Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / Tiny Brands Are Outranking Billion-Dollar Companies. Here Is the Hack.

Transcript

Tiny Brands Are Outranking Billion-Dollar Companies. Here Is the Hack. · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

• 0:00
  Everything you know about getting found online is about to
• 0:02
  be obsolete. The algorithm you've been
• 0:04
  chasing for a decade just got replaced, and the AI you're
• 0:08
  using right now is quietly deciding which businesses live
• 0:11
  and which ones die. We're handing the keys to our
• 0:13
  entire economy over to a handful of chat bots that decides who
• 0:16
  gets recommended and who gets ghosted.
• 0:19
  SEO is dead, Google is bleeding traffic, and 90% of buyers are
• 0:23
  now asking ChatGPT to pick their solution before a human even
• 0:26
  enters the chat. The machine is the gatekeeper
• 0:29
  between you and every customer you'll ever have, and if it
• 0:31
  doesn't know your story, you don't exist.
• 0:33
  But that also means for the first time in 20 years, the
• 0:36
  playing field is wide open. Tiny brands are outranking
• 0:39
  billion dollar companies. Unknown podcasts are beating
• 0:42
  Lex. I mean, not mine, but we can
• 0:44
  dare to drink. Why?
• 0:45
  Because the new game isn't about who has the biggest backlinks.
• 0:48
  It's about who tells the clearest story.
• 0:50
  If a stranger asked ChatGPT to recommend someone exactly like
• 0:54
  you tomorrow, would the machine even know your name?
• 0:56
  Or would it just hand your dream client to some buns?
• 0:59
  Competitor? Welcome to AI for founders.
• 1:01
  I'm Ryan Estes. Today, Jenna Hannon, founder of
• 1:03
  Hatter at Get Hatter dot AI, is breaking down exactly how to win
• 1:08
  in the new AI search era. Here are three things you'll
• 1:10
  learn from this episode #1 why Leeds coming from ChatGPT are
• 1:14
  the warmest, most ready to buy leads you'll ever get on a sales
• 1:17
  call, and how to engineer that magic moment on repeat #2 the
• 1:21
  exact content structure LLMS are addicted to right now.
• 1:24
  Short paragraphs, question base headers, stats, frameworks, the
• 1:27
  stuff your competitors are completely ignoring.
• 1:29
  And #3 why press Wikipedia mentions and your own website
• 1:33
  still crush Reddit, LinkedIn, and YouTube when it comes to AI
• 1:36
  citations and how to control your narrative before the bots
• 1:39
  write it for you. Now if you want killer AI
• 1:41
  strategies delivered straight to your inbox every single week,
• 1:44
  head to AI for founders.co and subscribe to the newsletter.
• 1:48
  It's where smart founders go before their competitors catch
• 1:51
  on. Joining is free, leaving is
• 1:52
  impossible, and your future self will thank you.
• 1:55
  And if this show has ever made you feel like you just stole a
• 1:57
  secret meeting from a billion dollar boardroom, drop us a five
• 2:00
  star review. So the algorithm hands it to the
• 2:02
  next founder who needs it. Super grateful for Jenna coming
• 2:05
  back on the show. Please enjoy this episode.
• 2:12
  Jenna, so nice to see you again. So good to see you.
• 2:16
  Yeah, it's great. You'd reached out and you were
• 2:18
  like, hey, can you can we get this like link straightened out?
• 2:22
  And it was like so appropriate because backlinks and internal
• 2:26
  linking and external linking is something that's been fresh on
• 2:28
  my mind. And I was like, Jenna, will you
• 2:30
  come back on the pod and show us what you're up to?
• 2:32
  Of course, for the folks that heard the episode, Jenna is the
• 2:35
  founder of Hatter, which is get Hatter dot AI that helps brands,
• 2:40
  you know, get found. You know, whether that's SEO
• 2:43
  search, Google or LLMS, which is on the tip of everyone's tongue
• 2:47
  right now. Getting those recommendations
• 2:48
  from chat and Claude are are priceless.
• 2:51
  So, Jenna, you're going to show us how to do it.
• 2:54
  All right, awesome. Well, yeah, this is so this is
• 2:57
  going to be a a tactical session.
• 2:59
  We're kind of going to use Ryan as the example of how do you
• 3:04
  show up in AI search results. Perfect.
• 3:07
  So let's let's start with with the basics.
• 3:12
  So the basics are there. There was this old thing over
• 3:14
  here called SEO, which is how do I show up in Google search
• 3:18
  results? And then there's this new thing
• 3:20
  that actually has three different names.
• 3:22
  Some people are calling it AI search, some people are calling
• 3:25
  it answer engine optimization or AEO.
• 3:28
  Some people are calling it Geo, generative engine optimization.
• 3:33
  All of these are terms for the same thing.
• 3:36
  You'll see a lot of LinkedIn posts about how they are
• 3:38
  different. They are not different.
• 3:39
  They are the same thing. It's basically how do you show
• 3:41
  up in AI chat bots? Now, how is that different than
• 3:48
  SEO? The way that the Google
• 3:50
  algorithms worked is Google had a lot more technical requests
• 3:55
  around SEO. These are things like page
• 3:59
  speed, length of your content, how many keywords are in that
• 4:05
  content, backlinks, how many links are pointing to your
• 4:07
  website. And a lot of those links are
• 4:10
  treated the same in the new world of answer engine
• 4:15
  optimization or AI search. It's all about content.
• 4:18
  And so the way that these algorithms, algorithms work or
• 4:22
  these crawlers work is they look at all of the content about your
• 4:26
  company online and then they come up with a summary.
• 4:30
  So a lot of that comes from your website, a lot of that comes
• 4:34
  from social media, press reviews, anywhere you or someone
• 4:39
  else is talking about your brand online.
• 4:44
  What I love about this is it's your opportunity to control your
• 4:47
  narrative because we're moving from, oh, it's technical
• 4:50
  optimizations and there's all this back end stuff that we need
• 4:52
  to do to show up to. It's how you tell your story and
• 4:57
  how others tell your story. Amazing, awesome.
• 5:01
  And it's, it's really cool to see like your growth over the, I
• 5:03
  think we spoke maybe six months ago last and this, this category
• 5:08
  is just absolutely blown up, you know, So, you know, hearing what
• 5:12
  you, you've learned in that time 'cause it's moving so fast will
• 5:15
  be super valuable. Absolutely, Yeah.
• 5:18
  So we we can get into technical, but to one comment on there, I
• 5:22
  think what we've experienced is clients are starting to come in
• 5:26
  to ask and say, oh, when you get that first lead who found you in
• 5:30
  ChatGPT or perplexity, this moment is magical.
• 5:35
  And the reason this moment is magical is because that the way
• 5:39
  that lead searched is now different.
• 5:41
  That person is now doing research in a chat bot.
• 5:44
  They already know they have a problem, they're looking for a
• 5:46
  solution and you come up as one of the few recommendations.
• 5:49
  And so when that lead gets on the call, they are ready.
• 5:52
  So these are really warm leads. It's our clients with.
• 5:55
  They have that magical moment of, Oh my gosh, we got this
• 5:57
  call, someone found us in ChatGPT.
• 5:59
  They already know about our solution.
• 6:00
  They know why they want to work with us and they're they're
• 6:03
  ready to buy totally, which is that that's the light bulb
• 6:08
  moment that I think is going on, going off for a lot of companies
• 6:13
  that's bringing them to say, OK, how do we do more of this?
• 6:16
  Well, the endorsement is so much more valuable too, because your
• 6:19
  ChatGPT is, you know, diagnosed your, your mental pathology.
• 6:24
  It knows what, that weird rash on your elbow is it, it's giving
• 6:30
  you parenting advice. It's, it does everything for
• 6:32
  you. So you're gonna trust it a lot
• 6:33
  more 'cause it's like, it's, it has a narrative.
• 6:36
  It's a person, almost. It's, it's funny, I joke about
• 6:39
  this as my husband, that he talks to chat more than me, that
• 6:42
  he, he asks all his, you know, deep, deep burning questions to
• 6:46
  chat. Yeah.
• 6:48
  Because you're right. You can.
• 6:49
  You can really, you can really get deep in these AI platforms.
• 6:54
  100% I mean, people fall in love with them.
• 6:56
  I mean, but people also eat couch cushions so you can't
• 7:00
  really measure that by the the owl weird, you know what I mean?
• 7:05
  That's that's true. OK, let's, let's, let's get into
• 7:09
  the and how do you show up? So you, you want that aha
• 7:13
  moment, You want that light bulb?
• 7:14
  You want customers saying, Hey, I found you in Cha Chi PT.
• 7:17
  I found you in perplexity. You are one of the
• 7:19
  recommendations in the solution that I, that I was looking for.
• 7:22
  So let's, let's talk about how you do that.
• 7:25
  So there's a few tactical steps. The very first step is, is
• 7:31
  strategy. And this is pretty classic
• 7:34
  marketing strategy. You need to know who is your
• 7:38
  customer? What do you do?
• 7:43
  How is that valuable to them? And now more important than
• 7:46
  ever, how are you different than your competitors?
• 7:50
  So the big thing that you are training the algorithms on is
• 7:54
  that differentiation. Because now in a recommendation,
• 7:58
  you are going to be summarized compared to your competitor set
• 8:02
  and you need to look different than your competitors.
• 8:05
  You need to show up in a way that makes your customers choose
• 8:08
  you. Now when you you talk about one
• 8:12
  quick question here, when you say showing up, there's some
• 8:15
  people are saying that you should be adding markdown files
• 8:17
  to like all of your content so that you're showing up in a way
• 8:20
  that you know the agents can easily read and understand clear
• 8:25
  is that, is that still good practice?
• 8:28
  It's it's, you know, we don't find Markdown as as important as
• 8:31
  structure. Let me, let me show you
• 8:33
  structure. Actually let me, let me, I'll
• 8:35
  hop in and give an example of structure where that matters.
• 8:37
  So I'm going to hop into our tool, which is a tool that we
• 8:42
  use to to run the workflows for AI search execution.
• 8:47
  A lot of it is about content creation.
• 8:51
  So when I say structure versus markdown, let me pop into an
• 8:56
  example of a piece of content for one of our clients.
• 9:04
  So this is the way that the content is structured matters
• 9:08
  more than ever because of the way that LLMS index content
• 9:15
  versus Google. So before Google was taking
• 9:18
  Markdown as here's what this piece of content is about.
• 9:22
  So it was kind of their, here's their fingerprint of the content
• 9:25
  to help us understand why we should point to this page.
• 9:28
  That's why Markdown was so important.
• 9:30
  Now LLMS are actually just reading your page, but the way
• 9:33
  that they're reading it is different.
• 9:35
  They are looking at all these headlines and summaries and
• 9:38
  understanding how do we take what's important out of this and
• 9:41
  condense it. So you'll now see that the way
• 9:43
  content is structured is different.
• 9:45
  It's a lot more about headings, simple text.
• 9:50
  It's actually made content a lot of shorter, which I think is
• 9:52
  great in the world of SEO. It used to be about, oh,
• 9:57
  articles have to be 1200 words, and then you as the user were
• 10:01
  clicking a link on Google and then you were getting into these
• 10:03
  incredibly long articles that you had to parse through to find
• 10:06
  information because that article needed a minimal length, minimum
• 10:09
  length to show up in SEO search results.
• 10:12
  AO search is the opposite. the IT doesn't matter the the number
• 10:17
  of words on the page, it's the information density of that
• 10:21
  content. So your content needs to be
• 10:23
  valuable right away in the shortest amount of words
• 10:26
  possible. Interesting.
• 10:30
  That's an example of structure so different, right?
• 10:33
  I actually think it's much better for the user.
• 10:34
  So a a piece of content like this is much easier to scroll
• 10:38
  and parse than a lengthy, lengthy SEO article.
• 10:43
  Well, it's like the classic You googled a recipe for meatballs
• 10:46
  and they go into a 2000 word essay about their visit to
• 10:50
  Tuscan Valley and you're like. Exactly, exactly.
• 10:54
  And now, now those have like a button that's like jumped to
• 10:58
  recipe because they're like, we needed all of this other stuff
• 11:00
  to show up in SEOAI searches saying no, just give us the
• 11:04
  recipe because that's the only thing we're pulling from in to
• 11:07
  summarize. Cool, and I like this content
• 11:10
  analysis. Here on the hat or dashboard you
• 11:12
  got words, headings, the number of headings, internal links,
• 11:15
  external links, best pools, Riverside mentions, best pools
• 11:20
  river. So talk a little bit about the
• 11:21
  content analysis there. Yeah.
• 11:24
  So these are hints at the type of things that matter for AI
• 11:28
  search. I would say words less.
• 11:29
  So that's just a helpful thing to know how long this article
• 11:31
  is. But the headings are basically
• 11:34
  telling the LLMS what's in this content.
• 11:36
  What questions are we answering? Internal and external links
• 11:40
  still matter. And so actually what I like
• 11:43
  about the world of AI surge versus SEO is SEO was just
• 11:47
  looking at the link sheer number of inbound links and outbound
• 11:49
  links and who are those links. Now the LLMS are looking the
• 11:54
  looking at the context of those links.
• 11:56
  So is, is one of these internal links, is that context directly
• 12:02
  related to the piece of content that that is here?
• 12:06
  Meaning is it contextually mapped?
• 12:10
  So those things are now important.
• 12:12
  Let me give you a more concrete example of that.
• 12:14
  So in in the world of SEO, it was all about backlinks.
• 12:18
  Oh, we need all these links to point to your website.
• 12:20
  And so there was this whole underground world of people
• 12:23
  buying backlinks. Just buy a link.
• 12:24
  I don't care what the link is because the more links I have,
• 12:27
  the more SEO juice I have In AI search, the context of those
• 12:32
  links matter. Meaning, if you were going to
• 12:34
  get pressed about your company, what is said in that press
• 12:37
  article matters more than the link itself.
• 12:40
  Interesting. Which I ultimately is better the
• 12:43
  context of that press article. Is it positive?
• 12:45
  Is it negative? Does it align with your story?
• 12:47
  Is it consistent? That will matter more than the
• 12:50
  sheer just Oh, we got a link from Forbes.
• 12:53
  Yeah, Yeah, it makes more sense, yeah.
• 12:59
  So that's something to think about in content.
• 13:02
  I think that what's interesting there is so we in our tool, we
• 13:06
  measure SEO. So you can look at what are your
• 13:10
  SEO results, which is basically traffic, how much traffic are
• 13:14
  you driving? What is driving that traffic?
• 13:18
  Is that pulling then from Google search console?
• 13:20
  So you just see like direct results?
• 13:22
  OK, great. Mm hmm.
• 13:23
  Mm, hmm. It's funny.
• 13:26
  This is, this is not loading, but point, point made.
• 13:30
  You're basically looking at your, your classic SEO metrics.
• 13:34
  In the world of AI search, you're looking at visibility,
• 13:39
  which is fundamentally a different metric.
• 13:41
  So in the world of SEO, you're saying how many people actually
• 13:44
  clicked and went to my website in AI search?
• 13:48
  You're looking at how many times was I recommended?
• 13:51
  How many times was my brand mentioned and how was it
• 13:55
  mentioned? So in AI search, not only are
• 13:59
  you looking at, oh, how often am I?
• 14:00
  What is the probability that I am mentioned for the things that
• 14:05
  I care about, for the queries that my customers might be
• 14:08
  typing in, There's also citation.
• 14:11
  So how often is my website actually put in there?
• 14:15
  I would say the visibility is just as valuable as the website
• 14:19
  because the visibility is your brand being recommended.
• 14:22
  But but then there's also what is it saying about you?
• 14:26
  So also what you're looking at in the world of AI search is
• 14:29
  you're actually you're, you're essentially running simulations.
• 14:33
  So the way that our tool does this is we are taking a question
• 14:37
  or a query that your customer might care about and we are
• 14:40
  pinging the AIS and we are saying out of 1000 times that
• 14:45
  we'd ping it, what is the the answer?
• 14:48
  And how often are we measured in that answer versus our
• 14:51
  competitors? And then what's important is
• 14:54
  actually understanding what is being said about our company in
• 14:59
  these answers. So if I click in these, what is
• 15:02
  being said about the company and is this the right information?
• 15:08
  Quick side note for founders who are using AI to write content,
• 15:12
  you've probably noticed this. It's incredibly fast, but it
• 15:15
  doesn't really Dr. meaningful traffic.
• 15:17
  And honestly, that's because most AI generated content is
• 15:20
  just average. There's no real insight, no
• 15:23
  depth, no structure, missing things like internal linking,
• 15:26
  and Google's getting very good at filtering that out.
• 15:29
  So instead of trying to just prompt better, I actually came
• 15:32
  across something interesting called Neena.
• 15:34
  It's a system that combines human strategy and review with
• 15:38
  AI writing to create high quality SEO optimized blog
• 15:41
  content that's actually designed to rank and keep ranking.
• 15:45
  What I like about it is that it's done for me.
• 15:47
  Their team handles the topic strategy and the content review
• 15:51
  and data markups for Google and turns blog posts into actual
• 15:54
  long term traffic assets. So if you're a founder thinking
• 15:58
  seriously about organic growth, this is one of those things
• 16:01
  worth paying attention to. You can check it out at Try
• 16:04
  nina.co. That's TRYNIN a.cotrynina.co.
• 16:12
  Every week I sit down and ask myself one question.
• 16:15
  What do founders actually need to know about AI right now?
• 16:17
  Not the think pieces or the stuff that sounds impressive.
• 16:20
  The real useful, put it to work today stuff.
• 16:23
  Then I write it up, send it to you in your inbox, free.
• 16:26
  That newsletter is called AI for Founders and I built it because
• 16:29
  I was tired of waiting through hit pieces and people that are
• 16:31
  afraid of the future. Each issue I breakdown the tools
• 16:34
  worth your time, the strategies that are working, and the ways
• 16:37
  you can use AI to grow your company without burning out or
• 16:40
  getting left behind. Thousands of founders read it
• 16:42
  every week and I'd love for you to be one of them.
• 16:44
  Subscribe for free at AI for founders.co. 3 seconds to sign
• 16:48
  up and I promise it's worth it. So cool.
• 16:52
  So, so this is interesting. Just you know, Bing and Google
• 16:57
  have kind of a search console that provides you this
• 16:59
  information. Is there like an an equivalent
• 17:02
  for chat or Claude? Or is it kind of different?
• 17:06
  Because this sounds like you're querying questions and then
• 17:09
  testing against content as you're building it.
• 17:13
  Oh, are you saying is there a difference between the answers
• 17:15
  that the AI's are giving? Or is there kind of the
• 17:18
  equivalent of the Google Search Console for chat and?
• 17:22
  Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, I have.
• 17:25
  So this is there's a lot of tools like this.
• 17:27
  We have one that's AI visibility that we give away for free.
• 17:32
  So that's the screen that I just showed you, which is let me put
• 17:35
  in my website and my competitors and understand how I am
• 17:38
  appearing versus my competitors and where these AIS are pulling
• 17:43
  from. So where are they pulling that
• 17:44
  content from? What we most often will see with
• 17:48
  clients, maybe this one's not indicative of that, but somewhat
• 17:53
  so, is that they're pulling a lot from your website.
• 17:57
  Yeah. But yeah, so these are these are
• 18:00
  kind of the new, the new tool set.
• 18:02
  So the new tool set there was SEO and SEO, Google Search
• 18:08
  Console is kind of your main analytics platform now in the
• 18:12
  world of AI search, you're looking at your AI search
• 18:15
  visibility. And so there's lots of tools
• 18:17
  that are doing this scoring of understanding your probability
• 18:22
  of appearing in AI search results.
• 18:24
  And then exactly what I just showed you, which is how are you
• 18:27
  appearing? Because it's your job to tell
• 18:30
  that narrative. It's amazing.
• 18:32
  And you know, I've heard anecdotally and I've seen that
• 18:35
  podcast mentions are doing a lot to get those recommendations.
• 18:39
  I know for a while they're they're using a lot of Reddit
• 18:42
  data for training is are you still seeing that?
• 18:48
  Yeah, it's interesting. So the the I'll I'll walk you
• 18:50
  through how to use this tool. So say you want to look at your
• 18:53
  AI search visibility and you want to understand how you're
• 18:56
  showing up to your competitors. What we do is we tell you in in
• 19:01
  your competitor set, what where is this content being pulled
• 19:06
  from? So to your question is that
• 19:08
  being pulled from Reddit? Is it social media?
• 19:11
  And honestly, we don't see those as much as we see websites.
• 19:15
  Yeah. So the the two biggest drivers
• 19:18
  that we see consistently across clients, and I can, I can pop
• 19:24
  into someone else to show an example.
• 19:28
  The the two biggest things that we see consistently are your
• 19:35
  website and the press that you've gotten about your
• 19:39
  company. So we see that more than we see
• 19:41
  Reddit. We see that more than we see
• 19:44
  social media. We see that more than we see
• 19:47
  LinkedIn or YouTube or a lot of things that influencers are
• 19:50
  talking about. And with the needle we find our
• 19:53
  just not as big of factors as have you trained the algorithms
• 19:58
  on your business based on the content on your website and is
• 20:01
  there are you getting press other people talking about you
• 20:06
  in the context that matters, Meaning what is in that press
• 20:09
  article matters more than just the link?
• 20:13
  Now how about like I had Caitlin on the other day and he was
• 20:17
  talking about press releases are starting to push recommendations
• 20:20
  too that if you can kind of like push press releases out just the
• 20:24
  old school press wire that that like greatly helps.
• 20:28
  Have you seen the same thing? Yes, yeah, big time.
• 20:31
  So press releases that are even just the old PR Newswire as you
• 20:35
  see in both screens are showed Wikipedia, Wikipedia.
• 20:39
  So Wikipedia pages. And it's not just your own page.
• 20:42
  It doesn't mean you have to have a Wikipedia page.
• 20:44
  It's it's are you being mentioned on other Wikipedia
• 20:47
  pages? Is your industry have Wikipedia
• 20:50
  pages about that industry, for example.
• 20:52
  So in the case of something like Airbnb, is there a Wikipedia
• 20:56
  page about peer-to-peer rentals that mentions your company?
• 21:00
  That will really move the needle.
• 21:02
  Cool, amazing. OK, so that's kind of
• 21:05
  encouraging. It's websites and the content on
• 21:09
  the websites. What's encouraging about that is
• 21:11
  you have certain controls over that.
• 21:13
  You know, let's take for example, case study what I'm
• 21:16
  trying to do with the podcast. I have the number one AI
• 21:19
  founders podcast on planet Earth, but that's a very tight
• 21:23
  category. I don't know how many other I'm
• 21:26
  competing with maybe doesn't you know, but I want to expand my
• 21:30
  reach. And so a lot of the things I've
• 21:32
  been doing have been basically to to get, you know, better
• 21:36
  search results and better LLM recommendations.
• 21:40
  Maybe would it be would it be cool if we did like a tear down?
• 21:43
  You could go over one of my pages and see.
• 21:45
  Yeah, let's do it. If I'm using like contact
• 21:48
  productively. Yeah, let's do it.
• 21:51
  OK, let's do it with your last episode, which seems like a
• 21:54
  logical place to start. What I'll do is I'll put it a
• 21:57
  link in the chat and then you could pull it up and just and
• 22:02
  maybe do the tear down off your screen and just, we'll walk
• 22:04
  through it. Yeah.
• 22:06
  Let's do it. So I'm trying, as I'm learning,
• 22:08
  you know, some of this stuff, I'm trying to implement all of
• 22:10
  these different techniques to, to create something that's, you
• 22:15
  know, and it's kind of like a, a fine line to walk.
• 22:19
  You know, you like, you want it to be good for search, you want
• 22:21
  it to be good for LLMS, but you want it to be good for the
• 22:23
  audience who ultimately ends up there.
• 22:24
  And like, it's a good resource and all of these different
• 22:27
  things, so we can kind of go through it for your last
• 22:31
  episode. Yeah, I mean, the first, the
• 22:35
  first thing I'll mention is I think you used AI to create this
• 22:38
  thumbnail for your YouTube video.
• 22:41
  I did. I don't think it.
• 22:42
  I don't think it looks like me. What do you think?
• 22:44
  I don't think so either. This is 6 months ago.
• 22:48
  They've gotten better, but also I've gotten a little bit more
• 22:51
  stylistic with the way I'm doing props.
• 22:53
  So now my thumbnails and I'm, I'm sensitive about this because
• 22:57
  it's so hard to get right. But now we're doing thumbnails
• 23:00
  basically of the guest, if they were, if they were put onto a
• 23:05
  mural of street art. And then there's a little bit of
• 23:08
  exposure so you can see the, the surrounding area.
• 23:13
  So then the idea is you're not trying to go for a perfect
• 23:16
  portrait, rather you're going for an artistic rendition.
• 23:19
  I don't know. I like that I agree that six
• 23:22
  it's it's like 6 months ago was way different with the models.
• 23:28
  It's funny, when you first sent me this link I was like, do I
• 23:30
  mention? Was I in office and that looks
• 23:35
  like my evil twin or something? Well, when I first looked at it,
• 23:37
  I was like, is that what I look like?
• 23:39
  And then I'm like, wait, I don't look like that.
• 23:44
  OK, let's do. Let's do the content tear down.
• 23:48
  So right from the top, at the top, I've got my H1 kind of in
• 23:52
  the the hero section and it leads into like the YouTube,
• 23:56
  'cause I feel like people want to like punch the YouTube more
• 23:59
  than the other player, but I have the other player there.
• 24:01
  Too. Oh, I see.
• 24:03
  OK, yeah. So it's all a balance of your
• 24:06
  whole goal is to drive humans to this page and for this page to
• 24:09
  be useful to humans. So there's a lot that you're
• 24:11
  going to do on the page to make it valuable for some attack to
• 24:15
  read this piece of content. So let's let's let's ignore that
• 24:18
  and just focus on what do the LLMS, what do the bots need to
• 24:23
  make this content appear in the bot results.
• 24:27
  We must please the. Bots, and we must please the
• 24:30
  bots. The fact that the title is a
• 24:33
  question is actually often pretty positive, but the first
• 24:38
  thing I'll note is when I showed you the example of the piece of
• 24:41
  content it the structure looks similar, but there's a little
• 24:44
  there's a few differences. So you'll notice that the
• 24:47
  example I sent you the the paragraphs are a lot shorter.
• 24:52
  OK. So the information density of
• 24:55
  your writing is is important and this headline show notes is not
• 25:00
  going to tell AI much about what's in that paragraph.
• 25:05
  So you want these sub headlines to be very clear of exactly what
• 25:10
  this paragraph is about so that AI knows oh I read this
• 25:14
  headline, do I need to summarize this next piece or is this is
• 25:17
  this part of the value of this overall piece of content?
• 25:21
  Got it. So when we go through content
• 25:24
  for LOMSA lot of what we do is making sure that this title,
• 25:29
  these sub headlines are are valuable for exactly what this
• 25:34
  content is about and is basically teaching the LO Ms.
• 25:37
  exactly why you should care. OK.
• 25:41
  Yeah. So, so a hack that people often
• 25:44
  use that sometimes gets overused is a lot of these sub headlines
• 25:46
  will be questions. So the AI knows we're going to
• 25:49
  ask a question, then we're going to answer it.
• 25:52
  Cool. So basically you're teeing up if
• 25:54
  you have a question there. Then if somebody poses that
• 25:57
  exact question, it'll go find that paragraph that follows the
• 26:00
  question in the in the content and answer with that and then
• 26:02
  give you a link. Exactly.
• 26:05
  OK. Exactly.
• 26:07
  Another thing that LLMS really like is is in talking about
• 26:11
  information density is are there facts or figures or stats in
• 26:17
  this content? Meaning, did research go into
• 26:19
  this piece of content? Yeah.
• 26:21
  And so that's another one. You'll you'll notice that a lot
• 26:23
  of the the in the piece of content that I showed you, a lot
• 26:27
  of the external links are are citations to statistics or
• 26:33
  information that further supports.
• 26:36
  To support the big numbers, yeah.
• 26:39
  OK. So it's it's all about
• 26:40
  information density. OK, cool.
• 26:45
  All right. So and then I, you know, to that
• 26:48
  point, I think I did put in, I put in a couple of other things
• 26:51
  in the sections. So this is kind of a summary.
• 26:54
  Then I do frameworks or wait, what's scroll up a little bit?
• 26:57
  What is that one? Tools and resources?
• 27:02
  Tools and resources, so things that were mentioned.
• 27:04
  You'll want to link these. Yep.
• 27:06
  OK. And then under that framework.
• 27:10
  Especially since you're describing them.
• 27:12
  So if you're going to link and then describe them, that's
• 27:14
  pretty powerful. OK.
• 27:17
  Frameworks. So in like this is like this
• 27:21
  kind of like do an aggregate on another page of all these
• 27:24
  different frameworks of how founders are like presenting
• 27:27
  information broadly and kind of like bringing those ideas
• 27:30
  together. I don't know if that if that's
• 27:32
  helpful at all. Yeah, this is great.
• 27:34
  This is actually exactly how LLMS want you to structure
• 27:39
  content. So this example here, services
• 27:41
  and software, you say it and then you actually describe
• 27:43
  exactly what it is in a concise paragraph.
• 27:47
  OK. Those are the types of things
• 27:49
  that will be referenced in and cited in AI.
• 27:53
  Cool. OK.
• 27:55
  And then I'm doing like what? A FAQ?
• 27:57
  Yeah, here FAQ. Are great.
• 28:02
  Yeah, I wonder if this is redundant though.
• 28:04
  Like if our if the headers up above already had questions in
• 28:08
  them, then it kind of becomes a similar situation.
• 28:13
  Exactly. OK, Yeah.
• 28:15
  So if you're answering some of these questions in the actual
• 28:17
  piece of content that you don't need, this FAQ done at the
• 28:20
  bottom. Yeah, OK.
• 28:25
  Yeah, This is, this is, this is decent.
• 28:27
  There's definitely some optimization that could be done.
• 28:30
  B minus What do you think? Yeah, you know, I'm from Canada.
• 28:35
  We don't use the we we don't use the letters.
• 28:38
  Was it gold stars up there or something?
• 28:41
  It's it's percentage. You're you're either 1 or 100
• 28:44
  nice or you're you're either 0 or 100.
• 28:47
  So when people say grades, I'm like, I don't, I just know F is
• 28:52
  a fail. Yeah, FF is not F is what, 40%?
• 28:57
  So 40. Is it?
• 28:59
  Oh, wow. OK, that's.
• 29:00
  I think so. I think so.
• 29:02
  What is what? Is AB minus in percentage?
• 29:05
  B minus would be like A like A80-O do.
• 29:09
  You know, OK, that's pretty good.
• 29:11
  Is that pretty good? You give me a an 80 here.
• 29:14
  I would give you AC probably you, you know what you have all
• 29:20
  the elements. You would just have to
• 29:22
  restructure this to be more likely to show, to be more
• 29:25
  likely to be cited. So the restructuring would be
• 29:29
  shortening the paragraphs, adding some research, taking the
• 29:35
  full piece of content and figuring out, OK, Or is some of
• 29:39
  those FAQs in the top section? Like how does this flow so that
• 29:43
  it's one cohesive piece? Yeah, maybe if you could have
• 29:48
  something handy, an example of like what's 100 look like, I'd
• 29:50
  love to see that of like somebody who's really knocking
• 29:53
  it out of the park. You know a great way to do this
• 30:01
  is to actually go to. It's just ask maybe an LLMA
• 30:07
  question, right? And they're gonna.
• 30:09
  Yeah, exactly. And see what gets sighted.
• 30:12
  So what? What is a good example business?
• 30:19
  Oh well here I'll take the example I showed you.
• 30:20
  So a client of ours called Swimply, which was the example I
• 30:23
  was showing you and Hatter they are, they are basically Airbnb
• 30:27
  for pools. You want to rent a pool and so
• 30:31
  you can rent someone else's pool in a backyard to throw a
• 30:33
  backyard party. How do I rent a pool near me?
• 30:49
  Cool, They're showing up first. We're doing our job.
• 30:52
  Amazing. And they're being sighted.
• 30:56
  So let's see what's, let's see what's being sighted here.
• 30:59
  Oh, this is actually their home page, which is great.
• 31:02
  Cool. So often what we'll see is when
• 31:05
  we do these searches for specific examples, we'll often
• 31:09
  see a product or a service page. Those product or service pages
• 31:15
  are, it's very hard to compete to get cited on a product or
• 31:19
  service page because there's a lot of your competitors are
• 31:22
  going to have a a product page just talking about that product
• 31:25
  or a service page talking about that product.
• 31:27
  So if you see them actually being cited in answers, you know
• 31:30
  that that is a very well structured page.
• 31:34
  Love it. OK, maybe on your chat type in
• 31:37
  what is the best AI founders podcast A.
• 31:42
  New. One, let's see if I see a lot.
• 32:01
  Do you know these? Let's see, No priors.
• 32:05
  No, I don't know them. Late in space.
• 32:07
  No, not top three. I've got work to do.
• 32:11
  Lex Friedman. Oh, and like competing with Lex.
• 32:14
  Come on now. You know what I like about this,
• 32:17
  What I like about AI search, though, is it's it's the game is
• 32:20
  kind of the blue ocean right now, which is you're not just
• 32:24
  seeing the biggest ones show up first.
• 32:28
  Like my guess is that no priors in latent space are much smaller
• 32:32
  than the All In podcast or the Lex Friedman show.
• 32:35
  For sure. And they are showing up above
• 32:37
  because you asked something very specific.
• 32:40
  And it's contextual to like to you, it knows you and your
• 32:43
  tendencies. So, so again, like the
• 32:45
  recommendation becomes a little bit more tailored to what you're
• 32:48
  looking for. You know, I bet you if I
• 32:50
  searched it, I'd probably come up on number.
• 32:52
  Well, I mean, I talked to GPT about the podcast all the time,
• 32:55
  but maybe like an Incognito browser or something and just
• 32:58
  start a new account. It would probably recommend me
• 33:00
  because it knows me a little bit better maybe.
• 33:04
  Yes, very much so. I do find this if I'm not
• 33:07
  Incognito because I'm using at GBT for Hatter that if I ask it
• 33:12
  questions about AI search we will come up where we might not
• 33:16
  show up in someone else's search.
• 33:18
  Totally, Jenna, this has been amazing.
• 33:20
  Is there anything else we should know that's kind of like
• 33:23
  pressing and hot right now? What about when?
• 33:25
  So we're on our website and we're making updates based on
• 33:28
  these recommendations. We're building content based on
• 33:31
  these recommendations. Should you be like bringing them
• 33:34
  over to that Search Console and indexing them every single time
• 33:37
  they go live? Is that important?
• 33:39
  Is there a way to like push the content so that the LMS can see
• 33:42
  it sooner than later? Oh, great question.
• 33:47
  We do. We do go to Search Console and
• 33:50
  index things right away because you showing up in search is
• 33:53
  important because the LMS are doing real time searches.
• 33:56
  So that is important. But I would say the biggest take
• 33:59
  away for folks is knowing your differentiation and your
• 34:05
  messaging because a lot of what you're going to do in AI search
• 34:09
  is train the LLMS for why you should show up and you need to
• 34:14
  be different. Amazing.
• 34:17
  Cool. Now last question here, is there
• 34:21
  any difference of tactics or techniques if you're trying to
• 34:24
  get ranked on GPT or clod or perplexity or grok or meta is is
• 34:31
  there variables that are a little bit different with each
• 34:33
  of them or are kind of the foundational principles similar?
• 34:37
  The, the foundational principles are the same.
• 34:40
  It's interesting we, so we have a, we have a way in our tool to
• 34:43
  look at traffic from each of the AI tools.
• 34:48
  And what we find is that 90% of traffic is still coming from
• 34:53
  ChatGPT. Yeah, we we thought that would
• 34:55
  change over and that we'd see more traffic coming from Claude.
• 34:58
  But for most of our clients, it's majority ChatGPT.
• 35:02
  Yeah, they've, they've definitely knocked it out of the
• 35:05
  park, obviously as as a consumer app.
• 35:07
  I mean, there's the fastest growing app of all time, right?
• 35:10
  It was like 1,000,000 downloads in like 1 day or something
• 35:13
  insane. Yeah, I think they're just still
• 35:16
  just the most well known. Yeah, And you know, for the
• 35:19
  folks I talk to, it's like work is on clod and then GPT is for
• 35:23
  like everything else, you know, personal stuff.
• 35:25
  See, that's how I use it. Yeah, totally.
• 35:28
  Jenna, this has been awesome. What's on tap for Hatter this
• 35:30
  year? What are you working on?
• 35:32
  Oh, let me, let me show you. Yeah.
• 35:35
  We are taking what we are doing for clients at at like a more
• 35:40
  premium white glove approach and we are turning it into a tool.
• 35:47
  So this is for more SMB. We're essentially taking all of
• 35:52
  the tactics that we do manually to help businesses show up in AI
• 35:56
  search, and we are creating AI agents to help you.
• 36:00
  Do it amazing. Yeah, so.
• 36:02
  Quick, yeah, quick quick walk through of, of how that works.
• 36:06
  We, we take in your website and we find the gaps in content that
• 36:11
  mean that you're not showing up for what you care about.
• 36:13
  And then we create content to fill those gaps.
• 36:16
  We actually help create the the service and product pages that
• 36:21
  are showing up. So I mentioned that of how
• 36:22
  important those pages are automated SEO.
• 36:27
  So boom, hit a button. It deals with all of your
• 36:30
  technical SEO, which until now has been extremely manual.
• 36:35
  And then AI agents that are actually doing AB conversion
• 36:39
  testing. So we are running tests on web
• 36:43
  pages to figure out what pages are converting and then tracking
• 36:47
  all of that. So that's that's what's on deck.
• 36:49
  We're super excited to launch this in the next couple months.
• 36:53
  Sick. Will you give me a sneak peek
• 36:55
  link when it's ready to go? 100%.
• 36:58
  Yeah, I'll play around with it and let everybody know.
• 37:00
  Very cool. Jenna, this has been so much
• 37:01
  fun. Thank you so much.
• 37:03
  What's the best place for people to connect with you online?
• 37:07
  Either probably LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn.
• 37:10
  DM me anytime. I'm always There's actually a
• 37:13
  link on LinkedIn. You can book me for 15 minutes
• 37:15
  if you ever want to ask questions about your website or
• 37:17
  do a quick audit. Always happy to do that.
• 37:20
  Or you could send me an e-mail at Jenna at get Hatter dot AI.
• 37:24
  Tremendous. Jenna will do it again.
• 37:26
  Thank you so much. Thanks Ryan.
• 37:28
  Thanks for having me. This is fun.
• 37:31
  In three years, AI fluency will be a baseline expectation for
• 37:34
  every college grad, not a differentiator.
• 37:37
  It'll be a requirement. The students getting ahead are
• 37:39
  the ones building that skill right now in high school and
• 37:42
  college before it becomes table stakes. ainativestudent.com is
• 37:46
  the program doing that weekly one-on-one coaching, live cohort
• 37:51
  sessions, on demand courses and the fastest growing AI chat for
• 37:55
  students all tailored to your students specific career path.
• 37:59
  Pre Med they learn how AI is transforming diagnostics.
• 38:02
  Pre law they learn legal AI tools business they learn to
• 38:05
  think like an AI power operator. 1 flat membership less than a
• 38:09
  private tutor. Cancel anytime.
• 38:11
  And if you're a founder listening to the show, you
• 38:13
  already know the cost of falling and behind.
• 38:15
  Don't let your kid pay that price.
• 38:18
  Go to ainativestudent.com, apply in a couple minutes, and get
• 38:21
  your student into the cohort that changes their trajectory.
• 38:24
  AI native student.com and send them to the chat.
• 38:27
  It's totally free. If Instagram changed their
• 38:32
  algorithm tomorrow, how many of your followers on Instagram
• 38:34
  could you actually reach? Now ask yourself how many people
• 38:37
  are on your e-mail list. The gap right there is the gap
• 38:40
  between a personal brand you're borrowing and one that you
• 38:43
  actually own. The best founders in the world,
• 38:46
  The ones getting the deals, the stages and the inbound.
• 38:48
  They have newsletters. They show up in inboxes every
• 38:51
  week. They build real relationships at
• 38:53
  scale. Inbox Alchemy makes that happen
• 38:56
  for you. They write your weekly founder
• 38:58
  newsletter, build you a stunning newsletter website, and grow
• 39:01
  your list to 25,000 engaged subscribers in six months.
• 39:06
  All managed end to end. So it's generating pipeline
• 39:09
  while you focus on building your company.
• 39:11
  Algorithms are someone else's decision.
• 39:13
  Your e-mail list is is yours forever.
• 39:16
  Head to Inbox alchemy.co and start building the audience no
• 39:19
  one can take away from you. I want to tell you about someone
• 39:24
  I think you should hire. Her name is Casey Taylor, and
• 39:27
  Casey is an AI partnership agent, and Casey's entire job is
• 39:30
  securing brand sponsorships for your podcast, not handing you a
• 39:34
  spreadsheet, actually reaching out, making the pitch, and
• 39:37
  closing the deal for your show on your behalf.
• 39:40
  Chasing sponsorships for podcasters is a headache.
• 39:43
  They'd rather be recording episodes.
• 39:45
  Casey manages that completely. You brief Casey on your show,
• 39:48
  Casey goes to work, and you get back to doing the thing you're
• 39:51
  actually good at. Whether you've got 5000
• 39:54
  listeners or 50,000, she knows how to find the right brands for
• 39:57
  your audience and get them on board.
• 39:59
  You need Casey. Every podcaster does.
• 40:02
  Go to gethowdy.com. That's GETHOW di.com and meet
• 40:07
  Casey Taylor. Your new partnership agent is
• 40:09
  ready when you are.