Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / 36 Doctors Missed It: Amy Kurtz on Lyme Disease, Medical Trauma Brain & Healing After Chronic Illness
Transcript
- [00:00:00] Amy Kurtz: It's so detrimental to say that the physical body is separate from the [00:00:05] mental- Thank you ... emotional, spiritual self. They are one. And in this country, we [00:00:10] look at them as separate, and they're not. They, there's literally no way to [00:00:15] separate them. So you're calling it medical trauma brain. Or MTB. I interviewed many, [00:00:20] many physicians. [00:00:20] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. The people that I'm closest to as well. Mm-hmm. And I said, "Have you seen [00:00:25] this where the patient is better, but they're not better? Or it's like they're better, but they're [00:00:30] still acting as if they're sick?" And when I would say it, there was a real recognition [00:00:35] of, "Oh, yeah, I see... I do. I see that all the time." [00:00:37] Amy Kurtz: And then I'd say, "What's the name of it?" And [00:00:40] nobody knew. So I created it. Amy [00:00:43] Dr. Taz: Kurtz is a [00:00:45] certified health coach, a patient advocate, a speaker, and an author dedicated [00:00:50] to empowering patients to reclaim agency over their physical, mental, and emotional [00:00:55] [00:00:55] Amy Kurtz: wellbeing. I was physically better, but my mind was still on the survival hamster wheel, [00:01:00] and it hadn't gotten the memo. [00:01:01] Amy Kurtz: And so for me it was like an illness after an illness. It applies to [00:01:05] cancer patients- Yeah ... to patients who have had acute illnesses like strokes. You are in [00:01:10] survival. Mm. And unless you work to get out of survival, you will always be [00:01:15] stuck in what I call the shadow lands. It was like I was out to dinner with my friends. [00:01:19] Amy Kurtz: I was having a [00:01:20] good time, and yet there was a part of me- Like there, yeah ... where my brain was, like, trapped in a [00:01:25] sandstorm desert all alone. I was so anxious. Yeah. Like, I was [00:01:30] really, really struggling because I was terrified that I was gonna get sick again. [00:01:34] Dr. Taz: [00:01:35] Amy has been featured on Good Morning America, Oprah Daily, the Boston Globe, and so [00:01:40] many other media outlets, including Wanderlust, where she was named one of their [00:01:45] 35 women under 35 to watch in wellness. [00:01:48] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming [00:01:50] Amy to the show. This episode is sponsored by HolPlus, a holistic health platform [00:01:55] built around education, personalization, and integrative care. HolPlus [00:02:00] blends holistic, integrative, and functional medicine clinics with learning [00:02:05] resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course this podcast, so you're not just treated, [00:02:10] you're informed. [00:02:11] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness [00:02:15] shop, helping you make choices that support your body at the root level. [00:02:20] HolPlus is holistic healthcare designed for real life. Visit us at [00:02:25] HolPlus.co to learn more about the platform. Again, that's [00:02:30] HolPlus.co. Okay, Amy, there's a reason I brought you on this show.[00:02:35] [00:02:35] Dr. Taz: These are the words I heard, and I think you've heard them too. You know, "You're [00:02:40] normal. Your labs are fine. You look fine. Everything's [00:02:45] okay. I think this is all in your head." I was told that back in [00:02:50] my mid-20s when I was on my own health journey, and I have met countless of patients [00:02:55] since that time, it's been over 25 years since then, who have heard the [00:03:00] same lines told to them over and over again. [00:03:03] Dr. Taz: When I was reading your [00:03:05] story and kind of of, you know, what you've been through, I, I really resonated with a lot [00:03:10] of what, you know, you've been through as well. So I think you've heard those sa- same exact [00:03:15] words uttered to you, and it motivated you not only to heal [00:03:20] yourself, right, but also to really create something that will heal others. [00:03:24] Dr. Taz: So tell us a [00:03:25] little bit about what you went through. [00:03:27] Amy Kurtz: Well, I have had a [00:03:30] long and winding journey with medical health conditions that felt like a mystery for a [00:03:35] long time. I started having pretty intense pain when I was 14, [00:03:40] went to a bunch of doctors. Nobody really could identify the root cause [00:03:45] of the condition. [00:03:46] Amy Kurtz: Was put on anti-inflammatories. Managed, [00:03:50] but my life really shifted in that moment because I went from being a young, vibrant kid [00:03:55] to being a kid in pain. And then I managed, and then at [00:04:00] 25 I went abroad and had really a health crisis- Mm ... where [00:04:05] every system in my body started to really struggle. I came home. [00:04:09] Amy Kurtz: I gained [00:04:10] 30 pounds in 30 days. I couldn't breathe. I was losing my hair. I was... It [00:04:15] was so intense and so fast, and it sent me on a quest to figure out [00:04:20] what was happening. But, but the answers weren't clear, and the situation was [00:04:25] so, um, so dire that it demanded a [00:04:30] different medical system than I was used to. [00:04:32] Amy Kurtz: Like, I come from a very Western-minded- Right ... [00:04:35] lineage of physicians. I love Western medicine, but for what I was going through, I found [00:04:40] myself looking in different directions than anything I had ever known. I went all the way to [00:04:45] Eastern medicine, found myself somewhere in the middle, found functional medicine, which [00:04:50] greatly helped me. [00:04:50] Amy Kurtz: But still, for 10 years, I was wrongly [00:04:55] diagnosed, not with things that I didn't have. Like, I do have hypothyroidism. Mm-hmm. I do [00:05:00] have celiac. But what ended up becoming was that after the press for my [00:05:05] first book, Kicking Sick, I thought, "I don't have this figured out." [00:05:10] Yeah. I feel like I'm this glowing picture of health on the cover of [00:05:15] the book, and I would go home and feel like, "I don't know how I'm gonna do this. [00:05:19] Amy Kurtz: I feel like [00:05:20] I'm crashing. I know my body. I know something's wrong." I went to my 36th [00:05:25] doctor. 36? And he looked at me very clearly. You know, I brought my [00:05:30] Harry Potter anthology of medical records. I put my hope and trust and finances [00:05:35] and all of my energy into one more doctor- Right ... because I had heard [00:05:40] wonderful things about him, and I wanted better for myself. [00:05:43] Amy Kurtz: And he did all the testing [00:05:45] again. I was hoping and praying that he would have an answer for me that actually [00:05:50] made sense and didn't make me feel like I was treading water. And he looked at me [00:05:55] very clearly and said, "I know exactly what's going on. You have late-stage neurological Lyme [00:06:00] and co-infections." Oh, wow. [00:06:01] Amy Kurtz: And it was like everything inside of my body knew it was [00:06:05] true, every part of me. It vibrated through me like- I [00:06:10] was so proud that I hadn't given up on myself. Right. But I also felt a tremendous amount of [00:06:15] grief for the invalidation or the [00:06:20] gaslighting that I'd experienced, the years that I lost from my young life. [00:06:24] Amy Kurtz: I [00:06:25] mean, 25 is the time when you're supposed to be flourishing- Right ... into who you're about to [00:06:30] become, and I was moving back home with my parents to try to figure out what was wrong. That's [00:06:34] Dr. Taz: around the age that [00:06:35] I got sick as well. Oh. And that's just such a- Such a pivotal moment ... such a pivotal [00:06:40] moment, because you're supposed to be, like, excited and, you know, finish college, finish med school, [00:06:45] finish all these different things, and instead you're starting to take steps backwards [00:06:50] in some ways, you know? [00:06:50] Dr. Taz: So- Yeah, and it fr- it [00:06:51] Amy Kurtz: just isolates you- Yeah ... so much further than the [00:06:55] experience of being sick in general- Right ... which is already so isolating. It's like you're watching [00:07:00] everybody that's your age become who- Who they're supposed to be, and- And [00:07:05] you're like, "Wait, I'm on pause" ... and you're left behind. Yeah. [00:07:06] Dr. Taz: So yeah. [00:07:07] Dr. Taz: So- So frustrating. So this is a [00:07:10] 10 to 12 year journey for you, where symptoms actually set in around 13 or [00:07:15] 14, but you don't really get your diagnosis until about 25-ish or so. Is that [00:07:20] correct? I didn't get the Lyme diagnosis until 35. Until 35. Oh [00:07:25] my gosh. Okay. So, you know, that is a long span of time. Yeah. [00:07:28] Dr. Taz: That's like a 20 year [00:07:30] span of time. Yeah. You know, in looking backwards, it's always easier to look backwards, [00:07:35] right? And, and kind of, you know, see your journey in hindsight. You know, what [00:07:40] was being, I don't wanna say dismissed, but what were you telling [00:07:45] doctors, even starting at 14? What, what was the input you were getting back?[00:07:50] [00:07:51] Amy Kurtz: Um, at 14 I, I, I [00:07:55] don't... I just remember people saying, "We don't have a clear idea of what's happening. [00:08:00] Maybe it's growing pains." It didn't feel very... It didn't feel [00:08:05] dismissive at that age. It just didn't feel clear, and I was a child. Right. So I was like, [00:08:10] "Okay, well I guess then I'll just take these anti-inflammatories," and [00:08:15] it wasn't- Did they work? [00:08:15] Dr. Taz: Did the anti-inflammatories work? A little bit. Okay. [00:08:17] Amy Kurtz: You know? But- Did [00:08:18] Dr. Taz: you have labs [00:08:20] done or any tests run at the age of 14? Everything. Okay. And I went to [00:08:22] Amy Kurtz: good doctors. I mean- Yeah ... my father's a physician. Like- Okay ... [00:08:25] I went to good specialists. Mm-hmm. And I had the privilege of doing that, and I [00:08:30] still didn't have an answer. [00:08:31] Amy Kurtz: And it's re- it's kind of ridiculous, because I grew up in [00:08:35] the Lyme belt. Yeah. But nobody was talking about Lyme in the '90s. Right. I don't know anyone- [00:08:40] I remember. Yeah ... who ever was talking about Lyme. Now I look back and it's so clear based on my [00:08:45] original symptoms that I was bitten- Mm ... that young. Mm. And I think everything else [00:08:50] just sort of snowballed. [00:08:51] Dr. Taz: So what ha- so you take these anti-inflammatories, you get through high [00:08:55] school, you go to college I'm assuming. Mm-hmm. You know, how are you managing day to day? [00:09:00] What's happening? [00:09:01] Amy Kurtz: Well, it's funny because you really adjust to your [00:09:05] baseline. Yeah. And I think I had just adjusted to being [00:09:10] uncomfortable. Like, I almost, looking back, think I thought that was normal that I was in [00:09:15] pain or that I... [00:09:16] Amy Kurtz: I just Now I'm like, "Oh my God." Yeah. That's so [00:09:20] not- Yeah ... so not normal that you felt uncomfortable all the time, [00:09:25] you know? But I just thought- Is this something like- ... this is just me ... [00:09:27] Dr. Taz: someone outside of you could see or not [00:09:30] necessarily? No. No. This is all internal. Like, you're trying to- Yeah ... trying to just make it [00:09:35] through, not talking about it, not telling people about it. [00:09:37] Dr. Taz: Yeah, no. You know, managing with [00:09:40] anti-inflammatories, I'm assuming. Mm-hmm. Wow, okay. So then when the crisis [00:09:45] component hit, what was happening there? It was- And the reason, there's a reason I'm asking you these questions. [00:09:50] I'm not trying to interrogate you here, but the reason I'm asking is because so many people [00:09:55] do exactly what you did, you know, that they have this inner [00:10:00] knowing of something's off, something's not 100% right, I don't feel great, [00:10:05] but they learn to silence it. [00:10:07] Dr. Taz: And they silence it in different ways. [00:10:10] They may take medications. They may sleep more. They may say no to things that [00:10:15] they could have said yes to. You know, it looks different on- Mm-hmm ... on everybody. But [00:10:20] that, like, silencing of your inner intelligence is something that I think really works [00:10:25] against us, and I think that we've been trained and taught to not trust that. [00:10:28] Dr. Taz: So you're moving [00:10:30] through these years, it sounds like, trying to patch it, you know, like, "Okay, [00:10:35] it's fine. Let's push it down." Yeah. You know, pretend like everything's okay. [00:10:40] What forced you... Like, I had that same moment, like, but what forced you to be like, [00:10:45] "Okay, we, we can't keep brushing this one under the rug"? [00:10:48] Amy Kurtz: Well, when I went... [00:10:50] And I fully agree with that. I, I often look back at my life now and can see that [00:10:55] when I was 14, I was just trying to fit in. Yeah, such an issue- And- ... for [00:11:00] teens, yeah ... being a 14-year-old girl is hard enough. Right. I mean, it's pretty brutal. [00:11:05] So I could see that I was just trying to- [00:11:10] adapt and be as normal as possible, but now I look back and see that that's actually detrimental [00:11:15] to- [00:11:15] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm [00:11:15] Amy Kurtz: be putting on a mask or pretending things are fine when they're not. [00:11:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:11:19] Amy Kurtz: But it wasn't [00:11:20] until I got back from my trip abroad, and I had clearly eaten something wrong, and [00:11:25] there was just a tipping point that had happened, that I said, "Okay, my body's in [00:11:30] an emergency mode now, and I'm not settling for unclear [00:11:35] answers." [00:11:35] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. So that's what made me take my health into my own hands. I had only grown up [00:11:40] around Western medicine, and I went in every other direction. [00:11:45] Wow. And I realized, okay, I'm gonna try to make myself feel better, so I [00:11:50] started learning about anti-inflammatory diets- Mm-hmm ... and mindfulness, and [00:11:55] it sent me on a journey that I actually look back and feel grateful for, [00:12:00] because I found a depth within myself and an [00:12:05] empowerment within myself that I don't think I would've necessarily found if it- Yeah [00:12:08] Amy Kurtz: hadn't have [00:12:10] happened. [00:12:10] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:12:10] Amy Kurtz: But even so, at that point, I was fighting for answers, and I [00:12:15] still didn't have clear answers for another 10 years. Wow. I had clearer answers, [00:12:20] but I really was just in survival mode, throwing [00:12:25] spaghetti at the wall to see what would stick, trying everything everyone gave me. I didn't [00:12:30] even know what was working anymore. [00:12:31] Amy Kurtz: There were some things that really helped. There were a lot that r- that really [00:12:35] didn't. [00:12:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:12:35] Amy Kurtz: And along that way, which I think is a very universal [00:12:40] feeling for many patients with these invisible illnesses, there was a lot [00:12:45] of gaslighting- Yeah ... and invalidation, and [00:12:50] making me question my trust in myself. [00:12:54] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. Which I [00:12:55] think is one of the most detrimental things that can happen to a long-term patient- Yeah [00:13:00] The experience of it within a system [00:13:05] that doesn't support the gray can really erode your trust in [00:13:10] yourself. [00:13:10] Dr. Taz: I think that's one of the fundamental flaws of, you know, there, we can talk about the [00:13:15] medical system from here to eternity, but I think one of the fundamental flaws of the medical system today [00:13:20] is that it is not designed to treat anything other than the [00:13:25] super, super, obviously sick, right? [00:13:27] Dr. Taz: It's, it, it helps the extremes, but it's [00:13:30] really not set up for the gray zone. It's not set up for the preventive zone- Yes ... you know, or the [00:13:35] optimization zone by any means. And I think that that journey, just thinking about you going from [00:13:40] 14 to 25 and not having a system that says, [00:13:45] "Okay. Hey, let's track your markers. [00:13:46] Dr. Taz: Let's see where they're going." You know? "Okay, they're moving in a [00:13:50] different direction. Yes, they could be, quote-unquote, 'normal' by the standards we've established, but they might [00:13:55] not be normal for you." Yeah. If you were tracking those, if we had a system that allowed tracking of [00:14:00] those on a consistent basis, then, you know, maybe we could catch people [00:14:05] before they have this critical point, right? [00:14:06] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Or this crash-out point, and be able to turn it [00:14:10] around, you know, and then have another, you know, have the proper mechanisms in place to turn things [00:14:15] around. So we have a twofold- Yeah ... issue of not, not tracking and trending and individualizing, but then [00:14:20] also not really having the toolbox on the other side of that. [00:14:22] Dr. Taz: Mm. You know? But okay, so you [00:14:25] have, you have the final tipping point. You're going on this journey of seeing all [00:14:30] these different people. What were they telling you? [00:14:33] Amy Kurtz: When I finally took [00:14:35] my health into my hands- Yeah ... and started to see people who had really good reputations that I had done my [00:14:40] research on, who looked at things holistically, who, who were functional [00:14:45] medicine physicians, that's where I landed. [00:14:47] Amy Kurtz: Um, they diagnosed me [00:14:50] with hypothyroidism. That was true. Okay. You know, I have celiac, that's true. [00:14:55] But I was better. I just didn't have a baseline for [00:15:00] what health really felt like- Mm ... anymore. And [00:15:05] so after I wrote my first book, like I said earlier, I- Kicking [00:15:10] Sick, right? ... I knew something was wrong. So when was that first book? [00:15:14] Dr. Taz: When was that? [00:15:15] 2017. And where were you on this journey at that point? I didn't have my Lyme diagnosis. [00:15:20] [00:15:21] Amy Kurtz: So you had your- So it's literally called Kicking Sick: Your Go-To Guide [00:15:25] for Thriving with Chronic Health Conditions, and I still stand by everything I said in [00:15:30] it. However, I was treading water, and all of the things that I put in there [00:15:35] really do help me, and they really did help me. [00:15:38] Amy Kurtz: But what was so [00:15:40] insane is that I would go home from press and feel [00:15:45] exhausted. Terrible. And I would feel like, "I don't know, I don't know how to have the energy [00:15:50] to meet this moment that I feel so lucky to have." And I wrote this book because it [00:15:55] was the book that I needed. Yeah. I couldn't find literally anything out there besides how [00:16:00] to be sick and tired. [00:16:01] Amy Kurtz: Mm. And I was never willing to subscribe to that. [00:16:04] Dr. Taz: If you're [00:16:05] listening to this and thinking, "I know something is off in my body, [00:16:10] but I don't know where to start," this is for you That's why I [00:16:15] created the Circle. The Circle is my private community where I and my team focus on [00:16:20] understanding your body from hormones and stress to metabolic health and longevity [00:16:25] with real-life guidance that you can actually use. [00:16:28] Dr. Taz: This is about clarity and [00:16:30] consistency and support beyond the exam room and maybe outside of [00:16:35] all the different appointments and experts that you've been running around to. You can try the [00:16:40] Circle with a one-month trial using the promo code podcast at [00:16:45] holplus.co/circle. Again, that's Hol Plus, [00:16:50] HolPlus.co/circle. [00:16:52] Dr. Taz: All right, let's jump back into the episode. [00:16:55] So what motivated you to write the first book, then? You must have been feeling better- [00:17:00] Yeah ... than your previous- I was ... baseline to be motivated to even write that. I was. What, what was happening when [00:17:05] you were writing that first book? [00:17:06] Amy Kurtz: Um, well, I felt so much better. [00:17:08] Amy Kurtz: You know, I started [00:17:10] eating an anti-inflammatory diet. My pain went away in my back. Ah, okay. I started to [00:17:15] help my thyroid. I felt so much better. So I was... I really thought, "Okay, this is, [00:17:20] like, what I have to deal with." And, and in the darkest moments when I had to [00:17:25] move back home with my parents, I remember just searching [00:17:30] for something to give me hope- Hmm [00:17:32] Amy Kurtz: something to give me ways to help [00:17:35] myself. Yeah. I was desperately searching for that, and all I could find w- was literally [00:17:40] the book, How to Be Sick and Tired. [00:17:41] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:17:42] Amy Kurtz: And I just was, like, [00:17:45] 30-plus-years old. I'm like, "I'm not, I'm not gonna [00:17:50] live like that. There's no way that that can be it." Yeah. It can't... That can't be [00:17:55] it. [00:17:55] Amy Kurtz: That can't be the answer- Right ... for young people with- Right ... chronic illnesses. Right. So I [00:18:00] decided I had spent so much time, money, energy, emotional, [00:18:05] um- [00:18:06] Dr. Taz: Investment ... investment- Yeah ... yeah. [00:18:08] Amy Kurtz: Thank you. Um, [00:18:10] trying to find people that could help me, from doctors to healers [00:18:15] to thought leaders to meditation teachers to everything, and [00:18:20] I just wanted other people to have a resource guide so that they didn't have to [00:18:25] waste- Hmm. [00:18:25] Amy Kurtz: I see ... time, energy, and money- Trying to find the [00:18:30] right people. So it was really a love letter from my heart to any patient that's struggling [00:18:35] with chronic health condition, and at that time, the statistic was one in [00:18:40] two, 150 million people had at least one chronic health condition. [00:18:44] Dr. Taz: [00:18:45] Mm. [00:18:45] Amy Kurtz: So now- It's even higher [00:18:46] Amy Kurtz: it's 194 million. Yeah. Yeah. So [00:18:50] that's a huge leap. That's a 25% increase between both books, [00:18:55] and I just felt like if I'm suffering this way, then so many people are suffering, [00:19:00] um, and wanna help themselves. I mean, it can't just be how to be sick and tired. That cannot be the [00:19:05] narrative anymore. No, [00:19:05] Dr. Taz: and then, uh, so 150 million in 2017 to 194 [00:19:10] million today in 2026, a decade, right, roughly between the two timestamps. [00:19:14] Dr. Taz: [00:19:15] You know, that's a really big number, and I think it's skewing younger. Do you [00:19:20] know if it's skewing to a younger demographic necessarily or not? [00:19:25] From what I see in practice, it seems to be- Yeah, I think you would know that better than me ... where I get a lot- Yeah ... [00:19:30] more young people coming in, you know, symptoms that you can't [00:19:35] explain very clearly. [00:19:36] Dr. Taz: But I guess the common symptom is, like, chronic fatigue, [00:19:40] brain fog. Mm-hmm. You know, s- kind of this cognitive fog is probably the best way to describe it, [00:19:45] and then something else. Like, it's usually that plus a few other things. Yeah. And [00:19:50] it, it seems to be skewing, you know, younger and younger. And, you know, it concerns me [00:19:55] for younger people, you know, I have a daughter who's 18, a son who's 17, you know, of what that means. [00:19:59] Dr. Taz: [00:20:00] Is it environmental? You know, where is this all coming from? And we talk about it, you know, [00:20:05] frequently. Is it, is it just the modern, you know, it's like the modern disease [00:20:10] burden? We had an infectious disease burden in the past. Now, is this the modern disease [00:20:15] burden, this, like, chronic inflammatory something, you know? [00:20:18] Dr. Taz: Hmm. But you write this book, and [00:20:20] you hope that people will be helped by it because you've invested a lot, spent a lot of [00:20:25] money on your health journey, and then you go home in 2017, and you're feeling like [00:20:30] crap. Like, what made you realize that you may not have all the answers yet? [00:20:34] Amy Kurtz: I [00:20:35] just knew it. It was an intuitive, deep voice inside [00:20:40] myself saying, "This isn't it." [00:20:42] Dr. Taz: Hmm. Because- That [00:20:43] Amy Kurtz: inner [00:20:43] Dr. Taz: intelligence [00:20:45] again. [00:20:45] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. And I trust that voice, and I always have. [00:20:50] And it may have been under cobwebs for a little while, but- Right ... [00:20:55] I just would come home from amazing opportunities to share my [00:21:00] voice and share my story and help other people, and I did. And then I would just come home [00:21:05] and feel like I don't know how I'm going to do this. [00:21:08] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:21:09] Amy Kurtz: And it [00:21:10] was so painful because I had this beautiful opportunity in front of me, [00:21:15] but I wish that I had known what I know now and done it maybe... [00:21:20] I, I just w- it just would be different. But- Yeah ... but anyway, I, I, I [00:21:25] really am grateful for that because it allowed me to stop and say, [00:21:30] "Okay There's still something going on. [00:21:34] Amy Kurtz: I know this [00:21:35] because no matter what I do, I cannot find the energy to- Mm ... meet any moment the [00:21:40] way that I want to. [00:21:41] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:21:42] Amy Kurtz: And that was a hard reckoning, you know? Like, especially [00:21:45] being in the position that I was and feeling like, do I do this again? [00:21:50] I've been to 35 people. Wow. Like, do I do this again? [00:21:53] Dr. Taz: Yeah. But [00:21:53] Amy Kurtz: I believed in myself, and I [00:21:55] wanted better for myself, and I had heard of this physician for a long [00:22:00] time. I had always sort of been thinking about him in the back of my head. Yeah. And I just [00:22:05] sent him an email, told him what was going on, told him how many people that I've seen, and I knew he had a wait [00:22:10] list, and I just said, "Will you see me?" [00:22:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:22:12] Amy Kurtz: And he said yes. Amazing. [00:22:14] Dr. Taz: So let's [00:22:15] talk a little bit about Lyme because I feel like it's one of the biggest sort of misses. You know, there are a [00:22:20] family of diagnoses that I feel like, first of all, are very difficult to make, and then secondly, get missed [00:22:25] frequently in the exam room. I feel like Lyme is one of those. [00:22:27] Dr. Taz: Epstein-Barr is another one. Mm-hmm. [00:22:30] Mycoplasma is another one. A lot of these, like, you know, sort of chronic infections. W- why are we [00:22:35] so confused about Lyme? That's a loaded question. [00:22:39] Amy Kurtz: [00:22:40] I know. That's why I asked. I think we are ... Well, I [00:22:45] know- Yeah ... we're behind. Yeah. And it is [00:22:50] very sneaky because not, um, I believe it's under [00:22:55] 30% of people get a bull's-eye rash, which is a clear- Right [00:22:57] Amy Kurtz: sign that you've been- And that's what we've been [00:22:58] Dr. Taz: trained, like, look [00:23:00] for the bull's-eye rash, you know? Right. But [00:23:01] Amy Kurtz: if only 30 people get that rash- Right ... how many [00:23:05] people are missing that they've been bitten by a tick? An acute infection's so different than a [00:23:10] long-term infection. Mm-hmm. But once you reach late stage, it has [00:23:15] infiltrated into your body, and it is called the great imitator for a reason. [00:23:19] Amy Kurtz: It [00:23:20] literally survives and mimics other conditions, and it certainly did [00:23:25] for me. Wow. So- Do you think you were bitten at, like, 14? Yes. Oh, wow. Because at [00:23:30] first I wasn't sure. Like, I could only see some missed signs in my labs in my [00:23:35] 30s, but ... Or sorry, in my 20s. There were things that should've been checked [00:23:40] that were missed, but I know now, knowing what I [00:23:45] know and knowing what the onset symptoms can feel like, that I have no doubt in my mind that [00:23:50] it started then. [00:23:50] Amy Kurtz: I don't have the labs to prove it- Right ... but I know it. So [00:23:54] Dr. Taz: Lyme, the [00:23:55] way we were trained, right, and you already know this 'cause you've seen so many physicians, but you get bitten [00:24:00] by a tick, you get the bull's-eye rash, you go on a short course of doxycycline. The story is usually [00:24:05] over. I think conventional medicine accepts, like, some people may develop chronic [00:24:10] Lyme, but chronic Lyme is, you know, limited, may flare if your immune [00:24:15] system is weak, you know, those type of things. [00:24:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. How was your experience different? [00:24:20] [00:24:20] Amy Kurtz: I, well, I, I was [00:24:25] so ill, and I was in so much acute pain when I was young. [00:24:30] It wasn't just physical pain, it was neural- like nervous system pain. Yeah. I [00:24:35] could feel people behind me. It felt like my nerves were jumping out of themselves. I didn't have the [00:24:40] classic joint pain- Right [00:24:41] Amy Kurtz: or flu-like symptoms. Like, I've sat with my mom and been like, "What [00:24:45] was happening at this time?" Yeah, yeah. You know, asked her. But it's been, [00:24:50] it's been really, um, very- a very interesting experience to learn [00:24:55] more. I'm on the board of a place called Project Lyme. Mm-hmm. It's a wonderful foundation. Yeah. And there's [00:25:00] so much that we don't know- Mm [00:25:02] Amy Kurtz: that's not in the mainstream about how to remove a [00:25:05] tick. Mm. How... That we should be sending it to a lab if you find it so you know what infections it [00:25:10] has. Um, and a short round of doxycycline- It's not enough ... from what [00:25:15] I've heard, doesn't work for people. It's not enough. Yeah. And so [00:25:20] I just think that there's not enough information, and we, we-- It's [00:25:25] such a growing epidemic. [00:25:26] Amy Kurtz: I mean, literally right before the actual pandemic, I was at [00:25:30] a gala for a Lyme disease foundation, and they said, "This is an epidemic [00:25:35] that's happening." Wow. And then the pandemic hit. Then the pandemic [00:25:38] Dr. Taz: hit. So the Lyme [00:25:40] belt you mentioned, it's, it's really this northern area of the country, correct? Yes. Are there [00:25:45] are- other areas that should be concerned or be thinking about it? [00:25:47] Amy Kurtz: I [00:25:47] Dr. Taz: don't think-- I think it's everywhere. [00:25:50] Yeah. I do, too. So you know, uh, you know, I'm in Atlanta, based in Atlanta. Mm-hmm. And I go back and [00:25:55] forth. But I know in the South, they don't think Lyme is even a [00:26:00] possibility. They're like, "We don't have ticks in Georgia. We don't have, you know, Lyme ticks in Georgia." And I [00:26:05] know that that's not true, right, 'cause we've seen it there as well. [00:26:08] Dr. Taz: Do, do you think doctors [00:26:10] and patients, you know, today need to be thinking about Lyme disease in the differential [00:26:15] no matter where you are, not limiting it to geography if you're having, like, chronic [00:26:20] pain, neurological symptoms, you know? I don't know if there is anything-- joint pain. I don't know if there's anything else you [00:26:25] would add to that list. [00:26:25] Amy Kurtz: Also, if you've been in a more wooded area and you have intense [00:26:30] flu-like symptoms- Mm. Mm-hmm ... that could be a sign. Like, intense body aches and symptoms, like [00:26:35] you feel really ill. [00:26:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:26:36] Amy Kurtz: Um, I think it's everywhere. I know someone who got [00:26:40] bitten in Central Park in New York City- Oh, wow ... because a dog had been upstate and came [00:26:45] to the city. [00:26:45] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. And it's just-- it's not something that can be ignored. My, [00:26:50] my doctor says he's-- has tick-borne illness patients all over the [00:26:55] country. Yeah. So I think it's something that everybody should be aware of. And the most [00:27:00] important thing at this point is being preventative- Mm ... which a lot of people [00:27:05] don't talk about. [00:27:05] Amy Kurtz: Right. And how can you be preventative? Well, a lot-- there's a lot of [00:27:10] things you can do. One is, um, you, if you live in a wooded [00:27:15] area- Right ... you can get your lawn sprayed with permethrin. I do that every other week because that's [00:27:20] the cycle that, um, ticks- grow in. [00:27:25] Also, um, I check myself once a day. Okay. Because ticks [00:27:30] can be as little as a poppy seed. [00:27:31] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:27:32] Amy Kurtz: So if I'm staying outside of the [00:27:35] city, I'll just do a quick body check. You know, they like staying in dark places [00:27:40] like- They like the scalp, don't they? ... your scalp. Yeah, yeah. Your armpit. Yeah. Like, anywhere that they can hide, [00:27:45] they will. And it's not to be, like, hypervigilant [00:27:50] about it. That's not what it's about. [00:27:51] Amy Kurtz: It's just about saying, "Okay, this is something that's affecting so many [00:27:55] people, so I wanna be careful." My very good friend created something called the Tick Mitt- [00:28:00] [00:28:00] Dr. Taz: Mm ... which [00:28:00] Amy Kurtz: is a mitt that you can literally put on your dog or [00:28:05] literally put on- Ah ... your s- clothes- Uh-huh ... after you've been in a wooded area, and if [00:28:10] there's a tick, it will stick. [00:28:11] Amy Kurtz: You put it in the dryer for 15 minutes. Just brilliant. Yeah. It's so [00:28:15] smart. Yeah. And it's really just knowing, okay, if I do find a tick on me, how do I [00:28:20] remove it properly? Where do I send it? How can I prevent something from [00:28:25] affecting me? Because what I know is that the people who have suffered with it long [00:28:30] term, it is so debilitating, and it does not discriminate against [00:28:35] anyone. [00:28:35] Amy Kurtz: Wow. What is the right way to remove a tick? They say to take a thin-tipped [00:28:40] tweezer- Okay ... and to remove it from the head. Right. 'Cause you don't want to take the body [00:28:45] off and have the head still- Still in there ... because it can, I think, do- I don't wanna be quoted on this- Right, right, [00:28:50] right ... but I think it can release more. [00:28:52] Amy Kurtz: Um, so and then you would [00:28:55] send it to, there are plenty of labs- Yeah ... that you could send it to, um, to get it tested because then you [00:29:00] know. A tick can have up to 12 inf- co-infections. Yeah. I have [00:29:05] three. [00:29:05] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:29:05] Amy Kurtz: So you know if you got bitten, you can see what that tick [00:29:10] had and know accordingly. It's just an empowerment thing. [00:29:13] Amy Kurtz: It's saying- Right ... "Okay, I'm gonna get ahead of [00:29:15] this instead of be behind it and just wait and [00:29:16] Dr. Taz: see." So what was the lab test that finally diagnosed [00:29:20] your, do you remember, that diagnosed your Lyme disease? So, um- 'Cause there's a lot of debate about testing. Well, that's the [00:29:25] other thing- You know? Yeah, yeah ... is that [00:29:26] Amy Kurtz: if you have late-stage Lyme, a blood test is not going to show [00:29:30] it. [00:29:30] Amy Kurtz: Right. And that's what makes it extra complicated. I am the type of person, like, [00:29:35] I wanna go at every angle- [00:29:36] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:29:37] Amy Kurtz: and prove it. So we did, [00:29:40] I did what he recommended, which was an IGeneX- Yes ... full panel. Yes. Um, Armin [00:29:45] Labs. [00:29:45] Dr. Taz: Okay. And I [00:29:46] Amy Kurtz: did one other lab that I can't remember, um, in this moment, [00:29:50] but just so I could see the three results, and they all lined up. [00:29:53] Amy Kurtz: Wow. [00:29:55] And I think there's also a misconception about late-stage Lyme, which is that- [00:30:00] Some people say, "Well, do you ever really get better?" But I feel like I have [00:30:05] a whole new body. Wow. And every time I've treated an infection, I've felt [00:30:10] better and better and better, probably than I ever have in my whole life. [00:30:13] Dr. Taz: So what were the three [00:30:15] co-infections that you had? I'm just curious. I have Bartonella [00:30:17] Amy Kurtz: and Babesia- Okay ... and Lyme, Borrelia. So did [00:30:19] Dr. Taz: you go [00:30:20] on separate protocols for each of those? Mm-hmm. Can you tell us a little bit about what started to turn you around [00:30:25] once you got the diagnosis? [00:30:26] Amy Kurtz: Sure. I, I think number one [00:30:30] is- I, my doctor suggested to me, and [00:30:35] he does both antibiotics- Yeah [00:30:36] Amy Kurtz: and herbs- Right ... that he thought I would have an easier time with an [00:30:40] herbal protocol, which is sort of what I preferred anyway. Right. However, once I knew that this had been [00:30:45] plaguing me, I'm like, "Get this out of me as fast as possible." Right. Let's do whatever. But I've [00:30:50] done mostly herbs. Okay. And I've had a profound reaction. [00:30:50] Amy Kurtz: Really? And he said, "You will get sick before you get better. It's a die-off treatment." Mm. "It,[00:30:55] [00:30:59] Amy Kurtz: it will [00:31:00] cause a Herx reaction if it's working." And it did, but because I knew [00:31:05] that it would be like climbing a mountain and then getting to a new apex- [00:31:09] Dr. Taz: [00:31:10] Mm-hmm ... [00:31:10] Amy Kurtz: I was like, I believed in myself. I believed him. Mm-hmm. I really trusted [00:31:15] him. Mm-hmm. And he was one of the first doctors that wasn't throwing so many things at me at once. [00:31:19] Amy Kurtz: [00:31:20] Right. So we went slow and steady, and then I treated Bartonella first because [00:31:25] my symptoms were mostly Bartonella based. It seemed that that was like the dragon I had to [00:31:30] slay. Right, right. And I really did feel like, wow, he was so right. I, [00:31:35] I am a different person. Wow. And then I went to the next one. So [00:31:40] it was, it's been a long journey, but I'd been living with it much longer. [00:31:44] Amy Kurtz: [00:31:45] And there is hope. It's just really, if anyone's struggling with Lyme or feels [00:31:50] that they may have Lyme, seeing a Lyme-literate doctor is essential. [00:31:54] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:31:55] And you found success treating each c- like stair stepping the treatment of each [00:32:00] co-infection rather than trying to treat everything at, at one time. [00:32:02] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. [00:32:03] Amy Kurtz: Correct? I also, [00:32:05] I found the relationship with this doctor very- Important? ... im- s- [00:32:10] so crucial. Yeah. Because he empowered me. Yeah. You know, he said, "I'm gonna give [00:32:15] you the answer. I'm gonna give you the treatment, but ultimately the pacing is [00:32:20] totally up to you." Mm. And I almost was like, wait, what? Like, up to me? I get to choose? [00:32:24] Amy Kurtz: [00:32:25] I get to choose. Yeah. I get to decide- Right ... how I, I'm gonna do this? And it felt uncomfortable. [00:32:30] Like I say in my new book, I almost felt like a kid in rain boots being like- Yeah ... "Wait, I can splash?" Yeah. [00:32:35] Because I wasn't used to that. Right. I was just used to always doing what somebody- [00:32:40] Told you to do ... told me to do- Right [00:32:41] Amy Kurtz: because they were the expert. And that was [00:32:45] so crucial to my full, full, whole healing- [00:32:47] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:32:48] Amy Kurtz: is that I [00:32:50] had to step into it. [00:32:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:32:51] Amy Kurtz: And he pretty much demanded I met him in the middle- Mm ... [00:32:55] without saying that. And just doing that gave me so much [00:33:00] agency over my health in a way that I had lost over the years that I [00:33:05] was struggling. [00:33:06] Amy Kurtz: And I really truly believe that that's like essential to [00:33:09] Dr. Taz: [00:33:10] full healing. It's so funny because, you know, we're living in, in a time [00:33:15] where, you know, people are like, "Oh, we're not gonna need doctors. We have AI, and we have [00:33:20] technology, and we have this, and we have that, and you can go get your labs, and you can interpret them yourself. [00:33:23] Dr. Taz: You can upload them here." [00:33:25] There is no healing without a doctor-patient [00:33:30] relationship. No. There's simply not. You can take stuff. You know, you can do a [00:33:35] algorithm or a protocol, but to truly be on a healing journey, it, it's this [00:33:40] energy exchange that needs to happen between two people that are [00:33:45] sort of mirrors in a way. [00:33:46] Dr. Taz: Like- 100% ... here's what, here are some answers. [00:33:50] How do you feel? And then you guys take that and you re-input [00:33:55] us. Like, I've evolved because of you, because of all my patients, right? That's why I've evolved [00:34:00] into whoever I am today because it's this- Mm ... constant, like, exchange of [00:34:05] energy and learning and kind of honoring every person's individual- [00:34:10] individuality. [00:34:10] Dr. Taz: But more importantly, you know, not to be too weird about it, but to be [00:34:15] like, you know. You, you know the answers internally, right? [00:34:20] Yeah, it's making me cry. I'm- It's gonna make me cry. But, like, I think that's the goal. It's [00:34:25] like to get each person in that construct to where they know, [00:34:30] and then trusting that intuitive knowledge, right? [00:34:33] Dr. Taz: And technology will never, [00:34:35] ever be able to replace that. But it's also- It'll make us efficient. Yeah. It'll find [00:34:40] answers faster. Trust me, I like my ChatGPTs and Clads and all those things, but it won't [00:34:45] replace what happens in the exam room, you know? No, [00:34:46] Amy Kurtz: especially if you have a doctor like yourself. Like, I can tell [00:34:50] this just from talking to you so briefly that, um, [00:34:55] you trust your patients. [00:34:56] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. And that is so healing because [00:35:00] the traditional Western medicine system, the [00:35:05] system for patients with complex, invisible chronic disease, not just one [00:35:10] thing, often feel so disempowered. Mm. And to have somebody say to you, [00:35:15] "What do you think it is?" Or, "How do you think we should do this?" Or, "What do you... [00:35:19] Amy Kurtz: What's your [00:35:20] instinct about what's going on?" Or, "Does this feel right to you?" Just those questions is, [00:35:25] like, throwing a patient a lifeline. Mm. It's, it is empowering [00:35:30] them, and it's also trusting their ability to know themselves, which is [00:35:35] what got them there in the first place. Yeah. [00:35:37] Dr. Taz: I mean, you had a long journey. [00:35:38] Dr. Taz: You had 20 years. [00:35:40] Mm-hmm. That's a long time. How did that impact your life? Like, the basics of life, what career you [00:35:45] chose, relationships, all these other things. Oh, [00:35:47] Amy Kurtz: so significantly. I mean, so significantly in [00:35:50] every way. My whole life changed. It felt like a rug was ripped out from under me when I was [00:35:55] 25. [00:35:55] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. And when I was young, from age five, I looked at my mom and said, "I [00:36:00] am going to be an actor." And she's like, "Okay." Mm-hmm. And I said, "That's it." Yeah. And there was no [00:36:05] other path. I went to college for it. I started acting professionally. And then [00:36:10] boom. This happens. And I was a patient. I became a [00:36:15] patient. [00:36:15] Amy Kurtz: Mm. And it's funny because I look back at my [00:36:20] life before. I used to always see my life as, like- [00:36:25] Before illness and after. And I sort of [00:36:30] was like, "Oh, I'll just do this and then get back to where I was. I'm just gonna get through this [00:36:35] and go back, and I'm gonna be an actor and I'm gonna do this, and everything's gonna be the way it was." [00:36:39] Amy Kurtz: [00:36:40] And then once I was finally better, nothing was where it was. Mm. Everything had changed. [00:36:45] Everything. The cruise ship was gone. Yeah. Like, there's soci- societal expectation, which I [00:36:50] talk about a lot in my new book, which is you're sick or you're well, and if you're well, get back on the horse, [00:36:55] but the horse isn't there anymore. [00:36:56] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. I mean, literally everything has changed. [00:37:00] And so it affected my life so profoundly, but if I didn't [00:37:05] go through what I went through, I wouldn't have started writing. Right. If I wasn't an actor, it wouldn't have [00:37:10] made me want another creative outlet. [00:37:12] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:37:13] Amy Kurtz: And writing books has been [00:37:15] so profoundly rewarding for me, and it's been another [00:37:20] outlet, different than what I had imagined, but there's also a [00:37:25] lot of grief that goes into- Yeah [00:37:27] Amy Kurtz: the loss of the life you thought that you would live. Mm. [00:37:30] And I used to say I felt like my life [00:37:35] had two halves. Like, it was before and after, and they were separate. [00:37:40] But then I realized they're all your life. Right. They're just different than you thought. It's [00:37:45] all your life, it's just different than I thought it would've been. [00:37:49] Dr. Taz: How does, [00:37:50] how does somebody navigate that? 'Cause there is a lot of grief that people [00:37:55] experience when they're put in a situation physically, [00:38:00] mentally, emotionally that they didn't really think they were going to be in or didn't [00:38:05] anticipate that they were gonna be in. You know, how did you see your way out of that?[00:38:10] [00:38:11] Amy Kurtz: Well, there's a long answer and a short answer. The [00:38:15] short answer is I- I think it's [00:38:20] impossible to pave through pain, and I think if you try, it just shows up later. [00:38:25] Mm. And because illness puts you in [00:38:30] survival mode, like you're literally in fight or flight, and I was in it for so long [00:38:35] that I didn't realize how much I was shelving [00:38:40] to the side for later. [00:38:42] Amy Kurtz: You know, I had been like, [00:38:45] I... Okay, this was bad behavior. I don't like how this person spoke to me. [00:38:50] I'll put it on the side and deal with it later. Or, um, this felt really [00:38:55] bad the way that this test went and whatever. I'll put it on for later. Or a loved one [00:39:00] said to me like, "I don't get it. They didn't catch that." [00:39:02] Amy Kurtz: Later, later, later, later. And I [00:39:05] found myself just putting things to the side, and it wasn't until after [00:39:10] I was actually better that everything else came up for the taking- Mm ... [00:39:15] because there was space. And energy. Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:19] Dr. Taz: [00:39:20] Relationships, did it affect relationships you had as a young woman in your 20s [00:39:24] Amy Kurtz: and 30s? [00:39:24] Amy Kurtz: 100%. Mm. I, [00:39:25] I had so many of m- people who I thought were my friends fade away. [00:39:30] Mm. It was so sad, and also a blessing [00:39:35] looking back because you really... When things like this happen, it's like a crucible. [00:39:40] You really learn who your people are because getting sick doesn't just affect you, it affects [00:39:45] everyone that loves you. [00:39:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:39:46] Amy Kurtz: And there's an opportunity to have a real deepening of [00:39:50] relationships, but not everybody's up for that. Right. [00:39:53] Dr. Taz: And a lot of people don't wanna deal [00:39:55] with that. Yeah. [00:39:55] Amy Kurtz: And I also met my husband while I was struggling- Oh, you did ... and we have a beautiful [00:40:00] relationship- Ah ... and we, we met each other during hard times in both of our [00:40:05] lives- Yeah [00:40:05] Amy Kurtz: and I really believe we were put together [00:40:10] to help each other through really hard things that most young people don't have to [00:40:15] deal with. Don't have to do. Yep. And, um, and then the friends that stayed, [00:40:20] I have such a deep friendship with that we never had that [00:40:25] before. [00:40:25] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:40:25] Amy Kurtz: But that's another thing I'm curious w- if you see this in your practice, like [00:40:30] nobody knows how to talk to somebody- That's such a good point [00:40:33] Amy Kurtz: who's struggling. Yeah. Especially when [00:40:35] they're young- Yeah ... and especially when it's invisible. Mm-hmm. I almost felt like there was this [00:40:40] space between me and every person I loved, even the people I had the most [00:40:45] intimate relationships with, because nobody knew what to say. And [00:40:47] Dr. Taz: probably, like, it's the eggshell thing. [00:40:49] Dr. Taz: Like, can we [00:40:50] say something? Can we not say something? Mm-hmm. Are you okay? Are you not okay? Do I bring it up? Am I gonna make you [00:40:55] cry? Like, this probably, I'm guessing, what's happening to the people around [00:41:00] you, you know? [00:41:01] Amy Kurtz: Yes, and I also think in some respect [00:41:05] there's a lot of, "I don't see it." [00:41:09] Dr. Taz: [00:41:10] They don't believe you. [00:41:10] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:41:11] Amy Kurtz: Oh. And I think a lot of patients feel that way, especially young women, [00:41:15] when they're being told, "You look great." [00:41:17] Dr. Taz: You're fine. [00:41:18] Amy Kurtz: You look fine. Or [00:41:20] like, "Any better?" You know, there's, there's a silent messaging. Mm. [00:41:25] And then there's the people closest to me that I know meant well, but [00:41:30] nobody talks about how to be there for someone. [00:41:33] Amy Kurtz: And really what a patient needs is [00:41:35] for you to ask them, "How can I be there for you? How can I support you? What do you need from [00:41:40] me? I'm so sorry you're suffering. Is there anything I can do to show up for you [00:41:45] better?" [00:41:45] Dr. Taz: So those are the que- like, if you have a friend or a loved one going [00:41:50] through a chronic illness of any kind, that's more of the approach. [00:41:54] Amy Kurtz: [00:41:55] Yeah. Or, "I know that things have changed. Our dynamic has shifted because of what's going on with [00:42:00] you. What is a way we can stay connected that feels good to you?" Ooh, that's a good one. [00:42:04] Dr. Taz: I love that one. I like that. [00:42:05] That's a really good one. Yeah. So you heal, you get better, but you talk about [00:42:10] something called medical trauma brain. [00:42:13] Dr. Taz: Which I'm surprised you even showed up for this [00:42:15] interview today 'cause I am a physician. But anyhow, uh, what is medical trauma [00:42:20] brain? [00:42:21] Amy Kurtz: Okay. So I laugh when I hear it because it [00:42:25] just, it's so, sort of so obvious, and that's why I named it that. Yeah. [00:42:30] But I found myself so much physically better. [00:42:35] Like I said, I felt like I had a new body, but I started to feel bad in a [00:42:40] way that I didn't- didn't understand what was [00:42:45] happening to me. [00:42:45] Amy Kurtz: I didn't even actually realize it was happening to me. I just knew that [00:42:50] physically I felt like I had a new body, and mentally and emotionally I was trapped in a [00:42:55] hell- Mm ... that I couldn't explain. I was so anxious, I was so [00:43:00] hypervigilant. Like all the time? Mm-hmm. Ugh. I was so afraid that [00:43:05] everything was gonna come back exactly as it was. [00:43:07] Amy Kurtz: I was obsessive if [00:43:10] I had the onset of anything that could've been a flare-up. And I'm [00:43:15] not somebody that hasn't worked on myself emotionally. Right. I had been in therapy for most of the [00:43:20] time I had been sick, but nobody had ever said, "This might be [00:43:25] traumatic." Mm-hmm. And it wasn't until I went on the worst date ever with my husband [00:43:30] Were you married at the time? [00:43:31] Amy Kurtz: Uh-huh. Okay. When he said to me, "I have to say something to you, and [00:43:35] it might sound a little provocative." And I was like, "Oh my God, really, [00:43:40] dude?" Here we go. But I do love him- Yeah ... because he tells it to me like it is. Yeah. And he said, "I think there's [00:43:45] another phase of this going on for you. I think what you've been through is really traumatic," and [00:43:50] I always knew there was gonna be another shoe that would drop. [00:43:53] Amy Kurtz: Mm. And I'm like, "A [00:43:55] shoe? What is, what is he even saying?" And like, how is this dude who's not a medical [00:44:00] professional saying to me- Know this, yeah ... that I am [00:44:05] going through something else that's never been said to me, that's never even been a [00:44:10] consideration? Because once you're well, you're well. Right. [00:44:13] Dr. Taz: Right? [00:44:13] Amy Kurtz: Right. But I wasn't [00:44:15] well. And I was suffering in a new way that there was no language for. [00:44:19] Dr. Taz: [00:44:20] Mm. [00:44:20] Amy Kurtz: And so I got help. I went to see a [00:44:25] CBT therapist, and then started learning about trauma, and I started to [00:44:30] realize, oh, this is a version of traumatic stress. Mm. You know, there's post-traumatic [00:44:35] stress disorder. Yes. [00:44:35] Amy Kurtz: That didn't fit, because that's when one single event happens that's [00:44:40] traumatic. Complex post-traumatic stress disorder is when the event happens over and over [00:44:45] again, but even still, this is different. This is when the threat is your body, [00:44:50] and it's constantly betraying you. [00:44:51] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:44:52] Amy Kurtz: And you've lost trust in it.[00:44:55] [00:44:55] Amy Kurtz: So what happened to me was that I was physically better, but my mind was still on the [00:45:00] survival hamster wheel, and it hadn't gotten the memo. And so for me it was like an illness after [00:45:05] an illness. 'Cause you'd been in fight or flight for 20-something years. Mm-hmm. But I think [00:45:10] that, you know, the 194 million Americans struggling with chronic disease, this doesn't [00:45:15] just apply to them. [00:45:15] Amy Kurtz: It applies to cancer patients- Yeah ... to patients who have had acute illnesses [00:45:20] like strokes, like horrible accidents and chronic pain. You [00:45:25] are in survival. Mm. And unless you work to get out of survival, you will [00:45:30] always be stuck in what I call the shadowlands, which for me- [00:45:35] It was like I was out to dinner with my friends. [00:45:38] Amy Kurtz: I was there, I was laughing, [00:45:40] I was having a good time, and yet there was a part of me- Just [00:45:43] Dr. Taz: like there. Yeah ... [00:45:43] Amy Kurtz: where my brain was, like, [00:45:45] trapped in a sandstorm desert all alone. [00:45:47] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:45:48] Amy Kurtz: And I felt so [00:45:50] isolated. And looking back at it, I can see I was [00:45:55] so anxious. Yeah. Like, I was really, really struggling because I was [00:46:00] terrified that I was gonna get sick again. [00:46:03] Dr. Taz: How did you get yourself out of [00:46:05] that? You know, and this is an aspect of illness and a journey that we don't talk about very much- No ... [00:46:10] at all. You know, it's always like, "Okay, you're better." You know, like, okay- Back on the horse ... we're back, we're back on the horse. [00:46:15] Yay, you know. But there is the fallout- Yeah [00:46:18] Dr. Taz: right? [00:46:20] And, you know, how does one go about resetting that? [00:46:23] Amy Kurtz: I worked a [00:46:25] lot on, um, m- nervous system regulation because I have a [00:46:30] very activated nervous system from everything that I've been through. Mm. I worked with a [00:46:35] CBT therapist. I studied s- immensely with trauma [00:46:40] books and understanding that your body can actually be rewired after [00:46:45] something severely stressful, and that then I started to think, oh, then I [00:46:50] think that most patients who suffer in this way, who are constantly hyper-alert and [00:46:55] feel as though their body is turning on them, need this reprogramming. [00:46:59] Amy Kurtz: You know, we live [00:47:00] in a country that doesn't reward recovery- Right ... in any way. [00:47:05] Right. It's like achieve, go, do. And also these- Crash ... binaries. Yeah. Sick and [00:47:10] well. Yeah. No space in between. So this was something that I thought, [00:47:15] "If I'm suffering with this, then I know millions of people are, too." [00:47:20] And I started to interview thousands of patients. [00:47:24] Amy Kurtz: And when I [00:47:25] said it, it was like a light bulb went off. Mm. And they were like, "Oh, my [00:47:30] God, this is exactly how I feel," and it feels like a ghost- [00:47:34] Dr. Taz: [00:47:35] Mm ... [00:47:35] Amy Kurtz: that doesn't leave you. A medical ghost. Yeah. And then I started to interview [00:47:40] world-renowned trauma experts like Dr. Gabor Mate and- Mm-hmm ... Peter Levine. Yeah. And I said, "It [00:47:45] feels like the stress is like wildfire." [00:47:47] Amy Kurtz: And they both said that's how trauma can feel [00:47:50] when it feels out of control, when your stress response gets out of control, not, [00:47:55] not that, but, um... And so I said, "Well, I'm gonna name it, [00:48:00] and then I'm gonna give a toolbox." But what was the most important part to me as a health coach [00:48:05] who's worked with doctors is that I want patients to [00:48:10] understand that ultimately every choice they make is up to them. [00:48:14] Amy Kurtz: [00:48:15] And the reason that I know that people can get through this aftermath or the [00:48:20] illness after the illness is because they were strong enough to get through the illness. The illness, [00:48:25] right. So if they can do that, they can do anything. And- [00:48:30] It's so detrimental to say that the physical body is [00:48:35] separate from the mental- Thank you [00:48:36] Amy Kurtz: emotional, spiritual self. They are one. And in [00:48:40] this country, we look at them as separate, and they're not. They, there's literally [00:48:45] no way to separate them. So I felt that I [00:48:50] went through an extreme version of this, but I know from how many people I've [00:48:55] interviewed that this is a real thing. Even I, I interviewed many, many physicians. [00:48:59] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. The [00:49:00] people that I'm closest to as well. Mm-hmm. And I said, "Have you seen this where the [00:49:05] patient is better but they're not better? Or it's like they're better, but they're still [00:49:10] acting as if they're sick?" And when I would say it, there was a real [00:49:15] recognition of, "Oh, yeah, I see. I do. I see that all the time," or, "I just thought it takes [00:49:20] time," or Yeah, I just-- And then, then I'd say, "What's the name of it?"[00:49:25] [00:49:25] Amy Kurtz: And nobody knew. So I created it. So you're calling it [00:49:30] Medical [00:49:30] Dr. Taz: Trauma Brain. [00:49:30] Amy Kurtz: Or [00:49:30] Dr. Taz: MTB. MTB. What are some of the steps, if someone listening [00:49:35] right now is like, "Oh my gosh, that's me. That's the space I'm in right now, and I didn't know [00:49:40] it had a name." Where would you tell them to start in terms of rewiring or [00:49:45] reprogramming or calming that nervous system down? [00:49:48] Amy Kurtz: Well, my new book, But You Look [00:49:50] Fine, the first part- Great ... yeah. Mm-hmm. The first part is showing you that [00:49:55] you might have it, too, and the second part is everything you can do about it. Okay. So to [00:50:00] really empower them because it's essential that they step [00:50:05] into this part of their healing as well because nobody cares more about them than they do. [00:50:09] Amy Kurtz: Right. That's [00:50:10] the truth. Right. Like, you're up to you. Right. And, um, I create a [00:50:15] whole pro- a whole program, but the first thing is to start to [00:50:20] notice, okay, I'm having a big reaction to something, [00:50:25] and have... create tools to understand what's [00:50:30] happening to you. Dr. Lindsay Tulchin is a CBT therapist, and she talks about the SUD scale, [00:50:35] which is being able to identify the spike in your stress and how, how [00:50:40] distressing it feels to you, and then to create [00:50:45] space so that you can take a little time away to say, "Is this really [00:50:50] dangerous? [00:50:50] Amy Kurtz: Will this be upsetting in two hours, two weeks, [00:50:55] or two months?" And then another tip that I love, that I [00:51:00] use all the time, is orienting, which is just feel-- getting into a [00:51:05] grounded space no matter what kind of worry you have going on and saying, "What is one thing [00:51:10] I see? What is one thing I hear? What is one thing I taste, and what is one thing I smell?" [00:51:14] Dr. Taz: [00:51:15] Mm. [00:51:15] Amy Kurtz: Just to really ground you into the moment. Um, I t- like to [00:51:20] take an hour. I say, like, "Stop, drop, and roll." I'll-- will put my phone away. I will get out of- Stop, drop, [00:51:25] and roll ... whatever situation I'm in. Oh, I like that. And I'll go for a walk, and if I can take a full sleep, [00:51:30] I will. Like, a sleep makes everything better. [00:51:32] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. And then once [00:51:35] you have calmed down, you can start to say to yourself- Is this an [00:51:40] emergency? Is this actually life-threatening? Is this [00:51:45] going to be dangerous tomorrow? And to start to, like, kind of [00:51:50] talk back to yourself and have a reality check. And then, um, Peter [00:51:55] Levine shares some really beautiful exercises in the book that people can use at any [00:52:00] time to help to regulate their nervous system. [00:52:03] Amy Kurtz: It's also that it can't [00:52:05] be go big or go home. Right. It has to be one small step at a time. And there are many [00:52:10] things that work for me that might not work for other people. I love to do breathwork. Yeah. [00:52:15] I love to, to meditate and to exercise because there's [00:52:20] actually science that proves that some exercise at high intensity can be more [00:52:25] effective than a Z- than a Xanax- Wow. [00:52:27] Amy Kurtz: Yeah ... that I found. Yeah. Um, [00:52:30] and also 70% of women have experienced medical gaslighting. Mm-hmm. So the truth is [00:52:35] this- I view this as an opportunity. If people are feeling the way that I felt, [00:52:40] that's, that's bottom. [00:52:41] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:52:42] Amy Kurtz: And it's the loneliest, most [00:52:45] isolating place to be. And so it's only up from there. From [00:52:50] there. [00:52:50] Amy Kurtz: And the, the best part is that they get to reclaim the trust within themselves [00:52:55] that they had lost, and that is the most empowering, [00:53:00] amazing feeling when you get to know yourself and you say, "Okay. I know that [00:53:05] everything inside of me is sounding the alarm, but I can [00:53:10] handle it." Yeah. I name the stress response that I used to have Super Freak [00:53:15] because- Super Freak [00:53:16] Amy Kurtz: she- You have [00:53:16] Dr. Taz: good names for everything. I love it. She, like, [00:53:18] Amy Kurtz: flies into the [00:53:20] scene with- Yeah ... glasses on sideways, cape messed up- Yeah. Yeah ... hair going crazy. Yeah. [00:53:25] And now I'm like, "I see you. I'm good. I got it." That's what you say. You [00:53:30] know? But before, I was Super Freak. Right. I became her. Yeah. So, [00:53:35] um, I really think that there just needs to be a part [00:53:40] of medicine in general that focuses on recovery and, [00:53:45] um, and the aftermath of [00:53:47] Dr. Taz: illness. [00:53:48] Dr. Taz: Of what happens. That's so [00:53:50] important. Well, your latest book, tell us a little bit about it, what you're hoping people [00:53:53] Amy Kurtz: will walk away [00:53:55] with. It's called But You Look Fine: Trapped in the Hell Between Sick and Well and How to [00:54:00] Break Free. Wow. And it's my story, but it's also naming [00:54:05] this phenomenon for the first time, showing people that they're not alone, and giving [00:54:10] them so many tools for how to get themselves out of it. [00:54:14] Amy Kurtz: My [00:54:15] hope is that it changes the narrative on what whole [00:54:20] healing really means- Hmm ... because- There's nothing worse [00:54:25] than feeling like you're through a storm and yet your mind is still in it, and it literally [00:54:30] feels like you're separated from yourself or you're just not really there. And [00:54:35] I do believe that healing from any kind of chronic or acute illness can [00:54:40] be so transformative, um, if you make it that [00:54:44] Dr. Taz: way.[00:54:45] [00:54:45] Dr. Taz: Yeah, a lot of sickness and healing is about trying to get us to that next [00:54:50] spiritual level, right? Or that next whatever it is, that next frontier. [00:54:55] And I, like you, don't believe that healing is just physical. That is the mission of Hol+。 [00:55:00] That's what we do- I know ... practically and, you know, kinda theoretically as well. [00:55:04] Dr. Taz: But [00:55:05] really believing it's if you have a hit at the physical body, you're also getting a hit [00:55:10] mentally, emotionally, energetically, and usually within your community, whatever that community looks [00:55:15] like, right? Yeah. And those things work like an accordion and influence one another for sure. [00:55:20] So it's very shortsighted, I would say this to anybody listening today or watching, that it's very [00:55:25] shortsighted to think, "Okay, I cured my illness," or, "I'm through this physical [00:55:30] component of my journey and it's done." [00:55:32] Dr. Taz: Like, you know, wash your hands and you're done. [00:55:35] There's a huge additional piece to it that never gets talked about, so [00:55:40] I'm so glad that you are putting it to paper and getting it out there- Thank you ... and really [00:55:45] helping people that might be in this place, whether at, they're at the beginning, middle, or end, or [00:55:50] after a chronic health journey, which is unfortunately becoming so much, so much more [00:55:55] common. [00:55:55] Dr. Taz: So thank you for, for sharing your wisdom and your experience- Thank you so much ... and your journey with us. Thank you [00:56:00] for having me. It's been, it's been incredible. I [00:56:01] Amy Kurtz: love talking to you. [00:56:02] Dr. Taz: Talk to us about where [00:56:05] people can find you, find the book, and then I want you to answer my final [00:56:10] question, I think my final question, which is what makes you Hol?[00:56:15] [00:56:15] Amy Kurtz: Love this question. Do you?[00:56:20] [00:56:20] Amy Kurtz: What makes me feel hol is that the [00:56:25] physical, emotional, spiritual, [00:56:30] mental self are all one. That's what whole healing is [00:56:35] to me. Speaking [00:56:35] Dr. Taz: my [00:56:35] Amy Kurtz: language. I love it. All right. Where can people find you and find the book? [00:56:40] But You Look Fine will be anywhere books are sold June 9th. June 9th. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. [00:56:45] And, um, you can find me on amykurtz.com or on Instagram [00:56:50] _amykurtz. [00:56:50] Dr. Taz: Amazing. Well, thank you again. So proud of you. Thank you. That- Oh, thank you. That means a lot ... that is a journey, [00:56:55] 20-something years. I can't imagine. Mine was way shorter, and it almost took [00:57:00] me out, so I can't imagine what you've been through. So thank you again. Thank you. And for everybody else [00:57:05] watching and listening, again, you know, so many people today are suffering from chronic diseases. [00:57:09] Dr. Taz: [00:57:10] They live in the gray zone. If you think they would benefit from hearing Amy's story, please share it with [00:57:15] them. I think we heal in community. We heal when we hear others have been able to make it [00:57:20] to the other side. So share this particular episode with them, and remember, we go deep on [00:57:25] all things nervous system recovery, Lyme disease, and more in my private community, which is the [00:57:30] Circle. [00:57:30] Dr. Taz: Head over, if you would like to join, to holplus.co/circle. I'll see you [00:57:35] guys next time. Before you go, take a second to reflect on what stood out for you [00:57:40] today. Then, if you can, leave a quick review wherever you're listening. It [00:57:45] really helps other people discover Hol Plus and start their own healing journey. [00:57:49] Dr. Taz: And [00:57:50] don't forget to follow me on Instagram, @drtazmd. I love hearing how these [00:57:55] episodes are supporting you.