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Why More Data Doesn't Mean Better Business Decisions | Ruchira Jain | The Collaborative Canvas · The Collaborative Canvas Podcast

• speaker-0: The big difference in D to C is that the founder has lived with a problem typically themselves. speaker-1: Companies like Mama Earth or Pellegrim, have created inside functions there. So are they asking a research question? speaker-0: Once you've identified a really strong space, you can take it further to a certain stage. Product folks were doing a lot of insights work, business teams were doing a lot of insights work. And when we set up the central team, we were servicing all possible teams, whether it was product, whether it was a delivery. speaker-1: This measurement is only a criteria to determine what we need from the business. speaker-0: Monitoring is absolutely like if you're not doing beyond monitoring, then you're not leveraging the power of insighting. The real opportunity of leveraging any kind of consumer insights is to unlock consumer. speaker-1: Measurement not alone actually works. You you really need to humanize. What do you mean by humanized? speaker-0: Half the time consumer is making system and decisions. They don't really think about why I'm buying it. All good organizations and the entire role of Insights Function is absolutely being the eyes and ears of the organization. speaker-1: Why do good insights actually fail to influence leaders? speaker-0: At a CXO level, you want to say what is a decision I need to take. So if you're not able to translate that, then that gap will remain. speaker-1: So one piece of advice you would give every inside skater. We live in a world where businesses have access to more consumer data than ever before. Research reports, dashboards, customer feedbacks, now is the time that we are talking about AI. We can measure almost everything, anything and everything. But here's something I've been thinking about ever since we have done the first episode of our leaders' canvas as well. If we understand our consumers so well, why do so many businesses still struggle to make the right growth decisions? And perhaps the bigger question is, Why do some powerful consumer insights never make into that boardroom as well? Let alone the influence of decisions being made there itself. And my guest today believes that real value of an insight is not the insight itself, but the decision it enables. Richa Rajan brings over 25 years of experience in consumer strategy, market research and business insights. Her journey has taken her from research organizations, including Nielsen's and episodes to spreading 11 years at PepsiCo, working across iconic brands such as Pepsi, Lays, Tropicana, Kuru Kure and Nimbus. She later served as a vice president of consumer insights at Swiggy and ever since then I know her. And today she is also the founder of Elevator Insights, where she works with CXOs and leadership teams to turn human understanding into meaningful businesses, which is further into growth decisions. I also had a pleasure of having Ruchira as a panelist at the Leaders' Canvas in August. And one of the things that I loved during that discussion was her perspective on the importance of making insights matter beyond research presentations. So today, we're going to explore what it really takes for insights to influence decisions for the leadership, why CXO needs to get closer to the human truth, and how AI is changing the relationship between the data, the judgment. and the decision making. So, Richard, welcome to the Collaborative Canvas Podcast. speaker-0: Thank you so much, Ankesh. Pleasure to be here. speaker-1: So, Richard, I've been following you ever since you moved from Swiggy to building the insights as elevated insights altogether. And then we first met during the Leaders' Canvas before that. You've sat on almost every single boardroom of larger organization and then on the agency side. And you've seen both the words. How the journey has been through. And when we come to that conclusion of where insight actually sits, we really wanted to understand your journey first before we come to that point. speaker-0: Sure. Thank you so much. I think for me, you know, I think if I were to summarize, the focus of my career has been to identify what I say win-win opportunities. And what I mean by that is that I've realized that it's not possible to create a profitable, sustainable business without truly solving for a consumer pain point or need, having a great product, and also running a financially sound business. So as a consumer strategy or insights leader, it's not enough to just identify unmet needs and say, hey, this is an interesting space. It's equally important to see them to understand where a profitable business can be built. So I would say that that's really been my career emphasis pretty much throughout. speaker-1: because you actually mentioned that unmet demand, I'll quickly just for the first question that comes to my mind is I've been interviewing a lot of D2C founders and you've been already part of this quick commerce we get into this. When they identify a certain problem statement, know, this is a gap that really, really need to fill in, they do a very slight feedback system or we call them, they call it as insights that they've actually gone through, got it through the consumers. Now the point is, we have seen insights as a bigger function because it delivers what we really need to understand from the business that we are setting it up. But there's always a debate between research question and then there's always a debate between having an insight function. Can we, know, for the people who really wanted to understand these basic nemologies to understand kya hai ye. So let's start from there. speaker-0: I think I think the first thing is that insights don't only come from a insights function, right? And when you give the example of D2C, the big difference in D2C is that the founder has lived with the problem typically themselves. They have closely studied the problem and they have kind of spoken firsthand to consumers. And therefore they've done the insights work in that sense. Really, what is the insights work, right? I mean any data becomes insight when it You identify something about human nature or a gap, but I'm able to link it back to a solution or a product or service you can offer. Otherwise it's just information. So I think therefore to me it's not a question of whether they have an insights function or not, but the question is have they really like is there a real problem to be solved? And is it something and then the solution that you're thinking of, will that be relevant and meaningfully solve the problem that you've identified? Then comes sizing the problem and so on. So whether you do it through a formally called insights function, whether you do it yourself, the process remains the same. And we work as much with startups as much with large corporate companies. So in some cases, they may not have a formal insights function, but the process they've gone through. So and that's really the process that you have to understand is there a human problem or some kind of a you know pain point that or a friction which you can solve for. Then you have to say, how can you solve for it? And able identify either a product or a service, which meaningfully from a consumer perspective, not that I think I've solved it, but the prob person having the problem feels that that's the solution. And then, of course, in that solving the problem, there should be a possibility to create, as I said, a sustainable and a profitable business. Only then it's a real business problem to be solved. So I think when all the three are met, then that process is done. In large companies, they understand the importance. Equally, as in a D2C, of understanding the pain points. And they've structured large insise teams because it's the business has become large enough to need, you know, a very deep dive of issues, and there are multiple brands and multiple things which need to be researched. In a D2C at early stage, they may not feel the need for a full-time insig, but they pretty much are doing their function. Somebody or the other in the organization is doing that function. And typically when they come to us, they've come to A stage when they have grown to a certain level on their own, and now they feel they're not able to go to the next stage of growth. You know, maybe your cost of acquisition is really going up, or in some cases it's you've identified that there is a certain set which who loves you, but you're not able to broaden your target base beyond that. And you know, now you want to scale to you've got CD funding, you're not want go to C B and you want to expand. in other cases, sometimes bootstrapped. Startup ideas have come to us. And why? Because they understand that the process that's required, they are not capable of doing that. And they need to come to an expert to do that. It's like this: you can make a website, I can make a website, or but you can go to a real good designer and get it. There'll be a difference in the quality of what gets done. So it's a little bit like that. I think as long as you follow the process and it's been a thorough process, you'll get to the great results. And therefore, to me, it's not so much about the function itself as much as doing the right things at the right time. speaker-1: With the D2C brand, they believe in running the business first by whatever feedback they have actually got or whatever insights they have collected initially. They don't sustain that process for a longer period of time, even if they get seed funds. But there are other D2C brands who have actually grown up. I they are not larger organizations, but companies like Mama Earth or Pellegrim, they have created insight functions there. So are they asking a research question? or they really wanted to focus on building a re-insights business first to take a more profitable business. speaker-0: No, as I s I as I said, I think to really grow and you have to be continuously it's not a one time job to just talk to the consumer and identify. Absolutely once you've identified a really strong space, you can take it further to a certain stage. But it's ultimately a continuous process. You have to keep in touch with your consumer. So whether you have set up an insights team or not, as I'm saying, in certain cases, the person doing the job may be sitting in the product teams. In fact, in Swiggy, before I joined, there was just one insights person. Doesn't mean that Suigi was not insighting. Product folks were doing a lot of insights work, business teams are doing a lot of insights work. And when we set up the central team, we were servicing all possible teams, whether it's product, whether it was a delivery, or whether it was business teams, including the design team. So I think it doesn't matter where you're situated beyond a point. What is important is to make sure that you're asking the right questions out of insights if they have a formal team. And reverse that if you don't have a formal team, still somebody is doing the s job of keeping in touch with the consumer and how you're performing in terms of expectation of consumer. Once you succeed at one level, then you need to understand your next growth strategy, the next products to launch. You need to have a continuous feedback loop. As long as that's getting done, you'll be fine. speaker-1: So is measurement the only criteria to determine what we need from the business? speaker-0: In fact, I would say that that's one of the issues today sometimes that organizations face. Many times the focus is only on measurement. And while measurement is important to keep us you know honest on where we are in terms of performance, that's only I would say, you know, that's a basic part of of what insight is all about. The real opportunity of leveraging any kind of consumer insights is to unlock growth. And unlock growth means it could come from innovation opportunities, it could come from innovation in terms of process, packaging, it could come from identifying new cohorts to service. So that is the real role, right? And therefore, monitoring is absolutely like if you're not doing beyond monitoring, then you're not leveraging the power of inciting. speaker-1: And I remember then the same thing happened during the leaders canvas as well when you actually mentioned that know measurement not alone actually works you know really need to humanize what do you mean by humanized? speaker-0: See, consumers are not spreadsheets. You and I, when we make a decision, it comes out of context, it comes out of emotion, it comes out of perceived value at that point in time of what we need. So, research which looks at you beyond you as a consumer and is able to understand you as a human being, that's the research which really uncovers real motivations and drivers. And that is what we really need if you want to ever make any successful campaigns, any great products. If you just stay at a superficial level of why, okay, you bought this and why did you buy this, half the time the consumer is making system and decisions. They don't really think about why I'm buying it. Like you and I, we gravitate towards certain products, right? But there's an art and science to understand why I gravitated towards something. So I joined PepsiCo, I actually loved PepsiCo as a consumer myself. I I was in love with Pepsi as a brand. And this love is not something which I've really thought through and why it's happening. But at a deeper level, there was a connect with maybe the philosophy of the brand and so on. So I think that is what I mean by humanizing, that when you take a step back from just the consumption process and you understand what the priorities of that person is and where your category fits in their lives, that is where you unlock the real insights. And that's what I meant even that day. And that's why, in fact, that's the first. IP that we built when we built Elevat Insights. speaker-1: And should CXO should care about that? speaker-0: Absolutely. I think see, firstly, what does a CXO want to do? A CXO needs to take many strategic and difficult but important decisions. So they want to be confident about the decisions they want to take. I think most good CXOs understand that if you don't identify the real root of the problem, you can't come to any great solutions. So CXOs, all good CXOs really you know care about it. In fact, let me maybe share a little bit about our journey. I think our first client was Mr. Vikram Crover, who was president of the RTD consumer business for Tata Consumers. And I think the second relationship was with Pratik Pota, who's the CEO for Jubilant. And Dominus was looking to launch new categories like Popeyes, bringing Popeyes in India. They also had Hong's Kitchen and some of the other businesses. So we were asked to come in to help them grow these new businesses or devise a strategy for that. And in case of the RTT business for Tatars, it was just a new division. With a large growth ambition. So if I have to really drive you know, strategy for these brands or unlock these categories, it cannot be done without humanizing. So while we also started as a pure play consulting, we realized the need to build this IP. And maybe could give you some examples. So for brand Himalayan, right? Himalayan has been a bottle water, premium bottle water brand forever. when we were mandated to unlock growth for Himalayan. We had seen that it had done innovation in the past like flavored waters, which had not succeeded. So we went back to study the equity of the brand. As we studied the equity of the brand, we could see that the brand was all about bringing the best from nature to you. And the minute you were adding anything in, you were doing disservice to the brand. So when you looked at where else is best from nature untouched and raw-valued, you saw that that space was actually across categories. So after that, for example, it suddenly unlocked innovation opportunities for them. The brand has since then launched saffron, it's launched honey, it's launched food preserves. All categories where coming the best comes from nature, and the more raw and pure it is, the better it is. So I think to identify these kind of opportunities, you have to go back and be able to understand both human beings and the brands and their relationship. And that's where the growth opportunities come. They don't come from sitting in the office and looking at some bunch of data. Of course, if you've already done the work, we can mine a lot of that data and new research may not be required. But at some point in time, you should have done the work to understand what your brand means to consumers. What is their what they value about your brand? What does what are things that the consumer is buying? For example, if I get kids go on the Himalayan thing. A Himalayan consumer is this affluent India one consumer. They are looking to get away from the noise and the materialistic race they're part of. And Himalayas, the concept of Himalayas, simply helps them, you know, connect to that self side of themselves. So I think simple once you understand it and failure obvious. But that's what good insights are all about, that failure obvious in hindsight. speaker-1: In fact, the names that you just mentioned, are like fairly larger companies and people who are kind of building that consumer centric organization, it's a lot of work to undergo to build that kind of a consumer centric organization. Himalaya is a great example. What else a CXO should think about if you again, I'm not comparing D2C with the larger organizations. Larger organizations do have money to do that. D2C always, you know, first wanted to stabilize themselves, get something growth as working and then become mamas of the word. It may take some speaker-0: Yeah, but I would just say that all the great D2C organizations that you have started to pick up, brands that you're loving, they are very consumer centric. take example of Whole Truth Foods, Kyano Veda, so many D2C brands. They've identified a sharp pain point and the servicing that need. Now coming to building a consumer centric organization, I think the first is to leverage. The number one thing I'll say is leverage consumer inciting or that art to solve for the strategic problems that you're facing. The big bets. Often, actually, in especially in the bigger organizations, it is possible that the insise team is solving what I call L2 problems. I think I spoke about it even earlier. It's a very swiggy way of speaking L1 and L2 problems. So L2 problems are the next stage. L1 is where I want to invest, what are the spaces that I want to be entering? what should be my strategy in terms of targeting and positioning? L2 problems are more around. Where should I spend my media money? Should I spend 100 crores? Should I spend 200 crores? So you I think the first is spend first making sure that your 11 answers are very solid based on solid understanding of the consumer. And therefore that strategy, once that's right, I'll give you a long growth path. Second, I would say is build a listening in culture. It's a very culture thing, and and it's not a team thing. There are teams which are always listening into what the trends are, what's happening else in the environment. Not just what we are doing, what others are doing. So if you built a listening in culture, again you'll stay grounded. And I think the third thing I would say is don't do research just to tick a box. Often research is done to say, hey, I did the concept test. Instead, do research when you really want to learn something. For example, you have a concept and you really want to say, What do I strengthen here? What is weak here? That's when you do the concept test. Not because it was mandatory. So I think these three things if you do then you will build a consumer centric organization. I don't think it's about scale of the organization. speaker-1: Prachara, mean the point that you made about listening and building a culture and know, understanding what trends are coming in, there's a separate team that a larger organization does. But considering, you know, going back to that again same insights function, should we have it or not, this can become a relevant part of it. speaker-0: Absolutely. So all good organizations and the entire role of Insights Function is absolutely being the can the eyes and ears of the organization, right? So HUL used to have the consumer passport program, and as much as the leadership will do the market visit is as much was required for Dyantyo to consumer home immersions. So listening in is can be built as like almost like a cultural process versus leaving it to it will happen on its own. It's also about walking the talk. So in D2C, I think it happens because the founder is so close. themselves they'll sing in, they do certain calls, they go and try and talk to the customers in detail. So as long as you are in touch with your consumer and not just I think the only challenge that happens sometimes in D2Cs I've seen is initially when you started with a problem, you really knew your consumer. And if I take the example of Swiggy also, the founders really knew who their co-target audience is. But as the business expands, Your target audience is expanding in many cohorts which are coming in. You may not understand the needs of those cohorts equally well. And you need to be able to obviously be able to listen in to all your you know customer segments. So I think that's the other thing I would say. And building a function absolutely builds a certain there's a function or a team who's responsible for those. It's not left you know, that it'll happen on its own. And that's why as you grow teams end up building that with your consumer business. And you don't have somebody whose job is to just stay true to the consumer, then you're likely at risk. speaker-1: But again, I'll ask the controversial part of it that considering that we really wanted to build an insight function, we really wanted to understand how organizations should work around insights, what could be a consumer-centric organization should look like. You have all those things, and now the advent of AI. Those trends, I give you a very classic example. I do it myself, and then I've seen others also. They really wanted to find out relevant news which are happening on every single day. by just dropping a prompt into it and every morning you know get that news. So, similar trends can also be identified through that. Do you still need an inside function for that? speaker-0: I think the biggest advantage or what insights functionally brings to the table is not the research or the information. It's the unique vantage point of having looked at tons of what worked and what didn't work. So that's what I would tell to any insights leader and to those people that information is cheap these days. But taking a clear decision or having a a judgment on what to do, what not to do, that is hard to get. And that's where most people struggle. So I I don't think any longer with AI getting information is tough. But where is that information robust enough to act on it? Where is that information good enough to get into ideation? Where is that information good enough to create a strategy? I think that is where it starts to come down to. Absolutely right that you know AI has made data fast and cheap. But the faster and more data you have, the more the role of seeing through and saying what I need to do. Because now it's never a question of, okay, just get me information. Information has become very, very easy to have. It's really about what to do with that information. And that's where insights leaders also are really valuable because that's the translation they've been doing for you. speaker-1: Again, another controversial question. Insights is valuable. We get that insight. We get that data which is cheap from AI. But at the end of the day, the more prompt you do for an AI, you'll get the result exactly what you want as an insights function because we really have to, it's more like those salads which are like designer salads in the Shadi way. You can see that, you know, how a Kheera has been made or something else. So I'm looking at from that perspective that, you know, even if people can become more AI professionals and can build that kind of a prompt that know that inside function can go lost. Do you still think that you know? speaker-0: So there's absolutely already work and insights agents and that future is not far away. and that is something which will come. But again, as I said, I think the real first hand experience of building things, that is not going to be something that you know AI can help you with. And that is why. So if I have lived with a brand and seen what has worked, what's not really worked, and why I've kind of gone through the journey of understanding that, then that's something you know which will not come that easy. Just on AI and today at least we still a little bit away from the decision agents or the incise agents. And they will come over a period of time and they'll help you also save. Today, I think, just in terms of the prompting itself, we've all seen that with AI, you can lead it in any direction. Also, see, AI is based on what is the data available today. For markets like India, I think there's very little depth of data which is available. I mean, it's only India one which is represented online. Second, it will build on what somebody has already done. AI will always build on something that somebody's already done. How will you create something new? The entire point of creating solutions is to bring something new to the world. It could be in terms of a brand proposition, it could be in terms of a product solution, it could be a technology unlock, but it has to be an unlock. To build something new, their creativity and imagination is as much required. So both the perspective of knowing what has worked or not worked. And the creating imagination of saying, where can we go with this? I think those are things where you would see that today at least AI is not able to do. Chances are, with the way the things are moving, that it will catch up, but it'll catch up in all areas. You can say the same thing for marketing, you can say say the same thing for business roles. Why would you need finance folks? Why would you need doctors? So I think that argument is hard to today say beyond a point where it'll take us. But definitely, at least today. I see that the brand teams can also run the same prompts that I can run. The value that comes in saying is how to look at a problem. So we've also built some proprietary tools which are human and AI based. Where does the knowledge or the leverage come from? It comes from knowing exactly what to ask for what kind of problem. And that's where the value add is. It's not in running the prompt. speaker-1: Is there an example to it? speaker-0: Absolutely, I think so. Just before our chat, we're talking about decision archetypes. Now, synthetic data is all there, and synthetic consumers everybody is talking about. But I think our IP became much earlier in the world of non-AI era, where you said, how do you come to a consumer decision archetype which is deeply tied to the motivations and barriers and is humanizing, but is also helping you understand what drivers Of the category matter to that human being. And it connects the human to the business decision at hand. Now that is where the skill is. And if you're able to understand that, then AI can help you code it, simulate it, and very fast, do the process very fast and in a much more efficient manner. So AI is bringing speed and efficiency. It's not leading the thinking in our case, it is supporting the thinking. speaker-1: We talked about the overall impact so far, but fact, we also talked about the CXOs and how we can create a consumer centric organization. The bigger question is why do good insights actually fail to influence leaders? speaker-0: Firstly, I think, what is good insights, right? It's not really good insights which you fail. I think sometimes insights fail. And my number one thing would be to go backward from the decision to be made rather than methodology forward. Sometimes we are very anchored in research and methodology. And where we need to be focused on is what's the decision to be made. So for example, when we take on any project throughout my career, I think the first thing I've asked is, what will you do? With this, you know what decisions you want to take after this research. Once you have that kind of mindset, the way you will whatever you do, whatever information you collect, whatever process you follow will be a little different. In fact, in PepsiCo, we put up a process called Action Taken Report, in which the brand and the insights team actually had to fill in what actions they took post the research. And that was to instill this culture of decision backward thinking. let me give you an example. So if we take an example. Many times we get a brief saying do a category deep dive or do a category UNA. Now, recently I think we got a brief to do a category UNA and it was for fuel aditives as a category and the client wanted us to understand the category fully. Now, if you go back to what what he typically says, ask the questions behind the questions. So if somebody is wanting to do a category UNA, why? What what would you do with it? And once we had a conversation, we know they wanted to la launch into that category. So the outcome required is a launch strategy, not just a category deep dive. Now, once you know that, you know that in the category deep dive, you also need to understand the current assets the company already has, their existing brand, their existing channel, and how they could leverage it when they come up with a new category that they want to launch. Also, you need very specific information on the pricing and packaging. Otherwise, you can't really build a launch strategy. So this is one use case, right? Sometime back, another brief was on category UNA. This time it was from a restaurant brand. Now, this restaurant brand was already one of the largest brands in the category. Now, once you understand that, you know, then need to be able to understand what new occasions they can target, what new cohorts they can target, what new products they could bring out as a way to grow. So, same brief of category understanding, but very different use cases. And therefore, very different ways of where you would pay attention and how you would structure the study itself. And that's why I say, you know, ask the question behind the question. Automatically, when you do that, insights influence the decisions. So we gave a launch strategy, we didn't give a category UA. We gave a growth strategy, we didn't give a category UNA to the restaurant business. So once you understand why you need to do a certain research, you will always typically come back with better research. which influences and which influences at the right level of stakeholders. speaker-1: And which is why you build a belief backwards from the decision. speaker-0: Absolutely. You start, I mean, forget the brief. Let me give you another example. Sometimes I feel the most important decisions did not come from any great methodology or fancy dicks or fancy research. So when I moved to Lead Insights for the PepsiCo foods business from the beverage business, brand Kurkura was facing a major share loss. So I think the first thing was to really understand the source of loss. So we did a very unclamorous sitting through the Nielsen retail audit data and we looked at it in depth. In fact, it required a full cleanup exercise. What came out of it was that actually Kurkure was not losing share to other Kurkure like products. PepsiCo called that category collet. It wasn't losing share in the collet category at all. It was actually losing to a whole range of these new type of products which PepsiCo had not looked at closely. And that gave birth to a f totally new subcategory for Kulkure, and we launched Kudkurepuffed as a result of it. So again, I mean there was no fancy methodology, there was no fancy research. In fact, there was no re new research. It was existing data mined to come back. So once your decision backward, then whether there's a brief, whether there's a need for research, all of those are second level questions. What is the decision to be taken? What is the information I have access to? What kind of information in another case, let me give you another example. a large alcohol brand, a market leader, they lost leadership after COVID, after a few years, they lost leadership. So they wanted us to kind of understand where the losing. They obviously had access to scorecards on retail, on equity already. And they were not able to pinpoint the loss. So of course we looked at all their you know data. We also did a large quant and call study for them to understand. But the real insights in terms of how to solve for it. So in nutshell, what we understood it was a beer brand. And in nutshell, what we understood is that the definition of masculinity has changed. And their brand sat with some of the symbols which were more the older version of what's cool in terms of masculinity. So the solutions came by looking at their packaging, the looking at the semiotics or the softer language of their brand, the colors they have, and so on. And the solution also came from there. So we could not only just tell them why they've lost share, which was obviously a much deeper human-level driver, not just a marketing or a retail distribution level driver. And we could also help them on how to gain back leadership without losing who the brand is, right? Because each brand has a certain aura and a certain style. You can't suddenly change a style because that style has become uncool. But you can do small shifts. So there were things that they could do. I can't say too much here, but there were things they could do in terms of how they shifted some things in the packaging, how they use some of the colours, what activation platforms they use, how a certain their brand name could be used in a very different way in the communication. So very subtle changes that somebody from the outside might not even notice. Those are the changes which are required to be done. And that is the kind of you know, so I think that's why I'm saying that. The answers may not come from one fixed point. And that is really the role of insights. We have to be looking at very hard shea data at one side, equally very soft symbols in terms of culture and and what's shaping culture. speaker-1: So, Richard, what does this mean because I remember we spoke about this. During the conversation, you also mentioned what will you do differently on Monday because of this. What does that statement mean? speaker-0: Is how would you how would this change your decisions, right? So if you if the research will not change anything for you, then you will not do that research. So I think it's again going back to the point of accountability and thinking through the business decisions you want to take. Because sometimes in organizations where there is a existing insights department and a culture of research, you can instead of thinking through and making decisions yourself, you can just say less to research. And courageous independent thinking, that's not what research can give you. A consumer can tell you what they like, what they don't dislike. They cannot tell you what you need to do on your brand. And that's where I differentiate between a insights partner and researcher. speaker-1: Exactly. Consumer can only tell you what they want. speaker-0: Absolutely. How you should pivot your brand or what you need to do to kind of answer to consumer needs, that's where the strategy is. speaker-1: But consumer never tells you that you know like this color and or do they? speaker-0: Course, see again as I said, because speaker-1: You mentioned about the speaker-0: direct, absolutely. So the consumer will not directly. So in this case, for example, packaging. Packaging was liked for the brand. Brand added consistent packaging. It's in the context of the other brands' packaging was liked more. And why? There were certain colours to it which subconsciously were leading to a certain definition of masculinity. There were goldens and black versus a white and green, which was leaving a more calm, placid view. So the consumer we can only tell you, I like this. Why they like this, what is laddering up to? That level of depth is what you need to get to as an insights person and as a marketer. So I think you are half marketer, you're half business leader, and you understand as much the business side and the business levers as much as you understand research. If you don't understand the business or the marketing side of it, you'll never be able to deliver to those needs. speaker-1: I think that's a very good advice in fact. But again, I wanted to keep the advice section at the end of this podcast. But considering a lot of CXOs still struggle because they find the insights which are coming up to them are not appropriate. So, and you clearly mentioned there's no good insight, there's no bad insight. But then why they don't believe on to that? speaker-0: See, firstly, for CXOs, you don't it's not enough to tell them what a consumer thinks. You should be able to tell them what they need to do with it. at a CXO level, you're wanting to say what is the decisions I need to take. So if you're not able to translate that, then that gap will remain. Again, I'll give you an example. we were recently working with the CEO of of a firm, which largest category for them. They had not been able to grow penetration beyond CSA. And the job was to unlock penetration. So when we understood the consumer barriers, we also understood that the solution required almost like a business model change. And that is a conversation to have with the CXO. Not just to tell them that hey, consumers are not wanting to buy your product, right? Typically, people stop at they are not liking this or this is not helping them move. You stop there. If you stop there, you're not providing any solution to the CXO. He finally needs to unlock penetration. So if you can tell them what will unlock penetration, they're more All CXOs will want to have that conversation. And in fact, because a CXO was involved in this conversation, we could get to impact fast because it required a business, it required reworking the pricing model completely. And that decision, you know, somebody lowered down could not have taken. So the right business problems being solved at the right levels, that's what's required. So when CXOs actually work directly on some of these strategic issues, then you can actually unlock whatever is in the path. Sometimes what's in the path is your business model itself. speaker-1: And which is why our insights function is relevant to any organization. speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: Without that, they cannot do anything, whether they outsource it or whether they keep it within. speaker-0: Yeah, as I said, whether and and we end up working as external insights partner for many other organizations. So it doesn't matter where it is situated and whether you have a team or whether other teams are doing that work, as long as the CXOs are you know directly listening into some of the strategic issues, right? For important issues, they are directly connected with those teams. So some of the good organizations, I would say one of the things they've done when they have an insights team is that they keep Insights like in PepsiCo, for example. Insights had the same business KPIs that all the other category leaders had and reported directly to the CXOs. why? And this helps? It helps because then you can the kind of issues that you will focus your energies on and resolving that as required, whether from a business model unlock or from a new launch unlock, that can be done. Otherwise, you will end up doing focusing mostly on the L2 problems, which is Okay, can I spend more money? Is this creative a little better? And if it's situated within the marketing, if it's situated within the product team in terms of improving the product design, improving the product. But if it's situated in terms of centrally to core decisions, then it'll look at what are the big things I can do as a company? What are the other opportunities to grow? And and therefore you'll get more value out of it. speaker-1: And since you've been running Arubit Insights for almost like six years now and you've been running it very successfully, what are basic issues you have actually spoken about with the CXOs or you've actually found that there are the major challenges that we really need to fix? speaker-0: Yeah. So I think I would you know, one of the reasons we built human is exactly that, because identifying the root cause of the problem is the first part of helping NECXO. And in our journey we found that humanizing itself was a challenge. Much of the data is superficial. Either it's monitoring data, which tells you which gives you equity scorecard or a share scorecard, or it's data which is lead you know, maybe A concept which was evaluated. Very often, what they're missing is what's holding back some of the real issues. For example, I gave you the example of penetration. What's really holding back penetration of my product? How can I drive growth? Those answers are not there because that kind of work is not being led. So I think typically I think that is the first part. That what is the root cause and identifying the real human problems which they which will be helpful in their case? The second is translating that to real strategic outcomes, right? And that's what I mentioned in terms of not leaving it at a this is what a consumer thinks, but translating that into this is these are some of the ways we could solve it, whether it's coming from an innovation lens, whether it's coming from changing, for example, Himalayan. I mean, there was no mandate, nobody had said you know you have to only look at innovation within the category. But for so long, the brand was only looking at innovation within the category. The fact that for them they needed to move out of the category, that was the only way for them to unlock growth, is something that somebody has to take up. Once it was taken up through the CXOs, they were very happy to unlock the brand. In some other cases, that may not be the case, right? You still may need to only look at what can be done in the category. And again, so these are the conversations which become the next conversations. And from there comes how do I how am I driving growth? Am I driving growth through A, B, C, what my constraints are? That's also equally important to understand the constraints of the business. If my business is built on a 10 rupee pack, I cannot come back and say build a premium brand. If my business is built on a premium brand and solves for a certain go-to-market, I can't say sell on in a totally go-to-market. So I think translating the human problem to the business levers and understanding the business levers at play that you can leverage. That's the value. speaker-1: So looking ahead, do you look like as in, do you see there should be a relationship change between how things are being working or inside professionals should look at in a different way versus business leaders should influence? speaker-0: I think the one thing I say again and again is that go decision backward, not methodology forward. That's the one thing I see. Second thing I would say is build your own POV, as I said. Especially in-size teams, they are sitting at a unique vantage point where they are looking at what's working well, what's not working well, what are the shifts which are happening, what's the trend you're happening. Again, data can be coming from AI, data can be coming from Your retail channels, it could be coming from informal conversations in the organization. But you you kind of constantly processing all that. And that's the vantage point, which is very unique that you have. Also, you while you're really vested into the brand, you're still not only always thinking about the brand. As a brand leader, I have to think from that perspective, I have to protect my current business. But as an insights leader, you can think about what else to do. I'll give you one quick example here of a challenge that PepsiCo had. PepsiCo's you know, one of the biggest motes was the glass bottle. And we could see as insights that a certain audience has moved away from glass bottles. This is like 10 years back, I'm talking about 10, 15 years back. and at that point in time, PET used to be just a share bottle at 650 ml. there was no single serve PET bottle at that point in time. So, but we could see as insights that something which will come and hit. Now, the challenge and the discussion at that point in time with the CXOs is do you yourself, you know, take the decision and go ahead and launch something which will come, or do you wait for somebody else to? So I think those are the kind of conversations to have, and that's the kind of dilemmas to work with your business teams for you to have impact. And the more you may not finally have a point of view and finally having a you know, view based on your is really important. Finally it may be taken or not taken at that point in time because of all the others. But you should have a view and your view should come from a consumer lens on what will the changes or shifts which are l likely going to come. speaker-1: I think the beautiful part is that whatever consumer speaks about, how do you translate is something that we have already been doing. We know exactly how to translate it. But how does it make really sense for a CXO to take a decision and get influenced is the bigger picture. speaker-0: Absolutely. So if you're able to link the different things happening to a clear business choice and what it how what the impact for the business will be, then it becomes easier for the CXO, right? Because you lay the land for him with the choices he has to make. speaker-1: Yeah, wonderful. And that brings us to the actually final seven, eight questions that I really wanted to rapid fire you. So just to see, know, what comes out of it. So one piece of advice you would give every insights leader. speaker-0: I think I'll repeat what I said. Go decision backward and not methodology forward. Believe in your own point of view. speaker-1: haven't solidly agree with this because I think if you go decision backward and not methodology forward, you're actually, for me, I mean I'm taking you back to the AI era, you would probably be in a much better position to challenge AI in the coming days because that way you would solve the real problem and that's where you apply your brains rather than focusing only on getting answers from speaker-0: See AI is process, right? As I said, It is a process. It's it's part of the process. And in fact it's great that the process is becoming more efficient and but if you get lost in the process versus coming to what the solution. And that's why the AI I think it's I would again say the judgment at this point in time with AI, having the judgment where to use it, how to use it and where not to use it. I think that becomes critical at this point in time. speaker-1: And one thing every CXO should understand consumer better. speaker-0: I think every CXO should you know prioritize should leverage consumer understanding for their strategic bets. All CXOs are leveraging consumer insights in some way or the other, but are you really leveraging it for your elven priorities? Your the big things which are really mattering for you as an organization, where to invest, what is the next phase of growth, which brands or categories to support more or less. These are the decisions. You know, Archkill, the biggest other thing is. Where do I get in organic innovation in and where do I organically, grow the portfolio? What's faster, what's cheaper, what's going to be more easier for me? These are the decisions where you know, a consumer inside lens really helps. speaker-1: From a boardroom perspective, what is that one consumer question every board should be asking? speaker-0: I think they should be asking what is that uncomfortable thing that consumers are telling us that we don't want to hear. Because typically you want to hear the good news that the company is doing well, where you know we are we had a great run for the last year and it's all looking good. But for every business, there are some early warning signals and there are signs that you can pick up. And if you ask these questions, then you are prepared for some of these eventualities versus. Suddenly seeing a new competition spring up which you didn't really think about. So always ask what is the consumer telling us that we don't want to hear? speaker-1: And in that case, does data or intuition, which is more dangerous to ignore? speaker-0: I would say between data and intuition, intuition is more important. That may be a controversial answer as an insights person. but i as I said, data is incomplete without the knowledge around the data. On and many times business leaders carry s far more knowledge, which is intuition is built on knowledge and experience. And so I would say in it's it's wrong to ignore intuition. If the data looks Many times the data looks incorrect to us, right? There's something about the data which doesn't fit in. And that's where the power of a good insights or a good business leader is. They've lived long enough in the journey to know that where the data is guiding them in the wrong direction, where there's some missing piece there. So go with your intuition. speaker-1: So now it is not a controversial answer. One consumer truth that surprises you during your career. speaker-0: Oops, I think I think many things, right? Because you'd you look for the obvious and sometimes the answers are really like that obvious. I'm just thinking of example now, nothing coming speaker-1: I think the one which you mentioned about the glass to pet was one... speaker-0: that was not really non obvious. you could see the trends, right? You could see there was a certain cohort which always felt it uncool to stand and drink from a glass bottle. So you that was like the individualistic trend in many ways at a larger level where you want to have your own pack, right? So that was not such a but there are many times when we go in deep and we expect something. So let me speaker-1: I think Himalayan is also a great example. speaker-0: give you one example where I think that's more also an example of many times what consumers say, what what they really mean. And that happens many times and because of which I think a lot of people think their research is not useful because they only listen to what the consumers say. But you have to really listen into and when I said listening skills is beyond what somebody's saying. So I'll give you an example. So we were doing research for for an e-commerce company for Bharat. And it was around grocery, and therefore the consumer was constantly talking about quality. Intuitively, that does not make sense that India to Bharat consumer is looking for quality. when we all know that this is a very price-sensitive consumer. As we really listened in to what they were saying, they had a very tight budget to manage. In that tight budget, the amount of money they could use to buy on grocery was that much, and therefore they ended up buying cheaper products. They would buy affordable products. Cheaper is a wrong word, they would buy affordable products. Now, when you're buying affordable products, quality is often suspect. And therefore, the consumer was constantly talking about what matters to me is the quality. Because they were talking about quality within my budget. So they will not say quality within my budget, right? That understanding has to come in when listening into the answer, where they're saying quality is what matters. And that comes in when listening to them as a human being. Where you understand what their budget is, you understand their life priorities and where Ghostry fits into their life. So I think understanding and listening in, that is where if you just listen in they'll say, but they're choosing price. Yeah. speaker-1: This is a beautiful example. speaker-0: So it's really about really listening in to what they're really saying, not just the words. speaker-1: and complete the sentence, insights deserve a seat at the table when... speaker-0: Always. speaker-1: One thing AI will fully replace in consumer understanding, will never fully replace in consumer understanding. speaker-0: Humanizing. Humanizing. It cannot fully and that's why I mean counterintuitive. A lot of people ask me this. Why did you build human as the first IP? Obviously we have many other IPs over the last four or five years. But humanizing, just understanding, just going and spending some time with a person and getting to know the person, that I think will become even so more important in the world of data and technology. speaker-1: I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure. Thank you so much, Richard, for making time out for this beautiful conversation because there's a lot to take from the concept in itself. We move from different verticals to understanding how consumer-centric organization should work. And then eventually understanding whether an insight function is relevant or not even, and the difference between how something can be influenced. So I think there's an important distinction we just explored. Business don't necessarily. grow because they have more data. They grow when they understand people better and have the courage to act on that understanding. And that brings me to something I find particularly interesting in over the years that I've been speaking with so many people. When we have spoken about making organizations more data-driven, but perhaps the next evolution is about making them more human-driven is what the overall synopsis is, or probably we summarize in that way. This is where consumer understanding isn't confined in a research department, but becomes the part of that leadership thinks. How they think it, how they innovate it, how they make better decisions. And when they use AI and how this whole AI era that continues to make information faster and more accessible, human judgment, empathy, and the ability to ask the right question becomes way more than valuable and important. Thank you again, Ruchira, for sharing this insight because again, you know, We juggle around so many things and her experience and her perspective on elevating these insights are, it's like remarkable. And everyone who's watching and listening, I'd like to have you leave with one thought. The next time you are presented with a research report, don't just ask what does the data tell us. Ask what are we going to do differently because of it. And because ultimately insights should not just. the information or the conversation that we did, they should influence decisions. And that's what we talk about. So if you enjoyed this episode, do like and share and subscribe to the Collaborative Canvas podcast. Until next time, keep learning, keep questioning, and keep collaborating. I'm Ankesh Raksena, and this is Collaborative Canvas podcast. speaker-0: Thank you so much.