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Leaving the Label, Keeping the Good: A Hopeful Roadmap | Thinking Out Loud · Thinking Out Loud | Kimberly

• Kimberly: Hi everyone, I'm Kimberly and today I'm interviewing Audra. Audra Phelps: Hello. Hi everyone. Kimberly: All right, Audra, tell us about yourself. Audra Phelps: ⁓ I am currently living overseas. I've been overseas for about 13 years, but getting ready to head back to the United States. I am pursuing a career full-time as a coach for women who have left the Mormon Church / LDS Church. ⁓ And because it's a very it's a very lonely and confusing time for a lot of women when they leave. Left over 10 years ago, I did it alone without any kind of a framework or a mentor. And I've I've learned a lot about myself, a lot about identity, a lot about emotional regulation. And I want to reach back and help those womans, those women, especially those who are still raising kids, because when you're in the middle of raising kids, it's an especially ⁓ complicated time when you're also going through an identity. crisis and so I am now coaching women who have left the church. Kimberly: What I hear from you is what you're trying to do from all the things that I've gotten to know you about is that you're trying to help women have a sense of community for making their own choice. If they're like, hmm, this this doesn't align with what I wanna what I wanna do and how I wanna raise my kids anymore Or maybe I wanna take some values but trying to detangle it is what I've heard a lot of what you've talked about. Audra Phelps: Right. Yeah, exactly. I ⁓ And and I always bef you know, before I tell my story about leaving the church, I always start with the the caveat that my intention is never to convince someone to leave the church or convince them to follow my path, what I did. it's more about sharing my story for those who have already left or they've left in their heart at least, and they they are really struggling with coming to know Who they are, I want them to know that they absolutely can unravel everything that they had learned that didn't sit right with them, but also find out what does still resonate with them because, like you said, there is a lot of good in the church, and so it's not all about you know cutting everything off and walking away, but how can you you know that you're ready to leave, that that's the right step for you, but then integrate the good parts of you and the learnings that you got from when you were in the church and take that moving forward with clarity and confidence and you know especially into motherhood because being parenting is really a subset of who you are and you in order to be really secure in who you are as a mom you need to know who you are as an individual first and so it's just really a message of hope that yes it's possible to get to the point where you're thinking about the church without anger and resentment and you've taken the good and you've moved forward and you've created something that really aligns with you. Kimberly: And even hearing from you too, it's like you could even help people who want to stay in the community. That's what I heard you saying. Of yeah, I just want you though to be authentic about who you are and not just because I think in a lot of ways we enmesh ourselves, we can enmesh ourselves with our husbands, our children, and ⁓ our religion. And what I'm learning out is those are different layers of codependency and it cause a lot of resentment in ourselves and we can't e even if we do believe Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yes. Kimberly: In the religion, like from exactly script by script, it's hard to trust it if it's something we feel forced to do, or even our marriage or even our children, versus it's something we want to do. Cause both can be true as we want to do it, but when we're feeling like we have to do it, there's that tension. It's cause like we are more than just the roles in people's lives. Audra Phelps: Yeah, and if it's if you're feeling like it's an obligation, then that is a sign that something's not aligning with you. That there's something there that's out of sync with you. And that's that's a good time to really take a deep dive into what is it I'm feeling around this thing. Why why am I feeling you if something feels like an obligation, it probably feels constrictive in your body, right? It's like, ⁓ I don't want to do that. Well really that's that's your subconscious speaking to you through your body before your conscious mind has a chance to talk you out of it. It's your subconscious mind saying, There's something here that's not aligning with me. There's there's some belief here that isn't sitting right. And a lot of times in high demand religions, you just you push it down. You push it down, right? But but this is what I'm told I have to do. This is what the church is telling me will, you know, give me eternal salvation, or or whatever the conditioning, you know, that there was. but that's a sign that there's something. to investigate there, there's something that's not sitting right. Kimberly: Yeah. And and it's hard too because when it comes to because there can be so many good leaders, but they're being led by bad leaders too in the church. And so if you can't see because for me when it comes to the Bible, I'm like full on pretty much almost anything Jesus says, I'm like, I'm in. He's he knows what he's talking about. I'm in. And I really I've kind of lived my life more so what Jesus taught versus like the Ten Commandments. Like obviously Jesus wasn't going around murdering people, so I'm not gonna do that. So naturally I follow the Ten Commandments. But I think too, like I have seen so many people cherry pick the Bible. And I hope this resonates. I learned that the Bible was written at a twelfth grade level, and a lot of books we read today is like fourth to sixth grade level. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Kimberly: So I'm like, we're not even like pushing critical thinking and it's like we're ha we're trusting one person to and this happens with a lot of different ⁓ what's the word demographic church like different demographics, different religions. Every religion, there we go. Yeah. Every religion in some form or fashion can it just takes one bad leader. It just takes one bad leader to ruin it for everybody. And most of the time people who are trying to be good leaders were trained by a bad leader. Audra Phelps: Denominate yeah. Kimberly: And it's so hard. It's so easy. It can happen like that. Like I see it all the time. We're like, this this church was so amazing. Then it changed and then all of a sudden. And isn't that kind of like how like specifically for my understanding of Mormonism is it's it's not even like one pastor. It cycles through, correct? Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think every five years you get a new bishop. Yeah. Kimberly: Which can be a good or bad thing. Can be a great. Audra Phelps: It can be a good or bad thing for sure. And you know, I think an ⁓ an interesting point is for me, it was like my relationship with God, my spirituality is very personal. And through my years of questioning, I I was able to kind of separate God. and the church. And I started to see more and more the church as a middleman. Like I had this relationship with God, but the church was there interpreting my relationship with God for me. And it was this external authority, you know, delivering the messages. And it and you know after a while it was like I I don't like this interpretation, you know, I this external authority over my life is telling me what to do, what to eat, what to drink, how to raise my kids, what to do on Sundays and Mondays and Wednesdays, and you know, really dictating every area of my life that I had completely lost who I was. But but you don't see it when you grow up in it because it's it's normal to you, right? It's what everyone's doing, it's what your family's doing, it's what you know in the way that the LDS church is is ⁓ structured the wards so which is like the the the time like the congregation that's what they call it is the ward you you are in the same ward as everyone in your neighborhood so it's geographical right and so you're also physically surrounded by everyone that you're going to church with so you don't always know that you're just following what you're being told and And so I like what you said about Jesus in the Bible. Like if you read the stories of Jesus in the Bible in their purity, I mean they're amazing messages about love and service and kindness, and they're very simple. And then in my opinion, religion and man and the leaders in the church come in and they complicate it. They they complicated and it's it's usually with an intention of control, control over the congregation. Kimberly: I can totally see that too. Honestly, when I heard that during the fall of Rome, that's when the Bible started actually like the they started creating the book, and I'm like, Did did Rome actually die? Did it actually fall? And we just used the Bible instead and we kinda like cherry picked, like we're not ready to get rid of these ideas that are not good. Audra Phelps: Ha ha. Right. Right. Yeah. Kimberly: And so 'cause you hear people even tr use the Bible to justify slavery and indoctrination in of itself too, be like, well, 'cause like even sometimes too, and I hope this isn't cross the line, where it's like I sometimes question 'cause like I love learning a different religion different perspective from other people from their religion. And someone was telling me they're like, ⁓ yeah, like Lucifer's job And from what we believe is Lucifer's job was coming here and he wanted to all make us perfect. And and then I was like, but I also know the Bible was interpreted in different language. And what if the God of the world, which is technically Lucifer, is sometimes in the old testament actually Lucifer not God? And we're sitting there justifying all this stuff, and it's like that was actually not God. But I could be wrong, and that's okay, just like For me, even if Jesus was just a man, just a regular old Joe man, he wasn't the son of God, I'm like, it doesn't take away what he did. It doesn't take away from me at all. And even and that's more 'cause like I always hear people try to do gotcha moments and I'm like, his message was still like I see how AA uses it, like can AA still be corrupted? Of course, anything when you go in a group can be corrupted. Audra Phelps: Right. Mm. Kimberly: And that's why it's important to understand the message. It's under it's important, like we're talking about having alignment with yourself and understanding right from wrong truly. And but AA, I was like, that's actually how I healed from my own trauma is like I read an AA book and I was like, I think I'm addicted to drama from all the chaos of growing up. Like I I need to work on this. Like, why am I why am starting stuff in my life? I don't understand. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Kimberly: So I think though, like no matter what, if we take from liter like being literal what Jesus taught, like there was nothing about he he never, in my opinion, and from what I've read, he never was saying like it's okay to just hurt people. Like he threw t he flipped tables, sure. But like he wasn't like and then ⁓ stabbed him. Like what do you mean? He threw a table. Like he yeah, he was upset. Like that's That's a normal human response when you're surrounded by corruption and you're trying to lead and they're just not getting it. Audra Phelps: Right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean religions can in interpret the Bible in lots of different ways and this is why I think it's really important to learn how to tune into yourself because most organized religion, especially high demand religions like the LDS Church, it's all about ⁓ believing the interpretation that they give you. You know, and also like I remember so many times as a kid being t like something didn't sit right with me, I don't like this and I was told, you know, ⁓ yeah you need to doubt your doubts. If you're having a doubt it's 'cause you don't have enough faith. You just need to read your scriptures more and you need to pray more often. And The Lord works in mysterious ways. Like all of these things that I used to hear was really just a way to get me to bury my own opinions and bury my own beliefs and just push it down. And then I was also told, you know, you need to make your will the Lord's will. Which was really the church's interpretation of the Lord's will, you know, because every religion has a different interpretation. And so it was like, Well I'm not if I don't have the exact same will as the Lord's will, then I I'm a sinner, I'm you know, I'm letting the carnal man come up, I need to bury the natural man. All these things that you're taught if you can zoom out and object Look at them, that was it was conditioning. It was it was a pattern in our brain that was constantly repeated over and over and over again to bury yourself, to bury your own energy, your own intuition, your own insights, your own beliefs to make everyone a monoculture. And what you know what why why would a religion want everyone to be a monoculture? Well, they're easier to control that way, you know? And it's also a A lot about obedience. There was so much pressure about obedience, you just need to obey. You don't need to understand, you just need to obey. So that goes back to your point about the critical thinking. Critical thinking was was really looked down on. I mean, they would never say that directly, but when you look at the indirect messages, the critical thinking and the questioning And the creativity really is is looked down on in many high demand religions. Kimberly: Honestly, I was the problem child in churches. I really was. I was that kid. But they were like the leaders all had my back when I was like getting upset with my peers. Cause I'm like, we literally just had a service about gossiping and you're talking you're talking so mean about so and so. Like we just heard that message. Like, can you be more can you what? And they'd be on my back, but then I'd call the leaders out too. They teach me something and I'm like, you just did that. Audra Phelps: So was I Hm. Kimberly: I didn't like it. I'm like, I'm sorry. I I don't like like if you're if you're being a hypocrite, I can't like people being hypocrites. I'm like, if you're honest about it, I'm like, okay, you're being honest. I'll move on. Whatever. But don't dare tell me when there's an elephant in the room that it's not there. I get weird about that. I'm like, but but it's right there. That's a giraffe. That is an elephant. Audra Phelps: Yeah. It's right there. Yeah, I mean I think that and the the a as a kid especially it's easier to kind of notice these things and point them out, you know, but as you get older and there's so much conditioning and, you know, especially in in the LDS church, they do a they do a lot to keep you in as you get older. You know, like they just reduce the age for girls to be able to go on a mission. So I mean when I was growing up it was boys went on a mission at nineteen, girls went on a mission at twenty one. And the the reasoning for that was that because girls prime pr primary role was purpose was to get married. And so if they weren't married by twenty one, which is so ridiculously young, but if they weren't married by twenty one, then a mission could be an option for them. Then they a few years ago they reduced it to men could go at 18 and ⁓ women could go at 19. And then recently they just reduced now women, so both boys and girls can go at 18. And when you if you really objectively think about that. It's like so they reduce the age for both to eighteen. Well, what does that do? That means a girl gets straight out of high school, she goes straight on a mission And when when I didn't serve a mission, but I know many people, including my husband, who served a mission, and there's a lot of talk when you go home, okay, now go find a wife, go find a wife, go find a wife, right? And so she goes on a mission right out of high school, then as soon as she gets ⁓ gets off of her mission, all she's thinking about is eternal marriage, getting married in the temple, finding her spouse. She's twenty years old at this point. And then If you know if she gets married at twenty, twenty-one, I was twenty when I got married, you're pretty locked in. You know, you're pretty locked in. Like I got married at twenty years old, and then at our wedding ceremony in the temple, I got married in the temple, and our wedding ceremony in the temple, as soon as they finished the ceremony, the officiator or sealer as they call it said Now multiply go forth and multiply and replenish the earth. You know, so it's like you get married and then the expectation is you have kids right away. And then y like You're really locked in. You're really locked in. And so so my point is like the older you get, the the more the conditioning is there, the more your lifestyle is there. And it you can't just make a choice to walk away. And even though you might be battling all of these doubts and there's something at church that's not sitting right, or maybe you're diving into church history and and it's really upsetting to you, or certain policies or doctrines, or whatever it may be that's not Sitting right, it's easier just to listen to fall back to what you've been told and to listen to the idea of I just I I need to have more faith. The Lord works in mysterious ways. I don't need to understand it to believe it, you know? And So it's it's really a courageous thing to look at it objectively and figure out what is working for you and what is not working for you and use those critical thinking skills. Because a lot of people in the church don't have practice with that. Kimberly: And I think a lot of shame too of like when you look back at your life and you realize it wasn't what you like, even I'm struggling with my own ⁓ my own issues of like I wanted my kids, but I'm like dissecting did I have my kids to get more love from my family to feel valued? Like it was kind of pressured in the church, but it was mostly pressured with my family. Audra Phelps: Mm. Kimberly: And so for me now I'm like, no, I wouldn't change it. But I'm still unpacking the how much of a pressure of being the perfect mom that my family, in my opinion, put on me to be that I was never going to achieve, as my therapist told me that I already failed because it wasn't the vision I wanted. So of course I'm gonna fail. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Kimberly: It was a projection of who they wanted me to be, or maybe even the church wants you to be. And it's not true who you are capable of being and who you want to be. It's not you don't have the capacity to be a certain way. You only have the capacity to be true to who you are. Audra Phelps: Yeah. There's a lot to unpack there. Yeah. and and thank you for sharing that because I think a lot of women feel that, but they're embarrassed to say I don't know if I should have had kids when I did, because then you you feel like that you feel like if you were to verbalize that, if you were to say that out loud to someone else, it somehow negates your love for your child. And those two things are completely exclusive of each other. They're completely exclusive of each other. Your love for your child is is non-negotiable. It has nothing to do with the decision to have them or at what age you decide. Kimberly: Absolutely. Audra Phelps: To have them, right? I mean, those are those are two separate things, but I think a lot of women start to feel this shame for feeling like I don't know if I really wanted to have so many kids or I don't know if I really sh you know, wanted to have a kid when I was twenty years old. That's totally okay to have those emotions and still two things can be true at once. That you still love your kids as well, even though you're you're what I call you're grieving a life unlived is really what it is. You're looking at these choices that you made when you were twenty to twenty-five years old or whatever age you got married and had kids. Kimberly: Mm. Audra Phelps: And that set the trajectory of your life. And your brain is not even fully developed until you're 25. Yet you're now, you know, married and having children and raising children, and you're not even fully developed and mature, and you don't have the emotional regulation that you're gonna have when you're older. And so a lot of women, I know so many women that I work with, including myself, you get to a point when you're you're Raising your kids, and you're in this life that was determined by choices you made when you were a different, immature, young 20-year-old. But yet you're in the life. You can't change the life you're in. Right, exactly. And so it can be, you feel really ungrounded. And it's like Kimberly: ⁓ yeah, they're still more impulsive. Audra Phelps: Okay, I'm in this life, but do I choose this life today? I chose this life when I was twenty when when maybe I didn't know that I had another choice. And but now I'm in it. And so it's really about looking back and looking at the good things that you can take moving forward and doing a deep dive, a deep dive into okay, I can make choices to change now. I'm I'm not stuck. Even though you might feel stuck, you're not stuck. And you can start doing some inventory on what it is that you want, and which can be a really difficult thing when a religion and family and society has been telling women that that really their primary role is to serve other people. And that so a lot of women come to me and they have this belief that they're responsible for everyone else's happiness. But they don't even know what makes them happy. because they've spent so many years serving other people. You know, I I often t I often tell the story Kimberly: Yeah. Audra Phelps: When I was in my early forties and I was making Thanksgiving dinner and ⁓ it was Thanksgiv yeah, it Thanksgiving, I was making dinner and I was making pie and I always make pie from scratch, so you know it's it's it's a little bit more complicated when you gotta make the dough than I before and da da da da da da. And I was making apple pie and it just hit me like I don't like apple pie. Why am I making apple pie? And then I just I'm like in the kitchen slicing up apples. Why am I making apple pie? Well, it's my husband's favorite, so I make apple pie every year. And I'm finding myself feeling resentful. And I'm like I'm all every year I make I make what everyone else wants. And it was like, well, what kind of pie do I even like? And I didn't know. Like it had been so many years of me serving other people, making sure their wants were met and their needs were met that I didn't even know what kind of pie I liked. Like it's such a simple example, but so then when you say to a woman, Well, what do you want? They're like, I don't know. I don't even know what I want for dinner. Are you kidding me? I'm gonna ask the kids what they want and we're gonna have that. Kimberly: Honestly, your pie example makes me laugh because my friend who is Mormon, she had that moment and I wrote she's I gotta make all these pies for Thanksgiving and Christmas and I gotta do all this stuff and it has to be homemade crust, Kim. And I'm like, Why? Like it's okay if you want if you make one pie, sure, you you make homemade crust, whatever, but you're making like twenty pies. Why just go buy the crust? Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: And I don't know if that is, like, is that a common thing in the Mormon church of like homemade pies culturally? Audra Phelps: I wouldn't say directly homemade pies, but I would say there's a pressure for perfectionism and doing it the best. You know, there was this many years ago, so there's general conference where all of the church leaders speak to all their members from Utah. And there was one talk several years ago about good, better, best and always go for the best. And so, especially as a mom, it was you could never just be good enough. You could never just do enough. It was like you need to shoot for the best. And so that Really sets this perfectionism mindset. And not so much in Idaho, because I lived in in Boise, Idaho for seven years, but and I grew up in California, but I I also live spent some time in Utah. Utah, especially, which is like the Mormon hub, right? I mean, if you look at ⁓ the plastic surgery rates, the cosmetic procedure rates, it's higher in Utah than in any other state. But then you also look at the percentage of women on antidepressants, and it's higher than any other state. And I think that speaks to that perfectionism mentality. So no, you're not told you have to make pie crust from scratch, but you're told that directly and indirectly through the messaging that you always have to be the best. And so it creates this constant comparison. And then you're constantly feeling unworthy, not good enough, not measuring up. So what am I gonna do? I'm gonna try and figure out how to change myself. And what does that lead to? That leads to depression, it leads to anxiety. And that was me when I was a young mom in Idaho, struggling with panic attacks, having severe anxiety, really depressed. And I couldn't figure out what it was because I was doing everything I was told to do. I was making the pie crust from scratch, I was going to church every Sunday. I was a stay-at-home mom even though I desperately wanted to work. Like I was doing I was checking all the boxes, but I was really struggling. In hindsight, I look back and that was my body screaming at me, you're in a life that is not your own. And it takes a lot of courage to see that. To because you're so in it and you're so surrounded by people who are also in it. That you you know, that's that's that idiom, yeah. Kimberly: Yeah. And you look like the crazy one if you say anything otherwise. Like, what do you mean? We all what do you mean? We all do this. Audra Phelps: We all do this, exactly. And and there's also the conditioning, this the sayings that that are constantly repeated to us as members of the church, like endure to the end. I used to use that quote myself, endure to the end. And then after I left, I stepped back and I was like, endure? What a horrible word. Like, so basically you're telling me that I have to endure life, that it's gonna be so horrible that I just gotta I just have to wait it out. What if I want my life to be full of happiness and joy, not endurance? You know? Kimberly: Yeah. You gotta rest at some point. Audra Phelps: You gotta rest at some point. And then so many LDS homes, including my own growing up, had this quote on the wall, a picture of Christ, and often there would be a quote underneath it that said, I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it. W Kimberly: Mm. Audra Phelps: And you know, I used to think that was such a great quote. But now looking back, it's like what is that telling me? That's telling me that my life is gonna be difficult and hard and full of sacrifice and b and burying myself essentially. Kimberly: Yeah. And like I don't remember Jesus saying in the Bible that we all had to go on the cross. And honestly, sometimes I'm like, Did Jesus even have to? Or was it just a representation that we weren't ready to fully heal as a culture? Like, can we hand like can we handle peace, love, and truth? That it's but I get that it's scary and I kinda wanted to and elaborate that with you, which is why it's so scary to leave. And I think it's because of this, and correct me then Audra Phelps: Yeah. Kimberly: Please give me your input. I think that it can be scary to leave a community because you become so vulnerable, you become so desperate at some points, not always. Sometimes people have like, for instance, I had my husband and I have some friends and I was able to leave a community that was bringing me down. But I had a foundation built beforehand. But when you don't have anything and you leave, you're most likely gonna go back because you have no safety net or Audra Phelps: Yeah. Kimberly: I've heard so many stories of people joining cults in the end because they're like, I hate this like specific religion and they go they just fully go to the other direction and it's ends up being a cult in the end. Audra Phelps: ⁓ that that's a very layered question. There's so many reasons why it's difficult. I th you hit on met you hit on many of them. dependency. You're really dependent on the church for everything, especially as a woman, because as a woman, you're told that your primary role is to be a nurturer, that your divine role is to be a wife and mother in heaven. And while it was never discouraged for me to go to university, I was often told that the purpose of me going to university was so that after I got married, if heaven forbid something happened to my husband, I would have something to fall. Back on. So it was never really about, you know, me seeking an independent career. It was more about like a safety plan. So you're very dependent on the church for a lot of things, for and then you're dependent on your husband. Usually, I know so many women who, you know, they've been stay-at-home moms, and then it's like they they wanna, they're really questioning things, but how How could they make a different choice? Because they're dependent on their husband. They can't be totally independent. They're dependent on the church. The church is more than just a religion, it's an entire life. Like you said, it's your community. You know, you live with the ward members. You all live in the same area. It's your social life. They're very good at fellowshipping. They're very good at creating a sense of community. And that you know, that can be a beautiful thing. Like when you move to a different location, you have an instant social circle. There are not very many people that are gonna have that. Based on where you live, you instantly know what you're gonna do and who you're gonna hang out with on Wednesdays and Saturdays, and whenever there's a church function, which is multiple times a week, right? So you have this community, you have instant friendship. But also, especially if you grow up in the church, your identity, which is the deepest subconscious layer. Which your identity informs your values, your identity informs your beliefs, your identity informs your behaviors and your thoughts. Your identity is given to you. Your definition of a good mom and a good wife and your role in this life is given to you from the time you're a child. And so when things aren't sitting right, it it shakes up who you are. And if you're starting to shake up who you are, it's really scary. And it's on it's honestly easier to stay in a predictable hell than to walk away and go through the work to figure out who you are, because that's scary. But if you can stay in a predictable pattern, even if you hate it. Kimberly: Yeah. Audra Phelps: You know, that's an easy ch easier choice. But if you are making the decision to walk away, you are completely shattering your identity as a person. You're completely shattering your purpose in this life. You are losing an entire community. Many people lose family members because their family members are still in the church. And you know, I think it's also interesting that you mentioned that, people might leave the Mormon religion and then join another organization that has cultish cultish tendencies. I see that a lot too because you're so used to being told how to do everything. That you and like we were talking about before, you you you don't realize but you don't really have those critical thinking skills. And so it's so much easier to go from the LDS church telling you what to do and how to be, to go to somebody else telling you what to do and how to be. Kimberly: Especially if you were never able to break the rules. Could you imagine a religion's like we don't have any rules, but they do Audra Phelps: Yeah. Right, right. And it's just it's really just trading One definition of an external authority to for to another. And the real work, which is the scary work, is act is turning inward. And so, I mean, that's a lot of the work that I do with women is being able to turn inward and go, you know what? The answers are within me. I don't have to ask a another church or another external authority or read a hundred self-help books or consult ten. Different friends about what choice I should make about XYZ. All of those answers are within me, but you've spent so many years pushing it down and burying it, you don't know how to listen to yourself. And so that's the scary part. Because if you if you can take an external authority's decision over your life and Kimberly: Mm. Audra Phelps: It kind of takes the responsibility off of yourself, right? It gives all the responsibility to that external authority. But when you can really tune into yourself, it's really empowering, but it's also scary because you're like, okay, well, now I'm also the only one responsible for where my life goes. And it's easier to just blame someone else. Kimberly: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Honestly, I kinda think of it as an example of like parenting where you want your kids, you wanna slowly build them autonomy, you wanna give them choices slowly that they can handle. 'Cause if you give too many choices when they're too little, like I have to relearn this with my second. She's only eight months old, but my second, I'm like, I'm just gonna put food in front of her and she doesn't have to finish it. She doesn't have to eat it all. But giving my oldest too many options has not created good change 'cause then she's like, I'm not gonna eat this even Even though she loves what I put in front of her anyway. She's just like, no, I have this thing in my mind and I want this and this is how it's gonna work. And it's it's because I gave her too many choices and a two she's too little. And so I kind of think of that too, where people are like, when they're promoting something that actually is good, but they kind of miss the message of my kid doesn't have to eat what's for dinner. We have safe foods, peanut butter and sandwich, ramen with frozen vegetables and some protein that they can just build something that they know I know they like. Even if they don't want Lasagna for dinner. But this idea I think sometimes people or really happens when we become an adult is, ⁓ what is that what am I gonna make for dinner? Or you you try to s you set up a kid for failure where that's like they get to dictate what everyone else eats for dinner. It's like that's also not healthy. Cause they're not the leaders of the family. They don't they don't know what their siblings like. They don't or they don't care or their par like their parents, but Or they're gonna just like, I just want mac and cheese and there's nothing wrong with mac and cheese and chicken nuggets, but where's the where's the vegetable? Where's the fiber? You know, they're not gonna think about that. And so when we give kids and we don't educate them first, similar to the tr like the church, it's like for me, it's more about I feel Audra Phelps: Right. Kimberly: That the reason why it's so hard to give up the church, and why everyone's like, because I have this happen all the time. They're like, Kimberly, are you gonna go back to church? Are you gonna go back to church? Are you gonna go like it's just on repeat? And I'm like, I haven't found one that's not about the world is ending. And I'm like, I'm not gonna go to one of those, and that's only the options I have around me. And so for me, it's like I get. Audra Phelps: ⁓ yeah. Yeah, right. Kimberly: though why people believe in church on Sundays because essentially you have a rest day. You know it's predictable. You know what's gonna happen. The only thing that changes is maybe the music, at least for like how mine's set up, at least the music might be a little different today. A couple songs, but we'll we always have like one or two that are on repeat for worship. And then so and so is gonna we we did Job, so now we're moving on to the next book or whatever. Like that Audra Phelps: Ha ha ha ha. Kimberly: That's nice. It's nice to have a rest day. It's nice to have predictability. It's nice to already have a rule book of this is how this day's gonna go. So I get why people don't wanna leave. And it's like at the same time I'm like, as long as it works for you, go for it. But if it's like slowly killing you, there's other options. You don't have to eat the lasagna. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I think like take stock of the emotion that you're feeling most of the time. If you're kind of stuck in negative emotions and frustration and I don't want to do this, this is an obligation and you're always looking at the negative side of things and a little bit of resentment, there's something there to look at because you may have been told to endure to the end and life isn't easy, but that's not true. That is not true. Life can be full of joy. Life can be full of positive emotions when you are living in alignment and listening to your body and listening to who you are and making choices that are 100% yours. It doesn't have to be miserable all the time. So if you're going through the motions because it's a predictable pattern, but you're really miserable and you're struggling with anxiety, and maybe you're a little depressed. And for me, I was having Massive panic attacks, there's a message there that you your your body is trying is screaming at you. Your body is screaming at you that something isn't right. There's a belief that you're following that isn't really yours. And life can be full of joy and happiness. And when I learned that, when I had the courage to walk away, And I had the courage to really dive into who am I and I learned how to listen to myself. I can't tell you how much more joy I experienced than I ever did before. I mean, I can find joy in anything. And I'm constantly looking for moments of happiness. I'm not sit I'm not stuck in obligation. I make decisions because I want to, not because I'm trying to please someone else. And you know, I still live in service and love and giving and kindness, but I do it from an aligned space, not because I feel like I have to in order for someone else to love me. Kimberly: And it's hard if that's all you've ever known. And I'm literally learning from I'm like actually like in better help better health right now using their services and I c I love it. I love it. And I was in I've been I'd been obsessed with this one teacher talking about codependency and she talked all the layers about it. Audra Phelps: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, I've done that. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Kimberly: And it was funny talk listening to one of my friends. She was venting and I was like, You that's codependency, right? Not her, but it's like her husband. I'm like, Yeah, like you nothing you can do is ever right. Like that's codependency. And you're not doing anything wrong. You're you just genuinely care about him, you love him, like that's codependency. It's like, Well, he's not doing well and he doesn't have much long to live and I'm like, I get it, but I'm just wanting you to know, like, you're not crazy Audra Phelps: Yeah. Kimberly: It's not about you at all. It's like he just no matter what you do, he's gonna complain because he's miserable. Cause there's like two type of people like have to kind of coexist in those kind of relationships or those dynamics. Someone who wants to serve and someone who wants to be served. But it's it's so wild. And speaking of what you're talking about with perfectionism and people pleasing, that also is codependency. And so Audra Phelps: Yeah. Kimberly: And then I learned another term about like s the psychology of entitlement is the reason why people can be so cruel to the people below them, like leadership and they don't they're like, Well, that's how you treat children or my grandchildren or I don't care that my kids and adult. I could treat ⁓ however they want. Is because they have their own suppress powerlessness and anger. And so Anytime they get triggered by their kid, because kids are gonna be kids. They're not gonna listen to you just because you told them so. They're they're gonna be wild things. And so it can be so infuriating. And if you struggle with all that suppress emotions, of course you're gonna be of course you're gonna come out like as a tyrant. Because now you can, now you have power. How dare you talk to me that way when in reality it's ⁓ the fact that you reacted. Audra Phelps: Yes. Kimberly: is why they talk to you that way. The fact that you're being a tyrant is why they're talking to you that way. Audra Phelps: Yeah, and if w one of one of the other signs that that that s something's not in alignment is being emotionally overreactive. And if you're finding yourself really quick to react to something and then regretting it later and emotionally overreactive, like a situation didn't really match the level of emotion that it gave you. Then that that's also a trauma response. And that that means you're just jumping to these well-worn patterns in your brain, but not really making a choice that's yours. It's that that conditioning is on repeat. And it's it's also that this is where where women need to get really good at observing their emotions and being able to say, okay, am I why am I feeling this emotion? And usually if your emotional Overreactive about something is because there's some kind of a belief that's out of alignment with you, and so you need to take a deep dive. But you know, I do a lot of work with women about nervous system regulation and emotional regulation and making decisions from a place of peace. So before you emotionally overreact, like pause, pause and start asking yourself some really simple questions because. Many times when you're in a life that's not aligned and you're anxious and you're depressed, you're making decisions you're and you're choosing behaviors like emotional reactivity from a place of anger or frustration or doubt or worry, and then you're not gonna make a choice that's really the best choice for you and your family. So being able to recognize the emotion, where is it coming from, and how can I choose a better emotion before I respond. So it's the difference between reacting and responding. Right? The reacting is the the well-worn pattern in your brain that's there. The response is what is the choice that feels aligned to me that I'm going to make in this moment. And there are very few situations, very few situations where you have to respond quickly. Most of the time you can give it some wait time before you respond. Thank you. Kimberly: Mm. ⁓ absolutely. No, I was even thinking about what you were saying about how that that resonates so true. Like skills that I learned was never say yes over the phone when you're like talking over the phone. Try to or in person. ⁓ give yourself a moment with emails and text messages. I mean, unless it's like nothing that bothers you, if it's just like, How you doing? ⁓ good or Audra Phelps: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I always say, like pay attention when something comes up or someone asks you a question or someone wants you to do something. Kimberly: You know. ⁓ and Audra Phelps: Pay attention, there's two feelings to pay attention to. Constrictive, like does it feel like it to does your body instantly kind of tighten up? Is there like a a lump in your throat? Like you can't really get a deep breath. That that's telling you that there's there's something not aligned here, and it's probably a no, even though your conditioning is going to tell you to say yes for people pleasing purposes. But what you want to get to is you you you want to pay attention. Feel expansive? Does it feel open? Does it feel light? Does it feel like you can just take a really deep breath? Well, then that tells you that that decision is aligned, and that's a yes, right? And so really paying attention to how things feel in your body is the first step to knowing if your answer is a yes or a no, if it aligns with you or doesn't align with you. Because most of the time we've been so conditioned as women and as moms to just Yes, okay, sure, I'll do it. I'll I'll make that, you know, I'll bring that casserole, or I'll show up for the, you know, parent night with a hundred cookies or whatever. But really, it's like you feel really constrictive as you're saying it because you're like, I really don't want to do that. And then as you're doing it, you're gonna be resentful, you're gonna be angry, you're gonna be and this is where the anxiety starts to set in because you're saying yes when your body said no. Kimberly: love that 'cause like yeah you're you're hitting the physical responses so once you've mastered that you can go to the next one of does this feel like something I want to do or does this feel something I have to do? And sometimes we do have to do things like, you know, we have to take care of our kids. But sometimes we don't want to have to go do ten million things that our kid wants to do in a day and also we don't have time to do it all. Audra Phelps: Yes. Yes. Right. Right. That's so true. And like a lot of it also is going back to that identity piece, is the definition that you were given of what a good person is or what a good wife is or what a good mom is. That definition was was given to you. And so you're you're living to a standard and expectation that's someone else's expectation of you. And so what I what I do with a lot of women is we dive into discovering what they Think a good mom is because it's not my definition of a good mom, it's their definition of what a good mom is, and that definition of yours. One of the ones I hear a lot is a good mom sacrifices herself for her kids. But when you really dive deep and you start asking some questions, most women are actually really resentful of that definition. And they they realize that they have lost themselves, they've sacrificed themselves, and there's not there's not a balance there, right? You can absolutely serve your kids without losing who you are. So we dive, we dive a little bit deeper and we start asking really good questions. So good questioning and journaling is really, really powerful as women are moving through this, and it helps to kind of find the guilt and shame that's attached to it. So So we ask a series of questions to kind of poke holes in the belief. And the first thing I I always ask is, well, when did you decide that? When did you decide that a definition of a good mom was that she sacrifices for her kids? When did you decide that? And that that question often, you know, gets a you know, you kind of see their heads go back like, ⁓ I d I don't know and I think I've just always had that definition and and then I ask, Who did you get that definition from? Because it didn't come from them and usually it's like Kimberly: I know. Audra Phelps: ⁓ from church or ⁓ from watching my mother sacrifice or you know, if they've gotten it from an outside source. And then as we start poking holes I ask, like, do you do you do you think that's always true? Is there ever a time that that's not true? Kimberly: Yeah. Audra Phelps: And and then it's like, okay, okay, now we're getting somewhere. Okay, so if that if that belief of a good mom sacrifices herself for her kids, if we just poked holes in it and it's not always true, and there's definitely some times when it's not true, then what do you want to believe instead? What belief related to a mother serving her kids is going to feel expansive for you? And so that's yeah, right? And and so it's like sit and like spend some time with that. Spend some time in a journal and a quiet space and just let your thoughts come out with that and any of those beliefs, those definitions, because those definitions go down to your identity. And that's where you can s uncover it. Kimberly: I resonate with that a lot. And I love and I love that women like you are coming out and helping like other w moms and just saying, Hey, 'cause I'm I have an eight month old and a three ⁓ three year old. And so for me, it's like I hear all these stories and I'm like I I had a similar story with my firstborn. I had all these expectations. I and it's a specifically like the trad wife trend. Like trad wife trend and then Audra Phelps: Mm ⁓ yeah, yeah. Kimberly: Breast is best. Trent was when I had my first. And ⁓ I was supposed to do everything, but I was also like the br I'm the breadwinner in my f like with between me and my husband. And so I'm like, but I have to go back to work 'cause like my income is like three times his. And it's so there's like all this pressure. I'm trying to be a good wife. I'm trying to fit all these boxes, but they don't fit me. And it's funny because a lot of Audra Phelps: Right. Kimberly: jobs that should be the mother's job. My husband loves doing. He loves the routine. He loves like doing all these things. He just needs help not being passive. Cause I'm a behavior therapist. So I'm like I'm very assertive, but I also can compromise. I can s like I my job is to see needs being like the needs being needed. And I love though too sorry real quick. I love that like we're being trained now Not to just be like, this is the way like the rigidity that it used to be with behavior therapy and ABA. Instead, we're like, you need to see the child before you see the behavior. You'll understand the behavior once you see the child. And I feel like that is so true. Instead of connection instead of attention seeking, I'm like, it's connection seeking. Instead of like ⁓ access, they're expressing a need not being met. So I'm like, there's just Audra Phelps: Right. Right. Yeah. Kimberly: I just love the change that's happening in that field and I'm glad to be part of it. Anyway, but my point is is this, it's sometimes things work for you and s and then and it's wild when I talk to my girlfriends when I had the dude moment of I remember looking at my husband 'cause he 'cause my I had really bad postpartum the first time. So the second time we really had a serious conversation. I'm like, I don't think I can wake up doing the night feeds And so he did and I looked over at him and I said Wow, the baby slept through the night. He's like, Are you kidding me? She woke up four times. I'm like, Well, I'm recovering hard from that C-section. I was out. Audra Phelps: ⁓ you know, I mean you brought you brought up a lot about you know, the ex expected roles, you know, especially I mean in society as well, but especially in religion, these these expected gender roles. And you know, I remember when I was struggling with anxiety and depression and I knew I wanted to work and but my husband, you know, was working full time. But he was honestly better with the kids than I was. And I mean he grew up in a huge family with ten kids, so he like, you know, cooking and clean Cleaning and taking care of kids was no big deal for him. And he just did it so naturally. And I remember feeling like, why don't we switch? Why doesn't he stay home and then I go to work? And I remember bringing that up to church leaders. And I mean, they looked at me like I asked if I could cut off my arm. They were like, no. You are a woman. Your divine role is the nurturer and to be in the home. And his role as a man is to earn the money. And it was and I was like I was quickly put in my place. I was quickly put in my place. Yeah. But then at the same time, because I was the stay-at-home mom and my husband was a teacher and we were living in Idaho and didn't make any hardly any money. Kimberly: My goodness. Yeah. Rejection. Audra Phelps: As a teacher in Idaho, as you know, we were struggling financially. We were really struggling financially, but I was doing what I was told to to do. and we had to go to the church for financial assistance because we could not make ends meet. We had three kids. I was being the righteous mom. My husband was working as a teacher, we couldn't make ends meet. And the Kimberly: This is true. Yeah. Audra Phelps: You know, I was grateful to the church. They did support us for a few months, but there was there was one experience where I so the church has what's called a bishop's storehouse, which is like a grocery store, but you have to Basically the Release Society president who's the head of like the woman's organization of the church comes to your house and like goes through your kitchen for you and makes a list of the items that you need. So I didn't even have my own autonomy or independence to choose what my family needed for f and it was just food. Like it's not like I was, you know, getting anything extra. And so she goes through the kitchen and makes the the checklist of what I need and you know, going back to dependency, like I just was like so d yeah, it's a thing. Kimberly: That's crazy. I didn't that was a thing. Audra Phelps: definitely thing. And so I was just like I just I felt so small. I felt so small. I I was doing everything they told me to do, yet it I w still wasn't good enough. Kimberly: Wow. Audra Phelps: And so un so unworthy. And so she we had this done several times. She comes to my house, she gives me the checklist and then, you know, gives it to me. And then you go to the bishop's storehouse and there's there's a ⁓ usually a missionary couple who's there and like that's their volunteer job is to run this storehouse, which is like a little grocery store just for poor Mormons. Kimberly: Feel that. Audra Phelps: And so like I show up at the and I have my three kids. We have this old station wagon, we pile pile the kids in. I go to this bishop's storehouse and I give them the checklist. And I'm already humiliated and feeling so small, like I can't even feed my kids, but I'm doing everything you're telling me to do. And she said, You're missing the bishop's signature. And I was like, ⁓ I so you know, s it got lost in the shuffle of the paperwork with the Relief Study President. I thought the Relief Study President got the signature from the bishop, blah blah blah. I said, ⁓ I'm I'm sorry. I I thought that I thought it had everything it needed. Can I s you know, can you just make a phone call? And she was like, No, you're gonna have to go get the signature and come back. And like I was there with three kids, like already feeling humiliated. And Okay, like I suddenly was just on the you know fe feeling like I was just dirt on the floor. And so I just I went back to the car and I get the kids all buckled into their car seats and I sat in the car and I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed like and what that did for me was That was the moment where I said to myself, I am no longer gonna be dependent on anyone else to take care of me. They might be telling me that I need to be a stay-at-home mom, but I'm gonna make a different choice. And I'm gonna do what I need to do to not be dependent. I'm gonna find some independence. So I went back to school. That was where I made the decision to go back to school and find something for me. And so I I wasn't quite at the like I knew that I could do something different. Like I was like, okay, I I'm gonna make the decision to not be a hundred percent stay at home mom. I'm gonna go back to school and I'm gonna I'm gonna start a career because I don't wanna be dependent on someone else anymore. But I wasn't quite ready to make a fully aligned choice on my career. And so I chose, yeah, so I I chose to take a career, but I was still I still had that conditioning of like, you know, kids first, kids first, what does the family want? So I chose to be a teacher. So I went back to school to be a teacher. Why? Because it's the most benign job a Mormon mom can have. I have the same schedule as my kids, they wouldn't have to go into daycare. So I made a career choice. Kimberly: That's fair. Audra Phelps: Choice that was based on the Mormon conditioning and what was best for my husband and family, not a career choice that was really based on me. So it was kind of like these baby steps towards really taking ownership of myself again. Kimberly: Awesome. And I'm assuming though it kind of all translated into what you're wanting, like what you're doing now as coaching. That's awesome. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so I then after I graduated from school w I taught in Nampa, Idaho for a while and then my husband and I found out about the international school ring and ⁓ We moved overseas. So we took our kids at ages seven, nine, and eleven, and we moved to a different country. And that was amazing for so many reasons. But one of the reasons is that that physical separation from the church, from the ward, allowed me to see it with a bird's eye view. And it was like I could clear the clutter in my head because I had that physical separation from it. And so then our years of in international education and I'm teaching and I'm I'm not really that happy in my job. And so I thought, okay I'll move into administration, like I knew I had leadership skills and I knew that there were some changes, like positive changes that I could make and I thought I could have more of an impact as an administrator on, you know, students and the the school community. So I went into administration and now I'm the director of an international school, but I'm still feeling like something's something's not right here, right? Like something's not quite aligned and I'm not really that happy. And so I was Kimberly: Yeah. Audra Phelps: talking to my own I had my own coach who was helping me work through a lot of these big questions and I said you know I love coaching students. I love it when the students come into my room and they kind of download right and I love coaching parents because parents were often coming into my office talking about you know parenting and how do I deal with this situation. Like those are the parts of my job that I loved. And she said to me what dema demographic do you want to work with? And I said, ⁓ I'm not Really sure. And she said, What what about working with other moms who left the LDS church? And like as soon as she said that, I was like, Yes, yes, yes. And I just like burst into tears. That's it. That's what I want to do. Because I know what that feels like. I know how jarring it is. It's like having the rug of certainty ripped out from under your life when you leave. And I want to help other women go through that process to know that they don't have to stay in that feeling of loss and grief and guilt, that they can move towards towards a better feeling emotion. So now I'm like my my career feels aligned, it feels excited, it feels totally mine, you know, and and that's it, that's the difference. That's the difference that I didn't even know I was missing before. Yeah. Kimberly: Mm-hmm. And I love like you really inspired me too, because I'm all new to this podcasting, but something I've always wanted to do. I've wanted to do it before I even had my first child. And it was actually like my two friends, they started their own and they're like, Yeah, it's not our thing. But the fact that they did it inspired me 'cause I was like, if they can do it, maybe I can too And then now it's become my fixation. And now I started a blog because I like, dang, I should have started the blog first because then I would have all this material Audra Phelps: Yeah. That's okay. That's okay. Step by step you just you follow the joy. What is it what is it that feels good? What is it that feels easy? What is it that feels exciting? You follow that instead of the expectation. Kimberly: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ absolutely. Well, 'cause I always was that kid that I was like, why can't we I like, I don't know if you think no bean girls, the TV show, like you don't even go here. I just want everyone to get along. Like that's me. And I was I remember even talking to one of my parents, being like, I think both political parties have their points and I wish they would work together, like, no, only one one to rule them all essentially. And I'm like, That's weird. No Audra Phelps: Ha ha ha. You know, that's that's that's ⁓ that's a very common response, you know. The world, especially in religion, but the world in general is very dichotomous. And what I mean by that is like right versus wrong, good versus bad, me versus you. But what I have learned in especially in my years overseas and Meeting so many different people from so many different religions and different cultures and different countries is that there's not one right way to do things. There's eight billion people on the planet, so why can't there be eight billion different right ways? Why does it have to be right versus wrong and us versus them? And I love that diversity and that individuality in that. Like I can have a conversation with someone of a totally different faith than mine. And it's not about trying to prove them wrong and prove myself right. It's just about a mutual understanding and curiosity. Kimberly: I know. Audra Phelps: You know, I I love thinking I'm just gonna be curious, not judgmental. And that's an approach that is has really changed like my energy. If I approach things with curiosity instead of being judgmental, it's it's an open connection now and you can really start to see the similarities between people instead of just focusing on what makes us different. Kimberly: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ absolutely. I was actually thinking when you were talking about how the curiosity, it's like I think the reason why there's a lot of women struggling is because there are a lot of women that like curiosity. And then there's there are women that like rigidity and it works for them. And I'm like, you do you, queen. You do what works for you. Cause and I think that's the nice part, and I think that's where we have commonality of when you heal. Audra Phelps: Right. Right. Kimberly: And you look at other people and they're making choices that I'm like, this would doesn't align with me. You don't look at them with judgment in the sense of I know better. You look at them with judgment in the sense of that's not good for me. That doesn't coexide the direction or that doesn't what's the word? ⁓ that doesn't align with who I want to be. It's not congruent. There you go, that's the word I'm looking for. It's not congruent to who I'm trying to become. But I love that for you. It seems to be making you happy. Audra Phelps: Right. Right. Yes, yes, and that is such a powerful place to be in. It's really hard when you leave the church and you have family who are still in and you're still feeling the hurt and the pain from leaving and you have the grief of maybe losing some family members and you it's easy to put a lot of blame. But as you go through the work of healing and emotional regulation and really aligning with who you are. It's so freeing to st then be able to have a conversation with a family member or someone and they're talking about their belief in the church. And instead of feeling immediately triggered, you can you can really have this this sense of respect and I love that that brings you joy. I'm happy for you that this is where you find meaning, but you can have that separation. It doesn't have to affect you, right? And that that's that's a it's a difficult place to get to, especially with close family relationships. and especially if you're not getting that same feeling back at you. If it's not mutual, but that's where boundaries come in. You know, you need to be really secure in your boundaries. But in order to be secure in your boundaries, you have to be secure in yourself first. Kimberly: Mm-hmm. Yeah. If it's not mutual for sure. ⁓ absolutely. I know it's hard because even speaking of boundaries when you're dealing with family, I think just hopefully it helps people ⁓ that sometimes you kind of know their rigidity and that they haven't changed. Like one of my family members told me all these nasty things. So I recently got diagnosed with autism and I'm like, ⁓ I'm free. I don't have to beat myself up anymore. It sucks because you hear people being like, but you're high functioning, right? And I'm like, that doesn't change the fact that I'm struggling with loud noises and I want to cry after hangouts, not because I didn't have fun, but because like I was my sen my nervous system, like it's essentially I was watching this dog today limping on one leg and they're just treating him like the all the other dogs. It's like one, yes, I want to be treated like all the others people, but like can you acknowledge the fact I have one leg missing and I'm working extra hard and that's okay and I'm okay with it. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: But let me take it at my pace. Please do not rush me, kind of energy. And ⁓ but yeah, they told me I doctor shopped to get it. And I was just like, ⁓ okay. And yeah, my my they also call my podcast stupid and I was like and this the reason I bring this up is because the same person who said it wished they could have been a doctor. And I'm like, Why don't you? But my question is more like, it's too late. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: I'm like, why is it too late? If it's something you really want to do, I don't understand why you don't just do it. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Just do it. You know, we have this saying in NLP, which is the type of coaching that I've been trained in. ⁓ perception is projection. So like thinking about that person that said those things to you. There's something in them first that they're projecting onto you. Like you just said they wanted to be a doctor. And so they're projecting their disappointment in themselves. onto you. So in in order to see something in someone else, it has to be in us first. It has to be in us first. And also other people's opinions of you are none of your business. They're one of the hardest things Kimberly: Absolutely. Audra Phelps: You know, and I still I still struggle with this many times is ⁓ I cannot control someone else's beliefs. I cannot con Yeah. Kimberly: And honestly, I love being in that place. Like even if my friends like so and so said something, I'm like, Don't tell me. Thank you for I trust you. I know who you are. I needed to know this so I didn't feel like I didn't have this illusion of safety. Thank you. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But like they're gonna put it down for whatever reason 'cause they feel like they have to, you know, spew their negative energy onto you. But you don't have to pick it up. You can observe without engagement. Yeah. Kimberly: Mm. Absolutely. I know. But it's still hard when you're processing it with family. And that's why I really love what you're doing 'cause I think that's gonna be the hardest that is the hardest thing to detangle. I don't even think it's the church itself. I think it's the family aspect of it. 'Cause it could be parents losing their children and it could be parents losing their gr like or the people losing their grandparents or their own parents or their cousins or uncles and aunts, like the family aspect I think. Audra Phelps: Yes. Kimberly: is like the hardest part when leading leaving any community. Audra Phelps: It is. It is the hardest part, especially with parents. You know, when you're when you're born, your parents, that's your very first relationship. It's It's primal. And so your whole life, even as an adult, you're kind of constantly navigating around your parents' opinion of you. And you're kind of measuring yourself to that opinion that they have of you. And so it can be it can be really ungrounding when you realize that that opinion has changed and it's not what you want it to be, because you are you are seeing Seeking approval from that very first deepest relationship that you've ever had. So there's a lot of healing work that needs to be done, especially around family. ⁓ And that's a lifelong process. It's not like something you can journal one morning and then suddenly you're unbothered by their opinion of you. Right? That's something that takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of specific strategies. It takes a lot of commitment from yourself to to really pay attention to how you're feeling, to put up boundaries, to be willing to walk away, to be really willing to release the obligation that you feel towards your family. You know, if a relationship is really toxic, it's okay to step away from it. You're not obligated to have them in your life just because you came from them. Now I think that's that's like a last resort type thing. I think there's a lot of things that could be done to maintain still a relationship, even if even though the relationship might not be what you really want it to be. Kimberly: Absolutely. One of the things I wanted to add too, 'cause I was like, I think you should write a book, by the way. Navigating, detaching. Like or whatever you want to call it. But I think you would like you have such a great perspective, such a fascinating take. And you inspired me from the interviews that I listened to the reevaluate a lot of things. Do things like like girl dinner more so. Like I still try to support my husband, but I'm like I mean him have a conversation. I was like, you know I don't always want a meal. I sometimes just want a charcuterie board. And if anything, to help my own PCOS health journey, I'm like, I kind of need to do things a little different than you need to do things. Like our needs are totally different. But yeah, like, should we have meals? Sure. But sometimes I'm like, I'm just not that hungry. I'm not hungry like you are, like, or the hungry man dinners. Essentially. Like, I don't I don't need that as much. But one of the things that Audra Phelps: Hmm. Kimberly: You were s ⁓ gosh, I lost my balloon. Sorry, it's like my ADHD term of like my balloon is lost. There was a point to it. But yeah, no, I really think you should write a book because Yeah. You you're such a fascinating person. Audra Phelps: Ha ha. ⁓ thank you. You're kind. ⁓ well, I appreciate you and creating space for people to tell stories and to share those vulnerable Kimberly: I mean it. Audra Phelps: thoughts and questions that many women keep to themselves because they're embarrassed of the judgment that they might get from someone else if they share it or they think it means something different than it really does. And s yeah. Yeah, it's important. Kimberly: ⁓ yeah. Cause one of the things that you were talking about really helped me detangle. I think I found my balloon. Helped me detangle is I do want to be a mom, but how I was doing motherhood is what I was grieving. I was grieving my own motherhood because it wasn't aligned to how I want to be a mom. 'Cause I d I genuinely enjoy my kids. I genuinely just I'm just I've always been that person. I'm like, I didn't want to go to my own graduation. It's so boring. But I'll do it for my kids. ⁓ it's essentially like I didn't want to be like again, the hundred cookies. Like, no, I'll get all the ingredients, I'll find the recipe. Huh, hubby, you can you go make the hundred cookies? He's like, as long as I can be by myself, I will make them. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah. There you go. There you go. You ha you find what works for you. It doesn't have to be what someone tells you it should be. Yeah. Kimberly: ⁓ absolutely. And I wanted to 'cause I realized we totally like was like, wow, I had so natural questions, but I do have the questions we still have to go through. If you're okay with that. ⁓ I think we did the first one or no. When was the moment though you realized something in your life wasn't sustainable anymore? Like when 'cause I think you hid it though when you went to the ⁓ I'm gonna call it the food bank 'cause I can't remember the name if that's okay. The food bank essentially for the Mormon church. And Audra Phelps: Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kimberly: Was that the moment you were like, Nope, I can't do this no more. Audra Phelps: No, there was a lot of little moments that were a slow erosion for me. You know, it was ten years of me questioning and ten years of me being uncomfortable, but pushing it down and pushing it down and pushing it down. That moment at the Bishop's storehouse or food bank, That was a moment I knew I was gonna do something other than what I was being told to do. And so that was kind of the first step in me discovering myself. And then when I went back to school, it was like I found this whole group of friends that it was just a real genuine connection that I and then I realized that my friends at church, it didn't feel the same. It felt very superficial and like I always had to put on a certain face and I couldn't be vulnerable at church. But then I had these friends at school and we had the same interests and we were I you know I was a biology education teacher, so I was in all these science classes with with all these different friends groups and we had this connection about something other than religion and it was just open and honest and I felt like I could really be myself. You know, and then Then we moved overseas, and I started really opening my eyes to the variety of different religions and cultures, and I would I was having these experiences. We were traveling with our kids, and I would go to like Hindu temples in India and see these dedicated people, and I was like, wait a second, this is confusing because I was always taught that Mormons were the most dedicated. That we had the one true belief that no one was as convicted as we were. But these people are really convicted in their faith. And I would go to, you know, like a Muslim mosque or a Catholic cathedral or a fire temple from the Zoroastrians, and it would feel spiritual to me. And it so it was this contradiction from what I was told where you where the the Mormon church kind of had the monopoly on spirituality and but these places still felt spiritual to me. They didn't feel like these devil worship places, you know, and and so so I those experiences of traveling gave me this objective view. And I was meeting so many different people and realizing that there's a beauty in a in a diverse way of doing life, that there wasn't just one right way, one true way to do something, right? And but so that all of those different experiences kind of added up to me being able to step back and now I'm independent, now I'm working and I have a job and I have a lot of successes and I'm feeling like I'm starting to find my own person. So that then it was November 2015, the church came out with this statement that children of gay parents would be considered apostates and would not be able to receive the full blessings of the church. And because I had already been making these steps towards finding myself in independence, and I was already questioning, and I had this bird's eye view, the moment they came out with that statement, my body, I had this full-body reaction of like, this is not right. This is based in hate, and I am not okay with this. So in in that moment then it was kind it was this this culmination. It was you know the straw that broke the camel's back. It was like I, because of all my other experiences building up to this, in that moment, instantly I knew I'm done. And I remember walking upstairs and taking my garments off, which were the special Mormon underwear that you get when you go through the temple. Took my garments off and I looked at myself in the mirror and I said, I am not Mormon. And like so that was it. But it was a ten year buildup for me to be able to then take that policy doctrine that the church came out with, immediately see it for what it was, and then have the courage to say, I'm done. Kimberly: Yeah, I can relate to that of just being like, I'm not gonna sign up to hurting people and doing cruelty mm or isolating people because they're different. Audra Phelps: Right. Yeah. No. It it's pu it was purely based in hate. Yeah. Kimberly: ⁓ yeah. I totally agree when people are like, hey, in a community these certain behaviors aren't okay, but when you just villainize a person for just just being different, I'm like, where in the where in Jesus' messages did he say that? Where did he say like not just he talked about behavior. He never talked about people being different. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Right, right. But it was very much in the Mormon culture fitting the cookie cutter. And I never fit the cookie cutter. I tried. I tried to fit the cookie cutter. It's so hard. It's so hard. ⁓ yeah, I watched that show. Yeah. Kimberly: Yeah. Isn't that so hard? Did you ever watch Game of Thrones? I was so mad. But then when I was going through my like, I would call it like the hero story where you're like trying to find yourself, create alignment. I remember looking back at the Daenerys at the final season and being like, you know, I get why she burned everything to the ground because everyone told her, Do it this way, don't be like your dad, do it this way. And she goes in and how quickly she got everything she needed. Audra Phelps: Ha ha ha ha. Kimberly: I'm like, I get why she went psycho. I get it. I had that moment. Like, I didn't hurt people, but I wanted to. Cause I'm like, Are you kidding me? This isn't how things are supposed to be. So and I think you get that choice. You either you could be like Daenerys and you can hurt people, or you can go back, reflect, and realize that sometimes people were putting expectations and pressure on you that was Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly: them trying to make sense of their world had nothing to do with you. Cause they weren't dragon masters. I don't get it. All right. And the next question is what beliefs did you inherit that took years to unlearn? And I think you kind of hit that, but like what what is one specific, like just rule that like maybe it could be the garments if you want to elaborate on that? Like why was the garments so what's the word? Audra Phelps: Ha ha ha Kimberly: So impactful. Like that was the final like I'm done moment. Audra Phelps: ⁓ that's a good question. You know, in the In the faith, ⁓ the temple like ⁓ like ⁓ the goal. ⁓ Like you to ⁓ If you can if you go to the temple, you get married in the temple, but then before you even get married in the temple, you go through a ceremony called the endowment ceremony, where you make certain covenants with God. And those covenants that you make with God are supposed to be like, you know, the top most powerful covenants that need to be done in this life in order for you to go to the celestial kingdom, which is like the top layer of heaven for Mormons. And so it's a big deal. it's a big deal. So when you go through for yourself And you go through this endowment ceremony, you're given these garments. And the garments represent the covenants that you made in the temple. And they're supposed to be worn all the time to remind you of your covenants, but also to keep you modest, because well, in the time, the church just changed this now, but ⁓ at the time they were like short sleeves and they would go down to your knee. And so it would keep you modest, but it would also it was a reminder of your covenants to God. and so and they're uncomfortable. They're uncomfortable and they're hot. You know, and so you're wearing them underneath your clothes, but you're constantly re it's constantly there, you know. It's like that's like that endure to the end thing, but they're they're always there and you're always annoyed by ⁓ and you're always sweating in ⁓ but but they're reminding you of your sacrifice for got to God. And You're also instructed to wear them day and night. That you need to always wear them except for, you know, exercise and things like that, you're allowed to take them off. But you should put them immediately back on. Like it's really shameful if you take them off because then you're breaking your covenants to God. And so That for me was a represent like a physical representation of I'm leaving. Because even though I had had 10 years of questioning and I had had this slow erosion, the conditioning of if I take these off, I'm going to hell. If I take these off, I won't go to heaven. If I take these off, I'm no longer, I'm breaking my covenants and I don't have eternal salvation and I'm destroying my family. That was the deep-seated belief that I had related to those garments. So it until I was a hundred percent, I do not believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Until I could say that with a hundred percent certainty, I couldn't take those garments off. So Kimberly: must have both been a horrifying but also liberating moment. It's like, ⁓ Well it's too late now kind of energy. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah, it was like I I took them off. Exactly. I took them off. I felt liberated. I felt empowered. But then it was like, what now? Okay, I know what I'm not. I know that I don't believe the what those garments represent. I know I don't believe that. But then what do I believe? And ⁓ my gosh, my kids are nine, eleven, and thirteen. I've raised them in this church. Like, you know, I I just I just destroyed their moral compass. That's how it felt. That's absolutely not what happened, but that's how it felt. And like how am I gonna how am I gonna guide my kids when I don't even know how to guide myself? Kimberly: Mm. No, I actually was hacking to ask you another question about that. Like I feel I feel so much compassion. So much compassion for people. Like because at least I think the church, at least for me, was a little bit easier because my family was the church in the essence of we never abandon each other, we have each other's back. But I'm like, but we're awful to each other. Like Audra Phelps: Mm. Kimberly: I only get what I want if we're awful to each other. So I can imagine of being in a church and you're told if you just do these things, you're gonna go to heaven. And then being asked, Well, how would you feel for all the things you're doing right now if none of that was true? Can you still stand by it? And I think in my heart breaks for people. I think a lot of people wouldn't either they would just fully reject it, which I get it. I'm like, if you need to reject it to protect yourself respectfully, I agree. Cause if you're gonna if you're gonna explore something and you and you don't have the foundations to even handle it, your mind's not going to want to dive into that. It's gonna see that as scary. And I understand in my own I remember when my counselor told me, Your family doesn't sound very safe for you, Kimberly, and I'm like, What do you mean? Audra Phelps: Mm. Kimberly: Like all the things you're telling me that they're doing and you don't really have autonomy. Like that that's not that sounds like really hard. And so it opened the door, but I wasn't ready to go through it. And so I just imagine all these people who they have a reason. Like for me, if someone told me, like, well, what if Jesus was a person? I'm like, and not a the son of God, I'm like, I'd still I still love me some Jesus. But with other people ⁓ I could see why they get so of defensive. So defensive. And so understanding that for yourself in your own journey, what do you try to do to help soften that journey for other people through coaching? Audra Phelps: Yeah. Soft on the journey with their family. Kimberly: No, their faith. Audra Phelps: ⁓ with their faith. You know, we talk a lot about big existential questions and there's a lot of fear Of uncertainty because the the church gives you a lot of certainty. Gives you certainty on a path, where you're going, what to believe, what the afterlife is going to look like. The church gives you a lot of certainty. And so we work through that fear. Where is that fear coming from? And we start to become comfortable with not knowing. It's okay to not know. It's okay to not know. It's okay to wonder. It's also okay to come up. With a different idea of the purpose of life that's different than what someone else has given you. Right? And and I often ⁓ I often tell people, you know, follow the joy. What feels good? What feels good to you? And this life doesn't have to be about earning a reward in heaven. Why can't you have the reward now? And so th there's there's a lot of deep dives into just following what feels good and really, you know, playing with different beliefs. And it's okay to change your mind, you know, it's okay to have one belief one day and then learn something different and change your mind. But what is it that you want to do? Getting really clear on what you want to do and who you are, so that as you move forward and you you Realize that you don't have to have all the answers and that it can be something that you that is an open conversation and dialogue with your family members and with your kids and there's not one right way. Kimberly: Absolutely. I love that. I love how many times you say there's these many people. There's so many different ways things can go. And I'm like, I love that line. I hope you post it. and I wanted to add to what you were saying. Yeah, I often think that sometimes heaven and hell or even purgatory is the life we live. You can have a life that feels like heaven and you can create a life that feels like hell. Audra Phelps: Yeah. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Right, right, right. Why why go through all this torture for some reward in heaven when you can live a rewarding life now? Why why focus on what may or may not be next? When you could have a beautiful, joyful life now, not full of someone else's expectations and then resentment and frustration. Kimberly: And it's hard though, especially if you're if you had to endure stuff that stunt your growth, like you stunt your autonomy, growthing growing your autonomy. It can feel very scary. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah, it can. No, all good, all good. Kimberly: So leaving Mormonism, unless you want to add to that. Leaving Mormonism, what is something you feel is misunderstood? So what do you feel like people might misunderstood about the detaching from the label of Mormon? And how are you trying to balance that as a coach between people who are still in it but aren't sure? People are fully in it and sure they're just trying to create more autonomy and have more of a voice in their religion. And then a third option, people who are just fully done. And they're having a hard time because they're just like everything about Mormonism Mormonism is bad. Cause from from what I've heard from you is you really try to meet people where they're at, but you're also helping trying to help them not feel like they have to choose extremes, like they can't have both. You can, you know, you can look at the good that you learn, but at the same time you can also look at like what might not be helpful. Audra Phelps: Right. Yeah. One of the lessons in in my reclaimed program is called parts integration. And that's looking at the person you were as a s as a young child before all of the conditioning and expectations of others started to set in. Who you were, what lit you up, what gave you joy? What were your interests? You know And then who you were in the church, but really looking at the good parts of it. Like, what were the good things that you learned? You know, like I learned leadership skills in the church. I really did. You know, there were a lot of good things I learned, and a lot of skills I gained in the church. I learned about service. The church is very good with service, serving others, right? So, and then who is it you want to be? The future you. What does the future future you look like? What are the interests of the future you? Who are you with? How do you feel? So there's kind of like three parts of you. The you before the conditioning set in as a young child, the you in the church, and then the you moving forward. And so we spend some time looking at the good things that you want to take with you into the future self and being able to integrate those into someone that is designed by you and only you. And then those feelings that you want to have moving forward, those feelings of peace and excitement and passion and love. how what can you do today to take those feelings into your life moving forward? Where do some small steps that you can take to keep that feeling and to keep that identity of the good parts of you that you like that you want to move forward? So, and that's different for everybody. That's different for everybody. Some people choose to completely leave the church and they cut it off and they cut off family because that's what that's what they choose to do and that's what felt good for them based on their situation and that dynamic. Some people choose to no longer believe in the church, but still have, you know, a lot of friends and family in the church, and they can come to this point where where they're they're they're really secure in themselves and they they are they can see other people have joy in it and not have to partake in it. Right? So there there's just a variety of different ways to do it. And it's about integrating who you were, the good parts of yourself that you can take away from your time being in the church and how you want to take those moving forward. Kimberly: I love that. And honestly, too, just how you're talking reminds me like I used to struggle with a little bit of rigidity. And now these days, I'm the same way. I'm like, you do you. And I think that's kind of how you know you're starting to jump to the nether level of healing of like you're okay with other people doing things the way that works for them. But then you're also like the fun part of healing. Audra Phelps: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Kimberly: Where you're like, I gotta figure out every day something that I enjoy. And I hope this makes you laugh. My next question. It's not the last question, but it's the question I wanna ask, speaking of which. So did you find out what kind of pie you like? Audra Phelps: Yeah. No Yes, like after that, at Christmas time, every like every couple days we would go, and I didn't make it because I was like, I'm not, I don't even like making pie, so I'm gonna go buy pie. But I the kids loved it because every couple days I would go buy a different type of pie. And I was like, okay kids, we're gonna see if this is my favorite kind of pie. And so now my favorite kind of pie is blackberry. Kimberly: I love it. I love it. And it would have been funny too if you've been like, actually it's it's not even pie It's actually cobbler. Like, you know what? I love meat soap cobbler. So easy to make too. So easy. Audra Phelps: Apple not even pie, yeah. Yeah, so much easier than pie and similar flavor, yeah. Kimberly: I know when in doubt if you can take one thing from this, instead of making that apple pie, just make it into an apple cobbler. Save you some steps. ⁓ for sure. It still tastes delicious. ⁓ just the same, honestly. And you know, when in doubt, add whipped cream unless you're lactose intolerant. All right. Was there a point where living ⁓ sorry. Wow, wrong word. Was there a point? Audra Phelps: Right, choose the easy route. Choose the easy route. Come on, it doesn't yeah, come on. We do Yeah. Kimberly: where leaving the church itself no longer felt like the full journey for you. And I think you've hit it, but you wanna expand on that. Audra Phelps: Leaving the church is the catalyst. You know, especially in social media, I see so many people that are they're They're really s they're really still in the space of I've left the church, I'm against the church, I'm gonna point out every wrong thing about the church. And you know, for them that that that's part of their healing journey. I never really got into I mean, I knew the things about church history and the stuff about polygamy. I knew it didn't sit right with me and I knew there was racist policies in the church and like those things, but I didn't dwell on them. Kimberly: Yeah. Audra Phelps: I didn't dwell on them. and but that's part of everyone has a different process. and so leaving the church for me was a catalyst into an exciting journey. Okay, what's next? Okay, then who am I? You know, there's still a lot of Kimberly: Mm. Audra Phelps: There's still a lot of hard times and pain related to that because the I say ⁓ my every once in a while a my inner Mormon critic will still come out. Like I'm still uncovering a belief that is giving me anxiety, or I'm still uncovering feelings of unworthiness, or feelings of being unlovable, or feelings of not being good enough. I still uncover those all the time. And when I dive deep down it's back it's back from a belief that I got in the church, oftentimes, about who I am or who I should be. but now I see life as Who do I want to be? I can reinvent myself. I can make a choice based on who I am, not based on what's best for my kids or based on what I think the church is telling me I should do. And so leaving the church was the catalyst for me to design a life that felt good and inviting in relationships that were based on genuine connection, not based on a shared belief system. Kimberly: Honestly, I was thinking when you were saying the whole time, remind me of the Shrek quote quote of ⁓ It's like an onion. Every layer you think you go through, you go down to another layer or parfait, as Donkey says. Audra Phelps: Yeah, it is. Yeah, or parfait. Yeah, that's good. I it really is. And I'm still I still uncover a layer. I still am uncovering things all the time. Kimberly: Sorry, my cat was sneezing. Audra Phelps: That's okay, my cat was just here too, so it's okay. Kimberly: What lessons ⁓ so I have ⁓ a couple things that we like we're almost done 'cause I don't wanna take too much of your time but I wanna make sure we get everything that we discussed that we're gonna talk about. What lessons are you still keeping right now? Like even if it's your faith, what parts of faith that your faith and beliefs are you still keeping and or just traditions? Audra Phelps: What's what what parts of the faith am I still keeping? Kimberly: Basically the question is what lessons are you still keeping from just your experience of Mormonism? Audra Phelps: You know, the church is really good with community. And I think, you know, when you leave the church, you often lose your community because you don't have that same shared belief. But the church was really good at taking care of their own. And so I take from that the importance of community, the importance of having you know, it takes a village, right? It takes a village to raise a child. That is true. That is definitely true. But so I take that sense of community and fellowshipping with me. I just have redesigned my community to be people who I choose and to be people who lift me up and to be people who I don't feel any kind of judgmental energy coming from them. I choose people who allow me to be myself and this You know, if if there's someone in my in my friendship circle who is in need, I serve them out of pure joy, not out of obligation, because that's what the Relief Society president told me to do, to make a casserole for Joe on Tuesday night, right? But but I serve out of a like a pure intention out of my heart. And so I take that for sure, the importance of community, the importance of helping other people and giving. Kimberly: Yeah. I think that's so true. That's that's the same thing I too kept from my journeys from learning with the church. I'm like, they've always had it right when it came to like about community for sure. And community is important. But is it it's and again, you hit it where it's like, is it really about people who are aligned with the journey you're wanting to go, or at least ex at least accept the fact that Audra Phelps: Yeah, yeah. Kimberly: what you're doing is right for you versus them trying to figure out what's right for you and dictating that instead of supporting, you might be figuring out what's right for you. 'Cause that's what I actually love. Like I've learned this skill with one of my c my closest friends because she's detangling her own stuff. And I'm n I I've never been judgmental about all the stuff she's going through because I'm like, I I shouldn't be because you have to live with your life, not me. Audra Phelps: Right. Kimberly: And it's funny because sometimes she looks at me and be like, What are you talking about? Like, what are you talking about, Willis? And it's like, I I mean it though, hun. Like you have to live with your choices. I don't. And and I love that. And I think that's important with a community. And I think I think if the church and I think there are some churches that do that, but I think if the church as a whole as a whole could evolve to that and understanding of like it's really about helping people. Audra Phelps: Ha ha ha ha. Right. Right. Kimberly: not our image. And I think a lot of it is about image, like we were saying earlier, about perfectionism and stuff like that. When it becomes the focus is really what's hurting people at the end. But it doesn't mean like having goals and competition in of itself is bad. Like, no. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, right. That's true, yeah. Kimberly: And what are things that you're still letting go that you're comfortable with talking about today? Audra Phelps: Things that I'm still letting go. Hmm. Yeah, there's a few. yeah, I would say probably one of the deep most deep seated ones for a lot of women, including myself, is purity culture. Kimberly: Mm. Well, whatever one you're comfortable with. Audra Phelps: Purity culture, and that's not exclusive to Mormonism. There's a lot of religions that ⁓ push purity culture, you know, and there's there's a lot of emotions and desires that are perfectly normal and healthy and natural, but you've been you've been conditioned to feel shame anytime you have any kind of a sexual feeling, anytime something turns you on. Right. And even within a marriage, you know, for up and t with with a lot of religions, especially the LDS faith, you know, you you don't have sex until you get married. I mean, having sex before you get married is like a sin next to murder. And so there's there's a lot of shame connected to sexual feelings. And then you get married and all of a sudden everything's okay. Like you can't just turn that off. You can't just change that belief because a ring was put on your finger. Kimberly: It's true. I've watched that, yeah, with a lot of people I care about, especially because I went to a Christian college. I mean, I watched, I was very empathetic. I wasn't sympathetic because I couldn't understand because I didn't have those beliefs. Like even though they kept trying to put those beliefs on me in the college, I'm like Like I've heard what some of you guys are doing. And like, how is that not a sin? Just because it's you know I'm just like, I'm confused. What do you mean? Audra Phelps: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so Yeah, that's a really hard one and then as especially like, you know, even after I left the church and then my kids were becoming teenagers and it was like Kimberly: Yeah. Audra Phelps: well how am I gonna how am I gonna talk to my kids about sex? Because I know I don't want them to feel that same shame that I felt. I know I don't want them to feel embarrassed about their bodies or to feel especially the girls to feel like their body was responsible for a man sinning if they wore a tank top, right? I did not want my girls to feel the way that I felt, but yet I was feeling that conditioning was still there, like I need to tell. Kimberly: Yeah. Yeah. Audra Phelps: them to cover up. I need to tell them not to have sex. I need to tell them that sex is bad. And so I that that's something that I think takes a lot of unraveling, especially when you're working with kids, of being okay with your body, not being ashamed with your body, and then being okay having sexual feelings and having this healthy relationship with with sex. Kimberly: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Because that's what I learned where my s I I went to school in Washington State and that's what they literally taught us. They taught us how to have sex safely. They talked about relationships. They mostly focused on the only negative was about STDs. And I think that's a fair conversation of hey, this is the risk you take. So I'm like, that's good to know. So yeah, no, everything you said, that's what I grew up with, and I love it. And I think it's so healthy. Audra Phelps: Right. That's a fair conversation, yeah. Right. Right. It's very healthy, but I still every once in a while will find myself, you know, like if my kids are adults now and if they, you know, are coming home to visit with a partner The first question that comes to my mind is still, do I make them sleep in separate rooms? Well, come on. No, of course I don't, but that conditioning is still there. That conditioning is still there that I'm gonna make them sleep in separate rooms. Like, like, why? I know that they're, you know, living together already, and and so, like, you know, but you really the the automatic response, that pattern in my brain is still there. And so that's where I have to. Kimberly: Right. Right. Audra Phelps: Where is this emotion coming from? I'm reacting based out of a conditioned pattern, not based out of my true belief. What's the true belief I have? I want my kids to have freedom and autonomy. I want my kids to have a healthy relationship with sex. So what's a different choice that feels better to me? But it's interesting when you when I feel that come up, you know, that inner Mormon critic is instantly there, and then I have to go, wait a second, that's not really me. Let's take a moment and and make a choice that actually feels aligned to me. Kimberly: Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like too toot toot toot. It sounds like you're also trying to respect your kids and their autonomy as adults 'cause it's like, well, if they are adults, is it real like and that's what the parent I hope to be when I grow up is like I mean, there's rules but there comes a point of it's just more like, can can you not Audra Phelps: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kimberly: flush tampons down the toilet kind of thing. We we have a septic tank. Like I think that's a fair request of like p could we have this rule because I don't want to pay the pumping bill kind of stuff. Versus Yeah, like if you're bringing your partner and you guys live together, you're gonna want to s stay in the same room because you're sleeping next to each other. And I want you guys to sleep well at night, if that's your normal. Audra Phelps: Ha ha Right. Kimberly: ⁓ and then the last one, what advice would you give to parents who struggle with being a leader while also remembering their humanity when it comes to their children? And I love that we already started heading that direction. Audra Phelps: Yeah. Give yourself grace. Give yourself grace. There's so much mom guilt. There's so much mom guilt of I'm failing my kids. I'm doing it wrong. I made a wrong choice. I said the wrong thing. You know. ⁓ there's a quote, I think it's Maya Angelo, when we know better, we do better. And so a lot of times I'll have guilt about things I did in the past, or choices I made when I was a different person, or things I said to my kids when I was a different person. And if I had known better, I would have done better. But I didn't know better. You know, I was a young and mature mom. And I was honestly doing the best I had with the skills I knew. And as I learned new skills, I did better. And I made different choices. And so give yourself some grace. I I I saw this another quote once when my kids were teenagers, that kids are watching their parents grow up. Kimberly: True. Audra Phelps: And for me, when I left the church, I had to undo all that conditioning that, you know, if you look at n at like neuroscience and child development, really I had to kind of go back to being like seven years old. And I had to heal seven year old me at the same time as raising my kids. Kimberly: Mm. Audra Phelps: And I was doing the best I could with what I knew. And and my you know, my kids are great. They're wonderful. And I have a great relationship with my adult children. And did I make mistakes? Absolutely. Do they need therapies for some things I did? Probably. Actually I can pretty much guarantee that they're gonna That you know, there's some things they're gonna have to unravel, right? But but that's what makes the human experience beautiful. And now I have these really open, honest conversations with my kids about what life was like for them growing up, what life was like for me as a young mom. And even just this last Christmas, I was talking to my 21-year-old and Kimberly: Yeah. Audra Phelps: I was talking to her, you know, about the journey of leaving the church and she was like, I don't remember when you left you really telling us. And I said, I didn't. I was so embarrassed, I didn't know what to say, and I felt like I needed to have all the right answers for you and I didn't. And she said, I think you could have told us and we would have understood. And and I was like, Wow. Kimberly: It's crazy. Kids really are very understanding. Audra Phelps: Very understanding and like it's okay to be vulnerable with your child. You don't have to be like the authority that knows everything. It's okay to to to admit to your child that you're struggling with something, you know, at age appropriate, you know, levels and ⁓ Kimberly: Mm. ⁓ absolutely. Audra Phelps: And to open up because if they see you struggle, they're gonna know that it's okay for them to struggle. They're not gonna feel this perfectionism that you grew up with if they see that it's okay that mom's not perfect. Right? So, so yet give yourself grace and be willing to open up to your kids and say, you know, when they come to you with a question and say, I don't know. Let's figure this out together. Kimberly: Hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. And I'm not sure if I've said this already, but I think it'd be a really good like endpoint is so what I see, what you're doing in the direction you're trying to go, is you're seeing a need for specifically women, ⁓ leaving the Mormon church, that the pain of staying is outweighing the pain of leaving. And you're trying to create space for them, a community for them, so they didn't have to feel it alone like you did at some aspects. Audra Phelps: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I like the way you say that the pain of staying is ⁓ greater than the pain of leaving. And gosh, it can be it can be so different on the other side. Living a life that's aligned, living a life that's yours, making decisions that are from you and just having those deep relationships with your kids that's not based on expectation but based on on a clear identity and and Real acceptance and belonging, that's something I didn't experience when I was in the church, and that's something that I have found once leaving. And And so that's one thing I really help women do is find a community of other moms too. So in my in my reclaimed program we have a community, we have group coaching calls, we have a community where the women are, you know, can they can talk to other women who just get it. 'Cause when I left, you know I didn't know anyone else who had left and I was trying to explain to some of my non Mormon friend non Mormon friends what it was like and like they didn't get it. They didn't understand the jargon, they didn't understand the conditioning, they didn't understand You know, what, you don't drink coffee, that doesn't make sense. And like I didn't have t but if you're with women who just get it, like you don't have to explain. They they they know. They just know. And that so that's really powerful is that community that we create together and then and then the healing process of figuring out who you are, regulating emotion, navigating the grief of loss and coming to terms with some of that mom guilt is it's really transformational. Kimberly: Well, Audra, it was a pleasure doing this interview with you. And I hope for many more to come. And I wanna sign us off that if you are wanting to reach Audra, her company name is Mama Audra. And I know we can find you on Facebook. Where else could we find you? Audra Phelps: I'm on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok, but I also have a website that's mamaadra.com. And I have a free masterclass for ⁓ ex-Mormon moms that have left the church. And if you just go to mamaudra.com/slash training, you can watch that masterclass. And then if that resonates with you, there's an application there to fill out to schedule a call with me, and I'd be happy to chat about the reclaimed program. Kimberly: Awesome, wonderful. I'll stop the recording now.