Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / When Women Out-Earn Their Husbands

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When Women Out-Earn Their Husbands · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

0:05
Hi, everybody, and welcome to the dr.
0:08
Psych mom show again, thank you everybody for subscribing and
0:13
following and make sure to follow me on Facebook, dr.
0:17
Psych mom. And follow dr.
0:19
Psych mom.com. Subscribe for weekly.
0:23
I write about two posts a week. So less than I've been
0:27
podcasting. Actually, I've been podcasting
0:30
close to daily because it's easier.
0:35
It's easier just to talk honestly but hey.
0:38
So today I'm going to talk about a topic that people do not
0:43
really talk about that much because it's a sensitive topic
0:48
and it's not sex for wants its money.
0:51
So specifically I'm going to talk about what happens when
0:54
women make start making more money and sometimes more money
0:58
than their husbands. So, a lot of the time people
1:02
think that women only want money and they want to marry men for
1:09
money, and this is like, especially, you know, younger
1:14
men that haven't had a lot of experience with women.
1:16
If you see them on the Internet, they think that women are gold
1:20
diggers and, you know, obviously that's crazy, but it's not crazy
1:25
completely. You know, women are not gold
1:27
diggers but there is something very appealing.
1:29
About somebody who is successful.
1:32
Now today in today's day and age, women are going to college
1:36
at higher rates than men and more and more women, especially
1:39
that I see, I work with upper middle class and more upper
1:43
class people. And I have a lot of women who
1:48
are now the primary Breadwinner. And some of these women, most of
1:53
them did not start out thinking that they would be the primary
1:56
Breadwinner and also I Have women who are making e.
2:00
They may not be the primary Breadwinner, but they're making
2:03
more money than ever before. So how does this impact the idea
2:07
that women are attracted to successful men?
2:10
So if you meet a guy in let's say you meet your husband and
2:13
college and he wants to be a lawyer and you want to be a
2:17
lawyer. So let's say you meet him in law
2:19
school, that's where this example is going.
2:23
So you meet him in law school but, you know, you're in a very
2:25
different place biologically. You want a baby and Want to have
2:30
multiple kids and you've kind of always thought that you would
2:33
have more of a mommy track job. And you would be let's say in a
2:37
specialty of law with different kind of ours and he would be a
2:40
hard-charging corporate lawyer and that was fine with you,
2:44
right? So you have kids you're really
2:47
happy that your husband makes enough money.
2:50
That you can easily take time off, maybe even take time off
2:53
from law, all together and you're real happy.
2:56
At this time in your life where biologically you are meant to
2:59
ooh have little babies in your nest.
3:01
Now let's say your babies get older and they go off to
3:04
elementary school and you're you know you got a lot of hours.
3:08
You still have the intellectual capacity that Drew you to law
3:12
school in the first place and the desire for intellectual
3:15
challenge, let's say you go back to work and you don't really
3:19
want the mommy track anymore because you're at a real
3:22
different place in terms of wanting to build a family
3:26
people, especially women are very hormonal e driven.
3:29
And driven by biology and when you no longer feel like you're
3:33
going to have a baby in the future, you really change your
3:38
mind about a lot of things that previously you thought were
3:41
permanent fixtures of your personality such as the desire
3:45
to prioritize. Family all day long that does
3:48
not end up what really floats a lot of women's boats after they
3:54
are done breeding and they are in a different Biological and
4:00
psychological place. So then what happens when this
4:03
woman decides she wants to go back to law or screw La.
4:07
She wants to go into business or whatever else and now her
4:12
husband's corporate law career does not start to be an
4:16
attractive variable anymore to her now.
4:19
Why does it it? Sometimes it in fact starts to
4:22
be something that she hates. Why would this change happen and
4:27
how does it impact? The marriage.
4:30
So, what I see is that a lot of the time women who were happy
4:37
now, really actually not resentful.
4:39
Sometimes women were really resentful of the guys hours all
4:42
throughout, you know. Like the guy was making a lot of
4:45
money but he was gone all the time and they hated it.
4:49
But and so in that case, like the guy can understand.
4:52
Alright, she hated my job always, you know?
4:55
But I'm talking about a situation which I see in a lot
4:58
of couples where the woman actually, I did feel more
5:01
positive about the man's jobs was willing to deal with the
5:04
extra hours as frequently happens.
5:07
By the way, pragmatically, speaking when women have a lot
5:10
of family, help, you know if your mother is willing to help
5:13
you out with young kids then yeah, your husband can do a lot
5:16
of work travel and it's different.
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The women not really hate the husband's long hours are the
5:21
women that do not have any such help, you know, and they feel
5:25
more alone in that situation. So I identify with that that was
5:30
my Situation as a young mother and many of my clients who are
5:34
not close with their families of origin.
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They really want to have the man around and any sort of job that
5:41
he's in, that takes him away for extensive periods is really not
5:45
what they prefer and they would rather sacrifice the income for
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the man being around. And the man may have very
5:51
different ideas about that which can lead to marital conflict,
5:54
obviously, but let's say this other situation, which is where
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the man ends up feeling blindsided, which Focus of this
6:02
particular little hypothetical that I'm giving you.
6:06
So the woman was like the man's job.
6:08
She felt grateful for the man's job.
6:10
Hashtag blessed that she got to stay home with young kids,
6:13
right? Then, all of a sudden, she wants
6:16
to go back to work. She wants to really come into
6:19
her own intellectually and economically.
6:22
She would like to have more of, you know, the money to make more
6:26
of the money and to feel more equal in decision-making.
6:30
NG because of making more money. And yes of course, if a couple
6:35
is married, their income is, you know, whoever is income.
6:40
It doesn't matter. But a lot of people feel that if
6:43
they're not literally earning the money and it's not their
6:45
paycheck that they have less say.
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So a lot of women don't want less say anymore.
6:50
It's not the man saying that they have less say there are
6:53
those cases but I'm talking about the case, in which the man
6:56
says yeah sure. Our my money is our money and
6:59
the woman still And feel like that because she, she isn't the
7:03
name on the paycheck. So a lot of women still feel
7:05
like that and they want to make their own money, which is very
7:08
good. By the way, for you, self-esteem
7:10
wise to make your own money. If that's something that's
7:13
important to you. So, in this case, the woman
7:16
changes, her mind about the value of the man's job.
7:20
And she in fact wants him to be around more because now she
7:24
wants to be gone more. So she wants it to be this more
7:27
equal situation that she didn't really want it to be.
7:30
Overall from the beginning. She was fine, staying home with
7:33
a small kid. She actually liked being home
7:36
more or having a more flexible job.
7:38
But then when she's no longer in that nesting phase, she starts
7:42
to say, wait, if I want to take a work trip and your work, you
7:45
like, so you're at the stage of your career husband where you
7:48
have a lot of work trips, but I want to get to that stage.
7:51
So, what happens when I have a work trip and you have a work
7:54
trip or what happens when I have to stay late, but it's a day
7:56
that you have to stay late. So she wants a different kind of
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dynamic. This is frequently something
8:01
that brings people into couples counseling is when the woman's
8:05
changing idea about the emphasis of her career, you know, in her
8:11
life that changes. And so her ideas about their
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different roles change, sometimes men are flexible and
8:19
can accommodate. Sometimes, they feel like this
8:21
is a bait and switch much, like they do in a woman's sex drive
8:24
attenuates over time, a lot of my podcast and my practice in
8:29
general, as an Side is to say that women aren't bait and
8:34
switching men. You know, I mean this isn't
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something women don't say when they're 25, boy, I really want a
8:39
baby but then in 10 years I'm really going to want to go back
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to work. So no, they don't know that, you
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know, I mean it's like hormones are like having a beer goggles,
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you know, like for for a decade when you want a baby, you want a
8:54
baby, you don't think. And in 10 years, my baby's going
8:57
to be 10 years old and I'm going to think really differently
9:00
About my career. No, you don't think that.
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You just think I want a baby and it's so nice to stay home with
9:05
the baby. So nobody's trying to
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maliciously lie to anybody about what they're going to want.
9:11
Long-term just as a fourteen-year-old doesn't know
9:14
what they're going to want. When they're 20 for a 25 year,
9:17
old doesn't know what they're going to want when they're 35
9:19
and this is the same for many men who have midlife career
9:22
switches you know or midlife decide that what they want in a
9:26
woman is different or whatever else this isn't limited to just
9:30
one Women all the women are more biologically impacted by
9:34
child-rearing than men. Obviously, they carry the baby,
9:39
they nurse, and all of that. So anyhow.
9:41
So this is one situation that I see stress marriages is.
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When women make more money, they want to put their career now,
9:50
first or equal to the man's, or they say, it's my turn to be the
9:55
priority career and then the men's like, wait, hold on.
9:59
I can't just switch the On a dime, what happened?
10:02
Okay, so that's one situation. Now, another situation comes
10:06
where women start out, earn it. So, they were both straight up
10:10
in their career. They were both hard-charging the
10:13
whole time, and now she starts to be even more successful than
10:17
him, so this can really change the dynamic.
10:20
So, both of them are trying hard, nobody's taking the mommy
10:23
or daddy track. But now, she has become more
10:26
successful. Now frequently this in a
10:29
marriage Where the woman has any sort of issue with respecting
10:33
the man at all where she doesn't respect him for other reasons,
10:36
where she may think that he's a pushover, or he's passive, or
10:40
he's lazy or whatever else. Not the, she's any perfect
10:43
person. I'm just saying with the woman
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thinks in her mind, if then, she starts to out-earn him as well,
10:50
frequently, the respect drops even more because she feels that
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what he had going for him in a sense of consciously was that
10:58
she thought he was better at. Work or at making money when
11:02
that goes away in the absence of other things that make her
11:07
respect him a lot. Then frequently this can be a
11:11
real killer for the overall closeness and connection in the
11:18
marriage as a whole women do not often realize this until it
11:22
happens until they see that their paycheck is larger than
11:26
the man's. They frequently have no idea how
11:29
that's going to to impact them psychologically.
11:32
Now, it's so funny, because so many women say, and I actually
11:35
wrote a post about this called men, don't like high achieving,
11:39
women isn't true. So, I see a lot of men that are
11:42
like, oh yeah, it's great, she's out.
11:44
Earning me, she'd, this is great, like, we're a real power
11:47
couple, you know, like they're feeling.
11:49
This is awesome and they're proud of their wives and the
11:54
woman doesn't feel like that a lot sometimes she does.
11:58
So, what distinguishes, the women, who Can make more money
12:01
than their husbands and still be happy in the marriage.
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Well, first of all, like it's obviously a lot better if the
12:11
couple can discuss this as it's happening.
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Like many things, most things, all things a couple needs to
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discuss what is going on in order to get any sort of meaning
12:24
out of it and to shape a narrative that is happy and
12:28
satisfying for them both. So for example, there's plenty
12:31
of couples where they have discussed how she's going to
12:35
feel if he does more of the childcare and all of that.
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Because now she's focusing on her work because he used to
12:42
focus on his work when the kids were young and they have this
12:45
narrative that now, it's her turn and he is more willingly
12:50
taking a backseat. A lot of times, this is older
12:52
guys. And second marriages, by the
12:55
way, that are willing to take the backseat guy in, his 30s is
12:59
not so willing. You say, all right I'm going to
13:02
put my career second to yours now because from 25 to 35, you
13:06
did. But remember how you like to do
13:08
that? Well now why can't I try hard at
13:10
my career? This doesn't make any sense,
13:12
that's more like how the guy is thinking?
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Whereas a guy who's maybe closer to 50 may say yeah okay.
13:17
I could be more flexible. I can do more pickups.
13:20
I can do all this kind of thing, even if we didn't plan for it,
13:23
because I kind of have gotten to where I want to be in my career
13:27
old ready, so people, Oh, who are at a different life, stage.
13:32
Men who are a different life stage, can more accommodate.
13:34
Sometimes a woman deciding to really step up the pace in her
13:38
career. But overall, couples that have a
13:41
shared narrative about this and to discuss their feelings as
13:45
they are having them are in this on all situations more likely to
13:50
whether any changed successfully.
13:52
Another thing is that the woman has to really understand her own
13:57
feelings and not squelch them. So, If like, the only reason one
14:03
of the, if one of the main attractants for you of your
14:07
husband, one of his main attractive variables, was that
14:10
he made money, but you never admitted this to yourself.
14:13
Well, I mean, then you are going to be shit out of luck here.
14:17
When it comes time to weathering, your new feelings of
14:22
lack of respect because you haven't already realized kind of
14:26
what you valued, and your husband, and the first place you
14:28
were telling yourself all. He's Smart or he's funny or he's
14:32
a family man. Well, he still those things.
14:35
But if your desired app sex with him drops dramatically, when you
14:38
start to out-earn him, that you have to really give yourself a
14:42
wake-up call and say, what were my actual values.
14:45
What do I think about money? Sometimes therapy can help with
14:49
this. Because if you always saw your
14:50
father out, earning your mother and you have in your mind that a
14:54
real man makes a lot of money and makes more than his wife.
14:57
Well, those are really Those biases can be addressed and
15:02
explored fruitfully in therapy. For example, maybe your dad was
15:06
a super asshole, you know, and your mother hated that he had
15:09
all the financial power, but somehow you still grew up
15:12
thinking that this is what a man does in.
15:15
That situation would be useful to interrogate your own biases.
15:19
Such that you do not replicate a marriage that you didn't even
15:23
want, if you deeply think about it, such as your parents, Also,
15:28
it's really helpful. When of course the man picks up
15:31
more of the slack at home. If the woman is making more
15:34
money, you know, this just kind of makes more sense and a lot of
15:38
people do this instinctively, you know.
15:41
So if the woman is really bringing in a lot of money and
15:44
focusing on her career, a lot of men will will ask what they can
15:50
do, or will just fill in the gaps.
15:54
So, yeah, if your wife is having a lot of evening meetings, He's
15:57
feeding the kids except you. So you're feeding the kids in a
15:59
situation where the man passive-aggressively continues
16:03
to do the same amount as he was before despite liking the
16:07
increased money that she's bringing home, then that's not a
16:09
good situation. Of course, that these, these
16:13
Dynamics are never just one person.
16:15
So there's a lot of times where the woman does not say to the
16:19
man out, right? I'm not going to be doing
16:21
laundry anymore because I'm working 10 more hours a week.
16:25
So you need to Figure that out. So that would be something that
16:29
a woman could say within her rights.
16:32
Obviously, if she's bringing home money, that then he likes
16:35
for vacations. And for this, and for that and
16:37
if he's like, well, I am not doing the laundry either, then
16:40
they could figure out somebody to come over and do the damn
16:42
laundry, you know. But a lot of women are like, no.
16:45
I'll say that to him, but then he won't do it.
16:47
So I end up doing it. So, don't do it.
16:50
You know, don't do it and see what happens.
16:52
Then usually, he'll do it. And, or you could figure out a
16:55
solution if A solution of hiring somebody to do the laundry
16:59
doesn't work for you, then you need to have a different sort of
17:04
discussion with your partner and with yourself about why not, you
17:08
know, like why does it always have to be you?
17:11
This goes right back to my over function or podcast.
17:14
You can't be both successful at work at hard-charging at work
17:17
and an over function or at home and be happy in your marriage.
17:21
I've just never really seen that work because eventually the
17:24
resentment build up. So you You can super function
17:29
everywhere. That's called a superhero,
17:30
that's not a real person. So, to summarize, there's a lot
17:35
of variables to take into account, when a woman starts
17:38
out, earning her husband, and in this podcast, I'm mostly
17:42
addressing ways that the woman needs two variables.
17:45
That the woman needs to think about deeply.
17:48
So if you do feel less attraction to your husband
17:52
because you have started to out-earn him and you are no
17:55
longer happy with the way that the Chores at home, are split up
17:58
and you don't even really want to be the primary caretaker
18:01
anymore. Even though that used to be a
18:04
value to you, these are all really productive topics to
18:08
discuss in couples counseling or outside of couples counseling.
18:12
You could, for example, as I so frequently encourage you to do
18:16
share this podcast with your husband and say, you know, I
18:21
ever since I've started working more, I have felt a little bit
18:26
like things were not fair. Or like my values are changing
18:29
and our relationship doesn't really recognize it or that you
18:34
kind of make passive aggressive jobs about having to do more
18:36
housework or that, we haven't really reshape the
18:40
decision-making despite that I would like to because I'm making
18:43
more money. You used to.
18:44
For example, do all the investing.
18:46
I'd like to start to do some of that now and overall just a
18:50
deeper conversation about how your self-image is impacted by
18:55
your new emphasis on your We're now a lot of women I'm not
18:59
joking. When I mean, I'm not gonna ever
19:02
blow smoke up your ass, on these podcasts or in what I write.
19:05
A lot of women are no longer happy in marriages that they
19:09
were previously. Okay?
19:11
With because the man gave them Financial Security.
19:15
They're no longer as happy in those marriages.
19:18
When they no longer need the man for Financial Security because
19:22
they are making their own Financial Security.
19:24
And this usually means Is that the woman had a lot of variables
19:29
that she was unhappy with the marriage and she was sacrificing
19:33
a lot of stuff she wanted because the man gave her that
19:37
Financial Security that she hormonal and biologically felt
19:40
that she needed and was her number one Criterion because she
19:44
was in this baby making phase. Now she's no longer in it.
19:48
All of these other things come to the fore because she does not
19:52
anymore feel like she needs that Financial Security.
19:56
So So in those cases, it is useful for the couple to go to
20:00
couples counseling and explore. What if anything can be done.
20:04
So that the woman feels again, happy or feels happy for the
20:09
first time possibly in the marriage and or if there really
20:14
is any hope for a couple when she was kind of staying in it
20:19
for the security that she no longer needs, there are couples
20:23
where especially later in life, after the kids are older, where
20:27
Does lead to separation because the woman no longer needs the
20:31
man and this sort of dependent sort of way.
20:35
But this isn't everybody. This is just some people that
20:38
does lead to separation. Many people can work through it
20:42
and can be even stronger, and more Equitable, and more
20:45
egalitarian, and the decision-making.
20:48
And in the splitting of, you know, household tasks and
20:53
childcare and all of that, and that doesn't usually happen with
20:56
a spreadsheet. Sheet.
20:57
It usually happens with discussion and empathy and often
21:04
the man just realizing there's stuff to be done that she's no
21:07
longer around to do, you know, this wasn't ever a malicious
21:10
thing where men are like my wife is one who's made to do the
21:14
laundry because if you have a uterus you should do the
21:16
laundry. I see.
21:17
So few men like that. Now you know I mean we very much
21:22
try to have equal rights and the men that I speak to at least the
21:26
upper middle class. He didn't mind that I speak to,
21:30
you know they believe it. They do not believe that
21:32
somebody with a uterus is the one to do the laundry.
21:34
They frequently believe that somebody who stays home versus
21:37
doesn't. If they have five hours free
21:40
during the day, when the kids are in school, should be the one
21:42
to do the laundry. I think women believe that too.
21:45
Now that I talk to so many more women who have stay-at-home male
21:49
Partners, they also believe that the one who stays home should do
21:51
the laundry by the way. So this is is not like a gender
21:55
thing. But Anyhow this as any topic
21:59
should be discussed and empathy built on both sides.
22:03
If you guys find yourselves unable to do that on your own.
22:07
That's why there's couples counselors which provides a, you
22:10
know, a third party and objective safe space where you
22:14
can both are your side of what's going on and then hopefully come
22:21
to a different narrative and make different meaning out of
22:25
what's going on. So that both, Of you can lead a
22:28
more fulfilling life, both individually and as a couple,
22:32
that would be the point of why you go to couples counseling to
22:35
address Financial change of you know hierarchy or anything else.
22:43
Alright, so I hope that this left you with some things to
22:45
think about about the role of money in your marriage and
22:49
specifically the role of gender and earning power and please
22:56
like and Subscribe to this podcast and I will talk to you
23:01
guys soon. Bye.