Latest / Bent Not Broken: Starting Over After Divorce | Post Divorce Life / Feeling Lost in Your Marriage? How to Reconnect, Heal & Rebuild Before It’s Too Late | Lee H. Baucom, PH.D.

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Feeling Lost in Your Marriage? How to Reconnect, Heal & Rebuild Before It’s Too Late | Lee H. Baucom, PH.D. · Bent Not Broken: Starting Over After Divorce | Post Divorce Life

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Bent Not Broken.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Heartbreak and trauma may feel like the end of your story, but here it's the beginning of a bold new chapter.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Coach Deborah Griffiths, and this is the space where women rise, rebuild, and rediscover their purpose.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Remember this truth.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: You are bent, not broken.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: What if your marriage isn't broken?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just been put on pause.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that pause is slowly destroying it.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're talking about the silent damage happening in relationships and what you can do even if your partner has already checked out.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Coach Deborah and this is Bent, Not Broken.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, you'll learn why marriages quietly disconnect, the three dimensions of connection most couples miss, and what you can do starting today, even if you're the only one trying.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest, Lee Bakum, has spent over two decades helping people save their marriages, even when their partner has already given up.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: As the creator of Save the Marriage System and host of Save the Marriage podcast, Lee shows that real change doesn't always take two people.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it starts with one.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Lee, to Bent Not Broken.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to be here.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get started.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: What is Save the Marriage System and why did you create it?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: So the Save the Marriage System is designed for people who are trying to save their marriage.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't mean that they're 100% successful, but it does mean that they have a roadmap, which I think a lot of people are lacking both in how to be married and how to work on a hurting marriage, to have a roadmap that they can follow and see what can happen.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was trained as a therapist and I stumbled upon this new thing of coaching.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I turned to my wife reading this article, and I said, This is kind of how I do what I do in clinical office, and it's called coaching.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so she said, What are you going to do about that?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: As I am literally at the end of our tiny little room there in our tiny little house, writing my dissertation.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm finishing it and I'm telling her, I'm announcing that there's this shift.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I said, I guess I might do some training in that.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I did three years of training as a coach also, and just became more clear that that was my approach.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started looking for what does help marriages succeed.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what started the Save the Marriage System.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: At the point, it was just an ebook, but it expanded because it began to be kind of popular.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: It expanded into a fuller system.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So back in 1999, there was no Amazon talking about ebooks.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so we had to spend a lot of time explaining what that meant to people.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: But now it's expanded into a multi-step, multi-piece process.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I was interested, probably looking back on why marriages, why troubled marriages, is because I watched the destruction in my extended family.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Many couples don't even realize that they're drifting apart.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: What are the early signs of disconnection people should be paying attention to?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about how they get there, and then we can talk about what that looks like.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I have the belief that the major cause of marital problems is what I call the pause button marriage.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what I saw coming into my office of people saying we need to work on this, whether it's conflict or whether it's disconnections around the topics like parenting or money or religion or sex or in-laws, those things, those are all symptoms.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Communication, when they would come in and say, we need help with our communication, that's a symptom of the problem.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: So let's backtrack.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: They found each other along the way.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: They fall in love.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: They say, Hey, you know what?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Let's make this for life.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, once they're married, they're like, okay, we've got this relationship.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we've nailed this down.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now we need to do some other things like parenting, like careers, like friends and hobbies and sports and whatever else it is that seems like it's calling for attention now that they figure out that their relationship is nailed down.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is you don't nail down a relationship.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So what they do subconsciously and sometimes even little consciously is they hit the pause button and say, we'll get back to us after we accomplish these things.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: After, and it's always something in the future.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's after, so you have the kids come along, and then it's after they're out of diapers, and then it's after they're in school, and then it's after they're in high school, and then it's after they're in college, and on and on it goes.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: When at my career is at this point, then I'll have some breathing room, and then we can kind of get back to us.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, really, when it's at this point, and the reason it's always a little bit into the future is because all of the connection that they had created coming into the relationship, all that they had built in that stage of life, now they're creating habits of disconnection.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And for a while you don't see it.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So now we're getting to your question about how do you know?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is by the time it's gone on a while, because you have momentum of the connection going on, and you feel like you're in it together with the parenting and with all these decisions you're making on how to spend this energy, but you're not connecting with each other.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a couple of early warning signs.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: One is when I see couples, and this is probably one of the earliest warning signs, when I see pup couples go from rapporting with each other, where they're building rapport back and forth, to reporting to each other.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're just, how was your day?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: becomes, well, I had a meeting and I had to turn it in the report.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's a report.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how your day went.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: That was just a recitation of what happened.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And same with talking about what happened with the kids.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how are the kids?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, they had this and they had this and they had this.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's no underlying what's that about?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: How did that feel?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: What was going on?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: So early on, the rapporting is actually turned into reporting.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a very early indicator, probably the earliest indicator, because at that point, nothing, no damage is being done.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that you're no longer building the connection.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so after you've done that a while, you start to accumulate the disconnection.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And as that disconnection starts growing, that's when we see the conflicts around those five big areas that have always been the hallmarks for what people talk about in therapy are kids, religion, in-laws, and now religion and politics.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's expanded a bit to include that.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: In-laws, sex, and money is, and in fact, money is the number one.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's usually the one I name off first.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: So money is usually the number one because it's such a day-to-day issue.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So they come in talking about those in conflict ways.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And those are just places where they're no longer able to relate to each other.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the next kind of thing you see is when they're having these disagreements.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: If they continue the disagreements, you start seeing disrespect play out between them.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then they start to disregard each other where they're making decisions without the other person in their process, without their spouse in their process.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you let that go far enough, you'll hit disdain.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of the last point.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if a couple has gotten to that last point of disdain, is there any hope for them to turn that around?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or is that really an uphill battle, I would imagine?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so if we use that arc metaphor, it's uphill.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's just how far down and how far up you'd have to go.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Disdain gets to be particularly difficult because if somebody is showing me disdain, I'm likely to respond with disdain.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: When somebody shows me anger, which is what's behind that, I often will reciprocate with anger.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just our human nature.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're trying to get two people to unplug their anger, their disdain, and turn back towards each other.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And every step down, it's a little harder to turn towards each other because the hurt is there and so are the angry actions.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: So is it possible?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I have seen people do that.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is it rare?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's more rare than any other place on there.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: It reminds me when I start feeling hurt and you lose that trust in that other person.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and the trust is such a broad topic too, because you can trust somebody in lots of different ways.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where do you mistrust them, right?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times we lump that in as trust, but I think that there are subcategories.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've had people who come in and like, my spouse cheated on me, I can never trust them again.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I would start to ask, and do you trust them to take care of the kids?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, do that.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you trust them to maybe spend the money appropriately and take care of that?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there is some place of trust.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that this particular area is ruptured of trust.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So just to kind of point to that, but let's back up a little bit because the anger hurt thing is so instrumental in this.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Anger is a secondary emotion.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's the outward sign of what we are experiencing on the inside, which is hurt, fear, or threat.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the problem is anger is designed to push away.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: It creates distance by its nature.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: We were well served with that.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: If we were worried about somebody on the savannah hunting after us to react to that threat with anger means that we're ready to defend ourselves.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not so helpful in an intimate relationship because let's call anger a repelling emotion.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And hurt, fear, and threat are a compelling, a vulnerability feeling, right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: If I say I'm really hurt by that, you're likely to go, oh, let's talk about that, or what can I do about that?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm like, I'm really angry with you, you're going to respond with, well, now I'm going to defend myself.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And out comes the anger versus anger.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it flares so quickly, especially when couples are disconnected.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: When couples are very connected, it's much easier for them to say that really hurt my feelings, or that makes me feel a little fearful, or I feel threatened by that.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: When they are less so, they're less capable.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: When they are not connected, that becomes almost an impossibility.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so all that's coming back and forth is the anger.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: There are two things that come out of that that are useful.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: One is when I'm angry, I can ask the question, what's the fear in me?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: What's the threat in me?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: What's the hurt in me?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I can identify that.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that helps me pull back a little bit from that and then start acting from the hurt, fear, the threat.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because that can be something of a vulnerability and a sharing.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: If my spouse is angry, I might be well served to go, huh?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder what they are fearful about, hurt about, threatened about.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: How can I deal with that and see it differently?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because one of the things I observed in my office over the years is I would have two people who both believe that they were talking about their hurt, their fear, their threat.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: But all I'm watching is two angry people charging at each other.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so they both feel like they are trying to share that.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: But what's outwardly coming is the anger.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we often find ourselves in this anger trap without recognizing what's actually behind it.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's very interesting.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: How do you work with somebody that is just all it is is anger, anger, anger back and forth.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And yet underneath all of that is the fear and the hurt.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it's kind of like dealing with a porcupine.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta find the right way to soothe it down instead of pushing up against it, right?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so with a couple on my sofa, I would be asking, tell me what's going on here.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, I'm trying to tell about my hurt, my whatever.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I could say, as an objective observer, it feels really angry.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that gives them a chance to switch gears to the vulnerability.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm also modeling that I know from my side that what's behind that is hurt, fear, and threat.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it may feel like anger, but what's behind that is this.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you're doing some translation.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the translation is how can you translate the yelling into the vulnerability, right?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so the difficult thing is we don't get a lot of practice doing that in daily life.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Very true.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So when it's there, it's even higher stakes.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So what I started doing when I kind of realized this about emotions is I started working with myself to notice when I saw somebody being angry, to just ask the question, I wonder what's threatening them.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder what's hurting them, what's what's the fear?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that I started creating a neuronal pathway that said, if I see anger, I'm gonna look for that behind it.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if I could do that, for instance, in my office or just on the street.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, driving down the road these days, you have plenty of opportunities of going, I wonder what that's about.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so, for instance, I I remember this person who just cut me off in traffic and was just belligerent about cutting me off.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And my first thing was, how dare they?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna charge up on them and show them.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I went, wait, wait, what's going on with them?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder what might have caused them, because it's not that that's not about me, right?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I could take myself out of that and go, that's not about me.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: With a spouse, you can't as easily take yourself out of that.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I was practicing it at places where I could take myself out and go, that has nothing to do with me.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: But what I came to realize is whenever somebody is angry, even if my spouse is angry with me, it may have something to do with me, but it's not all about me.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's something going on within them too.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a way that we might have a conversation about what's going on.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: You teach the three dimensions of connection.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: What are they, and where do most people miss that mark?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of times when I start this, people think I'm saying you do this one first, and then you do this one second, you do this one third.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I want you to think of it as just three ways of connecting, three dimensions, three pillars, three ways of doing it.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So start at the most basic.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the one we share with pretty much any warm-blooded creature, and that is physical connection.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: So right now, Clementine, our dog is sleeping beside me.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: But when I go downstairs today and when I sit on the couch, where is she going to be?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right up against me because she understands physical connection.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: That means that it's safe and it is back and forth.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm safe, you're safe.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: That physical connection is loving touch.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: When I first started talking about this, I would say touch.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then people would say, Oh, so you think somebody being abusive is physical connection.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, loving touch is right.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: So loving touch.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when I say that, sometimes people will say, Oh, you mean sex?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And my answer is no, but yes.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: That is a version of physical connection.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: But there are so many others.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Any loving touch, a hug, a kiss, handhold, pats, all of that.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that is often where people kind of form their connection.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And let me say first that these three areas we're talking about can be true in any relationship.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the depth of it is different.
• 16:34
  unknown: Okay.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: By love language, I'm a touch.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I meet a friend, I give them a hug.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's physical connection.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hugging you, that's love.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So physical touch is that first one.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: The second is emotional connection.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so physical touch is nonverbal.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can talk all I want to about a hug, but it doesn't do anything until I hug.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's nonverbal.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Emotional connection is both verbal and nonverbal.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So as we're talking, you're nodding along when you're in agreement with me.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's a non-verbal signal that we're on the same page, right?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So another example, when my kids were younger, they might do something, and my wife and I would kind of give each other that knowing look like you would go, okay, we get each other, like we're on the same page about this.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's that's a nonverbal way of saying we're we're in this together, right?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So emotional connection is we get each other, like I understand what makes you tick and what makes you ticked off.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And also I understand and support you, right?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: So those are it's the support and get that kind of make up that.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: We do that through the nonverbal of, yeah, we're on the same page, look at each other with those eyes and all that.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: But we also do it through the verbal of sharing what's going on, of being able to support each other, of my wife laughing when I make a joke, and I guess she gets me.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: She gets that place of humor, right?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: So all of those are ways we emotionally connect.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And when you are meeting somebody and getting to know them, there's an emotional connection that goes on as you're talking about things that are going on in your life and what they mean to you, which leads to that third level, and that is spiritual connection.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So spiritual connection is verbal.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: It is also when I say it, people say, Oh, you mean religion?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And my response is no, but yes, that tells you something about your deepest values.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: If I tell somebody what I believe, I'm telling them something of my deep values that I probably don't just walk around and tell the world, but there's a lot more to it.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: When I talk about what are my fears, my hopes, my dreams, all of those pieces that I may share a little bit with somebody, but I'm sharing more of that with my spouse.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things I did when I was still in the office was see people who were getting married.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had lots of stories coming through my office of how they met, how they fell in love, and all of that.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Almost every one of them would tell me a story about a conversation they had where they fell in love.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: So they say, Yeah, I was attracted to this person, and we had gotten to know each other, and I really liked who they were.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had this conversation, and they'll tell me about it.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same one I had with my girlfriend, where we talked about our families we grew up in, went on in our families and what that meant to us and where we want to go in life and what we dream about and what scares us.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when they fell in love.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's the spiritual connection.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: So many people would say, Oh, yeah, I understand the physical and emotional.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: But that third one they don't realize until they look back and go, Oh, yeah, we did have those conversations.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then we stopped having them.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is an early one that often falls away because people don't identify how important that is.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then you watch the other start to disappear.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: So they end up reporting to each other instead of building that rapport with emotional connection, and then they start moving the physical energy elsewhere, like hugging on the kids, loving on the kids, or just saying, I just don't have time, I don't have energy.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how those three areas end up disconnected and stuck in that pause button.
• 20:14
  unknown: Okay.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is it really possible for one person to save the marriage if the other one has emotionally checked out?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna reframe a little bit and ask the question is it possible for one person to start?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer is yes, because one person is always the instigator of any change in life, whether it's your own, like I if I want to do something in my life, I'm gonna have to change something for myself.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: In a relationship, a lot of people will say, Oh, it takes two to tango.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And my response is you're already tangoing, you're already in a dance.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: The question is, do you like how the dance is going?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do you like the steps that you're dancing?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if not, you can change your steps in this process.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, if you watch how they often tango together and get tangled up in the arguments, one option is to go, I'm not gonna keep doing that.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be more clean about my communication, I'm not gonna react to their anger, I'm not gonna fall back into the patterns we always fall into.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do that, you disrupt the system.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that dance is a system.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: A marriage is a system.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if one part of a system changes, it affects the entire system.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: So one person can start the process.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I said they can start it.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Can they finish it?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, could I save my marriage by myself?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, at some point my spouse will have to join in.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's not likely that both people arrive at the conclusion of we need to work on this at the same time, though.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that is just doesn't happen very often.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if it does, it's a simple fix.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I've often Said that a bad therapist with two people who want to rebuild it can't get in the way.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: They will succeed at getting back together.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: But a great therapist where one person is absolutely refusing is not going to make much motion.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: That person, though, can begin the process and see if they can begin to rebuild the connection.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times, one of the reasons that therapy is so ineffective is because it's often one person feeling like they are pulled in and they spend a lot of time proving that nothing can happen.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: They end up being more hardened to the possibility.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the reasons that it becomes disruptive.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: There are a couple of others, but that's one of the big ones.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if one person says, I'm going to change how I manage myself, how I begin to relate to my spouse.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I have three C's that I explain to people of connecting, changing, and creating.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Connecting with my spouse because what happened when I hit the pause button?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: We disconnected.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Changing, I'm not saying I think there's something wrong with the person I'm talking to, as much as I know one fact about most adults.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: They stopped growing at some point.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: They locked in what they like in life, how they think in life, how they process the world, all of those things get locked in at some point.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's the end times fallacy that the neurobiologists talk about, where everybody thinks they've already arrived.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like all the hard work is behind them when they get to adulthood.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in reality, we're constantly growing creatures, or we stagnate.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so that stagnation is what I'm pushing towards on the change.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: How do you want to show up differently?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Who do you want to be?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you need to expand your life?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's the change.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: The create is creating a new path for your relationship.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I also have a core belief that the reason a marriage works is because the two people form a we.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like we are in this together.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're a team.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't mean they lose their individuality, a true team, a sports team.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: You want to play your best, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it doesn't mean that every day you're at the top of your performance, but you want to perform your best.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's the changing yourself to show up the best.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: But you're playing as a team, like we're in this together, let's take it on together.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And those three pieces one person can manage until there's enough connection for the other person to go, you know, I really actually do treasure this, and I want to step back into the process.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if someone wants to start rebuilding their connection, how can they do that without pushing their partner further away?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Which is a great framing of it because that's exactly what often happens.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I call it the chaser-spacer dynamic.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So let's go back to Miss Clementine beside me.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: She goes out in our backyard and I want her to come in.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: She's not so keen on it.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I have a couple of options.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: One is I can go try to get her, right?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I can go after her.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: She's going to think that is a lovely game where we play chase.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the faster I chase after her, the faster she's going to spin around the yard, right?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: She's going to make sure that she stays out of my reach.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: So let's translate that game over to a dynamic in a relationship that if you try to get close to somebody, closer than they're willing to be at that moment, and you do it too fast, they are going to create space.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you're chasing, they're spacing.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to work on being a pacer.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's the chaser, the spacer, and then you can choose to be a pacer.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So how do I do that with Clementine?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if I can't get her to come in, a little treat.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I invite her to come towards me.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: And even then, I can't suddenly just grab her, right?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: I have to lure her into being closer to me, and then we can go in the house together.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's the same with this.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: How can you do it invitationally?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about the three levels of connection.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the three levels of disconnection, also.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: We disconnect on those areas, but they also provide targets.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: We now have three different arenas there where we can work on building the connection invitationally.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's an invitation to get her to come to me.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And she can refuse the invitation.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she can refuse the treat.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's certainly possible.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Clementine doesn't, but you may have to deal with the spouse who's not quite ready to take you up on that invitation, and you keep making the invitation.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: So when I talk with people, they often say, So tell me exactly what to do, but I don't know where they are in those three levels of connection.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'll just give a good rule of thumb: a little bit more than where you are right now.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Not a lot more, a little bit more.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: So a little bit more physical connection, emotional connection, and spiritual connection in a way that is not forced, that is not trying to get, but is an invitation.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I often see people do is they're like, we don't have this connection.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to start date night.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to get dressed up on Friday night, and we're going to get a babysitter, and we're going to make reservations at a nice restaurant, and it'll just be us.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's not enough connection between them for that to work.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so the next week, mysteriously, there's no babysitter available, so they'll have to cancel.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the week after that, they're just too worn out to get dressed up.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then the week after that, it's too expensive to go to the nice restaurant.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And pretty soon you have no date night.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is not because that wouldn't have been lovely.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's because it's too much connection for what they already have.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: So now let's change that.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: So date night is we're going to do something nice, we're going to plan it.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: We got to make all of these reservations and deals and all of that.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of logistics.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: That can be overwhelming.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: So what if I were to say to my spouse, hey, I just heard about this new restaurant up the road.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: They say it has great sandwiches.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking of getting one for lunch.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Would you like to go with me?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: So now I have focused on this new place that I want to try out, first of all.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Not you are going to be a date with me.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: So first I'm going to try it out.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: The second is I'm going to do this.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can come along if you want.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's up to you.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the third thing is, even if they turn it down, I have still created some attachment in there, some connection in that.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if I say, hey, would you like to go get a cup of coffee?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, man, I've got to finish up this podcast.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Even though you would turn me down, you might say, that was really nice of him to ask.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: There is a piece of warmth that's already embedded in that, right?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So what I suggest is people do these small invitational things to restore the connection.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, then there is the danger of how do you do that?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've often had people who were successful, and the spouse says, Yeah, I'll go get a sandwich or go to the bookstore or go get coffee or ice cream or walk or whatever it is.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then they try to turn it into this big, I got that.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So now I'm going to go for this.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, You got that.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Make it pleasant.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Stay with that.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Make it pleasant.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: So make your interaction there pleasant.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Talk, talk about fun stuff.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Ask them how their whatever is going, their hobby, their interest.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just be light about it because all you're doing is making a deposit into the connection bank so that you can make another one along the way.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to suddenly withdraw it.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just put in a deposit.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm going to spend it somewhere else and then wonder what happened to it.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we're building little connections along the way in those three arenas.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the pacing method that you were talking about.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's really like taking just baby steps for the reconnection.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because that disconnection didn't happen overnight.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the reconnection is not going to happen overnight.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: When people try to do the big stuff, it it often comes from their fear.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like they've got to do something big to turn it around.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And grand gestures are rarely as important as the smaller daily gestures.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Grand gestures just don't pay off.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is doing the small things consistently over time and building up.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I've had people who are like, well, I mean, what do you want me to do physically?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because we don't hug, we don't kiss, we don't do anything.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Pat them on the way by, just rub their head, something small.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because here's the thing, and this is why this often works.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: We need connection.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, well, let me just say we are desperate for connection.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Humans are.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's just in our makeup.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: One way of connecting.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can't tell her about my day and her care at all.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can't tell her about my core values and her care at all.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: She wants a scratch.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: She wants to be up against me.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's all.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Humans have these three levels, which is why it takes us a minimum of 18 years to get a child launched, because they are growing up in connection and learning from connection in ways that no other creature that we know of does.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we need connection.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when we don't have that, our brain registers that as a threat and as pain.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so when there are bites of connection, we want more bites.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so that allows us to build slowly.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so you don't want to announce, hey, I'm going to connect with you and you're going to like it because now you put them on alert.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: But if you offer those connections, over time you're building into that connection bank.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: You're adding to it until you get to the point where there is enough of a balance that they go, hey, you know what?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: I want to connect with you too.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the other problem points is people keep trying to get signs from a spouse, reassurance from a spouse that's not quite there yet.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to be willing to be invitational, not desperate, not pulling from them and continuing to offer it until they're ready to step back in.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what that also means though is sometimes it feels one-sided.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was just thinking about that because I've always likened relationships like to a grandfather clock in that pendulum.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Ideally, it should swing back and forth.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Nice and easy.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not life.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what happens.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's 60-40 or 30-70.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or it's kind of bad when it gets to the 90-10.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I can see where someone is really committed and they're trying.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And even if they're pacing themselves, how do they begin to think that they're not doing all the work, that it's all not one-sided?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well, let's be clear.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: In the beginning, it may be all the work all one-sided.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is if you have an expectation that may not be true, you're going to risk disappointment.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: The question is whether that is true ongoing or whether that's a starting point.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so momentum is an issue here.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So back when I had cheap, horrible cars that broke down on a regular basis.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I pushed a lot of cars.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, do the push-start and all kinds of things.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: And here's what I realized when I was doing that.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Getting the car moving was the hardest part.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Once it's rolling, it has its own momentum.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you're trying to create some momentum.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so that can feel one-sided because it is one-sided.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason you may decide that is not because you're getting what you want back, but because you believe in something bigger than that.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm talking with somebody, I often ask, why are you going to try to save your marriage?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Give me your reasons.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And generally they'll start with a couple.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Almost always, those are fear-based.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I will have somebody write down a list of 10 things.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so if somebody's listening and going, I'm not sure if I want to do that, write down the 10 reasons you would save your marriage.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, if you can't come up with any reasons whatsoever, you're in a very different place because there's nothing there to fuel this.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: But if you start coming up with them, the first few are going to be fear-based.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to lose half the house value.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to lose half my retirement or more.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to lose time kids.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Don't want to be alone.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to get back in that dating world again.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of I don't want.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then people start getting somewhere around six, seven, eight, they start going, I really want to honor the commitment I made.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to create that pattern of divorce that I've already seen.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: I want to have my kids see what it means to work through this.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's still love here, and I would like to rebuild that.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Those are value-based, deeper ones.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the deeper whys.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if you know your reason why that is not fear-based, and the reason the fear-based doesn't work is because we humans get used to fear.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: It fades over time.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you're exposed to the same thing long enough, you it doesn't push you anymore.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, yeah, yeah, okay.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'll lose half the house.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that's it, just you get used to it.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: But the reasons why don't go away.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, as people start working on them, they find the the more clearly defined edge of that, like why that's really important to them.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you may go, yes, I am not getting a lot back right now.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: We both created this circumstance, and I'm going to take responsibility to step into this and response ability.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I have an ability to choose my response, is what I mean by that.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Not the fault, but the response ability.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: The responsibility to work on this from my side.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to step into this, knowing that I may not get something back, and knowing that at some point I may say, I'm no longer willing to do this.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I won't have regret at that point for not having taken action.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: The tough thing about regret is you can't go back and redo it.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Once it's there, you can try to not notice it and not focus on it.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the thing.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: So let's kind of put it back to the save the marriage system.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: What am I hoping for for people?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: To restore their relationship, to have one that's loving and both people want to protect and hold on to.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's here.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: What I want to create at a minimum, the capacity for people to go, I did everything I could or was willing to do to save that marriage, and I can walk away with no regret.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds good.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: How can our listeners learn more about you, connect with you, listen to your podcast, books, website, all that good stuff?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'll put it in the show notes.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so let's consider where they might be in the journey.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say you're in a boat and you're hidden down the river and you are aware that you're hearing the waterfall at the end.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: You thought you were merrily floating along, but now you hear the waterfall down there and you don't want to go over the waterfall.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a couple of options.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: One is you may be upstream enough that you go, yeah, we are chronically paused, but we're not in a crisis.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: I actually created the unpause app for that, for people to use an app on their phone that gives them training and exercises and daily reminders to step back into that to unpause their relationship, to start creating the habits of connection.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's at unpauseyourmarriage.com.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Unpause your marriage, because that's what we're doing.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Unpauseyourmarriage.com.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's if you are upstream a bit and you hear the waterfall and you're like, I need to unpause this, unpause your marriage.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you might find yourself further downstream, a little too close to that edge, and you're not ready for divorce yet.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to go over.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that is the save the marriage system, and that's at save the marriage.com.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: So save the marriage.com has links at the bottom to the podcast.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's information there about my books, and there's also the save the marriage system.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's if you're hearing in the distance, but you hear it very close by that the waterfall is crashing, and how do you you get out of the water before everything flips over?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Lee, this has been a fantastic discussion.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time and being on Bent Not Broken.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to today's episode of Bent Not Broken.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that this episode reminded you that even through life's toughest moments, you are bent.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Not broken.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: If this message inspired you, please share, rate, review, and subscribe as it helps us reach more women who are ready to rise and rebuild.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And until next time, keep living bold and walking in your purpose.