Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / The New Science of Emergent Love: How to Build Relationships That Grow Instead of Collapse w/ Dr. Sara Nasserzadi

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The New Science of Emergent Love: How to Build Relationships That Grow Instead of Collapse w/ Dr. Sara Nasserzadi · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm U.A.
0:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Xu.
0:03
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the psychology of relationships.
0:07
[SPEAKER_01]: We're often told that two people meet fall in love and merge into one shared life, but is that model actually built to last?
0:16
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Sara Nazarzadi, social psychologist, relational architect, and author of the book, Love By Design, six ingredients to build a lifetime of love.
0:29
[SPEAKER_01]: to explore a more intentional, sustainable approach to partnership.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Her work is grounded in research with hundreds of couples across 41 countries and she introduces the emergent love model, a framework for understanding how relationships grow deep in and evolve over time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Nazar Zadi also shares her six ingredient model for lasting love, offering a practical lens for how relationships can actively be designed rather than passively expected to work.
1:00
[SPEAKER_01]: We also explore what it looks like to start thinking like a designer of your love life, whether you're single, dating, or in a long-term partnership, and how shifting from passive expectation to intentional creation can change the way we approach connection together.
1:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
1:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And if this episode helped you see yourself and your relationships more clearly, we'd love a rating or a review.
1:29
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the Psychology of Relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
1:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy!
1:38
[SPEAKER_02]: of falling in love today is two people or maybe multiple people of your poly, but people get together and they merge as one.
1:47
[SPEAKER_02]: But we're going to talk about why this may not be sustainable for the long run and why there's a groundbreaking new foundation for love that is much more sustainable.
1:57
[SPEAKER_02]: for the long haul.
1:58
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where our guest comes in.
2:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Her name is Dr. Sara Nasserzate.
2:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I love you seeing your last name over and over again.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it's so melodic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome, Dr. Sara.
2:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you guys.
2:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait to dig in and change the world to one loving relationship at the time.
2:17
[SPEAKER_00]: That is our goal too.
2:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We are so aligned.
2:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we just like, we've a tie, but we just loved your book, because it's such a different way to think about things.
2:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's just from your perspective, like you a kind of alluded to it, of just kind of merging together.
2:34
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you see is like the current way of being before we go into your new stuff?
2:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, I feel like things are changing, which is optimistic, however.
2:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I still feel like people need a new framework and hence this to the kids of research and everything that I put together in one book.
2:51
[SPEAKER_00]: The gist of it is, I felt like if it's too love, if it's healthy, if it's actual love, that fuzzy feeling that everybody is looking for, it shouldn't be breaking your heart.
3:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It should actually give your heart a break.
3:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't mean to be too poetic here.
3:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I can feel it with science.
3:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is important, right?
3:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one.
3:14
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing is I sat with clients enough time around the world just to experience their pain, witness as what is it that they're chasing?
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it even real what they're chasing?
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had enough of that pain and that's why I really thought that that sub-merging love model, the model that we are abiding by, and something that many of us grew up chasing is not really working.
3:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of sub-merging love, one plus one equals one, finding the one, and then becoming one with them losing yourself into one another, how sustainable is that?
3:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Really not much?
3:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, if we can't really flip it on his head, and thankfully, we can now have Immortal Love Model that I'm offering to the world, and I'm really hoping that people listening to us with an open mind and open heart to be able to cultivate the love that they desire and deserve.
4:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's possible.
4:08
[SPEAKER_02]: That term sub-merging, is that a term that's been around for a while?
4:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Or did you claim that?
4:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, as a person who speaks different languages, I allow myself to come up with terminology that they see, so it didn't exist or whatnot.
4:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And can you kind of describe, I mean, you said the one plus one, meeting the one and then becoming as one, can you go in a little bit more detail what that really is?
4:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, look, if you really start by the language that we use around love, especially love, we're speaking in English today, right?
4:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine that in English language countries that I worked with, majority of people talking about falling in love, love is dangerous, love is sizzling, love is supposed to be the one thing that you need for everything, love is the foundation for everything.
4:58
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing that we are really mixing up here is when we talk about love is that the spiritual divine love.
5:05
[SPEAKER_00]: That I agree with, loving many through one, I grew up with Sufi Zem, so you know, I completely buy into that model, that love is everywhere, love is within us, we are all the reflection of the source, I'm from that mentality.
5:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to the love of building something together, building family, building a foundation together, sharing your finances together, emotional investments in one another, we're talking about a different love without changing the terminology.
5:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's problematic.
5:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I mean when we say sub-merge a love, the two people meet and combine all the
5:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Going down and falling into something is as if you're falling into a trap without our knowledge.
5:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I call sub-merging love.
5:55
[SPEAKER_00]: As if two people are completely enmeshed with one another.
6:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And you give this example in your book that I think put it into terms of this couple that just did everything together was, you know, constantly they were each others everything and I've definitely used this word like the moon the sun's the universe like all of it and it is kind of what love encapsulates but you said that it became problematic like years into their relationship why do you think that they're needed to be another way like what made you start to go down this path of there has to be something else that's actually better.
6:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, first of all, again, sitting with couples from across the world in pain.
6:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, I have to say, I'm a human living in this world too, so I had my own pieces of experiences with love and, you know, with my husband, we were at that couple, bives in the wood, you know, like, finishing each other sentences, completely submerged and we felt like, oh, this is how you're supposed to be, right, in love.
6:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But then years down the line, we figured that that was not the case.
7:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So this was something that was not sustainable, especially as we immigrated to different countries but lived in different places, we started building things, we had child, you know?
7:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Like all of those, then we realized that no, that is not how this is supposed to be.
7:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're not going to end up being fulfilled.
7:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're not going to feel each of us individually and as a couple thriving, so that was my story, right, that I go to details in the book.
7:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But going to that couple that you are referring to, that is just one sample of a couple that I've seen over the years.
7:33
[SPEAKER_00]: They come to me feeling disillusioned.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They come to me feeling cheated by life by everything that we were taught about love.
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: They come to me feeling, well, I thought this supposed to feel good, it doesn't.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What happened?
7:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did I go wrong?
7:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did you go wrong?
7:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe this is not the right person.
7:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe this is not the right time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'm not good enough.
7:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they are not good enough.
7:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe the model is not working.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of questions that nobody is equipped to answer for us, even.
8:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So these were the things that really
8:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Had me think, maybe there's another way to do it, and it should be beyond the anecdote of a person in a relationship seeking something better.
8:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Or a therapist, or a coach, or a consultant, this needs to be evidence-based, and that became the foundation of the research of the two decades.
8:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm loving this.
8:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It's resonating with me because thinking about how initial stages of love, the submergence is attractive.
8:35
[SPEAKER_02]: You do want to get into your own bubble and get to know each other and just be in this bubble.
8:42
[SPEAKER_02]: But then you have to go out in the real world.
8:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can't be submergent in the real world because there are other external factors.
8:51
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love this idea of coming out of this and breaking free out of that mold.
8:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But you've also seen this happen to couples where if you get too submergent, then you just want to survive.
9:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just make it until the kids are out of the house or let's just do it for the family.
9:08
[SPEAKER_02]: What have you seen that is a better alternative to just stick to it and make it?
9:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the bitter alternative, so if I can talk a little bit about the research that we've done.
9:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
9:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Please.
9:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine that, first of all, there are eight relational configurations that I'm introducing in the book.
9:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love for your listeners to walk away from these feeling free.
9:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to put box around people.
9:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, another box, introducing another box.
9:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, I say, through love need to set your heart free.
9:44
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing that I want people to know is that our research showed fact, showed that everybody deserves to be in the loving relationship that they desire.
9:54
[SPEAKER_00]: We just need to make sure that they define it in a way that is realistic and also it's based on facts and reality of life rather than just something that we are aspiring that the idealistic form of love, right?
10:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one.
10:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So the eight configurations around love that we figured in our research where different ways that people make relationships with themselves.
10:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, one of them I call friends with benefit.
10:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Friends with benefit are the people who worked for them all year.
10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: No, yeah.
10:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Lovely.
10:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, people get together and they have agreements.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say, for example, we are traveled by these.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You are my plus one into the parties that we go to.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You are my emergency contact.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You are my six partner.
10:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You are my, you know, whatever partner.
10:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So, there's an agreement.
10:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Usually those people come out of those relationships when one person decides, or both people decide, that that agreement is no longer valid.
10:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the end of that relationship or it could go for a lifestyle.
11:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's, you know, so that's one, no judgment around that.
11:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So, around experiences.
11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: The second form that I introduced in the book is the one that I call contemporary couples.
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[SPEAKER_00]: For people who are listening, if you imagine that each of you is a circle, so in the first model that like the friends with benefit, two circles is standing alone, they have their own lives, resources, you know, all of that, and then come together around an agreement and experience.
11:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Second one, contemporary couples, two circles that are overlapping a little bit in the middle.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the overlap is the space that they are sharing of their time, energy, money, and attention.
11:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine that, middle sphere.
11:43
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people who aspire to be modern couples in monogamous, like, you know, heterosexual, this very normative relationship, they aspire to that model.
11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That they say, okay, I keep a piece of meat and then piece of the other person and then becoming the middle of the shared space.
12:02
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing that I see in couples who abide by that model is that they're constantly negotiating around resources.
12:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's this middle part that needs to be defined and boundary and especially as they go through life and they want to build something like children, taking care of the in-laws, taking care of older parents, pets, you know, whatever that is, that is in the middle.
12:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of negotiation for these couples.
12:28
[SPEAKER_00]: The other category is Submergent Capital that if you imagine that two circles are overlapping on one another, it's amazing to have this love bubble at the beginning, right?
12:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you stay there, there's a very good chance that you will develop co-dependency.
12:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And it can continue until one person feels a smothered, nothing left of you, nothing
12:57
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you going to be attracted to, it's like tickling yourself?
13:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it funny?
13:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like a two very much synchronized nervous systems.
13:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's that issue that we have.
13:10
[SPEAKER_01]: The one plus one equals one that you referenced earlier, right?
13:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
13:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for that.
13:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Sub-measurena.
13:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I have.
13:17
[SPEAKER_00]: The other one is leftover couples.
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[SPEAKER_00]: In leftover couple of them, there are two very distinct groups that I've seen.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One is the group that they have a lot of demand around their resources.
13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And the resources, again, I define them as time, energy attention and money, right?
13:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So they have multiple kids or they have demanding jobs, they have to travel, they have other people or things to take care of.
13:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So they don't have much energy left, much resources left for the relationship, whatever they get, they pour into that.
13:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is left over.
13:51
[SPEAKER_00]: The second group in the leftover couples are the ones that are, they just believe that they have to keep independent lives and then give to the relationship whatever that is left.
14:03
[SPEAKER_00]: In this category, I see a lot of people involved, a lot of managers and nannies and, you know, a lot of people involved to keep that relationship function.
14:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, the second category I call a constitutionally bound couples.
14:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And for people who are listening, imagine that they are two circles within that larger oval shape that keeps the two circles together.
14:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So no matter what happens, if you are distance from each other, it no matter what happens, the relationship stays.
14:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Mostly, you see people who have done a lot of, like, let's say, for example, religious couples, that's a very, like, you know, a typical group that you keep the marriage together, no matter what, there's a lot of emphasis on that.
14:52
[SPEAKER_00]: In new generations, I see that social media does that work for people.
14:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
14:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
15:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So you create a lot of commitment to one another as a face of a couple.
15:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
15:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So no matter what, the face exists and remains and continues.
15:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So that brand of a couple of them.
15:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other one is getting very fitting.
15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, that's so common, especially for dating people, that the other person that doesn't budge, they're not sharing up their resources, they're not going out of their way, they want you to fit in, where you fit in, wherever you fit in.
15:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's so fascinating, like all the different ones at the, like, abysubic, emergent love is, I guess, like, there's pros, like, from what you've described, most of them feel like they're not set up for success.
15:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this kind of where you came in with emergent love?
15:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is the one that kind of works, or do you see these other ways working also?
15:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It depends how you define working to be honest because any of these we saw that people are abiding by them.
15:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example the next one's parent and child or mentor and mentee situation that 1% usually there's a huge age gap or 1% has a huge advantage over the other person which is financial geographical immigration, you know, you're with somebody for the immigration
16:21
[SPEAKER_00]: The image and love of muddle, if people can imagine that the three circles, this is partner one, partner two, and the third circle, be the relationship that they built together.
16:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like a spark and log come together.
16:35
[SPEAKER_00]: In a conducive context, they make fire.
16:38
[SPEAKER_00]: That fire is the relationship.
16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: an emerging love is a byproduct of that, not the result, not the thing that we aspire to, right?
16:47
[SPEAKER_00]: In long run, if you want to have thriving people, thriving individuals, emerging love is the way to go, because if you decide to invite other people into the mix,
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: of whatever quality, some people are polyamorous, some people are monogamous, whatever that they want to do, you know, that relational orientation, this is the only way that bees can hold all of those rather than, you know, just being submerged, where are you going to stack other people, right?
17:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one.
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing is each individual is thriving in their own
17:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you had this really good visual in the book about a pyramid, so maybe that will help put it in perspective too, because I think I'm understanding what you're saying.
17:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the part I'm still like, what's the difference between the contemporary where it overlaps versus like this new entity?
17:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I guess, however you can make that worth clear for me, but also our listeners too.
17:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, if I can put the visual in place actually, so if you imagine the two circles representing the two people, in the contemporary couple, those two circles come towards each other and then share a space with one another.
18:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So for the listeners, I have my two hands as two circles and then I bring them together as if they're intertwined with one another.
18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a shared space in between, right?
18:18
[SPEAKER_00]: But in emergent love, those two entities are standing close to one another, the circles, with dotted lines that allows exchange between these two, and then in their exchange, happens to create the third entity that is that fire analogy that I mentioned.
18:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So there are three circles, rather than two circles intertwined,
18:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's more, I guess, just like why is that one set up for success, where the overlap one might not be?
18:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful, beautiful, thank you for that.
18:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine that I am me with the qualities that I have.
19:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Over a period of time, instead of being absorbed in you, I keep my boundaries lovingly and firmly.
19:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I know where I end, where you begin, and that's a big, big part of being in a thriving relationship.
19:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Within this skin that I occupy, my physical skin, right?
19:21
[SPEAKER_00]: This is where I reside.
19:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So in many couple of them, that is the only boundary they have, the skin boundary that they have.
19:30
[SPEAKER_00]: They allow their nervous systems to regulate each other, over empathizing.
19:35
[SPEAKER_00]: They allow, so, you know, I give you a scenario that's how this get go wrong.
19:40
[SPEAKER_00]: When we have that scenario that I don't know where I end, where you begin, you come from work one day and you are really tired or cranky or whatever I've done something to bother you.
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You come home and then you start sharing that, ah, this happened, your nervous system is sizzling.
19:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really, you know, all over the place.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm not able to regulate myself before I show up for you, what happens is either I take over, I'm like, oh, you are sizzling, you are upset.
20:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me show you what I have, you know, that my nervous system is sizzling.
20:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I say you're upset, oh my God, then I will start falling apart.
20:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Then who is there to regulate who?
20:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is just a simple everyday example.
20:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I'm offering with the emergent love is that I hold my own responsible for my own into me I see what am I made of, and then I will extend the invitation with clear boundaries into me you see.
20:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's an evolving process all the time, rather than I'm trying to put it on you to figure me out.
20:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Just because you love me, don't you love me?
20:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You should know me.
20:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You should do this and that for me.
20:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's enough myself doing the work.
20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I've like, I definitely do all of this.
21:05
[SPEAKER_02]: This makes a lot of sense and I feel like it's overdue.
21:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Our love model is overdue for a face lift because we are still very antiquated in the way we think about love and how love operates.
21:19
[SPEAKER_02]: But do you think that for emergent love to really take off as the next model for love?
21:25
[SPEAKER_02]: There's certain structural changes we need to make.
21:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Like for example, I'm sorry, this is probably gonna offend people.
21:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I still think it's ridiculous that women have to take the men's or women still choose to take a man's last name when they get married.
21:39
[SPEAKER_02]: That to me is emergent love.
21:41
[SPEAKER_02]: You're combining and you're joining someone else's identity and you completely shed your own.
21:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I still remember in high school, at a two friends who were dating, they were so young.
21:51
[SPEAKER_02]: They were like 17.
21:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And they said, when we get married, we're going to come up with a new last name.
21:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And at the time, I thought, so ridiculous, but now looking back and I'm like, that is brilliant, because that is what, to me, that's emergent love.
22:05
[SPEAKER_02]: You are, you still have your identities, but then you create this new joint identity together that is equal parts,
22:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So, Dr. Sar, I would just want to know what are some of the structural changes we need to make for emergent love to happen.
22:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
22:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, I do not think you are out of line by breaking that example.
22:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, we're talking about cultures here.
22:30
[SPEAKER_00]: If we can just open that door for a second.
22:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm coming from Iran.
22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Many people think that, you know, a woman from Iran, how come you talk about sex?
22:41
[SPEAKER_00]: How come you talk about relationship?
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Let alone offering a new model of love.
22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: What is happening, right?
22:47
[SPEAKER_00]: In Iran we don't change last names, it's because because of the patriarchal culture, it's very important for me to carry on with my father's last name.
22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: In some other cultures in the region in Middle Eastern North African cultures, there are different segments that you even carry like for example, it would be your first name, and then the name of your father, your grandfather, and then the last name, all the men.
23:12
[SPEAKER_00]: all the men exactly.
23:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are certain cultures that you only carry the mothers first name or the last name.
23:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So depending on what cultural value you attach to the names that you bring to the table, that could be a different conversation to be had.
23:28
[SPEAKER_00]: However, you have a point when you say the two of you come together and then you forge a third name.
23:35
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the reasons that people came up with that idea was not only for the woman to completely abide by the husband's family and that lineage, but also legally speaking, it would be very difficult for a mother to take their child and
23:51
[SPEAKER_00]: exit the country when the last names don't match or in a school system.
23:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's getting better and better now that many people hold on to their own last name.
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you talk about the structural changes, those are the structural changes legal system, you know, in the legal and judiciary system that we need to have an open mind and abide by a more open system to allow for that.
24:16
[SPEAKER_00]: rather than that, you know, they will look down on your child if they have a long name.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: The models last year are the fathers last year, for example, or if they are going to go on a traveling trip with the parents who doesn't have the last name, you know, on the child that they have to check the identities of the child that are you sure you have the exit permission, what is happening here.
24:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, those are the structural changes that we're looking at.
24:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
24:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Makes perfect sense.
24:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, I'm like, why does the kid have to take the main last name?
24:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's coming out of my body.
24:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So you should take my last name.
24:50
[SPEAKER_02]: But yes, that makes sense.
24:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think theoretically, what the emergent love dissymbolize is creating this new last name.
24:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Whether we have that in practice or not, yeah, that's what I'm picturing.
25:01
[SPEAKER_01]: We can let people that are way smarter than us, do the legal system.
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But sure, that piece of it.
25:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's interesting though because I'm thinking back to like the other day and I was like really stressed of you know, in general.
25:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've ever like, tell me by partner, like I feel like sometimes you don't understand me and don't take on some of this stress.
25:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you don't feel it, too.
25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, do you want me to be stressed?
25:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, no, I don't want me to be stressed.
25:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he's like,
25:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I'm like not stressed because I'm trying to like keep it like you know first while I don't believe what you believe like I believe you can do whatever you're trying to do and I'm like oh I can't argue with that like he's just trying to support me.
25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess like what I'm thinking about this example with what you're saying
25:45
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm suggesting is more submergent love and what he was suggesting is more emergent love of keeping our own kind of identities and feelings and ways of being separate and then looking at our relationship.
26:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Are there other ways that you can start to practice this or how do you get out of the old way?
26:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Like speaking for a friend, aka myself, like how do I move out of this?
26:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, so I have a very specific exercise to give you at your partner a try and let me know how it goes.
26:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And on that note, so one of the reasons that I did the research and then I followed through with the practicalities of the six ingredients.
26:27
[SPEAKER_00]: For imagine love was exactly that.
26:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Because look, we have a lot of literacy nowadays.
26:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that I'm interested in new model.
26:36
[SPEAKER_00]: like literally flipping love on his head, right?
26:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's difficult for people to absorb, although as you just mentioned, it does make sense.
26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but where has it been?
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: All this time, right?
26:48
[SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like, you know, with this model, hopefully, people know that not only it's a new way of thinking, but also there's a new way of doing.
26:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, the six ingredients that I'm introducing, if you know how to show up, how you define them each of you in a partnership, in a relationship,
27:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, with the exercises that we can talk about, then you can abide by them and put them in practice, put your efforts when it matters, and then see the results.
27:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
27:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, in that situation, what you were asking for, you wanted to be held.
27:24
[SPEAKER_00]: There's an exercise that I call framing.
27:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You come to your partner before you even start saying anything, and if you forget your partner can do it for you.
27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: say you could come home and then in that scenario I say I'm so pissed off you know this happened that happened right to your partner and then before you start with that you said you know what I need to vent a little bit you have it in you to listen I just want you to listen can you hold the bucket for me so I can vomit I can't you know so with that little framing or your partner
28:03
[SPEAKER_00]: He was trying to actually show up in the best way that he and you to keep it to level headed to bring you down to regulate you, right?
28:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so he tried to ask you in a way that how do you want me to show up for you?
28:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a good question to ask.
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want me to hold you?
28:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to want me to?
28:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the bucket.
28:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to complain?
28:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want me to, like, you know, like give you solution?
28:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so important in the interaction, because I forget that all the time, but then we've experienced this even in our Facebook group, like when people are looking for advice versus just one event, so it really is such a good way to do it.
28:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Think since you alluded to it, can we get into what these six ingredients are?
28:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Show and how do these correlate with emergent love?
28:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So going back to the analogy of spark and log coming together in a conducive context, creating cozy fire, what are those ingredients in a relationship, right?
29:07
[SPEAKER_00]: If we can think of the six ingredients as that.
29:10
[SPEAKER_00]: One is attraction, one is respect, one is trust, one is compassion, one is shared vision, and one is loving behavior.
29:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of these need to be
29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: not the same, but the reciprocal and mutual, and then, yeah, so we can talk about them as how, because I know that these words people heard before, but the way that our research defined them are a little bit different.
29:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, tell us, please share.
29:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically put, attraction
29:48
[SPEAKER_00]: including sexual attraction.
29:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
29:51
[SPEAKER_00]: They are fleeting.
29:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So attraction is what you value most what you want to be around.
29:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you want to be around your partner?
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And this could be your friend, this could be your child, this could be your coworker.
30:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you want to be around something or someone?
30:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Respect?
30:08
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you keep each other's needs and priorities in mind?
30:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And how do you respect your own boundaries, your own self?
30:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you respectable?
30:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you respect fool?
30:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Because many people come to me and say, my partner doesn't respect me.
30:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And then my question is, are you respectable?
30:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, what do you mean?
30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, yeah, do you walk all over your own boundaries?
30:30
[SPEAKER_01]: That's profound.
30:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing I have to say about boundaries, there's a culture of acquired narcissism these days.
30:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I need my space, get the hell out.
30:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm against that.
30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: If you find yourself acting passive-aggressive, pushing people out, asking for your space all the time you're not doing a good job.
30:49
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you feel like you can own your boundaries nowhere they are, again, nowhere you end, the other person begins.
30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember that?
30:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you put your boundaries lovingly and firmly, then you're doing a good job.
31:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's important.
31:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Trust.
31:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Trust is very much linked to consistency and reliability.
31:09
[SPEAKER_00]: These are the two qualities that I want to point out.
31:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Trust has multiple aspects.
31:15
[SPEAKER_00]: When I talk about trust in North America and Western Europe, majority of people talk about, oh, who cheated at home.
31:21
[SPEAKER_00]: What happened?
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'm like, well, what happens with emotional trust?
31:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Or the breach of it?
31:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Financial, social, physical.
31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: This is all trust, all over, but we just go to that one narrow aspect of trust.
31:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's another thing I would love for people to expand their minds.
31:43
[SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to trust, we talk about integrity.
31:46
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you define integrity?
31:48
[SPEAKER_00]: That is culturally defined by the way, because it's different definitions.
31:52
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing about trust is commitment.
31:54
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you committing to when you don't feel like it?
31:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the most important part.
31:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when we are loving W, I'm committed to you and everything we agreed and discussed.
32:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But when I don't quite like you, then what is the line that I'm not crossing?
32:12
[SPEAKER_00]: compassion.
32:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I invite people to think about compassion as being there for the other person, while empathy is being there with the other person, the example that you gave to you.
32:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?
32:25
[SPEAKER_00]: If you show up with compassion, you are there for the other person without making it about yourself.
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Empathy has a great space in a relationship, especially in erotic space.
32:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Erotic empathy is beautifully done.
32:39
[SPEAKER_00]: You literally resonate at the nervous system level with each other.
32:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But when it becomes too much and all the time in every interaction, it's horrible.
32:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for couple them and any other relationship.
32:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
32:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I think empathy is so overused in everything we do.
32:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I think compassionately definitely is much more important than empathy.
33:01
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you define it to you?
33:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think compassion is exactly it's showing up for someone, but you don't necessarily have to feel their feelings, but you don't have to know it's like to walk in their shoes, but you can show up with a heart that is holding space for them.
33:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's compassion.
33:19
[SPEAKER_00]: That's beautiful, beautiful.
33:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So the example that I give for my couples, just to make it more visual for them, is I say, if I come to you and say, I'm bleeding.
33:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And you say, oh, you're bleeding?
33:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I am so sorry.
33:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't keep it together.
33:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you okay?
33:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I okay?
33:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you okay?
33:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: The other one is, I'm bleeding.
33:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're bleeding?
33:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gushing.
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's another thing, stealing the thunder from the other person.
33:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And if this is happening, then who is bringing the bandet, who is helping call?
33:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, really, you know?
33:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So I see the really clear connection on that one to emergent love, like the empathy versus compassion.
34:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the one I'm struggling with a little is like the trust and consistency and reliability.
34:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how is that different from emergent love versus submergent when you're together all the time
34:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you a very clear example of my love.
34:21
[SPEAKER_00]: In supper to love, when you abide by this model of trust, that you trust that my assumptions about you and the relationship is correct, I'm not gonna ask you because I'm supposed to know.
34:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I see, I see.
34:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't trust that you can protect yourself.
34:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't trust that you have a voice behind what I know of you.
34:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I see, what about attraction?
34:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is just so fascinating to understand like what the line is that's so different about these.
34:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: With attraction, you are in a way, you lose the sight of yourself.
34:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Usually, we are attracted to another person, because either by default, so the blueprint that we grew up with, right, that attraction, we want to be around something that is familiar.
35:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, we want to be far from something that is familiar, because we know that that is in service.
35:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So usually people are polarized around the traction.
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, desire is very instinctual.
35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, desire like I wake up today, I want this for breakfast rather than that, right?
35:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But attraction is socially constructed for the most part.
35:31
[SPEAKER_00]: because it has to make me feel good about me, it has to make me feel seen, safe in a way, right?
35:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And also something that helps depending on what takes you.
35:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, for me, intellectual attraction is the most important thing in my life.
35:46
[SPEAKER_00]: For another person's sexual attraction, physical attraction is the most important thing for that.
35:51
[SPEAKER_00]: For another person, financial.
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So as long as people know what is the most for them, by the way, they change over time.
35:59
[SPEAKER_00]: That is important too because it's socially constructed.
36:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we talk about sub-merging versus emerging love, as entities as human entities, majority of us grow and change.
36:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people are stagnant, but they are very few.
36:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Many of us grew and changed, as we grew and changed, in emerging love, I invite people to change that attraction in initial attraction that brought them together into intimacy.
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I see, I see, I see, I see, I see, into me, you see, and we keep doing this dance as we grow over a period of time.
36:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And there is not a moment when you are with another human being that you could be bored,
36:40
[SPEAKER_00]: because they are growing, I'm growing too, right?
36:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless we stop doing the work.
36:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's Emergen Love.
36:46
[SPEAKER_00]: In Submergen Love, there's no growth, one plus one equals one happily ever after, where are we going?
36:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
36:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one day you wake up and you're like, why do I not feel the same poll of attraction that I did want you first started dating?
37:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
37:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that once the most clear cut, I can get some urgent love if there's desire.
37:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And you always hold on to that initial desire.
37:09
[SPEAKER_02]: But like you said, desire is fleeting.
37:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So when the desire and the factuation is gone, what do you have left?
37:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
37:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that couple that you referenced the beginning of our call that I love them, but I'm not in love with them.
37:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he's not the right person.
37:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
37:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So on that note, do you want me to go to the last two?
37:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
37:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, please.
37:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Just want to make sure that, you know, we're leading up this whole thing.
37:34
[SPEAKER_01]: This is helpful to us to like, you know, put it all together.
37:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And to summarize, we just had attraction, respect, trust, compassion, and two more.
37:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
37:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you,
37:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So the next one is shared vision that where you commit it to go yourself and where you commit it to go together and commitment again is a big part of this because we shared vision if you're not committed to put priorities behind your resources to meet that shared vision
38:09
[SPEAKER_00]: then you're not really committed to that vision for yourself and the other person.
38:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And the last but not least is the loving behaviors that has that quality of going out of your way, giving benefit of the doubt, making each other feel special and celebrated, not only just leaking each other's wounds, but celebrate each other for something that you're proud of, for something that you want to be seen for.
38:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So those are the six ingredients.
38:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the six ingredients.
38:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's very actionable for people to hear.
38:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious why love is not on the list.
38:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that just a given that you have love?
38:50
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you define love?
38:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, actually.
38:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, maybe love is all these six ingredients.
38:56
[SPEAKER_02]: To me, love is, I defined it so well on this other podcast.
39:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, ah, I need to remember that definition.
39:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But basically, it is this respect for the other person that respect in the growth of this other person.
39:15
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how I defined it before.
39:17
[SPEAKER_00]: fantastic, so the high regard that you have for the person, yeah?
39:21
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why you give them benefit of the doubt.
39:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Love in the emergent love, whether that's why this is a new model, right?
39:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So love can only exist and emerge as all of these six ingredients in a continual way they are dancing together and they are mixing together on a daily basis.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: There are phases in life and seasons in life that you need to sprinkle a little bit more compassion, a little bit more respect.
39:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay, that's where I call them ingredients, not pillars that are set.
39:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?
39:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, but when you take one of them away,
40:01
[SPEAKER_00]: The fire dies, and that's my whole point.
40:04
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my whole thing that couples come to me and say, I love them, but I'm not in love with them, and they can't even put their fingers on what is this, and that's not intentional.
40:14
[SPEAKER_00]: That's again, living it to chances, and you know, what is happening.
40:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that's the point I've in your book you said about it, like, you know, that we think that we see a followed love.
40:24
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to meet that person, fall head over heels for them, and then everything else will just work out.
40:29
[SPEAKER_01]: We think of like dating as the active and being in a relationship as a passive, like once you found it, it's all good.
40:36
[SPEAKER_01]: In your basically turning that over, if I'm understanding correctly and being like,
40:42
[SPEAKER_01]: actually in order to have love, you need to be actively doing these six things.
40:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.
40:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm assuming that your audience more, morely date at Bills?
40:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a very, like a question I want to get to, is like, how does this lead our audience?
41:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we're probably majority dating or into like
41:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess from your perspective, like, how do you take all this into dating?
41:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I would imagine it might be difficult on a first date to necessary, like, see, like, one to someone up the capacity for all this.
41:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, clearly, like, you're just not having the time to do all these ingredients.
41:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, I love that.
41:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's dig in, shall we?
41:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, please.
41:32
[SPEAKER_00]: The first exercise.
41:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so when I was writing this book, it was actually really interesting.
41:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I had the best editor in the whole entire world.
41:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So as I was talking to her, she said, well, why do you want to include a whole section on...
41:45
[SPEAKER_00]: individuals.
41:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, well, because in relationships, it includes individuals, right?
41:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually call the chapter what we bring to love.
41:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I can offer some exercises that people can do right now as they are listening to us, think about it and they're really
42:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been time to understand yourself again.
42:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, into me I see if you don't see yourself into me I see you cannot be wiped out of the people to be around you, you know, like with those loving and firm boundaries.
42:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Now for dating people out there, I would love you to carve some time, sit down with yourself when you are not hungry and grittired high like a dry whatever.
42:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe when you are high, no, please, please don't be high, no, there's an easy scientific thesis.
42:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I want you to be in your best sober mind and but feel good about yourself, not just had a big meal or hungry, you know, that sit down with yourself and really go deep down.
42:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
42:50
[SPEAKER_00]: What are your quirks and quirks are the things that make you cute and adorable and you, right?
42:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And usually people have a hard time with that least because they don't know what they are.
43:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm humming all the time, you are the person who is hearing it, not me.
43:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:07
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm making clicking sound, I might not know it.
43:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I was definitely at a relationship introduced by quirks that I never knew I had.
43:15
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
43:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's important to know.
43:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So quirks, you need to know.
43:21
[SPEAKER_00]: For that, you can actually go around and ask people, is there anything that is very specific to me that you're not seeing your parents see the link, you know, co-workers, whatever.
43:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one, quirks.
43:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Second one is pet peeves.
43:35
[SPEAKER_00]: What are the things that send tingling sensation down your spine?
43:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody's speaking, loud noise swearing.
43:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody's chewing with their mouth open.
43:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever, manner is a whatever that is your pet peeve, right?
43:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And third, is sensitivities.
43:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Sensitivities are the ones that sometimes it looks like having a chip on your shoulder.
43:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So based on previous experience, previous positions, maybe your neurodiverse, maybe like, you know, for whatever reason, you might be a little bit more sensitive than your average person.
44:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be based on, you know, around trust.
44:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be around sounds.
44:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be anything sensitivity.
44:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more than any of those things, quirks and perspectives, right?
44:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Be clear about those.
44:19
[SPEAKER_00]: and then introduce them to the person that you're dating to.
44:23
[SPEAKER_00]: As you are assessing your compatibility, think about it.
44:28
[SPEAKER_00]: There are certain things that you can change about the person.
44:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, you can teach them about table manners, so they chew with their mouth closed.
44:36
[SPEAKER_00]: But if they have certain things, characteristics that are your pet peeves, your sensitivities, don't fall for them.
44:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't continue.
44:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't come back to me and say that well he's not my type because I didn't feel sexual chemistry to them.
44:52
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's not good enough for me.
44:54
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you come back to me and say that you know by this person has a job that takes them to around the world.
45:01
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, on a monthly basis, and I have trust issues and sensitivities might think, you know, around trust.
45:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Then don't get involved.
45:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, because I could see that falling into the model you talked about earlier, where it's kind of like we're only a relationship after everything else.
45:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
45:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And also if trust is your issue and your partner is traveling all around the world and you're at home, and, you know, later on, maybe with a couple of kids, it's not going to go well for you.
45:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Or you know a person who's not consistent with their communications and they are dropping the ball, they're not like, you know, they don't even know when they're dropping the ball and they're not consistent.
45:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not the person for you if your sensitivity is trust, for example.
45:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So is it thinking about these six ingredients like even when you're single of like what they mean to you?
45:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that kind of the way to approach this before you actually meet someone?
45:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I highly recommend people to get their hands on the book not because of my book.
45:58
[SPEAKER_00]: But honestly because that's why I gave building blocks in the book.
46:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to know your blue prints.
46:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to know what you're attracted to in all of these six ingredients.
46:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are certain people that keep repeating the same pattern.
46:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
46:14
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to break that pattern for you to be able to be in the loving relationship that you desire and deserve, and hear all the exercises that you can do.
46:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think for me trust was a huge one and that's like consistency and actions with something I prioritized for the first time ever in dating when I met by partner.
46:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that was a huge thing that was again, always not something I thought about when looking for a partner.
46:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can see how this stuff plays out.
46:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
46:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad.
46:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the sound of it, you, you know, in this current relationship, you're doing okay around that.
46:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
46:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that was something that always felt strong of the consistency.
46:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think for me, I came from like an odd to get off a get relationship where I was like never again.
47:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is understanding like what isn't gonna work for you too and like bringing stuff to the forefront.
47:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think it was,
47:11
[SPEAKER_01]: something like I was like oh yeah I'm theory I think like all the sex like it's like oh of course we need attraction of course we need respect but people don't really think about like what does that actually mean and like what does that mean to me so I think that I love how you're like reframing these to go a little deeper than just like the status quo on them and make them more personalized.
47:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm glad that he resonates and you're a living example of that.
47:36
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to know what matters to you first.
47:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that a lot of people and that pains me.
47:42
[SPEAKER_00]: They put so much effort where it doesn't matter, right?
47:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, now that we have the science, we have the research, let's see where to put, you know, this was based on like three,
47:53
[SPEAKER_00]: huge pieces of research, to assess people's thinking is styles and 150 couples who self-identified as thriving.
48:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And 312 couples that I worked with individually to see what are the themes that are actually emerging.
48:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So these are the ones that I really would love people to really give it a chance.
48:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Einstein said, we can solve a problem with the same frame of mind that created it.
48:19
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to think of it a new to be able to solve that problem and hopefully this is a part of the solution.
48:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And to that, you know, we hope that people read your book and then they are part of this new emergent love model.
48:34
[SPEAKER_02]: But what happens when you're in early stages of dating, maybe you read the book and the other person hasn't, how do you bring up the six ingredients and this new way of thinking about love?
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So, first of all, I feel like when you are very comfortable as where you are with your boundaries, lovingly and firmly, then you can very easily say that, well, the other person is dating too, so it's not like they're in a different phase, right?
49:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You can actually say that, look, you know, I came across this definitions of trust, consistency and reliability,
49:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Relationships, I really valued consistency, so even if when the person was not available, the communication remained consistent.
49:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I could rely on the person to come back to me, and that matters to me a lot.
49:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so I feel like, you know, when the other person is not familiar with it, you first create the shared language with them, shared understanding.
49:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That's another issue.
49:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad you brought this up.
49:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You weigh very glad you brought it up.
49:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's another issue that I had, couples would come and say, I might come to you and say, I love you.
49:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And you might come to say, I love you, I trust you, I trust you, but do we mean the same thing?
49:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
49:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So creating shared understanding shared language around these huge concepts like compassion and trust, data.
50:01
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to know what we mean, how does it look like in real life?
50:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, like the fact that you asked me what love is, how I would define love.
50:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess that's something I've never asked someone I was dating.
50:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
50:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We do define love, and how do you know when you are in love?
50:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And do you know why?
50:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, Simon May has a very good book.
50:21
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a philosopher in UK.
50:23
[SPEAKER_00]: He talks about when we equate love with the divine force.
50:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't even allow ourselves to think of it as anything less.
50:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can't even scrutinize this concept, love is so sacred.
50:36
[SPEAKER_00]: But yet, we are dying to get it, to create it, to live by it, to be inspired by it.
50:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to know what it is.
50:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We have it here.
50:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to go into, like, take waste of this whole conversation, but I guess the last question for you is, you know, I think I definitely fell into this.
50:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, once you beat the person, it's going to be, you know, easy.
50:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I did the hard work of dating everything else will fall in place because I wouldn't love it.
51:03
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm here, obviously, is no, that is not the case.
51:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And I
51:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You can tell you three years of tour relationship.
51:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand now that it's not the case.
51:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was a little jar I get first, and I can hear people or listeners being like, okay, so I'm putting all this work into data.
51:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I have to get to a relationship and put more work.
51:22
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you reframe this to effort opposed to work?
51:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Or do you actually believe relationships are work?
51:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say relationships are works that are worth it.
51:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, I've been married for 24 years.
51:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
51:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it easy?
51:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it a piece of cake?
51:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it bridging the cross like Cinderella and happily ever after?
51:43
[SPEAKER_00]: No, please, no.
51:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
51:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But I learned so much.
51:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew so much and I'm so proud because every day that I felt that and I'm like, oh my god, you know, I listen to these.
51:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I stop thinking that's a virgin love is the model to abide by.
52:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It was painful.
52:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It took me years of therapy to get to know me what are my essences, what are my values, what do I want to be around?
52:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it because I'm escaping from whatever that I came from or is it because I'm running towards something that I think should be my ideal?
52:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's constant work, but it's good pain.
52:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's growing pain, you know?
52:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not when we say work, it's like relationships or marriages are used to be.
52:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope I want to think that before this book, it's the reuse to be jobs without job descriptions, but now we have the job description.
52:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know?
52:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's also like reframing work too because if you don't go in with the model of like, I'm going to actually work on these ingredients, then you're going to work when there's challenges that arise.
52:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So personally, I would rather put it the work to understand each other's needs around compassion than to like try to pick up something that's broken or that isn't in a good place.
53:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's just for be reactive.
53:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
53:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like proactive versus reactive at the end of the day.
53:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
53:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think this whole conversation has just been so eye-opening of just how you can really, you know, re-abadget love with all this.
53:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the first takeaway have, I guess just a side note.
53:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even know that you could have another friends with benefits that wasn't sexual.
53:29
[SPEAKER_01]: pure side of that I've been carrying on.
53:32
[SPEAKER_01]: But more importantly, I think the biggest takeaway I had was when we think of love, it's so hard to define as we heard here.
53:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, how do you actually put that into words?
53:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, when you asked you a, I was like, I don't know what I would say either, even though we have a podcast about love.
53:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so ambiguous and hard, but I think at the end of the
53:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that really does like this pyramid is still staying with me of, you know, instead of like focusing on love, it's like getting love from all the everyday interactions and the way that you are with your partner.
54:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think reframing that.
54:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I know personally, I will actively look at like how are ways that, you know, I keep myself while building the relationship.
54:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is so important because.
54:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we all think that, like subconsciously or consciously, like we're trying to get to the school of meeting our person and following in love, but I do think like once you get there, you can realize like, oh shoot, like there was more to be.
54:38
[SPEAKER_01]: where have I gone, like if you don't keep your sense of self.
54:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it is so important if you want something that will sustain the long run, like a 2030 year, marriage, like I'm three years at it, I could see the differences that have occurred.
54:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like it's a long haul game, so you have to have a strategy that's in line for the long haul.
54:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
54:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And on that note, Julie actually, when you say three years into the relationship, you will qualify for the RPI, the relationship panoramic inventory.
55:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.
55:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I've read about this.
55:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to do it.
55:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you do.
55:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, that's another thing that this is from my corporate years.
55:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That every year, we had this review of the three, six, a review asking goal of this college.
55:20
[SPEAKER_00]: How are we doing?
55:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't have anything for relationships.
55:24
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
55:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So to show us that, are we doing okay?
55:27
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it?
55:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Because every relationship shapes cracks.
55:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
55:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you mend them, again, attend to them, then they become a place of growth.
55:36
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you don't, they become veges.
55:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you fall apart.
55:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, thinking about your ingredients, I think there's some areas where, you know, we have it really in an emergent luck, like love cycle and then other areas might be a little more suburgent or not fitting those ingredients.
55:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a really good chef like what might need a little more tending.
55:57
[SPEAKER_02]: love it.
55:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the name of your book is love by design.
56:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's it all.
56:02
[SPEAKER_02]: My key takeaway is in relationships and in early dating, we have to get on the same page with what we're trying to create.
56:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It's what you said, Dr. Sarah was creating the same language.
56:15
[SPEAKER_02]: What does a love mean was a compassion me, what does respect mean, what is being there for each other mean, what are those actions, let's really align on what that means that that could look different from relationship to relationship, they can be very unique.
56:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So it is love by design and I love the six ingredients can really be the guideline for how you define your language.
56:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think, though, that you do need some emergent love to have emergent love.
56:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there needs to be an incubation period for couples to work on just them too.
56:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I could say that.
56:51
[SPEAKER_02]: A carrier in the world, and it's kind of like the reality TV effect.
56:57
[SPEAKER_02]: need that time without distractions to feel like you are one entity, but that's the womb in Europe, that's the fetus in the womb, and then you have to birth that child into the world into the real world, and that's the emergent love.
57:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think emergent love is such a key indicator of us evolving.
57:18
[SPEAKER_02]: we wouldn't be here if we weren't evolving the way we are.
57:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, all of the other love models you talked about, we're dependent on resources, dependent on basic needs.
57:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Now we've got all that covered.
57:32
[SPEAKER_02]: We can emerge out of that and think about what is that next level and that is creating a new entity with someone and thriving out of that relationship that's not just one entity or that's
57:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I really enjoy having this new way of thinking about love with the context that we are evolving as well.
57:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So, this is long overdue.
57:59
[SPEAKER_02]: We really need a new way to think about how we operate in a relationship.
58:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
58:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, we are not satisfied by settling down anymore.
58:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to thrive.
58:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
58:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Marriages are not there to give our lives meanings, but I just are there to enrich our lives, or partnerships, you know?
58:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think, yes, it's been long overdue.
58:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and I'm grateful for all the shoulders that came before me so I can stand on them to create this.
58:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, at the start of the episodes, we always like to like ask it over arching question.
58:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And for this one, it's like do successful partnerships need more than love.
58:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what I've gathered from this is it's still love.
58:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just how it's being built on love.
58:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the ingredients here is defining love a little more than what we have in big
58:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.
58:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I may just give you another analogy that might work for some people, the love, suffering, the love that we know of is like a sharp orange color.
59:06
[SPEAKER_00]: That's infatuation, that going down in that incubation that you're talking about, you're right?
59:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's sharp orange, that feels so good, infatuation.
59:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Immortal love, if you imagined all the colors of a rainbow, it's so deep.
59:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You have a piece of mind, you have a piece of heart.
59:25
[SPEAKER_00]: you're not pre-occupied by anxiety of oh my god tomorrow am I here is the partner is there you know like you actually start putting your energies towards building something together and giving to one another and their relationship rather than just constantly being pre-occupied that's really great
59:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it goes back to that definition of love because like when we think like all we need this love it really is just a fascination.
59:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like it actually needs more which are these building blocks.
59:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes absolutely.
59:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and everybody can do it.
59:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Designed their love life that they desire and deserve they just need to make sure that they put their efforts where it matters.
1:00:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes and take care of their own shit.
1:00:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
1:00:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Seriously, take care of your own when you talked about the bubbles the circles.
1:00:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like yes.
1:00:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to take care of that circle for definitely going to do that lead up thing that you're talking about of like the that is a huge piece of it.
1:00:25
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean?
1:00:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's wonderful.
1:00:27
[SPEAKER_01]: We can talk forever like about this and for anyone that wants to get a hold your book because we clearly just give the surface.
1:00:37
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so much more.
1:00:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Where can they find you?
1:00:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the easiest way I'm on Instagram, Dr. Sara Nasserzade, and also, well, Instagram is for the, you know, like a boosts of tips.
1:00:50
[SPEAKER_00]: They can join the newsletter on the website to receive the resources.
1:00:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And for the book and also all these exercises that I talked about, some of them are actually on the website.
1:01:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called LoveMyDesignBook.com.
1:01:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
1:01:05
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll link it all in the show notes too.
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Fabulous.
1:01:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much, Dr. Sara, for imparting your wisdom and thank you so much about a whole new way to look at relationships and designing the love that we've always wanted.
1:01:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
1:01:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't miss an episode.
1:01:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.