Latest / The Kink Consultant / Sex Crimes Prosecutor Turned Women’s Intimacy Coach - A Conversation with Rena Martine

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Sex Crimes Prosecutor Turned Women’s Intimacy Coach - A Conversation with Rena Martine · The Kink Consultant

0:08
It's a King Consultant podcast where we're turning up the heat
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on all things kink and dating, relationships and cop culture.
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So close the door, plug in your headphones, and let's get down
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to it. Guess what?
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March 20th to March 23rd in Las Vegas I'm hosting a couples
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retreat. If you and your partner keep
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talking about building a Dom sub dynamic but all you've done is
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consume content and argue about what it's supposed to look like,
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listen up. You need to stop the arising and
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start actually building your dynamic based on what works for
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you too. Sure, you already know the
0:46
basics, you've read the books, you've watched the videos.
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But what you don't have is clarity about roles, power,
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boundaries or how to actually live this lifestyle without
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second guessing yourselves. You're going to leave knowing
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who leads, who surrenders, how power moves between you and how
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to hold that dynamic with confidence in and out of the
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bedroom. This is personal coaching in a
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retreat environment. Spots are limited on purpose, so
1:10
head to amandadames.com/couples Retreat or the link in the show
1:15
notes to book your spot now. I first came across Rena Martin
1:19
a few years ago, former sex crimes prosecutor turned women's
1:23
intimacy code and author of The Sex You Want.
1:25
She was on my radar, but it wasn't until I read her book
1:28
that I knew I needed her. On the podcast, her lived
1:31
experience doesn't just inform her work, it shapes it.
1:34
And the way she helps women step into honesty, confidence, and
1:37
their own power is genuinely impactful.
1:40
It helped me and I'm hoping it can help you.
1:43
Before we get into it, quick note this conversation touches
1:46
on some taboo and potentially triggering topics including
1:49
dominant daddy, little girl dynamics, sexual assault, and
1:52
BDSM more broadly. Feel free to skip this episode
1:55
if any of that sounds like something you could do without
1:58
hearing. Keep on kinking on.
1:59
Hey everyone, and welcome to a special episode of The King
2:02
Consultant because I am here in person with Reena Martin at her
2:06
home. Thank you so much for having me.
2:09
Reena is a former sex crimes prosecutor turned women's sex
2:13
and intimacy coach, and I discovered her on Instagram
2:17
years ago. And you were just, if your job
2:20
was cool, what you turned your whole life into is cool.
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Then I read your book and I was like, this is someone I need on
2:26
the podcast. So I'm really excited to share
2:28
Reena with you today. Reena, thank.
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You so much. I'm so excited you're here.
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Well, there was a moment when I showed up and I had to fangirl a
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little bit because I read your book and I could not stop.
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Well, I audibleed your book, which I have site note.
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Can I grab a book for this? Yes, grab it.
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Yeah. OK, the sex you want, you need
2:47
to read this book. OK, but I have a caveat.
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I am an audible girl so I just listened to it and I really
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regretted not buying the actual physical copy.
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But this book really helped even settle things in my mind.
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The number one thing I walked away with from this book was the
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ability to appreciate and celebrate little things about
3:05
myself that I would have minimized had I not thought
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about them through the lens of this book.
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So that's my quick blurb. I know we didn't even really get
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into that, but there are just things that there's a part where
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you talk about writing down things to celebrate.
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Yeah, and that's only one to. Brag about yourself.
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Yes, yeah, we're not there yet. Personally, in my I'm like, OK,
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let me celebrate little things. But there were examples that
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other women had given you in sessions with you.
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And it gave me permission to celebrate myself in ways that
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I'd be driving and I'd be like, wait, yeah, that was an amazing
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thing I did. When I left my fiance and said,
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no, we're selling this house that I didn't know how I was
3:40
going to recover from, to me, that was just like, oh, I just
3:43
did it. But in reality, it's like, no, I
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did that. Yeah.
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I made a choice, and I made it happen.
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One of the most empowering books I read this year.
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So yeah, I'm so glad. I can consultant approved.
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You have to read this book. OK, thank you.
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All right now. My gosh.
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Yes, yes. So thank you.
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So excited to have this conversation.
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We spoke a little bit about what we could talk about.
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I mean, between sex crimes prosecution, to what the work
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you're doing now, to living a kinky lifestyle and enjoying and
4:14
embracing it. Can we start with your
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introduction into kink and where it started for you?
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Yeah, I mean, I'm sure this is not a unique story that
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everyone's like, ha, this thing turned me on and I didn't know
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why, right? Yeah, I know.
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Where did that start? So I noticed that like certain
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movies I would watch, I'm like, I'm really attracted to what's
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happening here. And obvious ones like Secretary,
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right? But then like, I don't know if
4:41
you've seen Belle de Jour. I haven't, which I'm like, so
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embarrassed to say I know. Oh my goodness.
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Oh my goodness. I watch it at least once a year.
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Like I watched it a few weeks ago, in fact.
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But seeing that, I'm like, we're taking someone and I don't want
4:54
to spoil it, but we're taking somebody whose life is really
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fantastic on paper, who's got it all, but is craving something so
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vastly different where she's being humiliated and degraded.
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And like, what is the psychology there?
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And Bunuel, who made this movie, he was a contemporary of Dolly.
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And so both of them went into the subconscious a lot.
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And as far as what's happening below the surface.
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And before we started recording today, I was saying that like
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sexual fantasies just from an intellectual perspective are so
5:25
juicy to me cuz I'm like, what's the need?
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What's the need? And so once I started sitting
5:30
with OK, I am fantasizing not about being degraded, but like
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really being taken care of. OK, so was there a connection
5:39
there of being degraded and being taken care of and the
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enjoyment of the movie and that really sparking something?
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Yeah, I think, well, so she turns into a prostitute in the
5:48
movie. Who?
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Among us have not done. But she's like a high society
5:53
woman who's like, I just want to be a call girl and she's married
5:56
to this very successful, very good looking Doctor Who she
5:59
doesn't want to sleep with and she can't figure out why, but
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she wants to sleep with these strangers.
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And so I think what attracted me to the movie was this idea of we
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have this hidden part of us that want something so vastly
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different than who we are in our day-to-day lives.
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And for me at that time, being like bad ass bitch who takes
6:19
care of stuff all the time in my profession, you know, like as a
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married woman, really as a prosecutor and a trial attorney,
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I'm hand holding juries. Like that's a lot of what I'm
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doing when I'm interviewing survivors, when I'm hand holding
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their families during the whole process.
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Like I'm doing a lot of caretaking for other people.
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And I just wanted someone to take care of me too.
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And you deserved that. I did also.
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I feel I know this from your book, but I also feel real good
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girl energy from you. So yeah.
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Yep. I was reminded of a part of the
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book where I was like, yeah, she is a good girl.
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Did any of that, like, need to explore come from just being a
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good girl that wanted to break free and like, pull it out?
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I think so. You know, interestingly, when I
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first got into kink, I was like, oh, stink me, right?
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Like let's do the pain stuff, tie me up, do all this, do all
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that. And I was a bit more bratty.
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And over time I found myself wanting to be really good and
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not wanting to be a brat anymore because I'm like, why fight?
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That takes energy. You know what?
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I know, I know. New question.
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Yeah. Princess, Good girl or brat,
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which one do you most? Relate to oh, good girl, good
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girl. Yeah.
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No question, No question. Love it.
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Yeah. And I'm like, I'm not only going
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to be a good girl, I'm going to be the best girl you've ever
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met. Wait, that's a type A
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personality? But I think from your career
7:48
path and everything you've done, it does scream type A praise.
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Kink. Yeah, totally, totally.
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And then it's also a little bit competitive.
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The work you did, even though no one wants to think of what you
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were doing was very serious work.
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And you want to win because it's matters and it's justice.
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But there's also like, some being the best at that too is a
8:05
life. Changing, yeah.
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And especially because, like, it's a yes or no.
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It's a guilty or, you know, a hungry or not guilty.
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Like it's measurable and it has real life consequences.
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You know, on the one hand, when things work as they're supposed
8:17
to, it was a really great job at them.
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When it didn't, it was devastating.
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And that was part of what burned me out from prosecuting sex
8:23
crimes and eventually pivoting to other cases within the DA's
8:26
office. I mean, that's very intense for
8:28
anyone, but especially, I think if anyone has a lot of empathy
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and the work you do now requires you to still hold people in
8:35
their journey. Like you described some of that
8:36
earlier when we were chatting. And I mean, it's literally in
8:39
the book throughout how you hold space for people and help them
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on their journey. So what was the pivotal moment
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for you of like, OK, I really am done here and I'm ready to take
8:48
on something new? OK, so I had my, like, watershed
8:52
moment when I decided I can't do sex crimes anymore.
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And that moment came when I had a jury do something really
9:00
weird. Juries do weird things in sex
9:02
cases, especially when the victim and the perpetrator are
9:05
known to one another. If it's a stranger with a ski
9:08
mask and we got, like, a DNA cold hit, yeah, they're like,
9:10
great. This looks like exactly what I
9:12
see on TV. This is clean.
9:14
That's the boogeyman. Easy.
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Yeah. But when we start looking at,
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you know, what's most likely, which is it's a teacher, it's a
9:20
step parent, It's a relative, Right?
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Someone they know. Yeah, yeah, juries will.
9:25
They will bend over backwards and do these mental gymnastics
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because they don't want to believe they live in a world
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where that happens because they don't want to have to confront
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the reality that every time they leave their child with a family
9:37
member or a teacher or a coach, right, that this thing could
9:40
happen to them. So it's like, no, this must have
9:42
been a misunderstanding. And so, you know, these are
9:45
strong cases too. And I was shocked.
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The judge was shocked. The public defender was shocked.
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And I talked to the jury foreperson afterwards because I
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was like, what happened back there?
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They convicted him on one count, but then like on the more
9:58
serious stuff, they couldn't reach a verdict.
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So it was a mistrial. Our jury foreperson was a gay
10:03
man. He ran a nonprofit for under
10:06
served underrepresented youth. And I said what happened back
10:10
there is like, here's the thing, I work with these kids every day
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and these kids lie. Oh my God.
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And I understood that to mean like these kids who are not
10:21
white, poor kids, is what you're saying to me, right?
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I'm not going to say that to a juror like in my business suit.
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But that's when I was like, this is broken.
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And it wasn't necessarily the system.
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It wasn't like, well, the cops are broken and the judges are
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broken. It was like the jurors are
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broken. I'd like to think that in a post
10:40
Me too world, things have changed.
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But this verdict happened the same week that Louis CK's tour
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got cancelled. Oh yeah.
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Like OK, so let me get this straight.
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Because Louis CK, just for anyone who isn't familiar, it
10:53
turned out was asking women if they would watch him masturbate.
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Or like sent, if he could send a photo.
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I think it was like, yeah, it was.
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I'm not that there's a scale of minor to not minor, you know,
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occurrences, but these were adults.
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But there is a scale of power and understanding the power you
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hold by being a liberty and then using that to coerce people into
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doing things they might not normally do if you weren't in
11:14
power. So I just think that's a little.
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Right, yeah, the context, but like, you know, to see the
11:19
reality of OK, well, if you happen to be, and I'm using big
11:23
ol air quotes here, fortunate enough to be abused by somebody
11:26
in power, all you have to do is make the accusation and you see
11:31
real life consequences. This guy's tour got cancelled.
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I have these two young girls who are, you know, undocumented, who
11:39
don't know each other, who are being abused by the same person.
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And no one cares. The system doesn't give a shit,
11:45
right? And that's what upset me so
11:47
much. And that's when I was like, I'm
11:50
checking out of this. That's.
11:51
So awful. Yeah.
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Now, like, you've really painted a picture that so much has just
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popped up in my head of like, wow, this is what you were
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facing. Every day.
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It becomes even more impressive that you then went into this
12:02
line of work because that's a lot to carry and remember and
12:07
just here day and day well. Clearly, I still have feelings,
12:09
yeah. I know I.
12:11
Get real rough. But yeah, And I think now, like,
12:15
is my job heavy working with clients still?
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Of course, I have a not insignificant number of people
12:21
who come to me who are survivors because of my background.
12:23
Not all of them, but many. But any day of the week, me
12:26
feeling like I can give people hope and results because even
12:31
when juries did the right thing, it doesn't mean that all of a
12:34
sudden you're like, great, my sex life is better now.
12:36
Yeah. We're not giving people the
12:38
tools to heal. You might get like, some free
12:40
therapy out of it, but therapy and coaching, I mean, isn't, I'm
12:43
sure, you know, like they best work hand in hand when it comes
12:46
to recovering from things. So, yeah, yeah.
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So that's sort of like that was your jump off moment.
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OK, this is not working in sex crimes.
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I need to move. I started prosecuting other
12:57
cases within the DA's office. So I was in a unit that went
13:00
after bad cops, for example, like just doing other things.
13:04
And the pandemic hit. But before that, I realized even
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though I burned out from doing sex crimes, I wasn't feeling
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like I was making a difference. Like, my job became, like, a job
13:14
instead of calling and like, you know, my career.
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And I wanted to help people the way my therapist had helped me.
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And so I was actually considering going back to school
13:23
to become a therapist and doing that part time while still
13:26
working at the DA's office. And then would continue to do
13:29
that for another decade or so. Get my pension, leave the DA's
13:32
office. Yeah.
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Overachieve her all. I know I literally I was like, I
13:35
won't call her out on the. End I Yes, I know who I am and
13:40
that was my plan and just ride it out.
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And then when the pandemic hit, I was like, we don't know how
13:45
much time we have and I don't want to wait 10 years to start
13:48
doing the thing that I care about.
13:50
And so I got certified to become a coach.
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I started working with clients and I was like, if I can do this
13:55
and keep a roof over my head, like, Oh my God, what a dream.
13:58
And it's been a really wonderful journey since then.
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Well, thank you for walking us through that.
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Journey, yeah. I'm just so glad you're keeping
14:05
it like sharing this knowledge with everyone and helping
14:08
everyone on a daily basis with surviving and thriving after
14:12
incidents. And the work, honestly the work
14:15
alone in the book. This looks for everyone
14:17
especially for self-confidence. One another thing, if I can
14:20
fangirl it again. Yeah, let's do it.
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OK, one of the things you taught me, and I know this on a level,
14:25
but your example of it of when you gave a Ted talk and someone
14:28
went out of their way to say, well, you're only here because
14:31
someone else invited you. Yes, I would have.
14:35
Oh spit acid immediately stood up and said something cutting
14:40
back because that is who I am. But like the way you talk, you
14:43
talk about just having empathy for everyone and just
14:46
understanding that they have their own life and world to
14:50
protect and you don't personally come into it, so they're just
14:53
trying to protect themselves. It was such a good reminder for
14:56
me. Like I don't need to spit fire
14:57
every time I feel attacked or perceive my being attacked.
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Well, I did say because she said that.
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I said, I know that's my tone, but I was like, this woman is
15:07
scared about probably losing her job because they brought some
15:11
progressive in from a blue state to talk about sex on the stage.
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She's deeply religious. Like, yeah, yeah, she would not
15:17
have picked me to come on the stage.
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And like, I only hear because some guy from Chicago who had
15:22
moved to this school in Florida, I was like, let's bring her in.
15:26
I was ready to start Googling people to be like who said this
15:30
to. Her No, that's all good.
15:32
No, I know, but tell me that that's fine.
15:34
Calm down. My.
15:35
Entering the best, yes yes, but just the empathy you bring to
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your work too is really great. Now.
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I think you are uniquely positioned then to talk about
15:44
something that I don't talk about openly.
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I definitely don't talk about it on social media because of
15:50
backlash and really not understanding how to talk about
15:53
it even though I have interacted and done some of this myself.
15:57
DDLG, dominant daddy, little girl, any type of age play talk
16:02
gets extremely demonized on social media.
16:04
In real life, people cannot see past the, oh, you're saying
16:08
little girl, that most person must be into little girls.
16:12
Has that ever come up for you? And the work you've done either
16:14
as a coach, as a prosecutor, Like, does anyone ever say these
16:18
things to you and say, like, this is disgusting.
16:20
How can you handle it? These are the things I'm
16:22
hearing. Oh my God, we talked about this.
16:24
For like 10 hours. OK, so I'll preface this by
16:26
saying yes, I spent a decade of my career working with survivors
16:30
of sexual trauma, many of whom were children.
16:32
Probably spent thousands of hours one-on-one or, you know,
16:35
with a detective there, like with kids and hearing the most
16:39
horrific things that have happened.
16:40
I am a survivor myself. OK, So I'm coming up this with
16:44
the absolute highest level of compassion and empathy that I
16:49
can have for actual survivors of abuse and assault.
16:55
I will also say that the most shame that I see around people
16:58
who fantasize about being small in this role is from survivors
17:04
themselves who are like, wow, there must be something really
17:07
wrong with me and really broken with me that I am fantasizing
17:12
about a recreation of something that in some universe is similar
17:16
to what happened to me. And once you understand, like
17:20
how our brains work and how we try to work through trauma, it
17:23
actually makes complete sense why one would.
17:26
I'll share an anecdote and this is hopefully, you know, trigger
17:29
warning, trigger warning all the things right now.
17:31
But one of the only sex crimes cases that I saw with a female
17:36
defendant when I was ADA and it was actually not my case.
17:39
It was a colleague of mine was a woman who was in possession of
17:42
child pornography. And, you know, they can track
17:45
these things online. You know, they trace it to your
17:47
computer and they're like, you have, you know, thousands of
17:49
images of child pornography. Like, you're not our typical
17:52
suspect here. And it wasn't like she was
17:53
getting it for a man or anything.
17:55
This was for her. And I remember seeing her on the
17:58
stand. And I was like, what is this?
17:59
And I went through and I looked at the police reports and she
18:02
had told the police like, this is what I watched to masturbate
18:06
because I'm a survivor myself. I mean, this is before I got
18:09
into kink. This was when I was told DA.
18:11
But I remember that like that will stay with me for so long
18:14
because she was using this as a form of healing.
18:17
Granted, still a crime. I'm not condoning this, right?
18:20
So if we can like take a step back though, and understand why
18:23
would a survivor want to do this?
18:25
I think that's an interesting entry point because look, if
18:29
you're already recoiling listening to this and you're
18:31
like, but save the survivors, help the survivors, protect the
18:34
survivors. Well, let's look at why a
18:36
survivor would actually want this because it's very common.
18:39
So when it comes to healing through trauma, what our brain
18:42
will attempt to do sometimes is restage the trauma, which I talk
18:46
about my book, this idea that we are getting to do this over
18:50
again, we're removing The X Factor that made this, that made
18:55
this dangerous in the 1st place. So we are like, OK, well, I know
18:59
when this happened to me before, I didn't.
19:01
I didn't have agency. I wasn't in the director's
19:04
chair. And now this time I get to send
19:07
a message to my brain that says like, hey, I am and I have
19:10
control and I have choice. And so in many ways, our brain
19:15
is always designed to keep us safe and to keep us alive.
19:18
And so if you are yearning for something, it could very well be
19:22
that your brain is trying to help you work through this
19:25
trauma in the only way it understands or the best way it
19:27
understands how. But if you are carrying around
19:30
this shame, like, Oh my God, what is wrong with me that I
19:32
crave this thing that's not making matters worse?
19:35
And if you're living in a society that's shaming you for
19:38
something that you really have no control over, it's right.
19:41
Make the problem like it's going to make it so much harder to
19:44
feel seen, or like you can even seek out what you're looking for
19:47
with that shame. Yeah.
19:48
So OK, let's go into like the stuff that people really don't
19:52
want to talk about. Yeah, let's do it.
19:55
Which is, well, one of the things though, that comes to
19:58
mind. The first thing for me is, well,
20:00
that makes sense for the victims and survivors.
20:04
The survivors who want to repetition with agency.
20:07
They want to be able to be in charge of it.
20:09
But what about the Daddy Dom's who want it?
20:11
And I think that what we need to look at is what are we talking
20:15
about here, right? Like, if we're talking about
20:16
Daddy Dom, what does that mean? Because if we look at mainstream
20:20
sexualized media, like we've got bigger issues here in terms of
20:25
like, what we reward and what we consider to be sexy, just
20:29
generally speaking. But if we look past the, OK, I
20:32
want to pretend to be younger or more innocent, and we try to
20:37
look at what the emotional need there is, we can also say, all
20:42
right, daddy, what's your emotional need?
20:44
What are you getting from this? And because I'm curious and I
20:47
love finding out what the benefit is for people.
20:49
Like I ask these questions. And sometimes it's like, I want
20:53
to make you happy. Like I want you to know you're
20:55
safe. And so it's really just molding
20:58
to what the sub is looking. For But it's the caretaking
21:02
aspect for a lot of people. Like I want to feel like I'm
21:05
taking care of you. I want.
21:06
To feel wanted and need. Yeah, feeling need adored.
21:10
You know, I have seen a real shift happen and this is not
21:16
according to any research or data.
21:17
I would be very curious, Justin Jaylee Miller, if you are
21:20
listening to this, please do some research on this stat.
21:24
I would love to see if the data supports this.
21:26
But I anecdotally, I'm seeing a lot more women now who are
21:29
looking for daddy versus looking for Christian Gray, if that
21:32
makes sense. Yes and I of course sort of
21:35
theorizing well why is that I saw some guy on field said like
21:39
I feel like I'm in an orphanage on here because.
21:41
All y'all are looking. For daddies.
21:43
And I was like, that is so good. And it's true.
21:46
And a lot of people who were never necessarily into that
21:49
before and they used to be like, tie me up and spank me or like
21:52
daddy, daddy, daddy. I just want to be called a good
21:54
girl. And I think it's because of the
21:56
world we're living in right now. Men are fucking scary.
21:59
Our rights are being taken away. If anything, having an
22:02
opportunity to be reminded by someone like, Oh my God, there
22:06
are safe men out there who want to take care of me.
22:09
Yes, it's become more important than ever.
22:12
Hey gangsters. As a certified relationship
22:14
coach, so many of my clients have been telling me they're
22:17
struggling with dryness. They're just as excited and
22:20
turned on as they used to be, but their body isn't keeping up.
22:23
And they're not alone. I get it too.
22:25
Even when my mind is ready, my body needs a little extra
22:29
support and it can kind of kill the mood.
22:31
So I started looking into my options.
22:33
Yes, I always always have Lube in my drawer, but I wanted to be
22:36
more lubricated on my own. I wanted my body to match how it
22:40
was feeling. That's why I found Playground
22:42
Miracle Melts, A hyaluronic acid Suppository for your vagina.
22:46
I was already using hyaluronic acid in my body wash and face
22:49
serum, so why wouldn't I add this to my routine?
22:52
They're clinically tested, recommended by doctors, and
22:55
hormone free, which made them an easy.
22:57
Yes. And the more I talked about it,
22:59
the more I realized dryness is way more common than people
23:01
admit. So if you've been dealing with
23:03
dryness, you have to give the to try.
23:05
Check my Lincoln bio to shop playground today.
23:08
I agree with you. I do see this so much more.
23:11
I also just wonder if there is this trope that men, powerful
23:15
men are submissive, right? And I'm wondering if it's like a
23:18
trope of powerful people are submissive and women carry so
23:21
much more now than they may have 40 years ago.
23:23
Not in terms of workload, workloads at the same it's even.
23:27
But it might be higher now because people are working
23:29
outside of the home and coming home and handling a lot of the
23:31
mental load and labor at home too.
23:33
Just being able to relax and say please.
23:36
Somebody else make the decisions yes and that I think in terms of
23:40
why powerful women crave submission absolutely 50 Shades
23:45
came out number one selling book of the last decade yeah it
23:49
stirred something because women are like yeah, I want to be told
23:52
what to eat for dinner. You know, kind of thing, right.
23:55
And it's interesting because I did like, kind of what you just
23:59
said. Like, here's my theory on why so
24:01
many women are choosing submission.
24:02
This was a few years ago, and I went viral on TikTok because of
24:06
that. And then people just wanted me
24:08
to dissect all these other sexual fantasies.
24:10
Yeah. And I talked about DDLG, and
24:12
people in the comments went absolutely ballistic, as you can
24:15
imagine. And I don't go on TikTok anymore
24:18
because I think it's a strange place.
24:20
I don't like engaging with the commentary there.
24:23
And if I don't like engaging with them, then why am I there,
24:25
Right. And so that's my own stuff.
24:27
We don't need to talk about it. But the type of submission
24:31
though that I'm seeing women want under that category, yes.
24:34
Has. Shifted and it's like, no, I
24:36
don't want to be tied up and spanked.
24:38
I just want to be told I'm good. I want to.
24:40
I want the forehead kisses. Yeah, I want a daddy, right?
24:43
Like. It's just my effort to be seen
24:45
and appreciated, yeah. And not everyone's doing this,
24:48
I'm over generalizing, but I'm seeing this shift happening,
24:51
yeah, in real time. And I think it's because this
24:55
whole idea of, like, I'm this powerful woman and I'm choosing
24:58
to be subjugated. It's one of those make
25:00
Handmaid's Tale fiction again. Like, this is the 2025 world
25:03
we're living in where, like, in many ways, we are losing our
25:07
power and we want to feel safe and taken care of.
25:10
And for a lot of us, childhood might not have been that place.
25:13
I think that's a safe assumption for a lot of people.
25:16
But yeah, everything you're saying and just all of the
25:18
examples you're pulling in, it really is like, yes, just hold
25:21
me in a safe, warm place, Yeah, where I don't have to worry
25:23
about the big girl things of totally.
25:26
My life. Totally.
25:27
And my bodily autonomy and things that like at a different
25:30
time, I didn't have to worry about.
25:32
Yeah, now it's very much on my mind.
25:34
And you know, if we're talking age play, which is its own
25:39
category, right? And I'm sure that's or I'm
25:42
guessing that's maybe something you've talked about before and.
25:45
We had someone who was she specializes in age play and Oh
25:49
my gosh, I wish I could remember her name right now on social
25:52
media, but she wrote a book on how to be a little.
25:55
So yes, she went into like really the little mentality, but
25:58
we didn't even really talk about DDLG because we talked so much
26:01
about age play itself. OK, which is quite.
26:03
Different and that is not my area of expertise.
26:06
And when I'm talking about good Girl, it's less age.
26:11
This is what I want to get into because I think it's a really
26:13
hard distinction to make for people because they hear DDLG
26:16
isn't age play. Like I am my age, but I still
26:19
want a color and I stillwell, I like coloring anyway, but like,
26:22
I want to be told I'm good and I did a good job and that I'm
26:25
making my daddy happy. Yeah.
26:28
So I prefer to call it innocence play versus age play because to
26:33
me I'm saying this is somebody who engages in this myself.
26:36
I don't go back and have this age in mind like many littles
26:40
do, where it's like, what is my little age?
26:42
Is it 3? Is it 10?
26:43
Right. Which is something that happens.
26:45
Some people who are into age play just as a little bit of
26:48
background will have an age where they're like I'm into age
26:51
play or I'm a little and they might be like 3 to 9 or they're
26:54
a middle, meaning that they want to go into to those preteen to
26:57
teen years of like 11 to 16 in the middle at that.
27:01
And then so there's layers to it, but you're saying you don't
27:05
engage in any of that. That is not where your mind
27:07
goes. I don't talk about like I've
27:09
never talked about age in that way.
27:11
I will do. Let's pretend a world that I am
27:14
a version of Rena who's never done sex before, right?
27:18
Yeah, that is fake. That is an absolute bullshit
27:21
imaginary world, right? I've read the book, page one I'm
27:26
about. To pay for sex.
27:28
But gosh, isn't it fun to fantasize learning about your
27:32
body for the first time over again?
27:34
Especially when many of us like, my first sexual experience was
27:37
not awesome. Like, and I'm not even talking
27:39
about like unconsensual stuff. I'm like, you know, the first
27:42
person I had PIV with, Like it hurt like none of us knew what
27:45
we were doing. Like, no, especially if you lost
27:47
it to someone who is like, it was both your first.
27:50
Yeah, it's. Not mess, right.
27:52
Like, for me, for me, there's something really beautiful,
27:56
actually, to be able to pretend like I get to do this again with
28:00
somebody who I know is experienced, Right.
28:02
Yeah. Like I'm pretending, knows
28:03
everything and I know nothing. Yeah.
28:06
And it's fun. It's play, right?
28:07
It's it's pretend. And I get to be now more so than
28:12
ever, as somebody who's like, my expertise is sex.
28:15
I talk about sex all day as a sex crimes prosecutor.
28:17
I did that. Do now I do it in a different
28:19
capacity isn't it fun for me to cosplay somebody who knows
28:24
nothing about sex yeah that's the opposite of who I am in my
28:28
day-to-day life and so yes there is the nurturing component to it
28:31
too but like of course the thing that makes people very
28:34
uncomfortable about this is when we start to talk about sex and
28:38
how do we marry sex with even pretending like you are younger
28:42
in any way shape or form and your age right it makes.
28:45
People really uncomfortable. Really uncomfortable.
28:48
And to me it is about deeply wanting to feel taken care of in
28:52
my relationship. And you can have that and want
28:55
that without any kind of kink component.
28:57
Yeah, I think that's normal. I actually think the fact that
29:01
wanting that and that being normal is what is making the
29:03
daddy thing also skyrocket because it's not always a sexual
29:07
thing. Kink in general isn't even
29:08
always. No thing.
29:09
No, just that feeling of safety is something what you're
29:12
describing is ultimately a role play.
29:14
It is. That's exactly what.
29:16
It is. You're still gonna, you know,
29:17
put your big girl clothes on and go to work and do your thing.
29:20
But in that moment, you're being taken care of.
29:22
I mean, what is like, babysitter porn?
29:24
What is like, oh, yeah, we do this kind of thing all the time.
29:28
Look at how many costumes you can buy.
29:31
Slutty versions of Halloween that are like, you know, OK,
29:34
it's slutty rainbow brite, slutty Sesame Street like,
29:38
slutty like. Weed so many dude slutty Snow
29:41
White movies that we watched out growing and idolizing the
29:43
Princess. It's like slutty Princess.
29:45
Yeah, but it's like, and I'm not trying to shame that, but I'm
29:48
not at all. We wouldn't bat an eye at like I
29:51
loved no Way as a kid and I want to be the slutty version of her
29:55
as a grown up. We wouldn't pathologize that.
29:57
We don't. We don't.
29:59
It's actually society putting a pressure on us to pathologize
30:01
and make something into oh, it's wrong and that I think it's
30:05
society. We're making the wrong things
30:07
weird these days. That's a.
30:09
Point we really are. I mean, I know this on a very
30:12
logical level of what do you mean this is like taboo, weird
30:15
and you're not allowed to say this, but oh, we're allowed to
30:17
say and do all of these other horrible things.
30:19
Yeah, we are doing that. That is sad.
30:21
And you know, part of like my approach is I recognize I come
30:27
from a place of privilege, not just as a white able bodied
30:30
woman in the Western world, but as somebody who I used to have a
30:35
real respectable. Job, Amanda.
30:37
It's like I'm operating from a place of privilege because I've
30:40
seen the worst shit that pretty much any human can see by virtue
30:43
of the job I used to have. Yeah.
30:45
And I also know that I was well respected as somebody, you know,
30:50
within just the community, maybe because of my job.
30:52
And so I feel like if I can normalize these discussions
30:55
around non monogamy, as somebody who is non monogamous around
30:59
kink, around these things, I have the luxury and the
31:02
privilege of saying I know it's not going to ruin my career now.
31:06
And I know most people don't have that.
31:08
The fact that I can be a voice to talk about these kind of more
31:12
taboo fantasies because of my background, of course I'm going
31:15
to be the one to talk about them because then no one talks about
31:18
them. Like no one will touch this
31:20
stuff in the literature. No one's talking.
31:23
No one is, and people are really uncomfortable for the exact same
31:25
reason of what you described on what happened to you on TikTok.
31:28
Yeah, and you're a professional talking about it, and they still
31:32
came. And I'm sure they're going to
31:33
come at me on your show too. But if they.
31:35
Can't even have the conversation.
31:37
Yeah, about it. Then there's no way to progress
31:39
in it because people will continue to live in there.
31:42
This is how I feel and think about this.
31:44
I'm not changing my mind so. That's a lot of people are
31:47
thinking about it and wanting it, need to have a conversation
31:51
about it. But you know, in the same way
31:53
that infidelity rates are going up and no one wants to have a
31:55
conversation about non monogamy because it's very scary and it's
31:58
very threatening for people. Oh, that could be a 10 hour
32:01
conversation on my part and while I'm monogamous I have to
32:04
get on my soapbox about this one because it's almost like the
32:07
shame only comes into it when you're open about it, which is
32:10
mind boggling to me. If you want to hide it and have
32:13
an affair for 10 years, that's fine, but the moment you embrace
32:16
it, how dare you. You should be doing it and be
32:19
about it and that. Oh yeah, the people who judge me
32:21
the harshest are people who I know have committed acts of
32:24
infidelity. It is the craziest thing to me,
32:26
I know. Yeah, it's interesting not to go
32:28
like too far off course here, but I.
32:30
Can though. I feel like I've had to in many
32:33
ways come out again. Everyone in my life knows I'm
32:36
non monogamous. Like I scream about it from the
32:39
rooftops. And like at the time I wrote my
32:41
book, I had somebody who was my anchor partner, right?
32:44
And then I kind of had like relationships orbiting around
32:47
that and people understood that like at least got that to some
32:52
extent. It maybe it took some time for
32:54
like my monogamous friends, but like they could kind of wrap
32:57
their heads around that. But now I'm in a different space
33:01
where my anchor your partner is married right to somebody.
33:05
They're ethically non monogamous and people I know are like
33:09
losing their minds because they cannot understand how this works
33:13
for me, how it works for him, how it works for his wife.
33:16
They're just like, no, something about this.
33:19
I do not like it. It's coming out in different
33:23
ways. And it's been such an
33:24
interesting glimpse into like, no one's making this weird
33:28
except. You people not involved actually
33:30
in the entire situation. It can be this beautiful like
33:33
entry point into what is the fear that this is mirroring in
33:36
you? Like what is your fear that
33:40
you're now projecting onto me by virtue of how uncomfortable this
33:43
makes you? Have you gotten an answer to
33:45
that? Because even I, as empathetic
33:48
and I do this work, I don't always know what people are
33:50
fearing. And I think broadly speaking,
33:53
it's kind of what I was saying earlier about juries.
33:57
So this is a whole soapbox. But people don't like to be
34:01
confronted with something that destabilizes their sense of
34:04
safety in the world. And if you have to worry that
34:08
your partner, who is your sense of safety in the world is going
34:11
to find out that there's another way of doing things that isn't
34:15
always going to end up in a train wreck, that they are
34:17
seeing healthy models of non monogamy or polyamory, then it's
34:20
like, what if they're going to start wanting that right?
34:23
I'm not chosen anymore. This is scary for people.
34:26
It undermines their daily sense of safety and security.
34:29
That is what the fear is for so many people.
34:31
And I think understanding that that is your fear and that's
34:35
what you're projecting when these people who are bringing
34:37
their fear to you, it might help open the door to help them
34:41
understand, like being chosen is possibly part of their own
34:44
fantasy that they don't recognize is a fantasy.
34:48
And The thing is like I have been chosen in the past in
34:52
monogamy land, I've been chosen many times and it led me to feel
34:57
like I was in a prison. I don't want to be somebody's be
35:01
all end all. Like it is so suffocating to me.
35:04
And that is how I'm wired. I'm not wired for monogamy.
35:07
You know, I think, I think most people are actually wired for
35:09
non monogamy and choose me for different reasons.
35:12
That's a whole other thing. But like, I know this about
35:15
myself and it's like I've been getting this messaging recently
35:18
kind of akin to you just haven't met the right guy yet.
35:21
Like, you know, like the bisexual, like invisibility.
35:24
But also, that sounds so much like that's why you don't want
35:27
kids. You just haven't met the right
35:28
person right now. I'm speaking, right, Right.
35:30
I'm not. I'm not like, you don't want
35:31
because of this. But it's like.
35:32
But that's the message you're told anytime you're living
35:35
outside of what I guess is considered the norm and it's
35:37
challenging the status quo, it's because you haven't achieved the
35:41
goal society has set. And once you do, then you'll
35:43
want normal things. Yeah.
35:45
And I would sometimes get that with my former partner like,
35:48
well, you guys, this is just a phase.
35:49
And then you guys will, you know, you'll close up.
35:51
And I'm like we started off not but not.
35:53
Like. This is like from the beginning
35:55
or like this idea of like, oh, well, you know, gosh, if you
35:58
fall in love with somebody who's married, aren't you going to
36:00
want them pick you and leave? I'm like you're not
36:02
understanding this. Yeah.
36:04
You know, and for me, it's because you operate in like your
36:07
frame of the world and that's your version of the world.
36:10
And I'm not forcing mine on you. But like, you wouldn't say or I
36:15
would hope in this day and age, you wouldn't say to somebody
36:18
who's bisexual. You just haven't met the right
36:19
guy yet. And I wouldn't put it past
36:21
anyone tonight. I'm just like, well, yeah, you
36:24
wouldn't, but you shouldn't. Or when.
36:26
People say I could never do that.
36:28
I'm like, oh, if you meet someone who's gay, do you
36:31
normally respond with I could never suck Dick?
36:34
But like that, you do you. Boo.
36:35
Like, yeah, once again, no, I don't know.
36:38
Yeah, I think that. Like I'm from Los Angeles, but
36:41
like this. Like I agree with you, I just.
36:43
Said anything about you? Why are you making this about
36:46
you? Yes.
36:48
It's really offensive. Stop saying this to Polly
36:50
people. If you're listening this, just
36:51
stop saying that. I know.
36:53
It's one time people in a weird way decenter themselves to put
36:57
you on display to be like, well I could never do what you are
37:00
doing. It's sort of like.
37:02
Cool, more for me then. Thanks for letting me know.
37:06
That's another thing that I often think about of like, we
37:08
just talked cheating and how people want everyone to
37:11
assimilate and just appear monogamous.
37:14
But really, it's bringing in so much judgement.
37:16
I'm like, when is this judgement going to end?
37:18
When are we really going to be more OK with it?
37:20
And I wonder if we're ever going to get through to the other
37:22
side. Well, and it's naming the thing
37:25
and naming it is scary. And I think this circles back to
37:28
DDLG. We don't want to name the thing.
37:30
And when we start to name it and talk about the contours of it as
37:33
we're doing right now, oh, that's really scary for people.
37:35
But yeah, we can sell like the slowly Snow White costumes on
37:38
Amazon, like 12 different iterations of it and no one bats
37:42
an eye at it. Yeah.
37:43
Once again, because society has constructed in a way where they
37:46
broadly tell you we'll accept this and we'll put it in
37:49
Halloween stores, as opposed to, I really do think there's
37:52
something to what society says is acceptable.
37:55
And then it kind of moves the window on what we're all
37:57
accepting. They feel close to being in the
38:00
window of what's accepted. But so far at the same time, and
38:03
I'm wondering as a polywoman who is kinky, do you find not that
38:09
it's a competition? 1 is more widely accepted than
38:12
the other kink for sure. So absolutely.
38:15
So Polly is the area where the friends in your life will accept
38:19
the fact that you're kinky because that can happen in a
38:22
monogamous relationship between two people.
38:24
But God forbid do you enjoy one type of relationship with one
38:27
person and not from another? They.
38:28
Can't, can't understand. And I think part of that is
38:31
capitalism, right? Like I think that capitalism and
38:35
patriarchy are normally like. The woes and that's society is
38:38
made-up of that right now because feminism is now a bad
38:41
word to. Like, right.
38:42
Even all of it, I just, I can't keep track anymore.
38:44
But I think with kink, I'm sorry again, like 50 Shades, like
38:48
that's just become household name at this.
38:50
Yeah. Like kink is not kinky anymore.
38:52
Kink is not, it's not transgressive anymore, I should
38:55
say. Like there's certain things that
38:56
I think are always still going to be viewed outside the norm.
39:00
Like, I think if we start talking chastity, yeah, I think
39:03
if we start talking male submission, that still makes
39:07
people really uncomfortable. So.
39:09
But female submission, that's like mainstream at this point,
39:11
like I'm sorry, like. As it falls into the patriarchal
39:14
ideal of oh the man is in charge, the woman will submit,
39:18
but yes you are 100% correct. There are so many comments like
39:22
well, I just don't understand that that's gross I mean we
39:24
haven't even talked about things that are even not accepted in
39:27
the kink world like diaper play. Even if it's just wearing a
39:29
diaper, right, it is not accepted, yes.
39:31
So there are levels to it. But that makes a lot of sense
39:33
about Polly that I also don't think main stream media.
39:37
I mean, when you think about even what's on TV, 15 or 20
39:40
years ago, I guess Modern Family came out and that's the first
39:42
time that showed a real blended family of people coming in from
39:45
different places. What shows right now have a fair
39:48
representation of what a polyamorous relationship?
39:50
With like none. I can't think of any but.
39:54
No, I think we touched a little in dying for sex a little bit.
40:00
You know, I'm most excited that we're actually seeing
40:02
representation of bisexual people.
40:04
That's very exciting to me. OK, I'm not going to go off on
40:07
that tangent, but dying for sex, I think we touched on it a
40:10
little bit and I think Hacks, the most recent season of Hacks
40:14
with Hannah Einbender, she ends up being like 1/3 to a couple.
40:18
Actually that's. And they end up, what I loved
40:21
about it is that like, she ends up being the toxic one and not
40:25
them. Like, yeah.
40:27
And she's like, it's the toxic one.
40:29
But yeah. They break up with her because
40:31
they're like, this is not working.
40:32
And she's like, oh, like, and she is, she's projecting this
40:35
level of like emotional unavailability onto them because
40:38
she's coming from monogamy land. So that made me happy because I
40:42
think we were doing double duty. We were actually not making the
40:45
Poly folks the weirdos. And we were showing that
40:49
bisexuality is a valid orientation because bisexual
40:52
erasure is very common in mainstream media.
40:55
It really is. I love those two examples, they
40:58
are really good. We are not seeing good
41:00
mainstream representations coupled with Ruffle was a
41:03
disaster of a train. Wreck.
41:05
I didn't even watch it because I never think reality TV is.
41:10
But we only want to see the train wrecks because it's a hell
41:13
of a lot easier if you're sitting on your cozy sofa with
41:16
your partner to be like, see, that's why we don't do that.
41:19
Yeah. Versus like, oh, they look
41:21
happy. That looks healthy.
41:22
Which is why I love bringing people on who have positive
41:26
stories. And also there's a podcast.
41:28
I recently had someone else on the podcast, She's strictly
41:31
anonymous, where she literally brings on people who are having
41:33
good positive experiences where relationships don't fall apart
41:36
but thrive when they move into Poly.
41:38
Yeah, it's anonymous because people are sharing their entire
41:41
lives, understandably. Yeah.
41:42
But these things aren't all scary.
41:44
Everyone loves to point. Like, how many successful Poly
41:47
couples do you know? And how many successful
41:48
monogamous couples exactly? I know plenty of successful
41:52
couples on on all sides. There's no like 1 bad or good
41:56
virtuous area where things are magical ever.
41:59
So I just like hearing positive stories and the media, if anyone
42:03
here writes, we need more of these stories out there because
42:05
I think once people visualize it, I think that's what happened
42:08
with 50 Shades of Grey. It's like once you normalize it
42:10
by seeing, oh, this can work. People need a picture painted
42:13
for themselves. Yeah.
42:14
And I think that that's a lot of what you're facing is people are
42:16
being like, well, how does this work?
42:18
And it's probably especially hard.
42:20
They thought, oh, in your last relationship, you guys will
42:22
become, I'm serious, get married and close things off.
42:24
And now you're part of a polyamorous relationship with
42:28
someone who is married. Yeah.
42:29
Which immediately then quells this idea that oh, you'll close
42:33
off. It's funny, like someone asked
42:35
me what I was doing for Thanksgiving, and I was like,
42:36
oh, I'm spending it with my partner, his wife and their
42:39
teenage daughter. And the response was like, this
42:42
needs to be in your memoir. And I'm like, it's funny because
42:46
it's like, it's not that salacious.
42:47
It was actually a very wholesome, lovely day that we
42:50
had. I'm like, so this leads me to my
42:52
next point, which is if we had healthy depictions of polyamory
42:56
on TV, they'd probably be kind of boring.
42:58
Yeah. Because they're not very
43:00
dramatic like. Just like healthy kink is
43:03
actually quite boring 90% of the time and then 10%.
43:07
The part that actually involves sex is probably the interesting
43:09
part, but it's that's not 100% of.
43:11
Your life? No.
43:12
Yeah, polyamorous is just polyamorous relationships.
43:16
There are multiple relationships.
43:17
Yeah, they're put on a weird pedestal sometimes.
43:20
Well, because yeah, it's like, no, this is going to turn into
43:22
Real Housewives. I'm like, no, like that's
43:24
actually, I don't know if you've seen the meme, like what people
43:27
think polyamory is, Yes, the garden of earthly Delight and
43:30
what it actually is. And it's like Google Calendar.
43:32
It's like that's like. I know and like a lot of game
43:35
nights too. So for anyone who is interested
43:38
in DLG who might even be facing some of that internal shame, if
43:42
you could give someone advice for like feeling guilt or shame
43:45
about wanting this, what would you say to them?
43:48
Say curiosity is the antidote to judgment.
43:51
So always getting curious, which is okay, what is it about the
43:55
thing that either turns me on or sounds appealing to me?
43:58
And I'm sure you have in your line of work your own version of
44:01
that question that you help clients with, right?
44:03
Yeah. Well, I always say lead with
44:04
curiosity. Yes, Yeah, because I think it
44:07
opens the doors. Yeah, yeah.
44:08
But I think you were saying before we started recording,
44:10
like, what is it that you want to feel?
44:12
Yeah, that's the core of my work is getting to that because I
44:15
think it helps people speak to other people about it, and it
44:19
really just forces you to talk about it a little bit more
44:21
yourself and just face, well, what is it that I'm looking for?
44:24
What am I trying to achieve here?
44:26
As a good girl, What? What do you want to feel?
44:29
I definitely have a praise kink. So I like to be told I'm great.
44:35
Like when you're like, I'm fangirling on you.
44:36
I'm like, please, like I love this.
44:39
But but this goes back to like women, we are taught to minimize
44:43
how good we are, right? We're taught not to boast, not
44:46
to be boastful, not to be proud of ourselves, which is why in my
44:48
book, I'm like, you know, brag about yourself all the time.
44:51
But I like to be told that I'm good because I've worked hard.
44:55
I've worked really hard, you know, Still.
44:57
Working really hard, you're working.
44:58
Yes, I've learned how to rest. That was a whole unlearning.
45:01
But rest, people, rest. You must rest.
45:04
By the way, though, in this moment, I just want to point out
45:06
that even though you're resting, you're still working hard.
45:09
Oh yeah, you're just not working to the point of exhaustion.
45:12
And you still deserve to be more than ever, deserve to be
45:14
rewarded. Then yeah, it's like sleeping.
45:16
Say, like if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in
45:20
your life. I'm like, I could talk about
45:21
this all day. It's my favorite thing in the
45:24
world. And then it doesn't feel like
45:25
work. So praise.
45:27
I like to feel praise. I really like to feel taken care
45:30
of and safe and listen, I've seen some of the worst parts of
45:35
humanity, like truly shit that I will not repeat ever to anyone.
45:41
And it's really nice, especially to be around men and to know
45:46
that I am safe. That's nice.
45:49
I'm not going to lie. It is nice to have somebody open
45:53
a car door for me. Yeah.
45:55
I really like that too. My daddy partner, now he orders
45:58
for me at restaurants. I know 30 years ago this would
46:01
have been like, you know this, you're a liberated woman.
46:04
How could you? I'm like, I know it's because
46:06
I'm a liberated woman and I don't need anyone ordering for
46:08
me that I'm like, that's so sweet.
46:11
It is really sweet. Is that part of your the dynamic
46:14
you have with him? Yeah, he started doing it and I
46:16
gave positive reinforcement. I was like, I love that.
46:18
And because he said to me he's like all I want to do is take
46:20
care of you. It's been work for me to receive
46:22
that because I want that too. Yeah, I'm an over functioner and
46:27
I think a lot of women are. And I don't mean to make
46:29
everything gendered. Like, no, I think it's OK, and I
46:32
think a lot of my listeners are aligned with like things being
46:37
gendered at times. Yes.
46:38
I mean, we see differences based on, you know, in the research
46:41
when it comes to sexual fantasies, women versus men,
46:43
Yes, pretty clearly. So if our kinks were not
46:46
sociological, we wouldn't see differences like that.
46:49
Yeah, it just reminds me of, I know plenty of women who
46:52
identify as a daddy because it's that caretaker role, more even
46:55
than the mommy or the provider caretaker that you're
46:57
describing. So it's sort of like, we might
46:59
say gendered, but daddy doesn't always need to be a woman or a
47:02
baby. Excuse me.
47:03
Yeah. Oh, totally.
47:04
And I think the totally other thing, there's just so much
47:05
openness and. Daddy's the state of mind.
47:08
And look, yes, it is Pedro Pascal.
47:12
Like when his character, and I don't think this will be a
47:14
spoiler for anyone. If you watch The Last of Us, his
47:17
character gets killed off. And I was like, that is just
47:19
cruel. Because right now America needs
47:21
a zaddy, yes. And he was our zaddy because
47:24
he's like this comforting, safe caretaking thing and we all
47:29
fucking love him for it. I didn't watch the show and even
47:32
I knew that. Yeah, that's spoiler I guess,
47:34
yeah. But I.
47:35
Didn't get to experience. But the character, he's like our
47:38
sex symbol right now because. He's perfect.
47:40
Yeah, whereas, and I was reading an article about this today,
47:42
like it used to be the the aloof forever bachelor George Clooney
47:46
was like the sex symbol. And now why is it that we're all
47:50
like zaddy, zaddy, Zaddy? Someone emotionally stable and
47:54
present and able to hold space for us as opposed to pushing us
47:58
away. And protect.
47:59
Yeah. So I'm just going to say the
48:02
quiet part out loud because, like, on a massive scale, we're
48:06
seeing this shift and we're all doing it.
48:09
And no one wants to talk about the thing that we are all
48:12
actually craving because it's scary.
48:14
Because there is a real version of this that is abusive.
48:18
And in the same way that Dan Savage says that kink is just
48:21
cops and robbers for grown-ups with their pants off, like,
48:24
yeah, there are people who have actually.
48:26
Been. Victims in an armed robbery in a
48:28
bank, right? Like yes, but I think not seeing
48:33
the nuance here is pushing more people into the closet and
48:37
adding shame, especially for folks who themselves are
48:40
survivors. Yes.
48:41
I don't think it's healthy to assume that any person who
48:44
indulges in somebody's good girl or little girl, whatever
48:48
fantasy, is an abuser. In fact, I've had to do a lot of
48:52
work to tell mostly men like this doesn't make you a bad
48:56
person to do this. And the reason she's asking for
48:58
this is actually because and she is empowered and not because
49:01
she's disempowered. And so it's typically the good
49:05
guys who struggle the most with this.
49:08
And there is a permission giving there any kind of dominant role
49:11
really. But you know, that's that's kind
49:13
of your area of expertise. And I, but we do talk about it a
49:16
lot once people understand that this is what they're interested
49:19
in. Do you have any advice for how
49:20
to communicate it with a partner or how to be able to balance out
49:24
this space of this innocence play?
49:27
Is that what we're That's what I.
49:28
Call it for me. Meet you where you were at and
49:31
you naturally fell into this or was there some negotiating that
49:34
you guys had to do to fine tune? Did I?
49:37
Because I'm rena date one. I was like, hey, so do you have
49:41
any kinks? And like I said, what mine were,
49:44
he talked about his experience or lack thereof with certain
49:47
things and things that he gravitated towards.
49:50
And I will say this as somebody who's been with folks who are
49:54
really experienced or have a lot of experience with this and
49:56
people who are like Rena show me how like there are people who
49:59
are just born for this and who are naturals.
50:02
And he is one of those people, which is great.
50:04
I haven't had to do much like guiding at all, even though I
50:08
have a lot of experience. So I think it was more like,
50:11
here's what I like about about this.
50:13
I like being rewarded. I like carrot, not stick, right?
50:17
Like don't punish me, but offer me incentives and rewards and
50:21
like I will always work for them.
50:23
And so, yeah, I don't want to like tell someone how to Dom me,
50:26
but it's just like, here are the themes.
50:28
Here are the notes that I'm looking for.
50:30
And I like to feel taken care of.
50:31
And what are you looking to get out of this?
50:33
And so like me understanding what that dynamic brings to him,
50:36
him understanding what it brings to me.
50:38
And then he can kind of curate it from there.
50:41
And then occasionally I will, like, push the envelope a little
50:43
bit to be like, was that too much?
50:45
Is that weird for you? He's like, And then he'll tell
50:46
me yes or no. Yeah.
50:48
And we don't know until we do it, because not from a bratty
50:51
place, but like a. No, of just like you're
50:53
exploring the edges of whatever you're, yeah, whatever.
50:57
You're and I'm funny about it when I do it like don't get me
50:59
wrong, like this is like, but daddy like I don't even know
51:03
what sex is like. I mean, this is what we're
51:06
talking about here. Like everything, you just.
51:09
I said though was sort of a mic drop moment for me because I
51:12
work with a lot of women specifically who are like, well,
51:15
I don't want to teach him. But what you're describing is he
51:18
didn't show up to the dinner like, well, I'm a daddy and I
51:21
want to be a caretaker Dom type. You introduced your interests
51:25
and he ran with them and you let him figure out himself in it.
51:28
And I think that's the best point is or a point you made
51:31
without making is sometimes someone might not say they're
51:34
king, they might not identify as a Dom, but they're born for it.
51:36
They just haven't tapped into it.
51:38
And what you did, what you said, this is how I want to feel.
51:40
This is what I'm interested in and allowed him to plug in and
51:43
see where it fits. Yeah.
51:45
And then the final thing you did was checked in with him to see
51:48
how it works for him, if he's into it, what he's getting out
51:50
of it. And I think the piece that's so
51:53
important, see, I told you, mic drop moment.
51:54
I'm like, oh, yes, exactly. The piece that's so important is
51:56
letting someone express how they feel about it and what they're
51:59
getting out of it. Because if they say it's really
52:01
not doing anything for me, then you know that probably you are
52:04
going to end up doing a lot more teaching because they want to
52:06
make you happy, but it's not doing it for them.
52:09
And then you need to understand that.
52:10
And you cannot continue to strive for the fantasy of, oh,
52:13
he's going to do my perfect Daddy Dom, Because it's like,
52:16
no, he might do it for you, but that's going to make it harder
52:18
to be perfect. Totally.
52:20
And I don't want to do that with somebody unless they are really
52:23
excited about it. I have a play partner in my life
52:26
who is not into that at all. And so I will, like, use it as a
52:30
way to razz. I'm like, Daddy, He's like,
52:32
don't call me that. Like, like, but like, I like, I
52:38
fuck with him about it. And it's like, I'm like, wait,
52:40
do you mean that I'm a good girl?
52:42
And he's like, no, you're a grown woman.
52:44
You're not a good girl. And so, like, it becomes a joke.
52:47
Yeah, Right. Like, it's a playful thing.
52:49
And I think understanding that there's levity here.
52:51
Yeah. And the thing that we all don't
52:54
want to talk about, which is actual abuse, like that is
52:56
serious. Yeah.
52:57
That is not. And it exists in the world.
53:00
It's an ugly part of the world that we cannot get rid of
53:03
anytime soon. Sad but true, right?
53:06
I mean. Or maybe ever, yeah.
53:08
Yeah, and that's. I think that's what also makes
53:10
it so scary and scary to touch, think about, talk about because
53:15
we're so powerless and really stopping it at a large scale.
53:18
For sure, for sure. And again, we don't like talking
53:21
about it and we want to pretend like it just doesn't exist.
53:24
But if we're not talking about the thing and we're not talking
53:27
about the kink that a lot of people have, then we aren't
53:31
giving people tools to do it safely, right?
53:34
We aren't giving people tools to assess.
53:36
Is this person predatory or are they just like a responsible
53:39
kingster? We're not giving people tools if
53:41
we're not talking about things. And that is why I want to thank
53:44
you for coming on to actually talking about it, because these
53:46
are the tools and the permission.
53:48
And I do sometimes think that people are in general and that's
53:51
why they listen to podcasts and read books of like, yes, it is
53:56
OK, there is permission out there.
53:57
I can give the permission to myself even like learning that
54:00
is super important. And I'm sure you and I can both
54:02
say permission granted. If you're looking for a
54:05
permission slip, this is it. This is it.
54:06
This is it. But once again, I want to
54:08
reiterate, you have to go buy a copy of the physical book.
54:11
I well now I have a copy of the. You can listen to it too, or the
54:14
e-book. Or the e-book would be perfect.
54:16
That would have been the perfect like for me.
54:19
The Sexy 1 by Reena Martin. A shameless journey to deep
54:23
intimacy, honest pleasure and a life you love.
54:25
I really felt that walking away from it.
54:27
I felt a new appreciation for the life I've built for myself
54:30
and not taking it for granted or just thinking, well, that's what
54:32
you do. You rebuild.
54:34
Yeah. Celebrate that you've rebuilt.
54:36
Yes. To, like, hold that moment.
54:38
Reena, thank you so much for your time and sharing stories.
54:41
This was fantastic. It was so great to meet you in
54:44
person. Likewise, yeah.