Latest / The Kink Consultant / Talking About Sex Is Hard But Squirm’s Tess and Kels Is Making It Sexy, Fun, and Shame-Free

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Talking About Sex Is Hard But Squirm’s Tess and Kels Is Making It Sexy, Fun, and Shame-Free · The Kink Consultant

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It's the King Consultant podcast where we're turning up the heat
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on all things kink and dating, relationships and pop culture.
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So close the door, plug in your headphones and let's get down to
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it. Hey everybody, welcome to the
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King Consultant podcast. In this episode I sit down with
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Tess and Kels, the brilliant minds behind Squirm and Co,
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hosts of Porn Nerds podcast. We talk about how they went from
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Whole Foods lunch chats to creating sex Ed brand for
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adults, why Eroticism belongs in education and how porn can
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actually help us talk about sex. If you've ever struggled to
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express your desires or just want sex Ed that's actually fun,
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this one's for you. Welcome.
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Kelson, Tess. Thank you.
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Thanks for having. Us absolutely.
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Well when I came across your profile I thought Oh my gosh,
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people who are comfortable talking about porn and also
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helping couples have conversations about intimacy
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when it's normally like at the stage where it's like oh just
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talk about it. But then with 0 help on how to
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talk about it. I was like, these are my people.
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Thank you. Yeah, we're so excited to have
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come across you as well. Love what you're.
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Doing so how did you 2 meet were you the two friends in the group
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who like talked about sex openly in a way nobody else did or like
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what brought you 2 together We. Worked at a chiropractic clinic
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like what was probably, what, 7 years ago now?
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Yeah, 878. And we would take like
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extraordinarily long lunch breaks and we would go to the
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Whole Foods hot bar and we'd have like hour and a half
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conversations about sex and relationships and the monogamy
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and dating. And that was like where our
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friendship really formed and solidified.
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It's funny because like we really didn't hang out much at
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that time outside of these like hour and a half paid rent rates.
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You were Co workers, we were Co workers, Co workers who were
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like, let's go get our lunch and stay out for 90 minutes.
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I think we both were opening relationships at this time, and
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so we had a lot in common in that regard.
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Yeah. So we weren't like the friends
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in the group that we were, that we're talking about sex, but we
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were the friends at the office. And did people know that not
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just the friendships, but that you were in like, open
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relationships and you were exploring all of these things?
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I don't think at the beginning, yeah, I don't think it was.
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I think that's why we felt really safe with each other,
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because we realized like, oh, this is the thing I'm doing too.
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Oh, you're doing it too. OK well, what's it like for you?
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And yeah, just sitting there, like picking at the hot bar.
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Really. It was just grazing the bulk
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section. Yeah.
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I'm like using the makeup sample.
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Yeah, we're like, we're like, OK, well, so did he call and you
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know. I swear to God this is such a
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movie meet cute type of thing. Like 2 friends walk around Whole
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Foods talking about their sex lives.
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This was not a work trauma bond. This was a work like Love, Sex,
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freedom, Bond. Yes, no, it was a great work
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environment too, like still are in touch with the people from
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that practice. And so it wasn't a trauma bond.
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And I just remember always after those conversations, like going
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to my boyfriend at the time and being like, I just love Tess so
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much, like this, like so in awe of her.
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And I think, yeah, just like so formative to that part of my
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life and obviously every part since.
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Yeah, We also had some really fun creative projects together.
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We did like video projects. And I remember thinking that you
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were so on top of it with all the production and that you,
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like had so much experience, like creating all these video
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theater, all this stuff. And so I think that also in the
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back of my mind was like, oh, maybe we can do more together.
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And you know, that didn't happen until later, but it definitely
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planted the seed. So you were collaborating on
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other projects before you founded Squirm Together?
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Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my gosh.
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So what is squirm? Squirm Squirm is our sex Ed for
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adults platform and really the focus is sexual communication,
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so helping people just talk more openly about sex.
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So that's sort of like the umbrella mission is just to
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destigmatize the topics of sex and porn.
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Obviously that's a focus area for us and just make these
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conversations a little easier, a little more accessible for
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people kind of it wherever they are in relationships or just
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with their friends to just kind of open it up in general.
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So with that, we have a few different ways that we, you
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know, provide that education or provide those resources for
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people. And we have our very first
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product that we threw out there was an audio course called oral
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hygiene and it's a 10 day sex communication audio course.
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It's designed to be consumed while you brush your teeth,
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hence the name oral hygiene love.
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There's like this, this habit stacking component.
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I think you read the James clear book and you were like habit
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stacking. If you want to learn something
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new, tack it on to something you're already doing.
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People hopefully are brushing their teeth every day.
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Let's just like give them that opportunity to also take in
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these bite sized sex communication lessons.
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So we have that out there. That was kind of when our of our
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first creative projects with Squirm, but we have a
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conversation deck, we have events, we have a podcast, we do
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workshops and tons of just sort of one off collaborations too,
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or different pop up events and things like that.
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But the whole goal is just like, help people, people get out of
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their heads, into their bodies, talking about it with partners,
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with friends, and have fun while doing it.
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How did you make the leap from just being friends and talking
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about it to doing it right? So like you put out a product
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right away, like the product being the course as opposed to
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doing webinars or even like one-on-one talks.
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We stopped working at the chiropractic clinic test went
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first because she went to grad school in Amsterdam to be like a
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certified sex free. That's that's what the degree
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was. God's the designation official.
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No, we yeah. So we stopped working together.
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I went to grad school and Kyle was doing other work and things.
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And then COVID hit. I came back to the US and we
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reconnected, like reconnected his friends.
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But also we were both just kind of itching for a project because
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it's like COVID and I don't know.
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I was committed, something to do with my time.
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And I had also just spent all this time in Amsterdam studying
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sexuality and gender and porn and sex Ed for adults and all
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these things that I just wanted something to do with or do with
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it. Yeah.
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She was involved in all these creative projects here.
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And so we just decided, I remember being on the phone with
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you and I was like, walking through Portland, just some
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meandering COVID walk. And we were like, let's do a,
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like, sexy sex Ed project. Like, let's do sex Ed, but let's
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make it sexy. Let's make it fun.
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Let's bring in some porny elements.
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Let's bring in some Eroticism and make something that people
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are going to want to consume. Not like good dry textbook,
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Yeah, lesson on, you know, the reproductive system, but like,
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really role model what cool sex communication that can look
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like, what hot sex communication look like.
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So we kind of planted the seed for sexy sex Ed.
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And in that moment, I don't think we were thinking like,
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let's start a company. I think we were just like, let's
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do a pandemic project and do something fun.
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Yeah, so cuz my background is like a lot of film and theater
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stuff. And obviously that wasn't
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happening during the pandemic. So we started to kind of like
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sketch out what this sexy sex Ed would look like.
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And I don't remember exactly at what point this happened.
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We had like an Airbnb booked in Mexico and like a couple people
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lined up to do it because it's gonna be like part porn, part
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lecture kind of. And then we zoomed out.
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We were like, is this safe to do still?
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You know, it was like vaccine time, but still kind of like, is
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this safe? This is probably gonna be really
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expensive. Let's maybe pivot.
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Let's like start a brand, start a company, like start releasing
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some blogs, build a website, do just like just kind of build
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that. Tess always says like let's get
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the house ready before we do like big projects.
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So we're gonna like got the house ready and that's when
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squirm really formed as the like umbrella that's been generating
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all the things that have followed.
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So yeah, I think it was like a pivot for wanting to make kind
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of an erotic sex Ed series and that's still on our wish list to
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do at some point. But the.
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Mexico trip. Yeah.
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Yeah, just some sort of fun, yeah, like sexy sex Ed
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educational porn type series. Because that's something I
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discovered in Amsterdam was this whole Edu porn sub genre and it
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kind of blew my mind. Like I had never really seen
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anything like that that I thought was really hot and
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effective. That was inspiration.
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Definitely moving into Squirm was just trying to bring more of
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that energy and more of those resources to people.
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Oh, totally. Because I think so much of
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what's out there, even a lot of the stuff I put out there, I
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feel is very sanitized for consumption because that is the
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standard model for how to educate people about sex,
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because you want to be as objective as possible to make it
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palatable. But yeah, that is in direct
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opposition of actually making it erotic and sex.
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Totally, Yeah, Yeah, I think it was like one of the kind of core
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tenets of what we decided when like everything that we're
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putting out wanted to have. It's like the three E's of like
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educational, entertaining and erotic, even if it's not super
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explicit. I think just having some, I
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guess there was like this idea that for it to be educational,
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it has to be sanitized like you're saying, to like build
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some kind of credibility. And I think that can speak to
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like our just overall squeamishness as a society
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around being sexual people and like, why can't things be hot
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and also teach you stuff in the process?
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What does that look like in practice?
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Right. How do you inject Eroticism into
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education? Well, I think so I'm gonna take
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like our one of our workshops as an example.
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It's like one of my favorite things that we have.
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It's like, So what are you into learning to voice your desire is
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it's the workshop. And you know, it's funny because
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we have this like PowerPoint presentation where we breakdown
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kind of all the different buckets of things that would
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comprise somebody's answer of what they're into.
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But I partially, I think just by virtue of having like a slide
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that has like tease balls, like I want you to use a vibrator on
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my clip before you penetrate me, like just having really specific
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language. It is hot.
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I think when you're speaking about like using these terms
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kind of explicitly, I think there is just kind of a sense of
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Eroticism around that by virtue of what the subject matter is,
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you know? Just even putting words to
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things that we're not used to putting words on or not
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comfortable putting words on brings it out into the open and
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that is sexy. Yeah.
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And just hearing people in the workshop, we always have a part
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where people can read their examples out loud.
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And we, like, strongly encourage them to do it because it's one
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thing to write it, it's a whole other thing to hear yourself say
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it out loud. And it is one of those sort of
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juxtapositions of sexy and clerical.
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When you're like in a room with a PowerPoint with these chairs
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all lined up and fluorescent lighting it all, that is not
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necessarily the sexiest vibe. But you're also hearing yourself
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say these things and like, getting comfortable with the
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sound of your voice, saying dirty words or, yeah, getting
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comfortable just having that come out.
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And I think there's so much value to just putting people in
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a position where they can practice it before they're
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really in the moment or with it before they're like deploying it
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and maybe the higher stakes situation.
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So kind of working in that. Yeah.
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Little bits of Eroticism into what's more classically, an
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educational forum. Yeah, I know because it's
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building in safety too. It's like you are not going to
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fall apart by speaking your desires out loud.
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So like, practice it and like get used to the fact that this
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is not going to end the world for you.
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Yeah, totally. And I think it's like
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contextualizing the level of Eroticism.
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Like at the workshop, it might feel a little more restrained.
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Whereas like with the podcast, you know, we're pulling an audio
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from porn. Like you're able to lean into
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these things like kind of trying to find the right level of like
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how much to push that aspect of sexuality depending on what the
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medium is, so. Yeah, so I deal with a lot of
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kingsters, right? That is, I am the king
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consultant. Most of my clients are kinky, so
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one of the reasons they find it difficult to talk about what
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they're interested in is it's not even been put out in media
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in general. Like they have never seen real
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representation of anything they're into outside of maybe
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fringe porn. Porn that isn't even when they
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were growing up didn't really exist as much as it exists now,
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right? So sometimes in my position I'm
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sort of like, oh, non kinky sex is so much more prevalent.
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So I guess my question to you is, why do you think it's so
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hard for people to talk about sex in general and to speak
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about their desires? I mean, I think you brought up a
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good point there, which is we don't have a ton of role
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modeling, you know, like the, the kinky clients that you have,
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like they're not seeing a ton of role modeling and the media that
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they consume, the non fringe porn that they might watch.
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It's I think we're such social language sponges that we, we
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soap up what we consume and what we are immersed in.
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And when we don't have those sort of scripts that we can hear
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and that we can then internalize think for better or for worse,
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you know, like sometimes the way we internalize what's around us
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is can be harmful. But when we don't have that in a
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sort of holistically sexual way, then we're left just trying to
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figure it out. Like in our heads, you know,
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and, and there's so many other things that are role modeled to
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us, like talking about your career.
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There's so many options when you're in school or with your
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friends or your parents or people in your life to like talk
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about jobs. What do they do for work?
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What do you like to do? All that is just kind of like
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out in the open. And we don't necessarily have a
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hard time. It's not awkward to talk about
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like what you like about your job.
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You know, it's just out there, I think.
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In fact, it's encouraged to talk about your career, make that
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part of your identity, and then positively about it to everyone
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who will listen. Or like what you like to cook.
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You know, there isn't a lot of role modelling.
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And I think the reason there isn't a lot of role modelling is
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that just in general, we have a very baseline puritanical
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society that is very uncomfortable with the topic of
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sex and like to control the narrative around sex.
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And so if there isn't much of that out there for us to access,
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then, you know, there isn't that threat to what that might offer
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us as a people. We are language sponges, right?
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So visually we may be given a ton of input, like into our
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brains of of sexualized imagery, even whether it's kinky or not,
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but the language is rarely paired with it.
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So we're really lapped, confused.
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Yeah, I think that's a big part of why we've kind of zeroed on
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on the communication piece of sex because sex Ed is very kind
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of underdeveloped education system in our society in
15:10
general. I think in high school, middle
15:11
school, like formal school, educators don't really want to
15:14
touch like the topic of what turns you on, what feels good
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and not saying they should. I think there's like legit
15:21
reasons and liabilities for that could be improved, but parents
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may not want to touch that with their kids either.
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So it's kind of like where do they get the that information?
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You know, at that age, it's like peer-to-peer, which is like,
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clunky, kind of like best scenario and like, dangerous
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worst case scenario, right? Yeah.
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Like depending on kind of how bold someone's feeling, it can,
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it can be either really awkward or bad.
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And then with the communication stuff, it's like people do turn
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to porn, but very rarely in porn are you going to see the
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communication between two people negotiating their boundaries or
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what they're into or like what their hard lines are, that
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stuff. Those conversations are probably
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happening on set, but that's on the cutting room floor because
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it's, you know, often to promote this kind of spontaneous in the
16:07
moment fantasy, as is mainstream depictions of sex just in
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movies. So it's like there's really just
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not a lot of places where you're able to like understand how
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those kind of conversations can even happen.
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Then you become an adult and you feel like, well, never learned
16:24
that. Everyone else seems to know it.
16:25
So you just kind of like fig it till you make it and it just a
16:29
lot of us just never really get to understand how to put that
16:31
into practice. Hey, if you're loving this
16:34
episode or honestly even just vibing with the podcast overall,
16:38
go ahead and tap that five star rating.
16:40
It takes 2 seconds and it really helps us grow this kinky little
16:43
corner of the world. Because that's what we're
16:45
building here, right? A space to feel seen, get
16:47
curious, and explore, all from the privacy of our own
16:50
headphones. And if something made you laugh,
16:53
cringe, gasp, or pause to reflect, drop a comment.
16:56
I want to know what stuck with you or shocked you.
16:59
The Faka Tea mega thing is so real.
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Like, I mean, I did it as well. I started at a slightly earlier
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age with the king stuff because again I was like I don't know
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why I'm into what I'm into but I know what I need.
17:09
So like but there was nowhere to get the information from lying
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blind. And.
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To your point that we all go through that evolution, it's
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very rare to have someone just know it all.
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And then we all gravitate towards the friends.
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Yeah, I would like the three of us, right.
17:24
We were like. The sex friends.
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That's our that was our role to like, know about these things.
17:31
And then we took it seriously and we became sponges for
17:34
everything we could figure out. And now we do what we do.
17:37
I mean, I think one reason I love the porn element to it all,
17:40
and something that we're trying to do with squirm is just offer
17:43
porn as one of those resources. I know porn is not supposed to
17:47
be sex Ed. It's generally never intended to
17:49
be sex Ed. It's this entertainment, sexy,
17:53
fun fantasy that we can turn to. And that's true, but also
17:57
because it's kind of generally uncouth to just like talk openly
18:02
about sex and all scenarios. It is a place where people can
18:06
go to get some of that role modeling.
18:08
And there are aspects of porn or sub genres of porn that do a
18:11
pretty excellent job of providing some of that sexual
18:15
communication role modeling for people that like, we didn't get
18:18
that. We were kind of, you know, left
18:20
us searching for in the dark, like we're trying to figure out
18:24
how to get what we wanted with a partner.
18:25
So kind of like D stigmatizing porn, helping people remember
18:29
it's not all one thing and it's not all what most people are
18:32
probably picking picturing when they just like think about porn,
18:35
you know, like there's actually a ton that can offer us to help
18:38
us increase our vocabularies and get more comfortable with our
18:42
partners and, and all of that. Well, we're fighting a current
18:45
battle where porn is demonized, and there are states right now
18:49
that aren't allowing people to access porn without proof of ID.
18:53
And then there are foreign sites that are.
18:55
They're like, Nah, fuck it, none of your people get this because
18:58
we're not playing this game. Yeah, obviously you guys are
19:01
located in Portland, OR. Yeah, You're not one of the
19:04
states dealing with that. I mean, Nevada also not one of
19:06
the states dealing with it. But I also fear sometimes it's
19:09
just a matter of time until we're all dealing with that.
19:11
How do you combat that narrative around porn being bad?
19:16
I want to start there because I want, like, we could have made
19:18
the entire episode about this, but like, the first thing that
19:21
pops out is so many people are against it.
19:23
I think that the first step is to be like porn isn't bad.
19:26
We spent 6 episodes on this with our podcast.
19:30
I heard him because there's so much to unpack.
19:33
I I think from my perspective, a lot of it is the first step in
19:37
kind of combating that narrative is, is like validating some of
19:41
the reasons why people do feel that way, right?
19:44
Like it's not kind of like the main spoiler alert conclusion of
19:49
the show that and for porn nerds was like, this is a really
19:52
nuanced topic. There are certainly
19:56
manifestations and expressions of how people, how porn presents
19:59
in people's lives that like might not feel healthy or good
20:02
for them. And so.
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I think like any good conversation, it's important to
20:06
like, address and understand where that stuff is coming from.
20:10
But then I think you have to start to kind of peel back the
20:12
layers to see like, OK, well, how much of this is porn as a
20:16
whole? How much of this is the type of
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porn that's being watched? How much of this is like the
20:20
porn production practices? How much of this is like just
20:23
the Internet and our ability to kind of like, easily slide into
20:27
habits that don't feel good to us because we have like, I could
20:30
pull up a million porn sites right now in the next 30 seconds
20:32
on my phone? Like literally how do we
20:34
attribute the things that are making this force feel negative
20:38
in people's lives? Because, yeah, like, it can feel
20:40
really out of control for some people.
20:42
Also, how much of like our kind of reflux porn bad thing has to
20:47
do with that puritanical culture that we're swimming in, has to
20:50
do with being in sex negative society, has to do with our own
20:52
kind of shame and embarrassment about our desires.
20:55
So word soup, but. No, not word soup.
20:58
It was not. It was so heavy because I'm just
21:01
thinking about there are so many insecurities that that come with
21:03
porn too, because you are shown the really muscular man with the
21:06
perfect cock, perfect in quotes by the way, like perfect cock,
21:10
the woman with the again quote, perfect body, right?
21:13
And I think that that can be quite intimidating to people as
21:16
well. So that is mixed into it as well
21:18
of the specimen of person in front of you and also the person
21:22
who says the perfect thing or acts the right way and does the
21:26
exact thing someone's imagining because it's geared towards one
21:30
person. All of these things were cut
21:31
popping into my mind as you went through it.
21:33
Like it's multifaceted, like the reason demonize it.
21:37
But also therein also lies why it's great.
21:39
You know it's a fantasy world you can escape into as long as
21:42
you realize you're in that fantasy world.
21:44
That's exactly it is like the the sort of porn literacy piece
21:48
to It is like being able to put porn in its context as fantasy,
21:52
as entertainment, which we do with a lot of other forms of
21:55
media. We don't really have a problem
21:57
determined or did, Yeah, determining whether Vin Diesel
22:01
is like, what every dude is going to look like or just what
22:04
this action hero looks like. You know, it's it's easier for
22:07
us to contextualize movies that we see or other, you know, ads
22:12
that we see and say, OK, like, that movie is really fun to
22:16
watch. I'm gonna leave the theater and
22:18
be like titillated and excited about whatever Captain America
22:22
just did. But I don't really expect my
22:24
boyfriend to, like, drive our car out of a, you know,
22:27
helicopter and whatever. Yeah.
22:29
It's just a completely different context than our reality.
22:32
And that context is such anxiety reliever because you're not
22:35
expecting those things. You're extending your reality
22:39
for this fantasy experience and you can enjoy it.
22:41
And then you reenter reality and you're like, all right, that's
22:44
not, that's just not what you know, this is actually like.
22:47
And that's OK with porn. There's no one telling you when
22:51
you're 12 years old or 45 years old, like, hey, that thing
22:55
you're watching is super hot. But like, that's not actually
22:58
what it has to be like, you know, don't worry.
23:01
Don't put pressure on yourself. Don't freak out if that's not
23:04
what your body looks like or that's not what the sex you have
23:06
looks like. That's just a way to entertain
23:08
you and get you off. You know, no one's like writing
23:11
shotgun with you to tell you that.
23:13
So you end up watching this stuff and then wondering like,
23:16
well, fuck, like, that's not what it's like for me.
23:19
Or is that what she's gonna expect?
23:21
You know all that stuff, and there's nowhere to really put
23:23
those anxieties to bed. Yeah, or even if someone is
23:27
telling you that, it's like, I feel like maybe in high school
23:30
someone told me like porn's not what real sex is.
23:33
OK, but then like, what is real sex?
23:35
Like you don't have really data points kind of at the ready to
23:39
be able to compare it to like you would with Fast and the
23:41
Furious, where it's like, that's not what driving's like.
23:44
And then you go and you drive to school and you like see what
23:46
driving's like. Like you're not watching other
23:48
people have real quote, UN quote, real sex.
23:50
So it's like you, even if someone does say that to you.
23:54
Yeah, you don't. Where do you, where do you go
23:57
from there? You know it's.
23:58
Impossible to play RE like navigate that context.
24:01
Honestly, as you're describing that, I'm thinking that's
24:03
probably why American Pie popped off of teenage sex was perfectly
24:10
displayed in that movie. But like Speaking of media, you
24:13
know, part of me is hopeful that we're having conversations like
24:16
this today that in the future it might get easier for kids to
24:19
understand, especially in a world of AI where they're going
24:22
to grow up knowing you have to question everything you see and
24:25
know like it. It might not be real.
24:27
Do you remember that story about Gilligan's Island?
24:29
That when that show was doing really well, the US Coast Guard
24:32
was getting actual written letters saying go save these
24:35
people because people are. Yes, the American population
24:40
wasn't so used to TV that they like.
24:42
They didn't realize. Not everyone realized that was a
24:45
TV show, and that wasn't like reality TV, like the news
24:49
capturing what was happening. Oh my.
24:51
God, that's amazing. That's what we're describing
24:54
right now with porn. Like people just think like what
24:57
they're watching is the real thing that's happening for
25:00
everybody else. And I guess it's sort of a
25:02
keeping up with the Joneses thing.
25:03
We all want to pretend like we're just as far ahead as
25:06
everyone else, but then when the benchmark is this like fantasy
25:09
world, you can't be, and then no one's talking about it to tell
25:13
you what it really is exactly. Yeah, all want to be normal,
25:16
whatever that is. Nobody really knows what normal
25:19
is, you know, and there isn't really one normal.
25:21
But we're all like chasing this sort of sexual normal.
25:24
And porn is the most available, most ubiquitous example of sex.
25:29
So it's like, all right, I guess that's normal.
25:32
And then it just, yeah, us all up from there.
25:34
But then I think it gets even more fucked up because it's
25:36
like, I also do think porn is a great resource to draw
25:40
inspiration from for how to like ways to have sex and new things
25:43
that you want to try with a partner.
25:44
So it's like you kind of have to talk out of both sides of your
25:47
mouth in this conversation and say, like, this is not sex Ed.
25:50
This is do not just like copy, paste, repeat whatever you're
25:53
seeing. But also because of the nature
25:56
of this content, you're going to get to see stuff that you don't
25:58
really have access to in other mediums.
26:01
So like you see somebody choking somebody like maybe there is a
26:04
way to like be inspired by that and bring it to a partner.
26:08
But there has to be this chunk of like this middle step that's
26:12
often on the cutting room floor of like, well, how do you choke
26:15
someone safely? Do you feel comfortable with
26:17
that? Are you into it?
26:18
Like they're half where? Do you like the hands on you?
26:20
Yeah. How do you like all the
26:22
specifics? Right to get you there.
26:25
And so it's like it is an amazing tool to learn about what
26:28
you want to do sexually, but just you have to talk about it
26:32
first. Absolutely.
26:33
And I have sent very specific porn to partners to be like,
26:37
here's a really good video of somebody getting spanked and I
26:40
really like how the lecture goes.
26:42
And yeah, so like, I haven't porn in that way.
26:45
Like, here's a visual aid, let's talk about it.
26:48
And I encourage my clients to do the same.
26:50
I have them send me porn that they enjoy so that we can
26:53
dissect what their fantasy is and how they can achieve it and
26:56
relay that to a partner. Yeah, totally.
26:59
Yeah, No, completely amazing tool for that.
27:02
It really is. It's not what it's made for.
27:04
That's not its #1 use. But I'm going to tell you those
27:06
visual aids and being able to dissect it and say, like, what
27:09
did you like about it? And then helping people discover
27:12
that in their own sex life or inject that into their own sex
27:14
life. Yeah, I know.
27:15
Sure. We were just talking to somebody
27:17
today. It's like a potential
27:18
collaboration partner. And an example they've brought
27:21
up is like somebody who wants their partner to take more
27:23
control. And I think that that like
27:26
bringing that to a partner feels like hard because maybe you're
27:29
more submissive. And so you don't really know
27:31
like how you want your partner to take control of you, but you
27:33
know, you want it. But like, how do you instruct
27:36
that? And if you instruct like I want
27:38
you to sort of dominate in this way, then you feel like you're
27:40
not really being submissive in that moment.
27:42
And so I think especially for those scenarios, it's so nice to
27:45
be like, like, this is really hot to me because like she's
27:48
restrained or this is really hot to me because of what the
27:50
partner is saying, like those different elements because just
27:54
like take control is like, I mean, gosh, there's so many
27:57
different ways somebody can take control of you, right?
27:59
And if you hit the wrong one, if you're like Violet and they
28:02
don't want that, they just want to be like a pillow Princess,
28:05
then it's like could really be traumatizing, you know?
28:08
But also take control might not mean sex at all.
28:10
It might in the foreplay. Yeah.
28:12
Dominant role might not mean anything in the sex world or in
28:16
the bedroom. You know what I mean?
28:18
Yeah, that is why kink is so complicated, because when people
28:21
say, oh, I'm dominant, I find a lot of men not to gender, but
28:24
this is what I'm finding. A lot of men say I'm dominant.
28:27
And what they really mean is sexually dominant.
28:29
And they like to take control of everything that happens, like on
28:32
the mattress, right. A woman said she's looking for a
28:34
dominant man. She's looking for the praise
28:37
kink, the someone paying attention to them and like
28:40
seeing different parts of them throughout the day and calling
28:43
them out, right? And that's that person taking
28:45
control. We're even in this world where
28:48
we identify as kinky. We sometimes speak different
28:50
languages. Yes, totally, totally.
28:53
I feel like our just general sexual vocabulary needs like
28:56
1000 more words at least, you know?
28:59
And just like the nuance that's involved in these dynamics and
29:02
these feelings and these desires is like, it's really beautiful,
29:06
unconfusing experience to have, you know, whether it's kinky or
29:10
not, just to be kind of like navigating what turns you on
29:13
with this person might not turn you on with this person.
29:15
Why is that? You know, what turns me on this
29:17
month might not turn me on as much next month.
29:20
Why is that? There's just so many layers to
29:22
it. But when you are left with not a
29:24
lot of words, not a lot of opportunities to talk, then it
29:26
all just kind of gets jumbled into like, I'm not really sure
29:29
what I want or how to get it. And that's, you know, make
29:32
people really just kind of freeze up and feel so defeated,
29:35
too, which is hard. That is really hard because then
29:38
maybe they try the thing and it doesn't work.
29:41
And then once again, there's not a lot of language to discuss
29:44
conflict. And that is true not only in
29:46
sex, but outside of sex, too. Yeah, I don't think we're taught
29:50
the language to handle conflict and work through it in the same
29:53
way. Yeah, just kind of boundaries
29:54
are your needs and how to uphold them and be kind and listen
29:58
well. Like I think all the things that
30:00
come along with talking about sex openly and honestly
30:04
translate out to the rest of our lives really well.
30:08
And or can you know, in terms of just being attuned to someone,
30:11
listening, knowing yourself, knowing how to stand up for
30:14
yourself, Like all of that has this ripple effect when you
30:17
practice it. And I think the other way around
30:18
too, like you can practice in other parts of life and bring it
30:21
into your sex life. It doesn't have to start with
30:23
sex by any means, but it's very transferable skills.
30:26
It's on my resume for sure. So like one of the things though
30:31
we're talking about is conversation.
30:33
You also have a card deck that kind of helps with that too,
30:37
right? So is it get squirmy?
30:39
It's get squirmy. Yeah, OK.
30:41
When did you release it? Like tell me about the process
30:44
of making it and like what made it in?
30:47
What didn't make it in to get squirmy?
30:49
We started with a card that called Nookie, which had a
30:52
limited release like 2 years ago probably, and we sold through
30:57
those and then kind of it was like sort of our beta test.
31:00
So we just got to pull a bunch of people like what the favorite
31:03
questions were, reassessed and then added in some fresh ones.
31:07
We also kind of play tested a lot of these questions at our
31:11
like semi basically monthly event series where we would just
31:14
get to put them on tables and people would rotate around the
31:17
room and get to answer the questions.
31:19
So we got to get some really good data from that of seeing
31:22
what stations really popped, you know, Yeah, bring it out to all
31:27
of our parties. All social event became get
31:31
squirmy night nookie night. Yeah, or once we just went to a
31:35
bar and walked up to random table of friends and we're like,
31:38
hey, do you guys want to just play this game?
31:40
And yeah. I literally love.
31:42
That yeah, so it's 90 cards about sex and intimacy and it's
31:47
all it's intentionally designed to be for people that you're
31:51
dating, that you're sleeping with or for friends.
31:53
So it doesn't it's not like about your relationship.
31:56
It's not troubleshooting. It's not like, OK, this is about
31:59
S calls. So really easy to kind of bring
32:02
it into a lot of different contexts.
32:04
And I think the friendship piece has resonated really well with
32:08
people like the the ability to work it into friend hangs
32:11
because a lot of the couples decks out there are couples
32:15
decks. And like the sex questions are
32:17
about you as a couple. And, you know, if we're going to
32:20
try to make sex easier to talk about, part of that is just with
32:23
your gals, you know, or with like anybody in your life.
32:26
And so getting to make a deck that's accessible to anyone and
32:31
in any real context is has been like really important for us to
32:34
put out there. And then we try to kind of vary
32:37
the experience with it, too. So some of the cards are pretty
32:40
explicit, pretty sexy, pretty squirmy.
32:42
And then some of them are, you know, more emotional in tone and
32:45
like, a little more thoughtful and a little more reflective.
32:48
And then some of them are just like, really silly.
32:49
Like one of my favorites is find 2 nearby objects and describe
32:53
the sexual tension they have with each other.
32:55
I love that. Or like, find a nearby object
32:58
and pitch it to me as a sex toy. You know, just like it gets
33:00
weird and silly, but it's low stakes and it's just a way to
33:03
have fun and you can veto anytime you want.
33:06
Had a lot of fun with that and it did become the basis of our
33:09
event series. But then just kind of get people
33:11
intentionally together in groups to have these types of
33:14
conversations. And we like, you know, we'll use
33:15
the deck as inspiration, but then expand and bring in all new
33:18
sorts of conversation prompts and different themes and just,
33:21
you know, try to work it in that way.
33:23
Yeah, I mean, the deck really does sound like it spans the
33:25
range of intimacy and what intimacy is, because it can just
33:29
be those hot sexual moves or it can be those more emotional
33:32
questions to, I guess the sexual tension between two objects, you
33:35
know what I mean? Like.
33:37
You know these objects share. Yeah, my favorite testimonial
33:40
I've ever received. I played with, I have like a
33:42
close group of guy friends and there was four guys in me and we
33:45
were playing and afterwards my friend is like, wow.
33:47
Like, I don't know. I've just never got to like hang
33:50
with my Bros and learn how they like their blowies.
33:52
You know, I read get some more feedback at the events too.
33:56
Like I think being able to talk about sex with friends, like I
34:00
don't, this might be just in the circles that I run in or the
34:02
people that we kind of talked to, but it's like a lot of
34:04
girlfriends have learned to have these like converse, emotional
34:07
deeper conversations. But generally speaking, a lot of
34:10
the men that I've talked to have said like they just don't really
34:13
talk about sex that way or like troubleshoot the like emotional
34:17
elements of sex or like any insecurities.
34:19
Like I think it's a lot less common.
34:21
And so we've heard from a lot of men that have played the deck or
34:23
been to the events that like, it's just so nice to have a
34:25
space to do that and can feel maybe less intimidating than
34:28
always talking about it with a partner.
34:30
Like maybe that's a companion, it's a supplement, It's a
34:33
supplemental way that you can talk about sexuality with a
34:36
different stake than if it's like a person that you're
34:38
fucking in front of you. You know, I hear that a lot and
34:40
I always think that I think it evolved from women talking out
34:43
of safety. You know, like we we need to
34:45
find safety so we create community around it.
34:48
And I just don't think men had that motivation society put on
34:51
them to be like the ones in charge or the instigator.
34:54
So to them it was probably just like admitting anything was
34:58
wrong was probably a lot less societally accepted.
35:01
Whereas for women, I always think it's a safety thing.
35:03
Yeah, that really that is an excellent point.
35:06
Just kind of talking, shining light on how women have always
35:09
kind of had these small groups or like how gossip starts, you
35:13
know, like ways of just sharing information that will help us
35:17
keep us pay for, like help us navigate the world when maybe
35:20
the external structures don't or didn't the same way As for men.
35:24
I love that. I work with a lot of men too and
35:27
then you know, I realize they're coming to me because they don't
35:29
feel safe talking about it. So safety is often the motivator
35:33
for conversation starter. I do have a question about your
35:35
in person events. First of all, Portland, OR from
35:38
the outside seems like the most advanced forward thinking
35:42
liberal city in the whole country, right?
35:45
You find that that is true for the people who come to your
35:49
events? Like are you attracting the
35:50
average Portland type? That is, you know, that's like
35:53
that's the stereotype. I'm asking you, is the
35:55
stereotype true? Yes and no.
35:57
I think there's definitely this, you know, very progressive,
36:01
strong sex positive, strong Poly crew here in Portland for sure.
36:06
And then you have everybody else and every kind of person for
36:10
sure. And I think what I've found with
36:11
our events is it really depends on the venue.
36:14
It depends on our event partner and kind of which communities
36:17
we're tapping into. Sometimes we get people at our
36:20
events that seem pretty advanced in their sexual communication
36:24
skills or in their kink or sex knowledge and they're just like
36:27
out to have a good time and meet new people and it's less sort of
36:30
a stretch for them. And then sometimes we have
36:33
events where people are kind of more squirm, curious, and
36:36
they're like, I've never done anything like this before.
36:38
And it's, it is a stretch. And it's like a vulnerable thing
36:41
to show up and talk to strangers about sex and dating,
36:44
relationships and all that stuff.
36:45
So I think like, yes, there's certainly that stereotype that
36:48
we see and then there's there's everything.
36:51
Yeah, totally. OK, so if someone were to come
36:53
visit Portland, they would not be out of place no to an event?
36:57
No, absolutely no. Yeah.
36:58
And we have like a series called the Group Chat and that's like
37:02
squirm level 1. So we get, it's like kind of
37:05
anybody, welcome to time, you'll get something out of it no
37:08
matter what. Really low pressure, low stakes,
37:11
very, very, very fun. We do them every month.
37:14
We do events at Soho House. And so that's also just like a
37:16
really different audience for us.
37:18
And we're doing more like parties and kind of deeper level
37:22
squirm stuff to come in the next summer and spring as well.
37:25
All right, awesome. And if I wanted to go find one
37:27
of these, because Portland is not that far from Las Vegas.
37:30
So I'm already thinking like, yeah.
37:36
We have it all our website, so we have a tab that's events and
37:39
that just shows everything that's coming up.
37:40
So getscoreme.com probably forward slash events.
37:43
Yeah, OK, getscoreme.com, but I recommend you just go to
37:46
getscoreme.com and dive into the podcast, the deck, and just the
37:51
site overall. It is beautiful.
37:53
It is informative. I loved it.
37:54
Check it out. And that brings me to my final
37:56
point. I want to wrap back around to
37:58
the podcast. Like there's information in
38:00
there that I really want people to understand too about like
38:03
porn not being demonized and just understanding it on a
38:06
deeper. You have 6 episodes out that
38:08
was. Yeah, yeah.
38:11
So we decided we wanted to do this porn series and help people
38:15
get more comfortable with the topic, help them kind of learn
38:18
more about what actually happens in the porn industry, different
38:21
types of porn that are out there.
38:22
We include a mixture of experts, like we talked to a journalist
38:28
who writes all about the business of the porn industry,
38:30
which is super interesting, and like a sex therapist who deals
38:33
with a lot of clients who feel like they have porn addiction.
38:36
And then we talked to directors and performers in the industry.
38:39
We talked to there's people who work in like porn literacy for
38:43
teens and, and just kind of try to get at this huge topic from a
38:47
lot of different perspectives. And it was never our intent to
38:51
try to persuade anyone to feel a certain way about porn or try to
38:54
prescribe any sort of habit around porn.
38:57
It's really just like there's so much to say.
38:59
There's so many people who know a ton about this and who work in
39:03
the industry or outside the industry with like their
39:05
expertise. So we bring that, and then I
39:07
think one of my favorite things is we just have sound bites and
39:10
anecdotes from like, a ton of just regular people, right?
39:13
Like, yeah, who watch porn or don't have strong feelings about
39:17
it, have funny things to say or powerful things to say.
39:20
And we sprinkle that through. And then, of course, we host and
39:23
we try to bring in some of the, like, nerdy stats and funny
39:26
banter and just personalize it. It's really supposed to be like
39:30
this sort of porn literacy audio journey that, like, teaches you
39:33
a lot about the industry, hopefully quell some anxieties
39:36
about it, hopefully helps you answer some questions you might
39:38
have about porn in your life or your relationships.
39:41
And then, like, we'll give you some, yeah, very entertaining
39:44
little sound bites about what's happening in, like, the weird
39:47
Wide world. Of porn, porn.
39:49
And it is. It is a weird, yeah, very wide
39:52
world. Yes, yeah.
39:54
Well, Tess and Kells, thank you so much for joining.
39:57
For everyone who listened, I highly encourage you to go to
40:00
get squirmy.com to check it all out.
40:03
Thank you both so much for joining.
40:05
Yeah. Thank you.
40:06
It's really fun. So, and for everybody listening
40:09
who wants to get their own Get Squirmy card deck, check the
40:12
show notes for the discount code.
40:16
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave
40:18
a review and share it with anyone who might find it
40:20
interesting. And if you have any questions or
40:22
topics you'd like me to cover in future episodes, feel free to
40:25
reach out e-mail info@thekingconsultant.com.
40:29
Until next time, keep on Kinkin on.