Latest / Gay Men Going Deeper / Gaydar

Transcript

Gaydar · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:04
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gaiman going deeper, a podcast series by the Gaiman's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Michael Diorio is a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. Reno Johnson is a spiritual life, love and business coach. And I'm Matt Lancadell, a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. So we each have our own private practice, and in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff with you guys. And today we're talking about Gaydar, how to tell if someone is gay? And we're going to be exploring the two how can you tell if someone is gay? And is there anything you do to make your gayness more known? And what about hiding your gayness? As usual, we'll continue these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the gay men's brotherhood. Sharing circles well, you'll have a chance to share your own experiences. We also have our connection circles, which happen on the second Thursday of every month and are similar or smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss the topics on this podcast with other members in our community. So you can go to gay mensbrotherhood.com and check out our event section to RSVP for either of those. If you don't have Facebook, you can get on our email list and we will email you the Zoom link. So if you go to gaimansbrotherhood.com, comma, scroll down to the very bottom of the page, you'll see our get on our email list form. Fill that out and you will be on our email list. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported, so if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You can also subscribe to the early access option on Apple Podcast, listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community, and we do thank you in advance for this. If you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, check out our coaching collection. Learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting instant access to 45 plus premium personal development coaching videos created by us, as well as our healing, our healing your shame and building better relationships courses. You can head to gaimangoingdeeper.com for more information there. And if you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube and if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of people who need us. Oh, my God. I'm. I've got a cold right now. And that was like, my. Yeah, my lungs are feeling a little bit. A little bit toasty. Um, okay, let me freshen.
• 2:45
  Speaker B: I was just going to say kudos to you, Matt. Everyone who's listening who doesn't know Matt has a cold, and he showed up today ready to go. So thanks.
• 2:53
  Speaker A: Thank you. Okay, what is gaydar? So I sat with this topic, well, for the last two, three weeks, and it felt very basic to me. I was trying to find the meat in this. It is an informal term. It's not an actual term. It's kind of like an informal term that people use to describe what criteria perhaps we can use to determine whether somebody's gay or nothing. There's not a lot of research on this either, but I did find an article that I wanted to share with you guys, and the article describes Gaydar as the ability to determine whether someone is gay based on their intuition about the person. What we're talking about here are cases where people make inferences about others sexual interests in response to minimal information, such as the way someone dresses, walks, or talks. Okay, that's what this article introduced. So, um, Doctor Nicholas rule, a social psychologist at the University of Toronto, published a paper earlier this year in the archives of Sexual Behavior in which he reviewed the accumulated scientific literature on this topic. Okay, so we're going to tag the. The whole article in the show notes, so you'll be able to read it on your own. But I'm just going to read the two first paragraphs, you guys, because it's. Instead of me just summarizing it, I figured I would just read it because it's well written. So basically, most scientific studies of Gaydar suggest that there's something to this idea. These studies have focused on very different types of sexuality cues. For example, people seem to be able to detect sexual orientation while listening to short audio recordings, but also while watching silent videos. In addition, they can detect sexual orientation from still images of faces that appear on computer screen for just a fraction of a second. These wide ranging findings suggest that gaydar can potentially pick up on everything from one's looks to movements to speech patterns. These sexual orientation inferences occur very quickly and seem to reflect automatic responses. In fact, when people are asked to think carefully before making a sexuality judgment, gaydar actually becomes less accurate. In other words, the more people think about it, the worse their gaydar is. This. This suggests that we don't necessarily know what it is that we're basing these determinations on. Further evidence for this. Points for this point comes from studies in which people were asked why they made specific sexual orientation inferences. It turned out that they often lacked insight, especially when they only had very minimal information to go off of, such as a cropped image of a face that only showed a person's eyes, nose, and mouth. And it also goes on to say that some people have more accurate gaydar than others. So the instances where in this article goes on to say that the highest people score is about 64% of the time they're able to identify. So that's the highest. Right. So there's always going to be assumption in when we're making these determinations. I think it's important to note, too, that social conditioning plays into this in such a huge way. So there's. Yes, there's factors, but when we grow up and we are gay and we start to make peace with being gay, we might. Might want to live the gay life and become more gay. So we act more gay. If we're hiding our gayness, we might become more rigid and less, you know, flamboyant. And we might. So there's. There's an. There's an element here of acting, right? Like, we are all actors and actresses. We have a self concept, and we're portraying that self concept to people. So that plays into this as well. So the way we dress, there's so many factors that come into this. And I want to. For you guys and for the listener, I want to also point out that because when I was doing all this research, I was thinking about my gaydar, me having gator of other people, I wasn't really thinking about what about people's gaydar, about me? How does that influence me, knowing that there's people in this world that might be able to intuit my experience? So I want you to think about that mostly, this is going to be about, yes, we're talking about our own Gaydar, but we want to think about being seen as well as seeing other people. Right. And that these can be very different experiences. And being seen by somebody can feel very vulnerable. It can feel very exposed, exposing. So I wanted to point that out. And then unconscious bias. We did a podcast episode on unconscious bias that was, I believe, June of 2023. So if you go back and listen to that, there's going to be a lot of similar things in this episode. I think that is going to bleed into that. So that would be a really good follow up episode to watching this one, I'll suggest that. So I think it was June 29, 2023, that that one was released. Yeah. Okay. So, looking at, like, what we see in someone else. Oh, I kind of broke it down into two categories. So what we see and what we feel. Right. Like, for example, my gaydar, it shows up in the sense of how I see people, how they're walking, talking, acting, their mannerisms, these sorts of things. So that's going to be a piece. And then how I feel somebody. Right. Like, their soul energy, their resonance, my intuition, my gut feeling. Right. So it's broken down into these categories. So under the c category, I put, like, personality traits could be things that. That give off information that someone might be gay. Physical characteristics or mannerisms could play a role in the things that we see in somebody. And then how somebody responds to you. So are they checking you out? Right. That might give you data if they're gay or not. And then as far as things that we feel from people, again, it's like intuition or the resonance we feel with somebody. I know that when I'm with other gay men versus when I'm with straight men, I feel resonance. I feel like we have a similar vibrational energy. I can feel that. Right. And so energy and gut feeling, like the instinct that I feel around somebody. And that, for me, would be more my gaydar. I tend to feel into people being an empath. And then lastly, I wanted to say, too, I believe we have a creator. I'm still not sure what that is yet, but I believe we have a creator. And I believe our creator doesn't create us without creating like attracts like. Right? So we, as gay men, I believe, need some sort of survival instinct or adaptation that's going to give us information about people that we need to like with, that we need to match with or mate with or whatever you want to call it. So I truly do believe in Gaydar. I think it's an energetic form that we are able to come together and connect with each other as gay men. I want to also point out how vulnerable that can make people who maybe are listening to this podcast that are coming to terms with being gay, and maybe they're still closeted, and that could feel very vulnerable being around other gay people. That might see my secret, right? And I know when I was younger, I came out at 18, and being around other gay people was very intimidating and scary for me because I didn't want them to see the part of me that I had been spending 13 years desperately trying to hide. Right. There's lots of moving parts and lots of facets to this once you scratch the surface. Took me a little while to scratch that surface because I was like, I can't get around this. And so, yeah. Let's see what comes up in today's episode. I'm curious for you guys. We'll start with Michael. So how can you tell if someone's gay?
• 10:32
  Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you, Matt, for that informative intro and doing it while sicken. Okay, um, I want to. Going back, I'm glad you mentioned the unconscious bias episode. I want to kind of repeat something that we had talked about in that episode that I think is really important here, too. And that was that, um, our brains process our environment very quickly. And, um, I think one of the data, one of the pieces of data that we found was there are our brains taken 11 million pieces of information every 2nd. 11 million pieces of information around our environment. Of course, our conscious brain can't handle that. It can only take so much of it. So our brain takes shortcuts through the unconscious brain. And so that's why unconscious bias is such an important thing. So I think in this conversation about Gaydar, on the surface, you're right. We are talking about unconscious bias. Assumptions, stereotypes, all these things. And I think it's still really important conversation to have. So I will start off with a story of how this kind of happened to me very recently. This is the last weekend. So I was. I was in church last weekend. I don't normally go to church, but it was my nephew's first communion, and so I was at church. And the church where my brother lives is in the. In the burbs and not here in Toronto. So I'm not in my gay bubble. I'm very outside of the gay bubble, like, hour and a half outside of the city. So I'm standing there in the pew while the priest is saying a sermon. And as I did when I was a kid in church, my eyes are wandering around, like, not really paying attention. And I'm just kind of scanning around, just wandering. And it's a jam packed church. It was a first communion. So there's, like, two schools that were having their communion and all their families were there. It was really, really busy. And so I noticed myself sussing out the men in the room, not because I was, like, attracted to them, and not because I wanted to, like, bone them, but just because I was curious. And so this was not conscious or deliberate. I kind of noticed it once we started talking about this episode. I was like, oh, my God, I just did this. But it was automatic. It was just this automatic scanning. I wasn't really thinking. I can't even tell you what I was thinking exactly, because it was very cloudy. But looking at it in retrospect, I was trying to figure out, basically, is who here is like me? Again, wasn't conscious. I can only. I can only see that now. And some of the things I was looking at. What's he wearing? How does that suit fit? How does he move? What are his mannerisms? I was looking at his hair. Is it nicely coiffed or is it not? Right? So these are all some of the criteria that I use. Right. Um, how he carries himself, how he walks, if I can hear. Like, what are his. With the way he speaks, his voice? Uh, the big one, of course, is eye contact. Right. Uh, scathe sometimes just give each other that look. And again, it's not necessarily attraction, but it's like a. Oh, I see you. Like, I get you. Right. It's not like a. It's not like a, oh, I'm flirting with you look. It's a different kind of look. Now, is this absolute absolutely nothing? Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong, but most of the time, in that case, anyway, I'll never actually know. And I don't do this just at church. I actually don't go to church that often, but I do this at the gym. I do this at the grocery store. I definitely do this at the gym. I do this walking down the street. It's just kind of like this. Who here? It's like I said, who here is like me? Is kind of the. If I could put a thought to it, a conscious thought to it, that would be it. But it's not conscious at all. And I think this is just a normal human tendency we have to. Not just for gay people, but not just for sexual orientation, but to walk into a room full of strangers and to automatically suss out, who here is like me? Right. Regardless of. Regardless of what we're talking about. Not with any goal in mind. But I think it's just a safety thing. That's what I think it is. It's just. Okay, who here is like me? Who can I be drawn to? Who here can I. Where's my tribe? And I want to add something, actually, we're talking about sexual orientation. So the way that I'm approaching it is how we interact in rooms of hetero and homo people. But even within gay spaces, I still have a tendency to make assumptions based on limited data and just visual cues about whether someone's a top or bottom, whether someone is a scene queen, whether they're a slut, whether they're a new gay, whether they're one of those gays. There's just constant sorting and labeling that's happening kind of behind the scenes. I'm telling you guys, I'm not doing this consciously, but sometimes I am. But it happens so automatically. And again, it's the same kinds of things. Oh, the way he dances. Oh, he's dancing like a bottom, or he's dancing like a topper. That drink is that, you know, he's having a. What is it? A kind of beer. That must be a top thing. So, these things accurate or not? And they're not accurate. Obviously, there's lots of people who, like, we know that this is inaccurate, but it's just interesting to see how my brain does that. And I would encourage the people listening here to do the same thing. Like, I have my stories and I have my criteria, but some of it may be similar to mine, but I would encourage you to look at your own. And how do you make those inferences? Okay. Because we can't ever tell. You can't ever tell for sure if someone is gay or straight. You can't ever tell for sure if they're a top or bottom or what their situation is. But because there's limited information, your brain will automatically take shortcuts, and that's okay. Our brains have to take shortcuts. They do this all the time. And that's fine. In fact, it saves us in many occasions. We kind of need those shortcuts to happen. You just have to know that they're not always accurate. Okay. You got to become aware of those assumptions, become aware of those snap judgments. Know that you're making it, and realize, okay, this is an assumption I'm making. Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong, but you don't want to necessarily act from that judgment.
• 16:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, sometimes we can use those. Those things. We can show up in a certain way because we want people to see us a certain way. So I might go and grab a corona from the. From the bar because I want people to see me as a top or as masculine or whatever. And I think. So there's. There can be truth. There can also be inauthenticity. There can be so much loaded in this. And I think the way around it is just get curious, ask somebody who they really are and take an interest in them as opposed to slapping labels.
• 16:35
  Speaker B: Right?
• 16:38
  Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks. For sharing that. That's a good little commercial for our unconscious bias episodes. What about you, Reno? What's coming up for you around all this?
• 16:54
  Speaker C: So, obviously, before we started recording today, I was just like, y'all, I slid up in the DM's and I was like, I don't. I don't know. This is like one of the only episodes I've ever struggled to find my words around. And I think it's just because I wasn't. I wasn't connecting with, I guess, the topic and the questions and, you know, it's funny, as I'm sitting here and I'm listening, there's something I realized. So there's like some pieces to this. So there's the piece wherever. Like, I don't know that I've ever really, like, it's not to say that it hasn't happened, but I've never really seen it being a priority for me. Like seeking for gayness, I guess you could say. Like, I've always just kind of hung out with whoever I hung out with. And to be honest, call me delusional, but I was just like, I just assume you're gay until proven otherwise. Like, basically my assumption was like, I am. If I want to sleep with you, I might have a chance. And it doesn't matter what you're wearing or how you're walking. Like, if I'm into you, you're probably going to know it and then we'll see what happens. You might punch me in the throat or you might like, hop into bed with me, you know, or, you know, or both. Um, you know, not in that order. Um, but, but, but like, yeah, it was just, it was really interesting because I was, I was. I found myself sort of struggling with like the, the question and the topic and sort of how it's shown up in my life. I can certainly say that there are qualities and characteristics that I'm aware of that I would associate with a person being gay, but also not exclusively. You know, it's like, I could say. I could say like, gay people wear shirts like the one Michael's wearing right now, right? But it's like. But, but then gay people also, I'm gay and I'm wearing this military vest and a hoodie and a matching military hat and you're wearing a gray t shirt. Right. It's like, so. So how, what, like, what do gay people look like? Right? It's like, you know, gay people have like well coughed hair, right? Or you know, it's like, well, I don't know, mine's kind of a mess, and it's under a baseball cat, like, so, you know, it's. So. It's just. It's really interesting. I find myself kind of struggling with the. The topic a little bit, and I think it's. I could be wrong about this, but I think I. I sort of move through the world, and I take people at, like, face value, kind of. And how do I say this? Like, what came through is, like, you are as I see you. And also, like, again, I just think everyone's gay until proven otherwise, you know? Yeah. Like, if we're. If we're speaking in the context of gayness as, like, men being attracted to other men and this sort of being a filter to, like, who I might be able to sleep with, it's like, everyone's fair game until you tell me the fuck off, you know? So that. That's kind of how I look at this. And I might be missing something here, but, um. But that, like, that's what's alive for me on this topic. And there's more I want to say later as well, about. About it. Yeah.
• 20:31
  Speaker B: You know what's interesting is I'm the opposite of urino, I assume, unless I'm in somewhere that I know is, like, a gay safe space that I'm aware of, but I assume the opposite. Everyone is straight until. Until proven otherwise.
• 20:44
  Speaker A: So.
• 20:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, like, when I was in church, I was like, I am the only homo in this place, right?
• 20:51
  Speaker C: I'm like, everyone in there is gay. Y'all want to sleep with me or somebody, but, you know, I'm like, y'all are gay? Yeah.
• 21:01
  Speaker A: That's awesome. Yeah. I think I'm more aligned with you, michael. I had to think for a second there. But, yeah, I would say for me, my unconscious biases, I've done a lot of work on these, and I don't feel like I have a whole lot of unconscious biases anymore. I might have some biases, and I might have some assumptions and some stereotypes that I favor, but I'm usually aware when I'm doing them. I think that's the biggest thing. I've pulled enough of my stuff from my shadows into the light that I'm able to kind of work with it and see. And not saying that I'm, like, a being of light all the time. I'm saying that I actually have awareness of these parts of me that want to assume and judge and these sorts of things. Yeah. And also, I have a story as well before I go into, like, the sharing the little nitty gritty pieces. But so I was in an authentic relating training this past weekend in Los Angeles, and there was when it's different, like, going from Calgary, where there's a lot of gay people here, but it's not like out, like, people walking around being out, out gay, whereas Los Angeles is very different than that. And we were in West Hollywood for an afternoon, and it was very gay and these sorts of things. So it gave me a little bit of, like, stuff to play with around this. But in the training, there was me, there was 26 of us, and there was, I think, seven guys like you, Michael. Whenever I'm in a group like this, I'm always assessing, like, safety. That's just what I've done for my child, like, who's safe here? Who would be somebody that would be, like, an anti gay person? So that was my first step. And then I was like, who might possibly be gay here? Who could I, like, match up with and do some little authentic relating games with that we would have this as resonance with? So there was a guy that I thought for sure, 100% that he was gay, and all the other ones I pinned down as straight. And so we had this thing where we stand in this big group in the circle, and it was like, move towards somebody that you are curious about, that you're interested, you want to get to know more about this made me anxious, so I'm like, I'm gonna let somebody come to me. I'm not gonna go towards somebody. And guess who came over to me? This guy that I thought was gay. And I was like, this is so interesting. So this is affirming. So this was the story I was telling myself. This is affirming my story that he's gay. He came over, he found the resonance in me, and we're gonna have a conversation about what it's like to be gay and authentic relating. So he went first, and I think the prompt was like, what was it? The story I'm telling myself about you is. So he went and shared whatever. I can't even remember what he shared about me. And then I was like, oh, fuck. I'm like, am I going to go to this edge? Am I going to go to this place and talk about the story that I have that he's the only other gay guy in the group? And me, too, because what if I'm wrong? And whenever I go to these authentic relating trainings, I'm literally living on my edge the whole time, and I'm just in this place. So I was like, yeah, I'm going to go for it, and I'm just going to be like. So I'm like, the story I'm telling myself about you is that. But, like me, I think you're gay. And we share this as a resonance. And, like, he was, like, just like, whoa. I could feel, like, closure. Like, he closed off. So my intuition, I kind of have a feeling that maybe he was gay and he didn't want to be seen as this, and maybe he's coming to this in himself, and he was drawn to me because he felt that in me, like I could be a safe person, that he could. So anyway, so then he avoided me for the rest of the training, and he said that he. What did he say? He's like, I don't identify with that orientation, but he's like, I'm too shy to tell you more about this right now. So he's like, maybe we can pair up again and talk about this deeper. And then we never ended up connecting. So I shouldn't say he avoided me the rest of the training, but he didn't come to me, I guess so anyway. So there was something in there, and I believe in my intuition. I would say 99% of the time I'm right. There's 1% of the time where I'm wrong, and it happens. But I do believe in my intuition. Um, so when. When it comes to Gaydar, I would say, you know, a lot of the ones that I. That I picked here are from the sea. The sea category versus the feel, because the feel for me is hard to describe. It's just this. It's like a magnet. Like, it feels like. I don't know, there's something around that. It's hard to put into words. But I see, you know, when I'm looking to tell if somebody's gay, first of all, it's a huge spectrum. You know, if I were to use a marker as a stereotype, it would be that gay men tend to be more feminine and in with their femininity, whereas straight men aren't. So that's usually the first marker. But what I'm realizing is that there is a massive spectrum amongst heterosexual men. There's very masculine presenting heterosexual men, and there's some feminine presenting heterosexual men and then gay. It's the same thing. You have very masculine presenting gay men and some feminine presenting gay men as well. And so I want to just recognize that this is where that is. There's the faux pas in that because you can't base femininity and you can't make an assumption that somebody's femininity is an equation to their sexual orientation as a whole. As a stereotype? Yes. Is there truth to stereotype? Yes. So I wanted to just point that out. This is probably a bias of mine because of the arena that I play in, but sensitive men, I see a lot of sensitivity in the gay men. A lot of the gay men I work with are sensitive. I see sense or gay men as more conscientious than straight men. This is an assumption that I have because I find that a lot of gay men care a lot about people and suffering and these sorts of things. I just see this. I see a lot of compassion within gay men. So I equate that. Like, a sensitive man, I would question. I'd be like, is this person gay or queer or whatnot? And I also recognize that I work with sensitive men, and I work with a lot of heterosexual sensitive men. So again, I can't base that off of anything. Right. And then the way they dress, like, clearly, I think that's one of the biggest ones. Like, I think there's this term metrosexual, which is like, I'm straight, and I dress like a gay dude kind of energy. But I think the way gay guys tend to dress gives them away. Like, short shorts. Like, above the knee is like, yeah, he's gay. You know, there's the walk. You can tell the way the little, you know, like, gay walk. It's, like, just a thing. I can. I have it myself. Like, I can feel that. And I don't see a lot of straight men wearing, like, short shorts. It's just not a very common thing. So attire is a big one. Gay voice, another quite common thing that guys with lisps or the way that they talk can, you know, definitely. Which it makes me curious about, like, genetics of being gay. Like, I think people come into this life with that voice. I don't think they're trying to have that voice. And it's, like, makes me wonder, like, the genetic component of being gay. It's very fascinating to me. And then the last one is about attraction to me. So I have a three look rule to determine if somebody's gay or not. So if I go out and I see a cute guy and he sees me, the first look is like a size up. Like, you're sizing me up. I'm sizing you up. Like, straight men do it all the time. Women do it to each other. It's like, who is this person? Second look is like, yeah, they're attractive. Right. But just because somebody thinks you're attractive doesn't mean that they're gay. Third, look, I'm like, okay, I'm starting to think that maybe you're actually physically or sexually attracted to me, and there's a possibility that you might be bi or gay. Right. If they continuously check you out, it's likely a sign that something's up. So those are just some of the things that I use, and I guess, you know, I want to just. Even just speaking them. I see the holes in all of the things that I just shared. Right. Like, that's the whole point of, you know, why we wanted to do this episode is to show that, you know, so get more curious about each other instead of just making these assumptions. It's so beautiful. And this is why I love authentic relating, is, like, I learned so much about people. And in that training, I had a story about everybody. And we play this game, like, what's the story I'm telling about you? And, like, when I came in and we're all sitting in the circle, day one, I'm looking around and I'm like, oh, my God, I will not jive with this person because they're this. And I'm just, like, basically sizing everybody up and. And it's amazing. After the course of the weekend, it's like a lot of people weren't who I thought they were in the way that I thought they were going to be. So it's just interesting. Yeah.
• 29:38
  Speaker C: You know, a few things came up while you were speaking. One is, and I just posted about this the other day on my Instagram Stories, how I thought it was so funny that, like, you know, the things that, let's say, gay people or even, like, black people were, like, reprimanded for in terms of, like, style and expression have all been, like, over time, co opted by. By the, like, the very people who oppressed them initially, which I find so fascinating. It's like, the guys who would have been bullying me for wearing a crop top years ago, they're all wearing crop tops now, you know, or tight shirts or, like, all the stuff we've been wearing. They're wearing the necklaces we would have been wearing. They're wearing, like, all of it. They're all wearing it, right? And I get it. It's like, bless your heart. You had to catch up with us because we're ahead of the curve. We're ahead of the curve. You know?
• 30:35
  Speaker A: Um, are you talking about within the gay community? Are you talking about straight guys?
• 30:39
  Speaker C: Straight guys outside of. Yeah.
• 30:42
  Speaker A: Um, I don't think I've ever seen a straight dude wear a crop top.
• 30:45
  Speaker C: Oh, my goodness, honey. Oh, yeah, for sure. It's like all.
• 30:51
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:52
  Speaker C: Like a thing now, for sure. Yeah. Even things like crop tops. The earring? Yeah, exactly. All the stuff. It's.
• 30:59
  Speaker A: And you don't think those people identify as queer?
• 31:01
  Speaker C: No, they don't.
• 31:02
  Speaker A: Or, like, gender fluid or anything?
• 31:04
  Speaker C: No. Interesting. They don't. Yeah, that, and that's what I mean. Like, it's just, yeah, there's a lot of fluidity these days. And honestly, to be honest, I just think, yeah, they're catching up, you know? It's like, we knew. We knew it was all cool. Yeah.
• 31:18
  Speaker A: I want to ask you another question. How do you know that they're straight? Because we can use gaydar to determine gayness, but we can also, like, how do we. How can we assume that those people that are wearing crop tops are heterosexual?
• 31:29
  Speaker C: So two things. Two things. One, um, what you talked about feeling and intuiting is something I definitely leverage. Um, but the other piece is, uh, I don't. Like, I I don't. I generally will not. I'm not saying in the background, my mind isn't trying to do math to figure it out. I'm not saying that isn't happening. It's just like, I'm. It's so sort of secondary to the fact that, like, I'm just not. I'm just like, if I want you, I want you. I don't. I don't know until I ask you. I don't know if you're gay. And I generally won't, like, assume it. Let me rephrase that. I will assume that I have a chance with you, that I can. We will probably sleep together if I want to until you reject me and tell me you're not. Right? So that's kind of how it works for me. But, yeah, there's still this sense that I can kind of tell even when people are wearing certain things. Like, I can tell you're gay, and I can tell, like, you're probably gay, and I can tell you're probably not. And it's a feeling. It's like an intuition. Yeah. Yeah. And. And the last thing I'll say is, I think one of the reasons why. Well, there's two more. But one of the reasons I struggled with this episode so much initially, I think, is because, like, I have always struggled with being boxed in. Like, I swear I came out of my mom's vulva. Like, just. Just like, you cannot tame me like I am me. And constantly throughout my life, it's like, oh, you're this, you're that. And I'm like, well, yeah, but no. Yeah, but no. So I think that was it for me. I was just like, well, what does that even mean? Like who I'm me? What do you mean? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:22
  Speaker B: I have some things I want to add, too. We thought we were going to have anything to say. First of all, I love Reno. Adding the word probably, like, you're probably this and you're probably that. Even just adding that word helps because it leaves wiggle room because of course, there's always going to be exceptions and we don't actually know for sure. Right? Yeah. So a couple things. One, the concept of the cultural aspect of it, we have to look at this in context, right? I, so here in Toronto, which is, I would say, a very metrosexual city and probably other urban centers, like I'm thinking of, I've been to Spain four times. I've been to Italy four times. Mexico City was just there. Guys who wear the shirt that I'm wearing, like this lacy, transparent kind of thing and this chain, straight guys would totally wear this in these other places, not even think twice. And they would like, and, yeah, but here, or maybe in another, if I went to, you know, church wearing this, they'd be like, oh, that's the gay guy. Right. So we really have to look at the context of the culture, cultural aspect of it and what we're used to and where we live. And then the other thing I was going to say, specific to my gay desire or my gay gaydar is what gets in the way for me is desire. I will, like, want someone to be gay because I'm attracted to them. And so my brain will convince me. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. This for sure. This guy. Oh, yeah, this happens to me a lot at the gym. So, yeah, those are the two things I wanted to mention.
• 34:42
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny, I just wrote that down. I swear. We have, like, television, telepathy or whatever you call it. Yeah, desire can affect Gaydar. I wrote those exact words before you even said that. Yeah, it's true. And how many times have I been skewed by that? It's like, oh, he's so hot. I bet he is. Or these sorts of things. And we play up the story and then he goes and grabs his girlfriend's hand and I'm like, oh, and then.
• 35:07
  Speaker C: The opposite has happened. I'm telling you, if I had this filter if I was trying to see things through this lens, most of the guys that I hooked up with in high school and post high school, I wouldn't have hooked up with. Because all these guys, for all intents and purposes, if you looked at them, if you heard them, even if you were trying to intuit, you would not have thought that they were, like, down to have sex with another guy, you know, like, loads of them, you know?
• 35:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, I think that spectrum that I talk about, too, is it's like, you know, people that are fully, fully gay, like, sexuality is a spectrum. So where do we draw that line? Right? Like, if somebody, you know, sleeps with men or women, we'll say 99% of the time, and 1% of the time, does that make them gay or does that make them bi? Or, like, you know what I mean? Like, I just. It's. It's such a. I think that's where people have a hard time with all these labels, is. It's like, you know, why can't I just be a sexual being that. That moves towards whatever desires I feel in that moment? But then there's also people that find safety, and, like, me, I'm somebody that finds safety in it. Like, I'm 100% gay. Like, I have zero desire to be with women. So it's like, I find safety and being able to say, I'm gay. I like men. Men is what I move towards, you know? So. Yeah. All right, so question two. Mister Michael, is there anything you do to make your gayness more known?
• 36:36
  Speaker B: Hell, yeah.
• 36:37
  Speaker A: What about. What about hiding your gayness?
• 36:39
  Speaker C: It's like, who are you asking? Yeah, I love it.
• 36:46
  Speaker B: I mean, everything. And I love the way that the word gayness sounds like anus. I giggle every time. I'm so. I'm so mature. Okay. Is there anything I could do? Yeah, of course. Of course I do.
• 36:56
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 36:57
  Speaker B: I mean, everything that we just talked about, right? Like, I can, if I want to present myself the way I want to be perceived, if I want people to know that I'm gay, then I will do that. I'll wear a certain clothes, I'll walk a certain way. I'll flail a bit more with my arms, even the way I speak. So, you know, Matt, you had talked about gay voice. I can turn that on and off. And I spent so much time in the closet, as I'm sure many of us did, knowing, being very hyper vigilant within ourselves of how we are talking and what we are saying and just constantly scrutinizing ourselves. So I've learned how to do that, and I can do that again. So if I go to, let's say again, I'm traveling somewhere and this is not necessarily a LGBTQ safe space, I will definitely be able to turn that right off and turn that down and tone that down. Um, so I can hide it when I feel like I. When I feel like it's a safety thing. Um, and what I would do there, again, it's everything we just talked about. Right. So I would probably slow down a bit more, maybe deepen my voice a bit. Like this. Uh, this happened to me when I was in my. I talked about this in my corporate job, my nine to five job. It was a very much a boys club corporate environment, and I did for a long time, code switch, I guess, is the term, but, like, just try to hide the aspects of me that I maybe wouldn't normally or that I didn't really want to, again, mostly out of safety. Um, so what are some things I do? Yeah, I mean, definitely the clothes. Like, the clothes I choose. That's number one for me. And the way I speak, uh, again, I'm very animated. I, like, talk with my hands. Um, and I can have that gay voice. I can totally turn that on if I wanted to. And I do. And I'm with my friends. We're all. We're that crew, right? Um, yeah. So I think those are some of the. The main ways. And then I'll. I want to say what I do. Going back to, like, sussing people out. When I walk into. I'm going back to my church example, when I'm kind of sussing people out, I'm looking at, like, these are all. These are all general generalizations and stereotypes, but I'm just going to make it known. Okay, I'm owning up to it. Not to say that they're right, but this is just what I do. Okay. I will assume older men are dangerous and perhaps homophobic, especially anyone, maybe over the age of 60, I'm like, oh, okay, that's definitely not a safe person for me. So I'll kind of, like, hide my gain a little bit there. Again, feeling unsafe. If I see a young woman, I will assume the opposite. Oh, a friend, an ally.
• 39:30
  Speaker C: Yay.
• 39:30
  Speaker B: Is this true? Hells, no. This is not always true. Sometimes they can be not allies at all. But again, if someone says, oh, you know, I'm from some rural town up in the boonies, I'll be like, oh, okay, danger, danger, danger. If someone says, oh, I'm from Manhattan, like, oh, cool. You're good. But again, none of this is true. This is just stuff I'm making up in my head based on my notions of what I see in the world. So these assumptions are always happening, and they happen in the reverse way, too. And based on what I sense, then I either turn on my gayness or I should have write down.
• 40:06
  Speaker A: I want to share impact of your share, because I think there was something that struck me when you talked about turning off and on. What did you call it? You called it code.
• 40:14
  Speaker B: Code switching.
• 40:15
  Speaker A: Code switching. So I can even feel it in my body right now. That is such a trigger for me with gay men. And I just had a moment of feeling triggered. But I also had a moment of compassion because I know we have had to learn to do this to survive. And it's an adaptation. It's an adaptation for interacting with people that we might deem as not safe. So it could be more so, like probably heterosexual people. But when we do that, well, I'll speak for myself. When I do that, it bleeds into intimate relationships, too. So this code switching or this ease in being able to hide self, that really triggers me about our community, because I find it really hard to relate to people that hide. It inhibits the type of intimacy that I want. So I'm just recognizing there's a part of me that feels activated by this adaptation that we've had to have as gay men and how that has served us. But it's robbed me, I'm not going to speak for the people. It's robbed me of the experience of being able to really see each other as gay men in this deeper, more intimate way, you know? And because I also do see then this other side, it's like, well, when I'm with my gay friends, I'm going to be extra gay and I'm going to use my gay voice so much. And I find that's a bit inauthentic, too. So it's like the hiding is inauthentic, and then the overcompensating feels inauthentic to me as well. And I just, like, I yearn for this real kind of juicy, authentic place where it's just like, we can just fully be ourselves and not have to, like, act or play out these, these parts. But there's also a part of me that has so much compassion for us and, like, how resilient that is to have to actually be this way in a culture that is quite dangerous to be fully ourselves. So, yeah, I'm just noticing these two parts of me really alive right now. Yeah.
• 42:10
  Speaker B: Well, we are a minority. Gay people, queer people. We are a big minority. Like, if you look at the population of the world. So that minority stress comes with this vigilance that we just have to. And you're right, it is. It is protecting safety, whether it's conscious or not. I mean, for me, it definitely comes from years of being in the closet and, again, just being hyper aware of how I'm coming across and how I don't want to be perceived and how I do want to be perceived in some spaces. So, yeah, it's that vigilance is always there, I think.
• 42:38
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 42:41
  Speaker C: Wow. Well, present for me, there's. My experience is that, you know, I sort of came out of the closet when I left my mom's vulva again. Right. I'm talking about my mom's vulva a lot here. Hey, mom. And, like, I was just. I was me. I was me. It was like I was authentically expressed. And then, you know, and then at some point, I started to see, okay, like, me being me elicits this response from this person, this response from this person, this reaction from this person, this reaction in this space. And I'm assuming my. My mind and that, you know, this whole, like, whatever it. All of this is started doing mental gymnastics and math and kind of figuring out, like, okay, I can be me here, but I can't be me here. I can be this much of me here, but I can only be this much of me here. Right? And so there was this whole process, I guess, related to safety, security, love, belonging. And so I think what I probably started to see is, like, okay, in these places, I'm going to tone down the fullness of my authentic expression. And in these spaces, I can just let her rip. And then there was another layer of that where it sort of became this act of exploration and rebellion where I went, like, you know, first I went completely the one, you know, the opposite end of the spectrum in one way. It was like toning my gayness down, you know, I remember I went and, like, I was really trying to sort of fit into this, like, butch, straight, like, gangster kind of box that the people around me wanted me to put. Wanted to sort of put me in. And I tried it on, and, like, my being just rejected, it. It lasted about a week, maybe, if that. Like, just barely. I was like, this is not me. Let me get this off. And then I went to the other end of the spectrum when I came out, which was like, you know, bought the COVID girl, you know, bought the, like to exist sexy underwear and tank top and was, like, doing all the things. I was on the float at the parade and these little yellow speedos in the matching tank top, like, dancing it up and, like, it was amazing. It was fantastic. And I had a good time. And then somewhere in all of that, I found my way back to center, like, a place that fit for me. And I feel like that's the place I find myself in now, which is where, generally speaking, I'm expressing what occurs to me as it occurs to me, as opposed to kind of like. And I'm not saying I get this right completely, of course. Like, it's a. It's a journey. It's a process. But. But, you know, like, I will wear what I wear. I will say what I say, I will be what it occurs to me to be, and then just, you know, navigate whatever that brings up in my environment accordingly. So that that's kind of what it looks like for me. And what I can say is, you know, the question was around making your gayness more known or hiding your gayness. And what I can definitely say is, yeah, like, initially as a means of creating safety, security, belonging. Yeah. Like, I would tone it up in gay spaces and tone it down in less gay spaces. Right. And this was probably very necessary in a lot of ways and still might be in certain parts of the world as well and in certain spaces and environments to really, like, know how to code switch. You know, I think that's where it comes from. It's like, you know, you might not get hired if you're too black or too gay or whatever, right? You might. They. You might not be welcomed. You might not be befriended. You might literally be caused physical harm. Your life might be a risk, you know, if you don't know how to code switch. So I really empathize for, as you said, michael, you know, the minorities and, like, how we have been forced to move into this world or move in this world, you know, until, I suppose, until we started really rebelling, essentially, is what we had to do. We had to rebel. It's like we're here, we're not going anywhere, and this is it. This is what you get. So I don't even know if I answered the question. I sort of went on my own tangent in a way. But that's a. That's really what's present for me around this.
• 47:49
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks, Reno. Thank you. Yeah, this question was hard for me, too. I didn't really write anything down. I just figured I would just authentically relate around it. And, yeah, I think, what's the question? Is there anything you do to make your gayness more known? There's a part of me that's like, what is my gayness? Like, what does that even mean? Do you know what I mean? Being gay. Being homosexual means I have sex with other men. So it's like, is there anything I do to make my gayness more known? Well, yeah, I'll be like, hey, I'm gay. Do you want to have sex? Or putting that out there? So there's the actual thing of what it means to be gay, and then everything beyond that is just a thing that's been tacked on to what it means to be gay. So the parts of me that I would even make, that correlation would be playfulness. Being playful and skipping around and again, being feminine. This whole thing around femininity plays into this so much for me. Um, because. But. But it's not. When actually, when I think about it, those qualities, like, they're human qualities. When people are joyful, they're enthusiastic, and they want to skip around. If somebody just wins the lottery, if you see the most masculine dude win the lottery, like, I bet you're going to see some things that people be like, oh, are you gay? Right. We. It's funny how society creates this bridge between these qualities. Um, so I don't know. It's hard for me to answer this because I don't grab on to those things. You see, the traditional things people do in the gay community, I don't grab onto those. Those aren't the things that I've grabbed onto, that I've identified as a gay man. So if I go on a gay hike, does that make it gay with other gay men? Is that a gay thing that I'm gonna. So I just find that these qualities are just. It's just so interesting how we have this. So I want to rein. Continue to reclaim that. That my gayness is just about who I sleep with. It doesn't have to be about any of this other shit. That's. That people have slapped onto it, right? Which the typical ones are, like the gay voice, the flipping of the wrist, like all these stereotypical things that we see around being gay or the gay walk. But then I also think sometimes people in our community, they grab those and they run with them because they're like, maybe it's like a lack of sense of self. So they grab onto what the community is saying. This is what it means to be gay. And then it perpetuates that stereotype, right. If that's authentic to them, I think that's wonderful. Right? But if it's, like, doing it just to perpetuate the stereotype, I would be, like, part of me, like, kind of questions that, you know what I mean? And then what about hiding my gayness? I think, again, probably I would say I would have to answer it through the parts of femininity I'm still reconciling the parts of me that are. That feel uncomfortable, bringing forth those more, like, expressive parts of myself. Like, the really flowy, like, dancing, singing, like, all these things that I've been conditioned to believe make are birthed out of the feminine. I'm still making peace with some of those things. So I would say, geez, what would I hide around that? Yeah, I can't really think of anything that I think about it. Like, I think contextually, like, I feel like I'm trying to think of this authentic relating weekend. Was there a part of me that felt like I had to hide? And I don't think so. Like, I feel like I was just pretty, pretty myself. Yeah. I don't know. I'll put some more thought into this, but I really don't think there's anything about my gayness that I would be hiding. I used to when I was younger, and I think I've told this story before, is I used to control my hips. I was walking in front of a group of girlfriends at the time. I was probably 14 years old. And they're, like, one of them said out loud, look at the way Matt's hips walk or waddle or, wait, his hips sway when he walks or something like that. And I was like, oh, fuck. So from that moment, I was like, okay, walk rigid. Don't let my hips swoosh. And then, funny enough, I'm working with a practitioner right now that does structural integration, rolfing, which, by the way, is amazing for anybody out there looking for some bodywork. Um, and he's. He's, like, encouraging me to, like, sway my hips. He's like, go for a walk every night and walk with a hip sway. He's like, who cares what people think? He's like, your hips need to learn how to move fluidly. And, uh, it'll help with, like, lower back pain, getting the spine moving again, and things like that. So that was a piece. And then I think when I was going through puberty, making my voice deeper, that sort of thing, like, I really did not want to sound gay. And I remember when I was going through puberty, and I would hear myself on little recordings or whatever. I thought I sounded gay, so I would try to not sound gay and things like that, but I feel like I've reconciled all that stuff. I don't really. I love being a gay man. I actually hope that I reincarnate as a gay man in my next life. That would be fun again. You know what I mean? I think there's a lot of beauty about being a gay man. Hopefully, I don't have to go through all the struggle that I went through in this life. Hopefully, my next soul is like, okay, well, let's start from where we end, you know? And I get to just live the liberated gayness because I love being a gay man. I really do. Yeah, yeah.
• 53:16
  Speaker C: Snaps with that. Yeah. There's. I wrote something down while you were speaking, and thank you for sharing the piece on rigidity as well, because, like, if that ain't a metaphor for so much of what's going on here, I don't know what is. It's like there's this, you know, these people say this thing. You experience this sort of trauma, if you will, and then it impacts your hips and then your, like, whole body and how you express yourself. And to be honest, that's a microcosm of a macrocosm. I feel like that's what's going on in the world at large. Right. And it's why we're, like, sick and, you know, just. Oh, anyway, the other piece was, I'd written down, like, gayness, blackness, wokeness, queerness, etcetera. Like, they're all celebrations of authenticity, as I see it, and aspects of the whole that the majority has neglected or rejected both in themselves and in the world, right? And so that's kind of how I look at this, is just like. Like, you know, in. In honoring and highlighting these aspects. Gayness, blackness, wokeness, queerness, et cetera. It's like we are creating space for the whole, you know, and of course, there's going to be pushback from people who have rejected that in themselves. Right? So. And then also within those spaces, let's. Let's also acknowledge the fact that, you know, there are people who are like, oh, you're not. Like, you're not gay enough, Reno, right. Or you're not black enough or you're not woke enough or you're nothing queer enough, right. Or you're too queer, you're too black. Or you're too gay, right? So it's like, in some scenarios, you just. You can't. You can't win. Right? But what I would say is nobody gets to decide that for you. I get to decide that for myself. We get to decide that for ourselves. You don't get to tell me whether I'm gay enough or too gay or black enough or too black or whatever. Like, I'll decide that. Thank you. You know?
• 55:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good for you. I love that reclamation because I've seen people even leave comments on some of our episodes about and runs around race and, like, this guy's not even fully black or what does he know? Or these sorts of things. I'm like, what?
• 55:25
  Speaker C: Okay, well, we can talk about it. You know, send me an email, hit me up. Let's talk. We'll chat.
• 55:32
  Speaker A: It's just people projecting their own crap.
• 55:34
  Speaker C: I know.
• 55:34
  Speaker A: That's what it all.
• 55:35
  Speaker C: And I'm here for it. It's like, come with it. Let's talk.
• 55:38
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 55:39
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:42
  Speaker A: All right. Anything from you, Michael, or you feel complete?
• 55:45
  Speaker B: I feel good. I'm. I'm happy we had this conversation. We didn't quite know where it was going to go. And as always, it went in wonderful, wonderful places.
• 55:54
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I agree. Cool. All right, well, if you're not already, come join us in the gay men's brotherhood on Facebook. We'd love to have you there. We're almost at 9000 people. That's a lot. Great. Yeah. And then, yeah, please subscribe. Leave us a review on Apple or Spotify, whatever you're listening to us on. It does help us give us a five star rating. If you enjoyed what you heard comments on YouTube again, we always try and respond to them. And what I'm finding actually is they're really useful for other people to come in. It's like a community. The community goes and interacts and stuff. So your comments aren't just for us, they're for other people as well. Mostly, I would say, for other people. People read them and want to interact with them. So drop those comments on YouTube. They're important. Come join us for our connection circles the second Thursday of every month. And you can find all this stuff on gay men'sbrotherhood dot website. So come see us. Come visit us over there. All right, much love, everybody.
• 56:57
  Speaker C: Stay gay. Bye.