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Transcript

I'm Tired of Being Available · Mostly Offline

0:12
Maria: Welcome to Mostly Offline, the podcast about being a little less online and a little more present.
0:17
Maria: I'm Maria.
0:18
Justin: And I'm Justin.
0:19
Justin: We're here to talk about phones, social media, and all the ways being constantly connected can start to feel like a lot.
0:23
Maria: Today we're talking about feeling like everyone expects us to be available all the time.
0:28
Maria: The instant replies, the hello text, the guilt when you see a message and you don't answer right away.
0:33
Justin: Basically, the moment your phone lights up and you feel like you've been assigned a task.
0:37
Maria: Exactly.
0:38
Maria: And I want to start with this.
0:39
Maria: Justin, do you feel pressure to answer texts right away?
0:42
Justin: Yes.
0:42
Justin: No question.
0:43
Justin: I think in today's society there's an expectation of being constantly available.
0:47
Justin: And I think it comes from like business too and like modern capitalism, I guess.
0:51
Justin: Like you're it's expected that you're always available.
0:54
Justin: I see a lot of these TikToks where it's like a manager texting someone at 9 p.m.
0:58
Justin: and they're like, hey, can you do this board deck for the morning?
1:00
Justin: And it's like, no, I'm in my personal time.
1:02
Justin: Like I think that people are getting so tired from being available all the time.
1:07
Justin: Like I have my phone, I don't know where it is.
1:09
Justin: I don't even put my phone somewhere.
1:12
Justin: I put my phone by the door when I come in the house.
1:13
Justin: I treat it more like a home phone now.
1:15
Justin: And it's been really good for me mentally.
1:17
Justin: Like, what happened to home phones?
1:19
Maria: I know.
1:19
Maria: I miss having a home phone.
1:20
Maria: I feel like it was such a ritual too.
1:22
Maria: Like you would have two separate numbers.
1:24
Maria: The people that you wanted to be able to contact you at home would contact you at home.
1:27
Maria: And it was more so fill up your cup conversations versus having a phone and having people available to text you all the time.
1:35
Maria: Also, not only through iMessages, but Instagram text messages, TikTok, WhatsApp.
1:40
Maria: I mean, how many platforms have you had?
1:42
Maria: I feel like I've had like six at once, and the same person is texting me on all six.
1:47
Justin: Like when people get mad at you, people will get mad at me sometimes.
1:49
Justin: They're like, oh, you didn't see this party invitation on Instagram.
1:52
Justin: And it's like, I have so many messaging apps that I have like an AI assistant that checks my Instagram DMs to make sure I'm not missing anything important now.
1:58
Maria: Cause I'm like, that's diabolical.
2:00
Justin: Should I have to have an assistant for my personal life?
2:02
Justin: Probably not.
2:03
Justin: But like business world, sure.
2:04
Justin: But like in my personal life, it's kind of crazy to think that like I have to have, I have to manage all of these channels.
2:10
Justin: I think when people had home phones, it was more like you'd phone, you'd catch up.
2:14
Justin: It was more of like a task.
2:15
Justin: Like talking on the phone was the task.
2:17
Justin: And I feel like nowadays it's like everybody's so available that they call you and you'll be doing something and you're never like fully in the conversation because you're at the store getting groceries, or you're you're like calling your mom when you have time, and like I'm guilty of it.
2:30
Justin: I don't do it when I have time to sit down and chat.
2:33
Justin: I do it when I'm doing other things because it feels like a task I have to do.
2:37
Maria: Even the fact that on podcast videos now, people are wanting the videos that go with the podcast, not just the audio, or they'll split so it's somebody talking, the audio, and somebody playing Call of Duty.
2:49
Maria: Like, why do you need to be watching all three of those things at the same time?
2:52
Maria: Like, I don't understand.
2:54
Justin: Yeah, like what I don't I don't know what happened to like listening to something as a task.
2:58
Justin: Like I listen to a lot of music now as the primary task, and like I'll put on an album and I'll just like write in my journal.
3:05
Justin: I guess that's not the primary task at that point anymore, but like I'll be like writing my journal or something, but I'm listening to music with more intent rather than like trying to fill the silence in my brain.
3:15
Justin: I think we should be more alone with our thoughts, I guess.
3:17
Justin: Like people are so overstimulated, I think, and we're overstimulating ourselves.
3:22
Maria: And we've talked about this too, and I've mentioned this one billion times to you.
3:25
Maria: But the movie Candyman, I know you have not watched it, but I was watching it, it's diabolical, place in the 80s.
3:32
Maria: We're gonna watch it.
3:33
Justin: But I need to watch it.
3:34
Maria: We are watching it.
3:35
Maria: But when I was watching this, everybody was smoking all the time in restaurants, on the street.
3:40
Maria: And I feel like now in movies they'll smoke, or like if it's 80s themed, they're smoking a bit, but it's not showing it as much as they did in the 80s.
3:48
Maria: And I genuinely believe that people are gonna look back at phone usage and be like, that was as bad as smoking a cigarette.
3:55
Maria: And also another key point to that was to smoke cigarettes, it would help you be social.
4:00
Maria: You would go in the smoking pits, it would invite you into certain like circles, certain conversations.
4:06
Maria: That's kind of what phones are to me right now.
4:09
Maria: Like, I don't want to be on a phone.
4:10
Maria: I know it's bad for me.
4:12
Maria: I don't want to text back.
4:13
Maria: But if I don't, I'm gonna lose friendships.
4:15
Maria: And I'm actually okay with that now.
4:17
Justin: It's there's an expectation societally to be like available all the time, and everyone's like, if you want to have a village, you have to be a villager.
4:24
Justin: But at what point is being a villager more work than like my job?
4:29
Justin: Like it's like your day-to-day career should be as important as like your social life, and people really expect you to be available to them all the time.
4:37
Justin: My biggest thing is that most people I find that want my attention immediately don't offer the same thing back to me.
4:44
Maria: Same.
4:45
Maria: Yeah, exactly the same.
4:46
Justin: So it's like, what do you how do how am I supposed to give you that when you won't give it back to me?
4:53
Maria: I also feel like those same people are the ones that are like, How do you have the time to work out every day?
4:58
Maria: How do you have the time to do these things?
5:00
Maria: And it's like, girl, if you put your phone down and you didn't text everyone everything all the time, you would have time to do that too.
5:06
Maria: You know what I mean?
5:07
Justin: Yeah, like I know that's a cold take.
5:09
Justin: No, it's I I get what you're saying.
5:10
Justin: Like most of the time I spend in the gym is me responding to people because that's the time I have to do it, right?
5:16
Justin: But I think people don't realize that I think people really don't realize that they have eight hours a day of screen time.
5:22
Justin: They just have no idea.
5:23
Maria: Yeah.
5:23
Maria: And I'm gonna preface this.
5:25
Maria: My dad is a physician, and he often says, if you have a brand new car and somebody is selling a type of oil, and they say this oil is gonna make your car smell really good, but there's a chance that it could seep onto the leather and stain the leather, would you put the oil in your car?
5:39
Justin: No.
5:39
Maria: No, you'd say this is my new car.
5:41
Maria: I'm never putting this in my car.
5:42
Maria: But when it comes to social media and phones, this is seriously damaging your brain.
5:47
Maria: CBC just came out with a paper saying kids and young adults are addicted to screens.
5:52
Maria: New research argues it may be a public health concern.
5:55
Maria: No, I don't think it's arguing that it's a public health concern.
5:58
Maria: I think it is a public health concern, and we're not taking it as seriously as we should.
6:01
Maria: And coming back to the car reference, your body being that car, if I came up to you and I said, hey, this device is gonna make all these things accessible to you, help you, but it's also gonna cause your brain damage and give you intense anxiety, you're gonna take it and you're gonna say, Oh yeah, I'm gonna use this because it's just my body.
6:16
Maria: Like, doesn't matter, but if it's your new car, it's like something new that you bought, you would never put that on the line.
6:22
Maria: And I find it really crazy that we have that separation between us and things.
6:27
Maria: It's crazy.
6:28
Justin: Yeah, I think it's that it I think it's that social media changed very slowly from like I remember when I first got Instagram, it was very much like my friends' posts, and it was what was going on with my friends, and it was only people I wanted to see.
6:44
Justin: And now social media has like slid in the last 10 years from an actual social network to an ad engine where I might see my friends' posts once in a while, but like store Instagram stories.
6:56
Justin: Sometimes I have like four ads in a row before it gets to the next story, and it's like, so then if you're the next story, I've already swiped out of Instagram stories because I'm sick by the third ad, I'm like, I'm not doing this anymore, and I'm closing Instagram.
7:07
Justin: I've spent a lot of time getting off of social media.
7:10
Justin: I got that brick device, so my phone, I can't get on social media from 10 p.m.
7:14
Justin: to 10 a.m.
7:14
Justin: Social media, I mean, I use social media, so I like to use it during the day.
7:19
Justin: I think it can be really good for marketing yourself.
7:22
Justin: It can be good for business, it can be good for all these things, but it can also be very bad for you.
7:26
Maria: And this also brings me to a point narcissism is a genetic trait, but do you believe that with social media and the way that marketing has gone, it's so personalized to you and you and you and you, not the whole village, not everybody as a whole, not a community.
7:39
Maria: Do you think that there's a huge rise in narcissism because of this?
7:44
Justin: Yeah, probably.
7:45
Justin: And I think selfishness too, like maybe not like narcissism by the like clinical standpoint or the like definition clinically, but definitely a selfishness where like you feel like you're more important than other people.
7:57
Justin: And when you're getting constant reassurance from your followers, you're going to feel that way.
8:04
Justin: There's it's like impossible for the human brain to be like, oh yeah, I feel completely normal when you're getting 100,000 likes on your Instagram post, right?
8:11
Justin: There is gonna be that selfishness or this I'm more important vibe that you're getting.
8:15
Justin: It's very hard, I think, for humans to have this many connections.
8:20
Justin: Like we were, we were probably only meant really to have a hundred connections in our little village.
8:26
Justin: We were never meant to be living in these crazy cities, right?
8:28
Justin: Like eventually we're gonna get there like as we evolve.
8:32
Justin: But when the human brain was designed, quote unquote, by the earth or whatever, we probably weren't expected to have this many social connections.
8:38
Justin: That's just not healthy.
8:39
Maria: Well, our brain, I know that we can only remember 250 names.
8:43
Maria: And people, I'm from a small town.
8:45
Maria: These people I literally have been going to school with since preschool.
8:49
Maria: Now that I've graduated, haven't seen them in like 10 years.
8:52
Maria: I don't remember some of their names.
8:53
Maria: I'm in town at Christmas time, I see their face.
8:55
Maria: I'm like, oh yeah, what is their name?
8:57
Maria: I knew this person in grade five.
8:59
Maria: Like, I feel like exactly what you were saying, we don't have capacity.
9:02
Maria: And also things that are good take time to make.
9:06
Maria: Good friendships, good sour bro, good sourdough friend.
9:10
Maria: Do you know what I mean?
9:12
Justin: Yeah.
9:12
Maria: Like it just takes time.
9:13
Maria: And I feel like we constantly think that things should be instant.
9:16
Maria: Like bumble friend, for instance.
9:18
Maria: You can't just match with someone and instantly be best friends.
9:22
Maria: I feel like it's something that you have to like work towards and put in effort.
9:26
Maria: And there's no way all my friends I can put in the exact same amount of energy.
9:31
Maria: You know what I mean?
9:32
Justin: No, it's impossible.
9:33
Justin: And it's so hard to have a lot of connections because they're time consuming.
9:36
Justin: And it's like you have to spend so much time farming these relationships and like, or I guess nurturing these relationships.
9:43
Justin: And I mean it's really easy to like fall apart from it, especially if you're going through anything.
9:48
Justin: Like if you're going through a rough patch in your life and you need some alone time, your friendships start to slip, right?
9:53
Justin: Your real friends, your really close friends, they're probably not gonna slip because they're gonna notice, but your acquaintances, they're the first ones to be like, oh, you haven't been coming out to a lot of things lately.
10:02
Justin: You never spend time with us.
10:03
Justin: That makes me feel so bad when someone says that.
10:06
Justin: And I'm like, I'm struggling with depression, and the first thing you have to say to me is like, you never come hang out with us.
10:12
Maria: Like, yeah, it's like kick a horse while they're down, you know?
10:14
Justin: Like I'm having trouble getting out of bed, right?
10:16
Justin: Like it's like I can't, I'm not going to the gym, I'm not doing anything I like doing.
10:20
Justin: But it's so hard because people don't, most a lot of people don't get it.
10:23
Justin: They don't understand it.
10:23
Justin: They might not have gone through it in their life.
10:26
Justin: And like, if they haven't, I'm happy for them because that that's something that I wouldn't wish upon anyone.
10:31
Maria: Could you imagine?
10:32
Justin: I no, I couldn't, because I've been through it, so I couldn't.
10:36
Maria: But I also feel like this shift of selfish culture we've talked about before.
10:40
Maria: If you get invited to a birthday, if you're burnt out to still go, because it's gonna be better for you.
10:45
Maria: Because at the end of the day, what are you gonna do?
10:47
Maria: You're gonna kind of burn a bridge with that friendship, and then you're gonna be at home.
10:51
Maria: Are you gonna read a book or are you gonna scroll on social media and add to your burnout?
10:55
Maria: Like we're already burnt out from work.
10:56
Maria: We don't need to be burnt out from all these text messages and all these things that are coming at us.
11:02
Maria: So, what are some things that you've done that have helped you with that burnout or setting up those boundaries?
11:07
Justin: I think just telling people, being more clear.
11:09
Justin: Like most of my new friends, I used to be really, really available.
11:13
Justin: And like I still try to be available for urgent items.
11:16
Justin: But I think all my new friends really understand this that, like, if you text me and say, Hey, can you do this at 5 p.m.
11:23
Justin: today?
11:23
Justin: I will respond to you immediately.
11:25
Justin: If you send me TikTok, I might not respond for a couple days.
11:28
Justin: There's various levels of urgency when you text me.
11:30
Justin: Just because you have my phone number does not mean you have immediate access to me.
11:34
Justin: Um, if you phone me, I will answer the phone if I'm available.
11:36
Justin: But I think that there's a, I think you have to tell people.
11:39
Justin: I think you have to make it clear what your availability is.
11:41
Justin: My old friends, I've just told them.
11:44
Justin: I'm like, listen, I'm trying to focus more on my mental health.
11:47
Justin: My phone's at the door, it's on ring.
11:49
Justin: If you want to call me, I will answer it if I'm available.
11:52
Justin: But a text, a group chat, as soon as I'm in a group chat, I'm muting it.
11:55
Justin: And maybe that's a hot take, maybe that's not the nicest thing to do, but I cannot, I don't have the emotional capacity to take on all of these like texts.
12:04
Justin: Like sometimes I have like 65 text messages, and I'm like, now I have to spend an hour of my life texting people back.
12:10
Justin: And I, this is such a hot take because it sounds like I'm being so selfish and like it's like, oh, you have so many friends, that must be so hard for you.
12:16
Justin: It's like, no, I like it's because I care about the relationships I have and I really want to put the effort in.
12:23
Maria: Yeah, I'm the same.
12:23
Maria: I don't want to respond until I have the capacity to respond.
12:27
Maria: So, like you were saying with my newer friendships, I've really made the boundary.
12:30
Maria: But then my old friendships have kind of suffered, I'm not gonna lie, because I've just set it up so clear now that it's like, if you can't deal with this, I can't be your friend.
12:39
Maria: I'm sorry.
12:39
Maria: I need to have friends with the same expectations.
12:42
Maria: And you know, if anything happened or if you called me, I would be there for you 1000%.
12:47
Maria: But you and I are also different because we both have ADHD.
12:50
Maria: So we'll send each other like TikToks or reels or super one-off messages.
12:54
Maria: Like sometimes I won't even respond to a question that you've texted me.
12:59
Maria: I'll just send you something random and then I'll get back to you.
13:02
Maria: You know, same.
13:03
Maria: But other people, we've talked about this, you won't want to send the TikTok or the reel because you're like, oh, I haven't responded to their previous message.
13:11
Justin: I definitely have DMs in my Instagram where someone has sent me probably 30 reels.
13:15
Justin: And I cannot send them, I can't send them a post that makes me think about them because I feel so bad that they that I have not looked at their messages, but I just don't have the capacity sometimes.
13:28
Justin: And I'm like, and then I feel bad.
13:29
Justin: Unless I know you have ADHD, then I'll just send you it because you'll understand.
13:32
Justin: But for most people, I'm like, I really think that these should be communication platforms.
13:36
Justin: And I also think if you're telling me stuff all the time and you're always talking to me, what are we gonna talk about when we're in real life?
13:42
Justin: Because that's what's important, like real life connections.
13:46
Maria: And I think too, that's probably why people are struggling with relationships now too, because they'll text all the time.
13:52
Maria: And in a new relationship, obviously the first few dates are kind of awkward.
13:56
Maria: They just are.
13:56
Maria: That's just the way it is.
13:57
Maria: So you show up, and even if you have chemistry, if you have a really good first date, what I find a lot of my friends are saying is the second date isn't as good.
14:04
Maria: And it's because the first date goes really good, then they're texting 24-7, then they meet up, they have nothing to talk about, and they get bored.
14:11
Maria: And it's like being bored in a relationship, number one, is okay and that's just gonna happen.
14:15
Maria: But number two, if you didn't text 24-7 and then you just met up with that person, you could talk about your week and actually have good conversations, you know?
14:23
Justin: Yeah.
14:23
Justin: When Max and I started dating, we were very, he's very busy, I was very busy.
14:28
Justin: And so we spent a lot of our time together catching up because we didn't have time to text each other constantly.
14:35
Justin: And it's created like a really strong foundation because we used a lot of voice notes and stuff.
14:39
Justin: We would talk on the phone.
14:40
Justin: We're both very busy.
14:41
Justin: Sometimes that's all we had.
14:43
Justin: The only time we had was like 15 minutes before bed to catch up.
14:46
Justin: And but it made it so that every time we saw each other, we put our phones on the counter and we weren't on our phones.
14:52
Justin: We were just catching up, we were learning about each other, and our dates weren't boring because we were always learning.
14:57
Justin: We're still I'm still some days.
14:58
Justin: I'm like still learning things about him.
15:00
Justin: We've been together for three years.
15:01
Justin: Like the other day I learned something about him, and I was like, I did not know that.
15:04
Justin: And it's like, I love that because I'm never aboard with him.
15:07
Justin: I'm always like learning something new, I'm always getting to know him better.
15:10
Justin: I don't think it's healthy to like know everything about someone and like you stalk them on their social media and like there's so much like that.
15:16
Maria: Yeah, even the sharing the locations is whack to me.
15:19
Maria: Like, I've had friends before where if they're talking to a guy, they'll go on SnapMaps or they'll go on iMessaging like maps, zoom in on the person and be like, oh, I don't know why they're here, or I don't know why are they hanging out with like so-and-so.
15:33
Maria: It's like, girl, focus on yourself, focus on yourself.
15:36
Maria: You are feeding your anxiety right now.
15:38
Maria: Like, what are you doing?
15:40
Justin: Yeah, like my location is a privilege.
15:42
Justin: If you have it, it's so that you can see like when I'm gonna get somewhere, or you're like, I don't care.
15:48
Justin: If you if you have my location and you want to show up here, if you can see I'm at home and you want to show up here and buzz me and come in, do it.
15:53
Justin: I don't care.
15:53
Justin: Like, I like that like knock on the door, like I'm in the neighborhood, whatever.
15:57
Justin: I love that.
15:58
Justin: Max doesn't have my location, I don't have his location.
16:00
Justin: It's not something we want from each other.
16:02
Justin: Like if we're traveling, sure.
16:04
Justin: Like temporarily share our locations for safety or whatever.
16:07
Justin: Yeah.
16:07
Justin: But like most of the time, like if I find out you're stalking my location, you will not have it anymore because it's just not healthy.
16:13
Maria: I don't know how I would feel if I found out somebody was stalking my location.
16:17
Maria: Not good.
16:18
Justin: Yeah, it would make me feel icky, I think.
16:19
Maria: It's super icky.
16:20
Maria: And why is that normalized now?
16:22
Justin: I think everybody, I think people view that as like a level of friendship.
16:25
Justin: Like if you're close enough to share your location, that means you're like better friends.
16:28
Justin: But it's like, I don't think it is.
16:30
Justin: I like it for like if I'm at dinner and I'm sitting down and I'm like waiting for someone to get there and I look at their location, I'm like, oh, they're two minutes away, whatever.
16:37
Justin: Like that, I think is all I use it for.
16:39
Justin: Or if I'm like at a festival or something and I'm just trying to find someone like Stampede, I'm finding people using location all the time.
16:47
Justin: Like it's really accurate, but I don't think it's healthy to like know that much about people.
16:51
Maria: I think it's a little bit too much, a little bit diabolical.
16:54
Justin: Yeah.
16:54
Maria: And it's the same thing with influencers.
16:56
Maria: Like, I do appreciate a good influencer and a good vlog, but at the end of the day, I really try to communicate to people they're not posting these things to be your friend.
17:06
Maria: They're not posting these things to help you.
17:09
Maria: They're posting these things at the end of the day to make money.
17:12
Maria: Everybody on the app, it's to make money.
17:15
Maria: It may start out as good intention, it may be a good intention, but I feel like because marketing has become so specific, it's caused people even more burnout and more anxiety with their phones.
17:26
Maria: Because, like you were saying, the ads are extremely targeted.
17:29
Maria: The influencers now are targeting you.
17:31
Maria: I would even argue that law is gonna have to change because when you download an app, they give you that crazy terms and conditions.
17:38
Maria: And to download the app, you have to accept.
17:41
Maria: But when you're accepting, you're giving away your data.
17:43
Maria: And that's how these influencers and these apps are making money because they're making it so specific to what you're clicking on.
17:49
Maria: They're watching every single move.
17:50
Maria: I really think that there's gonna be some crazy lawsuits that come out.
17:54
Justin: Yeah, there needs to be more like transparency and advertising too.
17:57
Justin: Like almost every post from an influencer is like trying to sell you something, especially like when in when influencing is your job.
18:04
Justin: Like, how can you follow someone and be like, wow, this is really good for me, right?
18:09
Justin: Like, and like there's lots of influencers I love, but they need you need to be transparent when you're trying to sell someone something.
18:15
Justin: And it's sometimes it's not transparent.
18:17
Justin: We live in a capitalist society, everybody wants these things.
18:20
Justin: Like you see an influencer wearing a cute outfit and you're like, oh, I want to buy that.
18:23
Justin: They probably didn't pay for it.
18:24
Justin: And we're always comparing ourselves to other people, and comparison is the thief of joy.
18:29
Justin: Like you're if you're always comparing yourself to someone else, you're gonna be struggling to be happy.
18:34
Maria: But also, I find it diabolical.
18:36
Maria: I keep saying diabolical, but these things are diabolical.
18:38
Maria: Influencers that are specifically in fitness, which I am trying to be, and I've been personal training now for seven years, teaching HIT classes, trying to push my content.
18:48
Maria: People that I know that are really successful, that I've been friends with, when they have lost weight, it's been because something super traumatic has happened to them.
18:56
Maria: They break up, they're really depressed, things are not going well.
18:59
Maria: As soon as they reach a certain weight, do you think that they're actually telling their audience how they actually lost that weight?
19:04
Maria: Or do you think that they're telling them, oh, actually, if you eat like this, if you have a good routine, if you do this, you're you're gonna look like me too?
19:11
Maria: Like it's all fake.
19:12
Justin: It's also a lot of a lot of like unregulated peptides and like GLP1s, all of these influencers that I see, and I look at them and I'm like, oh, I wish I was as jacked as them.
19:24
Justin: I don't know if they're on steroids, right?
19:26
Justin: Like they might be.
19:27
Justin: They probably are.
19:28
Justin: And it's like, how do you, how do you look at that?
19:31
Justin: How does a normal person look at that and think, wow, how do I achieve that?
19:34
Justin: You can't unless you are willing to do these things.
19:38
Justin: I don't want to do them.
19:39
Justin: So how do you get past that?
19:41
Maria: And I think this is where our dilemma is.
19:43
Maria: We don't want to be anxious with our phones.
19:44
Maria: We've set up boundaries, but that's also ended like some friendships and some social circles for us.
19:50
Maria: And so it sucks because doing something that actually is good for you, you feel isolated and you feel like you're not the norm.
19:58
Maria: And I find that really sad because all this research and when it comes to businesses and AI, I know you and I love a good AI.
20:05
Maria: Okay.
20:06
Maria: We love a good AI.
20:07
Maria: It's gonna help us, right?
20:08
Maria: But AI was meant to do our job so we could paint, we could cook, we could spend time with our friends.
20:15
Maria: Why is AI making the paintings?
20:17
Maria: Why is AI doing these things for us while we're grinding?
20:21
Maria: And then on top of that, we're getting all those notifications.
20:24
Maria: We're literally living in a sea of something that doesn't even exist.
20:28
Maria: It's just tech messages, text marketing, like literally everything.
20:33
Justin: It's crazy.
20:33
Justin: I was thinking a lot lately about um, well, I got a new phone, I got a new phone plan.
20:38
Justin: So I had to set up my voicemail.
20:39
Justin: And so I was thinking about it was like setting up your voicemail, and I was like, okay, so I'm gonna record my voicemail, hey, sorry I missed you, blah, blah, blah.
20:47
Justin: And I was thinking, when did it change from I'm sorry you missed me to I'm sorry I missed you?
20:53
Justin: Because when we had answering machines, well, I'm I mean, like, I don't remember having an answering machine, but when I was a little kid, I guess, when you had answering machines, it was like, hey, you've reached the so-and-so's, sorry we missed you, leave us a message and we'll get back to you.
21:05
Justin: And now it's like, hey, I'm so sorry that I missed your call.
21:08
Justin: Leave me a message and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
21:10
Justin: There's a sense of urgency even in that.
21:12
Justin: Like, you missed me.
21:14
Justin: My phone rang and I didn't hear it.
21:15
Justin: You missed me, I didn't miss you, right?
21:17
Justin: And I think that that's like a societal shift.
21:19
Justin: And I don't know when it happened.
21:21
Justin: I think it's when we started carrying around cell phones in our pockets.
21:24
Maria: I hate it.
21:25
Justin: I've started like not taking my phone to the grocery store.
21:27
Justin: I will leave it at home.
21:28
Justin: It's really healthy, but there are things that are annoying, like you can't get an Uber.
21:33
Justin: Like, I wish I could go out and not take my phone, but it's so hard not to.
21:37
Maria: Well, they have.
21:37
Maria: I sent you that link.
21:38
Maria: They're making this new phone that looks like a Tom Magotchi kind of, and all it has is Spotify, Uber, Maps, and I think it does have text messages, but I think it limits to how many contacts you can have.
21:50
Justin: Oh, yeah.
21:50
Justin: I let like that's why I downgraded to the iPhone 13 mini because I was looking at all these like dumb phones or like these more like Blackberry style phones, and then I Was like, you know what, but I still really like iMessage and I really like like the iOS ecosystem.
22:04
Justin: I like these things.
22:05
Justin: I don't want technology to be abrasive, but I want it to be a little bit abrasive.
22:10
Justin: And the iPhone 13 mini, it's not fast.
22:12
Justin: Like I went from the newest iPhone to a four-year-old iPhone.
22:15
Justin: It's slower, it's not pleasant to use, but I find I use my phone less.
22:20
Maria: Which is good.
22:21
Justin: Yeah.
22:21
Justin: And so now I just like leave my phone at home sometimes, and there's always an argument for like, oh, Apple pay this, Apple Pay that.
22:27
Justin: Take your wallet.
22:28
Justin: Do you have a debit card?
22:29
Justin: Do you have a credit card?
22:30
Justin: Put it, take your wallet with you.
22:31
Justin: You probably have your wallet anyway because you need your ID when you go do things, right?
22:34
Maria: I've also been doing this ever since, I don't even know how many years.
22:37
Maria: Literally, since I've gotten a phone.
22:39
Maria: Because my dad, he does not have a cell phone and he refuses to own one.
22:43
Maria: And like I said, he's a physician, a physician, and he's running his own clinic as a family doctor, and he refuses to have a phone.
22:50
Maria: If people need him, they can call him at the office and the hospital has his home phone, but when he's off work, he's unavailable.
22:57
Maria: And I feel like that is actually the best role model I could have had growing up because I have the same mindset.
23:04
Maria: I'm like, this is what I'm available, this is what I'm not.
23:07
Maria: And I put my phone away.
23:08
Maria: So when the brick came out, I thought, this is whack.
23:11
Maria: Why would somebody pay $150 to tap their phone on a brick to make it essentially turn off certain apps?
23:19
Maria: You have free will, turn it off.
23:21
Maria: I think it's crazy that it's gotten to this point.
23:23
Justin: It is crazy, but it's an addiction.
23:25
Justin: And I don't think there's enough, I don't think we talk about it being an addiction enough.
23:31
Justin: Your phone gives you the same dopamine that like smoking or going out with your friends or these things give you.
23:38
Justin: It's a drug.
23:39
Justin: Like it gives you that dopamine, and then your body gets used to getting it, and your body's like, hey, I want you to go look at TikTok because I get dopamine from that.
23:46
Justin: It's a drug.
23:47
Maria: Did you know that there's websites and apps coming out now where people will just online shop, but they're not actually buying anything, they just fake purchase things to get the dopamine hit because online shopping has gotten to such an insane population of people have it now.
24:02
Justin: That's actually kind of funny.
24:04
Justin: I think that's actually kind of healthy.
24:05
Justin: Like if you have if you like that dopamine, I know that's like an ADHD thing.
24:09
Justin: Like, I do like to shop.
24:11
Justin: I like to like buy things.
24:12
Justin: I do like that dopamine, so that's kind of funny.
24:14
Justin: I think it's like online gambling.
24:16
Justin: People are always like, oh, online gambling this, online gambling that.
24:19
Justin: I don't gamble.
24:20
Justin: To me, Candy Crush and the slots are the same thing.
24:23
Justin: I'm gonna like I'm not losing money with Candy Crush and I'm gonna lose money with the slots.
24:27
Justin: You know what I mean?
24:28
Justin: So it's like to me, I would much rather just play a stupid little game on my phone.
24:31
Justin: I understand some people have addiction with gambling, but to I'm like, why can't you just like play a game on your phone?
24:37
Justin: The slots are the exact same on your phone as in the casino.
24:39
Justin: Like, but you're not winning anything, but it's like, are you actually winning in the casino?
24:43
Maria: It's kind of whack how phones we just develop these addictions, it feels like overnight.
24:49
Maria: Like I feel as though the main population, we've been thinking phones are fine.
24:54
Maria: I guess that was like with smoking, though.
24:56
Maria: At one point they thought smoking was really good for you.
24:59
Maria: Yeah, and then they were like, no, like doctors used to promote smoking.
25:02
Maria: Yeah.
25:02
Justin: Yeah.
25:02
Justin: Yeah, absolutely.
25:03
Justin: So well, nicotine's not bad for you in itself.
25:06
Justin: Like it's good for focus, it's good for these things.
25:08
Justin: The delivery methods are all bad for you.
25:10
Justin: Like, but nicotine by itself, like it's like alcohol.
25:13
Justin: I always say to people, like, if alcohol came out today, there is no way the government would make it legal.
25:18
Justin: It would be a banned substance so fast.
25:21
Justin: It's because of the tax revenue, it's because it's so societal, it's been around forever.
25:25
Justin: Like, weed was legalized, marijuana was legalized.
25:28
Justin: Alcohol would not be.
25:29
Justin: It does not, it is not, it is bad for you.
25:32
Maria: It's poison.
25:32
Justin: Like, it is poison.
25:33
Justin: That's why you're hungover.
25:34
Justin: Like I was joking on Sunday, I'm quitting drinking.
25:37
Justin: Like, I every time I drink, I'm like the next day I'm like, I'm gonna quit drinking.
25:40
Justin: I hate drinking.
25:41
Justin: But I do like the I do like that it takes the edge off a little bit.
25:45
Justin: Like I'm a shy person.
25:46
Justin: It gives me a little more confidence in social situations.
25:49
Justin: But because of my ADHD, I'm very bad at saying like four drinks is enough.
25:55
Justin: I'll have eight drinks, whatever.
25:56
Justin: I'm bad at saying no once I'm in those situations, and then I just drink too much and then I'm hungover.
26:01
Maria: Relating it to this, I haven't been drinking very much since again, 2018-ish.
26:07
Maria: And I found it really interesting because I never had a problem with alcohol.
26:11
Maria: I just don't really like the taste of it.
26:13
Maria: And I just thought I'm just gonna go out and be social and I'll just have a Diet Coke, addicted for life, like obsessed with Diet Coke.
26:20
Maria: But whenever I would go out, people would be like, Why aren't you drinking?
26:23
Maria: Why aren't you drinking?
26:24
Maria: And really pressure me to drink.
26:26
Maria: It's like, I'm not asking you why you are drinking.
26:28
Maria: Why are you asking me why I am not drinking?
26:31
Maria: And it's the same thing with my phone.
26:32
Maria: If I'm not replying to you, it's because I don't have the capacity to reply to you.
26:36
Maria: And you need to respect that just the same way that I don't want to drink.
26:39
Maria: I'm not sure why you're bombarding me, asking me all the time, why aren't you replying?
26:44
Maria: Why aren't you on your phone?
26:46
Maria: Why are you doing this?
26:47
Maria: Anytime I'm on social media, it's to either find content that I want to produce or to make content.
26:53
Maria: It's not to consume because I know how bad that is.
26:56
Maria: I need to go on it with a purpose.
26:58
Justin: Yeah, like it's your job.
26:59
Justin: I think I have never even considered that.
27:01
Justin: Like, I've never even considered when people say, like, why aren't you drinking?
27:05
Justin: Because there's times where I'm not drinking and people are like, Why aren't you drinking?
27:07
Justin: You always have to like justify it with a reason.
27:09
Justin: And it's kind of funny because it's like, I've never asked you why you are drinking.
27:13
Justin: And it's like phones are the exact same way.
27:16
Justin: I think it should be social more socially unacceptable to be on your phone.
27:19
Justin: Like if we're having dinner and I know I'm gonna get an important text message, my phone is in my pocket, and if it vibrates, I will go to the bathroom, look at the text message, I'll say, excuse me, I get a phone call, excuse me, I have to take this phone call, but I'll tell you that ahead of time.
27:32
Justin: But that's a conscious effort I've been making to try to be more present and more in my in the moment.
27:39
Maria: Maybe we should make a phone pit, you know?
27:41
Maria: Maybe you should go to this little area, you should sit down and you should reply to your text if you're that addicted.
27:46
Maria: If we made it socially embarrassing, people would not do it.
27:49
Maria: It's the fact that people they realize how bad it is for them.
27:53
Maria: Same with alcohol, same with certain things.
27:55
Maria: They realize how bad it is for them, but they're like, oh, it's okay.
27:58
Maria: I don't think people understand the extent to what is happening to your brain when you are on your phone.
28:03
Maria: I don't think people understand how much anxiety is actually coming from their phone.
28:07
Maria: I think that they think, hee hee ha ha, I need to I have 54 unread text messages.
28:11
Maria: That looming over you for days brings you down.
28:15
Maria: It's eating your energy.
28:17
Justin: Yeah, it's like task paralysis.
28:19
Justin: A text to me could be, hey, how are you?
28:22
Justin: Or it could be, hey, do you have time to do this?
28:24
Justin: And it's like, okay, now I have to look at my calendar.
28:26
Justin: I need to put a reminder.
28:27
Justin: You're like you texting me is assigning me a task without my consent, really, right?
28:33
Justin: And it's like, I don't think people appreciate that enough.
28:35
Justin: They feel it, I feel it, you feel it, but we don't think about that when we're texting.
28:40
Justin: And like when I'm reaching out to you, I'm not like, oh, I'm assigning Maria a task.
28:43
Justin: But it's like, that's how we should be thinking about it.
28:45
Maria: I agree.
28:45
Maria: I feel like we just need to throw our phones not away, but I feel like people really need to start realizing and clocking what is happening here.
28:54
Justin: Let's just throw them in a river.
28:55
Maria: Yeah.
28:55
Maria: Why don't we all just throw them in a river?
28:58
Justin: Let's all get home phones again.
28:59
Justin: Everyone get home phones and then we'll call each other.
29:02
Justin: I need to circle back to your dad not having a cell phone.
29:04
Justin: Um does he have a pager?
29:06
Maria: No.
29:06
Justin: Oh my god, I was kind of hoping you'd have a pager because I've I'm just obsessed with him.
29:10
Justin: I kind of want a pager, but I don't think you can get them anymore.
29:12
Maria: He has literally nothing and he's so successful.
29:15
Maria: Like my mom has a phone, and the only reason why he uses her phone is he'll go for like a hundred-kilometer bike rides, and he wants to have a device where he can call my mom to get her to come pick him up.
29:25
Maria: Or if he gets a flat tire, he needs an emergency phone to call.
29:30
Justin: Yeah.
29:30
Maria: He's one of the smartest people I have ever met in my life.
29:33
Maria: Actually, the smartest person I have ever met in my life.
29:36
Maria: And when I was a kid, he always used to say, phones are bad for you.
29:40
Maria: Nobody should ever be this available.
29:42
Maria: The rich are literally not going to have phones.
29:45
Maria: They're gonna be untouchable.
29:47
Maria: And I remember when the iPhone came out, my dad was saying this, and I was just like, What do you mean?
29:52
Maria: This is awesome.
29:53
Maria: I don't know what you're talking about.
29:54
Maria: You're whack.
29:55
Maria: Every single single year since my dad said this, I'm like, yeah, this is so hard facts.
30:00
Maria: This is so true.
30:02
Justin: That's crazy.
30:03
Justin: No, I I feel it.
30:04
Justin: Like I there's times where I'm like, I would love to just have a home phone.
30:08
Justin: The problem is phones aren't available enough in public anymore to only rely on a home phone.
30:13
Justin: Like your dad's obviously relying on your mom when they're out and about to use her phone if they need a phone.
30:17
Justin: Because when's the last time you saw a payphone?
30:18
Maria: Never.
30:19
Justin: If you go into a business and ask them to use their phone, they think you're gonna phone China collect, right?
30:24
Justin: Like they think you're gonna have a $2,000 phone bill.
30:26
Justin: They're not gonna let you use the phone.
30:27
Justin: Most businesses probably don't even have a phone anymore.
30:30
Justin: They just have their employees.
30:32
Justin: I'm not letting anyone make a phone call on my phone.
30:34
Justin: So I feel like that's the other problem is society's shifted away from that.
30:37
Justin: And so it's really hard to not have a phone anymore.
30:40
Justin: Or not to not have to just have a home phone.
30:42
Maria: Yeah, I don't know how you escape that loop.
30:44
Maria: I've also thought about potentially just using my iPhone for content because I have the new iPhone, getting a flip phone and having a really specific number and being okay with only 10 people having that number.
30:57
Justin: I tried that for a while.
30:58
Justin: It's really hard.
30:59
Justin: I did try it.
31:00
Justin: Like I got an old, I got an old iPhone for a while and I had two phone numbers, and it was just like hard because it's like, who do you give the number to?
31:07
Justin: And like, but I mean it's not the end of the world.
31:10
Justin: You can still use like WhatsApp and iMessage, and like Apple just came out with a feature on the new iOS that's like, you know how your Apple Watch can have a phone number on it?
31:17
Justin: And you could just know that.
31:18
Justin: So there's like cellular Apple Watches that you can just have a phone.
31:21
Justin: You could like leave your phone at home and have your Apple Watch, and then you can get phone calls and texts.
31:25
Justin: They have a new feature on the new iOS where you can have two phones that have the same number.
31:29
Maria: Oh.
31:29
Justin: So you could have like an old iPhone where you just take that out, it has no apps on it.
31:33
Justin: But then I was like, the brick is the exact same thing at that point.
31:36
Justin: Also, for everybody listening, the brick is not $150, it's only like $40.
31:40
Justin: Oh, I thought it was a picture.
31:42
Justin: No, no, no.
31:43
Justin: You should have been like Rio, what are you talking about?
31:46
Maria: You're like, this girl's dying.
31:47
Justin: But I was like, uh, I would not spend $150 on that.
31:50
Justin: But there's a lot of great free apps.
31:51
Justin: There's an app called Focos, like F-O-Q-O-S.
31:55
Justin: It's made by a developer in Calgary.
31:57
Justin: He wanted something like the brick, but without the hardware.
32:01
Justin: And you can just buy like a little NFC tag, stick it to whatever, or you can use a barcode on like whatever.
32:05
Justin: You can use a barcode on like something in your house if you want.
32:08
Justin: And so there's like great free apps that do the same thing.
32:11
Justin: I like the brick because the brick is the only way I can unlock my phone.
32:15
Justin: It's by the door.
32:16
Justin: And like it does stop me when I'm in bed and like I reach, I don't actually keep my phone in my room anymore, but when I did, I'd be like, I'd go on TikTok and it's like your phone's bricked.
32:24
Justin: The 20 feet from my bed to where the brick is is enough friction that I will not go on TikTok.
32:29
Justin: And it's like, it's crazy that that's how little friction it takes, but it makes it better.
32:34
Justin: Now I don't keep my phone in my room anymore.
32:36
Justin: I just keep my phone charging by the door.
32:37
Justin: I need to start doing that.
32:39
Justin: Yeah, I got an alarm clock.
32:40
Justin: It's weird.
32:41
Maria: But I do I like the alarm clocks though, because I have one that's like the sun and it's really good.
32:46
Maria: It's really good for you.
32:47
Maria: It's good to lower your anxiety.
32:49
Maria: I love it.
32:50
Justin: I like that too.
32:51
Justin: I like the alarm clock.
32:52
Justin: I find in the morning I still push snooze, but I'm not pushing snooze and going on my phone.
32:56
Justin: I'm pushing snooze and I'm having a little another nine minutes and or I'm picking up my Kobo and I'm reading a book in the morning.
33:03
Justin: And then sometimes I'm making a coffee and going back to bed, and I'm not grabbing my phone until I start my day.
33:08
Justin: And it's so refreshing to not be glued to it.
33:12
Justin: It took me months of like not withdrawals, but you know what I mean?
33:16
Justin: Like you do, every time you get in an elevator, you open Instagram or you open TikTok or you look at your texts.
33:22
Justin: And I find now that I like have really gotten used to not using my phone, I don't do that as much.
33:26
Justin: It's really nice.
33:27
Maria: And not to fear monger, but in my mind, using your phone that much or using AI that much, it's making your brain into your phone.
33:36
Maria: If you don't use it, you lose it.
33:38
Maria: So your brain is literally turning into mush, and you're relying on these AIs and you're relying on all these things to bring you dopamine, to give you happiness.
33:46
Maria: And yes, I know it's an addiction, and I think it's whack that it's gotten to that point.
33:50
Maria: And then it's so common.
33:52
Maria: Like I feel like everybody, even me, and I'm really hyper aware of it, I could cut back social media time.
33:58
Maria: I could cut back all of the time on my phone, really.
34:00
Maria: But I feel like you and I too, we're really aware of it and we're cutting back, but we still feel anxious even though we're doing those things and even though we've set up those boundaries.
34:09
Maria: Like, I don't know what else there is to do, really.
34:11
Justin: I think it's because society, I think that maybe we're a little ahead of society and like we're like trying to make this change to feel better about our our lives and like to we're trying to make a change in the people around us too, and to like make it more acceptable to not be on your phone.
34:27
Justin: And I think when you're trying to break the mold, it's a little uncomfortable.
34:31
Maria: It's super uncomfortable.
34:32
Maria: And I feel like a lot of my older friends, like we talked about, they just don't get it, which sucks.
34:36
Justin: It does suck.
34:37
Maria: It really does suck.
34:38
Maria: It does.
34:38
Maria: But this week, let's try one small thing, maybe mute a chat, put your phone away during a meal, or wait until you actually have the energy to reply.
34:46
Justin: And if you're listening, tell us what's one phone boundary you want to try.
34:50
Maria: Thanks for listening to Mostly Offline.
34:51
Maria: We'll see you next time.
34:53
Justin: Until then, take a breath, put your phone down for a minute, and remember you can text them back later.