationship for a while. You are looking around you, your friends are doing it right. It was a good, you know, it was a good. Matching. Right? Like, you know, we're getting on really well. We seem to want the same things in the future. Yeah. So yeah, it was kind of a, it was probably made more with head, but yeah, definitely my physicality was in, in that place was not where as well. It definitely got, at that point though, I was transitioning out of my job through to training and coaching and actually that as soon as I did that, like I say, the gluten tolerance was never a thing. Mm. It was the intolerant to my life life. It was a huge thing. And as soon as I took that step on the path to reclaiming my parts of myself, even though it was like a, you know, a path to carry on, right? Everything started to be different. Like I say, you know, my body wasn't holding on to any excess like weight or anything. And like, you know, you start seeing the results of your training, pain disappearing. Mm uh, all of those things just suddenly started kind of going quite naturally and not having to work as hard at it. 'cause I'm [00:26:00] think all my adrenals and my stress and my nervous system just went quiet. Oh my God. She's, listen, so Dr. Taz: happy. EMDR is the modality that. Attracted you the most healed you. There are other modalities as well. Maybe educate everybody on EMDR in itself. Sure. Like how does that work? Why does it work to release something like shame or guilt or trauma? Explain that a little bit. Annalie Howling: I would, I would love to. Thank you. I do write about this more in the book 'cause it's just to give, um, I'm saying that not as a hard sell, right? Yeah. Just because it is quite a complicated thing and I think this might resonate. It's the other reason I wanna say that. So when we experience trauma, most people know the three main responses, fight, flight, freeze. Mm-hmm. The two that are less talked about, but in my view, hold the most shame flop. Pass out on the spot. Not that one. Fawn is number five. Say that again. Fawn Thorn. Like Bambi, like a little fawn. Oh. Now what fawn is, which is the one that we don't talk about very much, is where we placate our attacker. Dr. Taz: Mm. Annalie Howling: So in my childhood [00:27:00] example that I gave, I became a even more of a good girl to my dad. Because I don't wanna get hurt again. Mm. I don't want my dad to cause me harm. I don't want to me, me being myself seems to cause me pain and harm. I get punched, I get hit, I get told I'm wrong. I get, you know, potentially ostracized from the family. So I better be really good. Mm. And what other people want instead. So I start placating my attacker. Now I'm gonna trigger warning this again. I have a huge amount of clients that come to me for sexual assault. Mm-hmm. And I don't believe I've ever had a client that has come to me. And I've had some of the most wicked examples of completely premeditated attacks that you can imagine. Like genuinely wicked. Every single person that I've seen feels in some way they contributed, they caused it. There was a gray area. Mm-hmm. I'd had a drink earlier that evening. They were a friend of a friend. We'd had a kiss a year before a party. Um, [00:28:00] I'd agreed to something. But didn't want to continue with something else. Mm-hmm. And for me, that is the most essential part of the explanation of the foreign trauma response. So the five trauma responses, as I mentioned, fight flight, please freeze flop form. When if someone was to walk in here right now with a knife, heaven forbid, you and I are probably gonna have, we might have the same response. We might have a completely different one. Our teams are also over here. Right? Right. So there's every chance that we're gonna react in very different ways now that's according to our brains, scanning as quickly as possible, knowing our physical state, our mental state, our energy, what's available to us, all of these things. The key thing that I want absolutely everyone to remember listening to this, is you never, ever get to select your trauma response. Mm. It is chosen for you because people hold shame for their reaction or not reacting. So I'll give you a really easy example is let's just say someone, we have no intellectual control over this, [00:29:00] none. None. None, none. And we hold shame. So the great example is a like a, a lower level one. Let's just say someone was a bit rude to you. Yeah. And you are like, you come away from that and you get in the car and you're like, oh, why didn't I say dah, dah, dah. Like, you have a really good comeback. Right. And you've got like the ultimate answer. Yeah. That's because you probably went into freeze because you're like, it doesn't mean that you're not good at speaking in public. It doesn't mean you haven't got any confidence. It doesn't mean you're a people pleaser and you haven't got boundaries. It means that you were probably quite shocked in a situation that you weren't expecting and your body went, this isn't right. And it just went and just shuck to trauma response in for you to kind of, you know, keep yourself safe in that moment. And then we get back and we give ourselves more shame for not reacting in a certain way or having a, you know, something to say to them. Right. Your prefrontal cortex, though I'm pointing to my head. For people that aren't looking at the front of your brain broker's area language. Mm-hmm. Which sits just behind it. They go completely offline when you're experiencing trauma. Hmm. Totally gone because guess what? I don't need to know what I need from the shop. So what time it is. So a lot of people that have been [00:30:00] attacked, whether it's sexual assault or another kind of attack or something has happened, they often say, I don't remember what they said. I can't remember what they said. 'cause they're Dr. Taz: frozen. Annalie Howling: Right. And it will also mash up times. Mm-hmm. So it could be like, I think I went to the shop first and then I went into the lat. But you can get it mixed up. Mm. 'cause this, this blood is going, it's gone. It's gone to your a amygdala or your limbic system, which is the animal part of your brain, which is the one that is firing. Mm-hmm Your survival instincts, which are also the trauma responses to keep you alive in that moment. Oh my gosh. Now sometimes, lemme go back to an assault example. If you go through the trauma responses, fawn is the only one that's gonna keep you alive. Now I had a client that could be really careful what I say. I had a client that was locked in an area by their assailant. There was no way they could have fought them off. The physicality was completely different, not balanced, freezing, was not gonna help or do anything. In this example, flopping really dangerous. Right? Being completely passing out. Mm-hmm. Uh, and [00:31:00] then the free the fight flight, she couldn't run doors locked. So the only one left available I remember said to me, there was one point that I thought this went on for hours, which is like, there's one point that I thought I was just gonna die. Mm. I just thought I'm gonna die. Mm-hmm. So she'd sort of been in freeze. She'd been in like, you know, and she's like, I just thought, she's like, I said I'm gonna die. And at that moment, and she had so much shame, she's like, I removed my clothes fully. And sort of some things continued. And then she suggested. It just came to her. Why didn't we continue this at a hotel? And thank God she said it, because that's then what got her out onto a fire escape. And someone thank the Lord saw her immediately put her into a safe place called for help. And that's sort of what put an end to that attack, which I hate to think when that could have gone. Oh God. Uh, she had so much shame for doing that. I'm sure she held so much shame. But yet me saying that to you now, [00:32:00] you're like, well, you do anything right. You'd do anything. Totally, totally like me. The US are judging her. No one's thinking it. Everyone's like, that's so horrendous. I would done the same thing. Yeah. And then I have people that are like, well, you know, why did I, like I say, why would I reply to a message that they sent me three months later when they did something like that? Why would I, um, kiss someone back after they touched me in a way I didn't feel comfortable with? And the answer is because you were terrified. Mm. The answer is because you were so afraid. So we have so much Dr. Taz: judgment of people. Like just when you hear stories, right? Mm-hmm. There's so much judgment like, well you could have done this or you should have done that. Right? Or why didn't you? Or, Annalie Howling: and the worst judgment comes from you. Dr. Taz: Correct. You know, like we don't have control over any of that, is what you're saying. Mm-hmm. None. Zero control. None. So the expectation to be able to react in a situation like that intellectually or rationally is completely ridiculous. Annalie Howling: Totally. The other thing that happens is, although the blood is off from your prefrontal cortex in your broker's area, 'cause it's gone through amygdala, your brain is still [00:33:00] tagging 'cause it thinks it might need some information for the future. Almost like building a case. Yeah. Should we say? Yeah. Now what can happen is, let's just say our assailant came in with a red scarf. Mm-hmm. And then thankfully one of your team knocked them out and then we were all fine and we went, oh, that was horrible and scary, but thank goodness your team were on it. Mm-hmm. Um. And then we can I get on my flight home and you go home and Yeah. And then I could be driving and see a flash of red scarf and you could be in a local store and get a smell of perfume or aftershave. That was the same as mine, even from today. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you could go straight into having an anxiety attack and you are like, what's going on? I'm in a safe place. I'm with my family. I am miles away. And then again, you start thinking there's something wrong with you. And then that manifests into anxiety, and then it starts being like, well, I'm just gonna avoid going to the shops because maybe it was being around people. Maybe I'm now having like some acrophobic reactions, or maybe I need to have some different medications. Or maybe I need to, you know, I see people like. This manifests into sort of, [00:34:00] you know, changing everything about their life. Again, this sort of anxiety based kind of fake control because they don't understand what's happening to them and they think, again, there's something wrong with me and shame wins again. Mm. So I really want people to understand you never, ever, ever get to pick your trauma response. And it also doesn't mean you'd have the same one next time. It could well be that, you know, the next time something happens. And if I use the, the earlier example of someone saying something chatty to you, right. You might go, excuse me. Yeah. It depends on the day. Like Yeah. But in, in a very extreme example with assault, the, and that also happens in other situations where there is a really disproportionate level of power or rank. It can happen with narcissistic bosses. Mm-hmm. I gave the example earlier of how I used to work and be touched up and I'd have a boss stood there. Right. One of my bosses has done it to me years ago, you know? Yeah. And I didn't do anything about it. I was terrified. Yeah. Knowing now my childhood situation, I cannot lose my job. Right. I'm saving up money for a house because I can't go back to my home because my parents are horrible, evil people. Mm-hmm. Who hurt me. So I have to keep this job, which means me [00:35:00] going along with supposedly seemingly, was I up for it? Mm-hmm. Was I encouraging it? Did I wear a skirt too short? Right. Did I walk in a certain way? Did I give him a look? Dr. Taz: Yeah. Annalie Howling: Obviously I know now. No, but at that time, you know, not adding onto this, this limiting belief, you can end up, like I say, being in this foreign response in other ways in your life as well. And then the, the layer that lives on top of that, which is another place people shame themselves for is people pleasing. Yeah. 'cause I think most of us never, ever want to get to a place where we are faced with something traumatic or even conflict. So what we try and do is placate. Mm. Because we do not want to find ourselves. With things escalating and becoming difficult, and that's why the book's called Unapologetic. Mm. Because so many times we just say sorry. Yeah. Sorry babe. Sorry. I didn't, I didn't mean I've been talking too much. I didn't mean to take from you. Sorry, darling. I was sorry. Is it, uh, is it okay? I'm so sorry. That is it right? If I just see this here, say sorry. Do you mind if I, oh, sorry. Sorry, sorry if I started crying If you did. The likelihood is the [00:36:00] first thing one of us says is, oh, sorry. Yeah. Because my emotions are too messy and too big and I'm taking up too much space and I really want us to, the shame work for me, shame is a root and it lives so deeply in your system, but we can pull it out and if we get it out, we just stop minimizing and stop dimming ourselves. And we have, we realize we have nothing to apologize for, for being us. Dr. Taz: So powerful. So getting it out. E mdr mm-hmm. Is a method. Yep. Is a method. What are the other methods? Annalie Howling: So another great method is, um, oh, just sorry to answer your first question. So EMDR is where you bilaterally stimulate. Mm-hmm. So the prefrontal cortex stays online along with the amygdala. Mm-hmm. So what that means is quite often you have flashbacks from traumatic memories and things pop into our head all the time. And that means the amygdala is like sort of going live, it's like a, a record, like an old vinyl record that's just going round and round around. Mm-hmm. When you have the prefrontal cortex on as well, because you're bilaterally stimulating with eye movement, tapping or tapping like that you keep all three areas on. So [00:37:00] when people ask you to do breath counting and breath work, when you're feeling anxious, it's because you keep your prefrontal cortex on 'cause of the counting. Ah. No one ever tells you that. No. So it's like, do breath work, and you're like, why? And it's like you're feeling anxious because you're, you're anxious, you're going into your amygdala, your limbic system. You're getting aroused in that sense, your nervous system's being really activated by counting. Your breath, you're keeping your prefrontal cortex online, which means you've got all areas of your brain, if you like, to discharge what's happening. Ah, okay. So that's, that's effectively what we're doing with EMDR, but on a, on a much bigger level to discharge these big memories. So, I'm sorry I cut over there because I wanted to make sure I answered that question. Yeah, Dr. Taz: yeah, definitely. So e with EMDR, I know every person's different. How many sessions? How long is the session? Annalie Howling: I, yeah. So I won't do it online. I think I'd be a gazillionaire if I did Now by now. Yeah. I haven't found a piece of technology that I am comfortable with. Right. Um, whereby I'd be happy to say, because the other thing as you'll appreciate, so when also when you are. Prefrontal cortex is switched off. The funny [00:38:00] or not funny, the kind of, um, paradox of trauma is it becomes a bit like space junk or a bit like a magnet. And so then it starts attracting other things to it, to almost revalidate the shameful belief and other things. So when you open someone up, you can be opening up more than one thing. There can be things that deeply repressed. And so for me, if I'm opening someone up, I wanna personally be there to help them back together again. Mm-hmm. If some other things are coming out. Mm-hmm. So there, but there are other practitioners that do it online. I don't. Um, with me, I tend to do one session, I do one big session. We get into, I go all through childhood, all through family, all through, um, limitations, you know, what might be going on for them. And we pick an event to work on. And due to the fact that it's threaded together in such an intrinsic way, when you, when you pull that string mm-hmm. We pull it all out. I may see someone again for something that's like kind of unrelated, I'll often do a phobia after that. Yeah. I'll often do like big spiders, a single session. Can I do. But that's, I work differently. The only way it would be different would be if, um, it's very recent. So [00:39:00] PTSD is defined as three months on and longer. If something is within three months, that's a recent traumatic event, in which case you treat it differently. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So for example, let's just say we've been in a bank robbery, um, but thankfully we're both okay. Mm-hmm. But we would treat, let's, that was last week. I'd be going through every single element and treating it as an individual session of like, when you first went into the bank, when the first, first came in, when the police arrived. Like we do each one of those. The session after three months, it kind of blobs and merges into one. And we tend to get like one clear memory. And then again, like I say, that can kind of attract and merge with other limitations and beliefs. But I, I think I work in quite a, a different way. This is a blend of a lot of different coaching work and things that I've done, but with me and my clients. I've never needed to see someone more than once for one event. Dr. Taz: Amazing. So with E MDR R then, just so I understand it more completely, I know you're using multiple parts of the brain at the same time. That's the general premise, but how is that actually releasing what I often call [00:40:00] the vibration of shame? Yeah. How is that actually releasing that? So, Annalie Howling: because you get all parts of your brain. I love this question. So because you get all parts of the brain on, we aren't living in that emotional reflex, which again, is the feeling, the felt sense of shame. Yeah. And it is, you feel it, you know, I'm sure you've probably got a few things that are kind of kicking around, right? So there's like a little, there's a list. As we, as we talking, there's probably a few things that come up. I'm aware of that. So, you know, and I had that memory. It went through my head every time. And it was, as soon as the memory came up, the feeling of shame was there as well. It was like so sematic. So when you go through the body, and I do body scan work as well while I'm doing it. Mm. But we have the prefrontal cortex available as well. You get a whole new wave of information if you like. The picture gets colored in. Dr. Taz: Mm. Annalie Howling: So as I start going through the session, you suddenly get people going. Yeah. Actually that wasn't right. They, they had done this first, or, yeah. Or this had happened first or I hadn't done that. And then you go through another, another round of the session, it's like, and they get more and more information. Mm-hmm. They basically get the whole picture in full color. Now when that happens, [00:41:00] immediate and the best part of my job, and I love it, and I should also get paid for anti-aging at this point, because they literally see people's, people's face drop, their shoulders drop, and they're exhausted and they just suddenly go, there was nothing else I could have done. It wasn't my fault. I was just a child. I didn't deserve it. I've always been worthy. It's just unbelievable because what happens is you get self-compassion. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Annalie Howling: Because we have this like confusion when we're just living in that emotional part of the brain. When we don't have all the information, we end up filling in the gaps. And because we're us and we're a bit self-critical, Dr. Taz: right. We don't Annalie Howling: necessarily fill it in the nicest way. We don't go in and being like, oh, I'm sure it was fine. Yeah. Like, you know, anxiety the next day after a big night out or something like that. Or like, oh, why'd you say that? You know, we tend to give ourselves a really tough time. Mm-hmm. So the great news for your audience is you don't have to have a session with me, which is highly privileged. I wrote the book to remove the privilege from being able to come and see someone like myself or you, because the reality of our logistics expectation cost. I get it. Right. So I try to do something that would really make an impact and change people's lives that [00:42:00] was accessible to everybody. So great news, everyone. Cure for shame, self-compassion. Mm. Sounds great. And it is. It's quite hard to cultivate compassion for yourself because what we do is we nibble away at our self-compassion with self-criticism. It's much easier. You listened to me and you, you were so kind, and you said, uh, you're really sorry to hear that. Like you could have pretty such a swell of empathy and compassion for me and my story. And rationally you probably know that you haven't deserved some of the things that have happened to you. Yeah. But we nibble away in that there's some self-doubt, there's some self-criticism. There's a inner, a critic imposter syndrome that, that just starts to diminish that resource for ourselves. So an exercise that anyone can do, and I'd, and I'd really encourage everyone to do this, is if it's a childhood memory, if you can connect to your inner child, great. Mm-hmm. If not, pick your own kid, niece or nephew. Nah, I'm like about Dr. Taz: to go, yeah, let's do it. Annalie Howling: Do it. Dr. Taz: Ah, alright. Annalie Howling: Let's have a moment. Dr. Taz: I know. No, it's just, yeah, it just resonates. So your inner child, I don't [00:43:00] know. We adore everyone, so Yeah. Okay. There's a lot, there's, there's a lot of. I mean, I also came from a dysfunctional home, um, and I was kind of the fixer, you know? So you held the burden. Yes. So I don't know why it's bringing it up as you're talking, so sorry. Please, please don't say sorry. Well, I just said sorry too. Oh my gosh. I just did everything you said not to do. So, I mean, I Annalie Howling: mean that in the most loving way. I know. I know. I mean, as in the, you know, for me it's an honor that you are able to share your emotion with me. Yeah. And other people is an honor to do that. Right. It's incredibly painful. I remember that the memory of my father hitting me, and I, I would obviously, I knew it was wrong, right. But I'd be like, well, probably, maybe I did say the wrong thing. Yeah. Maybe I was a bit too much. Dr. Taz: Well, it's a lot of like when you, this talk and vibration, I don't know why that word keeps coming up for me, but vibration or frequency. But like when there's [00:44:00] that frequency or vibration. Of anger, for example, or violence or, and you kind of grow up a little bit around it. Mm-hmm. And you start walking on eggshells, you know, around it and things like that. Then you do respond in strange ways in your life, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you either become a perfectionist or you try to be the good girl. You played all those roles. Yeah. You know, you try to be the perfect daughter. You think you can fix everyone's stuff, you know, probably why I became a doctor, you know? Yeah. So, but, but it is, it is a thing, and it is. It is something. And so the fact that there's an opportunity to unseat that I think is huge. Have you got, Annalie Howling: obviously you don't need to share it, but can you picture something in your head? Have you got a memory? Totally. I'm ha it's like this as you're talking rough. Can you picture your daughter at the same age you would've been? Can you see her at that age? Yeah. Can you put her in that exact scene and replay it for me? Yeah. So she put her in. It's wrong. [00:45:00] Yeah. It's wrong. And there are multiple of those, you know, so, and would there be anything that she could have done that would No, absolutely not. That's, and that's what I want you to give to yourself. Yeah. And that little girl, no. Was the compassion that there's nothing that she ever did. Yeah. But then for me, you know, I put my, I keep a picture of my daughter at seven in my office. Dr. Taz: Oh. What a great Annalie Howling: for people to be, for me to see. Cool. Yeah. And people to be able to connect to, because that was the age that I was, yeah. When I suffered that particular event, that haunted me. I thought about that every day. Really? For years. Yeah. You know, like when I was taking, stepping, stepping up for a challenge or gonna try for a promotion at work. Yeah. Or put myself out there. And you think, no, don't. Yeah. Because what if you get it wrong again, and then you get hurt and then you get, you know, then you are bad and you get shamed again. Yeah. And I keep a picture of Amber in my office because, you know, it reminds me. And I remember the first time I did that exercise where I put her in that exact situation, and [00:46:00] I'm sure you feel the same. I would, I would kill someone Totally like the My lioness one. Yeah. But also the absolute devastation of the idea of her being that hurt, that afraid, that taking on shame that was never hers. Mm-hmm. Feeling so scared and alone and her having to go back, you know, with those people as in my head, those people like that were causing me so much harm to imagine her in that space. And so this is the exercise I want to, you know, people, there's a childhood memory, like I say, to rerun it with your kid, a friend's kid, your inner child, niece, or nephew. I love that because we do, like I say, we get in our own way with our own compassion. But you rerun that entire scene. With that child and exactly the reaction you just had, the reaction I had, there is nothing Yeah. That that child could have done. Yeah. To deserve that treatment. Not one thing. And if it's an adult memory, I want people to rerun the scene. And you put your best friend. Dr. Taz: Mm. Annalie Howling: In that [00:47:00] particular environment. Scene a scenario. Yeah. And again, you tell me if there's one single thing they said did, drank, whatever, you know, that meant that they, in some way, um, were up for it or deserved it or whatever it might have been. Right. Or did the wrong thing because, and then that empathy that you're feeling turned that towards yourself. Give yourself that self-compassion. And if this is bringing up stuff for people, which I think it probably is the another step that you can take. And actually one of my clients that have, there's client stories in the book that they've gone in and they would've gone in with their real names, but the lawyers had to change it 'cause uh, some of the, um, people involved in the story are still alive. Yeah. So the lawyers have to change names. Yeah. Yeah. So shall we say, I actually put in the book, uh, some names have been changed to give no further platform to the guilty. Mm. I love that. Yeah. No further platform to you. Um, so there's a lot of my story and there's some of my client's stories very raw in there. And one of the most moving stories, incredible client of mine who was assaulted by a teacher when she was 10. [00:48:00] And then after that her mother would come home and if she was in a, a bad temper, would strip her and her sister naked and put them out on the street outside. Oh my God. Yeah. So the assault was never discussed and then would continue to perpetuate shame. And make, you know, such a, such a humiliating experience. And she says, um, I was the first person she told after one session, I was kept it in for 40 years. And she said, the first thing you, the first step is just admitting it to yourself out loud. Stand in front of a mirror. Sit in the car on your own. Just be in a space, say the thing out loud to yourself. And that I didn't deserve it. Mm. So I want to offer that to anyone that this is really resonating because people sometimes I get asked like, do you think, oh, do you think people have a hard time? Like recognizing their shame? And I'm like, no, no. I was like, it's a thing that lives here. Right? Like it's just threatening to come up all the time. It's the stuff, like I said earlier, like if we were at a dinner table, you're like, please. Please don't [00:49:00] go near that subject. You know, please don't talk about, like, when I was attacking my own face and I was in the, the grips of the OCD, I wouldn't want you to talk about marriages not being good. Mm-hmm. I wouldn't want you to talk about skin or skincare or products. Mm-hmm. And I used to find like the whole like glass skin trend. Yeah. So triggering. Yeah. Uh, because that was like so far from where I felt that I was and wearing too much makeup. Yeah. Because I felt I was, because I was trying to cover something up and Yeah. You know, there was like, there would be subjects. So I was so aware of my shame. But now, thankfully, I, I talk that I have had two very distinct lives. I had a life that was very shameful, as in it was full of shame. And I have what I believe now, my kind of second very exciting chapter where I feel completely free. I have a, a shameless life. Like there's truly, and if you're like, does she have no shame? Like, no, none. None. It's all gone. I had loads and now I don't. Dr. Taz: So how do we, thinking about us as mothers mm-hmm. And families, how do we make sure. That we are raising our [00:50:00] children to be unapologetic. Yeah. That our family structure. 'cause I'm even thinking, again, not to overshare of just even our unit where I know like my sweet husband has been through hell and has his own shame. How do we support people within a family unit? Mm-hmm. What's, you know, how do you not gift shame on Yeah. To the next generation. Yeah. Or latch shame onto you from a previous generation. Yeah. How do we. Do deal with all of that. 'cause I know there's the individual, right? But then there's also what we bring in mm-hmm. And how we influence one another. So curious about that. Annalie Howling: So I guess a, a way of, uh, not bringing the past forward is to check in on where you are speaking from. Mm. So am I coming from an I am, am I in a limiting, uh, place right now? I experiencing shame and recognizing that that felt sense is very different to an anxiety. Mm-hmm. Like I say, they, I mean, we could write out our anxious thoughts really easily. Yeah. Like, it's usually very readily available. Yeah. Like all the anxieties, it's like on the constant ticker. But [00:51:00] shame, like I say, is this more sort of this deeper felt sense, this embodied sense. And if we're acting from that place, that's a very different feeling. Uh, so that's something that I would say to be exploring the hereditary, the shame from like, uh, family from before us as well. It's recognizing where those, um, where it's not in the alignment with your values either. Yeah. Like one of the great questions to ask yourself is, is this mine? I'm having this feeling, I'm having this thought, I'm having this experience. Is it mine, right. Or was I given it, you know, I should be doing this, you should be doing that. You should be more like this. Like that is often the language of kind of the inner critic, but the inner critic, which acts as the custodian of your comfort zone, is also trying to make sure that shame never gets a look in. 'cause we wanna keep a lid on our shame. Keep it down, keep it down, keep it down. So that's a good way of kind of checking in on things coming from the past with regards to our children. Yes, there's, there's something that I do, um, with Amber and there's separating them out from any action. So let's just say something has happened or [00:52:00] you're delivering some news, or you're worried about their reaction to something and then we're trying to be really sensitive to what was going on. Or maybe they've done something's a bit crappy, you don't like it. Oh yeah. You know, it does happen. So with her, I always try and separate out my. Love for her and her safety. Yeah. To the action. Okay. So she's younger, right? But it would be, it would go along the lines of Amber. There is not one second that I don't love you. Right? Not one second that I don't love you. However, the thing that you did or that happened was dangerous or I didn't like it because, but my love for you, our relationship, your safety is never in question. Never. But we do need to address the action, the thing, because I always say to her the anytime she, she'll ever hear me raise my voice if she might hurt herself or someone else, like as in, you know, like, really? So, and obviously I don't like any kind of cruelty. Like I'm the most sensitive person and working in this world, so I'm sure you do. Yeah. Like, and talking about the profiteering from pain, I just can't be with any pain. [00:53:00] Yeah. So she knows I we're gonna be like raising my voice if she's running by a swimming pool or something like that, where it could actually be, yeah. You know, please don't do that darling. Like, yeah. Um, but yeah, I separate out her from the action. And then the another thing, you know, I just don't think either you can over love your kids. Mm-hmm. I really don't. Mm-hmm. You can spoil them with stuff. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Annalie Howling: You know, you can make them a bit entitled Sure. With things maybe, but that well of love and connection and safety. You can't go overboard on that. Yeah. Like, you really can't. Yeah. And I think that making sure that they're having this, you know, this ability to discuss things with you at whatever level they can, the safety to have a conversation. You know, potentially there are some, if, if your husband's had a tricky time and he's got some shame in there, generally speaking, he may be trying to take on a role and, you know, feeling ashamed of, of having certain feelings. Mm-hmm. And that again is breaking down communication. So trying to make sure they always stay really open. And then for smaller ones, I have to catch myself not calling Amber A. Good girl. I have to put the words back in my mouth. [00:54:00] And we recently filmed a series. You've met my amazing head of, uh, head of all my, all my brand and everything over there. And we recently filmed this series with a friend of mine and me and my daughter, where I'm speaking to her as I was spoken to and things like, I want you to go over there and give that person a hug. Mm-hmm. You don't wanna go make them feel bad now, do you? Mm-hmm. And the response to that video, and she's going, no, like, sorry. And I'm like, go on, be a good girl. Ah. And it's like the first time that you gave away your autonomy and your agency and, and your needs went so far below someone else. Like a stranger in this case to please your parent. This strange big figure that you don't know and you learn to meet their needs even though you are deeply uncomfortable. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Annalie Howling: And we take on that stuff early. So I, you know, say to say she's tidied up her bedroom or something. I'm trying not to reward her on tasks and acts. I'm trying not to tell her she's a good girl. I, you know, still say thank so much. It's so great. Yeah. It really is. It really is. I'm not, listen, I'm not perfect and I, people will be like, I heard you call her a good gun in the airport. Probably did. Sorry. Sorry. Not so, you know, like I'm trying desperately. [00:55:00] But another way of me trying to validate her as well is not on things she's doing. I say to her, Amber, you know what? You are so easy to love. Oh, I like that. You are so easy to love exactly as you are. I love that because you know, she's beautiful and she is awesome. Mm-hmm. And she is clever and she is sassy as hell. And she's all the things that one toos, Gemini, you know, she's all the stuff like, she's amazing. But I really want her to know that her being her is so fucking lovable. Dr. Taz: Yeah. I love that. And that's how we can support our families. Exactly. And that's how we can parent better. Exactly. Support one another. We talked about EMDR before you leave us today, are there other modalities. That we can use to release shame and trauma. Annalie Howling: Shame is a very, like I said, it's an embodied felt sense and I'm a big fan, uh, much like how I hate the perfect morning routine. I don't wanna be prescriptive for people. Right. So the reason I've written the book in the way that I have is shame cannot survive when we're, you know, bringing it into the light. When we are sharing our stories as expert interview in [00:56:00] there as well. About medical systems. Yeah. About places that we're given it, about, you know, structures and systems that we're given it. There's my stories, there's the client interviews, and as soon as we start opening up and cracking this open, it starts being able to move. Okay? Mm-hmm. Because it is the issues in your tissues. Shame. So I would encourage anyone to do anything somatic based that works for them. If it's breath work, cool. If it's yoga, I mean, yoga is said to be the second best thing. After E mdr R, best of VanDerKolk, the author of the body keeps the score. He advocates for yoga and e mdr R. Mm-hmm. And they're the lowest skin. You don't need to use medication so that if you don't want to. I would genuinely though, if it's, if you're a walking nature person, if you are a. Punch a punch bag person if you are a, um, you know, embodied dance and get some music. I've done that with a lot of clients. I love that. Get some music on and either screamy dance or jump up and down or some kundalini shaking. That's a great one. Like whatever it is that works for you. And again, almost take that act of what works for you rather than what you're being told to do is a kind of step into reclaiming your own power. That this, this mix of it even is what's gonna [00:57:00] work for me today. And then as I say, there's the act, the couple of exercises of working on it more internally as well. Even beginning to just name it out loud to yourself, like, I have drunk the Kool-Aid. I am shameless. I can sit here and talk about all of these things really openly. I don't want anyone to feel any pressure to do that. The first step can absolutely be just admitting it out loud to yourself and being with that and finding a way to work your body through that as well. Walking is an amazing tool because your eyes are bilaterally, scanning the horizon as you walk. So it's actually a really good way of. Tricky conversations are great when I walk as well. 'cause you're side by side with someone rather than like face to face. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. You know, you'll keep, and also with the movement, the actual physical movement, you're discharging stress from your body as you move. Mm-hmm. But it's quite gentle and you, your eyes are scanning the horizon. So maybe that's a good time to take out. You can have my book on an audiobook or you can just be taking some thoughts out with you. Have your AirPods on silent. Yeah, I've done that before. Plenty. Yeah. No one knows you're not listening to something. Yeah. And take your thoughts and your feelings out and just allow yourself to process it as your body is moving gently. Um, and as your [00:58:00] eyes are scanning the horizon, you're gonna be able to keep yourself online a lot more. Mm. I love that. Dr. Taz: So interesting. You know, there are cultures that shame is a through line. Mm-hmm. For women. For children, for families. Oh yeah. You know, I think it still comes back to the individual, right? Even if you're dealing not within a nuclear unit, but a a broader unit, you still come back to you. Annalie Howling: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And you can be the thing that changes everything. I really do believe that. Like this is not a book. Yeah. This is a movement. I love that. I did not write a book. I'm a custodian. Yes. There's my story. Yes, there's a huge amount of me, but this is a movement that we're starting and if everybody takes this forward and becomes, you know, 1% more self-compassionate, they become 1% less. You know, when shame tries, you go, not this time pal. Yeah. You know, if we just go, nah, do you know what? I'm not taking that from you today. Yeah. I'm gonna take myself on a walk or do something kind for me, or just, I [00:59:00] didn't believe you anymore. Shame is a liar. Shame is absolutely a liar. And whatever it's telling anyone right now, even if we just believe 5% less of their lies, that is gonna make it seismic. Shift and this is what's coming. This is the antidote. I say that radical self-love is the antidote to the self-doubt that we're feeling, and that is what we're we are creating right now. Dr. Taz: That's so powerful. So powerful. Thank you so much for taking time out today. Oh, I loved it. I actually, please don't laugh. I actually feel, okay. I do all this energy scanning and all this business, and we have, even within the clinic, we have a tool that can measure vibration and can map out to a certain extent what emotions people are experiencing. Shame comes up sometimes, oh, I bet, guilt. You know, the whole happiness, joy, all of it, like all of it will come up. Every time I've gone and done like an energy session or a Reiki session or any of these tools, I'm always told like, you're blocked. You're blocked, you're blocked. [01:00:00] Literally, as I'm sitting here talking you to you today, I actually feel. Unblocked. Annalie Howling: Oh, I love Dr. Taz: that. You know, I actually feel like someone took something off my chest, you know? Oh, I love that. So that goes back to your point, and I promise I'm not making this up, but that goes back to your point, that shame is a feeling. And then that feelings create disease completely, and feelings create dysfunction. Mm-hmm. And so if you're not feeling good, instead of blaming yourself for thinking what I hear day in and day out, it's in my head, I'm getting old, it's my fault. Like, these are the mantras that we hear over and over again. It might be time to think about something different. Mm-hmm. And try something different. Mm-hmm. So I love that this book is out to guide people. I'm gonna be using it, obviously I need it, so I'll be using it as well. So thank you so much again. And then my last question. Yeah. What makes you whole? Hmm. Annalie Howling: I Dr. Taz: think my girl. Your girl. My girl. My girl. That's, we have yet to [01:01:00] have anyone that doesn't say family. Oh yeah. Annalie Howling: I was gonna say love, but think that's says everyone, family, Dr. Taz: their daughter, their husband, their their family. She Annalie Howling: has a little saying, which I love, and she goes, mommy made my heart feel full. Oh, love that. That's what it made me think. Love. That made my heart feel full. I Dr. Taz: love it. Made my heart feel well. This has made my heart feel full. So thank you so much for taking time out to join us. Where can people find your book? Find you. Annalie Howling: Uh, so it's everywhere. Uh, signed some copies of, it's beautiful. Dr. Taz: Actually, sorry. Start with your question again. Okay. Whoa, people find your, okay. Thank you. Um. So this book incredible. I actually want a copy. I obviously need it. Where can people find your book? Uh, so Annalie Howling: it's everywhere it came out. Uh, we are filming this in New York in May, so it has come out. So it, I've signed some copies. It's barn and so you'll find it. Barnes and Noble, target, Amazon, um, lots of independent bookstores as well. Retailers, it's globally released. It's like it's everywhere. It's in Australia. Incredible. It's in people's hands all over the world. That's what I mean about the movement. It's a movement. It's a movement. Love that. And right now we've got limited edition. You're gonna have one of these, a limited edition cover, A Life Without [01:02:00] Shame. A Life Reclaimed, a Life Fully yours. Such Dr. Taz: important work. I am so glad that you are talking about this. I'm so glad that you've started this movement. Thank you for taking time out to join me today. I really appreciate it. And for everybody else watching or listening, thank you for staying in tune with us on this episode of Whole Plus. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Whole Plus, be sure to share this episode with your friends and family. And if you haven't already, please take a moment to subscribe to this podcast on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. To engage with the community, follow at Live Whole Plus and check out our website whole plus.co. That's HOL ps.co. For more resources and information on holistic health, see you next time.