Latest / True Crime with Gavin Fish / What Makes Someone Kill Their Own Parents? | The Hollywood Homicide of Rob Reiner and Michele Singer

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What Makes Someone Kill Their Own Parents? | The Hollywood Homicide of Rob Reiner and Michele Singer · True Crime with Gavin Fish

0:02
Well, it's been over a week, almost two weeks, since
0:07
Hollywood icon Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle Reiner were
0:13
cut down to death in their home in Brentwood by, if you believe
0:18
what police and prosecutors say, their son Nick Reiner.
0:23
And the 64,000 question, $64,000 question that we're all asking
0:28
ourselves is why? Why did he allegedly do it?
0:35
And we've got a little insight into that now.
0:38
So stick around, let's talk about it.
0:52
This video contains mature themes and discussions intended
0:55
only for adult audiences. Viewer discretion is advised.
1:02
Hello there my friend, and welcome back to another true
1:04
kind conversation with me, Gavin Fish on the channel named after
1:09
me because I'm not all that creative when it comes to naming
1:13
YouTube channels. But what I lack in naming
1:17
capabilities I more than make up for with the gift of gab.
1:22
So hopefully that's your thing. Thank you for joining me
1:25
wherever you're joining me from. Please share in the comments
1:29
where you're joining me from. I just love to see where where
1:33
all of you guys are. Real quick is just a very fast
1:38
little primer on the case that we're talking about tonight on
1:42
December 14th, Hollywood icons Rob and Michelle Reiner we're in
1:47
their Brentwood home when they missed an appointment.
1:52
I guess is the best way to say that a massage therapist came
1:55
over for an appointment could not get in, called the Reiner's
2:01
daughter who came over to the house and discovered that her
2:04
parents were deceased. This is this is a real elevator
2:09
pitch version of this but discovered that they were
2:11
deceased inside their home several hours later.
2:15
The couple's son Nick, who had worked for Castle Rock as a
2:21
producer and as a screenwriter. Castle Rock being the company
2:25
that Rob Reiner founded or Co founded and he has been charged
2:31
with first degree murder. 2 counts first degree murder of
2:34
his dad Rob Reiner and his mom Michelle Singer Reiner.
2:40
Now the question that we're all asking ourselves, I at least I
2:44
think I'm asking myself, let's, let's put it that way.
2:47
The question that I'm asking myself is why?
2:51
I mean, we need to know. We don't need to know, but we
2:54
just want to know the motive. We want to know what would make
2:58
a 30 something year old man take a knife to and violently slash
3:06
or stab or otherwise cut his parents to death.
3:11
What is it now we have? We understand that there is a
3:17
lot of substance abuse in the past of Mr. Nick Reiner.
3:23
We understand that he had some mental health crises that he had
3:29
been going through at least in the last couple of years of his
3:33
life. And if we listen to his
3:36
attorney, the now famous Alan Jackson, who has defended the
3:42
likes of Karen Reed successfully, but also Harvey
3:45
Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, this is a guy that is has no strange, is
3:50
no stranger to complex legal cases, right?
3:54
And mounting very good defenses. He is saying there are complex.
4:01
I've used that word too many Times Now, legal questions in
4:06
this case, which leads me down the road of believing that we're
4:11
talking about an insanity defense here.
4:14
Now, before we totally get in to tonight's live stream, let's
4:18
bring up our victims one more time.
4:20
Let's see where you guys are coming in from.
4:22
We got Jacksonville, FL Thank you very much for being here.
4:26
Warrensville, NC. Glad you are here.
4:28
Hickory, NC. New York City, The villages in
4:33
Florida, Brooklyn, NY I don't need to give away tons of
4:39
personal information but I am going to be in Brooklyn, NY here
4:42
pretty soon on a little visit. Henderson, NV, Howell, MI,
4:47
Oceanside, CA Glad you're here around Lake Illinois, Ontario,
4:52
Canada, back to Chicago, IL what else have we got?
4:57
1000 islands somewhere in Canada must be must be on the East
5:03
Coast I guess I'm guessing I don't know Saint Andrews,
5:06
Scotland in the house Jersey, northern British Columbia,
5:10
Tyler, TX east Brewton, AL skating in from Erie, PA We got
5:16
a lot of ice storms out here in northwestern Pennsylvania so
5:18
thank you very much guys are coming in Sam Simeon,
5:21
Springfield, Orlando. Thank you very much for joining
5:24
me. OK, couple days ago by the way,
5:28
I should pause here for a second and wish you all well.
5:32
I, I guess I should just say I hope that you all who celebrated
5:35
Christmas have had a wonderful Christmas.
5:38
We had a Merry Christmas here in the fish household.
5:41
Very low key, but maybe the highlight of it was, well,
5:46
highlight of it was my in laws and brother-in-law were here
5:49
visiting, but also our older children got us matching jam
5:53
jams for for Christmas. And it was a particularly good
5:58
choice for those of us in the family who just love old Disney
6:02
movies. It was awesome.
6:04
So I hope you had a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah and
6:08
those of you that are celebrating Kwanzaa and other
6:10
other holidays, I hope that that is wonderful, wonderful for you
6:15
as well. OK, let me bring you over, if I
6:19
may, over to this article from people.
6:23
Where is it? Right here.
6:25
OK, this, this was a fascinating read for me.
6:29
A couple of it was on Christmas Eve.
6:32
Fact, this is what we were going.
6:34
Maybe not Christmas Eve, the 23rd, maybe I think it was the
6:37
23rd. This was what we were going to
6:39
cover. But then we got the news that
6:44
Melody Buzzard's body had been found.
6:46
So we got sidetracked. But this, and we're coming back
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to this, it's super fascinating to me why some people kill their
6:55
parents. Is that called patricide?
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Is that what it's called? OK.
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Nick Reiner, 32, is charged with murder in the stabbing deaths.
7:09
Well, the the sharp instrument deaths of his parents, Rob
7:14
Reiner and Michelle Singer Reiner.
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The double killing of 1's parents known as parricide.
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Did I say patricide? So parricide is a rare event,
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according to Doctor Kathleen Haida, PhD, professor of
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criminology at the University of South Florida and author of Why
7:32
Kids Kill Parents, Child Abuse and Adolescent Homicide.
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The The title of the book doesn't closely match this
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crime, though, does it? Because she's talking about
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children and adolescence. Oops.
7:49
Mr. Nick Reiner is an adult. He's he's a big boy.
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He's an adult man, 32 years old quote.
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There are only about 250 parasite cases each year, and
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fewer than 20 of those are double parasites where both the
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mother and father are killed, the expert tells people.
8:09
That's actually more than I thought.
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That seems that seems like a lot.
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I know that she said there are only, but it does seem like a
8:15
lot. Continuing the quote, among
8:18
those cases, most doing the killing are adults or over 18,
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she says, and they are mostly male.
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Still, it's a very, very rare event, which is a good thing.
8:31
I would say 1 is probably too many, but but yeah, it's good,
8:35
good characterization. When it comes to a case like the
8:38
Reiners, which Haida is not involved with, she says most
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people want to understand how such a terrible thing could
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happen. That is where I am on this
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quote. It really touches home.
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It creates a question of could it happen to me?
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And that's legitimate. She says parents in most cases
8:57
are the people who love you the most.
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And in the case of Rob and Michelle Reiner, what's so
9:02
horrifying is that we have every reason to believe that these
9:05
were two loving, devoted, good parents.
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And that that is what it seems like to me, too.
9:13
It seems like they these are people with deep love and
9:19
caring, especially for their son who has struggled for so, so
9:23
long. Continuing the quote.
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So when something this rare does happen, people tend to want to
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know what drove this. Haida says four types of
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children commit parasite. 1st is the abused offender.
9:40
The first type is the severely abused offender.
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Haida says it's usually a juvenile who is still living at
9:48
home where there is long standing abuse, typically
9:52
physical, maybe sexual, verbal abuse and psychological abuse.
9:57
There's also almost always parental neglect.
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I'm going to finish this before I share my thoughts.
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The motive is desperation. Perhaps the person has tried
10:07
other ways to get help, or maybe they've told a teacher or
10:11
authorities or they're so worried they're going to be
10:14
killed or a sibling will be killed.
10:17
So that's one type. And it definitely exists more so
10:20
with adolescents who feel trapped and don't have criminal
10:23
records. They are quote UN quote good
10:25
kids. Tell me in the in the comments
10:30
your thoughts on this type of offender.
10:33
I'd really like to hear what you guys have to say and whether or
10:36
not you think that Nick Reiner may qualify here.
10:41
Now, I know she says it's usually juvenile, but he was
10:44
living at home or at least on the property, like in a guest
10:46
house. Is it possible that he had a
10:49
stunted, I guess emotional growing up?
10:54
Was there an emotional failure to launch?
10:56
Was he a child? Did he feel desperation?
11:04
Did he feel like he was trapped? I I kind of feel like of course
11:11
the she's just breaking down complex psychological, I guess
11:18
things. I I can't even say the right
11:20
word into four very basic categories.
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But is it possible that Nick Reiner could belong to this
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category? Does I, I, I would never accuse
11:36
the Reiners of any type of abuse, but I mean, I have every
11:39
reason to believe that that is not the case.
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But are there other parts of this that might feel true, like,
11:47
like emotional stuntedness, desperation, possible?
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Love to love to hear your thoughts on that.
11:55
Love to hear your thoughts on all of this and I'm going to go
11:57
back. Be sure to put GF in your
11:59
comment so that I'll be able to see it easily on my end.
12:03
OK. The second is the mentally ill
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offender and now I think we're getting somewhere right?
12:08
The second time a type of offender according to Hida is
12:12
severely mentally ill. Quote these individuals have a
12:16
long standing. Excuse me?
12:19
These individuals have a long standing history of mental
12:22
illness, often schizophrenia or on the schizophrenia spectrum.
12:28
Sometimes it's bipolar disorder with psychotic features, but
12:32
they're typically on medication. And when the killing happens,
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it's frequently because they've gone off their medication.
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And this this kind of rings true when I was telling you about the
12:45
this wasn't parasite, but the case that I covered here in
12:49
western Pennsylvania in the capacity of my day job as a
12:53
reporter where he had not taken his prescribed meds.
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He said they made him feel lethargic.
13:00
Of course, then he had this major psychotic issue.
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And what happens anyway? So continuing the quote.
13:11
So they have delusions. I've seen cases where they think
13:14
God is commanding them to kill or the devil is man.
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She is hitting that case that I covered right on the money man.
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In his case, he he thought that God was telling him what to do.
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She continues. They hear voices, they get
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signs. It's not real, but they believe
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it is. Nick was reportedly taking
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medication for schizophrenia before the killing of his
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parents, according to the Los Angeles Times.
13:42
OK category #3 And this, this, I mean, the just the title really
13:51
reflects Nick to ATI think the dangerously antisocial offender.
13:56
Remember we talked about reports coming out of Conan O'Brien's
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holiday party, which of course is a giant game of telephone.
14:05
We we know. But you know, the whole idea of
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him doing the 1000 yard stare or interrupting private
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conversations or, you know, they said the yelling thing didn't
14:17
happen, but arguing with his dad, That sort of stuff.
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OK, the dangerously antisocial offender, The third type of
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person who commits parasite. Oh my goodness.
14:28
Excuse me. Wow, so unprofessional, Gavin.
14:32
It's classified as dangerously antisocial, Haida says.
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Quote. These are individuals who want
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to kill a parent to achieve a selfish instrumental and they
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may want their parents money, they may believe they're being
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cut out of the will or want their inheritance.
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Now, in some cases, females kill for love because their parents
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object to their boyfriend and they want to be free to be in a
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relationship. She adds.
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In these cases, these parents are obstacles.
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So they think let's remove the obstacle, let's get rid of the
15:06
parent. They really think that will make
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everything fine. They're not thinking about the
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repercussions. And this is making me wonder
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about, I mean, this was a very well to do family, very
15:17
successful. I think the net worth was in the
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hundreds of 1,000,000 here. Was he concerned that because of
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his behavior, he would stood to lose out on some inheritance
15:31
that he perceived he had claimed to that, by the way, is so just
15:36
off to me. I don't I just don't believe and
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I'm I'm probably in the minority here, but I just don't believe
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children have a right to their parents things just because they
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are their parents children. I, I love it when I hear of
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millionaires and billionaires just giving away everything.
15:54
I think of like Jon Huntsman, the the cancer guy, the
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chemicals guy, right? Kids, Kids got an education,
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they got raised my fortunes going to charity.
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I like that kind of stuff. But anyway, Haida adds that
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antisocial offenders often have a pattern of breaking the law or
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being oppositional. Kind of feels like Nick to me as
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a layperson sitting in the world's messiest Home Office in
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the world. It just kind of feels like it.
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They've also usually been diagnosed as having antisocial
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personality disorder. They manipulate, they're good at
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it. Oh, and remember, remember the
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recordings that we listen to about getting the getting the
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rehab center to get him on medication?
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He completely manipulated that. They lie convincingly and often
16:50
to get what they want. They're grandiose.
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Goodness sake, it's not even late and think they're the best
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at whatever they do. They don't take responsibility
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and everything is everyone else's fault.
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They usually want lots of money but won't put in the effort.
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Interesting. Remember to tell me what you
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think in the in the live chat or in the if you're in the rewatch
17:19
crew or on the podcast, put it in the comments.
17:22
OK? The 4th is the enraged offender.
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The 4th type, she says is the enraged offender quote.
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This is an individual who kills their parents because of
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conflict and they're in a state of rage, she says, continuing
17:38
the quote. There are a number of pathways
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to that rage, and sometimes it's abuse and neglect, but sometimes
17:44
it's because the parents have been overindulgent.
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They want to give their kids everything and always clean up
17:51
their messes. But there comes a point when
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they tell the child it's time to grow up and take care of
17:58
themselves. These kids don't have
18:00
frustration tolerance, so it leads to rage.
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It's almost like having a temper tantrum, but they're big and
18:07
strong. Haida adds that none of the
18:10
above can be determined quickly. Quote, you have to make sure to
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find out what drove the offender.
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You need to talk to them. You're not going to find out
18:18
what happened in a 30 minute interview.
18:20
It's always important to talk to surviving relatives to
18:23
understand the household dynamics.
18:26
Always get the long term mental health, medical records, their
18:29
struggles and parental involvement.
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All those things are critical. Close quote As for parents who
18:37
are worried it could happen to them, she says it's important to
18:40
take any threats of harm seriously.
18:41
We talk about this on this channel, right?
18:44
Usually it's in terms of if a partner expresses that they want
18:50
to do you harm, believe them, right?
18:52
But same same is true for anyone.
18:55
If anyone expresses that they want to do you harm, believe
18:59
them. Take it seriously.
19:02
Haida quote. Haida continues your quote.
19:04
I don't care what age they are, if they say I'm going to kill
19:08
you, it's not an OK thing to say.
19:10
Set boundaries, get them evaluated, she adds.
19:13
Happy and healthy kids don't kill their parents.
19:17
Indeed. Most of all, she says that every
19:20
parasite case she's ever evaluated or worked on is
19:24
extremely sad. And we're feeling this is, well,
19:29
what we're trying to do on the channel, as you guys know, as we
19:32
are trying to be curious and learn lessons and try to figure
19:38
out why this happened, but temper it with humanity and with
19:42
kindness. OK.
19:45
So she says they're all tragic. The parents are gone.
19:48
The family is forever changed, The alleged offender's life is
19:51
forever changed, and their friends are forever changed.
19:54
The trauma extends to the community and everyone who knew
19:59
and loved them. And of course, the Rhiners had
20:02
many, many people. Who knew and loved them?
20:06
Let me go over to your comments to see what you guys are saying
20:10
over here. Just get a couple of OK
20:16
Wonderkel says Gavin, I think there has to be an underlying
20:22
serious psychological issue. I had all of that and was very
20:26
much not listened to. I was self aware enough not to
20:29
even consider it. Well, I'm happy for that,
20:32
Pauline Buckles says. Or his medication was changed.
20:34
Yeah, maybe it wasn't that he was off his medication.
20:36
Maybe his medication was changed and it wasn't.
20:39
And, and we've heard those reports, right, that they've
20:42
been, they were trying to find the right medication for him.
20:46
Cooler by the Lake says if being a spoiled nepo baby constitutes
20:51
abuse, then he qualifies. His mental illness and possible
20:55
brain damage from long standing drug abuse is most likely the
20:58
culprit in my opinion. Georgia 75231 says.
21:06
As a former judge, I can tell you parents who try to fix
21:10
everything for their children and never allow them to have
21:12
consequences, raise criminals or mentally ill and or substance
21:17
addicted adults. You know, I, I don't want to, I
21:23
don't want to accuse anyone of anything, nor do I want to say
21:31
anything that is patently untrue.
21:34
But according to everything that I observe, I, I kind of think
21:41
that way in terms of like Sam Goldberg, in the Alan Greenberg
21:43
case where Sam was reportedly everything was fixed for him.
21:49
Kid could get away with anything.
21:51
He was kind of a troublemaker. So it doesn't surprise me that
21:55
he would be, that he might have done to Ellen what I think he
22:01
did. I, he's my my suspect.
22:04
Of course, I don't know that. But that kind of thing where
22:08
you're right, they get everything handed to them.
22:11
They make mistakes but don't have to live up to the
22:13
consequences of those mistakes. That's that's a bad recipe for
22:18
sure. Pauline Buckle says It concerns
22:22
me that the Rhiners left their son at the party where he could
22:25
have been a danger to other guests.
22:28
Well, I think The thing is that the Reiners probably didn't
22:32
didn't consider him dangerous. And remember, everything that we
22:36
have heard come out of that party has been 1/3 a third party
22:44
telling us that unnamed sources, sometimes multiple sources,
22:48
sometimes a single source, but unnamed sources.
22:50
So we don't really know what was happening at that party.
22:53
And I, and I, I think that the fact that they took him, you
22:59
know, when you're in your 70s, it's just, it is completely
23:03
unfair that a couple in their 70s would have to be so
23:08
concerned about the well-being of their son that they bring him
23:11
along to their social events. I almost feel I I was about to
23:17
say maybe not, maybe don't go, but they shouldn't have to worry
23:24
about their 30 year old son. I just yeah, I don't know, but
23:32
it's a good comment. Pauline, let's see a Nunya mouse
23:40
says schizophrenia tends to start in teenage years, although
23:44
there are exceptions. I'm pretty sure antisocial
23:46
develops earlier grade schooler before.
23:49
Thanks for thanks for that, G smiles.
23:52
Sarah, greetings from Colorado. This is so tragic and
23:55
depressing. Sending prayers to those who may
23:56
need them. God knows and is always holding
23:59
you in the palm of his hands. Thank you for that.
24:03
Ananya Maus also says so if the stealing, lying, etcetera,
24:06
started when teenage with teenage years with a drug
24:09
addiction, then I don't think it's antisocial disorder.
24:13
Yeah, good. That's a that's that's a very
24:15
good comment. Yeah, So when I look at this,
24:21
when I look at the list, if I can go back to it real quick, I
24:26
I kind of feel like he fits into just the mentally ill offender.
24:31
That's what I think. Just feel like.
24:34
Yeah. And maybe it's an artifact of
24:36
the drug abuse. Maybe it's an artifact of, of,
24:40
you know, just genetic inheritance or, or behavior and
24:51
the I don't, I don't even know, I have no idea.
24:54
But I just, I feel like, you know, when we look at pictures
24:57
of him, it just like I just, I just feel like, I feel, I feel
25:04
like he checks out. You know, we watched that video
25:08
of him on the podcast where when his dad was speaking, he just
25:11
kind of checked out like he's just not not there all the time.
25:16
And very sad, very sad for him, very sad for his brother and
25:24
sisters, right. The whole thing, it's just so
25:27
sad. OK, come with me now, if you
25:29
will. That had one other one other
25:33
article that came out specifically about his legal
25:37
offense that I thought was a terrific article that came out
25:41
in the new not and I'm sorry, the LA Times this from day
25:46
before yesterday, Christmas Eve. And let's let's take a look at
25:49
this article here real quick inside Nick Reiner's legal
25:52
defense against murder charges written by Richard Winton from
25:55
the LA Times. The slayings of Hollywood legend
25:59
Rob Reiner and his photographer wife Michelle have given rise to
26:03
a complex. There's that word again.
26:05
Complex and intensely watched legal struggle involving their
26:10
accused son, prosecutors and defense attorneys, who all face
26:14
key strategic decisions in the coming weeks and months.
26:18
Prosecutors allege Nick Reiner fatally stabbed his parents
26:22
inside the master bedroom of their Brentwood home early on
26:25
Sunday morning, then fled the area.
26:28
They have offered no motive for the December 14th attack, but
26:32
Nick Reiner struggled with addiction for years, and he had
26:37
been prescribed medication for schizophrenia at some point
26:39
before the killings, according to two sources with knowledge of
26:43
the criminal investigation. Very interesting, like two
26:49
sources with knowledge of the investigation.
26:53
Sources have also said he got into some kind of argument with
26:56
Rob Reiner at a Christmas party hours before the slaying.
27:00
Legal experts say Reiner's mental condition and the details
27:03
of what happened at the party could be important elements of
27:06
the case. Which is going to be interesting
27:09
if this goes to trial because they're going to parade in
27:14
people that were at that party. A complete assessment of his
27:19
mental health will probably take months, and the results of that
27:23
could influence how both sides proceed and whether prosecutors
27:26
seek the death penalty. Reiner, 32, is charged with two
27:30
counts of murder and could face life in prison without parole or
27:33
the death penalty if convicted of the special circumstance
27:37
allegation of multiple murders. That special circumstance was
27:41
that he used a deadly weapon which was a knife if I remember
27:45
correctly. May correct me if I'm wrong in
27:48
the comments. Reiner appeared in court
27:51
December 17th wearing a blue suicide prevention smock
27:54
so-called turtle suit, which is issued to defendants who pose a
27:57
risk of self harm. A judge approved attorney Alan
28:01
Jackson's request to continue Reiner's arraignment to January
28:04
7th, which we'll be watching for.
28:10
Guys, I think I'm just coming down from a Christmas high.
28:13
I'm crashing here, Crashing. Lou Shapiro, a Los Angeles
28:23
defense attorney, said he expects that Jackson is now
28:26
working to evaluate Reiner's history of mental health and
28:30
state of mind during the Commission of a crime.
28:33
That is going to take time for the experts to prepare a report.
28:36
Those findings could be the basis for discussions of a plea
28:40
deal or the beginning of an insanity defense, according to
28:43
Shapiro and others. Remember, if he invokes an
28:47
insanity defense, the burden is shifted.
28:51
The prosecution typically has to prove that there was a murder
28:57
and that all the elements of murder, including whodunit, if
29:05
it's a typical case. But if the defense is saying
29:07
temporary insanity, they're basically saying, no, he did it.
29:11
So the prosecution doesn't have to prove anything.
29:13
Now, the defense has the burden beyond the preponderance of the
29:17
evidence that he was legally insane at the time he did it.
29:22
And that's, that's actually, I mean, the preponderance of the
29:26
of the evidence is a lower bar than beyond a reasonable doubt,
29:29
but it's still a very high burden.
29:34
Continuing the article, the brutal killings of the Rhiners
29:36
stunned the world, and the stakes are going to be high for
29:39
Los Angeles County District Attorney Nathan Hochman and his
29:42
staff, who have vowed justice for the beloved couple.
29:46
Shapiro said Hochman is unlikely to consider a punishment less
29:49
than life without the possibility of parole since he
29:53
has already alleged special circumstances.
29:57
Quote, it's going to be hard for him politically to walk that
30:00
back. Shapiro said Nima Ramani, a
30:06
former federal prosecutor, agreed, but said he would be
30:11
surprised if prosecutors sought the DP.
30:14
Quote, California hasn't carried out an execution in decades, and
30:19
Newsom has placed a moratorium on the penalty.
30:22
He said it's still highly unlikely that Nick is executed,
30:26
that the possibility of the death penalty may be used by the
30:29
prosecution to leverage a plea. More likely, this won't be a
30:33
capital case and it will go to trial because the prosecution
30:37
won't offer anything less than life without the possibility of
30:39
parole. And if that is true, if the if,
30:42
if he thinks the prosecution is kind of stuck politically and
30:46
cannot offer anything less than life without the possibility of
30:49
parole, then it's going to trial.
30:52
I mean, there's no incentive for somebody to plea to a crime
30:59
where they're looking at life, right?
31:02
The Conan O'Brien party could be key.
31:05
Tell me what you think about that.
31:06
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong.
31:09
The case is in its earliest stages and prosecutors have
31:12
presented very little evidence against Nick Reiner, including
31:16
forensics videos or other data, so it's impossible to know
31:20
precisely what will happen next. Prosecutors have not commented
31:24
on the allegation that Rob and Nick Reiner exchanged words at
31:27
Conan O'Brien's Christmas party. Some family friends told the
31:31
Times the clash had been overblown.
31:34
We talked about that in our last video about this case.
31:36
But Romani said prosecutors could use it.
31:39
He said it could be used as evidence of premeditation.
31:42
Quote, if you get into an argument with someone and you
31:45
come back with a weapon, that's premeditation. close quote
31:49
Rahmani also said prosecutors could use the argument to fight
31:54
with insanity defense. Oh, interesting.
31:56
If you're capable enough, he says in a quote, to have an
32:00
argument with your parents at a Christmas party, you're not
32:02
insane, Armani said. Interesting.
32:06
OK, the insanity defense has challenges.
32:08
Defense attorney Dmitri Goran, a former LA County prosecutor,
32:13
said Jackson's first task is assessing his clients mental
32:16
health. This is guys, this is going to
32:19
take so long. That assessment, I mean, think
32:22
about the case of Kevin Mullins, right?
32:26
We have been looking at the case of Kevin Mullins since
32:29
September, September of 2024, not, not September, not this
32:37
past September. It's well over a year and we
32:41
still aren't to the point that we like have any assurance that
32:47
there's going to be an insanity defense here, right?
32:51
So this, this one is going to take a long, long time.
32:57
So that assessment could ultimately lead to a not guilty
33:00
by insanity plea, but could also provide evidence to move Reiner
33:05
from the county jail to a private psychiatric facility.
33:08
Quote, The most important thing in criminal cases is to have the
33:12
clients get immediate treatment and be able to cooperate in his
33:16
defense, which will not happen while he's in jail.
33:18
He said, yeah, it's very difficult to get the right
33:22
medication and so forth when you're in jail.
33:25
Goran said that the insanity defense is particular,
33:28
particularly tough in California and that in rare cases, it must
33:32
be proved that a defendant did not know right from wrong.
33:35
Quote, The burden of proof is on the defense in an insanity case,
33:39
and the jury may see the defense as an excuse for committing a
33:42
serious crime, he said. The jury sets a very high bar on
33:47
the defendant because it understands that it will release
33:50
him from legal responsibility. Of course, if he if he's found
33:54
not guilty by reason of legal insanity, he'd still would be
33:57
committed somewhere. Sources told the Times that
34:00
after the killing, Nick Reiner went to a hotel in Santa Monica.
34:04
He was arrested on Sunday night near USC.
34:06
His overall movements that day remain unclear.
34:09
Neither Jackson nor prosecutors would comment on the direction
34:12
of the case. OK, the last little bit here.
34:16
Complex issues. There's that word again.
34:18
Jackson is called the killings a devastating tragedy, but he
34:22
cautioned the public not to rush to judgment or jump to
34:25
conclusions, saying there are very complex and serious issues
34:30
that need to be thoroughly but very carefully dealt with and
34:33
examined and looked at and analyzed.
34:35
That that is missing a quote and a close quote in that doesn't
34:39
matter. Nick Reiner's addiction has been
34:42
public for years. He has said in interviews that
34:44
it became addicted to heroin as a teenager and it cycled in and
34:47
out of rehabilitation centers and experienced bouts of
34:51
homelessness. Reiner said he was no longer
34:54
using by 2015 when he Co wrote Being Charlie, a film about a
34:58
drug addicted young man whose father is a cold former movie
35:02
star running for governor of California.
35:05
Rob Reiner directed the film. Very interesting.
35:07
Though his dad never ran for public office, he was
35:11
politically active and actually ran or was at least the the
35:19
primary celebrity behind several campaigns, not only for office,
35:25
but also for what do they call those for propositions in
35:32
California? I remember when we lived there,
35:35
Nick Reiner has no criminal history and at the time of the
35:38
killing was living in the back House of the Reiner's property.
35:42
Let's see what you guys are saying over in the comments.
35:45
I am curious. Let's bring up our victims one
35:50
more time. That's an older photo, of
35:52
course, but let's see. Jay Lando, 9161, says Gavin.
36:00
This reminds me of two other recent parasite cases, that of
36:04
the Guy family in Tennessee and that family in Wisconsin.
36:07
Do we see similarities in the relationship with those families
36:10
to those sons? We'll have to take a look at it.
36:12
Yeah, The, the, the, the case, the the parasite case that
36:19
immediately just came to my mind, obviously was it's an
36:22
obvious one. It's the Menendez brothers,
36:23
right. But in that case, they that was
36:26
one where they were saying that they were terribly abused by
36:29
their parents. Yeah.
36:32
Thanks for that comment, Sunshine 22 XYZ.
36:37
Gavin, what do you make that Nick was wearing different
36:42
clothes and had black backpack when he went.
36:45
Then when arrested, when he had a red backpack.
36:50
I, I do think that there were, he probably had blood on his
36:53
clothes. It's very difficult to do the
36:57
stabby stabby and not get blood on you.
36:59
So I imagine that he did. Why did he have two backpacks?
37:03
That that is kind of strange, right?
37:08
I mean, does that mean that he packed bags like he knew he was
37:12
going to the hotel And and the whole checking into the hotel
37:16
under his name using his credit card was also just absolutely
37:19
strange. Ananya Mao says Gavin allegedly
37:24
Romy has said that she was for quite a while feel fearful that
37:29
her brother would kill her. I don't know who the source was,
37:32
but in pictures she looks like she's cringing when he's also in
37:37
it. I wasn't able to verify that
37:41
though. That was in the early reporting
37:43
from like The Hollywood Reporter, TMZ.
37:48
But I, but I haven't seen any verification of that anybody, so
37:54
I don't know. But yeah, I mean, the picture
37:59
that I, that I put up for the thumbnail to this video had Nick
38:05
right next to Romy. Very, Yeah, very interesting.
38:12
And then Moonlight View for you says no criminal history.
38:19
Yeah, I he has to have criminal history.
38:22
He's chock full of drugs, right? But maybe no arrests, which I
38:28
guess is the technical reason of criminal history.
38:33
Little Paddy 50, maybe Nikki had clean clothes and one bag.
38:36
Possible. So I mean, this is something to
38:40
think about. I mean, I think it, it will
38:45
satiate my curiosity quite a bit when we start to hear a little
38:49
bit about about motive, because right now it's all speculation.
38:54
And of course we're trying to temper that with, with humanity,
38:59
right, and compassion. But yeah, it'll, it will, it
39:05
will satiate my curiosity when we start to learn a little bit
39:10
of the reason why. And of course, I always point
39:12
this out. And you guys know, I always
39:13
point this out, but in a typical case, one of the elements of
39:20
murder that the prosecution would have to prove, one of
39:25
those elements is not motive. Motive never has to be proved,
39:30
legally speaking. Now, practically speaking,
39:34
jurors want to know why the person did it.
39:37
Why? Because jurors are human.
39:39
They we all want to know so it's going to be interesting to see
39:44
what happens All right let's let's take a look at a couple
39:48
headlines, shall we true crime headlines pow OK, in this
40:00
segment we just go through and take a look at some of the cases
40:02
that we are following this one is a case that we.
40:06
Are definitely following Ashley Buzzard who was arrested what, 2
40:10
days ago or three days ago in the murder of her daughter
40:14
Melody. She has pleaded not guilty to
40:18
that murder charge. This from ABC News written by
40:21
Alex Stone and Emily Shapiro Ashley Buzzard has been charged
40:25
with murder with special allegations in the shooting
40:28
death of her nine year old daughter Melody Buzzard,
40:31
according to court documents. Let's bring up a little picture
40:34
of Melody. The special allegations charge
40:38
claims that Ashley Buzzard personally and intentionally
40:42
discharged a firearm causing death and committed the murder
40:47
by means of lying in wait. She entered a not guilty plea at
40:54
her arraignment on Friday, according to Santa Barbara ABC
40:59
affiliate KEYT. So today, so when she entered
41:02
her plea, Ashley Buzzard was arrested on Tuesday for
41:06
allegedly killing Melody, who was shot in the head and found
41:09
dead in a rural area area of Utah in early December,
41:12
according to Santa Barbara County Sheriff's.
41:14
And we covered this in pretty great detail on Tuesday.
41:19
So that's number one. Number two, Nova Scotia missing
41:23
kids, Jack and Lily Sullivan. The case, extremely rare.
41:26
According to one Mountie, it's been 8 months since Lily and
41:31
Jack Sullivan disappeared, and a Nova Scotia RCMP criminal
41:35
operations officer says in his 30 years of policing, he's never
41:39
seen a case like this. Of course, Jack and Lily
41:41
Sullivan, if you guys remember, let me bring up their photo
41:45
here. 2 little kiddos, ages four and six, who reportedly
41:50
disappeared out of their parents.
41:54
Well, their moms and their stepdads rural Nova Scotia home.
41:59
This is a picture of the the home here back in well, eight
42:06
months ago. When was that was that was it in
42:10
April? I think that it happened anyway,
42:14
continuing the article quote, it's extremely rare.
42:17
I've never seen it across my career.
42:19
But while it's rare, what's the part that isn't rare is the
42:22
complexity of the case, like why it's taking so long because
42:26
these investigations have to be done in a methodical approach,
42:30
Dan Morrow said in a year end interview with Global News.
42:34
It started to generate a lot of national media attention and
42:36
even international. Yeah, the six and five year old
42:40
siblings, they're saying, I remember it being 6:00 and 4:00
42:42
at the time, were reported missing from their Lansdowne
42:45
Station home in rural Pictou County on May 2nd.
42:49
An extensive search followed their disappearance with
42:52
agencies from across the region using search and rescue
42:55
volunteers, drones, police dogs and helicopters.
42:59
The search covered 4 square kilometers of heavily wooded
43:03
rural terrain and they still to this day have not been found.
43:09
Finally in our headlines going back to the Lake and Snelling
43:14
case. Do you guys remember Lake and
43:16
Snelling? She was the University of
43:18
Kentucky cheerleader, former beauty queen who was she's
43:25
accused of killing her infant who she gave birth to live and
43:31
then and then ignored it, I guess neglected it him her.
43:37
I don't know what what, what the baby was.
43:41
OK. UK medical records subpoenaed
43:43
for Lake and Snelling after infant death, says the headline
43:49
Prosecutors in the case against Lake and Snelling, the former
43:52
University of Kentucky student charged in the death of her
43:54
newborn infant, have requested medical records that could be
43:57
related to the case from the University of Kentucky Medical
44:00
Center, according to new court records.
44:02
According to Fayette County District Court records, a
44:04
subpoena was delivered to UK Medical Center on December 10th,
44:08
requesting all records on Snelling created since August
44:13
2024 by January 20th, 2026. The subpoena was returned
44:18
December 22nd, records show. Snelling, 21, is facing charges
44:23
of concealing the birth of an infant, tampering with physical
44:26
evidence and abuse of corpse. During a September 26th hearing,
44:30
a judge sent the case to the grand jury.
44:33
Snelling was a University of Kentucky senior, not a United
44:36
Kingdom. UK, in this case stands for
44:38
University of Kentucky. She was a senior and a member of
44:42
the university's stunt team. She was placed on home
44:46
confinement with electronic monitoring, according to court
44:48
records. Now, this is a case that has
44:51
been silent for months, so it's good to see that there is
44:56
something happening in the case. Let's see.
45:00
I just want to make sure. Yeah, I will come to your to
45:08
your comments at the end. But my wife has been reminding
45:12
me my sweetie pie, my snuggly bear, my one and only, that I
45:17
need to do the next segment correctly.
45:19
I've been messing up everybody. She's been giving me notes.
45:23
They're good notes. Let's get into it. 3 questions
45:34
How? OK, this is the final segment of
45:36
the show, everybody. And in this segment, I answer 3
45:39
questions that you sent me. You can send me one question.
45:43
You can send me 100 questions, but I answer 3 at a time.
45:47
That's the way it goes. Just send them to three
45:48
questions at gavinfishcom. 3 questions at gavinfishcom and I
45:53
will endeavor my best. In fact, I solemnly promise that
45:58
when I answer these questions, I will do so truthfully and I will
46:01
not dodge questions. You can answer hard ones, or you
46:04
can ask hard ones. You can ask easy ones and I've
46:07
been getting slew of easy ones lately.
46:09
I got to say, OK, let's go into question number one.
46:12
Do your older kids watch you on YouTube and do they give you any
46:16
feedback on it? The answer to that question is
46:20
no. None of my children are into
46:22
true crime. They like that.
46:25
I have a YouTube channel. I think they, they encourage me
46:29
as far as like keep working hard, keep going at it.
46:32
They talk to me about some creators and the different
46:36
genres and niches that they like, some things those creators
46:40
do and give me ideas on how I might be able to to I guess,
46:47
tweak them for true crime. But do they watch me?
46:50
No, they don't. And actually it feels pretty
46:52
good that they don't. It's just, I don't think,
46:56
Kimberly, if you're watching right now, I don't think that
46:58
this is 1 where I can do what you want me to do.
47:00
But let's keep going, OK? Question #2 what is your
47:04
favorite Christmas song? This one came a little late.
47:09
I'm answering it a day late. What is my favorite Christmas
47:11
song? I think I'm kind of a sucker for
47:17
a little drummer boy. Honestly.
47:20
I like that song. I think it's cute and I've got
47:22
good memories of of like doing an arrangement on the ukulele
47:28
with the kiddos and singing it for, you know, grandpa and
47:32
grandma and stuff like that. So what, you know, in the
47:35
comments, tell me your favorite Christmas song.
47:38
Any of you like little drummer boy aficionados like me?
47:41
That's that's probably my favorite.
47:43
Oh no, it's not my favorite. Guys, listen, my parents had and
47:51
you got to tell me if you've had, if you, if you had this
47:53
album, you got to tell me in the comments.
47:56
OK. But my parents had a double
48:00
album. It was on vinyl and it was the
48:03
Osmond Family Christmas. And on that album there is a
48:09
song called Sleigh Ride that I don't think I've heard anybody
48:13
else. Do we all go riding?
48:16
Let's see, I don't remember how it goes now.
48:20
All I can think of is pink Cadillac.
48:23
Hold on. Sleigh ride, Woo.
48:26
Going on a sleigh ride up on the hillside.
48:29
Sleigh ride, Woo. Will we take it slow?
48:33
You know the answer is no. We're going to go just as fast
48:36
as we can. That was my favorite growing up.
48:39
I loved it. Whoa, excuse me?
48:45
So tell me if you had that album and tell me what your favorite
48:48
Christmas song is. All right, last question of the
48:51
night, do you watch or listen to any creators outside of true
48:56
crime? Hey, if the person who asked
49:00
this probably is pretty new to the channel.
49:02
I've been, I've been at this for almost 5 years I think.
49:06
But I am not a classic true crime lover.
49:10
I was brought into it by my friend Rick.
49:15
And I watch other channels. I watch Grizzly and I watch
49:20
Plunder. I watch, you know, Courtroom
49:24
Confidential. I watch Surviving the Survivor.
49:28
And then of course, Cherylin Dale.
49:31
I love Cherylin, she's my pal Stephanie Harlow, stuff like
49:36
that. But it's usually because I am
49:41
researching a case or I want to hear what other people are
49:45
saying about a case that I'm covering.
49:47
I don't typically watch true crime because I can't get enough
49:52
true crime. I'm sorry if that if that is
49:56
disappointing to hear what I like to watch.
50:00
I love makers. I like Colin Furs, I like Xyla
50:08
Foxlin. I like Ali Spagnola.
50:13
I, I like, you know, I like to make stuff that there's, there's
50:20
a whole that is one genre that I really like and tell me the ones
50:24
that you like. Because we, we can't all just be
50:27
listening to true crime all the time, can we?
50:29
There's got to be other stuff too, and that.
50:30
So I like makers. I also really like homesteaders,
50:36
like I, I don't know, I could never do it, but I really love
50:40
that they do it. My favorite homesteading channel
50:45
is Red Poppy Ranch. I love, I love Red Poppy Ranch.
50:50
It's I look forward to it all the time.
50:53
And then they're like, I love life uncontained.
50:58
I love that one. And then what is the one there
51:01
in West Virginia and they're working on their house right
51:06
now. Hold on a second.
51:08
Oh, wild, wonderful off grid. So those are the two genres that
51:13
I watch. I also like tool restorations
51:18
and and restorations of like cars and stuff.
51:22
So that's what I usually watch and I watch way too much
51:26
YouTube. I love it.
51:29
So let me go over to your comments to see what you guys
51:33
are saying. Let's bring it.
51:36
And that's those are my answers to the three questions.
51:39
Let's see if you guys are saying anything.
51:46
Do they know it's Christmas after all is a favorite
51:49
Christmas song. Little Paddy likes Little
51:52
Drummer Boy by Pentatonix. Yeah, Sally says you did have
51:57
the the album. Nice, Garth B Nutt says love The
52:03
Osmonds. Yeah, that was a good one.
52:07
Just Ducky says I remember an album cover for Bing Crosby.
52:11
Christmas. Yes, that is good.
52:15
Mooney loves Little Drummer Boy. Little Drummer Boy is pretty
52:18
awesome. It's it's pretty great.
52:19
I love it. Alexandra says last Christmas, I
52:23
you don't like it when people give your heart away, right?
52:27
You're going to give it to someone special.
52:29
That's good. Sally also says I watch
52:32
Homesteaders and nomadic Crowd, how they make all that hard
52:36
1800s living look fun and easy. Yeah, yeah.
52:40
And Holly Jolly Christmas is a good one.
52:44
And Beth says I'm addicted to booktube.
52:47
I'm a huge reader. Hey I am on a mission in 2026 to
52:51
read 6 novels and I know that doesn't sound like much but I
52:58
read tons of nonfiction. I don't read fiction almost
53:03
ever. The last fiction piece that I
53:06
read was like 2 years ago and it was Don Quixote.
53:10
Now I'm starting off with A tale of two cities.
53:14
I feel like I don't have enough Dickens in my life so I'm I'm
53:17
going to do some Dickens. So booktube.
53:20
Got it. Got to check booktube.
53:22
Wonder Kell says tiny houses that yeah, that's a cool little
53:29
niche. And then analytical one says I
53:32
like dumpster diving channels. Isn't it cool how we all have
53:37
these different interests? I don't know.
53:39
YouTube is a wonderful place that makes wonderful content.
53:43
I really love the end of the year because in the maker world
53:48
they do a gift exchange and I think it's hilarious.
53:51
I think it's awesome. So ha, yeah, those are the three
53:58
questions I got to do my outro. All right, guys, thank you very
54:10
much for the support this year. I know that I said in the last
54:13
video, but boy do I love you guys and what it means to me to
54:18
be able to do this for part of my living.
54:21
So I don't do it full time, I do it part time, but it has made a
54:25
huge difference in my life. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
54:28
If you go over to my website, gavinfish.com, I, I just like to
54:34
plug it. There are true crime articles,
54:36
their blog posts. If you're curious about
54:38
different ways to support me and my channel, you can, you can go
54:43
to this page. Very grateful to those of you
54:46
who sent things this year. Grateful to those who took care
54:50
of Autumn by buying her a coffee and thank you so much for
54:54
subscribing to the newsletter, for the memberships, for the
54:57
Patreon, for the tips. You guys have been awesome.
55:01
Also, while you're in my website, if you click on this
55:04
little fishy up in the upper right hand corner that will take
55:07
you to the fish tank where we hang out on Facebook there about
55:10
5800 of us it's and you're always welcome.
55:13
You're cordially invited to join us on or in the tank in the fish
55:19
tank. If you're on Facebook and that's
55:21
your thing, no pressure, No pressure, you're just always
55:24
invited. Wanted to just bring up the
55:28
calendar one more time. So today is Friday and it's
55:32
Kwanzaa. Happy Kwanzaa to those who are
55:34
celebrating it. We will be off tomorrow and
55:37
Sunday and then back on Monday the 29th, Tuesday the 30th, and
55:43
then I'm taking New Year's Eve and New Year's Day off and that
55:47
will be our schedule for next week.
55:51
I hope that you guys have a terrific weekend.
55:54
If I don't see in the tank, I hope to see you back here on
55:58
Monday, 6:00 PM Eastern Time right at this very channel to
56:02
continue our next true crime conversation.
56:06
And until then, I bid you, I do and I will see you then take
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