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How Embracing the Messy Middle Can Transform Your Life with Andrew Horsfield · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Andrew Horsfield, Welcome to the podcast.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Thanks Paul. Great to be talking with you.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: It is going to be talking to you because particularly
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: because my ADMINI is shit and panis not a ride,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: we almost didn't get to talk, but I did manage
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: to work out riverside, which is great. No, I mean,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: tell us tell our listeners a little bit about your
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: background so as we can free them the conversation that
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: we're going to have.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I mean the background essentially teacher trained. So
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: that was my early early career, primary school teacher, went
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: into trying to play cricket professionally for a number of
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: years and found out that the more I practiced, the
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: better everyone else seemed to be getting. So I wasn't
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: going to make a career in professional cricket and came
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: back and moved into adult education formally training, you know,
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: having a skill and training people in a certain skill.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: Mediation was the thing I started in, and then obviously
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: moving into more organizational development and psychology where it wasn't
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: just training people a certain skill, that was trying to
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: use learning and development to solve particular business problems around
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: people in performance and particularly leaders having to deliver results
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: in a demanding context, which is where I've spent the
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: last eighteen years of my own business, helping people sort
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: of at that intersection of people and performance.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: And before we get into this and start talking about
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: your book as well, talk to me about the journey
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: the attempt at professional cricket. So how long did you
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: have a crack at it and what was it like
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: when you realized that you weren't going to make it?
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, look at it was about a four year process
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: and I was miles away. So I don't want listeners
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: to be under any false pretense like I was bordering
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: on austrain selection or anything. But I mean I traveled
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: essentially to the UK as a professional ticket, which a
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: lot of people do.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: They go across, they play.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: There professionally to hone their skill and then come back
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: and play in the Australian summers. So it was just
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: a four years essentially of chasing the English and Australian summers,
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: just trying to homer skills and get better at it.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: I played Premier cricket here with Damian Fleming and who
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: some people may know who opened the bowling for Australia.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: And so in ninety nine I went to be a
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: net bowler for the World Cup squad. So that essentially
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: meant that the batsman got a good workout because they're
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: facing someone decent, but the bowlers weren't getting tired having
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: to train all the time.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: So that was the job of a net bowler.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: So that's the closest I got, and that was only
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: because of a relationship with a mate that I had
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: played cricket with in Australia, not my own skills. And
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: I think, Paul, to answer your question, what was it
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: like in realizing that wasn't going to be the boyhood
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: dream fulfilled? I was sort of okay with it because
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: I'd given it a good crack. I sort of went.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: I dedicated some time to it. I did die an
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: exercise back then, and really tried to say, right, if
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: I'm going to give this a go, give it a
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: red hot go. And sometimes dreams just don't come true,
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: or one version of them doesn't.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: And I was okay because I felt like there.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: Wasn't any stone unturned that I thought I could have
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: done this, or if I only had to take it
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: a risk, or if I had have backed myself here
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: a bit more. Of course, now that i'm older, I
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: would do things differently, but at the time I thought
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: I was doing the best I could with what I had,
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: So I sort of left at a pretty peaceful state
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: and enjoy watching the guys perform really well now.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: And that's, you know, that is the difference between people
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: who give it a red hot goal and the people
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: who don't actually do it, and then they sit and
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: wander the rest of their lives and they talk about
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: their what ifs, and they talk about, you know, what
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: I could have been and all of that sort of stuff.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: I think it's much better just to throw it all
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: on the line, isn't it, and just put it all
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: out there, and if you don't get it, it's not
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: to be right.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's the worst kind of regret that you're
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: referring to, which is that end of life.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: I wish I had a been more braver. I wish
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: I had have.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Just walked across the room and that girl who I
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: had that crush on that I sort of let go,
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: or whatever it is that.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: We have that end of life.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: I wasn't bold enough, or I wasn't thinking big enough,
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: or I just didn't step as much as I should have.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: And I think that that is when we get to
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: a period of life, that is the regret we look
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: back on that that I think haunts.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Us the most.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: And yeah, it's those regrets of sorry, going no no.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, there is a there's a
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: pretty psychologist whose name miskips me. I don't believe his
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: name isscives me. I've read several of his books, but
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: I talked to my kids about it because he's done
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: a shitload of research on lucky people versus unlucky people,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: and he's shown that actually there's no difference. What he
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: has found is that lucky people in adverted commas, they
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: take risks right, and they actually they actually see the
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: opportunities and they go after the opportunities, whereas unlucky people
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: often have the same opportunities, but they go, oh that
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: will not walkout, or they have blockages, they have things
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: that are holding them back, and then you know, stuff
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: doesn't happen for them funnily enough. So and I think
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: we'll circle back to this because you talk about in
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: your book stuff that can get in a way. So
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: your book is called Better it's about escape, average, beat
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: burnout and own your life. And who wouldn't want to
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: do that? So, but you have this this concept that
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: I quite liked in the book called the messy middle.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: So what is the messy middle? And where did that
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: concept come from?
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: Look, the messy middle, from my definition, is just that
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: space between where we are and where we want to be.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Essentially, you know, it could.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: Be where we are where we want to be, who
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: we are and who we want to be, or even
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: the life we have and the one that we want.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: And so the mess in the sense is navigating that
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: space where we are to where we want to be.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: It is always messy. It's inherently messy. But it can
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: also be positive and negative. So it can be from
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: a place of things are not quite right, the relationships
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: a bit stale, the boss I'm working for I don't
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: get along with, or the.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Work I'm doing doesn't light me up anymore. So it
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: can be a negative to a positive.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: Or it can also be when we're stretching ourselves for
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: something worthwhile, Paul, which we talked about before that it
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: could be I've just changed career because I am stretching myself,
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: or I am testing my how fit can I be?
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: And so I'm training for the ultra marathon or the
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: half marathon, or even the couch to five k for
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: some people. But it can be that positive stretch as well.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: But whenever we're trying to move our life from a
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: lower plane to a higher one, we're going to have
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: that self doubt, the worry, the am I good, and
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: the voice saying that we're not the people who criticize
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: us because they're not doing it. You know, we might
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: speak up at a meeting and hold our team to account,
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: but no one likes that, and so we're potentially ostracized.
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: So we're always going to have this challenge and set
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: back and struggle.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: And so that's.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: Really the nature of the book, which is how do
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: we navigate this space because it's going to happen if
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: we're living a good life and a rich life, and
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: so the more we can navigate it, and the better
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: and more effective we can navigate it, I think the
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: better life can be.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: You reminded me actually as we were talking about that,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: for a bet of behavioral change psychology, you know this
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: from where I am to where I want to be,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: there's a heap of research that chows that if that
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: gap is really big, then it can actually stop people
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: from starting because they can't actually see the finish lane.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: And you know, so this this opens the idea of
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: having having goals of that are actually reasonable and achievable
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and plays into a whole heap of areas in your life,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: from health, behavior, change to happiness as well. Actually some
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: of the things that come out to Denmark has just
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: been called the happiness country, happiest country in the world,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: and it's not the first time. And it actually turns
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: out that their expectations of life are actually quite low, right,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: that what they're actually when they're younger and they're growing up,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: you know, their aspirations are to you know, get a
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: job and start a family, the sort of stuff that
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: we used to have fifty years ago. But now kids
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: are growing up and you know, they're only be millionaires
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: and YouTube stars and all this sort of stuff, and
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: such a small percentage of them actually make it. Now
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: that's a bit of an extreme, but how important is
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: it for people to really get an understanding of where
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: they are and then to see whether goals are realistic? Right?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: You know, we talk about the smart goals specific measurable, achievable, right,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: so unrealistic and time beious. So why is that important?
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've means such a gift of a question, Paul,
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: because there's so much in it. So maybe one way
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: of starting the conversation around that is what I hear
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: you saying.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Is part of it is about progress, so that we.
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: Sometimes think that small doesn't scale, so we want to
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: go from that, as you say that where we are
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: to where we want to be in one gigantic leap,
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: and we discount the small steps that get us there,
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: and the beauty of the small, taking the small step
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: and breaking things down into these goals that are achievable but.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Stretch us a little bit. Is one.
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: They're achievable so we can get to them, we don't
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: see them as completely overwhelming.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: And I think the other thing.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: Is that it's beautiful for motivation because if we just
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: rely on that getting the reward and continually smashing things
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: out of the park, our motivation is up and up
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: and down. So some days we feel like doing the
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: work and we do it, and other days we don't,
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: and so we get this fluctuation of this performance where
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: if we have these goals that are more about progress,
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: and are we making the step to the direction we
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: want our life to be and we're starting to recognize that.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Then motivation can go from that external reward I did
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: it or I didn't do it, to the intrinsic motivation
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: of I am doing it. And I think to your point,
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: we start to have this identity and James clear talks
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: about this in his book Atomic Habits, but we start
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: to form the identity of someone who gets stuff done.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: So I don't want people to mistake this for financial advice,
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: but I'm in a fortunate position now. I'm fifty four
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: years old. I'm financially free. And that started twenty years
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: ago when a financial adviser that I went to said, Andrew,
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: from now on, whenever you get an increase in salary,
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: and I was twenty five at the time, I want
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: you to save half of that money and spend half
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: of that money so you can go spend a little
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: bit more because you've got this increase in salary. You
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: want your life to have a bit more clothes in it,
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: or you want to have more experiences or go to
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: a better show in town. He said, put away money
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: half to save. Now that started Paul with like ten
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: bucks a month. It was nothing, but the habit of
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: going right now, I'm saving and I'm a saver and
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: not a spender. And you go from something small and
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: then of course you get another salary increase and the
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: ten dollars might go to fifty or one hundred. But
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: over thirty years, that's a bulk of money that a
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: lot of people walk past because I think, oh, I'm
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: not going to get financially free with ten bucks a week.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: It's not worth it.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: So, you know, the more we can make these goals
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: without attainable, as you rightly point out, and achievable for us,
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: and small enough that we can actually get them done,
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: we start to become the person who says, I am
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: someone who saves, or I am someone who's healthy, or
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: I am someone who.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Makes good food choices.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: And of course that starts to leak into other choices
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: in your life, because you're now a person who is
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: and identifies as healthy, smart, impactful. And it's incredible how
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: much we walk past those small moments I call them
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: definable moments in our life where we can either step
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: forward into the person we want to be or step
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: back and have that kind of regret were referenced earlier.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just as I was actually writing down a world.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: As you were talking there identity and as just as
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: I finish it, you talked about identity, and because I
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: want to dave a little bit into what you said
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: and this whole idea of where I am and where
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: I want to be and when it's too big, and
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: you know, the analogy that I'll use is that when
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I was doing flying training back in my helicopter navigation days,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: you know, we'd want to go from point A to
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: point B, but we would always have waypoints along the way,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: you know, you plug them into the GPS, or when
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: we were doing manual navigation, which they made us do,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: you had these waypoints which were checkpoints so that you
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: knew you were on the way because you always get
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: blown off route a little bit by changing in wind
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and those way points are really
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: important so that you know that you're on track. And
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: I'm a big one with this with people particularly, I
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: always say to them, if your goal is further than
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: six months away, you've got to break that down into
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: many goals or waypoints so that your brain actually knows
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: that you're on track, because you know that you see
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: that progress and you understand the process and that builds
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: self efficacy and as you said, starts to create that
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: identity that I am this person. And I think that's
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: really really important. But you talking in the first part
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: of your book.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Sorry before you do, Paul, Oh, sorry, before you do.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: The other thing I love about that that I'm thinking
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: about when you mentioned that is that sometimes sometimes if
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: that point is so far away, we don't know the
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: way points are good just to go well, let's get
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: started and take action, and then we can get to
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: that sort of first way point and we can then
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: navigate to go right.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: We know where we are. Now, let's set the next one.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: So I agree with you completely if you know the end,
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: it's really really important to have those points for progress.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: But sometimes people wait so much like I've got to
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: have this whole totality of worked out what I want
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: in life, and sometimes it's too hard because they're big
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: things we're trying to conquer. So if you don't, sometimes
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: just taking the action and getting to that first waypoint
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: opens up life to go right. We now know the navigate,
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: we now know the landscape we're in, We've got a
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: little bit of body of work, and that helps make
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: that next step or be able to get.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: A little bit more clearer.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: So I think it works for both of those types
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: of examples.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and the idea. You know, there's so many
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: people when we talk about that that where I am,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: where I want to be, in that gap that there's
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: a lot of people who are sitting waiting for the
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: motivation faerry. And you know, occasionally the motivation ferry will
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: come along one day and then the next day it's gone,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: just like a ferry. And you know, the whole thing
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: is that it's action that drives motivation. You're Brian, knowing
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: that you're in forwards motion towards your goal is what
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: actually releases delp with me. But I think we need
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: to take a little step back here because your first
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: bit is about character and who am I So so
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: give people a bit of a sense of stuff that
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: they can do. You know, you talk about clarity perspective
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: on LCK evolve. You know's where's the starting point here?
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: Well, I reckon the starting points clarity, and I think
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: that we where we will mistake clarity around what's the
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: what's the point of our life or the purpose of
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: our life is we look for these big legacy sort
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: of thing we look, you know, how's the hospital being
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: going to be named after me? Or what's the legacy
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: of my life? Or people talk about ikeer Guy, which
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: you know is a is a good strategy to find
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: out some sense of clarity about you know, what's your
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: purpose and what what makes your days matter rather than
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: just accumulate day after day. The I think one of
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: the things I try to encourage people to do because
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: something like an icker guy can take a lot of work,
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: and if you're not quite clear, it can sometimes make
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: things more cloudy, not clearer, because we're sort of saying, well,
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: what is my purpose and what.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Am I good at? So one of the things.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: I encourage people to do to help find that clarity
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: is I talk about transitioning with intention.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: So if you think.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: About a day when you wake up and you go
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: from your bed to go get breakfast, you're having a
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: transition point there from.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Sleep to activation your day starting.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: Or if you go from commuting at home for people
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: who may still commuting to work even if you don't,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: you're going.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Into your workspace.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: You're moving from a personal space to a professional space,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: or from home to work. From one meeting to another
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: is another transition. So in all these transition points in
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: our day, we have a chance to, I think, be
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: clear about three things.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: That give us clarity.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: The first is what role are you playing? So I
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: have a role as a parent, I've got a role
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: of a consultant.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I've got the role of a coach.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: I'm a community board member for the kinder at school.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: So what role am I actually playing in the environment
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: I'm going into. That's really important because my kids don't
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: want a consultant to come down and try and optimize
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: how they're living their life or doing their homework. They
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: want a dad, So how am I making that transition?
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: Second thing is what reputation am I wanting?
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: What do I want.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: People to say about who I am, how I operate,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: the impact I'm making?
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: So do I want to be known as.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Someone who's a problem solver, someone who sees opportunity or possibility,
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: or the person who's bitching and moaning about what's going
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: on or what can't be done. So that's the second
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: sort of question, what reputation do I want? And the
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: last one is about what is a result that I'm
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: trying to achieve and that doesn't have to necessarily be
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: a financial result or how many products we've sold. It
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: could be what do I want people to walk out
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: of this meeting feeling? Or how do I want to
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: connect people in this environment? Or what do I want
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: our family dinner to be when it ends. So those
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: three things, I think do a couple of really critical things. One,
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: it brings you present to the environment that you're in,
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: to the impact that you want to have, So rather
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: than be this legacy miles and miles or years and
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: years away, it can be into the moment you're right in,
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: and it helps to have a sense of coherence to
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: what you say you want to be and what you
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: actually are being in that moment. It helps to line
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: up that you know what you say what you do
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: gap that we can sometimes see in leaders and people,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: and it goes to that point of our identity, which
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: is part of what that first chapter is around character
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: is you can start to live with a really compelling
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: purpose because you're living life by design rather than by default.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: You're not just rushing from one meeting to another, or
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: answering email and rushing to something, or going from school
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: drop off to home and answering six phone calls in
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: the car, but not having time to just reset and
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: go let me just switch off the day and be
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: present to my husband and wife, the kids.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: So role, reputation, result.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: They're three things I asked people think about as I
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: transition from they die.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's pretty cool. And look, you mentioned the
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: wordicky guy, and it just reminded me of this conversation
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I had with Carl this morning, who my wife has
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: just just written a substack article about life's purpose, and
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: she was saying, I hope I get this right. But
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: in Japanese there's there's different words for for life's purpose.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: There's there's my big life, which is you know that
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: thing that we talked about, what's my legacy all of that,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: and that's the thing where people get you know, that
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: just goes in the too hard basket often. And then
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: there's my daily life and what is the purpose of
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: my daily life? Right? And that's that's about being engaged
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: in the moment. And and you know they have those
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: little iichy guys that bring them those little moments of joy.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: But it's it's that focusing on what I'm doing of
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: the moment. You know, it could be a mom getting
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: up in the morning, going my purpose today or this
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: morning is to prepare a healthy lunch for my kids
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: so that they have good nutrition, right, or are you're
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: going into meeting? My purpose today is to make sure
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: that everybody's aligned on this meeting. Right? Is that separating
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: out that big from the little and then being fully
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: engaged in the process, Like you just need to go
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: and watch a Japanese chef, right, And I love watching
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Japanese chef because they are so into and engaged in
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: what they're actually doing. And that's that whole Japanese culture
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: of what's my purpose right now and being fully engaged
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: with it. But I like the way that you link
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: that in around character. And you know, Marcus Aurelius famously,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: you know, the historic philosopher and Roman emperor, would wake
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: up in the morning and say what I use and
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: virtues do I want to express today? You know, who
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: do I want to be today? So it's it's very
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: aligned with Booth, the Japanese psychology and stoicism because it
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: freaking well Watson has done for a couple of thousand years. Right.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the metric I completely agree Paul,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: and I think the metric isn't did I win every
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: moment and was I perfect in every moment? It's just
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: as you say, it's that present to the mindfulness of saying, Okay,
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: you know, there's fifty moments in my day where I've
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: made some decisions more obviously, but and how was I
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: in those moments? And am I proud of the person
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: that I turned up for in those moments? I think
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: that's what's important as a metric of was I conscious
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: about this and did I do the best of my
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: ability in making the decisions I could in that moment,
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: as opposed to you know I did, did I smash
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: every moment out of the park and I nailed everything?
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: And the other thing that I was thinking about with
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: you just talking there around the parent is we often
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: see high performances, you know, the Grand Final, kicking the
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: last goal, or you know a leader who can just
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: get up and win a room. But recognizing those moments
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: as a parent where your kids wake up raddy and
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: you're able to calm them down, feed them well, get
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: them to school on time. You know you're a high
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: performing parent some morning when you can just get them
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: out the door without the breakfast on their cheeks and
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: they're dressed in the right uniform and they're at the
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: school gate on time.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: You're a high performer some mornings, you know.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: And you actually reminded me about a week ago there
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: was a mom with a little kid in the supermarket.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: The kid was having a tantrum and the mom dealt
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: with it beautifully, and I actually thought, I actually I
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: remember going through my mate. That is a fucking high
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: performance action rate. There the way that the mum dealt
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: with that so effectively. And I think this is the
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: you know that bringing that Japanese and the stoicism and
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: about being fully and it's aligned with you know, the
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: stuff that I do around heartiness, about being fully engaged
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: in life, about being fully engaged in any moment. And
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: I think with the stoics as well, is that when
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: you get a shit sandwich from the universe, is about
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: how you deal with it, right, It's not what happens
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: to you, it's how you react that matters. And I've
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: had a couple of shit sandwiches from the universalately and
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: and for me it's about that equanimity. Can I deal
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: with this really effectively? Because then you can lie down
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: at night in bed and go I fucking hell, I
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: did well today, you know, and there's there's not a
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: better feeling of actually waking up and going this is
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: this is how I want to be today, and then
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: lying in bed and reflecting and going, actually I kneeled
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: that today, even if it was a shiit some which
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: there is a lot of satisfaction in dealing with those
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: shit sandwiches. You know, it's all stokes play. You're given
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: real Well.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: Just on that tube, Yeah, go ahead, sorry, just on
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: that tupaul. I think it goes back to where we
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: started this schoor. You started this conversation, which is about
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: the lucky people. It's all about how we frame life,
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: isn't it. I mean some people see it as they're
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: the problem looking for a solution. Other people are the
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: solution there to solve a problem. And the thing I
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: want to encourage for people listening is that the courageous
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: work is very rarely like we see in the movies.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: The courageous work when we're doing this stuff like you're
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: talking about, of responding to difficulty and adversity, or stretching
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: ourselves for stuff that's worthwhile, it's never the one minute
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: montage with beautiful music that makes you want to jump
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: on a treadmill, or it's always hard, it's always difficult,
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: and so we get sold this furfy that you know,
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: if we're doing really great work, that we should be
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: feeling inspired and fantastic, and most of the time we
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: feel shit because it's we're doing the difficult work. We're
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: doing the stuff that makes difference or moves things forward.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: So when you're in that space, it's not always you know,
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: unicorns and rainbows and getting reward. It's often hard work, hustle,
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: grind that is positive if it's leading us and serving
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: the things that matter to our life. And that's sort
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: of the trick. Do the hard work that matters rather
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: than just the stuff that's going to fatigue you and
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: make you feel angry and frustrated.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and for me, fundamentally, this is a boat. You know,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: we talked about the Deans and happiness, which I don't
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: particularly like that word happiness, you know, I think subjective
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: well being is a much better description. But there is
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: a big difference between pleasure, which is positive emotions, and contentment. Right,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: you can have contentment and satisfaction with having dealt with
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: a really fucking hard day, whereas you're not going to
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: have pleasure in that right, and if we're constantly chasing
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: pleasure and thinking that life is all freaking roses and
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: you know, like it is on Instagram, I think it's
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: a recipe for disaster. Let's not talk about you. In
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: the next section. You talk about capability and identifying you know,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: what I'm capable of. You talk about activate, optimized energy,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: and support. So to just step our leaders through our sorry,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: our listeners through this a little bit.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I think capability is one of those things that
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: you know, we often have the capability we need at
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: This is certainly my premise that we have the capability
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: we need to do what we want to do, but
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: often it's dormant, you know, because of fear, because of struggle,
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: because of setback, or some story that we're telling ourselves
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: about what we can or can't do. And so yeah,
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: it's a great scene in the movie Walk the line
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: about Johnny Cash and you know, at the time he's
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: living in his car and he loves music. But he
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: gets his break to play in front of Sam Phillips,
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: you know, the big studio recorder. So he gets into
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: this studio and he starts to play, you know, some
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: gospel songs that's already been done before, and it's not him,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: it's it's what he thinks is going to be liked
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: and be sold and make records and what Sam wants
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: to hear, and you know, a minute into the audition,
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: Sam Phillips goes, is that all you got? Because I
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: can't sell that, you know, I can't sell music that
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: people can't believe in. And it sort of jolts Johnny
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: Cash out of this sort of let me just play
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: what I think this guy wants to hear and would
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: record to the actual music I really love, and he
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: plays falsome prison blues, you know, about killing someone, and
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: he goes that's the moment he becomes Johnny Cash because
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Sam Fuis goes.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: I can record that.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: So I think part of this section of the book
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: is about encouraging people to say, you've got this great
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: talent and capability, when are you using it? And when
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: are you're walking past it? Because there's this great person
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: that's sitting inside all of us that's capable. We just
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: have to be able to have the courage to let
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: them shine and be the version of ourselves that we
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: want to be. And that's part of what that sort
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: of chapter is about or series of practices is about.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: And you talked about stuff that's getting in the way.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: You know that you can be negative thoughts. It can
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: be you know, shit that you were told from when
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: you were a kid. It can be one incident from
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: when you were a kid that just holds your back.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: And that's the whole third section of the book. So
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: what are some of the typical things that get in
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: the way of people achieving their potential? And you know,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: how do we navigate those rule blocks?
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good question. It's a very deep
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: broad question.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: I think maybe to share one of my own experiences
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: about what you're referring to, which is sometimes it's the
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: we think we have a skill problem, where we really
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: have a story problem. So we think that we you know,
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: if we don't know how to do a difficult conversation,
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: we need to go and learn a program about difficult conversations.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: But it's our adversity to conflict that stops us stepping
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: into that moment, because you know, we had an angry household,
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: or we got told off once by a leader, or
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: we tried to give feedback and once upon a time
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: someone just reacted really poorly, and that is a story
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: we hold with us and holds us back. So you know,
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: sometimes when you get these long patterns of behavior that
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: or situations where you're getting stuck pretty regularly, sometimes it's
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: worth doing a little bit of an interrogation to some
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: of those stories that we're telling ourselves that's holding us back.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: So common ones I hear for people in organizations. You
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: know that the person above you owns you on the
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: all chart. You know, if you're paying the salary, you're
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: my boss. Then if you tell me what to do,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: I've got to do that because you're the boss, and
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: I do what you tell me. So that's a story
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: from somewhere about rather than having a collegiate, respectful relationship,
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: we've got this parent child sort of dynamic going on.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: And my own story, which I share in the book,
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: is my dad was a minister in the Uniting Church
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: and so we moved around a lot as a kid.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: I had seven different schools from sort of year zero
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: to year twelve. And when you're moving midway through the year,
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: the first thing you want to do is fit in,
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: because the laws of the school, or like the laws
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: of the jungle, you know, you need a tribe.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: You need a tribe to help you stay protected.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: Otherwise you're at the risk of being bullied or ostracized
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: or sitting on your own. So I learned how to
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: fit in. I learned how to be interesting enough for
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: people to go, hey, come join our group, but not
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: quite interesting enough where I upset the dynamic.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Of the you know, the tribe.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: And so that served me for twelve years of school.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: I went through school relatively, you know, incident free. But
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: then when I was in a corporate life and I'm
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: leading a team and that approval voice is now coming
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: in because there's a leader in the room and I'm
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: just doing what people what sounds good, what I think.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: The leader wants to hear. That that was a horrible
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: way to.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: Operate in that environment because they want a leader of
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: impact and someone with an opinion. So that story, for me,
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: was stopping me from progressing in my leadership, in my
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: impactors as a person I wanted to have on the
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: business and my team. And so I had to go back.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: And it was a wise coach who helped me surface
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: that story, explore.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: It a little bit.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: And while it always is still there in the background,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: haunting me, Paul, there comes occasionally when I'm in front
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: of a room and it's I think you're losing these people.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: I don't think you're good enough, you know, And I
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: know the story well enough now to be able to
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: talk back to it. And that's the benefit of doing
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: that interrogation. You start to make friends with this thing
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: that was once trying to protect me but just realizes
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: I don't need protecting anymore.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: I'm okay.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: It's it's very aligned with what me and Carly talk about.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Is your inner gremlin, right, is that that negative voice
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: in your head that holds you back. And it's not
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: that your your gremlin is trying deliberately to sabotage you,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: or it's this evil little thing in your head. It's
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: it's often it starts when we are a kid, right,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: if we're told that we're not good enough by parents
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: or teachers or friends or whatever. You know, we can
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: feel that we don't deserve stuff, that we're not worthy,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: and it can really get in the way. And sometimes
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: there's stuff, you know, it your graham then actually really
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: helped you when you were a kid because it kept
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: out of trouble. It kept you, you know, from being
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: embarrassed or it kept you from from from from danger sometimes,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: but often that that voice continues and what used to
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: serve you well as a kid is now really getting
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: in the way of you achieving your true potential. So
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I think I fully endorse that it's really worthwhile people
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: understanding that, and I think, especially if they've had adverse
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: childhood experiences, it is worthwhile going and talking to a
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: psychologist or a counciler. Actually, I probably prefer counselors because
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: as soon as you walk into a psychologist are looking
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: actually through the lens of what category of mental health
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: issues do you fit it? Not all? Yes, I think
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: counselors are are more, in my I view, a little
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: bit more action focused and a little bit more of
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: a of a sort of a coaching modality or finding
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: a coach right just to understand one of those roadblocks,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: where did they come from? Wherever they useful? And are
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: they not useful now? And what can I do about it? So, yeah,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: like I fully endorse that. I think it's I think
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: it's really really important. Now what so you've you've spent
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: the last twenty five years, you know, dealing with teachers,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: being in business, dialing in sport. What patterns have you
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: noticed over the last twenty five years when it comes
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: to performance? Is there anything that sticks out?
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: Look, I think one of the things that really sticks
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: out is curiosity, the ability for.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: People to be curious.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: And so there's this sense of I mean, and we're
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: talking about it now, aren't we around being able to
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: be curious enough to say, why is it that I
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: always step back in that moment? Or why is it
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: that I I just write when I'm being successful, I
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: tend to sabotage that and do something that just makes
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: me go backwards rather than keep moving forwards and step
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: intom a boldness or bigness. So I think part of
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: that curiosity is I don't think you can be successful
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: without self awareness. And so it's while you need to
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: have that curiosity that's bigger than your capability, that you've
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: got this faith that whatever situation I'm in, I've got
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: the skills to be able to deal with it, and
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: having a faith in that and a belief in that,
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: which takes a certain.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Level of skill.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: But it also helps when we reflect, because we can't
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: grow and develop without a sense of understanding the impact.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Of our actions. What worked what didn't.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: What we need to take forward with us, what we
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: need to just leave behind. So I think that the
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: curiosity and the reflection goes hand in hand around because
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: I think, as we've alluded to in the conversation Paul,
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: that we're also not good at seeing the strength in ourselves.
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: We're not good at being in that sense I I
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: did that really well, I stepped into that moment, or
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: I gave some really good, honest feedback that took some
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: courage and helped us move forward, or that person to
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: move forward, or the relationship to be closer. So for me,
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: I try and do three things at the end of
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: every day or ask three questions that fuel this curiosity
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: and reflection sort of practice, and that is to ask
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: myself what went well or what did I do well?
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: So I'm looking in that question to look for things
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: that I can recognize and take into the next moment.
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: What am I doing well in my life? What decisions
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: am I making? What impact am I making? How did
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: I live my life in a positive way? So I
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: want to recognize those. The second is what would I
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: change angel do differently? So that's the recalibration question, because
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to be perfect, and I'm not going
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: to get everything right.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: So where could I have been.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: A little bit more curious rather than tell people what
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: to do? Or where could I've been more patient rather
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: than more aggressive?
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Or where could I have just step back.
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: As the leader and let the team work this out
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: rather than take it on and give them the answer quickly.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: So we're looking for those moments to say where could
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: I just improve a little bit? And the third question
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: is so what am I going to do different tomorrow?
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: So you're saying, here them a strengths, let's recognize those
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: and bring those into the next day. Here's the things
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: that we could learn from the efforts that we put
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: in today and be better tomorrow. And then what am
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: I going.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: To do differently?
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: Allows us to have a bit of that intentionality about
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: the next day to just keep raising our awareness. So
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: three really easy questions to ask I sometime has asked
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: them during the day. Well, we get to ask him
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: after our interaction, So how do I get better at
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: doing you know this?
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: So it's a it doesn't have.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: To be just at the end of the day, but
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: it's a strategy that helps you stay curious and aware
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: of what works for you and what might be hindering
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: where you're trying to get to.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think it's it's cracking. And actually,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: if you could find yourself a tartis a time tartis
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: from doctor Who and go back two thousand years ago,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: you could probably actually do a little bit of coaching
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: with Marcus Aurelius, because, as I said earlier, we get
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: up in the morning and say what values and virtues
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: do I want to express today? And then at the
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: end of the evening, if I have this right from
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: memory for meditations, he would say what went well and
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: what needs work? What he didn't ask himself, if my
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: memory serves correctly, is what would I do differently tomorrow?
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: So that's the action bit, which I really like that
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: third question added to those other two. But I I
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: also want to broaden the lens a little bit about curiosity,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: because it's it is one of my key values or virtues,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: you know, equanimity, curiosity, gratitude, and usefulness, and and I
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: think curiosity can be applied in different directions. Curiosity you know,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: about yourself, Why did I behave like that when I
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: do that? Curiosity about others? Right? Why did that person
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: react like that, rather than just going out they're a
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: freaking dickhead. It's actually, you know, it is you know,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: first to be understood and for seek to understand. Yeah,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: you know that that whole thing about not judging somebody
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: unless you've walked the mile in their shoes is to
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: actually be curious and understand fucking everybody. Everyone is just
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: trying to navigate life, and everyone has their shit, their
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: own shit in their past, their crosses that they're having
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: to bur and and you know, we just can't make
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: these assumptions about people without really understanding, you know, their
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: whole history. So I think being curious about that is important.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: And then the debrief you sort of mentioned that I
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: find particularly in workplaces, they don't do that particularly well.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: We did that very well in the Armed forces, particularly
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: in the air crew world, because you know, if you're
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: you can't really wait to learn from your mistakes. In
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: the air crew world, so we would always always do
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: a brief, and we'd always do a debrief about what
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: went well, what could have gone wrong, all of that.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: And I think that's a really useful strategy, that curiosity
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: about what just happened, interrogating it from from the good,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: the bad, and you know what we could do differently.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: So I love that and I think I think everybody
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: would do better in life if they really dove into curiosity.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: It's a great edition, Paul, because with other people it's
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: really really important, particularly because we often just look at behavior,
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: don't we, and we judge it.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: We judge the behavior rather than go up a level
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: and say, what's the intent behind that behavior? Why are
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: they being like that? You know, so there's stress, they've
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: had a bad day. Of course, when I come and
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: try and give them feedback and they've just walked in
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the office at five past nine and they've had a
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: horrible morning, of course they're going to react in a
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: way that's distasteful or challenging because they're feeling stressed. They
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: want to grab a coffee and settle down. So when
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: we can start to see the intention of behavior, not
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: just judge the behavior, we open up And you know this,
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: you work in this area, you know, five days a week.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: It's we start to open up a whole new world
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: of understanding and used wisely, we can connect with people
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: and influence people in a hugely positive way.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: Because we can empathize with them, we can start to
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: move them to where we want to be by recognizing
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: exactly where they are first. And it's it's an underrated
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: ladyship skill because we just rushed to solution as opposed
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: to that curiosity that can then fast track you know
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: the result you're looking for because you understand the root
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: cause of what's going on.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: And there's another thing I just thought about as you
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: were talking there. My mate Craig Harper is doing his
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: PhD on and I forget the title, but it's basically,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: what is the experience of me from other persons perspective?
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: And it's something that the vast majority of people, Like
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: when the Creek talked me about, I thought, fuck me,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: I've never even thought about that, Like, what is the
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: experience of me from other people? And I think it's
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: worthwhile actually being curious about that as well. Right with
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: that whole idea of learning to be better? Now, a
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: couple of last questions I've got to ask you. One
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: is the getting curve, So what on earth is the
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: forgetting curve and what can we do about it?
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I think they're forgetting curves.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: Essentially, whenever we go and learn new information, we tend
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: if we don't apply it quickly. We tend to forget
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: a lot of what we've learned, and it's a fairly
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: common thing with many training programs, learning programs where there's
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: you know, maybe even the build up to the event
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: and the event itself that we don't do much afterwards.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: How do we get people to make connections? What about
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: when you bump into obstacles?
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: What did you do? What was the learning?
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: All the stuff we've spoken about around curiosity and have
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: a moment where people can learn together and make sure
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: that growing and learning isn't this sense of failure, but
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: this sense of curiosity and experimentation. So without understanding that
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: that is going to happen, even for the best of
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: us who are well intentioned to go and learn, we
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: will forget stuff as soon as we walk out of
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: the room, all the engagement or the experience, all the meeting.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: So we need to have these follow ups.
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: We need to make sure that we're following up and
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: checking in with people and applying what we know and
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: encouraging people when they do make that effort, whether that's successful. Event, Again,
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: what did we learn that went really well? And if
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: it's not well, what did we learn and how do
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: we adjust things to give us a better opportunity of
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: success next time. Pretty easy to do but often forgotten.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: But very very important. I remember in our Karate dol
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Joe was written up in big letters. You win or
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: you learn. That's the thing. Everything's a learning experience. So
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: my last question as a fellow author, is there anything
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: that I know the process of writing a book and
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: or you get it finalized, then it goes off and
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: then it comes back to you and you're you're not
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: allowed to add it anymore, but you've got to just
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: go through it, learn by line and all of that.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: When you did that last review and you couldn't do
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: any more editing, was there anything that you went, oh fuck,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: I should have put that in the book. I just
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: you know, give me, give me, let me just get
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: one more little thing in because I've got a shitty
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: pop them when I read mate, anything for you that's
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: stuck out?
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: Not not really, And that's not because it's the perfect book.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: But I have to say that A made of Mind
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: helped me. We talked about having good support and good
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: allies around us to do good work. And he's a
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: writer in the Australian film industry, and so he was
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: working with me where I'd throw him, you know, two
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: or three chapters, and you know, he was beautifully brutal
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: in his feedback. You know, he served me generously around
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: being honest, and we had a lovely relationship where that
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: honesty could be held within the relationship. So there's lots
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: of like I've heard that before, You've mentioned that before.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: I don't need another story, I get it, move on.
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: So we were doing that through the writing process, and
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: then of course it went to a formal editor, not
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: just the made of mind with experience, and then when
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: she came back it was in relatively good shape. So
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: when it was finished, there wasn't a lot. But I
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: have to say starting it to say well, what goes
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: in the book and what stays out of the book
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: was probably a hard part of the writing. I mean,
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: I haven't mentioned resilience, but that's important about how we
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: maintain a sense of strength in struggle. I didn't tackle
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: that directly as a chapter, even though that was important.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: So getting those first twelve practices, which is sort of
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: what the book's made up of, was a real feat
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: in itself. So that's probably a bit I struggled the most,
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: but it wasn't at the end, it was at the beginning.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: And I think the lesson for me there is that
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: having a professional process around the writing with your bunch across,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: rather than just fucking winging it as I did, that's
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: probably has been the driver of the two different results.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: So men, the book is called better the subtext escape
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: average beat burnout on your life. So if you want
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: to escape average beat burnout and on your life, where
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: are we send people Andrew for the book? Presumably it's
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: for seal on Amazon, your website, all good bookstores.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is, thanks for the opportunity, Paul.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: So the website's probably the easiest is just Andrew Horsfield
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: dot com. If people go there, it opens up most
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: of the things that they'll be looking for from this conversation.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: So that's where i'd send people.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: And just to encourage people if I want to connect,
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: LinkedIn's where I spend most of my time professionally on
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: those social platforms and would always welcome connections from people.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Cool, and presumably coaching and speaking experiences if they
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: want that, go to your website as well.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, website as well.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Awesome good stuff. Matt, good luck with the book.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Thanks Paul, really appreciate that conversation. It has been great.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Jeers