Latest / Rural-E / Why Rural Drivers Have the Most to Gain From Going Electric

Transcript

Why Rural Drivers Have the Most to Gain From Going Electric · Rural-E

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's costing me between thirty-five and forty cents a mile in fuel to drive that pickup.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: If I go look at the Chevy Silverado, it's cost me about when I chart at home, it's cost me about five and a half to six cents a mile to drive that.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh to drive a pickup truck.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there are two different types of pickups, obviously.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: The the Ram truck uh 3500 has a lot more towing and hauling potential, but about 90% of the time I can do everything I need with this Silverado.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: But then you take, and if you compare that back to the the Tesla car or a uh Sedan EV, I think you're you get down to about two cents a mile to drive.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you're going from 40 cents a mile, 35, 40 cents a mile with a diesel truck.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And if you if you go to an electric truck, it's six cents, five and a half, six cents.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if you go to a uh an electric car, you're down two two to three cents a mile.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean that's that's real money.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, welcome.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to a the Rule E podcast, real stories from the people actually working in rural energy systems, no politics, just what works and what doesn't.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And on this episode, I have one of my dear friends, Steve Gootman, with me.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna talk a little bit about a program that we worked on together called EV Math.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we're also gonna share some of our experiences of driving EVs in the rural areas and charging and that.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so welcome today, Steve.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for taking some time to be on uh on this podcast with me.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: You bet it's a pleasure and an honor to be here, Robert.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, um, Steve, let's start off by you know, just just telling us a little bit about yourself, give us a little background and and uh kind of you know how you got to to where you're at, and then uh and then we can kind of dive into the EV math a little bit and talk about how that got started.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think um really my my professional path started when I was in college.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I was taking a a systems dynamics engineering course and saw the Keeling curve for the first time, you know, the uh the carbon dioxide emissions curve.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh I thought, oh, that looks like job security because that looks like a real problem.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um I've sort of spent my life working at the intersection of um uh business and um I think business and the environment.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I worked for uh an environmentally focused bank.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I worked um uh so in finance, also in carbon finance.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: I worked in transportation in the car sharing industry, uh, which is best known by Zipcar and Turo.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: More recently, I have been working uh in transportation electrification for a big company called Nextera Energy.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then in um you know, since leaving there a couple years ago, I've been working with uh folks like Robert and other people who work on a different sort of um rural economic development projects throughout the state.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: My role uh in working with those folks has been largely as a program designer and fundraiser.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I I write grants and help shape programs for rural economic development.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's kind of my background.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, Steve, when you and I first met, you're actually kind of the mastermind behind a program that we worked on together called eFarms, and that's where we're uh originally started out by testing out a couple of electric tractors.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember you had called me and uh you had you'd got our number from uh one of your other uh uh program partners or contacts, and you asked me if I was interested in working together with you and to develop this program called eFarms, and at that time it was called e-Tractor, actually.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you had identified a uh manufacturer out of California that was making these electric tractors.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh do you remember do you remember that conversation that we had there?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: What I remember, I remember being in a a room with a bunch of people, uh, all in the city, all in Portland, and uh met you.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking, well, if we're gonna get any purchase, if we're gonna get any actual farmers to take a look at these tractors, we need to have you at the uh at the at the tip of the spear because nobody was gonna listen to any uh any urban folks bringing a newfangled electric tractor technology into rural areas, they're gonna laugh us right out of town.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I just uh was really hoping that you would sign up to uh be the uh be the rural sort of face of the e-farms program, the e-tractor now e-farms program, and I think the rest is history, and and I think I think uh my intuition in that sense really was right that you know having somebody from uh rural communities uh who actually has a little bit of you know mud on their boots and uh and uh and just knows their way around rural communities is a much better messenger for a lot of this uh this energy efficiency, this energy efficient equipment and energy efficient efficiency message than uh than anybody from the city.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So is that what you're referring to?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or are you you you think you get something else?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: That that was kind of exactly, I remember you kind of had a coax me a little bit and convinced me that this was a good idea, and I remember I was thinking, boy, I don't know uh where I live, this may not be too popular of a of an idea.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we decided to move forward with it.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it went from two tractors now to several pieces of off-road equipment and pickup trucks and and all that.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that you know, that kind of got us into looking at other opportunities in the rural areas.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I know one of the things, uh one of the ideas that you had was coming up with this uh essentially economic calculator or economic story talking about uh rural folks and uh you know driving EVs and the fact that oftentimes the folks that live in the rural areas drive so many miles per year because we have to drive um you know 30, 40 miles round trip just to the grocery store or or uh to the doctor's appointment and that type of thing.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I remember one time you called me and I was driving uh my diesel pickup and I was going to my daughter's track meet, and uh we were talking on the phone, and and you said, Why are you driving that diesel pickup to go to a track meet?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Well, I don't know, just what I drive, you know, and you know, how much is that costing you?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And we had this whole conversation over the phone at that time about the cost of driving that diesel pickup versus if I would be driving an electric vehicle.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me that it it started to soak in, you know, kind of what that cost difference was and everything.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and then uh you had uh your Tesla car and uh we were getting ready to go to an event, and I remember you said, have you ever ridden in a Tesla?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got I've ridden in a Tesla one time, and you're like, Okay, good.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: You meet me in Portland, you're gonna hop in with me, and we're gonna we're gonna drive over to Astoria where we had a meeting in my car, and you're gonna get to experience this.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And say, okay, all right, let's go.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I remember driving over to Astoria, we hopped in with you, and I was just I was so shocked by the technology and how it worked and and all these different things.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and I think out of that spun this concept that you came up with called EV math.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about EV math and and kind of what you know what um you know what your what your thoughts were when you were getting ready to uh you know put that together and kind of where that's at now.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I mean, I had read um an interesting article about a a little nonprofit called Kultura in Seattle, and they basically were making the argument that we shouldn't be subsidizing electric vehicles for people in the city, people like me, frankly, that uh you know used to have a very efficient little uh you know Japanese car and were switching from driving that 6,000 miles a year to driving a you know an EV 6,000 miles a year, because it doesn't really save that much fuel.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't save that much money.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And what these folks at Kultura uh up in Seattle were saying is we should be subsidizing the switch from really uh inefficient vehicles being driven very, very long distances um and and incentivizing people who drive those vehicles uh to uh to switch to EVs.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um and that's largely rural people, right?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Rural people drive big, you know, uh big heavy trucks and they tend to drive long distances.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um you're basically at the at the time one of one of a a small handful of rural people I knew who sort of fit the bill.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I started thinking about well, Robert is like exhibit A of a person who drives, you know, you drive at the time you were driving, I think you said 4,000 miles a month all over the state with that 13 MPG pickup truck.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you needed to be driving that pickup truck because you're doing you know, irrigation work, but sometimes you were just going to your daughter's, you know, volleyball game or whatever.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so we created EV math to basically tell stories like your story.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and your story uh it came to be after after you and I went to Astoria on that, you know, on that trip together, you did the math, right?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: You did the math, and 48 hours later you uh went out and bought yourself a a secondhand Tesla for about 20 grand and you started saving about a thousand dollars a month on fuel, or maybe it was, I think it was a little less than that, but you're saving eight hundred and fifty dollars a month on fuel.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I just thought, man, that's a really interesting story that could positively impact lives, a lot of people's, you know, a lot of people's bottom lines, especially people in rural areas who are, again, spending huge amounts of money on on fuel.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh uh I I thought this Robert story needs to be told.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I wrote up your story, and then I contacted a friend of mine, a guy named a guy named Mark Jacobs, who's a very talented marketing guy, and he was doing clean tech marketing, and I basically talked him into helping me create a a nonprofit um under uh under the fiscal sponsorship of of your organization, Y East Resource Conservation and Development.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, under your fiscal sponsorship, we created this nonprofit.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: We told your story, and then we met a few other rural people who had switched to EVs and we told their story.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then Mark brought in some really talented videographers and photographers and made a really nice website at evmath.org.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so we told stories, written stories, some video stories, and uh it got started getting some traction.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And some other people in rural areas started realizing, wow, you know, um, maybe I should be thinking about buying a secondhand EV and using that instead of you know driving a an F-350 to my daughter's, you know, volleyball game.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I think that's that's kind of the that's kind of the story, more or less.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then we, you know, one of the things we realized very, very quickly is that we wanted to make sure that we were spe speaking rural.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, we hired Robert um and his team to go through everything that we everything we presented on the site and to make sure that we weren't saying things that were gonna, you know, annoy people and or f or you know feel condescending in any way.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we really put it through a filter of um we we wanted the stories to be told by rural people for rural people.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh my my partner Mark and I put ourselves very much in the background and we put people like Robert at the forefront um and some other people.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: There was a fifth generation ranching family out in Antelope, Oregon that was featured, and several other people.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and the stories just resonated, and they really did resonate in rural areas where people were used to hearing about EVs from a very urban perspective.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we just tried to present it in a different way, and I think it really, really worked quite well.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I have to agree, and I you know, you kind of mentioned a couple of things there, and maybe, you know, to kind of move us in on is um after I had went on this trip with Utah store in your car, you know, I said, well, gosh, where do I where do I even start looking at if I'm interested in in in buying an EV?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I just wasn't sure.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, it works for you, but will it work for me type of thing?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I remember I started looking and you had pointed out um plat auto there in Portland and they focus on used EVs, and I went on their website and looked, and they had a a 2018 uh Tesla Model 3, uh, and it ended up costing about$20,000 out the door.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember talking to you about it, Steve, and you're like, oh, maybe try to get something newer.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I don't know.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm still not quite sure if it's gonna work.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't want to spend too much money and and then maybe just start with this and see, and end up, end up you you ran down to the dealership and looked at the car and checked it all out for me like that that same day.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think I went down the next day and looked at it and ended up buying that car and driving it home.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um I quickly parked the diesel pickup and only started driving it when I needed to haul something or tow a trailer in that and started using this car for my my day-to-day and my trip, you know, going to meetings and and uh the kids' activities and those types of things.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh holy smokes, it I wasn't even really thinking as much about, I mean, I had it was in the back of my mind the cost to drive, you know, and from your and I's conversations and stuff, but uh found out very quickly that, hey, this works and it works quite well for what I need to do.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And at the time where where I live, you know, kind of a rural area in Waskoge County, there wasn't a lot of electric vehicles around.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you see one here and there.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times it'd be once we went down the Columbia River Gorge and got into the Troutdale, Portland area before we'd start seeing Teslas and other electric vehicles and stuff.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I remember you would you'd check in with me about once a week, just how's it going?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: What do you like?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and kind of giving me pointers and stuff on it.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, having that little bit of support kind of helped build some trust too uh with that car.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I I remember Robert, you used to say when I used to call, you'd I'd say, so how's it going?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is you having fun?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is it working for you?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you say, Well, no bullet holes yet, you know, no none of my neighbors have shot me yet for driving an electric car.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: I always thought that was funny.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: But then you later you started saying, Well, some of your neighbors are asking you about it and they're thinking about but getting them themselves.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then yeah, I mean, talk a little bit more about what happened from there because I think it's really pretty interesting.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, I mean I, you know, several of my local friends and neighbors and stuff, like, oh my god, I can't believe you're driving that electric car, and you know, kind of the stigma around it.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, you know, it saves me money and it works for me, and that's all I care.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and they'd kind of look at me funny.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember there was I was on um uh I'm just gonna say a local board, and I went down to talk with one of my fellow board members, and uh her husband says, Hey, you gotta you gotta go move that Tesla out of our driveway.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: We can't have this parked here.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Yeah, we don't have electric cars parked in our driveway.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: He just, you know, kind of razzin' me.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyways, time goes on, and uh this last spring, uh the I had uh connected with the wife there at a track meet or something, and she's like, Oh my god, you'd never believe.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, What happened what are you talking about?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, We bought a we bought a new Tesla.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I just couldn't.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I can't wait to talk to your husband about this.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and I've and I've had my opportunity to razz him a little bit about it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: But um, in addition to that, I had several of the folks that have kind of razzed me over time, you know, in the last, you know, six, eight months, the fuel prices have gone up quite a bit uh for regular, you know, regular fuel or diesel.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had a lot of people coming to me asking, you know, sincerely asking, like, hey, how do you like that electric car?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Does it work for you?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just just kind of pressure of the fuel prices and everything and uh and everything.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I I kind of chuckle about it now.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um with the same people that we're giving me a bad time for now coming to me, you know, sincerely asking how it's working and that.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then also we're seeing more and more EVs in the rural areas now.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I would say over the last 18 months or so, we've seen a a number of uh folks that are buying electric vehicles.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's always one thing that I've talked about is where we live here in Wax County.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: We, you know, we have some of the the least expensive electricity in the nation.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of our power is coming off the hydro system.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yet our our fuel, liquid fuel prices are some of the highest because of you know, having to haul fuel into these rural areas and everything.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so why aren't we some of the first folks to adopt this and stuff?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the transition's happening for sure.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I I know for me, you know, it's like everybody's got to do this for their own reason.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And all I can say is for me it works.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: I still have a couple of my friends that shake their head and and say they would never do that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, that's fine.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, that's your doings.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't like uh paying all that money for uh gas to drive up and down the road.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I will say also I still have the diesel pickup and other other gasoline vehicles that we use.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's a a quick trip to town or going to a meeting and stuff, we're definitely hopping in the uh Tesla, or we've actually purchased a uh uh new Chevy Silverado EB pickup because one of the things we were having a challenge with, I kept trying to pack all my tools in this Tesla car, and I didn't have room for everything because a lot of times I was working on a piece of equipment or uh meetings in that.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so we actually recently purchased a uh new Chevy Silverado EV and have been driving that all over uh really all over the Western US so far this year.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, kind of one thing leads to another.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: The Steve Collin asking about if we'd want to be involved with this electric tractor program to purchase in uh the first used EV to purchasing a new EV and stuff, and kind of uh, you know, taking a look at how that works in the in the rural areas.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I know Steve, you and I have talked quite a bit about the used market right now, and to me, that seems like a real sweet spot where a lot of these used EVs are coming off lease.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's a you know, I I think my opinion is it's a good uh a good time for folks to look at that and look for the used market.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: What's your thoughts around that?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Used EVs and uh Yeah, 100 100%.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, anybody who's never had an EV, I would encourage them to uh check out a used EV.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: They're really inexpensive.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: You can get um you can get a used Chevy Bolt or a Nissan Leaf for well under ten thousand dollars in many instances, you know.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and those those if especially older ones don't have a ton of range.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're just using it to run into town or to do, you know, shorter trips, they're perfectly fine.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you need a longer range EV, the um you know the you really want to think about a couple of things.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: You want to think about what's the total range, right?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you also want to think about how fast they can charge at a fast charger, because even some of the um some of the older EVs, um for example, a sh a Chevy Bolt, uh an older Chevy bolt, um, they they have plenty of range.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: They have you know well over 250 miles of range, but um but they're pretty slow to charge.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're relying on fast chargers because you're traveling long distances, uh it can take a long time to get those charged back up.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, uh a lot of my a lot of my friends don't, you know, they don't like hearing me say this, but the reality is if you're in a rural area and you are going to be driving very long distances, I still think that your best bet in terms of used vehicles is to buy an older Tesla simply because they have uh a lot of range.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: The charging infrastructure is amazing.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are chargers all over, including in rural areas and the charging infrastructure always works.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's you know, um again, it's become pretty unfashionable, especially here in the city, to uh to be uh promoting uh Teslas.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it's for rural people, I really think it's the practical choice for most people.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you can afford a newer vehicle, you have a lot more choices um because the newer uh the newer non-Teslas have access to a lot of the uh the Tesla charging infrastructure and they charge quickly.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: But you want to make sure that you're getting uh if you're buying a used vehicle, you want to get something that can charge quickly and that has access to um I think that has access to the Tesla chargers as well as the uh as the um you know the uh the CCS or the the other chargers, um the non-Tesla chargers.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's uh that's kind of my two cents on it all.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, I I drive a Tesla myself and I, you know, I do love the car, but um there are lots of other vehicles, um, especially newer ones that are you know in in many ways they're every bit as good.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're buying a used one and you want it for a longer uh want it for longer distances, I think I'd still steer most people toward uh toward Tesla vehicles.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you feel about that, Robert, but um that's my that's kind of my sense.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've you know, I I you know, to kind of talk about that a little bit, when we we had some other vehicles for our our program work, it was through the eFarms program, we had the one of the first Rivian pickup trucks that came out, um, and then we had the F-150 Lightning.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was sometimes challenging, especially in the rural areas for charging.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I think that's one of the one of the issues that's out there is you know, I think I seen uh study someplace here recently that one in five chargers don't work.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was kind of frustrating and challenging.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta be a little bit of a MacGyver sometimes, especially in the rural areas when you're driving.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Driving an electric vehicle and where are you going to charge?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then I know for myself, my own experiences, when I'm when uh we bought this used Tesla, um, that's when you know we first started charging at the Tesla stations, and it was so easy.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: You just back in, you get out, plug the cord in, and it starts charging.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I was I was pretty impressed about that.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so I kind of got spoiled with that.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then when we went back this last spring and bought the Chevy Silverado, uh, we knew now that the Tesla network is opened up.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in some of our travels and stuff, I mean, we've we've taken the truck all the way down to Vegas over to Gunnison, Colorado.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: We've made a couple different road trips with it.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've in the last uh we were looking in the last two weeks, we've towed uh a little mini excavator and an electric fusion cart for delivery for work.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we've towed about a thousand miles.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of those routes went up into the Seattle area along I-5, which you have pretty decent charging going up I-5, and the other route went over into central Washington, up into Ellensburg, Washington, and Winatchie.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And boy, you really have to do a lot better on your route planning, uh, especially if you're towing with an with an EV pickup.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the the challenge, I guess, is you we've started using some of the non-Tesla chargers and then kind of backed some of these experiences where you know that there may be uh a particular charging station and only one of four uh chargers are working, or it won't take your credit card, or you're standing there for three to five to ten minutes trying to get the charger to start.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think you know, with that, kind of what you said is definitely uh our experience a Tesla car on a Tesla charging station is about the easiest as it as I've seen and experienced in our own own side of things as far as charging those vehicles.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I I know that in talking to you know people that have driven EVs and stuff, especially in the rural areas, that that tends to be a challenge.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think I think the other thing to point out is uh and I think Steve, I think you're the one that told me this number.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think you said it was in the 80 percentile of people with EVs charge at home.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I know for myself, that's the the least expensive way to charge my my vehicle.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously we have our our small farm here, and we've got uh several different options to charge, but if you can charge at home, that's you know kind of the easiest way to go about it.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think the EV, the rural charging is definitely uh still a challenge out there.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting better and better, and there are more stations going in.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that Tesla did open up uh most of their stations to non-Tesla vehicles has definitely made an impact, impact for us.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: So but I know Steve, I guess you know, just after we got that Chevy Silverado, you came up and you had a you had some business down in uh central Oregon, and you actually stopped by the house here and uh and grabbed that Chevy Silverado and took it, took it down and and did business in Central Oregon stuff.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you want to talk about that a little bit or Oh yeah.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's it's a great vehicle.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a big vehicle.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not somebody who, you know, I haven't been driving pickup trucks my whole life like you have, but um that was a it was a fantastic, uh fantastic experience driving a a massive truck.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: I felt uh felt like I finally belonged in central Oregon.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um no, but it's uh it was it was it was easy to easy to charge.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just drove it from uh I drove it from your place in uh in Doofer down to um down to Bend and um yeah, it was and and then back up and it was fantastic.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, no, I drove it, I I drove it down to uh to Prineville and to Post as well on that trip.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, excellent vehicle.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, again, if you can afford a newer vehicle, there are lots of different options.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And my talking about uh Teslas, it's really uh well like the uh my advocacy for Tesla vehicles for rural people is really uh if you uh are limited to buying something used.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you can afford a newer vehicle, the Rivians are fantastic, the GM vehicles are fantastic.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um there are a lot of really, really good choices.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and also you know, the the the Kiyas are good cars.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are there are lots of good vehicles available now if you can, you know, if you can bite the bullet and buy a new one.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh yeah, and the Rivian is I mean, sorry, the uh the Silverado is certainly one among those.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a it's a great vehicle for somebody who needs a big pickup truck.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you even broke your cowboy hat out for that one.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we I know you and I have driven quite a bit in the rural areas.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I guess are what are some other things that you think, you know, what could we be, what should we be looking at as far as um to try to increase the the number of EVs in rural areas?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Are there some things that come to mind for you that, you know, kind of uh that we should be looking at that we could do to make it better?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it the vehicle itself?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, you know, you already said something really important, but I think it bears repeating because it's so important.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, well over 80.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: I th I've heard I think 85 or even 90 percent of all charging for electric vehicle owners happens at their home.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and it happens overnight.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't happen to have to be on a fast charger.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody can, I mean, a level two charger adds about 30 miles of range for every hour that it's plugged in.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: So overnight, you know, while you're asleep for eight hours or so, or you know, eating dinner and asleep for you know 12 hours total or whatever, um, that your vehicle will get completely charged with absolutely no problem.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have a vehicle with a lot of range, you know, three and sometimes four hundred miles of range, it's a very, very rare day that you're ever even going to need to fast charge at a public charging station.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: You'll be able to charge at home, charge it up to 300 or so miles, use it the next day for all your driving, and unless you're going on a very long trip, you're never even going to have to use a public charger.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that information is something that many rural people, well many people who don't have EVs don't fully understand.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, using public charging stations is it's not a frequent occurrence for most EV drivers.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: They are almost dry they're they're charging at home almost entirely and really only using public charging stations once in a while.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that remains the perception that uh there's not enough charging out here in you know, wherever, out near Madras or whatever, there's not enough public charging.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: I could never drive an EV.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Once people realize that they could actually charge at home and pay six cents a kilowatt hour and drive four miles on that six cents, you know, they you know, they stand to save a ton of money, and the perceived hassle of having to find charging is much less of a hassle than most people realize.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that is that's that remains the the major learning curve for most people in rural areas.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um what do you think about that, Robert?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is that true?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh a couple of things, you know, kind of come to mind as you're mentioning that.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think one important factor for me was to have a uh an EV where I can get from my house and Dufer to Portland and back without having to charge.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's about you know 200 to 220 mile uh driving down I-84.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you know, you when you're going down in the interstate, it you don't get quite the efficiency and stuff.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I can do that with the Tesla, uh, and I can really Silverado.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was a big thing for me.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't have to worry about if I'm just going into Portland and back for a meeting, I'm not gonna have to go to Portland, go to the meeting, charge, get home, uh, type of thing.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other, the other piece that you just mentioned too, and I think this was worth noting, is as we're taught as we're talking about the a Silverado, you know, again, comparing that with uh diesel pickup, we've got a uh 3,500 RAM diesel pickup with the big flatbed on it and stuff.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And just if we look at just driving that pickup, if I'm driving it into a doctor's appointment or to a meeting, you know, with not pulling the load or anything, one, it's a really expensive pickup to drive up and down the road.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: But two, it's costing me between 35 and 40 cents a mile in fuel to drive that pickup.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: If I go look at the Chevy Silverado, it's cost me when I chart at home, it's cost me about five and a half to six cents a mile to drive that, uh, to drive a pickup truck.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there are two different types of pickups, obviously.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that the the Ram truck uh 3500 has a lot more towing and hauling potential, but about 90% of the time I can do everything I need with this Silverado.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then you take, and if you compare that back to the the Tesla car or a uh sedan EV, I think you're you get down to about two cents a mile to drive.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you're going from 40 cents a mile, 35, 40 cents a mile with a diesel truck.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if you if you go to an electric truck, it's six cents, five and a half, six cents.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you go to a uh an electric car, you're down two, two to three cents a mile.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean that's that's real money, and I guess that's what I was looking at, and it it it took me experience in that before I kind of realized how much the savings was.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um I can jump in, Robert, if you if you scale that up and hundreds and then thousands of people in rural areas are switching to electric propulsion, all that money is staying in the community, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're buying electricity, which is locally generated, but they're buying a lot less of it, right?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're just buying they're spending a lot less of their money on fuel, and so they got more money to, you know, spend at the grocery store or at the bar or, you know, at at a restaurant or you know, in their local community.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I I mean, I think, and I'm actually writing an article about this, but I think switching to EVs is for rural communities a tremendous economic, local economic development lever because it keeps more money in the local community and less money is you know flowing out of town with uh you know with with uh with gasoline purchases, gas and diesel purchases, more money staying in town.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and I've I've done some preliminary calculations, and I think if I if my calculations are right, it's already had about a two billion dollar impact on the rural economies of or sorry, on the economies of Oregon and Washington, two billion dollars of money that has stayed in the region rather than you know being exported to buy um to buy fossil fuels that are that are generated that are that are you know that are produced elsewhere.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I and I agree with you there.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I I know, you know, that a lot of times when when my my hecklers would razz me about the EV, I say, well, I'd point at like the Dalles Dam and say, well, that's where my fuel comes from, right there.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: How much more local could that be?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because we live, we literally live, you know, my house is 20 miles from the dam.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where our a majority of our electrical power comes from.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then yet, you know, we're still importing uh liquid fuels and stuff.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so for and and I think I think one of the things, and I think this came out in EV math is really focusing on the economics of it.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot of politics around EVs.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a lot of, you know, the early, uh I think a lot of the early adopters on EVs were more uh climate type, you know, green uh driven motives in that.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think with EV math, we were just really wanted to focus on, you know, do the math, what are the numbers, the economics of it.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what really resonated with a lot of the rural folks that I've talked to.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and I really think that's what made that EV math program what it is.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is being able to, you know, folks can log on to evmath.org and go in there and actually uh there's a little calculator they can use and uh kind of figure out what the savings would be for them going from one vehicle to another.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I think and you know, I think we talked about already, but I think if they're not ready to or not able to go into a new EV, you know, that used market right now, to me seems like um, you know, some of those some of those uh EVs from three and four years ago that are coming off lease have really depreciated down.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pretty affordable car.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's almost an equal uh to a to a comparable gasoline car, but yet your fuel costs are just a fraction of what that same you know gasoline comparable car would be.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, 100%.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and you know, you just mentioned this, but you when when we developed EV math, uh my my business partner Mark and I, we've sort of we got we grew fond of saying like we don't mention, you know, we don't remen mention uh politics or polar bears and we don't mention uh climate or carbon.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: We just talk about dollars and cents, you know, and the driving experience.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really important, you know, because again, like you know, different messages resonate for different people, but everybody's interested in saving money.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the driving experience too, I think, you know, that's one of the one of the things uh in a I remember listening to an interview that Jim Farley from uh Ford Motor Company uh and he was talking about we need to make driving uh cars fun again.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in in the 60s and 70s, it was always about this experience of the muscle cars.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and then uh I know that in our work through the various different programs we work under and we do ride and drive events and stuff like that, and uh just giving people an opportunity to either ride or drive these vehicles is a is just giving them their own experience.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I know um a quick funny story I had, I a couple of my local farmer friends would were continuously razzing me about uh when we first got that Rivian pickup truck.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so they all have coffee down at the uh one guy's shop, and so I went down there and it was over the weekend, and they uh they said, Hey, did you bring that electric pickup down?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, do you guys want to check it out?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's go check it out.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: So they all there was three of these guys, and they're all kind of older in their 70s, uh hot rod kind of farmer guys, you know, and and they all checked this truck out and I said, Well, do you want to go for a ride?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: And they well, yeah, let's go for a ride.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then we went down and and uh when that Rivian first came out, uh uh, you know, they kind of advertised the launch mode.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so we went down and uh found a nice spot on the highway and went, we did what zero to sixty in you know 3.5 seconds or whatever it is.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And those guys were so impressed with that that none of them have ever said a negative word again, but they they got they got the experience of it, you know, they got to feel it, the performance of it and uh and stuff.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was kind of a funny story um how that how that all happened and it took them, you know, kind of a ride in a vehicle uh to to get their own experience.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, none of them have moved forward with buying a a uh an EV.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if any of them has a car newer than the 1980s right now, but you know, but it still they they kind of um they got their own experience with it, was able to take it from you know, take a ride in a in an EV and kind of check out what it was and what it was about.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: So one other thing I want to say about um about rural charging, Robert, and I and it this kind of goes back to the economic development um benefits of EVs.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's something called a destination charger, which is basically a level two charger.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same type of charger people put at their homes to charge overnight, but more and more um restaurants and bed and breakfasts, small hotels, and other destinations are installing um level two chargers for for basically for people passing through, right?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you stop for an hour and a half, you know, and have a long lunch, you can add 45 miles to your um uh to your bat back to your battery if you uh if you can plug into a level two charger.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of proprietors, I think, are coming to understand that if they can provide level two charging as an amenity, either for people staying overnight or people having a meal or whatever, they're going to be drawing it's just it's a uh it's a reason to stop, right?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um in in many instances, those um those chargers will show up on the screen in your car.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: And rather than stopping at restaurant A, you might stop at restaurant B because you know that there's a destination charger there and you can, you know, for either little or no money, you can uh add a few more miles to your vehicle while you're you know, while you're sitting there uh or while you're while you're spending the night.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I know uh you and I've worked on a uh kind of an energy resiliency project here in Wasco County, and uh it included putting some level two EV chargers out there, and we intentionally went out and uh uh looked for small businesses where it would make sense where people are gonna be at for a little bit, or to or drive the economy to them, and we ended up uh selecting uh four different locations, three of which being kind of rural gas stations, and then one of them being um um down in antelope with Brandy there at the uh Antelope Base Camp where it's more cabins and such, and uh put these uh these mobile power units that have uh level two EV charging on them with the intention of people looking for those destinations to be able to get you know an extra 30, 40 miles on, just like you're talking.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it has worked.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: What we've seen at the at the rural gas stations are folks are going there, they're seeing this charger on the map, they're they're getting a burger, they're getting some sodas, they're spending a little bit of time there, uh, whether vehicle you know charges for an hour or even a couple hours.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're taking a uh bike ride or a hike or what have you.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're spending money locally, uh, and they're stopping there because that level two charger is there.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and uh I think the same is true.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know with us, if we're going someplace, uh we're looking to see at a hotel if there's a nearby charger.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh level twos, I I think work quite well for that because you can charge overnight just like you're talking about.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I know if folks ask me, you know, what are what are things we could be doing more in the rural areas to help with EV adoption, you know, that's one of the first answers I have is we need to have more level two chargers where people are naturally already going or um where their cars are going to be sitting for a while, thinking about at the school, at the doctor's office, at the grocery store, those types of things.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, a lot of time we hear so much about the DC fast chargers, which are are nice, uh, but they're also very expensive to install and and it's actually even more expensive to charge on those and stuff.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know with us we're we're using the DC fast chargers when we're doing more of the trips, but local, um, if we see a level two charger and we know we're gonna be there for a while, we'll definitely plug into that and get that get that range while that car's gonna sit there anyways.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: So with that, Steve, I guess um anything else you want to add, make sure we include on this about your about EV math or kind of rule driving.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess uh I hope that um you know you'll be a regular on the show here for us, and so we can dig into some of these other details and in depth and and talk more about this.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, anything else you want to make sure we include today?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the only thing I would say right now is that uh EV math is actively um recruiting rural EV owners to profile.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you if you live in a rural area and you have an electric vehicle and you'd like to share your story with other rural folks um to you know help spread the word, um please get in touch.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um you can reach us through the evmath.org website.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh right now we're particularly focused on the Puget Sound Energy service territory.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're interviewing uh EV rural EV owners in that area um because we have a um we're gonna be uh we're going to be doing a campaign in uh PSE service territory that uh yeah that that highlights uh the profiles and highlights uh rural EV drivers there.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um with luck we'll be doing another campaign uh soon here in Oregon and uh we hope to do it all over the Pacific Northwest and beyond um uh in the future.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so everybody can check out uh evmath.org.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put a link in the with the uh with the show here and so you can do that.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if they want to get a hold of you, Steve, I believe your contact information is on the ev.math uh evmath.org website also.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's just steve at evmath.org.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that it's not that challenging.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I know also on there um we had an offer too that if folks had questions and stuff, they could reach out to you.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: You are EV expert on there.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so they could reach out to you if they have questions about EV math or even maybe about some of the vehicles and options that might be out there for them.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hey, thanks, Steve.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you being on with us today.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to having you on next time and and digging into some more details about EVs and uh some of the other work that you're doing out there.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: So appreciate it.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks again for joining us.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Robert.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's always a pleasure.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, all right, thank you.