Latest / Overstimulated Moms Pod / Why Real Relationships Matter in Therapy and Mom Life with Therapist Elena Rodgers
Transcript
- April Hankins: Welcome to the Overstimulated Moms Pod. I'm April Hankins, a licensed therapist on a mission to help you develop secure attachment with yourself, as I do the same. As we do that, our kids can develop secure attachment to themselves as well and with us. Join us as we discuss all things, science and spirit, on a journey together as we discover the magic of the intuition inside of us Hello, hello, over Simulated Mom's Pod. I've got my friend and fellow therapist and fellow mom Elena Rogers here with us. And Elena Rodgers: Yeah. April Hankins: she is gonna be such a treat to hang out with us. I just want to share a little bit how I met her. so I hosted Mom's Night this past April, and Elena was in a fellow therapist group in the Akron area, and she reached out and said she was gonna be becoming a mom and she she wanted to attend, and so She came to this event so lovely, super pregnant, and I was so excited to have a pregnant mom there, just around lots of other moms. And since then we've been able to connect through hanging out, doing the overstimulated moms club together. so I definitely wanted to have her on so she could talk about like her therapy models, what it's been like transitioning postpartum. and her specialties are relid r relational and trauma-informed approaches. a lot for trauma and anxiety, which hello all of us. so Elena, welcome. I'm so glad you're here. Elena Rodgers: Yeah, no, thank you for having me. What an intro. April Hankins: Yeah. And we were just talking about your lovely cat in the background, Louie. So everyone, if you're watching Elena Rodgers: Hello. April Hankins: on video, you do get to see an adorable cat. So fun. All right. Well, tell us a little bit maybe more about like your approach when it comes to therapy. It sounds like relational is really important to you. Like I feel like that's a word that we hear and we kind of get a sense of what that means, and then also trauma informed. How would you describe how you like to show up as a therapist for your clients? Elena Rodgers: Yeah, absolutely. So I started in home family counseling. and so I would be with these families sometimes six hours a week. April Hankins: Hmm. Elena Rodgers: and so we really developed really strong relationships and that's how I started. And I didn't always have the word to say like I feel like I'm a a relational therapist or I have that approach. But I had developed that since the beginning. And so in the therapy room, especially when I'm working with folks Dealing with a number of things, but I primarily see folks who are dealing with anxiety or healing from trauma. And Trust is a huge deal and we know that the best outcome no matter what modality a therapist is using, their experience, whatever, is the relationship with the client and the therapist. And April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: when folks already feel unsafe inside themselves, it's really important to feel safe in the therapy room with their therapist. so I rely really heavily on building a solid foundation. of trust and showing up as a person. I don't want to show up April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: and be like, I have the degree and I know the things. that's true. But it doesn't really matter when I don't know the expert in someone else's life. And so I want to partner with April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: them in that way. So April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: I just really in in that space try to show up as me and work to build a partnership and how can we work together to meet goals. April Hankins: Yeah. Mm. That reminds me of what my somatic coach who like I'm always quoting on the podcast and to you, Anne Odom says, is like, me being a good mom is be be me being me. And like what I hear you saying is you being a good therapist is you showing up as Elena. And I feel like when we're first in the field we at least my experience, I won't speak for all therapists, I could feel like I was performing as a therapist. Like this is how I thought a therapist dressed or talked or acted. And actually it's through like becoming more human that I have seen that relationship can build so much more quickly and effectively. Elena Rodgers: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I I think that whether people are always able to understand it cognitively, we have a sense when we're in front of someone if they're not being real. April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: and that just feels really uneasy in the space April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: where I'm trying to create a lot of safety and comfort, I just I wanna show up and be real. April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: And a lot of the folks that come to me they're anxious about their relationships or previous relationships have been really hurtful or unsafe or damaging, dangerous. And so April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: I want to create a space in the therapy room where we can heal from relationship wounds in a safe kind of contained space, whether that be the 53-minute session or it literally really be the room or it be the telehealth platform. we get to practice this here. and then hopefully folks can use those same skills and tools outside of the therapy room where they practiced it kind of in a safer space. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Yeah, especially, you know, I remember working in community mental health where there's just significant levels of trauma. And I remember one time in supervision, I I said to my supervisor, like, I feel like I'm not like doing enough to help this person. And she was like, You need to understand like her history and background to have someone who's showing up for her on time every week, not randomly canceling appointments, like that is so healing. Even just that in and of itself. being that consistent foundation. And that really helped me see like I'm not taking into account all the times maybe before that she had someone who said they were gonna show up and they didn't. And I can stay true to my word and that can build that sense of trust in our relationship and help increase that sense of secure attachment. So like even on all these like little things that we might not even count or track, but our clients may be tracking, like, April showed up two minutes late. Like I wonder what that means. And so I remember I had a client call me out on that one time in community mental health. She said, I noticed you're always like two to three minutes late. And I realized, you know what, you're right. I do always stop and make a cup of tea before I see you. I'm sorry. I won't do that anymore. And And since then, that has helped me so much to make sure like I'm on time. And if I'm a minute or too late, I always apologize because that client may be a client who's tracking. They may not be, but I do know if they are, that is like a message they can internalize where they may feel like it's about them. But in reality, it's just like my error has nothing to do with them. But I feel like that level of attunement is so healing to people that have felt neglected and unseen, which I'm sure you see all the time. This like emotional neglect. Elena Rodgers: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: and the way you're showing up, it sounds like, is giving them the opposite experience of that. Like if you have felt this emotional neglect, like I am so gonna show up for you and your emotions in this moment and in this space. Elena Rodgers: Mm-hmm. And and that includes taking accountability for things that maybe it's two minutes you're two minutes late. Or maybe you made a bad joke and it didn't land. Or you had to cancel because you were sick. Like They're neutral things that y having the opportunity to explain that in a relationship and have like a rupture, if you will, or kind of some April Hankins: Okay. Elena Rodgers: friction in a relationship, and then being able to repair it and model that in the safe therapeutic dynamic can be really valuable. April Hankins: Yeah. I like how you named it as neutral because when we're bringing in a history of trauma, it doesn't feel neutral, right? It can feel very charged, but the reality is it is actually neutral. And so if our clients not experiencing it as that though it gives us an opportunity to understand them better, right? it's all data to add to the relationship and understanding this beautiful being in front of us who's coming with certain wounds and understanding how we're kind of pe perpetuating them, of course unintentionally. Elena Rodgers: No. April Hankins: so I know that a lot of therapists sometimes they approach therapy from a model that they found helpful as a client. So I'm curious, would you say like you've been in therapy situations as a client where the therapist was using more of a relational approach and that inspired you to go in that direction? Elena Rodgers: Yeah. I think that in my own therapeutic experiences, I've had therapists that showed up in a seemingly authentic way, which felt like I could connect better. Like sometimes I'd have a therapist that would cuss or, you know, there would be A little bit of professional messiness, whether it be like they'd get a phone call and it's, their kids' school or something like it just felt it felt real and even those moments where I was like, dang it, I was kinda in the middle of something, you got that phone call April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: they were able to be be really re real and like apologize. Be like, you know what, I'm so sorry, but I've got, you know, this thing going on. And being able to just see see the realness is helpful. And then I've seen I've been with providers, not therapists, but other providers that are just very almost so professional that it feels performative where I'm like, I April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: I don't I that actually makes me uncomfortable. I feel I feel nervous being in your presence because this feels inauthentic. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because they're feeling nervous, likely, right? So like that's where that performance is coming from and you're like feeling that energy from them. Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: Yeah. And so there's been so many times as a a patient or a client, where I'm in front of a professional and I I walk away from that experience and I'm like either recognizing that I do that and that I want to stop doing that. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: or or affirming kind of how I've shown up. Because April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: over the course of being a licensed therapist I've definitely evolved and changed and continue to. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Same yeah. Elena Rodgers: Where it's just like, I need to adjust that or I wanna change that, or actually I wanna April Hankins: Mm. Yeah. Elena Rodgers: lean in on this one. April Hankins: All right. So tell us a little bit about how postpartum has been going for you as a therapist. I'm sure other moms wonder like what is it like for this therapist and what's what's been supportive? Elena Rodgers: Yeah. So when I first found out I was pregnant, I you included, actually, any therapist that was also a mom, I would always sneak in like the questions like, how do you do it? Because I was like already April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: felt like a different person being pregnant. And April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: then like being a therapist, you're showing up in a very emotionally demanding way. And so I was like, my god, how do you do it? Am I gonna be okay? Can this be possible? April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: I totally underestimated the shift identity wise having a child. but it has been It's been very good and I've been very blessed with supports. So we are about five months out and it has been super helpful. I've been very intentional with my extra I'm not working, but I'm definitely caring for a child, so the my activities have shifted. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: being in front of other moms has been really important. And so whether they be other therapist moms or I've been blessed with a little crew of people in my family that are having babies right now, just April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: to have community. And there are times like the overstimulated mom's club showing up for coffee eight weeks postpartum and like being like, my god, do you guys ever like your husbands again? Like it didn't feel like I was ever gonna like him again. and then April Hankins: Totally. Everyone gets it, who's listening. Elena Rodgers: Well yeah, 'cause you were you were sharing stories and other women were sharing stories and it was almost like you saw inside my home, but you didn't. It was just that there April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: was these shared experiences that we could all really connect on. And that's been super helpful because although you are you can be surrounded by your baby and your husband and your family, it can feel really isolating. my husband and I are going through the same thing. Like we both had our first child, but April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: two very different journeys at the same time. Just so April Hankins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: other moms. April Hankins: Yes, there's so much power in being around other women and then I think especially in motherhood, being around other moms, it sounds like you're saying hearing stories that you can see yourself in and resonate with feel very healing to you. Like being able to know like I'm not alone. Also like this isn't forever. And also maybe there's not something wrong with me because I'm dealing with this, because these moms can relate too. And when we're Elena Rodgers: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: isolated, it's so easy to go to that shame place of like, my husband and I are fighting so much like there's something wrong with me, or my gosh, my baby won't stop crying, like there's something wrong with me. But having those loving witnesses can totally transform that shame. And you put yourself in that situation. Like I am so impressed that you came to this mom's night. not really knowing any other women that would be there, but you showed Elena Rodgers: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: up. you put yourself in the way of I'm gonna be a mom, I want to have support, and I'm gonna put myself out there to make it happen. Same with the overstimulated moms club. And so And I hear all the time from clients, as I'm sure you do, that they want connection, that they want social friendships, but it's so hard for them to figure out like where. And also, like, even if they have something like, I've kept my eye on this book club, I feel too nervous and anxious to go. How would you encourage maybe the mom who's listening who's had her eye maybe on that mom's group, but feels just like so nervous about belonging and fitting in and what to say and how to show up? How would you encourage her? Elena Rodgers: Mm. I guess I don't I don't have very profound words. I think that it would just be like having being brave and courageous to try to show up and like brave and courageous for yourself to be able to to show up. it can be kind of intimidating to be in front of a group of folks that you're not very familiar with, you don't know if you're gonna fit in with. And I think I've always walked into social scenarios and being a therapist helps with us, being curious. Like if I don't know what April Hankins: Mm, mm. Elena Rodgers: to say, I can always ask questions and I can start a conversation and we can talk and see where that goes. and April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: if it doesn't go well, it's not a great fit, you know, the people aren't your kind of people, there's gonna be another group, there's gonna be another activity, and you know, at the end of the day, no one no one's really thinking about how I showed up at the mom's night back in April and how maybe I said April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: something goofy or I stumbled over my words or what no one's worried about that except for me. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: I try to put that into perspective too. And like we are our own main characters in all of our stories and you April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: are probably not as worried about the goofiness that you showed up doing. Like you are April Hankins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Our own main character and then also like typically our own worst inner critic, which like isn't a great combo, right? And so Elena Rodgers: Right. April Hankins: we can tend to bring that with us into social situations. And then like when there is enough safety, it can be so helpful to like check in with something if someone if we notice like we're ruminating or looping about something, like, I like keep telling Brenee's brown line, I keep telling myself the story that blank, is that true? Where are you at with this? That can also be like a good way to help reduce some of that shame when you're able to hear from someone like, my goodness, no, that's not how I experienced it at all. Or like, yeah, it was a little bit of that helped me understand. It can actually bring us closer instead of letting that inner critic create more distance in possible relationships that can be so healing. Elena Rodgers: Totally, totally. And that's the same way that like it can show up in the the therapy room too when there's any kind of rupture, whether there's rupture in ourselves and how we feel like we showed up or there's rupture in a relationship, to be able to like talk with the other person or talk to someone else who is there and try to see it differently or repair it in some kind of way. really helpful. April Hankins: Yeah, I know. My ego never likes it. I like can tell every time I'm thinking about like asking a client for feedback, I'm like, ego, it is okay. Like we need to create space for them. Even if they're gonna tell me that they didn't like someone, that's all a part of secure attachment, helping them feel safe seen and sued. The my ego's like, no, just like let's skip that part. So it is like I exactly Elena Rodgers: Yeah, April Hankins: like, just give me all the praise. But I've noticed when I can help my ego chill and actually create space for that with clients, so much magic is actually able to happen because so often they haven't had relationships where it's safe to do that before. Elena Rodgers: Yeah, absolutely. April Hankins: How is that for you when you're like s soliciting feedback from clients and helping your ego take a deep breath? Elena Rodgers: Yeah, I was trained to ask for feedback. Like that was my graduate training was routinely in every session to ask for feedback. April Hankins: okay. Every session, yeah. Elena Rodgers: Yeah. I I don't ask every session any longer, but especially in the beginning I ask more, and as it seems appropriate, I I bring it up. And I've always looked at it as like feeling grateful. Like I April Hankins: Hm. Elena Rodgers: feel like I've been very grateful that clients are brave enough to say you're always I I frequently am three minutes late to session. And some people have been like, you know, I really don't appreciate that you're three minutes late to session. Or I wasn't happy that you canceled on me last week. And April Hankins: Mm, mm, mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: or, you know, actually I I think I'd like a different approach in the therapy room than than what's happening right now. And it I guess I've always been really just open been curious and been grateful for that because there hasn't been any feedback that I've received that hasn't been helpful. it's always been helpful April Hankins: Hm. Elena Rodgers: not just for that client, but then also reflecting on my other client experiences. April Hankins: Hmm. I love that the idea of gratitude, that it's less like personalized because you're able to see like whatever they're sharing, it ultimately is helpful for me as an individual, for them as a client and for our therapeutic relationship. Elena Rodgers: Yeah. Well and and I'll share with them too. like I give clients lots of feedback. Like this can April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: be, to a certain extent, a parallel process. And April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: so as much as I'm giving them feedback on the things that they're bringing to the therapy room, if I'm bringing stuff to the therapy room that they wanna comment on and they have feedback, like I'm at least open to it. April Hankins: Yeah. Good. It sounds like you're saying you're not a therapist who like is just nodding throughout session and saying, Mm-hmm, mm-hmm that you're bringing Yeah. Yeah, talk about that because I think people have had experiences in therapy where it is just like they were like, you know, I've heard clients say like, they the therapist was like really nice and they listened, but they seem to like kind of just validate me the whole time and I'm maybe looking for some more support or direct feedback. How Do you notice you show up in that way as a clinician? Elena Rodgers: Yeah, so I think I I'm always personally forward, especially after the first session or two. April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: if if we've built enough rapport, I'm not gonna dominate the session by any kinds of means, but like I am a little bit of an obnoxious, loud, talkative kind of person outside the therapy room, and I'm gonna show you April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: a little ounce of that in sessions where I might April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: kind of be like, What are we doing here? is that is that working for you? April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: and and so I'll I'll show up in that way. Yeah. April Hankins: Yeah, I love that. You're again, it ties into what we talked about in the beginning, showing up real and not just as like this kind of blank slate therapist who like has their clipboard out is taking notes and just like nodding along the way. you're forming an actual relationship to the human in front of you and you're letting them actually form a relationship to you, the human in front of them. Yeah. Elena Rodgers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think postpartum two have shown up a lot differently as a therapist as well. I am I am a different person. wholly. Both in the therapy room and outside. Yeah. April Hankins: Yeah, how could you not be? Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: And I think there's a point too where I I think I've gotten a bit more brave as a therapist postpartum where like I may have been really, really gentle and like beaten around the bush for quite some time about some feedback. I no longer April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: and I'm like, listen, we're I'm I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna gently and therapeutically of course April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: With tact, but I'm gonna I'm gonna give you the feedback. I'm gonna s share what I see. And clients April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: get to choose. They can they can pick it up and they can they can receive that feedback or they may not. but April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: I do think that, you know, they're coming they're coming for a reason and I owe them that kind of feedback. And so I've been a April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: a little quicker to give that than just, you know, dancing around it forever and ever and ever. April Hankins: Yeah. I love that example of how becoming a mom has actually shifted some of the ways that you show up as a clinician. Elena Rodgers: Mm. April Hankins: You did a training on AI and clinical work and that is of course such a hot topic. And, you know, as a therapist, it comes up in sessions too, you know, with clients talking about using AI and, you know, I use AI for certain things and because it's so new, it's like as a field It's of course still very new for us too. And so we're still learning how can we help our clients like navigate this in a way that's like mental health enhancing. And I'm just so curious like your reflections on the training that you led and anything you'd like to share about what you're observing with AI, whether it's like clinically or personally, and and maybe how it's impacting like Relationships too, since you're so focused on being relational and relationships. What is that looking like for you? Anything you'd like to share about that realm? Elena Rodgers: yeah. I c I can a little nerd out about this a little bit. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: Well, so personally it has been really intriguing to see the very quick launching of AI and how it is really in everybody's homes now. Like it's not just April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: it is equivalent to Google at this point, practically. and April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: So I've had a really fun time just personally watching its progression, utilizing it myself, and then of course, professionally as a therapist, observing people, noticing trends, both culturally and in society and tech and also someone who sees teens and young adults they're usually the first ones to pick up tech April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: and being able to see its impact as well. so the internet has been a place that has really Provided a lot of psychoeducks mental health, really normalized things, giving people information to resources, and has brought people to therapy. So earlier on in my career, people would be like, Hey, I was Googling or I saw this, and like, could this be me? That transitioned to people Bringing in almost like treatment plans that AI gave them, which traditionally you would create with your therapist. Which we talked ego April Hankins: Mm, mm-hmm. Sure, yeah. Elena Rodgers: a second ago. My ego was hit a little bit. I'm like, I write those. Chat who write. I was like, mm, April Hankins: Yeah, backup chat. Elena Rodgers: let's look at let's be curious. Let's look at this. Let's see what chat came up with today. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: But so I noticed the shift there. and then I also noticed that some clients would talk about late at night talking with AI in place of maybe a crisis line or a April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: friend or family member. And initially when I first started hearing about the clients using this, I didn't necessarily understand all of what large language models really were like like chat GBT I didn't really understand. and getting into my own like I'd ask a lot of questions and then getting into my own research about it I was concerned because There are some safeguards in place, but if we look at big tech, we also need to look April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: at their incentives. They're not necessarily April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: incentivized to create a product that fosters mental health. That's not where the money's at. and so they're April Hankins: Mm, mm, mm, mm. Elena Rodgers: incentivized to keep you on the platform, to keep you engaged. and April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: click data and so April Hankins: Yeah, to keep you dependent on the platform. Elena Rodgers: Right. And so if you're dependent on tech, you're dependent on AI, whether AI, the internet, whatever, a chat bot, it could be anything, like, but it's it's drawing you away from human relationships. And April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: so 2020 we saw a huge we saw a huge like isolation, loneliness epidemic. we saw mental health really suffer. and then and we see that still. So it It feels like it was so far away in yesterday all at the same time because I'm thinking even April Hankins: Right. Elena Rodgers: when I see 20-year-olds, they had April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: 2020, pandemic, isolation, lockdown in your homes, they were 15. When you're fifteen, you should be out April Hankins: Hmm. Elena Rodgers: doing shenanigans with your friends, socializing, playing sports, whatever. They weren't able April Hankins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: to exercise those social skill muscles and develop human relationships. And so they were isolated to technology, which was April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: helpful during a pandemic when we're trying to minimize exposure to COVID-19. We April Hankins: Sure. Elena Rodgers: already got that. And now we have all this tech, and our social skills have really atrophied as a society. and April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: as and we see that even more dramatically with those kids that were developing during this time. April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: and so I see a lot too, of all ages, folks having a really hard time with the uncertainty of social situations. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: So, like, human beings are unpredictable. We could show up and you never know what somebody's gonna say or how they're gonna react or what's gonna happen. AI is can be relatively predictable and it can be very affirming too. It's become a little less because it's trained, but can be very affirming. April Hankins: Yeah. Very. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: And that feels good. if especially for someone who might be lonely or insecure. the internet or AI can be very certain and certainty feels safe and so being able to tolerate the friction of leaving a house and going to a mom's night where you don't know anyone or you know asking someone else like out on a date when you're a young adult or going to an in-person job interview like all of these things are social skills that are so vital that we're just a lot of folks really aren't good at right now. And it causes an immense amount of anxiety. and so even more so the relational part of how I show up in therapy, That feels really important that we're practicing these social skills even in a therapeutic setting with a therapist, where we're able to talk about like I'm nervous showing up in a group, I'm nervous about asking someone else on a date, like I'm nervous about, going somewhere where I might meet someone perspective. April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: it Yeah, I could talk I'm I get jazzed about this because it hits a lot of the April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: nerdy tech side of things, it hits the nerdy therapist relational side of things. And I'm concerned. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: I think that it can be really great to help access resources. It can help you find a therapist. it can help you with April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: skills. but we need to learn how to use it responsibly. And that was one of the really cool things that came up in my training was another therapist had actually taught their clients how to use AI in a responsible way that could actually be super helpful instead of how it can very easily be harmful and isolating, unfortunately. April Hankins: Yeah. I'm curious about that. That would be a really helpful training to go to, because it's just coming up so much, and I feel like it's kind of like how the law is like so behind when it comes to like tech. I feel like so is the field of therapy and counseling when it comes to keeping up with like AI. And so as therapists, it's like we're doing our best, but we need more support and information. So I love that you Elena Rodgers: Yeah. April Hankins: did a training to support therapists in that area because it's so important because it's just so prevalent. prevalent to all of us and to our clients. and I feel like what you're describing, this relational experience that clients can have with you is so helpful when it comes to the social skills. like I've had sessions where I've had a client like pretend that we were on like a coffee meetup and just Elena Rodgers: Mm. April Hankins: like practice what it's like to talk and have dialogue. And I think that can be hop so helpful because clients then get to embody, okay, like I did that in a really safe space. And I got to like practice some of the hiccups with April. And and now maybe I have a little bit more courage to try that in the real world. Or if not, like we can come back and talk about like what are the stuck points there. so I just feel like it's so helpful and powerful to have that real life person in front of you where you can have that back and forth. And also like the therapy room is such a great place to do that because ideally like you have this therapist in front of you who is like this unconditional loving witness. So like if you're pretending to have a coffee date and like you stutter or you totally blank out, like they get it. They're human and they're gonna be with you in that moment. And if we're just continuing to go to AI, like that's the type of experience we're not really going to get. And so a therapy setting can be so helpful for that. Elena Rodgers: Yeah. Yeah. And there's not there there's AI is not you don't have the r the the friction and the repair piece too. Like a if if you tell there have been times where AI makes mistake and I'm like because I can be mean, I don't know. I'm just like, why'd you do that? that was a waste of time. you led me in the wrong direction. And it's just like, April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: you're right, I'm sorry. And we'll move on. April Hankins: Mm, mm. Elena Rodgers: And sometimes it's not that well, many times it's not that smooth in real life relationships. And April Hankins: yeah. Elena Rodgers: and two, like I y you can't just be mean to someone and like expect it to be okay. Like sometimes I'm mean to AI and I don't know why. I'm just like it's a machine. April Hankins: Ha ha Elena Rodgers: But like but yeah, like it you're missing so much of the human connection and it's really it's pseudo connection and I think that it can be April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: really harmful, long term. April Hankins: Yeah. And I know I've shared this quote with you before because I'm quoting it all the time. But like the former surgeon general shared that we have a mental health crisis because we have a social and a spiritual crisis. And I see that so much in the lack of relationships and exactly what you're sharing about putting yourself in the way of being in a mom's group with other moms who share stories like that rel it's relational medicine that you're giving yourself so that you don't feel isolated socially. And in turn that really helps all of our mental health. But when we don't have this relational medicine coming in, it is hard for our mental health to thrive because we are created as social beings, you know, evolving in tribes. So we need these people that have our back, that really know like who we are and how we're doing. And so I just so admire you for making that a priority as you enter this insane season of postpartum, kind of knowing like I need to have other moms around me. I was more isolated when I was a new mom. And so I'm just like cheering for you and celebrating you that you made that happen for yourself. Like you knew I, Elena, deserve time and secure attachment from other moms and I'm gonna make that happen. Yeah. Elena Rodgers: Yes, yes, yeah. April Hankins: Mm. Mm-hmm. So since anxiety is a specialty, naturally that's something that comes up I would say probably with every client, if not 99%, it's just anxiety and modern day life in 2026, it's very common. how do you find like helping clients with anxiety to be effective? I feel like for me, as a newer clinician, I would get too stuck in like the actual thought loops and the content of them and less in the deeper kind of underlying what's contributing to this anxiety and also the body responses. Where is it showing up in your body? How have you kind of evolved maybe even in how you treat anxiety, think about anxiety? What would you like to share? Elena Rodgers: Yeah, so I show up very relationally. I also would psychodynamic probably be where you're like developing insight, and then going April Hankins: Mm, mm. Elena Rodgers: back. So like I I show up a lot in that way too, where a question I'll ask people quite often is like where did you learn that lesson? So like I don't want to I don't want to tell someone that they hurt my feelings because I don't want to upset them. Well, where did you learn the lesson that you don't deserve to take up space in that relationship? April Hankins: Mm, mm. Elena Rodgers: and so And two, I'm really big on attachment theory. And so for folks who aren't aware of attachment theory, it's the big these beginning foundational pieces in the first handful of years of life where we're trying to figure out as little tiny babies and toddlers and little people, are the adults around me safe? Will they show up for me when I am upset? Will they feed me when I'm hungry? Will they comfort me when I'm sad? are they safe? April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: and then our next most intimate relationship is our typically our romantic partners. And so how does that show up too? Now our attachment and some of the attachment lessons that we learn show up in our workplace or with our friends or in other settings. But And sometimes that's an anxious response or an insecure response where it's not safe to share my opinion in a group. It's not safe to go to a a a new place with new people and potentially make a mistake or potentially embarrass myself. That's not safe. And so I do oftentimes go back and explore some of those earlier experiences people have in their lives and see if the things that they're struggling with present day are lessons that they learned historically. So April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: that's been really that that's how I've been helpful in kind of like unearthing the origin story of anxiety. April Hankins: Mm, I like that phrase. Elena Rodgers: But then at a certain point too, and after some time, because we can get lost in that, at a certain point we kinda we just gotta do it. And that's like April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: there's a lot of things that I'll say in the therapy room that I believe wholeheartedly and are evidence based and I could support that, but they don't sound satisfying. And sometimes it's like the unsatisfying answer that could be really helpful is like we have to do the scary thing. April Hankins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: and be brave enough to to do that because that's how we retrain too. We retrain that April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: if I go on enough coffee dates with folks, if I show up in a new group so many times and it goes well, I start April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: learning a new lesson. I start to teach myself through experience that the things that felt unsafe are actually okay and they actually are safe. April Hankins: Totally agree. I think that action and that behavior is so helpful because it gives you that rep in I can do this. Even just today, I usually avoid the gym gym and walk outside because the gym gym is just like the gym and but Elena Rodgers: Right, we're right. April Hankins: I I hired a trainer who gave me a workout plan and she's like a nutritionist and a holistic doctor and so I had a workout plan and she's holding me accountable and so I went and there were people there that I recognized which made me more nervous and self conscious and so I was like leaving space for okay, I get to decide like am I gonna finish it here? Am I gonna go home? And I could tell I was like nervous to take up space, but able then to To do the workout. And so now, because I have that rep, it's gonna be a lot easier when I go back to go into that dreaded gym area because I've already done it. I've already done it with people around me that I know. And it is like when you're ready to rip the band-aid off and do the scary thing, re like the feelings often follow the behavior. And the behavior is what gives us that confidence to do it again. I love that. And unearthing the origin story, such a good phrase. I love that so much. Elena Rodgers: You could totally steal it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love it. April Hankins: I'm I am stealing it. that's so good. yeah. Well, I can tell that you're just like I mean, I know you personally, so I know you're a gem of a human and that you really care about not just your clients, but like the world at large and like the field of counseling. You care so much about like your child and how they're growing up with attachment. You're very like thoughtful and reflective. And we need therapists that are showing up to the therapy room in that brain space, right? And so I just wanna like say thank you for taking care of yourself in that way so that you can show up for your clients who come to you and like are feeling anxious maybe about going to a social event where they don't know anyone and you have that embodied experience of like, I've been there, I've been nervous and I've done it. And I found it to be so helpful. And so like metaphorically, I can hold that space for you and hold your hand through this. Like you're taking those steps on behalf of your clients to some degree so that you can hold space for them to do the same. Elena Rodgers: No, thank you. Yeah. As a therapist has been so helpful to like an important to care for myself and to also do many of the same things I'm asking other people to do. April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: if I'm not well mentally, physically, spiritually, I'm not going to I'm not gonna be a good therapist. April Hankins: Yeah. Talk to me about overstimulation. I know that like this is the overstimulated mom's pod, you've come to the overstimulated moms club. it's Elena Rodgers: Yeah. April Hankins: a very like popular world now. And so like how do you support yourself when you find you're starting to feel overstimulated? Elena Rodgers: Oof. Yeah. April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: So I love the name. back in April when I signed up for the club, I was like, cute name, over simulate mom. I April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: I know what you mean now. Like I feel it in my bone I feel it in every fibre of my being several times a day, multiple times a day. April Hankins: Yes, you are officially in the club. Elena Rodgers: I'm like, One more sound and I'm gonna explode. But April Hankins: Yes. Elena Rodgers: yeah, okay, so how do I support myself? April Hankins: And I just want to highlight, friends, she's a therapist. this is very normal, right? even for therapists, we Elena Rodgers: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: get overstimulated because it's not about knowing. It's not about having a master's degree and like understanding our trauma and coping skills. It's about embodied experiences of creating safety and like we're all learning that over and over again. So moms listening, like, just know like it's not you. There's nothing wrong with you. It's just how our nervous systems respond. And so like we're all learning that together. Elena Rodgers: Yeah. Amen to that. Yeah. And so like, I'll notice like I I notice a lot of trends. So later in the day, I definitely am more sub susceptible to being overstimulated or April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: running out of patience. I I sh I hear myself when I'm talking to my daughter, like, I know waiting is hard, being patient is hard, and like I need to be able to say that to myself too. April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: but So at the end of the day, when I'm tired, when I'm hungry, when I've rushed a lot. So if I've April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: just had a day where I was rushing, whether I needed to or not, maybe I I just feel the pressure. April Hankins: Yes. Yep. Elena Rodgers: I'm a lot more susceptible. So coming at it on the back end and trying to be preventative and aware, like, okay, this is around the time that like I I start to lose my cool. maybe I need to April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: like Ask somebody else to care for her for a moment so I can go take a shower. Or April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: I can go for a walk or I can call someone or I can April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: just have a moment. April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: it doesn't always work out that way. And so like last night, April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: she's crying. The dogs are probably making a noise somewhere that's annoying. April Hankins: Yeah, dogs, yes, dogs. Yep. Yep. Elena Rodgers: the TV's on, the air purifiers are buzzing, I don't know, my husband probably was breathing, and it's just like like too much. And April Hankins: How dare he? Yeah. Elena Rodgers: and she's crying. I'm having a hard time soothing her. And April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: some of the things that I do to soothe her are not just for her. The rocking. April Hankins: Yes. Elena Rodgers: The deep breaths, the shhing sound, all of those things I really try to lean in on and like Yeah, I'm holding her and I'm rocking her and I'm making those noises, but like I'm also really being present with all of that for myself too. Because I know that she is regulating to me, and I'm not going to be successful helping her if I have and not call myself. And so April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: Giving myself grace, all of the things I said about timing and what's been going on that day, but then also while I'm presently trying to regulate her, I'm soaking in all the regulatory efforts myself. We're doing it together, we're co regulating. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Elena Rodgers: Yeah. April Hankins: Okay. I have the visual of you last night with all the simulation around you. Sending you all these great vibes. And I Yeah. It yeah. Elena Rodgers: Yeah, totally. April Hankins: and that like rocking and swaying it can just be so good. And I I like like the compassionate touch, which you know, you're doing if you're holding your baby, it just like, you know, feeling like the heartbeat. And it is just like Coming back to your body and safety cues, right? even like holding your baby, like, we're safe. Like that can be so regulating. the noise, my gosh, the noise is just like so over stimulating. I hear you on that. I know we've talked about dogs. Dogs like take that up another level. So I Elena Rodgers: Yeah. April Hankins: love what you're sharing that it's not only like Sometimes it is like, hey, I really need space. can you hang out with the kids while I go take a shower? Which showers are magic. I love a good shower to help me feel Elena Rodgers: Mm. April Hankins: back in the present moment. getting outside, love that too. Elena Rodgers: Yes. April Hankins: And then sometimes it's not possible. So I love that you're also saying, like, how can we find ways to do it when we actually can't get space? And can we try to in that chaotic moment while we're trying to help our kids feel regulated, how can we come back to ourselves to regulate ourselves? So it's not like one or the other. It's like, okay, I need to come to myself, offer myself support, maybe, you know, even as I am offering my child support too. and so thinking through like what can that look like for different ages, you know, baby, toddler, preschool, you know, older kids. I love your example. I just think like the swaying, the body, it's so helpful. I feel like The less I try to talk myself out of the overstimulation, the more effective I am when I go to more of a body centered approach versus Elena Rodgers: Mm. April Hankins: like getting in my head about like, my goodness, why am overstimulated again? There's something wrong with me, right? Like coming back to like, yeah, this is just information. It's been a lot. How can I lovingly attune to myself now? Elena Rodgers: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and when I speak with clients, like there's not a cognitive coping skill that's gonna help you out when you're already like distressed in your body. Like you can't think yourself away from April Hankins: Mm, okay, you need to say that again because everyone needs to really hear that. Can you say that one Elena Rodgers: Yeah. April Hankins: more time? Elena Rodgers: There's not a cognitive coping skill that will help you when you're distressed in your body. So if you're April Hankins: Okay, but I really wish there was one, right? Because we I feel like we all want that. But I but it's so true, right? Elena Rodgers: be great yeah it's it's like when you're it's like when you're really anxious or you're stressed out about something and someone tells you to calm down and you just want to like no that's not gonna that doesn't work April Hankins: yeah, no thanks. Yeah. Uh-huh. Or yeah, when you're depressed and somebody is like, well, just get up and do it. It's like you you're not understanding at all like what's going on inside of me right now. If it was that easy, I would calm down or I would just get up and do it. Like there's something else here. Elena Rodgers: Right. And so being able to like to tap into that body response has been really helpful. And so whether it's I'm helping soothe my child or I'm helping soothe myself or we're doing it together. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: going outside, walks have been like beautiful. walks where April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Elena Rodgers: like my thighs are burning a little bit. I might like intentionally do the hills April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: in the neighborhood because I need to feel something I need to be grounded. April Hankins: Great. Yeah. Mm. Elena Rodgers: Or water. So like I love taking a shower if I have the opportunity. Giving her a bath. going April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: outside. Like all of those things have been really beautiful when it's just like it. That's the like restless. Just I want to crawl out of my skin. Like things are just a lot right now or whatever. I can't I can't talk April Hankins: Yeah, mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: it out. I can't think it out. I gotta move my body, I gotta breathe it out, I gotta do something April Hankins: Mm. Elena Rodgers: s sensory-wise. April Hankins: Yeah, I love that. And I think about w in modern life we're very disconnected from being outside and water. And so like bringing those elements in can feel so nourishing to us. And I always just like to add a little tidbit about like sometimes even being in a therapy space, it kind of can perpetuate the like talking in loops and going around Elena Rodgers: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: and around. And so it can be helpful if we kind of pause and then instead come to the body and try to go a little bit deeper than the same like obstacles that we're facing week to week and actually like let's see what's going on kind of beneath the service that's maybe kind of driving some these concerns or issues and attachment theory is a great way to go about that. So I love that you highlighted that. I mean I think we should do a whole episode on attachment theory sometime because that would be so lovely. Elena Rodgers: I love attachment theory. April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: when someone the so I just talked about how the internet and tech can be not our best friend, but attachment theory like got pretty popular on the internet for a second pretty recently. And people would come in April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: and they're like, Alina, I think it's like my attachment and I was like, Don't even get me started, like let me tell you about it and we'll talk about it. Like let's figure it out together. April Hankins: Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Totally. yeah. All the terms, all the quizzes for sure. Yeah. and I think it's me, like, you know, you're a mom, like, and then we start to think through like, how's that showing up like in motherhood? And like I love my somatico too. Again, I'm always quoting like just like I Elena Rodgers: Yeah. April Hankins: think about that's my role as a therapist and even as like a friend to you or a colleague, like, how can I show up in a way that I feel safe, seen, and soothed, so I can like model that for the people around me. And then our relationship can feel more safe, seen, and soothed. And then so like my client can start to treat themselves that way. Instead of, I think so much of our conditioning has been to show up for ourselves in a way that causes us to feel unsafe, unseen, unsoothed. kind of like what you were talking about with that negative cognition earlier for like clients as an example of like I've been conditioned to stay small or not use my voice, which I would say is like the number one issue. I see in so many of the moms that I work with, just because of so many, you know, experiences that we can all relate to. And so I love that even the way that you show up as a therapist is using your voice, right? Like you actually are taking up space as a therapist. You are practicing secure attachment and not just like sitting back and nodding and taking notes, but like offering feedback, offering not being perfect by knowing you show up three minutes late a lot of the time and you're Elena Rodgers: Mm-hmm. April Hankins: willing to take accountability for that and make it part of the relational dynamic. so please just know all that to say, I admire you so much. I feel lucky that we get to be friends and colleagues. I feel so like thankful that the timing of your birth just happened to coincide so Elena Rodgers: Yeah. April Hankins: well with all my new mom's offerings. Like I just I feel like wow, how lucky am I? So thank you for Putting yourself in there and showing up not knowing anyone, just kudos to you, Alina. Elena Rodgers: my gosh, yeah, no. I it's been an honor and I'm really glad. It's been very serendipitous timing, if I will. April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: and it it it's been it's been wonderful 'cause I think that there's so much talk about. Like, we need a village. And it's like okay, but like are there spaces to find your village? Like I feel like Right, especially as like working professionals, it April Hankins: Yeah, where is the village? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: Balancing parenthood and the village, if you will. Like I feel like we're supposed to just like get back in the grind and like work. but and like parenthood's in the margin. but honestly I April Hankins: Yeah. Elena Rodgers: feel like family and relationships and the village is the point and like the work and all the other stuff, that's in the margin. So yeah, it's been great to have that. April Hankins: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Mm. my gosh. I love that. And I love just hearing that. It's such a good reminder that that is the point, really. Like the relationships. That is the point of like everything. Like work is there and work will be there and it aligns with our values. And like you and I are lucky that we get to work in fields that we care so much about. And also like it's the relationships that really matter, family, friends, colleagues, of course, clients too, but also that is a professional relationship. And so it's we need to have like personal relationships outside of the professional setting. share about your practice, about anything you'd like people to know about your practice and what's happening now. And if you'd like to give a little hint of like what you would love long term, feel free to share that too. Elena Rodgers: Totally. well. I opened up a place called New Leaf Psych last summer. It's been wild because just a couple months later I found out I was pregnant. Wild. I was like, I just I have a business baby and now I'm about to have a real on it. What do I do? April Hankins: yes, wild. Elena Rodgers: but yes, so New Leaf's like the it was just me. The long-term goal is to have some sort of group practice. April Hankins: Very cool. Elena Rodgers: while I am helping a little one grow. I don't know how quickly the business will grow, but we will see. but April Hankins: Mm. Sure. Elena Rodgers: At New Leaf Psych it is me and another clinician. His name is Miles and he is actu he utilizes EMDR in his work, which is really neat. but we both April Hankins: Very cool. Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: really focus on helping support both teens and adults, thirteen and up, with anxiety and healing from trauma. Miles takes a pretty cool approach where he does really great work with LGBT QI plus population. and he's April Hankins: Come on. Elena Rodgers: also a funeral director turned social worker. So yeah, April Hankins: okay. That's such great experience. Elena Rodgers: so he does really great work with grief and traumatic grief. and April Hankins: Yeah. Mmm, it's so important. Elena Rodgers: And so yeah, it's the two of us rocking and rolling, doing what we can with our our clients. we both have availability presently in the evenings and on Saturday mornings. and we April Hankins: Okay. Elena Rodgers: are an insurance-based practice, so we do accept a number of insurances for folks who want to use their benefits. April Hankins: Great. Yes. Okay. evening Saturday availability is wonderful. And then the fact that you see teens thirteen and up is huge. Many clinicians don't, so that's great. Like we need lots of quality teen adolescent therapists, so that's wonderful. and it's virtual throughout Ohio, right? Elena Rodgers: Yes, ma'am. Yep. We are virtual presently, so for the foreseeable future. April Hankins: Okay, okay. Yay, okay, and what's the URL? Remind me. Elena Rodgers: Yeah, newleafpsyc dot org. So that's where you can find us. We've got lots of info about, we've got bios for each of us. We have a place where you can request an appointment if that is something that you are curious about. and we also offer consultation calls, free 15-minute consultation calls. So, speaking about the relationship, the consultation calls April Hankins: Great. Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: a really great place, whether it's the ones we offer, other therapists offer them. This is not unique to us, where you April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: can call them up and you can ask questions, you can give them a general idea. April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: This is What I'm looking for. this is what's worked in previous therapy, this is what hasn't worked, what's your approach? And you can April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: kind of interview each other, see if it'd be a good fit, without committing to that full hour therapy. because sometimes you just know offer up like you're like, I don't this this personality fit is not for me. some like April Hankins: Yeah, you get a vibe. Elena Rodgers: It could be and let me try it out. And so the consultation April Hankins: Mm-hmm. Elena Rodgers: call is a great place for that and to also get any therapy questions answered. April Hankins: Totally. Yeah. I am so glad you hung out with us today, Alina. Thank you so Elena Rodgers: Yes. April Hankins: much for offering your time and your heart and your wisdom. And I just admire you and respect you. And I can't wait to see long term this group practice that you build and also this little human that you're growing. Just so many beautiful things. Elena Rodgers: thanks for inviting me. Yeah, it's been great. April Hankins: Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you for hanging out with me. I hope this conversation gave you an experience of connection and a reminder that you are not alone in what you're navigating. If this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to follow the podcast so you get notified of all the future episodes. You can find more about my therapy offerings and the local overstimulated mom's club at aprilhankinstherapy.com. Until next time. From one overstimulated mom to another, I've got your back.