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Paleobotánica, una aproximación a la domesticación de las plantas · El futuro fue ayer con Juan Guillermo Martín

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Welcome to the podcast. The future was yesterday. I' m with Guillermo
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Martin, archaeologist. Today we are going to talk about a key theme for
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the development and adaptation of human beings to different environments so n n n s
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N of evolutionary process that we know as domestication. On this occasion we will
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devote ourselves to plants to talk about it. I have a very special guest.
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This is Francisco Javier Aceituno Boca Negra, Javier Welcome hello Juan Guillermo.
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Thank you so much for being here with you. For those who do not
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know him, Javier Aceituno is a prehistorian and PhD in archaeology of America from
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the Complutense University of Madrid, Professor of the University of Antioquia and one of
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the pioneers in Colombia of archaeology through the study of plant microrests. He has
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devoted much of his academic career to research into early settlement and plant domestication on
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the American continent. It has numerous projects in its charge and a large intellectual
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production associated with this topic. So, Javier, in order to get into
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matter, we would have to explain to the audience what the domestication of plants
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is all about, how this process happens. All right, Juan Guillermo,
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that' s a big question to start this conversation, because domestication, because
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it has many meanings, but in a simple but precise way, was a
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process of selection carried out by human beings for a long time. That is
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very important that what produced were new types of plants, new types of plants
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that in order to continue to live, to continue to reproduce, needed the
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human being. So this was, in the first place, a whole long
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- term process. This wasn' t overnight. Two of these human groups,
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speaking of a temporal and archaeological perspective like the one we' re talking
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about, they didn' t at first have to say clearly that they were
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domesticating. Domestication is a very our concept with which we are looking to the
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past these individuals, men and women, what they were doing. From a
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perspective, we are going to take a very pragmatic view. Go selecting,
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let' s say the best individuals and select them. Let' s say
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it for a better harvest? To ensure a better harvest. That is why
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this process of selection of bed bed was one of everyday events, but with
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long- term effects, which is what scientists look at. And in that
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process of lecturing for many, for a long time, time will depend on
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the types of plants, because over time a relationship of dependence between plants and
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human beings was created, that is, human beings from a historical perspective,
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because obviously we have been dependent in this case on plants. We can also
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add the animals for our food, but in turn, dogmeticated plants will also
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start to remain a dependency to continue to reproduce. In fact, plants and
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domesticated animals. One of the characteristics is that they need the human being to
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continue perpetuating. So we see that, for example, with plants we see
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it very well. Obviously, there are concepts of what plants and animals can
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become feral when they are forested, but a harvest, a plant, a
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cornfield, a wheat crop, a vineyard, you leave it after three or
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four years, that' s already weed and it' s already dead.
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Then it' s a very interesting thing. There is another very important point
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when we scientists refer to domestication, and it is what is the result of
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that process I really like the process because, as an archaeologist, it is
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what we can study. This is not without difficulties, but the consequence,
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for example, biological, of this process is what is called domesticated plants and
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animals, which is called the domestication syndrome, which is the research syndrome.
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In two words, they are already changes at the level of the morphotype,
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the morphology and the genotype. Of course, they are not dependent then on
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what nature offers in its life cycles, but a certain control over its food
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production is guaranteed by that relationship and the domestication process that is given. And
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that' s where we get into the subject of archaeological registration. And finally,
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from archaeology, from paleobotany, how we study or identify those plants that
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were exploited by humans from the past. You talk about pollen phytoliths, starches,
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but that' s what that is? How to explain those microbotanical elements
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to those who listen to us is worth John, I' m going to
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start like this at the end. We used to talk about domesticated plants,
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ovesticated syndrome, transformed plants. We' re going to give it a name
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like corn, which is the most studied plant by all, by genetic botanists.
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Every archaeologist wants to find the corn. Why. Because when you find
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corn it' s domesticated, okay it goes into that category and solves our
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problems a lot, because something we know, as we said, that domesticated
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plants we' re going to say need the human being. Time to stay
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there. They need the human being. You can put it clear then the
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archaeologists. Archaeology in America has traditionally pursued much. The corn' s been
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looking for him because of his impacts. So, when you find seed corn
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grains, the seed of the mae when you find it, we say,
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well, it solves many problems, because it says corn. You know there
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' s some kind of agriculture. I' m going to say pre-
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Hispanic in the past, pre- Hispanic, because American corn. So,
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well, they solve a lot of problems for you. Traditionally, what was
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sought was said as very evident, very evident vestiges, but well, thirty
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years ago, archaeology, archaeology in the American continent, in the world as
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well, but in America, it has become very strong. So, what
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archaeology, helped by other auxiliary sciences, we said, has developed several methods
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to look for plants, to try to deduce that there could be plant cultures,
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domestication processes. So they' re different Heras shapes, they' re
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different entrance doors to get even missing, answering the same question. Then how
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can we say concatenating with the question before me there are different remains of plants.
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We have spoken, for example, of a charred seed. A charred
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seed is very charred. I say this because, for example, in Colombian
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territory, in much of America it charred, which allows you a very good
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preservation. Many of the remains we found are already charred. But we have
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other kinds of vestiges. Plant micro- rests or plant microfossils are micrometric particles.
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That' s very important, that is, archaeologists a priori you'
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re not finding you can' t b but there are many there We already
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said ways to recover. They' re not complicated at all, but they
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are. We have come to help much to look for plants, plants,
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archaeological studies, what types of micro plant remains or microscopic plant remains. One,
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polyg the pole, obviously, because pollen is something well known to everyone.
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But pole let us say what it allows us to say. Pollen is
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preserved very well. It stratifies on the ground. When I say, it
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stratifies, because the pollen rain is deposited in the land of Pollenka and it
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goes and is preserved and pollen of thousands of years. What' s going
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on is that pollen is a very fingerprint. It is a very good fingerprint
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of what the landscape was like, in vegetative terms, in terms of plants,
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in terms of coverages. Then, of course, give me one at
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the pole. I can see having a very complete, very integral look at
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the plants that were there at the time. When I say that moment five
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thousand years ago, six thousand years ago, then I can say it'
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s a print of attiring a moment in the past of what it was like.
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Let' s just say how they were formed. Here, there was
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a savannah, there was a dry forest, there was a wet forest,
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there was a mountain forest. Then he gave me a very complete picture.
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What happens if people, groups in the polling, I can identify those plants
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that I used to tell them one of the first steps is to select useful
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plants. So, when people, for example, are starting to say these
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selection processes that one could find, what one would expect in the studies of
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putting these useful plants, for example, food plants. We should find them
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there because if before what I told them before, obviously you' re not
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there. You have to grow out of your dorm room, you go out
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into the natural space, where you have to put those plants. Let'
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s say you have to put it. So clear in pollen studies are very
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interesting, because you can do a trace in this case tell the love of
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all these useful plants and, obviously, as we said earlier, it'
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s one of the first things we need to track the domestication processes. When
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the domestication relationships begin, then in Poling it is very, very, very
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important. In addition, the plants obviously produce millions of polling. That'
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s very interesting. So, well, inside the pollen records I can see
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we' d find the plants useful. But also, what we said earlier,
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the polem also reflects allows me to have an integral vision, which is
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an integral vision. If, for example, I' m using fire at
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certain times, we were a strategy in Australia. We know this from the
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Australian clocity of our work on the use of fire. Let' s say
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for a way of managing the landscape. We are here also in archaeology,
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including ethnographic studies, girls from agriculture, tropical forests, grave forests and burning,
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for example. So what happens if there are processes of saying it that
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way, of deforestation, obviously, on a scale of a pre- Hispanic
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society. I could also find it in the register of paul en. What
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' s the impact, what' s the impact, how it' s
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transforming human groups, the whole landscape depending, in this case, on what
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we were talking about, because depending on what it' s like to put
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some plants or grow some plants. Then there' s something very, very
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important evidence. The pollen that' s very well known, no, but
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then we have what' s called phytoliths. Fritolites are microscopic particles, they
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are silica crystals that create the squares, to put it very simply. So
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what happens those syglise crystals have different shapes. It' s a very interesting
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reverse, very nice. It is the same as the case of the Polet
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Each plant produces a type of phytolith or a type of pollen Then these microscopic
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particles, which are also preserved very well again using this concept, become a
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footprint of axillary types of plants. And, obviously, because that' s
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what allows us, let' s say, what allows us to find,
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find these plants. What about the phytoliths. Being silica is preserved very well.
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Then what' s up? I' ve got an example, I
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don' t know a culture of what a polyculture is. Then the plant
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dies, but the phytolith remains because it is crystal and besides, it is
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very nice, because the glass is heavy. Then he falls down and gets
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into the ground. I say this because there are times when good I won
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' t get into this. The polet flies, you get, it can
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go very far, you can, it can disperse, but if I have
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a crop, I harvest is very good. I can take, for example,
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the cereals, which we all have very clear, no, because I
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take the seeds, the pods, the cereal and I can leave the rest
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of the stem, the bracts, the leaves, because all that dies,
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becomes phytoliths and goes to earth. So it' s very interesting the phytoliths.
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Then these crystals, because they allow me again, because to make an
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identification also of identification rections of the plants or if they bring the phytoliths to
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the house. I mean, if you take plants to places, say where
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we live, how we do, we don' t take plants, no,
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then what happens, because the plant can disappear, obviously. But those
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little crystals are going to get into the land of archaeologists, because when,
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obviously, we do in our excavations, in addition to the ceramic vessels and
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other things that we take out, we keep the little land and in that
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land, because we are going to find these particles, we are, we
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find these particles that come inside the earth. And then there are starches,
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another concept like pole, another very well- known concept, because obviously,
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what are starches have many uses today. Isn' t then the starches are
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carbohydrates? What happens to those carbohydrates that are preserved also very well happens the
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same as pollen and cytoliths, and that happens the same as with pollin and
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pitoliths, then they also become another tilar footprint of the plant type. But
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what about starches, if they have a particularity. Let us say the almonds,
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the cassava, let us say the mantíoca, not the minas or sweet
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potatoes, which are well known, or the cubes, the savanna of Luyuku
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bogota. All those are rhizomes, they' re themes or tubers. Those
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are full of starches. First it is very important for these groups of the
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past. Not because, obviously, we need calories for where we give calories.
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Not hydrates are also basic for life, just as proteins are. So,
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these pre- Hispanic groups are very interesting and very nice, because,
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obviously, within that selection, because they found the plants that had a few
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rhizomes, some tubers that I could consr And here he comes back and doing
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a parenthesis, the theme of learning useful plants. We know of the bitter
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cassava, well known still the Amazon, that you have to obviously detoxify it,
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because if not as an indica submerge, it can even be deadly the
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brava yuca. Not all of that our pre- Hispanic ancestors, because obviously
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all of this that we see today many communities is a legacy of pre-
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Hispanic group groups. So, not starches again, because they allow us to
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identify plants in that microscopic universe. That' s what' s interesting when
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we' re digging archaeologists and coming back and saying about ceramic vessels or stone
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instruments, what we dig, what we pull out, what we show to
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the partner or companion during the excavation. But you don' t show him
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a phytolith, neither a starch nor a poler grain. These are things we
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found in the lab and salmions to summarize that part have the advantage that obviously
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you to consume, for example, to consume these rhizomes and one of the
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most basic ways to make cakes. So, flour water is ready and flour
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water I water, I can toast it. I can make a wedding,
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for example, the married one allows you things, flour cakes processed, as
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it can be at home is very interesting, because it allows you to preserve
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it, you allow it to preserve it and before there were no refrigerators.
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Then people too and worked hard with preservation. So those processed flours, besides
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obviously being a food, is also a very interesting way, because in all
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this we were talking and I' m not going to get in there so
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much the subject of the kitchen, which is very, very interesting, the
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whole subject we said about food processing. Then we see some particles that in
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Colombian archaeology, arcology, because obviously American and in our Colombian case, has
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come to revolutionize much our study of plants, that is, from the idea,
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is from microscopic remains. We are visualizing plants that at the time,
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for example, from Rage to Dorma Where he is such a famous anthropologist,
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because he did not know himself, there was no talk. Then people depended.
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It was therefore up to me to find a large carbonized seed or in
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other regions, because it was very arid because it was dry or dehydrated,
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but in our case, practically because it was charred, then it came to
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revolutionize. But that we have already been thirty, more than thirty years,
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between thirty and forty, we have been applying these techniques and I would say
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if an important revolution to trace plants and especially rhizomatous plants and the amount of
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rhizomatous plants that there in the Colombian registry is surprising. Without these techniques,
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for example, the cartoons or the fear or the poleng we would not find
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them too, then we would be lost, of course, we would be
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missing a lot of information. And I' m convinced that there are things
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we keep losing. But we' re visualizing, because a lot of plants
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and then, well, there' s the whole thing already to close the
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idea. Also the issue of coal, for example, not because without fires
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we have to look for anthropic carbon of anthropogenic origin. That' s another
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technique also to study all this. Let us leave this issue of the use
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of plants, because fire, as I said before, is a strategy.
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Then you have to look. What happens is that coal in this case,
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because it should ideally be looked for, for example, in small lagoons,
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the bodies of water, because there has been a fire. Let' s
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say forest. I' m not burning the house. I' m burning
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where I' m going to put some crops. So those little coals,
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because obviously they are also getting into the land and archaeologists studying the amounts of
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carbon is. There are very nice works in different lakes without lagoons, for
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example, in Panama, famous the mare ball. Then in the bodies of
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water we look for human fires. It is not very nice and as even
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evidence, indirect evidence to identify the crop, for example, that is very,
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very, very interesting. Then look at the studies of the fires to
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have the coals, pollen phytoliths, starches and, of course, let'
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s say the seeds, the cereals, that we took to the places where
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people lived, that we found them, that is, already in the kitchen,
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that food. I' m in the kitchen. So, well,
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it' s all those strategies. And also, to finish the idea,
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there are also other interesting points, which is not archeobotany as such, but
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people also the famous terrorizations prepare we are going to get into that. But
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there' s another field, which, I mean, okay, because when
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we go to the female, there' s one thing like we tame plants.
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And there soberly on the domestic label plants. The human being had to
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tame soils for the success of all this we are talking about the fundamental soil.
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Then another thing that we studied, the Anglos or the soils, because
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obviously we alone would say, let' s say, between domesticated quotation marks
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so that we would say to secure the crops, improve the crops, because
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we also have to take care of them. Then you go from soil chemistry.
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We can find, we can find data that we can relate to the
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cultivation of plants. Just, as I mentioned earlier, there are times in
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mountain areas that you are directly terrorizing, you are cutting the mountain to prepare
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cultivation platforms the camillions also at other times then, that is, those other
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marks in the landscape that are no longer so directly from plants, but that
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are more of a geological character or aphological issues also add up. Let'
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s say as methodologies to study. Let' s say the whole theme of
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plant management use in crop dovetailing relationships, as all these meanings we apply.
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Of course, exactly that manipulation of crop plants leads to what you say well,
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which is the transformation of the landscape and, of course, depending on
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the place of geomorphology, because that transformation goes one way or another and is
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also part of the archaeological record and you mentioned returning those invisible parts of pollen
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phytoliths starches that are to be deposited in pots, are to be deposited in
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the soil, are to be deposited in the stone tools that are used to
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make these flours that serve us or that serve to store them for the future,
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to store for the future those flours that allow then to make us buns
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or some and pass tortillas to consume. There is also that evidence in dental
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calculus, which is a matter not so new, but relatively new, and
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that is the ability to discover in dental calculus and no longer what the group
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ate, but what basically the individual being studied ate. And I think that
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this is also a very interesting approach to diet and that goes in line with
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counterpoints and wants with the studies of isotopia that give us a very general idea
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of plants of this or that, while when the microbotanical study is done,
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it is not such or that plant, but it is specifically the identification of
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each of these plants, and that has an important value for archaeological interpretation.
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Now I' m gonna go back to the corn thing, because you mentioned
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it. Maize, of course, is the number one plant on the American
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continent. Your Excellency. I think it' s everywhere. We know as
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far as I understand that the earliest evidence is almost nine, nine thousand five
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hundred years old in the river Balsas. The work Dolores piperno did was Jeremy
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Sablog on that team as well. I remember and Ranner went up there and
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they finally found that domesticated corn that probably had to take longer, that is,
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if they find it nine, a thousand nine, a thousand five hundred
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years ago, it means that it took a little longer that domestication process.
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What importance, why, why corn becomes so important And is made basically as
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omnipresent in the American archaeological record. Well Juan, I' m not very
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expert on the great American civilizations, but I think corn if we do a
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global look for patterns. And there is a first fact, and it is
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that all this we said on a global level the topic of relationships of domestication,
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in order not to forget the concept this cultivation of plants, which is
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something that happens in the holocene, is very interesting. Then there' s
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a global fact. Well, we' ll have to find explanations. There
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are many explanations, theories, no, but that' s a very interesting
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thing. The holocean is gross ten zero years old. Nothing better. We
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have to think that we have to think about it, that the gross way.
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I' m not at the BTIS, I' m not the last
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ones on dates, but it' s 200, 000 years old, the
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hausati more or less. No, then we have to think. Let us
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say that in the last few minutes it is when we are going to think
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about it, that it has become a farmer, that it has become a
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farmer. Well, then, to summarize the word, we are not farmers
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in the last five minutes of our existence, as we are sapiens sapis.
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No. So it' s a very interesting I' ve done. But
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the other fact we' re going to tell you that I know urban societies
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on a planetary level, they all depend on some cereal. Rice is seen
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in Asia, sip, in Africa barley wheat, rye freded, trio,
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barley is made in the Mediterranean. In America it' s corn. Then
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one that the teacher can say is a plant. As you well said,
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adaptive plasticity is very successful plant. I think it' s the most said
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plant, as we mentioned before. It' s the plant. Let us
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say that he has responded that from the point of view of domestication, action
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responded better for the human being, because they created the human being with these
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research relationships created a productive cereal monster. Okay then and you see it from
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this is that in almost from Canada to the Southern Cone, going through all
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the different kinds of climates, altitude floors. So, I think that'
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s a very important point. And then the productive capacity is also not to
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say, a plant that also a synthesis theo. We see a theosinte is
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a grassy, grassy herbaceous is like rice, like wheat, like blinding.
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But when we see a wild corn, we see a bad one. She
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' s a little squirt with two rows of corn, tiny, ridiculous.
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If you see him in the field, you practically don' t identify that
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that could be the dad or mom of the current corn. No, then
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of course. There is part of the answers, corn harvests are to productivity,
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in terms of the productivity of maize with research, because how many is
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exponential. But that' s pontential, so I think your high productivity has
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something to do with us saying this thing we were talking about earlier, that
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it' s another fact. This is probably, that I have not one
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explanation, but I do not see great civilization on that tip of Palma fruits,
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for example, despite such importance that many other plants can have. I
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do believe that. Then we would always say that corn played that role in
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a certain way, among other things, in terms of agriculture. He was
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able to sustain societies and culture already demographically of a very considerable size. No,
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then I think there' s a relationship and if there' s something
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biological, to put it some way, the malleability that this plant could have.
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How he let a mold the transformation he had, which ended up returning
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to very normal concepts, of very indigenous concepts. We were very deficient because
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of what was created with corn. It was a plant, a domesticated plant,
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a supremely efficient domesticated crop at the time of its production. So,
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well, there we can establish a relationship between societies as I don' t
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know, in Peruvian societies, Aztecs, in the Mayans themselves, the moches
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or the syncas themselves. Obviously, corn was a very, very, very
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important plant. And now, because the corn was mexiated in part, we
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also said to be part of a sub symbol food, the symbolic farm of
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the plants. We see that. Yes, and in Mesoamerican religions it is
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also represented with a god that is not a really very important plant. You
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' ve been working for several years on land in the Masonic area. There
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are the plants that have the greatest presence. I do not know if corn
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also has such a strong influence, although I know it can be given in
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these lands, but what is the plant or set of plants that is most
32:22
striking in lowlands in early times. Of course, there really is one important
32:31
thing. If we take, if we go back to the point of corn,
32:37
if we fly to the point of corn, because obviously, because we
32:43
have talked before, let' s leave the relationship. Let' s say
32:44
urban societies, corn is good. But of course, that American history is
32:50
also in the last moments not worth that pre- Hispanic past for using these
32:54
categories. But they fixed that the mai as you said well, you will
32:59
summarize what already the molecular data, the geneticists and they are talking about Mexico,
33:07
the river Balsas, and it was a date of nine thousand years when
33:09
the domestication would begin remains. We are talking about moments very early, because
33:15
if I mention that I know the Incas or Aztecs and all that or the
33:19
muiscas, we are already talking about what will be in the middle age here.
33:24
But then one of the first question what happens in three, nine,
33:28
zero the average American age is worth system is saying li because then it takes
33:34
so long. Okay. That' s why I think it' s good.
33:37
Obviously, there would be other factors, but then you have to keep
33:40
in mind that then the corn is domesticated very early and there are data of
33:51
a dispersion, of a very early dispersion, from Mexico, for example,
33:55
to what is South America, and that is also very interesting. And in
33:59
the circulation of the plant crew. Then we have data, to summarize,
34:05
some very interesting data in Panama, in Panama and Dartros around the seven zero,
34:10
roughly Ecuador and col and Colombia and Peru also of data around what is
34:17
the seven zero of that would be coming. You' d be arriving at
34:22
this plant, we' re going to make the corn, which is as
34:27
relevant. Then we' ll be talking about a piece of you Andean.
34:30
It is also true that this is where we focus the simistias, the Amazonian
34:32
part. Let' s get the presence of the later maile And what we
34:37
see and see a little bit of the literature that we are other digram plants
34:45
appear before corn. There are other plants that are already being talked about these
34:47
relationships, these relationships of domestication, these long- lasting processes. But it
34:54
is also true that the Andean side said before the seven zero. We already
34:59
have indications of these processes, of these domestication processes, of maize in the
35:06
Amazon' s lowlands. I' m going to respond in Colombia are corn
35:15
pollen about four five hundred zero. What there is is the vestige, which
35:21
is not bad at all. They' re corn putters. We, in
35:27
a recent study we' re doing, have found corn hails. Those interesting
35:30
late ones, as in the 13th century, are worth very interesting micro-
35:37
reserves, but well, you' re realizing what we were talking about earlier,
35:40
even if it' s too late, but what you' re realizing.
35:42
We digest, for that also leads to the Amazon, where it is
35:45
true that Amazonilia we relate it more, for example, to cassava, for
35:47
example, or other crops. But also, there is also evidence. I
35:54
wouldn' t know how to answer. We' d do the weight he
35:58
could have on those things. Societies let' s say complex. That'
36:01
s gonna be headquarters. They' re the caficists in the world, in
36:06
the Amazon world. But there is also relatively early evidence. It' s
36:10
coming, but before corn there' s a story. Let' s say
36:14
a story before corn, but also with the Andean region. Also in the
36:19
Andean region, or in the north of South America, where we are before
36:22
the seven zero, we have vestiges, evidence of crops from previous plants in
36:34
Colombia there are very early data, as we have in Ecuador, as we
36:37
have in Peru, which are the areas that I have read most, no
36:43
yes, in the Amazon and those lands surely go in the yuca plays a
36:49
very important role. Well, it' s still important to feed lowlands and
36:54
the Caribbean, not just continental, but island, and, of course,
37:00
all that process and manipulation of the brava yuca it requires. In addition,
37:07
that process, as you mentioned it, of detoxification, of boiled scratch,
37:15
filtered drying to ensure that it is an edible plant, but with the advantage
37:22
of having a long storage time in conditions of the past, in no type
37:31
of cooling is a great advantage for these societies of the past. What other
37:37
plants or you might mention that they are very important in the posities of the
37:45
past and that they finally have an influence on our diet, our current diet,
37:53
as there are many plants of I mean that make sense to you.
37:54
Orbit America the number of plants. But yes, we do, for example,
38:02
go to the cassava. It' s worth the vestiges. The cassava
38:07
has referred to him two or three plants, for if we can extend,
38:09
but the cassava we are interested in cassava. Today, more or less.
38:14
The domestication center is in the south of Brazil it is south south or east
38:19
approaching what would be the Bolivian Amazon, it is worth more or less where
38:27
the geneticists have located, where the greatest diversity. Well we have on the
38:31
mojo plains. In Bolivia we have data because we have data of micro botany
38:37
dates of ten zero years that are very or very early. They' re
38:43
talking cassava. Okay then that' s where I want to say it maybe,
38:47
not in the current species, but they' re probably already related to
38:53
the domestication process. Then we have very early data there and we can track
38:58
him, because he' s already wetting us. I' d be very
39:01
close or I' d almost be a part of it. We' re
39:04
making that big area. We said what it would be to give the origin
39:09
of the cassava, then he sent it that then we have very interesting data
39:15
in archaeological contexts. Here we are going to talk about archaeological data. Well
39:17
then, in a way, archaeology serves a little to calibrate the narratives of
39:22
genetics. What I said earlier. Then we also have very early data in
39:28
the Zaña Valley, Peru, with chronologies of nine thousand eight hundred years of
39:35
cassava. It' s interesting, because we' re not getting any closer,
39:37
we' re getting closer to the Andean world. Sure, look at
39:38
that. I' ve had to climb up and go to the other side.
39:43
The valley of Zaña is on the western slope. It is a foot
39:45
of mountain looking for the coast, precisely the coast, but they are looking
39:51
at that slope already aerophytic. Not then do we have very interesting data from
39:55
what would be its original center. Let' s call this what Bolivia would
40:00
be like. The Bolivian Amazon had to climb and had to pass to say
40:06
to the Andes. Then, of course, the Andes also surely became a
40:10
great route of dispersion, both of humans and in this case, of plants.
40:15
But we' re talking about very early moments. In Colombia we have
40:20
very early data also through micro botany, about six thousand five hundred of what
40:24
would be cassava. Then it would be very interesting that with this you mean,
40:30
all this gives the domestication. Archaeologically, archaeologically, we would be talking
40:37
about all these processes I' m not saying that it was already somewhat mesticated,
40:40
but rather the process of domestication of the mantío that we have in very
40:45
early vestiges that could be beginning. But it' s a way from ten
40:47
thousand or nine, one thousand five hundred years he wants. If we want
40:50
to be more conservative, then we have a very important plant, with a
40:55
record, with a record we would say quite early with the last dates.
41:00
Then we have the corn we' ve already talked about it. But then
41:07
we have other plants, like beans. What I do is supremely interesting.
41:16
They are plants that have been studied a lot. So it' s interesting
41:22
because the common fixed is a lot of different types. The common bean,
41:29
which is the phase of the vulgaris, there are several centers of two,
41:31
there are several places of domestication. That' s also interesting as a plant.
41:36
I can have several places where, obviously, these undensified processes. One
41:43
of the regions is in Mesoamerica, especially this part of what is called Mexico,
41:46
Guatemala, mainly the most s side towards the Pacific, where we gave
41:52
have located by biomolecular indicators. They' re in a protein. The fesolinna.
42:00
They' re in a protein. They claim that this is a genetic
42:05
pool. There it is true that the archaeological data in Mesoamerica, the archaeological
42:10
data, they always work with macrorestos. So they' re more recent.
42:15
They have dates between four thousand and two thousand. They' re very recent.
42:20
Then and then we have other genetic collections for the fixed, the compound
42:23
we eat. There is one that is the southern South, southern Peru,
42:28
for example, and there we have data, much earlier data. We have
42:35
data of seven zero. Again there is the western slope. Looking towards the
42:40
coast, there we have data of eight zero. Also in a region called
42:46
the Zaya Valley, we also have data very early, earlier than Mesoamerica.
42:52
But then there' s another one. There is another very interesting genetic collection,
42:58
which is the north of Ecuador and Colombia, because we have always looked
43:01
very Andean, such that, because they have found a protein, the phaseline
43:06
b that have located it in the region, in the Colombian Andean region.
43:13
Then there are two, like two very safe places that would be like what
43:17
would be the south of Peru, cluso looking for the border with Bolivia,
43:23
would be Mesoamerica, because Mexico, to give it a name and such.
43:27
But there is another third potential region that could be digrammos, the north of
43:31
Ecuador and what would be the territory, the Colombian territory. Not then.
43:38
Then we also have very early data, the data where we would say what
43:44
would be in Peru, as the Zagaña valley commented. We have data between
43:50
seven thousand two or a thousand years. It is worth very much for microbotany,
43:55
because very much what they would be, obviously, as well as quite
44:00
early enough. Then we have another fixed in Lima that is called is very
44:08
located. We would give that is very much in northern Peru and southern Ecuador.
44:14
There' s another little center, like the experts have located and we
44:17
have data from five zero years ago. Well, for example, they'
44:21
re also very early, which would be to say in a region called the
44:25
Girl Valley. Well, they' re the least they have data like five
44:29
zero. Then we have some kind of plants. We' ll give as
44:31
they are, let' s say the world of beans, which is fundamental.
44:35
So we have data from eight thousand ago for South America, safe from
44:40
eight thousand five zero. If we want to give you a wide range to
44:45
put into practice in your America, we have more recent dates. But it
44:52
also has to do, as I said earlier, if I' m working
45:00
with micro- reserves before, because we' re also talking about macro-
45:06
remnants, then we have other plants. Pumpkins, pumpkins, are very important.
45:08
But in the pumpkins. One of the pumpkins, for example, the
45:15
one I remember, the cucurbita pepo, the oldest record is in Oaxaca,
45:21
ten zero years. We' re talking about fenchas, too, very early.
45:24
It is worth all these origins of plant cultivation, domestication. So we
45:29
' re talking about very early dates, as it does what they call the
45:34
zucchini of land, in zucchini, in can, the cucurbita pepo, then.
45:39
But we also have ficifolia in Mexico and algirosperma also then in Mexico.
45:49
Mexico, yes we have is a place to say a center of we gave,
45:55
of domestication, of the pumpkins, very important, but then there are
45:59
others after pumpkins, like chata, that our huyama of Colombia has located itself.
46:04
We don' t have data, but the genes there, yes,
46:07
from molecular indicators, botanists place it as a potential region Colombia, but we
46:13
don' t have data. Make a very early search of the moshata and
46:17
then we have the most sigma cucubita you are. They have found in the
46:21
mojo plains also with a date between ten zero nine zero mojo plains. They
46:24
have found as of the most interesting data in those works that they did is
46:30
the Bolivian Amazon. They found of the most important data or a cububite that
46:37
would be the maximum, they have also found it with dates of ten,
46:40
two hundred, ten, three hundred together with what would be a type of
46:45
cultivation of what would be cassava. But we have also found data from these
46:52
on the coast of Peru, we have found again the Zaaña valley, which
46:57
in Peru has also been found with chronologies between ten thousand nine thousand years of
47:01
this a cucurbit that is probably the maximum, that the maximum cucurbit does have
47:06
a center of origin grams in this region among what would be Bolivia. This
47:12
part of the Amazon language more than the southwest. And we also have on
47:16
the coast of Peru val ten years and other famous sites Huacaprieta, where there
47:21
are data of ten thousand five hundred years also of cucurbit. They give you
47:24
cucurbita okay. That we have to take into account here, when we are
47:30
giving all these dates as early as ten, one thousand nine, one thousand
47:35
eight thousand years, we have to say that back to the beginning of this
47:40
conversation, we had to talk about these human groups that would be starting,
47:47
we said to create this very close co- evolutionary relationship with these plants,
47:52
okay, that is, the domestication process. That is, it is and
47:55
definitely, a number of plants that later had, of course, a subsequent
48:00
impact in the early century, 16th century in Europe, such as tomato,
48:07
of course, potato, corn, yucca, all these domesticated plants in America
48:15
that later had that first impact in Europe and then spread throughout the rest of
48:24
the planet. Yeah. Finally, Javier, one last question, and it
48:30
is already moderately accustomed to seeing these results of microbotanical studies more or less with
48:42
the same plants are beginning to look like that in some cases it could turn
48:47
out as repetitive and corn does always appear out there. What topics do you
48:58
think are to be addressed in the future for paleobotany, for this discipline in
49:05
the field of archaeology. What are the new challenges you have for the future
49:14
and where you are projecting with these environmental and diet studies? The first one,
49:25
if you tell me, is where all this is going. I would
49:30
say today what you have learned strongly is the ancient adene of plants. We
49:37
have a very nice example and it is cocoa. We have a very early
49:42
date. Cocoa too That' s got a lot of Mexicans. Always the
49:45
flag of traditional domestication of plants in America seems to be forty years ago everything
49:51
came from Mexico, from Peru. This now, fortunately, we can already
49:54
talk about the Colombian Andean region, northern Ecuador Vale. We can even speak
50:01
of the Moshata Cuburbit, which is also raised by Panama. We are also
50:07
talking about Amazon regions. Then it' s a first conclusion. Today we
50:12
know much more and at least we are looking for new geography of plant domestication.
50:19
That' s also important to leave that look. Let' s say
50:25
traditional So I' d say it' s been a breakthrough two genetics.
50:30
I believe that ancient DNA that you can calibrate a lot can provide a lot
50:36
of information, because obviously there is a current molecular genetics that allows you to
50:43
establish genealogies relationships of plants. We said that the archaeological remains of micro or
50:49
macro plants calibrate, calibrate genetics, but I think it was genetics. The
50:53
old one is going to be very important, obviously, because obviously it has
51:00
its difficulties because you have to find fragments of chromosomes. But the calcao study
51:05
extracted the DNA from the fragment of a beautiful theobroma cell vessel five thousand four
51:14
hundred years Ecuadorian Amazonia. With analysis then find a ceramic container and the ceramic
51:22
repository, because a dirty appeared, an amorphous mass can there recover starches that
51:27
recovered DNA that I believe, because it seems to be a specinetist, obviously,
51:35
but it seems to be a trace will tilar, since very powerful and
51:38
very powerful. Then I' d say that. Then there' s something
51:42
else in your question, which I' ve left out, but I'
51:46
m going to use it to mention another one of the issues that we can
51:52
see is like the famous bottleneck, because it' s the famous bottleneck that
51:57
we already see. Even in pre- Hispanic studies there are plants that,
52:00
as an eye tendency that begin to lose a lot of weight when, for
52:07
example, the corn begins to become massified, already massified in terms, it
52:13
begins to globalize between certain plants. We see in the pre- Hispanic world
52:17
that we begin to say to replace others. I mean, there we have
52:22
hypodercomien. It' s very likely at that stage. It is very likely
52:25
here that we will have to have more data and I was going to say
52:30
so between hunter gatherers and that stage that I am making transitory of growers,
52:36
small cultivators up to what is already associated very agricultural, which one is very
52:43
likely to go We would say reducing the spectrum of plants. Some are losing
52:45
strength and others are becoming marginal and others are becoming very powerful. They are
52:52
very massive, because it is true the cucurbits in the phaseons that are the
52:59
beans or cassava, the corn, the potato, solanum, tuberosum is also
53:05
going to be a very important plant. It is very likely that the weight
53:10
of the feeding already increased in the last pre- Hispanic moments associated with those.
53:15
Let' s say populations since they lived in cities, protocities or very
53:22
large villages, began to their food sovereignty that was supported by a smaller spectrum
53:29
of plants, which very probably groups of those pioneer groups in the cultivation of
53:36
plants, in the selective management of plants, in those in which they began
53:39
the relationships of domves. Colombia has some records and does not speak much about
53:44
Colombia specifically, but we have some very interesting rhizomes. What achiras are like.
53:50
We have them in the register, the lerem la malanga, so they
53:54
are plants that even when they see the chronicles, are very interesting. That
53:58
' s what it' s for. The chronicles speak of cotton. Of
53:59
course, this talks about pumpkins. The chronicles don' t give it.
54:02
It is true that the chronicles must be calibrated. Not unfortunately, for example,
54:08
the Colombian analogy, the study of plants in the classical societies of Colombia,
54:14
classical lasticities are the societies so that they understand it to the public a
54:16
little. The sada of Ofebre, lo ji gua, the wisca the taironas
54:22
is taken for granted, but there are many things that we should not take
54:25
for granted, but prove it. But try it. We have an archaeology
54:30
of late societies little known and we continue to rely on the chronicles. But
54:36
I say this because because when we go to the initial moments we have a
54:40
record going to say that it ate a lot of root in many very interesting
54:45
rhizomes. What about that thing that later or not mentioned, not then we
54:51
have a jump there. We said we were talking about two different universes and
54:55
it was very interesting, for example, to fill gaps like the stoplan posing.
55:00
We already take many truths for granted, but perhaps they should be relativized
55:04
by applying the arch or so bitten. For example, the question one of
55:10
what the muiscas we are talking about already that so there were viceroys, there
55:15
were no provinces there were well, obviously, that are chronicles, but for
55:21
her, obviously, we are talking about societies demographically, talking very big.
55:28
Well, what was the feed? Very probably the mai I will not doubt
55:30
it, but probably there were other things and what you commented earlier, isotopia
55:35
also the isotope studies will also complement all these topics, because through isotopia,
55:40
a leguminous with nitrogen, can identify it, for example, the cmis are
55:45
ideal or the corn or the with carbon thirteen also another technique yes, and
55:51
also, with the other part of the feeding, and it is the protective
55:57
part that comes from the house of animals and some domesticated animals that they yaze
56:01
is. That will be another subject. Obviously, another specialty, which is
56:12
archeosology. Well, Javier, thank you so much for your time, for
56:16
your generosity. It' s always a pleasure to talk to you and I
56:22
think it' s the few times we' ve talked about having no beers
56:28
on the table by the distance, we' ll get it back next time,
56:37
so nothing will continue to produce scientific content on this podcast. The future
56:37
was yesterday. Well, thank you very much to Juan Guillermo. It has
56:42
been a pleasure and good to end this dialogue with a debt. You end
56:47
up on one side with your kids. That' s good That' s
56:50
good. Thank you very much for everything and well, it has been a