Latest / The Inner Well Podcast / A Life of Conscious Contact: AA Co-Founder Bill W’s Journey Through Consciousness
Transcript
- The Inner Well Podcast: We all contain a space within that when enlivened and nourished will support us with unwavering stability, expansion, and peace of mind. Join us each week as we dive into honest, grounded conversations about transcendental meditation, consciousness, and growth, and what it means to live an integrated life supported by a foundation of creativity and calm. This is the inner world. Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Inner Well. I'm so excited to have Jay Stinnett here with me this week. ⁓ for those of you that don't know, Jay is a world-renowned scholar who has dedicated a lot of his life to really Understanding the baseline of spiritual practices as it relates to the human condition. And the original founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill Wilson, he recently did the documentary Conscious Contact, introducing the world to Bill's story and not only what we have to be grateful to Bill for, but also what an inspiration he was for overcoming. some of the challenges with the human condition. And as we're diving into our theme this month of addiction, I figured this would be a perfect opportunity to have Jay on here and really allow him to inspire us and educate us on some of the undercurrents that go with this experience of the human condition and how these different spiritual practices can support it. And so Jay, thank you so much for being here with us today. It's a great pleasure. And you know, any time that I ⁓ I always feel that, you know, I when I get invited to these things, I'm more the commentator on the amusement park than anything else. That's a beautiful thing because you have A tremendous amount to comment on. You know, you've had a lot of experience, you've had the opportunity to have it sounds like some really amazing mentors. And so you have a wealth of knowledge to be able to share, which we're all very grateful for. There's a a wonderful letter that we refer to in the film from Carl Jung to Bill Wilson, and he's talking about alcoholism. And he sa he's talking about ⁓ ⁓ a man who came to him that had all the money in the world, ⁓ this guy Roland ⁓ hazard and he describes Roland's thirst for alcohol as being at a low level the same as our soul's thirst for wholeness yes in medieval language union with God. And I don't know where I developed this thirst. But I I have been ⁓ invigorated by spiritual practice and spiritual search for ⁓ most of my life. And I'm ⁓ you know, I'm seventy-two years old. I'm I live at the base of ⁓ Cathedral Rock here in Sedona, Arizona, the most powerful feminine vortex. And ⁓ I'm in the fourth grade year love affair of my life and I'm in the ⁓ I'm more creatively alive than I've ever been. And I believe that it has to do with this relaxing into what's available with a meditative practice. Absolutely. There's an experience of humanity that I feel like in so many ways is unavailable to us until we can connect with that space inside us. That holds that depth and that capacity to genuinely recognize who we are beyond just this human experience that you may not have been privy to had you not had the opportunity to connect with that space inside of you. And I think meditation does that. The philosopher Gerald Hurd, ⁓ who was a mentor of Wilson's and a colleague of ⁓ Aldous Huxley's. ⁓ he talked about that the meditative faculty is something that is installed in everyone. And that we are those of us who have found meditation and are growing along in it, what we're doing is we're drawing the race along. We're drawing the human race along, you know, and and every every step, every time that you pull yourself a little bit further, it not only does something for us individually, but it does something for the collective. ⁓ absolutely. And so we're so so this isn't about us. This is about the expansion of the race using a a a ⁓ faculty that has been installed in everyone, but only we only are being taught about it at this time in our life. Right. Unfortunately we are. Yeah. There's I think the evolutionary momentum on a collective level to support the capacity for so many people to be searching for that inner space. It's just a matter of following the charm as as some of our friends like to call it. And so as we're moving into this theme for addiction this month, one of the things that I've always found to be really Paradoxical about this struggle that so many people have a challenge with is this whole idea of getting to a space where your nervous system is dysregulated, you're feeling disconnected, you're feeling overwhelmed, you're feeling anxiety, and ultimately you're feeling disempowered. And so so many people have this natural gravitational pull towards reaching out. For something, be it a substance, be it another person, whatever the addiction, however it shows up, in the assumption and in the hope that it's going to fill whatever lack they're feeling, whatever void they're feeling inside that is actually creating the dysregulation and the discontent. And this in and of itself is actually such a disempowering experience because. We're literally reaching outside of ourselves to try to regulate internally. And so we're sending ourselves the message that in order to feel what I'm longing to feel, I have to seek for it outside of myself. And so I think that this can be a really Challenging paradigm for so many people because we are in an externally regulated society. You know, we kind of have this paradigm that tells us that fullness exists outside of us, in our jobs, in our social circles, in our relationships, in money, in, you know, alcohol and whatever the thing may be. And I just I wonder what your experience of this is. Well, thank you. ⁓ so there's a wonderful word. It's called exogenous. I love words. And exogenous is that it's something outside of myself. Okay. So on a on a societal level, we're taught that there is happiness can only be produced by something outside of ourselves. And that if for some reason we are not satisfied then a new car, a new partner losing, you know, 25 pounds, having another three ⁓ zeros in the bank account, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, ⁓ will change the way that we feel about ourselves. And that's not, I don't believe that's the way that we were created. Now, I come from a family that's ⁓ That's absolutely riddled with alcoholism. I like to say it doesn't run in my family, it gallops. And ⁓ so growing up in that kind of environment, one tends to be restless, irritable, and discontented. And then many times what happens is that ⁓ someone will ingest a substance. One of the things that's really fascinating about alcohol is Is that there only seems to be about 10 to 15 percent of the population that has this abnormal response to a beverage. In other words, you can put a dozen people in a room, give them all heroin, they'll all be heroin addicts. You can put a dozen people in the room, only two are going to become alcoholics. Interesting. It's a yeah. So so this is why there's that whole thing about, well, You know, why can't they drink like a like a a a gentleman or a normal normal person or this or that another thing? They're just wired differently. Now, this is ⁓ this is my my my ⁓ my point of view is is that when that alcohol was first introduced, there is the unit of experience. It actually is a true the body, the mind, the spirit are all in the same place at the same time. And if you've been in Raised in an environment where that's not available, where you're always nervous, you're afraid of what's going to happen next. You're lots of ⁓ violence and the like around you. ⁓ once one has that experience, one will do whatever is necessary to maintain that. And this is something that also happens, I believe, with folks that ⁓ get addicted to different substances, is they have that. unit of experience. And once you've had it, if you've never had it before, bang, it's off to the races. What happens is is that at some point that exogenous substance no longer works or that that that type of relationship doesn't work. So you start trying to date redheads just to make sure that you don't get in that same situation again or, you know. and and so you switch what it is. you're still looking outside yourself as you were talking about. You know, you're you're looking outside of yourself for this feeling of union. Now, many people have this this problem called alcoholism, and it reaches a point where they've got to do something. Now, the interesting thing about alcoholism is that up until ninety-five years ago, it's a death sentence. I I I mean it's really easy to go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there was nothing From a religious, social, educational standpoint that could help people like that. They just ended up getting put in jail. Now, there's there something happens, and this is the thing that fascinated me, and I've dedicated my life to studying the evolution and and and the application of these spiritual principles. Some spiritual principles got introduced. I like to say, They were developed by the dying for the dying. Now you you you take that a little bit further and you take a look at the twelve suggested steps that that Alcoholics Anonymous developed that came f out of a consciousness that had been absolutely devastated. Wilson was a three-dimensional character to the g you know. ⁓ and then all of a sudden he has an experience, and the experience is not because he had faith. Yeah. The experience was because he was desperate and he just calls out, you know, if there'd be a God, let him show himself to me. And then pow it hits. He doesn't ask Jesus. He's not praying to Buddha. He's not looking for any brand. He just is desperate and says, if there is one, let it Let it show itself and boom, he has this white light experience. He has this unit of experience where he realizes that all is connected. And over time, what happens is he develops this methodology, which is now called is known as the twelve steps, that actually leads people out of this incredible morass. Of addiction. One of the things that I found so fascinating about that story around his white light experience is when he was talking in the documentary about his relationship with alcohol. And he was talking about how his before he had his first drink, he was having this experience of feeling a level of shame. Like he didn't belong where he was. Like he couldn't show up and be an equal in the space that he was holding. And then someone gave him his first drink and all of a sudden he said he felt like he had become a part of life. And then he talked about how his experience with alcohol very largely was so Addictive and consuming because he related it to the experience of when I drink, I'm able to dream. I'm able to dream big. I'm able to, you know, drew dream dreams of power. And then eventually when the alcohol turned on him, he started drinking to forget. And then he had this experience of getting on the other side of the journey with alcohol, where he went into this. Deep, deep depression. And he said that he had felt levels of hopelessness that he never felt before. And then when he had that white light experience, he again said that in that moment, after experiencing that connection with something greater than him, that experiential knowledge of a spiritual reality, he felt like he was again part of life. And so I just find it so fascinating that his original introduction into alcohol made is what made him feel a part of life. And then it ultimately almost took his life from him. And then this spiritual connection that he facilitated in this white light experience again f brought him full circle. I like to ⁓ compare it to drinking away one's soul. Alcohol will remove or drugs will remove or Eating will remove everything that makes a human being a human being. And then you're left as an animal. And in that, in that discontent, in that in that in that feeling of powerlessness, ⁓ which is the most intolerable state that a human can be in. No control, no direction. You start you you start grasping at anything, but but first there's that thing of coming up against the the powerlessness, and that's the bedrock of the experience that was you know d ⁓ transmitted in the in the twelve steps. The first step is about powerlessness. It doesn't matter what the substance of the situation about that experience that he had also was and again to your point of not defining what that higher power is. Even when he called out in his point of despair and he said, If there is a God, will you show yourself to me? It was still coming from such a humble place. You know, so many people will in that space of despair, many people tend to demand. And he's just simply asking and requesting. He's not even saying show yourself. He said, Will you show yourself? And it's just this experience of humility that he came to it with, which I think is such a beautiful thing. And then he talked a little bit about also how ⁓ you know, the twelfth step being an spiritual experience is what he originally stated it as. And then there was a second edition that came out where he actually said spiritual awakening. And so awakening versus experience, because not everyone's going to have the white light experience. And this is where I think, you know, the practice of transcendental meditation, which is something he practiced towards the end of his life, really lends itself to bridging that gap because You know, one of the things that Mahorshi, Maheshyogi, the founder of TM, you know, he as a spiritual guide, spiritual guru really set out to do it very differently than those his predecessors had done in the past. You know, so many spiritual traditions will have this methodology of You do A, B, C, D, and then you get this experience of samadhi or enlightenment or union, whatever you want to call it. And Mahorshi kind of had this idea of flipping that on its side and say, no, no, we give them the experience of samadhi first, and then everything else naturally falls into place. And so having that experiential knowledge that Actual capacity to experience some connection with self, with universe, whatever you want to call it, for the human condition, that experience can be so profound. And what I think was so beautiful, and what was discussed in the film was how when Bill Wilson learned TM in the last year of his life, he actually said. I didn't know what the 11th step meant until I learned this practice. So I'm a I'm a historian of the spiritual antecedents of Alcoholics Anonymous, and I'm privileged to go all over the planet telling Bill's evolutionary story and to talk about applying spiritual principles to this incredible problem. And along the line, we had heard those of us who are ⁓ students of the of the AA. history that Bill had learned transcendental meditation. But we had only heard it from the TM side. And we couldn't, when we looked around, we couldn't get anybody to say, ⁓ no, this is what happened and blah, blah, blah. And when we looked at Wilson, there's over a hundred thousand documents that we've got of his letters and this and that and and all these people that knew him, there was no anecdotal evidence about him being a TM practitioner. But I loved the story. So I unless you have two independent s sources, you can't call something a fact if you're a historian, right? So all the sources that I got are from the TM side. So I didn't photoshop it, but in my lectures I started in my PowerPoint, I got a picture of the Maharishi and Bill Wilson, and I got the TM nineteen sixty nine question mark. That's all. Just you know, we all believe that he was a seeker. Da da da. So I'm down in Brownwood, Texas. Now, I don't know about you and your listeners, but Brownwood, Texas is is like someplace that you send people. It's just it's not a destination spot. I'm down there giving a talk and and ⁓ and I got this and this guy comes up to me afterwards and says, Need to talk to my friend in this. Gentleman comes up and he says, my dad taught Bill Wilson transcendental meditation. And we I I was I was just gobsmacked. And I said, really? He said, yeah. He said, ⁓ it was near the end of his life. Would you like to meet my father? Now I'm thinking, you know, I'm doing the math, 1969, 2024. What what geriatric ward am I going to have to fly to to meet this cat? But anyway, so I call this guy up, Lincoln Norton, and he tells me this elegant story of ⁓ teaching Bill transcendental meditation. And and so I, you know, I fly up and see him, and then I think what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take take a ⁓ an iPad and I'm just gonna interview him and then I'll put it on a a little website so that people have it. But it was such an incredibly powerful story, which I'll tell in a moment, that what ended up happening is I got a f I'm I'm thinking it's gonna cost, you know, ⁓ fifteen thousand dollars to even do a three-camera shoot and do it do it seven minutes. And anyway, have four hundred thousand dollars later, I have this movie called Bill W, Conscious Contact. And it's about his spiritual evolution. But the main point of this movie is to show that at the end of his life, he's still got an open mind and an open heart, and he turns eastward because of some things that that that were happening around. And I find this incredibly encouraging for any person that's walking the planet to keep your heart and your mind open, but pay attention to what's placed in front of you. So this is what ends up happening. ⁓ a friend of Bill's son This guy, t ⁓ Lincoln Norton, ⁓ runs across the Na Maurishi in 1966 at ⁓ Harvard University. And things get get rolling, and he ends up going to India ⁓ after the Beatles course and becoming a teacher, coming back to the United States. And when we come back to the United States, his father, who had ⁓ learned ⁓ transcendental meditation, ⁓ Asked if he would like to come and introduce Bill and and the members of the group to the practice. Lincoln says yes. So December 10th or 11th, I love calling it December 11th because it was the 35th anniversary of Bill's separation from alcohol. Wow. When he checked in that I mean it's just you can't make this stuff up, right? Yeah. So anyway, Lincoln drives up to this this little AA meeting in in in the town of Bedford, ⁓ Bedford Hills and and ⁓ and he gets with ⁓ the gang and he he goes and he performs the the the ceremony of gratitude and then he takes Bill up to this this other room to ⁓ give him his mantra. And and and so he he gives Bill his mantra and then he leaves, you know, as you do and Goes down and and and waits the 20 minutes and he goes back up into the room and Wilson's not there. Well, he goes, Where is the guy? Comes downstairs. Has anybody seen Bill? And all of a sudden the door bursts open and Wilson says, This stuff really works. Yeah. And and he says, he says, Wilson suffered from horrible emphysema. I mean, to the point that he was hallucinating off and on. Last couple of years of his life. And ⁓ he goes, I went outside and was able to take these breaths of of night air that I never could have done. This is amazing. And Lincoln says, I told him, calm down. This is your first time, you know. And ⁓ and so what ends up happening is is that ⁓ Lincoln ⁓ gets together and they have checking meetings. And during the checking meetings, he actually says to ⁓ Lincoln, he said, ⁓ at one point, he says, You know, I I I never understood the eleventh step and so I I started to transcend and and Lincoln goes, What do you mean? You wrote it. What do you mean you don't understand? And Wilson says that ⁓ I I didn't actually write it. It came to me as an inspiration. This humility of this man who right now today, there's two million people walking around the planet that are just liberated from alcohol. We're not talking about the family groups, cocaine anonymous, heroin, all those other things. That this message that came through him that he never acted as though he was the one that did it. May we all be so right sized. And he said, Nah, he said it came through me as an inspiration. He said, But now I I understand. Now of course those of us who are spiritual enthusiasts that have tried many different practices over the years. Every time that I have a new experience that clicks, I always, ⁓ this is it. I get all my friends, we go to the seminar, we do this, we do that, you know. I mean, Megan, I'm I'm sure this never happened to you or your friends, but you know, that's this has been my life is ⁓ is is not not chasing after relief, but just watching what comes and and responding to it. And so ⁓ So here we have this incredible demonstration of of Wilson ⁓ at the end of his life turning eastward. ⁓ you know, another great thing is Lincoln's only 24 years old. Lincoln's ⁓ Wilson's 74 at this time. You know, that he's placing himself the feet of this young man to learn this incredible practice that that gave him great sustenance. ⁓ now Again, this is December of nineteen sixty-nine. It's at the end of Wilson's life. Tell you a little, this is a special thing just for your listeners. Because we we didn't put this in the film because we it it it happened afterwards. ⁓ that ⁓ in July, so this is the fourth of July weekend of nineteen seventy, Alcoholics Anonymous down on Miami Beach was having its big international convention. Big, big deal. And Wilson is down there, but he's he's totally debilitated by his in a but he can't he can't breathe. One of the members of his team says, you know, this this TM has been helpful ⁓ in calming him down to the point that he can ⁓ that he can get some ⁓ some relief. And ⁓ so they called up to Jerry Jarvis, who was the Maharishi's ⁓ main guy and said, you know, we got this guy down here and he's having real trouble. Is there anything we can do for him? And the Maharishi said, send a qualified instructor. If this person's practice can handle it, they can go from 20 minutes a day to an advanced technique of twice a day for an hour. And either this will, you know, it might help with spontaneous remission, but it might alleviate some of the suffering. So I I'm busy talking about this movie project to a friend that's ⁓ and and he goes, Well, I meditated with Wilson and I went, What? And what happened was is that ⁓ he was down in Tampa, Florida, and is and ⁓ he got the call to be the person to go down and and check Wilson's meditative practice. And so he goes in and and ⁓ starts talking with Wilson and and Wilson's on a big ⁓ an oxygen tank with a big l ⁓ lead, a lot of this guy's mask on and all that. And he gets so excited talking to talking to this guy that he that he takes his mask off and lights up an LM cigarette. And the woman that was that was in the the in the in the house came running and she says, What are you doing? She wasn't mad at him smoking. It was the it was the flame and the oxygen, right? But anyway, my buddy goes in and they they they they They sit down and and Wilson's not able to sit now. He's just he's he's he's laid out in bed, propped up, 40 degrees, and and and ⁓ you know Lincoln said that Wilson was a very good meditator. And my my friend described him as a champion meditator. And ⁓ he said he couldn't believe how quickly and deeply they went. And so they do it. And they they they do the twenty and and and he goes, Okay. So then they d ⁓ they they went ahead and they did an hour and then he came back the next morning. He went stayed at a motel six and came back the next morning, they did an hour. And then he gave Wilson the ⁓ the ability to ⁓ to do the practice an hour twice a day and you know, it it it did relieve some of his some of his suffering by the deep rest that he was able to get as anybody that is a is a as a mantra meditation practitioner knows is is that there is a a rest that comes to the body that's not available ⁓ yeah in any other form. Yeah. Yes. The rest and then the the mind body connection that's facilitated when you get to that space of least activity allows for an expression of healing that is not as available without that very concentrated ⁓ mind body connection. So that's a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing. So the fun thing is, is that that mind body connection that you're talking about was so remarkable that they were able to get him into the room on the closing Sunday. And he only gave like a three minute address, but they got him in and he got to be up in front of everybody. That's you know, and and it's yeah, it really, it really is a wasn't ⁓ was an amazing thing. So You know, the the the evolution of our lives is far grander than any scheme that we have. Yes. Many, many spiritual practices you go and people say, Well, you know, take a do a review, you know, go to confession, hear some prayers, you get a problem, blah, blah, blah. In the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, they say, No, you gotta go and pay back the money. You have to go and look the people in the eyes whose har ⁓ whose life you've harmed, whose trust you've violated. You need to you need to make this all right. Now, all those other spiritual conditions or ⁓ traditions, they will talk about maybe how in between lives, when the body's dropped, that there's some kind of a review that happens. Or or that the soul p figures out what it's gotta do to karmically re-engineer. In the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, people do that incarnate. Can you imagine how many lifetimes the people that actually do the process are able to slingshot through? Yeah. Well, and how much it changes the trajectory of their life moving forward because our relationship with cause and effect is always a malleable experience. And when you have a relationship with cause and effect where you're genuinely making an effort to right the wrongs and be a better version of yourself moving forward, that changes your entire trajectory, your trajectory and your potential and your capacity in this lifetime. Mm-hmm. And the next. And the next and the next. And the next. Yeah. And so one of the things that Bill also alluded to, which I think is really interesting, and you know, he was again Talking about how not everyone has to have this spiritual experience in order to have a spiritual awakening. And he was talking about how it can happen spontaneously, like how it happened to him. And it can also just seep in over time, where he was referring to grace kind of seeping in over time. ⁓ yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this idea of spontaneous enlightenment versus, you know, integrating a more connected, more refined, more ⁓ expanded version of self as you go along with your intention and your spiritual practice and improving your relationship with cause and effect. And so As a scholar yourself and someone who has been studying spiritual practices for a long time, what do you think the difference is in that? There's a there's a wonderful book called The Fingerprints of God, where it says that everybody has a profound experience at some point in their life. May just be a moment, but if you're in a tradition or around people that have had that, then ⁓ then you interpret it as a spiritual experience where if you aren't, you just say, ⁓ it was a bad day, or it was just strange insight, or this or that or nothing where other people say, ⁓ my God, that's the most most important thing that ever happened in my life. So this practice of transcendental meditation twice a day, you have the capacity to get very deep rest. You know, you have the capacity to facilitate that mind-body connection that really enables the nervous system to heal and optimize. And many people also experience something inside them that just feels so calm and expansive and full and satisfying. And the mind actually gets satiated. And there's this experience of being able to. Transcend or go beyond the elements of our humanity that we get so stuck in on a day-to-day basis. How do you feel like having a spiritual practice like this supports this journey of addiction? This question that you asked, Megan, is one of the most fundamental f fundamental conundrums of this journey through surrendering. Reliance on those things material to those things which are known as spiritual. In the twelve step movement, it's very interesting that one goes around as much as I have and and and seen so many people that don't embrace the entire package, that don't rely and learn about how to activate this meditative faculty. Even though in the Alcoholics Anonymous book, which was inspired by Bill, it says, you know, ⁓ you know, that that it's really important that we invite our wives and friends to join us in morning meditation. And this this this this elevation of consciousness that's available, you know, the this thing about using the exogenous substance or person or whomever to make me feel whole or give me that momentary elevation as opposed to something that's true that allows a person by sitting twice a day experiencing that rest, experiencing that mind-body connection, to begin to have this faculty available to them of following a life of bliss. I I One of the things I I I I I love is that, you know, you think of bliss as some kind of orgastic ⁓ state. No, it's it's the absence of thought. And and that with that absence of thought, what happens is is that one is available to inspiration. And as one lives a life of inspiration by returning to the mat twice a day, all kinds of remarkable things happen. And you see people's lives start to evolve in ways that are really quite miraculous, but yet it's just a matter of following the practice that the the Maharishi ⁓ popularized that really is a transferable. And that's the thing that's so important about it. It's transferable person to person. It's it's it really is. And so that The elevation of consciousness that that that then comes from being involved in a regular practice is is what liberates people from the necessity of needing something outside of themselves to change themselves. The thing that's remarkable about the twelve-step movement is is that many people come in and get involved and do this and that and another thing and and go through the methodology. And then they withdraw from the movement. And what happens is is that the primary problem dips below the horizon and suddenly Dayton Redheads isn't such a bad idea anymore. And so you start out and this time it's it's gonna be different. And then bang, you know, you're back in the same or or you pick up the the you start to drink again or you start to use other substance to bring that feeling of wholeness. And suddenly you're caught back in that cycle. And so this thing of making sure that one is not only spiritually elevated to one's consciousness, but that one keeps, you know, the the thing that's interesting is like with Wilson, continuing to seek, never telling people that, ⁓ I'm doing this meditation. You should do it too. Being able to evolve, being able to change, being available to grow and expand, but without the component of serving others that are still suffering, one might take credit for one's own spiritual liberation. And it's the difference between an acknowledgement of grace and a ⁓ personal transformation journey that one can purchase all kinds of places. And so is there anything that you would like to say to our listeners who might be on that path of addiction and struggling with trying to find that inner equanimity and that inner peace inside themselves versus reaching outside. If there's anybody out there that's struggling, you never have to feel the way that you feel about yourself. ever again, if you're willing to honestly apply the methodology that was developed that has liberated millions of people. It's not the only way, but it's it's a way that that is accessible in every community everywhere. And ⁓ and that there is no cross purpose between your spiritual development and enfoldment and the working of the twelve steps. It's a hand in hand thing that's available. Okay. Well and I think You know, sometimes the human struggle, whatever it is, in and of itself ends up being such a rite of passage because it provides you with the contrast necessary to be able to genuinely appreciate what life in yourself looks like on the other side of that, you know. If the whole world were blue, we wouldn't know what blue is. We only know blue because of red, green, yellow, and orange, all the contrasts. And so sometimes these bouts of suffering that we have to go through, you know, like Bill Wilson coming to that space where he just could not find a way out. And then all of a sudden it's like you contract to the size of a pinhole and then you expand on the other side of it. And now you have the capacity for gratitude and appreciation and expansion in ways that you never did before. And it was that. journey of the human condition. So it's really fun. ⁓ well on Saturday will be the fourth anniversary of my my muse, ⁓ Adele Shea dropping her body. And and you know having been through that particular pinhole of of suffering and watching someone that I you know I was fortunate to To be in love with this person for 28 years. And ⁓ you know, there was there was a real lack of human power there. But when I die, when I drop my body, you know what's gonna happen? I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna be in a field. I'm gonna look and there's gonna be a gate. I'm gonna walk through the gate. And the creatrice is gonna be there. She's gonna be smoking a cigarette. She's gonna say, Jay, baby, how are ya? It's so good to see you. Did you have a good time? Now Am I gonna sit there and go, What did she would have back there? The the human condition, you know? And she's gonna say, Baby, I told you I'd meet you here at this time and in this place. Now, did you have a good time? And and and I am and have had. But the reason I can have such a good time is because I'm faithful to the practice. Because I get that mind body connection that you're talking about. And that ⁓ Then I don't ⁓ I don't have to take my life personally. Beautiful. Okay. Well, the last question we always like to end with on this podcast is ⁓ we call it the inner well, you know, to depict that place inside you that you connect with in all of these different spiritual practices, ⁓ as it relates to this podcast specifically, TM. And so what does the inner well mean to you and what do you think it meant to Bill Wilson? What practice means to me is that humility that Wilson had, that I did not cre that that the problems that I have are a creation of my own consciousness, that my consciousness can, through certain actions and certain practices, be rearranged. And that each day, everyone that I'm engaged with, I have the opportunity to not say it, but to represent what being reborn looks like. Because I'd reached, as Wilson did, the Nadir. And ⁓ and now I ⁓ I have the good fortune to be with you. I mean how much fun is the universe having to put you and I together and hopefully to provide some some ⁓ encouragement to your ⁓ to your ⁓ listeners and and There's a wonderful line in chapter five in the book Alcoholics Anonymous and it says, do not be discouraged. Maybe the most powerful thing we can say to each other. Do not be discouraged. Because courage is a wonderful quality that we all possess. Yeah, I agree. And I think that, you know, having access to the space inside of us that allows for us to hold. A more genuine experience of self enables us to come out with that courage that we need to continue moving through. And don't take yourself too seriously. Right. I am the punchline of the cosmic joke. Yep, exactly. And so what do you think the inner well meant to Bill Wilson? Do you think it was his source for courage? I have no idea what it was like to not have the fellowships available. What it was like ninety five years ago when all they could do was give you a lobotomy or stick you in a hospital or a ⁓ you know, in and not a not a hospital to for for rehabilitation just to stick you away or put you in jail or or d just walk in the streets. I have no idea what that was like. And he was conscious of that. And he knew that it was not him. It was something that came through him. And any goodness that that that there is in in my life, I also am cognizant that it is not, you know, of me. Uh-huh. It's the universe flowing through me. Yeah. And it's a beautiful thing to behold when you can witness that. Every each day by coming and and and getting that getting in contact with that inner peace, we have the ability As we come out, practice to actually see the world anew and ask, what would you have me do? What do I get to do next? Yeah. Well, Jay, thank you so much for taking the time and for sharing Bill's story with us and just allowing for all of the inspiration that comes from a journey like that. I know that our listeners will really appreciate it. My great pleasure. My great pleasure. And thank you so much for allowing me to spend time with your consciousness and reflecting your consciousness to you. That's a wrap on today's episode of The Inner Well. Please subscribe and leave a review. Your support means the world and helps others find us. And if this conversation added something to your day, don't be shy. Share it with someone it might resonate with. 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