Latest / Therapy and Theology / S5 E7 | Why Does God Allow Suffering for Some but Not Others?
Transcript
- Lysa TerKeurst: This is Lysa TerKeurst, and you're listening to Therapy & Theology. We're so thankful Compassion International has partnered with us to sponsor this season of Therapy & Theology. Compassion brings real solutions to poverty that so many children in today's world are facing — all in Jesus' name and through the generosity of sponsors like you and me. Visit compassion.com/proverbs31, or click the link in our show notes to join me in sponsoring a child today. In this season, we're focusing on how to be more self-aware. We all want to grow, but sometimes we have a difficult time determining what it is that's keeping us from truly healing and becoming more of the person God made us to be. As we dive into each episode, I encourage you to download a free resource I put together titled “What's It Like To Do Life With Me?” This resource will help you find out what it's like for others to interact with you by working through insightful questions with a trusted friend. Now let's dive in. Shae Hill: Hi, friend. Welcome to Therapy & Theology. My name is Shae Hill, and I work on Lysa TerKeurst's team here at Proverbs 31 Ministries. You've probably heard me make some announcements on the podcast before, but today you're going to get to spend a little bit more time with me as I'm here with our resident theologian on the podcast, Dr. Joel Muddamalle. Joel Muddamalle: Hey, Shae. Shae Hill: Hey, Joel. How are you today? Joel Muddamalle: I'm doing great. Shae Hill: Good, good. I'm so excited for our listeners to hear today's conversation because we actually have something special. So we have a really sweet guest joining us today on Therapy & Theology. Her name is Kiwi, and we actually got to meet her, Joel, earlier this year while we were on the same bus tour together. So you know we got very close very quickly. Joel Muddamalle: Bus tour life is real life. Shae Hill: We actually played a game of dodgeball with Kiwi — Joel Muddamalle: We did. Shae Hill: — In a church basketball gym. Joel Muddamalle: I forgot about that. Shae Hill: Do you remember that? Joel Muddamalle: I do remember that. I think we lost. Shae Hill: So like I said, some really unique experiences like a bus tour, dodgeball, etc. She's awesome. But today she's joining us on the podcast, and so you guys are going to get to know her as well. And you just heard Lysa share that Compassion International is the sponsor of this season of Therapy & Theology, and Kiwi was actually a child who was sponsored through the Compassion program. So her story is a full circle testimony of God's faithfulness, and we just could not end this series of Therapy & Theology without letting you hear from her personally. But, friends, I'm going to be honest with y'all; Joel, feel free to add anything here too. The details of Kiwi's story are really hard to listen to, but we know that you guys as our Therapy & Theology audience just means that you're not afraid to talk about hard things in your own life or just hard things in the world, and you always show up to this podcast with your questions, and we do our best to help you work through them. So today I want you guys to show up for Kiwi, show up for her story. I want you to hear how God met her with grace and provision, and I think it's going to be really good. Joel Muddamalle: That's so good, Shae. I remember the first time I listened to Kiwi's story. I was sitting in the back of one of the events and listening to her share, and I was just blown away. I was blown away by her honesty and her transparency but also the power of God and how He worked and is working through her story. So I'm so excited for you guys to hear it. Shae Hill: Yeah, she shares her story with such honesty but also so much joy, and sometimes I have to remind myself to really listen to the words that she's saying because you can tell she's really talking with a smile and with joy, even though she's been through some really hard things. And that's just honestly a testament of what God's done. So not only are you going to hear a little bit from Kiwi today in this episode, but we're also going to spend some time talking through some questions after you hear from Kiwi, and I'm going to go ahead and tell you what those are. So first, we're going to talk about why does God allow suffering for some but not others. Second, we'll address why doesn't God stop suffering when He absolutely could. And lastly, we'll address what is our role in helping ease the suffering of others, including our role as the church. So, Joel, I'm excited for today. I'm excited for Kiwi's story. I'm excited for the questions that we're going to dive into. Kiwi, you can go ahead and take it away. Kiwi: We were living back then in the middle part of the Philippines, which is the Bacolod city. And my dad, he was an alcoholic. Each night my parents, they would fight because he's always drunk. There are three elder brothers ahead of me who died because we just cannot afford the medical care necessary for my mom to have a checkup. So my third brother, he was supposed to be born cesarean section, but my parents just cannot afford the fees. So what they did, they cut my mom open without proper anesthesia. My brother didn't survive. My mom screamed for pain, and it was just ... life was like that at that time. But after that, I was born and another sister. And I just remember growing up in the Philippines, it was so difficult that the very basic needs my parents can hardly provide for us. There will be several nights, me and my sister, we would beg my parents, "Mama, Papa." We could not sleep because we were just so hungry. But even my parents would give up the food that they're about to eat, which is most of the time it would be rice and soy sauce or rice and salt. We would still be hungry. And I remember I would look at my neighbor's window as I was walking toward our house. I would watch their television from outside of their house, but I would look at their table and see food and wonder, Why do they have food tonight? And what's wrong? Us, we don't have it. And this story ... I always tell this because this is a very important story in my life. We don't have apples in the Philippines, but when they were imported from America to the Philippines, I would beg my mama whenever we go to the flea market or the wet market in the Philippines; I would beg my mama, "Ma, I really want to taste this apple. Please ... let's buy." But even a rotten apple, Meredith and Kaley, we could not afford to buy. But I always say that this is not a sad story because our God is a good God. He is good. He cares for us. He is close to the brokenhearted even when we are in that situation that we thought that, Oh, God is not looking at me; He's not listening to me, but He is there. One day my dad [who] was an alcoholic picked up a tract from the floor in his workplace. I don't know if your younger podcast listeners would know what a tract is, but a tract is a reading material about Jesus. So in the tract, it says to go to a crusade. So my dad went to the crusade. He heard about the love of God: for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but have an everlasting life (John 3:16). In the crusade, my dad received Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. And for the very first time, my dad went home sober. My mom was so surprised asking him, "Hey, what's wrong? What happened to you? Why are you sober tonight?" Because every night he would always come home drunk. My dad said, "Nothing is wrong with me. I received Jesus as my Lord and Savior when everybody else said, I'm not going to change. I'm going to die an alcoholic. But the Word of God says: Nothing is impossible with [God] (Luke 1:37). So my dad brought us to church, and me and my sister, we would join Sunday school. In Sunday school, the kids there, they would always sing Christian songs, kids songs. In this particular song, they would always sing the song that Jesus loves the little children, all the children in the world: red, yellow, black, white. They are precious in His sight. But as a young Kiwi at the age of 7, I could not understand that. If He loves the little children, then why is our situation like this? But you know what? The story didn't end there because He is good. We have a good, good Father in heaven. At the age of 7, I was registered to the Compassion program. And at the age of 7, my face was on a packet in Australia, and somebody from Australia picked up that packet. The very first thing in his letter, he said, "Kiwi, you are pretty, and, Kiwi, Jesus loves you." You know what, Meredith and Kaley, I never thought of myself as beautiful when I was a kid. It's not in the Filipino culture to tell their kids, "Oh, you're so beautiful. You're so pretty. You can be what you want to be." I have never thought that word will be attributed to me. But later I began to realize, Lord, is this how You see me that I'm beautiful and precious in Your sight? That I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. That I am, little Kiwi is, a child of the one true God. I would go to our church every Saturday and every Sunday or sometimes after school, and in the program in our church, Compassion partners with the local church. So my teachers there, they would teach us the basic things: brushing your teeth, washing your hands. They will have doctor's appointment or dental appointment for us because we cannot afford those things. But the most important thing is telling us about Jesus. One day my teacher told me, "Hey, Kiwi, yes, you are poor. This is your situation. But, Kiwi, this is not your destiny because in Jeremiah 29:11, it says: For I know the plans I have for you, saith the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Plans to give you hope and a future. There's a lot of people who loves this verse, but sometimes we stop in that verse. We keep on repeating that verse, but there's a verse after that. It says: And you will seek Me. Seek Me and you will find Me. When you seek Me with all your heart, I will be found (Jeremiah 29:12-13). So you know what? I began to open my Bible. I began to read the words of God. I began to grasp the promises of God in my life, memorizing the words of God over and over again. And I began to believe that those words are true, and it is true — they are. They're the Word of God, the living Word of God. So when I was 9 years old, my parents ... It's just so hard to live in the province, and it's just so hard. Of course, when we received Jesus as our Lord and Savior, our life didn't drastically change. What changed was our thinking that God has better for us than this, that God has a plan, that life will not end here. So my parents at 9 years old decided to move to the central business district, which is Manila, but we need to take a boat ride. So at that time, we don't have money to go to Manila. We only have enough to pay for one ticket, which is my mom's ticket. My dad wasn't able to come at that time. So me and my sister boarded this super-big ship, and we would hide in the bathroom so that the ticket inspector won't catch us as we don't have tickets. And it was just such a scary moment for me and my sister. We were in the very, very bottom bunk of the ship or where there are fruits or cargoes. And the people in there, they were stealing fruits from this cargo. And I was a hungry kid. As I was about to get something from that cargo, from the basket, from the fruit basket, somebody told me, "Kiwi, don't do it. Jesus sees you." And I was so scared because I know that what I did was wrong. But as I repeat that line, "Jesus sees you. Kiwi, Jesus sees you." It softened my heart that Jesus saw me in that situation, that He knows when I'm struggling, that He knows if I'm hungry. So why would I be sad or not trust in Him? He sees me. He's there, and He is able to do something about my situation. I thought when we moved to Manila, everything's going to be all right. But it was such a difficult, difficult time that we have to transfer from one place to another because we cannot afford the rent. It would be flooded most of the time, but our heart was just focusing on Jesus, who is the Author and Finisher of our faith. In high school, I told my mama, "Mama, I want to get out of this situation. I don't want to be poor anymore. I want to be able to go to college. I want to be able to take up something." But even ... I know that even if my parents would double their jobs, triple their jobs, don't sleep, just work every day, it's impossible to take me to college. But yet again, nothing is impossible with the Lord. As I was about to go ... graduate high school, somebody from Compassion told me, "Hey, Kiwi, we have this program to take students ... to go to college, and we're going to pay for everything." You know what, guys? God did provide. He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it (Philippians 1:6). I am now a physical therapist, working in a hospital here in Dallas, Texas, because of God's faithfulness and God's grace. After graduation, I need to take a very, very difficult exam that in the Philippines only 2% pass. I was so scared to take this exam; I would tell the Lord, Lord, You said in Your Word we're not the tail but the head. So I want to top my exam. But in reality, I was just so scared of the unknown, so scared to fail, so scared of what people might think if I fail. But every time I open my Bible, God would comfort me, telling me, Kiwi, is there anything too hard for Me? And the answer is nothing, absolutely nothing, is too hard for the Lord. All of my promises for you are yes and amen (2 Corinthians 1:20). You know what? Out of 1,700 students who took the exam in the entire Philippines, I landed 10th place. And because of that, our government gave me a medal. And as I was receiving this medal, I told the Lord, Lord, if only my sponsors were here, I'm going to give this medal to them. Because of them, this is a reality. Because of them, I was able to get this medal. In our church in the Philippines before, every year we have a prayer and fasting, but usually I don't join because I was hungry when I was a kid. But that year I said, "I'm going to join, and I'm going to pray for ... that I'm going to meet my sponsors." It seems so impossible, but yet again, nothing is impossible with the Lord. So March came and a group of Australian sponsors came to the Philippines and asked me to give my testimony. And as I was giving my testimony after that, they told me, "Kiwi, we want you to come to Australia, and we want you to meet your sponsors." That same year I was able to go and meet my sponsors. And when I saw them, I just cannot contain myself. I just ran to them and hugged them and over and over again, I told them, "Thank you so much. You didn't just change my life but my family. And I know one day my community." You know what, guys? My mom became a pastor of a small community church in the Philippines. And before the pandemic, we opened our kids' ministry, our own kids' ministry in our own backyard, and we named it To God Be the Glory Kids Church, to give Him all the glory for what He has done in our lives. Now, 14 years ago, I came to America to work as a physical therapist, and 12 years ago, I got married to a wonderful man from Chattanooga, Tennessee. I got myself a Southern boy. And you know what? My husband ... his name is Terry Cook, and he's an executive chef here in Dallas, Texas. Imagine I was hungry when I was a kid. Now I'm married to an executive chef. What a surprise from the Lord. Only He can do things like that. And during the wedding, I invited my parents to come over to witness the wedding, be there. And after the wedding, I invited them to an apple orchard in Ellijay, Georgia. And my dad, he's picking up apples from the ground, and I told him, "No, Dad. Not those rotten apples. God has blessed us exceedingly abundantly more than we could ever ask or think (Ephesians 3:20), that we're now able to pick up apples from the tree, the freshest of apples." We would have never thought that moment is going to happen to us because imagine when we were kids, we can hardly buy even a rotten apple; we could not afford [it]. In that moment, in that apple orchard, we're just celebrating about the goodness, the grace, the faithfulness, the compassion and the love of God in our lives. He is so, so good. And I know that God has blessed us not to just keep it to ourselves. God has blessed us because He has a purpose. God has blessed us to be a blessing to other people, to be His hands and feet to other people. I always say that there's a saying, "Hurt people, hurt people." But blessed people, bless people. You know, guys, I'm now a sponsor of four children in total, two from the Philippines, of course, because I'm biased. And one from Haiti and a little boy named Juan from Bolivia. Eight years ago, I went back home and saw my sponsored children, and one of my sponsored children — her name is Carla — she was 8 years old when I saw her first. But two weeks ago, I went back home to the Philippines and saw her again, and she is now 16 years old. And I just cannot believe that God has enabled me to be part of her life, to see her grow, to see her mature. I remember what He has done in my life to take me out of the pit, to take me out of that situation, to take me out of such difficulty and make me shine for Him, give Him all the glory for what He has done. I told my sponsor child ... Because she is undergoing such a terrible, difficult situation in her life. Her dad left them, but I told her to not give up. Hang in there. God has a plan. God sees you. He is close to the brokenhearted. He is not against you; He is for you. He's always there for you. And you know what? To see beyond this difficult, difficult situation, to see beyond these impossible things in your life. This is what I did in my life when I was a kid. The first thing is to seek God first in everything that I do. It says in Matthew 6:33: Seek ye first the Kingdom of God ... And all these things will be added unto you. So seek Him first. Before you plan your day, always ask the Lord, Lord, help me today. I'm seeking Your will for me. And number two is to believe in the Lord, have faith because without faith, we can never ever please God, to believe in Him, to fully surrender to His glory ... to Him. And number three is to obey God. Sometimes we love accepting God because He's a Savior, but He is a King too. And if we know that He's a King, He is our Lord; we have to obey Him. Obedience changes the course of our life, and it's in obedience that all these promises will be done in our lives. So I told Carla, "Just hang in there. One day God will give you a chance. God will give you an avenue." Even God will give you a platform like this — now I'm talking here in the podcast — to tell your friends, to tell your relatives, to tell the church, to tell the world [those] who don't know God yet that He is a good and loving Father. That He cares for every one of us. So I bless Him; I honor Him. I give Him all the glory for what He has done in my life. Shae Hill: Wow, Joel, I know we had talked about ... that we've heard Kiwi's story before. But again, just the impact of what she's been through just really hit me afresh today. She has been through so much. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, and like what you said in the beginning, Shae, not only has she been through so much, but you can tell from her voice and the way that she talks, that there's a deep-rooted sense of joy that her experiences have not robbed her of because she's so deeply connected to Jesus and the goodness of the gospel, and the work that she's doing right now to give hope to so many others. And so it was so powerful. Shae Hill: Yeah, I'm just grateful that she not only made it to the other side of a lot of the painful things that she's been through, but she's also allowing herself to be used by God now to speak hope into others’ circumstances who are either still in that exact same place, like the children who are in the Compassion program. Or just somebody who's not in that place, but they just feel hopeless; they're stuck in a place of despair. So I'm just so grateful to hear her testimony today, and I hope that you guys enjoyed listening as well. And like we kind of touched on previously, the Therapy & Theology Podcast is here to help you work through what you walk through. So we didn't just want you to hear a conversation where you're hearing Kiwi's testimony today. We thought it would be most caring to your heart and honestly most helpful for what you personally may be going through to spend some time dialoguing through some questions. And I think it's just going to help us further process what we heard from Kiwi. Not necessarily to tie anything up in a neat, nice bow. That's not our intent but just to give you guys a little bit more space; maybe some of these questions are the ones that you're asking in your heart or ones that you've asked in your heart before in other things that you've walked through. And so I think it's just going to be a really great place for us to land today, even if we can't tie up everything in a neat, nice bow. So, Joel, I'm going to go ahead and kick us off with the first question. Why does God allow suffering for some but not others? And I've even heard people say sometimes they're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. So even when things are good, sometimes we can still find ourselves bracing for impact for what's around the corner. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, I think that's such a honest question, Shae. And honestly, it's a very difficult one for me to answer, simply because often what I think that we want is a A-plus-B-equals-C answer. It would just be so easy to know this is exactly why God appointed you, it feels like, He appointed you this particular type of suffering for this particular reason. So I'm going to say a couple of things; then I'm going to kind of go back to some principled ideas. But the first thing is that the source and the origin of suffering, I think it's so important that we go back to, is a source of sin. Sin enters into the world in Genesis 3, and because sin enters into the world in Genesis 3, it corrupts all of creation. It disrupts relationship between man and man, between God and humanity. And so sin is really the source of all suffering. Now, the big question is, well then why does God allow suffering for some or not for others? So here's another idea: Suffering is almost this thing that can be experienced in so many different ways. You just heard from Kiwi, and Kiwi's suffering is a particular type of suffering based off of her story and the way she grew up and what she had and what she didn't have. But, friends, there's so many of us that have silent suffering. We suffer in different ways that isn't Kiwi's story, but it's a different kind of suffering. So if we reframe this, we might say, "Oh, maybe it's not that God allows suffering for some but not for others." But it might be a situation where there is a variety of a type of suffering. And it just so happens to be that I'm suffering in a way that is a bit different than the way that my brother and sister in Christ is suffering or my neighbor is suffering. And then I think I'm kind of going around the question here, but why does God allow suffering for some but not for others? I think of the story of Joseph. I think of Kiwi. Imagine if Joseph, who he was when he first gave that dream to his dad and to his brothers, like, "Hey, by the way, all of y'all are going to bow down to me." Pretty arrogant, pretty prideful for the youngest son to make that statement to a father and brothers. Imagine if that was the Joseph who is then second-in-charge in Egypt. Well, that would be catastrophic. You know what I'm saying? And yet there was a journey that Joseph went through. And unfortunately that journey, it involved suffering ... different types of suffering in different places and highs and lows, but suffering nonetheless. And Joseph's specific type of suffering actually prepared him and equipped him to be the perfect person, to be the second-in-command for the saving of not just his brothers and families lives but for the lives of many in Egypt itself and the nations that surrounded Egypt. And so I would say that sometimes there's an allowance of suffering simply because God in His kindness and His sovereignty has given us an assignment to, through our suffering, be agents of comfort for others who are suffering in the same way. And think of Kiwi, I mean the countless numbers of lives that are impacted positively, that are being changed because of what she has walked through. And on the other side, she's like, "Man, my suffering was not meaningless. It was not worthless. It had great value; it had great worth." And it doesn't diminish the reality and the hurt of the suffering, but it brings it into perspective ... of a good God who uses even the hardest things in our lives for His greatness and for His glory. Shae Hill: That's so good. Something that you said really is sticking with me, Joel, and that is talking about the source of our suffering. So would you say that it would be healthy for my perspective to be when something is going on in my life that is causing suffering for me, to say the source of this suffering is ... ultimately, if you trace it all the way back, it's sin. Joel Muddamalle: It's sin. Shae Hill: It's not God, which is where sometimes my heart longs to go to kind of pin my suffering onto God as responsible because He's sovereign. But that doesn't mean that He is the source of where the suffering starts. Am I thinking about this right? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. So at the very bottom of it is sin that is the source of all suffering. Now, in that, and you think about the book of Job; there does seem to be very clearly God in His sovereignty ... an allowance of things to happen. And I know we're going to probably get to that in a second. But this idea is that our suffering is sourced by sin. And think about it this way too, Shae: Sometimes it's not just a suffering that is placed upon us; it's a suffering based off of consequences or decisions that you not have made that goes out from us. And so there's a complexity to this that I think we have to be aware of. But at the end of it, the hope of it is that our suffering is not meaningless; it is not worthless. That is an ultimate good that can and will come out if God's people are humble, if they turn to Him consistently, and if they allow Him to work through them even in the midst of their weaknesses. Shae Hill: That's so good. I think you'll unpack this in the next question, but I think that was really good for us to process through because sometimes I'm very prone to want to couple the allowance of suffering and the origination of suffering as the same thing. So thanks for helping us think through that. OK, our next question is, Why doesn't God step in more quickly with justice for those who are suffering and ease their pain? And I know you've kind of talked about suffering on a personal level and also a global sense of just living in a broken world. So I know Kiwi said that she knew God saw her in her struggle, and that's comforting, but it's also alarming to know that God sees you suffering and He could fix it instantly, and He's not. So however you want to answer this question, whether it's our personal suffering in our own circumstances or just the reality of living in a fallen world, go ahead and take it away on that one. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, so I'm a theologian, so I'm going to take a step back, and I want to answer it a bit theologically. Shae Hill: Are you going to reframe the question? Joel Muddamalle: I'm going to reframe the question just a little bit because I think it's important for us. In fact, I think the very beginning, Shae, when you asked the first series of questions, the question was — Shae Hill: Why doesn't God stop suffering? Joel Muddamalle: — Stop suffering when He absolutely could. And so I would just say He already has started. Shae Hill: How do you know He's not? Joel Muddamalle: How do you know that He's not? Well, I would go to an empty grave. I would go to a cross that Jesus hung on. I would go to the reality that Jesus is victorious over sin and death, and through death itself, Jesus actually makes it possible for you and I to be returned to Him. Now, what we're talking about here ... so this is theological, we're talking about an eternal, supernatural, spiritual reality where God is dealing with the consequence of that source of suffering, which is sin. And simultaneously, so this is a theological framework that we talk about often, Shae: the already but not yet. There is an already of the victory of Christ, but we are living in the not yet of the finality of that. And in the middle of the not yet, which honestly, I'm committed, Shae, just like you to honesty at all costs, and I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated because I read this question, and honestly, I have this question like, God, couldn't You have stepped in? Couldn't You have stopped this? Couldn't You have intervened? And the answer to that is: Yes, God could have. And there are a trillion little tiny details that are happening behind the scenes that only God in His infinite wisdom understands and knows. And so I think we have to be very aware that just because we don't know why God doesn't step in to act quickly, it doesn't mean that there isn't a divine, really good reason for it. There was this story, Shae, that I heard from Dr. Tim Keller. He passed away recently, but Keller talked about this illustration. He got it from somewhere else, but I'm going to source Keller. He said, "Imagine looking into a tent, and in the tent is a bunch of puppies." We love puppies here at Proverbs 31 Ministries. And so imagine, Shae, I asked you to look into the tent, and I said, "Hey, do you see any Saint Bernards inside of the tent?" And you look in, and all you see are Golden Retrievers, right? And so it'd be like we'd come to the conclusion, well, there are no Saint Bernards in that tent. But then imagine I said, "Hey, can you look into the tent, and can you identify any noseeums inside of there?" Which these are these little tiny little bugs that are so tiny that they can actually go through the very fence, like the little mesh net in order to still sting you in the Midwest; this is horrible. And you look; you're like, "I can't see any of these things." And then something comes out, and you get bit. Well, does that mean that they weren't there? Well, I just walked us through a philosophical and theological exercise. But just because we can't see or we can't comprehend or we can't make sense of that reality, it doesn't mean that there isn't a reason for God to hold. And I would say, what is the biggest reason that God might choose to delay? And it actually has to do with some type of preservation and protection that is for you that you might not even be able to experience in the moment. But when you look back at it in 10, 15 or 20 years, you go, "Oh my gosh, that's exactly what I needed." I actually needed that exact time; I needed that space. And actually walking through it in this way protected me from A, B, C and D. And so sometimes it's hindsight that is the most helpful. And if you're like, "Joel, I just need help practically going through this." I would say right now start by looking back 10 or 15 years or looking back five years or looking back into your high school or college or young adult lives and say, "OK, what are things that you were suffering through?” But now you look back and you go, “I'm so grateful that God didn't step in quickly and ease me out of that because there's something for me to learn. There's something for me to grow and mature through." And so that's how I would unpack that. Shae Hill: Yeah, it's just hard to have that perspective in real time when you aren't able to glean from the wisdom of the aftermath yet; it's still very much in process. And I hope that some of the perspectives that you shared help our listeners. You've helped me process some of the right-now realities before we're able to look back even 10 or 15 years from right now and back into history and see how God really was meeting us in a way that we didn't see at the time. So thanks for answering that one. OK, last question. I feel like we may have saved the hardest for last maybe. What is the church's role in suffering? And then because we as the body are part of the church, what's our role in all of this? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, I think of Job's friends. I'm going to go back, and I'm going to quote Dr. Keller. One of the most hurtful, I would even potentially say harmful, things that we can experience in the midst of our suffering is what Keller calls “cold comfort” — a cold type of comfort. It's a comfort that is rigid. It's a comfort that is routine. It's a comfort that is, well ... just trust the Bible. Well just trust the God ... It's Christianese statements that we hear. And I would just say, what is the church's role in suffering? Let me start individually and then corporately. I think individually the church is made up of people. So the Greek word ecclesia in the New Testament that refers to the church ... it does not have a building in mind. It has a gathered assembly of beings, of people, in mind. And so the people are what make up the church. And so what is the people's response in suffering? I think some of the most powerful responses that you and I can have, Shae, is sitting in silence with those that are suffering. To share in mourning and grief, to share tears, to respond once we've been talked to. To pray in these moments, and ask God to give us the wisdom on what to say, when to say it and how to say it. And so there's a sensitivity in this. And if you've been through any type of immense grief, you know sometimes the most powerful moments is not the wise words that an uncle or an aunt or a friend said; it's actually just the weeping together. The shoulder-to-shoulder reality of that sorrow. So that's the first thing that I would say from an individual standpoint, but what is the church's role at large? God has placed us all in positions that have a particular purpose. And so when I think of Kiwi's story and I think of the opportunities that are present in front of us, I think there's a very tangible question that we need to be thinking of, which is, what is a possible and plausible role that you and I can have in order to serve our communities, in order to serve our neighbors, in order to serve those who are suffering? Our church does every year around school time ... we do a big old kind of donation thing for our teachers that don't have supplies really for kids. We do a food drive where we have good food, y'all. Not like the throwaway stuff in the back of your ... Good food for families that are going to go through Thanksgiving — we're going to hit Thanksgiving soon — and they're not going to have food, good food. And so we want to do things like that. So what is the church's role? I think it is recognizing the opportunities that are in front of us and then being willing and obedient to say yes to that thing that is just the next step. It doesn't have to be a great lofty step; it's just the very next step. In some ways, we're like, "Man, that's going to cost me something." And I'll be like, "Yeah, it is." Shae's looking at me. And she's probably like, Joel, you're going to have to downsize from a venti coffee to a grande coffee. But hey, that's two bucks, that's like — Shae Hill: You can take that up between you and God; I'm not going to mess with that. That was just — Joel Muddamalle: The Holy Spirit working. But in all honesty, there is a cost. There is a cost to it. And so if the cost is the barrier between our participation in being comfort for our brothers and sisters, then that's really a question of what's happening inside of our hearts. Shae Hill: Yeah, that's so good. I was texting with my sister actually this morning. We were talking about generosity, which is a weird thing to be talking about before 8 a.m. But we don't live in the same place. And so we kind of just talk about all the things whenever we can. And we were talking about generosity, and I was just reminded, and I said to her, "I don't think that generosity is something just for millionaires or billionaires. I think generosity is a heart posture." If you are giving $10 with a smile on your face and joy in your heart, I think Jesus absolutely blesses that. And I think He is thrilled about that. I don't think we have to wait in order till ... Because I think a lot of times when we're thinking about how to help and how to do these things, we're thinking about when I get to this place in the future, when I reach this place. And I think it really just comes back to the heart of what do you have right now that God's given you? Words of encouragement, money you can give. What about your time? What about someone who just needs you to linger with a few more minutes of intentionality to check on them? What do you have right now in your wheelhouse that can bless someone else in a place of suffering? And then what you're talking about too, Joel, just had me thinking about a situation that I'm in right now. I have a friend who's walking through the sadness of a breakup, and that's something that I've walked through before. It's been a couple of years though, and it's taken me back to just that heartache that is so real. But what you're reminding me of right now is I can help ease the feelings that suffering is bringing into her life by giving things that are in my wheelhouse. But I cannot fix the feelings of suffering that she is feeling. Joel Muddamalle: So good. Shae Hill: And I think that is where I know my role, and I know how I can love her well. And then I also know how to encourage her and her pursuit of walking with Jesus through this season. He's going to be able to love her better than I can, which doesn't let me off the hook completely as her community, but it helps me know my right place. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, you're a means of the expression of that love that God may use, but you might not be the means. You might just be a means. Shae Hill: You can be a solution, without having to be the solution. Joel Muddamalle: So good. Shae Hill: So friends, I hope listening to this right now is encouraging you even just as you're processing all of these things, honestly alongside us. But if you're wondering what your next steps are with a conversation like this, that could be difficult to hear. There's two things I want to tell you about. First, you can take action by sponsoring a child today. And one of the best ways that we can help ease the pain and the heartbreak of this broken world is by showing up for others in compassion. Compassion International helps us know with confidence that a monthly sponsorship that we are a part of is helping a child, both practically and spiritually. We can meet their tangible needs all in the name of Jesus. If you want to learn more and take the next step in sponsoring a child today, I want you to go to compassion.com/proverbs31 to do that today. And if you want to make it easier on yourself, just go visit the link in our show notes. And then lastly, if you want to dig deeper into the context of some of the questions that we processed through today, I want to let you know about a free resource from our team here at Proverbs 31 Ministries called “Consider This: Why Do Bad Things Happen to God's People?” Joel actually worked on this resource, so if you enjoyed today's conversation, and hearing how he processes things and how he answers, I know this resource will really, really bless you. You can also find that link in our show notes as well. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, and I think that resource is hopefully going to be very helpful for you guys because it takes the questions that we talked about and really gives it a more theological working with some Scripture references and just some helpful considerations to take as you process through this. Shae Hill: Yeah, that's so good. So I think that's all we have for you today, friends. I'm so grateful that you tuned into today's conversation. Therapy & Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31Ministries, where we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.