Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Harm Reduction with YouTube Influencer & Author Dr. Todd Grande
Transcript
- Megan Hunter: Welcome to It's All Your Fault on True Story FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most damaging humans, people with high conflict personalities. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy: Hi everybody. Megan Hunter: We're the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. Today's episode is exciting for us as we have our very first guest, Dr. Todd Grande, author of a brand new psychological drama/crime thriller called Harm Reduction. Megan Hunter: But first we have a few quick reminders. Here's the deal. We want to hear from you. Have you dealt with a high conflict situation? Been a target of blame by someone? Or maybe you simply dread seeing that person again, but you probably have to tonight at home or tomorrow at work? So send us your questions and we just might discuss them on the show. Megan Hunter: You can submit them by clicking the Submit a Question button at our website, HighConflictInstitute.com/podcast. Emailing us at podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or dropping us a note on any of our socials. You can find all the show notes and links at highconflictinstitute.com/podcast as well. Make sure you subscribe, rate and review, and please tell all your friends about us. Telling just one person that you like the show and where they can find it is the best way you can help us out and help more people learn how to address high conflict people. We appreciate you so very much. And now on with the show. Megan Hunter: In this episode, we take a slight departure from our regular discussions on high conflict people. And instead we have the unique privilege of introducing you to our first guest on our podcast, Dr. Todd Grande, whose book Harm Reduction was recently published. Megan Hunter: Now, if you're thinking that a book by this title was written for mental health clinicians, that would be incorrect. Although they're welcome to read it and it would probably be very helpful for them, but it's actually a work of fiction. It's a psychological thriller involving a therapist, a serial killer, and a detective. It takes you deep inside the psychology of the characters. Megan Hunter: My publishing company, Unhooked Books, had the honor of publishing Dr. Grande's book, along with his nonfiction Notorious series, which will be talking about at the end of the episode. So if you've watched Todd's videos on his YouTube channel and he has this amazing YouTube channel called Dr. Todd Grande, which by the way, has 945,000 subscribers as of today. And here's a little hint for you. If you go subscribe today, you'll help him reach a million subscribers by tomorrow, December 31st. So if you watch him on that, you know that he discusses the details of various news events, court cases, celebrities, serial killers, personality theory, mental health, and a lot more. His channel is very popular as evidenced by its very swift growth. Megan Hunter: Dr. Grande has a PhD in counselor education and supervision. He's a licensed professional counselor of mental health and a licensed chemical dependency counselor. So with that, we want to say welcome Dr. Grande, and thank you for being on our show and congratulations on the release of your book. Dr. Todd Grande: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Megan Hunter: As you know, it was a huge effort to get it from your brain into the reader's hands. And we're really grateful to all the people that helped along the way. And I'm sure you spent many a late night writing this fascinating book. So let's get to talking about it. So the first question is basically what is the book about? Dr. Todd Grande: So yeah, Harm Reduction's mostly about three characters, a mental health counselor, a detective, and someone who turns out to be a serial killer. And it features a few different timeframes, but primary in one where we see a counseling relationship develop` between the counselor and the serial killer, but there's some backstory that supplies perspective for that. And then some other philosophical and developmental components that occur with the counselor as she's going through this experience of treating the serial killer. Megan Hunter: The main characters are Jenny Ocean, Rio Winston, and Sam Longford. And you really nailed the characters individually. And then the weaving together of their interactions, which are, of course, driven by their personalities and motivations. So why did you choose these particular characters? Dr. Todd Grande: Each one even comes from a different place. I've always had an interest in true crime, and I have a number of videos I've done specifically on serial killers. So that was an area I was familiar with. They're a fascinating group. There's not really that many of them, but there are characteristics... We see common characteristics across many of them, even though they don't talk to each other and they're unrelated. So there's something ideological there that can be studied. Dr. Todd Grande: And maybe we can figure out what leads to their behavior. Obviously I'm familiar with the counseling field and I've seen many situations where I have supervised counselors that have been tough circumstances, especially around dealing with clients who engage in criminality. Can they alert the police? Can they alert a victim, duty to warn? What are their obligations as far as confidentiality? Dr. Todd Grande: And with the true crime, of course, with the police, obviously they're a main player in most, every true crime case. Sometimes they do a good job. Sometimes they don't. And I wanted to unpack the mental health and personality characteristics behind that role as well. And then how it interacts with Jenny, the protagonist. Megan Hunter: I love what you just said a minute ago about that serial killers don't know each other. And it just made me laugh thinking, yeah, they don't have a Facebook group. Dr. Todd Grande: I bet it would be very popular if they did, though. Megan Hunter: I'm sure it would. Dr. Todd Grande: Yes. Megan Hunter: It would have a lot of followers, I'm sure. So we talk on this podcast a lot about personality disorders and Bill Eddy is an expert on personality, as are you, Todd. With one of your main characters, Rio, being a narcissistic serial killers, of course, that fits nicely into our focus. And it's just really interesting for me to have both of you here as you are personality experts. Megan Hunter: And this isn't just my opinion. It's shared by many. So I've been waiting to get you two together for a long time to hear you discuss personalities. So let's talk about serial killers, the narcissistic kind, is there another kind? Dr. Todd Grande: Well, I think, I mean to some extent, they're all somewhat narcissistic and primarily psychopathic or sociopathic or factor one psychopathic and factor two psychopathic. With Rio, in particular, I threw in something from Cluster C family as well, a little bit of an obsessive compulsive personality because we've seen many serial killers over the years that seem to have that connection to very rigid thinking, very rule-based legalistic thinking. And that's a little more expanded with Rio to accentuate those features. But I think that in his case only adds to the dangerousness and only propels the narcissistic desire and in a psychopathic emptiness the void forward. And his motivation becomes very easy to access. Bill Eddy: You know, I've always thought of killers or serial killers as psychopaths within the sociopathic or antisocial personality disorder. But it seems to me that they also have a lot of narcissism. And it makes me think about the crossover that's often mentioned as the malignant narcissist, who's a narcissist with sociopathic behavior, paranoia and sadism. And I wonder where that falls into what you've observed. Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah. It's interesting. The relationship between narcissism and psychopathy is interesting because these constructs are very difficult to measure. Even though there's thousands of studies that have attempted, there's not always great agreement about how to separate out the Cluster B family of disorders or personality traits, like not only the antisocial to narcissistic, but the borderline and the histrionic. Dr. Todd Grande: I think one could look at it and say, is a serial killer born of, or do they come about because of, they've moved so far into the depths of psychopathy, but the little bit of narcissism that everybody has is then permitted to run free. So is it like a gate that's dropping down and they're just, it wouldn't matter how much narcissism they have, whatever it is it's unrestricted or it's disinhibited, or do they happen to be psychopathic and have elevated narcissism? Dr. Todd Grande: I tend to think it's the latter, right? And probably a number of other Cluster B features, too, right? Like they don't want to be abandoned. Many serial killers have been rejected by women. And they take that very personally like a vulnerable narcissistic, an insecurity piece. And they like being the center of attention and they tend to be shallow. So they overlap into histrionic sphere as well. So yeah, it's a complex mix of Cluster B and probably even some Cluster A like paranoia we see sometimes in the Cluster C where we see the dependency and the obsessive compulsive. So probably most serial killers draw from just about every set of personality features. Bill Eddy: It's interesting. We're talking about a cloud Clusters A, B, and C and some of our listeners may not be familiar with those yet. We've focused with talking about high conflict personalities on Cluster B, but all three of these are diagnostic titles that have separate diagnostic criteria in the manual for mental health professionals. And personality disorders are still really a brand new thing to most people. I think we're where we were 50 years ago with addiction, alcoholism, and other substance addiction or substance use disorders. Bill Eddy: And so it's an unfamiliar thing. So I just want to mention, at least my interpretation is Cluster A is really people who kind of steer clear of people. So schizotypal, schizoid, and paranoid, that that keeps them to some extent away from people. Bill Eddy: Cluster C seems to be people that mostly avoid conflict like obsessive compulsive, avoidant, and dependent. But Cluster B, the one you're really talking about and the one we talk a lot about in this series, is the ones who seem attracted to conflict. And they like high conflict and they like dominating people. Bill Eddy: And a recent study I read said, Cluster B basically is associated with domineeringness, vindictiveness and intrusiveness. And that I would think would fit the characters that you study. And Megan and I talk about them in relationships and in the workplace and as neighbors, but it's like Cluster B on steroids is what you're looking at. Would you say that's a realistic characterization? Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah, I think Cluster B is certainly the most... It's the dominating family of personality traits in serial killers. I think there's some other ideological components that allow the person to have access the Cluster B a little bit more. I mean, if, for example, somebody with borderline personality features is typically fine if they're not in a romantic relationship. So not all personality, characteristics are active at all times. Somebody with obsessive compulsive personality disorder, if they're totally getting their way, they're usually fine. It's when people start doing something they don't approve of that falls outside the rules. And if you look at schizoid or schizotypal, generally, if they're left alone, they tend to be very productive in work environments and they're fine. Dr. Todd Grande: I mean, so in a sense, personality is kind of unusual diagnostically because it's largely activated through relationships. Whereas other mental disorders in the DSM, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, their symptoms can manifest alone. You know, somebody has traumatic symptoms, hyper vigilance, can't sleep. They don't need someone else to express symptoms. Substance use doesn't require other people. Arguably some other offenses would need a victim right of the person to qualify. But generally those disorders can exist when somebody's isolated. Dr. Todd Grande: The personality features get activated through relationships. So I think with serial killers, they bounce through a series of relationships like a pinball, but they're always being sprung in a direction that leads them into a more, antisocial and dangerous frame of mind to where it becomes increasingly desirable to start committing murder. Bill Eddy: Makes sense. But most people in an office or in a marriage don't need to worry that they're with a serial killer because the numbers we're talking about are very small. Correct? Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah. It's a very unlikely confluence of circumstances. It's something that's made even increasingly difficult now thanks to video cameras being everywhere and people recording everything. I mean when looking at somebody like Hillside Strangler or Ted Bundy or Dahmer, or the early days of Joseph DeAngelo, the Golden State Killer, they had, forensically, they didn't have to worry much in terms of getting caught unless they were caught in the act. Somebody took a picture of their face or they left a fingerprint or something. But now with cameras and, of course, DNA, that would be the other big difference, which is how Deangelo was caught. It's very tough for the pattern that they typically exhibit to persist for too long. If you look at like Gary Ridgeway, he had a span of decades where he murdered women. That would be impossible or very unlikely these days. Bill Eddy: So it's interesting, we're seeing in some ways more high conflict behavior now, but it sounds like hopefully less serial killing because of today's technology. It enables people to send horrible emails and to post negative things, but I guess maybe impairs a murderer. So I guess that's a little encouraging. Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah. I would imagine. I mean one theory of criminality is that when you block off one crime, the criminal mentality doesn't change. It just goes to another crime. Like something becomes impossible... You know, if car theft became impossible, the same people that would steal cars, would go steal something else or do something else. So yeah. I mean anybody who would be a serial killer, but decided against it because they would get caught, is probably still a horrible person to interact with in many environments. Megan Hunter: So they're addicted to crime, essentially. Dr. Todd Grande: I think a serial killer's addicted to sexual domination. Megan Hunter: Mm. Dr. Todd Grande: I feel like that's what drives most of them and there's other ways to fulfill that desire, not necessarily homicide, exclusively, other types of criminal and I guess even consensual acts might satisfy that need. So they can redirect in that direction, but they still maintain that, I think, dangerous component, especially when you add in the impulsivity, along with that homicidal urge. Megan Hunter: Yeah. And back on the technology piece, there's a flip side, right? So you could imagine potential serial killers going on a dating app to meet women, to lure women in, women or men, I suppose, and using technology to do that, which using those dating apps, you just don't get the vibe that your brain is meant to get when you're in person that might warn you of danger. So you have to look for other things. I'm not sure that's what people are looking for when they're on Tinder right? Megan Hunter: So I don't think we're expecting someone to be a serial killer. But then on the flip side is, yeah, there are all these really great pieces of technology that can record things. Like, for example, the Teslas everything around them on video. So it's really hard to commit a crime around a Tesla, right? Dr. Todd Grande: It's interesting you brought up the dating because there was a serial killer named Rodney Alcala, who was actually on the Dating Game in, I think it was recorded in Los Angeles, Southern California. It was a popular show for a while. And he won. There was three bachelors or whatever. He was the one that the contestants selected. Megan Hunter: Oh dear. Dr. Todd Grande: And when they went backstage, I mean they met each other, whatever after the show, however that works. And usually that's kind have a happy time. I imagine the typical discourse would be like, oh, I'm glad I picked you. We'll go have fun on a date or whatever. But instead he was so creepy that the woman, the contestant who won, decided not to go out with him. Bill Eddy: A wise choice. Dr. Todd Grande: It was almost certainly a life saving choice, her life. But yeah, over Tinder and whatever else is available now with the internet she probably wouldn't have had the cues available to make that decision. Megan Hunter: Right. So the upside and downside of technology, I suppose. Bill Eddy: Well, this raises a question I want to put in here. And that is, you said she might not have seen the cues that she saw because she met him in person after the show. Are there cues that people can watch out for if they meet someone like this on the internet and then they go meet them in person and have lunch and decide if they're going to spend more time together? Is there anything that's obvious or is it well hidden? Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah, there are some things. I mean, and again, all the could occur without somebody being a serial killer, but one of the common things that people tend to notice early on is eye contact dysregulation. So either someone who stares intensely like the Ted Kaczynski, for example, or someone who averts eye contact, right, like a Joel Rifkin. Somebody that's not going to look you in the eyes at all. I think an early interest in sex in a dating relationship, like very early, like in the first 20 minutes of talking or whatever. Stereotypically grandiose behavior or dominant behavior, like say a restaurant, someone who's putting down the waiter or waitress, who's demanding service right away, who wants the best of everything, trying to show off, because even a vulnerable narcissist will present as a grandiose narcissist over brief periods of time. And dating is one of those times when a vulnerable narcissist will try to be strong and confident. So you could see that as well. But there's no set of warning signs that guarantee you've run into a serial killer. Bill Eddy: That's important, I think, for people to know. Megan Hunter: Yeah. So take your time I'm getting to know people, right. And maybe don't be in dark alleys alone with them at the beginning. Bill Eddy: You know, Megan and I wrote the book Dating Radar and on the survey we got, one of the things was the speed of sexuality and sensuality. And so we put in the book that you really want to wait at least a year before you make a big commitment like getting married, having a child, buying a house together. So I think, I think that reinforces that idea. Dr. Todd Grande: Serial killers often like to... They tend to have dramatic interests in dating. So they're going to want to move very fast. But then again, there's in a whole nother class of killer that would not function on a date at all, right. So a Rodney Alcala and Ted Bundy much different than a Dahmer or a Joel Rifkin or a David Berkowitz who are really socially awkward. Megan Hunter: Are there serial killers who are not socially awkward and use a laid back approach in the beginning to lure the person in? Like oh, I want to be careful and cautious of you, from their perspective. They're giving that message to their potential date. Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah. I mean, usually they're not that sophisticated, but certainly that's possible that they could look at other people's behavior like on television, the movies and mimic what they think they should be doing. But one of the other big warning signs that I'll mention is the lack of empathy. And that is something that if somebody cannot feel what you're feeling or cognitively understand what you're feeling, that's a very bad sign, not necessarily, again, a serial killer, but it's just a bad sign that they're probably not great at romantic relationships. Dr. Todd Grande: And that's something that can be tested. You can ask somebody what do you think I'm feeling right now? Or looking at another couple across a movie theater or restaurant, what do you think they're feeling? You know, they're talking to each other. Somebody who's psychopathic and highly narcissistic will not, grandiose narcissistic will generally not understand. And somebody who is vulnerable narcissism might misinterpret. So they can sometimes, because there's cognitive and affective empathy, so they sometimes have the cognitive empathy piece down, but they still make misinterpretations about the meaning. So they're still filtering it through their ability to feel, which is distorted. Bill Eddy: Interesting. Megan Hunter: Yeah. We talk about lack of empathy a lot when it comes to our definition of high conflict personalities and it may be a person who can have empathy, perhaps maybe someone with, with borderline personality, but when they're in an upset state, there's just no empathy for the other person. Right? Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah. Well, I think, too, it's about self-centeredness as well. You can know how somebody feels cognitively and not care. And I think that's largely what happens with psychopathy is there's a willful indifference and narcissism to some extent as well where they might get it, but they're so indifferent. It doesn't matter to such an extent that they're not going to act on it at all. So functionally, they have no empathy. Megan Hunter: Interesting. So when you wrote the character Rio Winston, your serial killer in Harm Reduction, is he an amalgam of different serial killers or did you just put different personality traits together or what was your direction? Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah, there's definitely some serial killers out there who offered... Their stories offered inspiration into that character development. I think Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer, just the high level of caution, I would say conscientiousness that he used, which was, I think probably more conscientious than any serial killer who's notorious that I can think of, to the point where in terms of the forensic police investigation, he threw them off with planting clues. And he thought through a lot. Dr. Todd Grande: One time he left tire tracks at a disposal site by accident, so he threw away all the tires and bought new tires, which I've never heard of a serial killer doing. So like what happens in somebody who's highly conscientious also has no empathy and wants to be sexually dominant. But there are other, I think, other killers that wove in there as well. Certainly Joseph Deangelo and Richard Ramirez, both home invaders, which is actually pretty unusual among serial killers. Most serial killers try to catch people in the open, out in public, not necessarily invading a house. Dr. Todd Grande: So that was factored in. A little bit of the deceptive nature that we see with the Hillside Strangler, Kenneth Bianchi, who fooled mental health professionals for a long time, convinced them that he had what they used to call multiple personality disorder, now called DID. So yeah, I took pieces of many, many of the killers. But then also some of the characteristics I've seen over the years on the obsessive compulsive side and how people rationalize bad acts regardless of what the bad act is and how no matter what roadblock they run into, they still manage to find another rationalization. So you discover that they really have a desire to commit the crime and the logic that gets them there, they fabricate as needed. Megan Hunter: Interesting. I read a review on one site that a reviewer said, "What I really love about this book is that some authors would've written this in the first person point of view, from Jenny's perspective, but I'm glad Grande didn't. His way gives the story more objectivity and insight, which Jenny just didn't have about herself anyway. She had some, but not enough, like a flashlight dim glow because of low batteries." Megan Hunter: I love that last part. Anyway, I'm wondering how or why you chose against writing it from a first person point of view from Jenny's perspective. Dr. Todd Grande: I think in a way it was like a big progress note, right? So when you treat clients or supervise counselors, you're writing in this objective, third person, point of view where you don't really believe anything, right. You're just noting what you're observing and you reserve any type of clinical judgment for when you have all the information together. So the first part of a progress notes really just observations and that can include distortions that people are putting out there. You're not saying they're true, but you're noting what they're saying. You're noting their thinking, flawed or not. So I wanted to contain all those aspects and have a good point of view for when Jenny and Rio pivoted, in the book the point where they pivot in different ways. And I wanted to make sure that that was something that was available third party, that people could watch and maybe even predict it to some extent as they're reading. Megan Hunter: It's a unique approach. And I really like that approach. What inspired you to write a fiction novel? We'll talk about your nonfiction series here in a minute, but what was behind this? Dr. Todd Grande: There's a lot of books out there, a lot of fiction books out there, they're very good that cover true crime, but having read so much on the topic, I felt like there was some nuances and even some major themes that were really glossed over or just not directly approached as somebody might look at a gap in the research literature, I saw a gap in the fictional literature. So I just wanted to fill that with something that I think didn't shy away from the depraved side of killers and the high level of distorted thinking. Dr. Todd Grande: Many killers are featured as very logical, like Dexter and Hannibal Lechter. Well Hannibal Lechter's nothing short of supernatural. He is very unrealistic. So they're fascinating characters and they're very well written, to be sure, but there's a realism that's missing from the well known, fictional serial killers. Megan Hunter: Yeah. I like that a lot. What would a mental health clinician learn from this book? Dr. Todd Grande: That's a good question. Megan Hunter: Yeah, that was a little bit of a surprise on you. Yeah. Dr. Todd Grande: I think it's anxiety provoking. I'm not learning, but I think it would be a little anxiety provoking because what if I end up seeing a client who's a serial killer- Megan Hunter: As long as they don't have a secret about you, you're probably okay. Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah. Well, that's it, clean living, right. That's one thing they could learn. But I think just maybe recognizing their own biases like Jenny seems so put together in one sense, getting a license and going to private practice, but so deeply flawed in another sense with her terrible secret and a history of drug use. And so may maybe just an opportunity to look at one's behavior and recognize what biases might be carried on. Dr. Todd Grande: Sometimes also in counseling, it helps to look at extremes and certainly the behavior in the book is quite extreme as compared to what any counselor is realistically ever going to see in practice. Megan Hunter: Yeah. Bill Eddy: So having been a therapist, I don't need to worry about reading this. It won't shock me too seriously? Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah. I don't think it'll damage any therapist, but- Bill Eddy: Okay. Dr. Todd Grande: I think the risk would be on a very new counselor, first getting into it to think, well, how many serial killers am I going to have and all this. Chances are none. So it'll work out. Megan Hunter: That's good. Is that satisfy your curiosity, Bill? Bill Eddy: Yes. And in my 12 year therapy experience, I don't think I ran into any, although I did meet Betty Broderick at a school meeting when I was talking about substance abuse treatment. And she came because of her two daughters. This is before she killed her husband. So I can say I met someone, but to my knowledge never had any in therapy. Megan Hunter: Yeah. So Todd, will there be a follow up book because that's what I'm already seeing in the Amazon reviews and other reviews is, "Hmm, we'd like to continue learning about these characters and how the story continues." Dr. Todd Grande: I certainly wrote the first one with a sequel as a potential. So it's mechanically built into the book. There's an opportunity to build on the story. Megan Hunter: Well, your publisher approves. Dr. Todd Grande: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm very open to it. I have a few ideas. That book took a long time. Well, it took a while to write, but it also was a long time to put together the major character descriptions and the shifts and the story. So there's a whole stage that occurs before I even write anything down or before I put a paragraph together or I'm doing outlines. And I have started to do that. I have started to outline. Dr. Todd Grande: For me, the organization's a big part of what makes a book work. That's one of the other things I saw in a lot of other books I read is I was frustrated with the way they bounced around without any type of justification to move the storyline. Almost like they just ran out of things to say, so they shifted. So I like everything to flow at a higher level before I can get it to flow at a mid and a and a detail level. So yeah, I think it's certainly possible. I have a few ideas that are coming together. Sequels in movies are always tricky, right. It's always a pothole. Megan Hunter: Yeah. Can be. Dr. Todd Grande: And I want to make sure that... I realize this isn't a movie, but I want to make don't run into a sequel error. Megan Hunter: Well, and that's the next question is, have you had any calls from movie studios yet? Dr. Todd Grande: I'd been thrilled if somebody who's interested. I think it could drive a pretty good movie. I think it's very dependent on the specific casting of Jenny. I don't see the Rio character as shockingly difficult to cast and certainly the detective's not, but I worry about who would play that counselor, because it's a very complex character Megan Hunter: Interesting. Hmm, no one comes to mind right off the bat so that's a dilemma, but I'm sure they could find someone. Megan Hunter: If you love personality theory, you'll love this book. If you love reading about serial killers, you'll love this book. And if you love plot and suspense, you'll love this book. And those are the reasons that I love this book. And I also love it because I, like Todd's almost 1 million YouTube subscribers, trust his expertise and his lack of bias really. Plus he always has these little clever zingers that are very funny and catch everyone by surprise. And you'll also see that in the book. So that's a lot of fun. Megan Hunter: Now, lastly, let's just talk quickly about the Notorious series. And the first in the series is the psychology of notorious serial killers, which came out over a year ago and has done quite well. It's a work of nonfiction that analyzes various notorious serial killers, many of whom you've already talked about on the episode today. Megan Hunter: So my question was going to be who are a few that you cover in and what information you provide about them. But I guess you've mentioned a couple, so let's talk more about the structure of the book. Maybe about the five factor analysis and what all you include in each chapter. Dr. Todd Grande: The formula that I use for videos is very similar to what I did for that book for the chapter level, which is a very compressed analysis that it's all detail rich. It does not just linger on and carry on. Just the facts that are necessary, but also some of those details that add to the story. And then a meaningful analysis. Dr. Todd Grande: And the five factor model is my favorite way of conceptualizing personality. It's far from perfect, but I actually think it's the best model available. And certainly there's the most research behind it. And it's based on five, we call the big five traits, openness to experience, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Largely pathology is explained on neuroticism, not entirely, but that's the one most associated with mental disorder and the other traits they explain characteristics and we see they're relatively stable throughout the lifespan. Dr. Todd Grande: So openness is people who are high in openness or intellectually curious, they tend to be liberal, creative, invested in fantasy, low tend to be more traditional and grounded, concrete, conscientiousness. Somebody's high in conscientiousness. They're going to be having good work ethic and be on time and be organized. And if they're low it's going to be the opposite. Extroversion is a pretty well known personality trait, probably the most famous where somebody who's high in extroversion sensation seeking, talkative, friendly, outgoing, they tend to be optimistic. Dr. Todd Grande: People who are low in extroversion, sometimes, it's called introverted, tend to be analytical, keep to themselves. They tend to recharge, energy wise, when they're alone, as opposed to an extrovert that seeks out people for energy. Dr. Todd Grande: Agreeableness, people who are high in agreeableness are very trusting and altruistic, and maybe a little gullible. People who are low are skeptical. They're critical thinkers and scientists and more likely to get in arguments. Dr. Todd Grande: And then neuroticism would be depression, anxiety, anger, vulnerability, inability to resist temptation. And so very high on neuroticism is considered unhealthy just because people are suffering all the time. But very low is just as bad because that's where you find people with no empathy and who are not moved by human experiences, who are not moved to compassion. Bill Eddy: Hmm. Now the next two in the notorious series is the psychology of notorious church killers and the psychology of notorious celebrity deaths, which both come out in 2022. Both are already receiving attention for obvious reasons. What are those two about? Dr. Todd Grande: Well, it's the same formula in essence where, where I'm analyzing mental health and personality factors, except with figures who are notorious for different reasons like the church killers. You see these spiritual gurus that have built cults and people like that, like the Marshall, Applewhites, Jim Jones, David Koresh. Dr. Todd Grande: And then with the celebrity deaths, tragic deaths, right? So not people that died from natural causes, but talking about tragic, usually young deaths, like musicians and actors and various people who for whatever reason could not compensate with developing fame and wealth. Megan Hunter: So those will be out in 2022, and we're pretty excited about those. So thank you for being with us today, Todd. We are really... It's been an interesting and fascinating discussion about your books and about serial killers, especially. So if you are looking for his books, they're available anywhere books are sold in print or as eBooks. And then the Psychology of Notorious Serial Killers is our already out and available as an audio book. So we'll put all the links to his books and to his YouTube channel in the show notes. And remember to go subscribe to his channel, get him to a million. Megan Hunter: So remember to rate and review us and tell your friends and colleagues about us, really means a lot to us. Megan Hunter: The next episode, we will again be joined by guest, retired judge, honorable Karen Adam, and attorney Annette Burns, who is a member of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers and past president of the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts, who, together with Bill, developed a six hour video series wherein they interviewed 16 leading domestic violence experts. Megan Hunter: This is especially applicable to family law and divorce, but it's really helpful to anyone who is wanting to know more about domestic violence and relationships. So you won't want miss this two part interview and until then, curl up with one of Todd's new books and enjoy a great read. Megan Hunter: Enjoy every day as we work toward understanding humans and infusing those around you with calmness. Megan Hunter: It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts at truestory.fm or highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. Megan Hunter: If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.