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The Psychology of Better Sex: How Intimacy Can Strengthen Your Relationship w/ Dr. Ian Kerner · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm U.A.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Xu.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is the psychology of relationships.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Sex is often treated as something we should just know how to navigate, but great intimacy requires curiosity, communication, and understanding.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The way we approach sex can have a feature impact on how connected we feel with our partners.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're joined by Ian Kerner, licensed psychotherapist, nationally recognized sex therapist, and New York Times' best-selling author of She Comes First, among other books.
0:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Known for his work, helping couples improve their intimate relationships, Ian shares his expertise on pleasure, communication, and creating deeper sexual connections.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Together we explore why being clitorate matters, why pleasure goes far beyond intercourse, how couples can begin exploring in the bedroom and ways that feel approachable, in the important conversation shaping how we understand sex today, because a healthy sex life isn't just about technique,
1:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about trust, vulnerability, and creating a space where both partners feel seen and connected.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
1:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And if this episode shifted how you think about sex and intimacy, we love a rating or review.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy!
1:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about sex.
1:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Showy, we should always be talking about sex.
1:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And the question is always not about how much sex should you be having or what type of sex is really about how to make sex more pleasurable.
1:42
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems like one of those things that we don't really talk about, I mean, we certainly didn't learn it in school.
1:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And we should learn more about it, right?
1:49
[SPEAKER_02]: There needs to be some sort of education around it.
1:51
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm sure some of you and more many of you may have a copy of the book she comes first.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and we are so lucky to have the author with us Ian Kerner for this episode where we'll be talking about how to have plageable sex.
2:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we're so excited to have you Ian.
2:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm totally excited to be here and I'm so excited that you brought up she comes first because it's uh I wrote it a while ago but it remains you know out there in the world and one of my favorite books that I've done so I'm happy that you brought it up.
2:23
[SPEAKER_00]: iconic and and you know the uh the banana is very much in the background that was purpose yes uh by my post so I don't know she wanted a big papaya and a little banana
2:34
[SPEAKER_01]: as the way it should be done.
2:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So you've clearly been an expert in the sex field.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like how did you even get started?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What gave you the drive to educate here?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
2:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it really goes back to growing up as an emerging young adult back in the 80s.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And this was,
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[SPEAKER_00]: pre-internet, pre-magazines like men's health.
2:58
[SPEAKER_00]: There was really little to no information.
3:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up in a very sex avoidant home with a single mom.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't sex negative.
3:06
[SPEAKER_02]: It just wasn't sex positive.
3:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really struggled with sexuality.
3:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I particularly struggled with sexual problems.
3:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And actually, she comes first begins with the line.
3:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the hardest thing I ever had to write.
3:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Confessions of a premature ejaculator.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: and you know that was an issue that I struggled with and back then I mean it just led me to feel forward and depressed and despair and because basically I couldn't get the love making in the sex that was in my head to connect with my penis and I was a really poor lover and there were so many misconceptions at the time and so really in trying to
3:48
[SPEAKER_00]: figure out how to get on the other side of that issue.
3:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I really began to educate myself.
3:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I read Kinsey and Masters in Johnson and share heights.
3:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So it really launched my career as a sex therapist just trying to be in the world as a lover.
4:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It was powerful work and it continues to be my own journey, just always evolving my own sexuality across as I go through the life cycle
4:18
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, other people around their sexuality, but really understanding that we have these sexual selves and our sexual self is a central part of who we are and many of us exile our sexual selves or, you know, push our sexual selves away.
4:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So helping people to integrate their sexual selves into their lives is kind of where my work is at.
4:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I would argue that a lot of people may have been in the same position or still are in the same position where they just feel like that's the way sex should be.
4:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if it's just not pleasurable, they may feel like this is the way it is.
4:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So what was the turning point for you where you thought, no, this has got to be better than that?
4:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I ever felt that sex should just be, you know, mediocre or, you know, I mean, I do find with a lot of my patients that they do come in with strong beliefs, like, oh, sex should be painful.
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of women actually come and believe in that sex comes with some pain, or a lot of women come and believe in, you know, basically orgasms or for masturbation, not for
5:22
[SPEAKER_00]: partner sex or pleasure isn't for partner sex.
5:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot of men and women who come in saying, well, sex just isn't that important, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like married people don't have sex.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So why should I be picking a partner with any degree of real sexual attraction or caring about sex?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of people like kind of
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[SPEAKER_00]: push sex down the ladder to kind of like, you know, the bottom of the ladder there, but I think and maybe this is why I ended up in this work that, you know, sexuality, sensuality, connecting, love making, skin against skin, breath with breath.
5:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It was always hugely important to me and I really wanted to, I mean, she comes first as about being a caring lover and being a courteous lover
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[SPEAKER_00]: wanting to give pleasure and knowing that the real pleasure is not just in receiving but in giving pleasure.
6:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
6:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that book was so iconic.
6:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, for so many reasons, but I think because it was written by a heterome and focused on women's pleasure and what you just said, giving over just receiving.
6:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like the message before your book was very much orgasm, get the pleasure, you know, like, don't worry about your partner as much.
6:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Why did you feel like this message needed to be heard of this book?
6:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, like I said, I was struggling with premature ejaculation.
6:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically, I wanted to increase the length in which I could my duration, my sexual duration.
6:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And as I was reading and as I was researching and learning, I really started to understand, I started to become clitorid.
6:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, I was you know, clitorate and I started to become clitorate and really understand the role of the clitoris is the powerhouse of the female orgasm and I realized that hey, I could figure this issue out and last as long as I want, but that doesn't actually mean I'm going to be engaging in pleasurable sex because.
7:17
[SPEAKER_00]: 80% of women do not orgasm from intercourse alone because, you know, the most sexual positions failed to adequately stimulate the clitoris.
7:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So really, my mission went from just trying to last longer in a very kind of penis phyllo-centric way to really just developing a whole new paradigm of sex that was outercourse-based
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[SPEAKER_00]: not intercourse-based.
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, that is still one of the fundamental issues that I find individuals and couples coming in with.
7:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my new book is called So Tell me about the last time you had sex.
7:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And basically, if I'm working with a heterosexual individual or a heterosexual couple, 95% of people in the last time they had sex, it was intercourse-based.
8:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Intercourse
8:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I asked them how long did it take you to get to intercourse, most couples will say anywhere from zero seconds to six minutes, right?
8:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's like very little happening other than intercourse.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that became my main message much more so than just giving pleasure last and longer.
8:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It really became, you know, developing what I call a sex script, the sex that you engage in, that's uniquely your own and rebelling against the cultural sex script that's so intercourse-based.
8:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I want to focus on that because I want to jump around a little bit.
8:49
[SPEAKER_02]: When you're talking about how people do jump into intercourse quite fast, you also talk about in the book, she comes first, turning four play into core play.
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So what does that mean?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm guessing it's around along the same lines.
9:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is.
9:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It really means just intercourse gets so privileged as a behavior, right?
9:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, a hand against a vulva, a mouth against a vulva, a mouth on a mouth, a mouth on a penis.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right, those activities get so sort of deep privilege and intercourse gets so privileged.
9:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So, in treating full play into co-play, first of all, it's just recognizing.
9:24
[SPEAKER_00]: If those are the behaviors that we associate with foreplay are just as important, if not more important than intercourse, and building sex scripts that are based on those behaviors, you know, there was a study done of gay and bisexual men, 25,000 gay and bisexual men, and they were asked about the last time they had sex, and only 35% actually engaged in intercourse.
9:50
[SPEAKER_00]: 65% of gay and bisexual men engaged in outer course-based sex scripts.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They basically took 10 behaviors, 10 basic behaviors, everything from kissing on the mouth to hand against penis.
10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, all that kind of four-placed stuff.
10:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But in the end, I believe there were more than 1300 combinations.
10:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Those 10 behaviors were put together.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and more than 1300 combinations of these 25,000 men to just show you the incredible variety that can go into turning four play into core play in a very personalized way.
10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the
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[SPEAKER_01]: penetration bit.
10:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's very heteronormative too, right?
10:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you touched on it, like especially lesbian couples and, you know, all different configurations, sex doesn't need to mean just intercourse.
10:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't need to just mean intercourse.
10:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess like out of those all the combinations, like I could think of, you know, the obvious ones, but maybe what are some of the less obvious ones that kind of surprise do that may get our listeners being like, oh, it didn't
10:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you know, I also just wanted to say one thing which is, in my work, once I eventually became totally outer core space and totally clitter it and I see this with young people today, I was shocked how many women are heterosexual women are intercourse focused.
11:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I work with so many men who would love nothing more.
11:20
[SPEAKER_00]: than to take the emphasis off of their penises, right?
11:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And to be able to focus on their mouths and their hands and get rid of, I know you did a show on sexual anxiety about erectile and predictability.
11:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know how many men crave just like outer course and taking the pressure off, but there were partners who were very intercourse focus.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm always so curious, like intercourse
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[SPEAKER_00]: Half of these women will say, yeah, I don't expect to orgasm.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's just the thing that I associate with sex.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then I want most.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Very interesting.
11:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sorry, but I didn't mean to digress.
11:59
[SPEAKER_00]: The question was what are the most like quirky or... Yeah, or like unique like ways to pleasure that you would have come in about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If there's a few that come to mind, you don't take that through all 13, you know, the behaviors themselves are not unique.
12:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you look at how they're organized and apparently the more sexual behaviors that you have in a sex script,
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[SPEAKER_00]: the more likely you are to generate arousal pleasure and orgasm, but honestly there's simple things like kissing and hugging and oral sex and manual stimulation and what's interesting too is how you organize those behaviors in your sex scripts and sometimes I work with couples and intercourse doesn't have if you de-privilege intercourse
12:51
[SPEAKER_00]: then it doesn't have to be the main activity or the final activity.
12:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be an activity that happens in the middle and then you switch to other activities, right?
13:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's really just like thinking of this sort of like pallet of colors that you can basically paint with.
13:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And the ultimate idea is that you want a sex script with your partner that just generates pleasure, right?
13:14
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole thing you had Emily in the GoSki and I noticed I was looking for all of your apaga.
13:19
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole idea of pleasure being the measure, I think, is very powerful.
13:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's fascinating.
13:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You're a book title.
13:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It starts to be like, oh, what was the last time I had sex?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking about it.
13:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And by mind, immediately goes to intercourse.
13:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It does not go to just kissing or touching all that.
13:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think you're very right that that is the perception of what sex is.
13:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and, you know, we're right now, we're also just talking about, you know, physical behaviors, but one of the biggest things that I've noticed in my practice is that couples build sex scripts, whether they work or not, that are totally physically based and are lacking in psychological or else.
14:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of my missions is to really help couples kind of sheath a sex script, sheath those behaviors in some kind of psychological experience that gets the mind erotically turned on.
14:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think someone would need to be clitorate to do that?
14:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Need to be clitorate to do what exactly to have pleasurable sex?
14:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I think that somebody would need to be clitorate to have pleasurable sex?
14:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if there's someone with a Malva in the room that's looking to have
14:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess it would depend upon, you know, your definition of pleasures, pleasure, you know, a psychological experience, is it a physical experience to what extent to orgasms matter, but, you know, for most of the patients that I work with, they want to have, you know, pleasurable sex, they sometimes want to have fun sex, or meaningful sex, and they usually like that sex to be an absorbing experience that generates a rousal that culminates in,
15:06
[SPEAKER_00]: an orgasm.
15:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you are a person with a vulva, then I think it's really important that you as the person with a vulva are in a clearer mindset so that you can advocate for that kind of stimulation.
15:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's really important that partners are clitorate or willing to work on their clitoracy.
15:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm asking this question because I love reading the book reviews of she comes first because there are so many women who were shocked by how much a hetero man could know so much about female body to the point where a lot of these women felt like they were educated about their own bodies.
15:46
[SPEAKER_02]: One review woman said, he has definitely done his homework.
15:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm curious to know how do you become clearer it?
15:52
[SPEAKER_02]: What is even for someone who doesn't even have a clitoris?
15:56
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you become?
15:59
[SPEAKER_01]: this way, child.
16:01
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so great.
16:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think first of all, I really understand in the anatomy of the clitoris and understanding that the clitoris involves external structures that are on the surface of the vulva and internal structures that are inside the vaginal entrance.
16:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So first of all, you know, a lot of my book just focuses on the structure of the clitoris and
16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And definitely the glands or the head of the clitoris, which would be the equivalent of the glands or the head of the penis, is the most sensitive part of the clitoris.
16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But they're actually, they're called chlorof.
16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: There are legs.
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine the clitoris and imagine the tip of the clitoris is what's visible on the surface of the vulva.
16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And you definitely want to stimulate that rhythmically and consistently.
16:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can imagine that that part of the clitoris is probably a few centimeters at least above the vaginal entrance, right?
17:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So the position of the clitoris, the glands of the clitoris,
17:04
[SPEAKER_00]: in relationship to the vaginal entrance, there's definitely could be up to like a half inch, so you can imagine that most intercourse position could really miss the clitoris completely.
17:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So you definitely want to think about intercourse positions that are going to be able to stimulate the glands of the clitoris.
17:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically the female superior position or woman on top is a great
17:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But here's what's also interesting is that we talk about the G-spot, right?
17:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And sort of these internal regions of the vagina.
17:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And we talk about vaginal orgasms.
17:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you look at the structure of the clitoris, it is basically a wishbone, right?
17:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's the tip of the clitoris that we're seeing.
17:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there are these legs that literally wrap around the entrance of the vagina.
17:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So when women are experiencing vaginal pleasure, it is because the friction of intercourse is creating vibration against those clitoral structures.
18:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not like that vaginal pleasure is independent of the clitoris.
18:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So also then understanding that the most sensitive part
18:14
[SPEAKER_00]: of the vagina is going to really be the first two inches and the vaginal entrance and creating the right kind of friction and vibration to get the clitoris, all those clitoris structures completely in life and so that's sort of from an anatomical perspective.
18:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But the thing that really bugs me is that so many of my patients come in, and the first thing they do is go to that kind of direct general stimulation of oral sex, they really think of it as like, oh, that's the first thing I'm going to do, and so it's like great activity, wrong time.
18:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because there also has to really be a buildup of a rousal, psychological arousal and physical arousal.
19:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's also understanding the timing of sort of when to focus on being clitorate, right?
19:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So like oral sex or
19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: direct clitoral stimulation is not the first thing you do within 30 seconds of hooking up.
19:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's also about thinking about the overall process of arousal.
19:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just so curious because I continue to be baffled by the 80% of women do not orgasm through intercourse.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's stat like very much surprises me and I know it's like I've heard it a lot.
19:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm thinking about even like the interview we do with Emily and Gaskin and everyone's wired different based on how much arousal they need and stimulation.
19:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess like from what you were just saying, is it that you know women's bodies are just so different with their anatomy or is it like what is kind of the reason like why some women have no probable orgasming or like through intercourse and others don't?
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So there isn't orgasm gap, and that orgasm gap exists along two dimensions.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: One is related to the distance between the clitoris and the vaginal entrance.
20:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So some women are going to actually have a clitoro glands that's closer to the vaginal entrance, and the clitoris might actually be more consistently stimulated during intercourse.
20:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So that might be one reason.
20:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, we also said that the G-spot is effectively literal structures wrapped around the vaginal canal.
20:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the vagina is not meant to be sensitive.
20:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's meant to deliver babies, right?
20:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Women do not need more sensitive nerve endings when delivering babies, like it's painful enough, right?
20:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can also imagine that for some women who are really turned on just getting
20:45
[SPEAKER_00]: friction of a penis in and out of a vagina can create a level of vibration that really reverberates through the clitoral structures.
20:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one dimension which is to do with clitoracy.
20:57
[SPEAKER_00]: The other dimension that we talked about with time is also really important because sex especially for women and I'm not really not trying to generalize.
21:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just sort of working off of you know research
21:12
[SPEAKER_00]: sex, especially for women, is a process of getting absorbed, right?
21:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So you had Emily Nagoski on and she must have talked about sort of inhibitors and exciters and turning on the odds and turning off the offs.
21:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Men are much less vulnerable to turn off, right?
21:29
[SPEAKER_00]: They're able to really engage their exciters, get very absorbed in sex, get aroused, and keep going.
21:36
[SPEAKER_00]: There was one of my favorite
21:40
[SPEAKER_00]: back in the early 2000s, think a dozen women were placed in FMRI scanning tubes to see what goes on in the female brain during sexual arousal.
21:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So about a dozen women were putting these sort of big scanners, these like MRI machines, while their partners basically master me, you know, outside the tube, right?
21:59
[SPEAKER_00]: What a fun test.
22:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, where does that research happen?
22:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically, what was so interesting is the question was, what's going to be happening in the female brain during this process of going from non-aroused to aroused and what was really interesting and what's different than the male brain is, well, first of all, there was a lot of activity in the female brain that was associated with an area called the somatosensory cortex that recognizes physical, central sensation.
22:33
[SPEAKER_00]: touch the vagina part of the brain lights up, right?
22:36
[SPEAKER_00]: What was fascinating was though at a certain point the female brain went from being very lit up to really going dark and where it went dark was in regions that were associated with the environment with stressors.
22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: with anxiety, with observing the environment, so basically to get really turned on, women also had to be able to turn off a part of their brains, right?
23:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So you asked why are some women more orgasmic during intercourse than others?
23:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I would argue
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: that those women are probably able to get more present, more mindful, just more absorbed in the sex that they're having than women were not, right?
23:18
[SPEAKER_00]: They're able to kind of go at a certain point into a kind of like flow state or auto-pilot state.
23:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's those two dimensions, right?
23:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Clitoral stimulation with the absorption in the sexual experience, with the mental absorption.
23:33
[SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, this might be a very very ignorant question, but I only know what I know, so I only know the types of orgasms I've had.
23:41
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I know that there could be better orgasms out there?
23:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I've heard people, I mean, at least on TV describe this whole body orgasm that I don't think I've ever felt, but maybe I could work on that.
23:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So, how do I know it could be better and how do I even work on that better orgasm?
23:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you work on it?
23:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you work on it?
23:59
[SPEAKER_00]: The first thing I'm thinking about is the bullshit that's associated with trying to like go after some kind of super orgasm because as soon as you start as soon as you start to try to do something you're thinking about doing that thing and once you're thinking about doing that thing you're conscious and actually orgasm as a process of going a little unconscious
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: right and sort of leaving you know be able to turn off your brain right so you don't want to be thinking about anything you want to be clearing your mind so right already then thinking about having a super massive extended orgasm already I think goes on the inhibitor side
24:37
[SPEAKER_00]: of the spectrum.
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: That is honestly the first thing that comes to mind is like this holy grow of some extended massive orgasm.
24:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's bullshit.
24:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's just more more marketing around trying to get your body to do something that's not intuitive.
24:54
[SPEAKER_00]: What is interesting though is sometimes I'll have women come in and they'll say, well yeah, I had 80 orgasms the last time I had sex.
25:01
[SPEAKER_00]: and thinking for myself, you had 80 orgasms.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really interesting that women do have the innate capacity to have multiple orgasms in ways that men do not, right?
25:12
[SPEAKER_00]: After a man has an ejaculation.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Love him.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Completely evacuates the, uh,
25:17
[SPEAKER_00]: the genitals, right, and a man goes very quickly from an arouse state to a non-arouse state.
25:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But in women, blood is slower to flow into the genitals and much slower to flow out.
25:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So women don't go back to the prearouse state.
25:30
[SPEAKER_00]: They go into a kind of semi-arouse state and what you want to do in that semi-arouse state is up to you.
25:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You could sort of take your time and go into a nice prearouse state and sort of snuggle and go to bed.
25:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Or you could go on to get rearoused and to have more orgasms.
25:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm thinking when this woman, when people come in and say, I had 80 or 100 orgasms.
25:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I think women come in and say 200 orgasms.
25:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in, wow, you ask, like how much time did that take?
25:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Like sometimes they're like a half hour.
26:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, wait, you had 200 orgasms and a half hour.
26:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
26:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So here's what's really...
26:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's, so here's what's really interesting is and this comes back to the world work.
26:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you've had like a neuroscientist Nicole Prouson at all, Nicole Prouson.
26:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you should keep in mind, there's basically this idea that there's a plateau phase before orgasm, right?
26:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's, um, there's a phase, what is the, let me ask you both before you actually have the physical event of an orgasm?
26:32
[SPEAKER_00]: where, you know, your brain kind of goes nuts and of a giant attract, what do you notice?
26:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just say in the 60 or 90 seconds leading up to that phase, what does that feel like?
26:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it arousing?
26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it really pleasurable?
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: To be really close, to being that weird state?
26:50
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that feel like to?
26:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say very pleasurable like it's like on edge almost like it's like about that.
26:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that is a pleasurable doubt that I say it.
26:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it's like you're so close, but it's not there yet.
27:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's like, I don't know.
27:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I have this like feeling of concentration.
27:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Just complete.
27:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
27:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Can we get myself over that hump?
27:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're thinking about getting to work that.
27:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've been some studies to show that women will often kind of confuse that edging space or that leading into orgasm with orgasm.
27:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there are a lot of little leagues and valleys in that face, right?
27:27
[SPEAKER_00]: To some women that say they've actually had 80 or 100 orgasms, may not have ever actually had what would more clinically be or biologically be seen as an actual orgasm.
27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: which would include contractions of the vagina at half-second intervals, contractions of the anus, right?
27:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And studies have shown that a lot of women who say I'm having an orgasm are actually not having an orgasm, but it's not saying they're not experiencing something or ads, make or pleasurable, right?
27:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's how I sort of look at those 200 orgasms.
28:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
28:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have a question for you, you know, I totally agree with you can't overthink it or just, like, won't happen at all.
28:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And thinking about, like, how do I have a better orgasm?
28:12
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I do this differently?
28:14
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're in the state, you're probably going to have zero orgasm.
28:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, it's hard to not hear.
28:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, this person had, like, 200 orgasms.
28:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do I, you know, get better and experience sex more?
28:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what would you say to that, like, conflicting school of thought, right?
28:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to get an idea, I need to do better.
28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say make your sexual experience and exciting psychological, sexual experience, right?
28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: There are also when studies that have shown that women can fantasize their way to orgasm without even touching themselves.
28:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I work with men who have erectile disorder and I don't know the extent to which it's organic and biologically based or psychologically based.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll give them a homework assignment.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll say, hey, next time we're going home
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: and that's what 99% of men do is turn on some port, keep your hands at your side.
29:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And just let me know what happens, inevitably, almost all of those men come back and say, yeah, I had a total hard on within about five minutes, and then I touched myself and I was really able to have a great, you know, orgasm when I got there, right?
29:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So why are we not?
29:23
[SPEAKER_00]: generating that psychological arousal together.
29:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that all of us are not, but many of us, we do it totally with ourselves, but we don't do it with each other.
29:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're only actually engaging 50% of our sexual apparatus, the body.
29:41
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not really engaged in the erotic imagination.
29:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you want to have better sex, if you want to have better orgasms, if you want to look back and say that was a peak experience for me, I think that there needs to be a psychological dimension to the sex.
29:56
[SPEAKER_01]: very interesting.
29:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So I start exploring things.
30:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you know what you typically hear of.
30:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I try this king or this fantasy and it just feels like kind of like cohorested overwhelming almost.
30:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how would you advise people?
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually an aggressive
30:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so aggressive, you know, like what's your fantasy?
30:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I can't tell like I have couples who come in and it's like I just want to know it has turned on our I just want to come on She's so gotta have some kind of cake.
30:24
[SPEAKER_00]: What's your fantasy?
30:25
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you into?
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like what do you get high in from me and people are like
30:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't fucking know.
30:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I just like to have sex.
30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to have sex with you.
30:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like shit.
30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm not doing that if I do it wrong.
30:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like I'm not kinky enough.
30:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Am I too boring?
30:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so aggressive.
30:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But we all have erotic imaginations, right?
30:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We can all find our way to fantasize.
30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And we could all get turned on by something.
30:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I talk about sort of introducing psychological arousal
30:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And I talk about there being sort of face-to-face psychological arousal and side-by-side psychological arousal.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: To me face-to-face psychological arousal is like two actors on a stage with nothing but themselves to create a scene.
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the ability to fantasize, it's the ability to talk, it's the ability to take a sexy thought and play with it together and bounce it around.
31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And most of us can't do that.
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of us don't have experience doing that.
31:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We're a little too shy.
31:28
[SPEAKER_00]: We're a little too ashamed-based, right?
31:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So giving people, I learned this very early in my career as a sex therapist, giving homework assignments like, come up with a list of five sexual fantasies and share that.
31:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Go home and act out one fantasy, never work.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So I always begin, I always begin side-by-side, which is to say, there's so much amazing literary erotica.
31:52
[SPEAKER_00]: been written today.
31:53
[SPEAKER_00]: There are so many amazing erotic podcasts.
31:56
[SPEAKER_00]: There is so much incredible ethical porn being created.
32:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And we are such consumers of media start to take in erotic media together in a side-by-side experience and let's move into a face-to-face experience.
32:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I was
32:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Then a sex script that was totally intercourse-based, it was non-pleasurable, it had no flirtation eroticism or psychological arousal, and they agreed that they were going to start watching some ethical porn together.
32:29
[SPEAKER_00]: She really wanted to.
32:30
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't, he was afraid that she was going to judge him for his porn taste.
32:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So I gave them the assignment of here some ethical porn sites on your own, do a little research and pick a scene that you think is going to turn on your partner, right?
32:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Pick a scene based on what you know of your partner sexually, that you think is going to turn on.
32:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fun.
32:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It is fun.
32:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
32:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, in the beginning, they each picked pretty boring vanilla scenes, and they weren't particularly turned on by those scenes, but it did lead into a conversation about erotic themes and just fantasies, and then I said, to take the assignment more seriously, what do you know about your partner's personality?
33:11
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you know about their personality?
33:13
[SPEAKER_00]: How does that extend maybe into their sexual personality?
33:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So what was really interesting was she picked for him like a tickle tort like like a BDSM Femmedum tickle torturacy.
33:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We're like the woman is like tickling the guy while masturbating him and he was like why the hell would you pick that for me you know.
33:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And what's interesting is I think it was just she just had like a funny reason like I know you're ticklish I think you've been really bad If you really need to be punished, you know, but it was said in a kind of cute mischief this way He ended up picking for her I think it was like a lesbian
34:01
[SPEAKER_00]: scene and which the loser gets kind of linguist to orgasm.
34:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, that's losing.
34:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That sounds like winning to you.
34:11
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what happens to you.
34:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And he picked that scene because he knew that she was really interested in having more kind of linguists.
34:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And he thought that the
34:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It represented both sides of her, the very dominant side of her that he also saw with the side of her that was more submissive as well.
34:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Long story short, it really opened up so many interesting conversations and they went on to really enjoy side by side a lot of BDSM material together.
34:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But then they did eventually move into a kind of more like we can just play with us ourselves without needing the media.
34:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Take a little while.
34:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's what I mean sort of about going from side-by-side to face to face, playing with psychological arousal, incorporating that psychological arousal into your physical behaviors as part of a sex script.
35:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you how do you even get here like I think like how do you get to this exploratory mindset because I feel like if things are good right let's say you're enjoying your sex life but you're doing the same thing over and over again and you know that could get olds if you're in a long-term relationship like how do you not approach all this when like things are good to get ahead of it opposed to whether it's just not good you know.
35:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's an interesting question because for a lot of people, good is good enough and good enough is good.
35:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't get to meet all of the couples whose sex scripts are working.
35:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, when I think about my own sex life, when I think about some of my friends sex lives, they can actually be sometimes rather simple sex scripts that work over and over again.
35:59
[SPEAKER_00]: and there's already some psychological arousal that they're able to build in.
36:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're asking, how do you get there if things are good?
36:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So one thing that I think about is what I call the erotic thread or the interval in between sexual events, right?
36:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Because sex shouldn't just be something
36:16
[SPEAKER_00]: that you decide to do.
36:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It has to come from something, right?
36:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It emerges from the eroticism that's present in your relationship already, right?
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do focus a lot on couples trying to bring their sexual selves into their lived daily lives in some way.
36:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if it's just for five minutes on the way out.
36:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, people sexual selves, it tends to be different
36:42
[SPEAKER_00]: than the kind of communication that we'll have when we're talking about, like, hey, our landlords up in our rent, or who's going to hold foods to the government?
36:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, that's like a very, like, negotiating relational nice relationship, right?
36:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But the language of sex can be very wrong.
36:58
[SPEAKER_00]: She can be very objectifying.
37:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So just getting comfortable,
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: going allowing your sexual self to speak authentically, I think is so I think like all this exploration is great and very exciting, but we've heard from a lot of our listeners before that they've had struggles when their sex drive doesn't match their partners or neither persons initiating as much as they'd like.
37:23
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been obviously spending this entire conversation talking about how wonderful sex is and how important it is.
37:30
[SPEAKER_01]: In the case of mismatched sex drives, do you think one that a relationship can still work and two, like how do you kind of get over that hump of having this open communication?
37:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it seeing someone like you or is there other things that people can do themselves?
37:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, I mean, I was just listening listening to that question.
37:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We basically want to talk about mismatch libido's and desire discrepancy.
37:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You also seem to ask the question, can a relationship survive and thrive, you know, without sex or in a more sexless state?
38:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have to tell you that one of the more alarming trends that I've seen amongst, uh,
38:10
[SPEAKER_00]: single people or people who are newly in relationships is really discounting the importance of sex.
38:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't quite understand why that's happening, but I have had if I kid you not in the last year, at least a dozen men.
38:24
[SPEAKER_00]: It's mainly men, I'm thinking of right now, who have picked their partners, right?
38:29
[SPEAKER_00]: They're in relationships, they're engaged, they're newly married, they're living together.
38:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And they've come to me because at some point they realized they're not having sex,
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not having good sex, you just, and they're not actually that sexually attracted to their partners.
38:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, but you're just in a new relationship, weren't you sexually attracted?
38:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Three months ago, like when you picked this person to me, it's so obvious you would pick somebody, thinking about sexual chemistry, maybe not privileging it entirely.
38:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's amazing.
38:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard this same thing.
39:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I made a list of all the things I'm looking for in a partner.
39:07
[SPEAKER_00]: ten list of everything that I wanted a partner that's important going forward friends, family, values, whatever.
39:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And sex actually wasn't on the list or it was at the bottom of the list or it was the one box that wasn't checked.
39:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, why is sex so de-prioritized?
39:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's actually that a lot of people who are much younger than they are.
39:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's much more of a split between sex and intimacy.
39:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people are out there having like sex, casual sex, adventurous sex and gender fine sex.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's disconnected, it's split from intimacy.
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So they actually expect when you get to intimacy that there isn't going to be sex.
39:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's also this idea
39:53
[SPEAKER_00]: that once you're married you stop having sex.
39:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
39:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like why bother why should I privilege sex or prioritize sex if I'm not going to end up having it anyway?
40:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So what would would you say to that though?
40:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Like do you think that's like has weed or is that totally like bogus at your opinion?
40:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, why is that normalized?
40:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I listen, you're talking, you're talking to the most sex positive sex there.
40:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
40:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Through believes totally in the centrality of such, my marriage would not have survived if I wasn't incredibly sexually attracted to my wife.
40:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we didn't have good consistent sex, not to say there are a few times that we haven't, but sex is a glue.
40:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like when the shit hits the fan and we're mad at each other or mad at the world, like sex is our way of recharging and putting some positivity back into the relationship.
40:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm, you know, 55.
40:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like, you know, I'm a sexually alive and I'm married.
40:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just say to this.
40:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
40:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Who'd fuck told you that?
40:55
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's the issue of initiation, right?
40:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Just initiating.
41:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I guess my pattern has always been once I get into a long-term relationship.
41:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I stop initiating.
41:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And my partner definitely has that issue.
41:08
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, why don't you initiate more?
41:09
[SPEAKER_02]: But the times that I do initiate are very odd times.
41:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, right before dinner, he's like, I'm not in the mood right now.
41:16
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm like, I'm initiating, right?
41:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Or just in really odd times, I get aroused.
41:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So how does a couple sink in that way?
41:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And especially if one person's always asking the other person to initiate.
41:29
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, it's so hard because in that kind of a relationship you may get labeled the low desire partner because you're not initiating as much as your partner initiating.
41:39
[SPEAKER_00]: or would like you to initiate.
41:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's the high desire partner.
41:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm assuming I don't have those actual, I don't have those actual relationships.
41:47
[SPEAKER_00]: But let's just say you are, you get labeled the low desire partner and the guy gets labeled the high desire partner.
41:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually find that just people exist sometimes in different desire frameworks.
42:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And
42:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when we first meet the biological anthropologist Helen Fisher, who studies sort of mating, she talks about the three brain systems that come together to sort of create successful relationships and the first system that gets activated is a seeking system that's very testosterone based in men and women working with the free testosterone that both people have, right?
42:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to be, both of you are going to feel like you're in the same sexual desire framework.
42:35
[SPEAKER_00]: The next phase is really that focusing phase where you're really just focused on each other and that's very dopamine driven, which also contributes to excitement and arousal.
42:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not until you really start to move into the third system, which is more of an oxytocin-based system, which comes a little later that you start to realize, well, we're not sexual in the same way that we used to be.
42:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I look you had Emily Negoski on it and I imagine she talked about
43:01
[SPEAKER_00]: spontaneous desire for your works and response of desire for your works.
43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds like you a what you're saying is your partners in a spontaneous desire for work meaning he, you know, there's a sexual cue.
43:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of gobble it up and metabolize it quickly and I feel it in my body and I'm ready to move.
43:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, give me that slice of pizza.
43:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Looks good.
43:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm ready to eat it, right?
43:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Impulsive.
43:27
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I do.
43:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, I'm like, I need to be showered, he needs to have washed his penis, like the room has the right temperature, I shouldn't have eaten so much, you know, all of that.
43:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so interesting, like, how different people are.
43:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I guess that's like what makes it challenging to work through that.
43:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so you're in that deliberative for a responsive framework, right?
43:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to get the exciteers up and the inhibitors down.
43:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I compared to going to the amusement park like, I got a fast pass.
44:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I see the ride of sex.
44:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're right on.
44:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You're on.
44:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
44:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sending a line.
44:07
[SPEAKER_01]: You wait waiting.
44:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sending a line from your side to get in there.
44:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
44:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're the sign for 100 minutes.
44:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.
44:17
[SPEAKER_00]: If we're gonna go on that ride together, we gotta, I gotta wait online with you.
44:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And we gotta make that line.
44:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Adventurous, a trousers and a comfortable, or nice.
44:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to enjoy slowing down and waiting online with you.
44:32
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know it.
44:33
[SPEAKER_02]: If we're on vacation, like every day, any time, anywhere, it's probably an environmental for you, though.
44:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more like that psychological stimulus.
44:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm sorry.
44:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember we talked about that study turning off the brain, right?
44:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Already so many of the stressors and inhibitors are limited.
44:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So true.
44:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing about our groceries.
44:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
44:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's been so much of this conversation before we go out to take ways.
44:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to just hear from you Ian, like some of the trends that you're seeing because I think it's fascinating, the one that you pointed out of less people prioritizing sex and I have some theories of why I think that might be the case considering a lot of us have really been in this hookup culture and now you kind of want this partner that we all have this laundry list of things we've want.
45:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a lot of stuff you said, too.
45:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Obcurious like what other trends you've seen.
45:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I will definitely give you trends, but if you have insight into why, especially men in their 30s, are who are sexual, are deprecrioritizing sex when picking a partner, like really deprecrioritizing it.
45:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm all yours.
45:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have a theory, I feel like I just feel like people think it's so difficult to find a partner, the stage, men too.
45:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I think men have educated themselves a lot, like we actually were shocked that 40% of our audience is men.
45:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And we thought initially when we started this podcast would be 100% women.
45:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you know men have gone like beyond of like what is it holistically that I want in a partner we all say like you know with age beauty is going to die out and we all get old and ugly anyways there's like this core of the internal which I think is very important I do agree on that but I think that the sex needs to be there or you're just friends at the end of the day like that's the difference but I think maybe people have over corrected so much.
46:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And because we tell people are always here, I can't get it all.
46:29
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, this is what I'll drop when I have to drop something.
46:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So it relates to getting it all, right?
46:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Which must be a getting it all must be different than my generation getting it all.
46:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it must be like, I mean, there's all these, like, things are much more like what, like, checklist.
46:45
[SPEAKER_01]: People want an equal partner now.
46:47
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what, there's all these things they feel like they have to find.
46:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's also the MeToo movement.
46:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I think has created a very confusing environment as much as it's made a lot of progress for women.
46:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think a lot of men feel like, well, am I being a predator if I initiate, or think I'm prioritizing sex does that make me a bad person?
47:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And even use it in sometimes the way we talk during sex can be very degrading or it can be very nasty.
47:14
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's just a lot of,
47:16
[SPEAKER_02]: obstacles in the way for people wanting to enjoy sex because there's just a very confusing environment.
47:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a little like a shame in saying that that's a quality that you're looking for in a partner.
47:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Like when we ask the people, people very, really say sex actually.
47:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think they'll say a traction, but they'll never say sex flat out because they're almost like I shouldn't say this.
47:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think changing gender roles is really what it comes down to.
47:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like equalizing and then also fall out of me too.
47:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
47:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
47:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's interesting.
47:55
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole me two thing and everything because maybe that plays into the second trend.
48:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think did a show about this maybe recently.
48:03
[SPEAKER_00]: A rectile dysfunction actually called erectile unpredictability or erectile variability.
48:09
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just function makes it sounds sort of like
48:11
[SPEAKER_00]: disease or something, but I am seeing so many men in their 30s with erectile unpredictability, like massive amount of, so I think that that is a real trend, men who,
48:28
[SPEAKER_00]: can't get it up or can't gain and maintain erections during sex and you know, sure we have a lot of theories about that.
48:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think in the end a lot of people blame porn and somewhere men come in themselves blaming porn.
48:42
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I was just thinking.
48:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like maybe that's a factor of it all.
48:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Well and what would be the factor of porn in their mind jewelry?
48:50
[SPEAKER_00]: What would it be about porn that would make it a
48:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe tying it to the first one more than, well, I could say it actually tying to both the first one, why it's less important in general is because you do have this other outlet.
49:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Get off on and then for the second one, maybe it's unrealistic expectations of what sex is with an actual partner.
49:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, you have that performance anxiety.
49:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, because you feel like you have to, you know, perform like a porn star or something like that.
49:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that that's totally true and legitimate.
49:22
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing I think is just, look, you asked me like, how I got my start, right, in this field.
49:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the first thing I described was that sex is complicated, sex is complex, sex involves connecting with another person and pleasing another person.
49:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, watching porn is easy, right?
49:40
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nobody looking over my shoulder.
49:42
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nobody who cares about my performance, so it's just easy, right?
49:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So some of it is just like not being able to fathom the complexity of real sexual connection and it ain't to learn how to do that.
49:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
49:57
[SPEAKER_00]: The third trend, I guess, what is another trend that I'm seeing?
50:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm seeing a lot of couples who signed up for monogamy, young couples who signed up for monogamy, bottom to it.
50:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And one or both partners, pretty early in the relationship, want to open up a relationship and become not an outlet for seeing that.
50:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And as opposed to couples who have started off non-monogamously or like this is much harder because I really bought into the big wedding and for life and in sickness and in health.
50:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like again challenging the script just like you're challenging the intercourse discourse.
50:39
[SPEAKER_00]: you're challenging the monogamy discourse.
50:42
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fascinating.
50:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely can see that.
50:45
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been such a great conversation.
50:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my biggest takeaway I have is I feel like we've almost like overcorrected in society to devalue sex sometimes.
50:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting that you're seeing that so prominently with
50:59
[SPEAKER_01]: couples and while I don't think sex is everything in a relationship, I do believe it's a strong foundation or at the end of the day you just have a platonic friendship and that's what makes like you said Ian you know like you can get through the tough times because that connection is there and I think you know sex is physical but there's so much
51:19
[SPEAKER_01]: of closeness and intimacy that it brings when you are having sex with a partner.
51:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like the shame aspect of sex, like we need to start having more of these open conversations, people need to go out and buy your book and just keep feeling like we can talk about sex and not feeling like that has to be hidden.
51:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that you want someone that you're sexually compatible with as a key thing in a partnership.
51:47
[SPEAKER_01]: where it becomes wrong is where you're like, I'll only date people, I don't wanna say wrong, but like where it becomes maybe limiting is like, only day people over six feet or whatever.
51:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But having a basic connection with your partner, that feels like that should be like a priority and a minimum.
52:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think we need to feel badly for saying that.
52:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And while, yeah, like, you don't need someone that's perfect, like you can have it all in the key areas that,
52:13
[SPEAKER_01]: matter in a long term relationship.
52:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I think ultimately, if this is someone you're going to be with, for many years, like it is important to be sure that you are finally this person.
52:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And in long term relationships, you can learn to change, you can learn to collaborate, you can learn to meet on the middle, very hard to create sexual chemistry if it wasn't there to be human rights.
52:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can make that list of things you're looking for,
52:38
[SPEAKER_00]: and go out and keep looking and say, oh, the what extent is this person meet all nine criteria, but there is something about sexual chemistry that is like, you know, it's a prize just being on a list.
52:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's there's something there that you want to move on.
52:52
[SPEAKER_02]: It's irrational totally.
52:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And then my other main takeaway is it's never too early to be exploratory when things are going well, that's the best time to be exploratory.
53:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that doesn't point blame and fingers of, oh, you're not pleasing me and all this stuff.
53:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more of, okay, we're in this together.
53:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's enjoy our sex life, because you know, if you are choosing to be monogamous with someone, even the best of sex can get mundane, like if you're just doing the same thing over and over again.
53:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't mean that we have to get rid of the tried and true that works all the time.
53:26
[SPEAKER_01]: But just exploring, you just find other avenues.
53:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, like, I feel like so often, we think we have to shake it up when things aren't going well, but that is certainly it, up the case.
53:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree and unfortunately like I really only see people it's I'm kind of like the dentist people come to me when the tooth really is hurting as opposed to coming in for a maintenance cleaning right to like yeah we should have more maintenance cleat eggs right Yeah, instead of a sexual review
53:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You're in the room canal.
54:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I can kind of see that.
54:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Because there is shame around lack of libido, lack of sex.
54:09
[SPEAKER_02]: We often talk about how much sex we're having, how great the sex is.
54:13
[SPEAKER_02]: But we don't normalize that sex can go up and down.
54:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe in relationships sometimes you just don't have the best sex.
54:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you work on getting better sex.
54:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the sex script is very interesting to me.
54:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And I follow this tried and true script that definitely leads us to the ending that we both like, but maybe just revisiting that script every once in a while and seeing like, yes, this works, but what can we do to make it even better or to explore, right?
54:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, what can you add to the script?
54:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And can you start to weave in some psychological arousal?
54:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, you know, maybe like I always talk about having like a a thick sex script at the beginning that has a lot of like psychological novelty and then kind of thins out into the basic rhythmic behaviors because that is when you want to like just tune out and go into like that mutual flow state, you know?
55:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, you know, I think there's a lot of room usually to take a good working sex script and to amplify it with psychological arousal.
55:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
55:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my very last takeaway is like we need to start expanding outside of just intercourse because I'm so guilty of that.
55:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad that you kind of brought that up again.
55:28
[SPEAKER_01]: His sex does not mean intercourse.
55:30
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many ways.
55:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And in a way that almost makes it less intimidating.
55:34
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about like having sex more often and trying new things can just be heavy touch in different areas that you don't necessarily associate because it's not
55:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Be clear it.
55:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Be valovava.
55:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Be clear it.
55:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was, I mean, that was my main takeaway is that sex penetrate of sex is not the entree.
55:58
[SPEAKER_02]: It's part of the meal and meals only taste best when you have a little bit of everything that builds up that satiation you feel at the end.
56:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think the focus less on the penetrate of sex does make the entire meal taste so much better.
56:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You make me want to go home and have a meal.
56:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, which one?
56:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what kind of meal?
56:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, was this whole conversation for play like that?
56:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
56:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I know a sex therapy section is working.
56:25
[SPEAKER_00]: The couple is going to go home and have sex.
56:28
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
56:28
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
56:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much, Ian.
56:31
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been so great.
56:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us where people could find you?
56:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Can find the new book, all of it.
56:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
56:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the book is hopefully stolen bookstores.
56:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say go to my website eincrunner.com and that's so good with social media and a lot of stuff, but everything is on my website.
56:50
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll link it in the show notes too.
56:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much for sharing.
56:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for being on our show.
56:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having this conversation with us.
56:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you to our listeners who are listening to this.
57:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
57:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't miss an episode.
57:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye!