Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Telling a High Conflict Spouse That You Want a Divorce
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:04): Welcome to us all Your Fault on True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions. Hi, conflict Interactions. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Hi everybody. We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, where we focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In this episode today, we're going to talk about how to tell a high conflict spouse or partner that you want a divorce. Um, and really this could probably be applied, um, across the board in any type of relationship, although divorce is probably the most impactful. But first, a couple of notes. If you have a question about a high conflict situation, send it to podcast high conflict institute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast, where you'll also find the show notes and links, and please give us a rate review and tell your friends, colleagues, or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We are grateful for all of our listeners. Speaker 1 (01:17): All right, bill. So today we're talking about, uh, divorce and telling a high conflict partner or spouse that we want a divorce or we want a separation. And, um, we have a, a question that came in from a, a listener, and it goes like this. I'm concerned about my spouse's emotional reaction due to his fear of abandonment and what he might try to do and hurt me, um, because he will feel that I've hurt him as he's done in the past. Fortunately, we haven't lived together or even lived in the same city for some months. Um, and the children do reside with me full-time, although we don't have a parenting plan in place. He has already started to use the children to get at me when I've requested some space from communicating with him, and he shows very little interest in the children until he can't get what he wants from me. Speaker 1 (02:10): Then suddenly he's insisting on video, calling them every night and saying they should stay with him on the weekends because of his unregulated emotions and extreme behaviors. I'm not sure what he might do when I tell him I've decided to divorce, and I'm not sure how best to deliver that information. Since we live several hours apart, I rarely see him, you know, in person, and I always have the children with me when I do. So, bill, this is a situation that, and a question we've, we've heard countless times and, and I know a lot of people grapple with it, um, because we, we know that and we hear the statistics and read the news stories about, you know, the, the period of of separation being a, a really big time of risk and danger. So I think it puts people on edge and it makes them very uncertain about how to do it. So let's dig into this. What should someone do if their partner doesn't know yet that they want a divorce? And we're gonna talk about how they should tell that person, how you should tell that person and, and how you should prepare and a whole lot of other things. But let's start with, you know, what do you do if that partner doesn't know? Speaker 2 (03:18): Well, I think starting with preparing, and probably the best shortcut for that is to look at the beginning of our book splitting, protecting Yourself while divorcing someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which I co-authored with Randy k Crager. And at the front of that, we have a quick start guide and it really talks about things to do. So you really wanna prepare. So some of the things are, talk it through with a therapist so you've got an idea how they may respond, some things you can say, et cetera. Talk it through with a lawyer so you know what your options are. Again, what to expect, what some of the procedures may be. And also if you have a high conflict partner is think about what's their pattern of behavior. So one high conflict partner disappears when they get bad news. Another high conflict partner tries to physically assault you when they hear bad news. Speaker 2 (04:27): Another may spread rumors about you on the internet when they hear bad news. So probably what's going to happen is an escalation of the kind of thing they've done before. So look back on that and prepare for those possibilities. Uh, so for example, having some money that's set aside, that's not an adjoin account that the other person could clean out so that you have money available, taking pictures of your furniture, writing down bank accounts, doing all of these kinds of things to prepare. So if it's a high conflict person, they're gonna blame you. They're gonna be angry, but don't be surprised if they feel abandoned that they switch back and forth between anger and, uh, pleading with you. Please, please, please, I'll be no, I'll be so nice to you. And some people call that hoovering, it's the suck them back in like a vacuum cleaner. Don't be surprised by that. And a lot of people are surprised by that and, and succumb to that for a while, you know, another week or month, something like that. So, Speaker 1 (05:41): Or year Speaker 2 (05:42): Or year, yes. So think it through, think it through with somebody, like a therapist, a lawyer, a friend before you deliver this news. Now, in this kind of case, they've been, been already physically separate, so you don't have the same potential danger if you've been still living together, but the person could come and find you and hurt you. So we need to talk about some things to say and the setup for when you tell them, Speaker 1 (06:15): Can I go back, bill a about kind of switching back and forth between, um, maybe being somewhat accepting and nice and, and anger and, you know, kind of going back and forth. I, I have also seen where some people are just in complete denial. Like, uh, this isn't, you know, uh, this person's not really going to leave me. They're just upset right now. They're being emotional and, you know, they'll get over it and come back. So it, it's, it's I guess sort of a, a dominating type of attitude. And, um, but I I, I've seen them come into reality a a for a bit and then go back into that denial like, this isn't gonna happen. Have you seen that? Speaker 2 (06:55): Absolutely. In fact, that's the first stage of the grieving process. The five stages, the first stages, denial, then anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. High conflict, people often don't get past anger, so they may start out in denial and then they go to anger and stay angry for years sometimes. So think through how are they going to respond and then think through how you're gonna respond to their response. And like I said, that's where getting consultation helps Speaker 1 (07:31): For sure. And I, I had a, a thought of when you were talking about the list of, of things, you know, you sort of prepare for, you know, in this advent of new technologies, there's so many tracking devices and ways that even though it's not something nefarious that you put a tracking device on someone's car, or maybe in their bag you might have access to their car or your, your spouse might have access to everywhere your car is because of you owned the car together. And so you have to think about all of these things when, when you're planning and preparing to separate is, how do I get that turned off so this person can't track me? Do I have the all sets of keys to my car, to my vehicle? Does my phone have tracking so that this per, you know, my partner or spouse will know where I am at all times? How do I turn that off? So there's so many things you have have to think about that we didn't have to think about back in the day, Speaker 2 (08:26): Right? And with, with the average person, because we talk about high conflict people, high conflict personalities, maybe 10% of the adult population, maybe 20% of divorce cases may be high conflict. These, these things matter and people are really caught by surprise and even finding out there's cameras, surveilling them in their home, things like that. Conversations are being recorded. So all of all of this is significant. And social media, what you put out there, Hey, last Saturday night I was having fun with my friends. Here we are drinking. And then the next week you find out that, that your, your co-parent or partner or spouse has asked for a restraining order, limiting your time with the kids because you're an alcoholic. Well, maybe you're not an alcoholic, but you posted a picture that shows you drinking. Well, the judge is gonna look at that and say, mm, maybe this is a risky thing and it may get totally blown out of proportion. So, or it may be realistic, maybe you do have an alcohol problem, but the thing is that the way what you present to the world is going to be seen by decision makers. Uh, so you want to be careful about that. Speaker 1 (09:49): So the kinda the moral of that story is make yourself boring. Speaker 2 (09:53): Yes, yes. You know, , present yourself as a boring person and people aren't going to use your, uh, evidence in court of being boring, right. Speaker 1 (10:04): . Right. All right, bill, so what, what is a, you know, I, how do you present this? How do you prepare for what you're going to say? Um, and I guess we should kind of wrap into that is where you should say it. You know, is there a, should you do it in at home? Should you do it over the phone? That these are the questions that, that are always on your mind in these situations? Speaker 2 (10:26): Yeah, so there's different levels of risk. Um, if you think you have a high conflict partner, some people find it helps to deliver the news in a therapist's office. You know, uh, I've been seeing this therapist and, and I'd like to meet with you with the therapist and, and, um, here's their name and this and that. And maybe have a meeting with the therapist and then explain, you know, this is really what I need to do, um, it's time, et cetera. Um, so that's, that's one option. Um, being at a friend's house, being at a public place, uh, that's, that's kind of risky because if your, your partner is really going to be angry and explode, they may not care that they're in a public place and may cause a scene that Bo comes back to haunt you as well. In the most extreme cases, what I've recommended and, and I planned it out with clients, is that they consult with a lawyer or hire a lawyer and consulting you just paid by the area. Speaker 2 (11:38): You hire a lawyer, you pay a retrain retainer and they're responsible for your case, the paperwork, hearings and all of that. So consult with or retain a lawyer and plan for papers to start the divorce process to be served on, on the other person who doesn't know this is happening. And also prepare a letter that says it's a difficult decision, but I've come to this decision, I'm not gonna change my mind. It's definite. And I'd like us to do this as peacefully as possible. And here's a list of three mediators that I'd like you to consider, uh, for us to meet with. And my lawyer is the one who's having these papers delivered to you. So if you have questions, you can ask the lawyer or schedule with the mediator and I'll be calling you in a couple days. And, and especially if there's kids involved, you wanna say, I want you to, to see the kids, but I just need a couple days for things to calm down. Speaker 2 (12:45): And then we'll talk on the phone and talk about how you can set up some time with the kids and talk about if you agree to try mediation and did you pick one of the mediators? So you, you communicate that it's peaceful, but you're safe. In other words, you can do this from a location that your partner doesn't know, so they can't come and assault your whatever. You also have the buffer of a lawyer, uh, so that they know there is someone looking out for your interests and that that's the person they can communicate with if as soon as they get the papers. So that's probably the safest way to do it. And since we're talking about high conflict, people should know that, you know, this can be one of the most dangerous times, especially if there's a history of domestic violence. The time of separation is when people get injured and they're thinking, well, I finally decided I'm gonna end all this trouble and I'm just gonna tell him tomorrow before he goes to work. And, and they end up seriously hurt. So think about what's the pattern, if it escalates, what's it gonna look like? And whether you need to be physically safe like that, or at least have somebody with you when you deliver the news so that you're safe, would Speaker 1 (14:10): You ever recommend doing this in the workplace? Speaker 2 (14:13): No, I think that's, I think that's, that's bad. It, it can humiliate the person. I had a client once, he was a bank vice president and I was the lawyer for him, and I knew his, uh, cuz they already started on the divorce process and the lawyer for his wife, I contacted the lawyer for his wife, said, if you have any papers to serve, serve them on me. My client will accept service that way. Well, that lawyer did not do that, even though he knew it. And he had two marshals, uh, show up at the, at the bank where the guy, my client was vice president, totally humiliating and embarrassing him, uh, in front of 20 people. And that that wasn't just telling about the divorce, that was serving papers about specific issues and a hearing, but I, I really don't recommend the workplace. It's, it's not, it's too risky to your own reputation. Um, as well as, and, and the goal isn't to humiliate your partner. The goal is to calmly get divorced if you can. And, and that's a high pressure situation and, and won't be helpful. Speaker 1 (15:23): Yeah, I agree. And I've seen some do this in, in the workplace, but in a very specific way, in a very specific workplace that had security in, in the building and it was done in the person's office. Uh, so it was kind of on their own territory, the high conflict person's territory. So they felt, I think maybe a little more, uh, comfortable or, um, it was their, their domain and they weren't the one, uh, delivering the news. They were receiving the news. So the, their, their spouse chose that location because it was a safe environment and it because it was the partner's, um, office. And that's probably where that person would feel the safest. So I, I, but I, um, I agree, it's, it's probably not, not the best. And um, and if that person is really volatile and, and blows up, you're right, it's going to be embarrassing or it could result in a job loss or something. Speaker 1 (16:18): So, um, I I, I really like the idea of making a phone call from a, a lawyer, your lawyer's office. Uh, that seems to make a lot of sense to me. So, you know, we've kind of talked about yeah, yeah. Doing it at a lawyer's office, but if you don't have an attorney, which we know a significant number of people who get divorced, do not have, um, a, uh, legal representation. And if you have to do this on your own, then do I need to, what? I want to have someone with me if I'm telling my spouse in person. Speaker 2 (16:49): Well, the first thing is you can do what I described earlier without a lawyer, and instead have a friend serve papers with the letter that says, I wanna resolve this peacefully and you're in a hi hidden location. So you can, you can do it that way or do it from a lawyer's office. I think the key is that you're physically safe because they don't know where you are, um, or that you have somebody with you to protect you like a lawyer or a friend. But yeah, so someone could consult with a lawyer or not even have a lawyer file for whatever the state's petition, uh, process is to start a divorce and then have that letter and the divorce papers served by a friend who maybe knows both of you. That's often helpful, kind of an intermediary. The, the thing is to think of these parts, how you say it, that your goal is to have a peaceful divorce, that you have people protecting you and that they, you may or may not disclose where you are when the news gets delivered. Speaker 1 (18:02): And, you know, we're, we're talking about thinking of things in, in, in kind of a worst case scenario. And you know, not all are going to be that, of course, but I think it's good to be prepared. So one of the questions is surrounding whether it's okay to go back home that, that evening, you know, after work, should you stay at your own house? Speaker 2 (18:22): And that totally depends on the reaction. That's why I suggest you have that phone call a couple days later to let things cool down and say, let's, let's, I want you to see the kids. I want to get that started. Do you wanna meet at the house? I'm gonna bring, you know, Fred, you know, our neighbor, so we can just stay home while we're around each other for this beginning kind of difficult time. But I, I would need to know what the other person's mood is. I would need there to have been a phone call before you decide you wanna both go home to the house. Now a lot of people, there's a lot of not high conflict cases where people stay in the house together for several months because it takes a while either to sell the house or for them to afford that there's a, a second residence for one of the parties. So there's a lot of things to consider. Speaker 1 (19:21): Yeah. So what should a person be aware of kind of going forward? You know, we've, we've talked some about if people kind of the high conflict individual will shuffle between denial to rage to um, you know, maybe being, you know, kind of being nice or having wishful thinking that, oh, we're going to get back together. So what do you need to be aware of after you've made this statement or serve the papers? Speaker 2 (19:49): One of the, well, first things and we recommended in the splitting book quick start guide is to keep a record of important incidents. So if threatening things are said or done, you want to keep a record of those, ideally write it down the same day so that four months from now you're in a court hearing of, and it, the thing that comes up is what happened yesterday, what happened at the beginning of the process? And if you have these notes you wrote down that to refresh your memory, that's gonna be more accurate than trying to write it down four months later. So you want a record, there may be be prepared, there may be emergency hearings started by the other person against you. Uh, they're upset, they're angry, so now they're going to claim that you abuse the children and that, uh, you should have no contact with the children for the next few weeks or whatever based on some possibly false allegations. Speaker 2 (20:58): So be prepared, anything that could be used against you, be prepared to explain that. And I suggest to a lot of people, when you go to a lawyer and meet with a lawyer, have a, a one or two page summary of important details about your situation so the lawyer can quickly grasp what's going on, especially if there have been incidents of violence or threats made or incidents of intoxication or other people involved so that you can kind of get the big picture right away. And if you have to have a declaration or affidavit taken to court right away, cuz there's an emergency hearing that you already have the basics for it and a lawyer or yourself can quickly prepare, you know, two or three page, uh, argument for what you see that really occurred. Speaker 1 (21:56): Let's talk for a minute about the, about children that are involved. Should I, should a person tell their children in advance of telling the, the other parent or, you know, when, when do you suggest that you tell your children? Speaker 2 (22:09): This depends so much on the level of conflict in the case. The ideal situation is you tell your partner and then you agree to tell the children together so that the children see you're united, that it's not hateful and, um, and what, what the plan is going to be. And that you can give the children empathy and attention and, and, uh, concern for what they're going through. However, that's maybe good for 20% of cases. Uh, I, I would never suggest that you tell the children first. I think that you need to let the other parent have their re re reaction and then tell the children, um, or as soon as you've told the other parent, possibly tell the children so they're hearing from you before they're hearing from the other parent, but don't look like you're trying to take the children on your side against the other parent. Speaker 2 (23:14): That stuff can backfire. So if you do tell the children on your own separately, don't get very detailed. And the ideal thing with kids when they're told about a divorce is to ask them, what questions do you have? Do you have any questions for me? That's why the ideal is to have both of you together. They can ask questions together, but most of the time it's gonna be separate. You may have the kids with you while the other other person's starting their reactions like the woman that brought the question to us. But you need to give the kids the message that they're gonna be seeing both parents and that you support each other, you support each other's rules in each other's homes, and that they can always come and talk to you. Um, and that you're not going to pry about their relationship with the other parent when they spend time with the other parent. Speaker 2 (24:14): There's two things key, I wanna mention those. Most kids feel that it's their fault. So you need to be prepared to answer that and make clear it's not your fault. This is grown up stuff. We both still love you and that. The second is that kids feel like maybe if they do something, they can get their parents back together. Sometimes kids get sick, they're not even conscious of it as an effort to make the parents both have to take care of them. Now sometimes the, you know, other, other responses or hateful things the child will say to see if they can get you back together. So be prepared for that question. And they may not bring it up, but you can say, I know sometimes kids think that they can get us back together and we're way beyond that point, so don't worry about that. Your job is just to be kids. Speaker 1 (25:07): Mm. That's, uh, valuable. Very valuable. One last thought is whether, uh, a parent should tell the children's school, should I tell the teachers, um, the administration? Speaker 2 (25:19): Ideally you will agree with the other parent on how you'll do this. There's in some high conflict cases, parents have denied the existence of the other parent and just told the school about themselves. And so yeah, I'm Johnny's mom. Um, there's nobody else to list here for pickup or, you know, on the form. Um, and then you find out, no, Johnny's dad very much wants to be involved with the school and he'll be coming around and has equal rights. So I ideally work with the other parent about what you're doing. I think explaining with minimal information that we're going through a hard time or we're gonna be separating. And if you have questions for either of us, feel free to contact us, but either of us can pick up the kids, but nobody else at this time. Or maybe grandma can pick up the kids. We agree on that. Um, eventually they'll be the issue of new boyfriends and girlfriends picking up the kids, but at the start it's mostly just let them know we're handling this peacefully. And just so you know, this may, you may see some changes in Johnny and just to let you know, this is what's happening, but we're not going to involve the school and we're not going to, uh, hate each Speaker 1 (26:40): Other. That's very, very, very good, very helpful. So thank you Bill. And for all of our listeners, I hope that this has been, you know, very valuable information for you. And if you want more information, please check out Bill's book Splitting, protecting Yourself while devoting, divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personalities. Um, and they don't have to have those personality types or, or, you know, have a diagnosis or a label or anything. It's just that the book is full of really helpful information about what to do and what not to do. And, um, I, what, any last thoughts on that bill? Speaker 2 (27:14): Yeah, I just wanna mention that neither the book or everything I have said today is legal advice . Speaker 1 (27:21): Um, there's that disclaimer. Speaker 2 (27:23): What you should do is based on your specific case and we strongly encourage you to get legal advice, even if you just consult with a lawyer for an hour, that's gonna be so much more helpful than flying blind through this very complicated process. Speaker 1 (27:40): Yeah, it gets excellent Bill. And, um, I, I'm pretty, that's repeated throughout the, the splitting book as well. And you know, if you don't have the resources for an attorney, you know, check out any legal aid services in your community there. Uh, many communities have such things, so, and if not, then take a look at this book. I'm sure it's in a lot of libraries. Or you can get a, a, um, digital copy, which is less expensive too. So there's, there's lots of options, but you can always reach out to us at High Conflict Institute as well and we'd like to help. Speaker 2 (28:13): It's also an audio book, so if you're driving around you can listen to it. Speaker 1 (28:19): That's right. Speaker 1 (28:27): So next week, um, we'll have a really special conversation, uh, with a colleague of ours in Israel. Her name is Miha Fine. I'm sure she'll, um, help me pronounce it better. during the episode, she wrote a law for the country of Israel, uh, several years ago that impacts almost all divorcing parents and children and it's significantly impacted out of court settlements. Um, so instead of just bracing to the courts and, and fighting it out in court, uh, she created a special law that that really settled that down, um, impacts families in a profound way. I know you'll really enjoy listening to our conversation with her. Send your questions to podcast high conflict institute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast and tell all your friends about us and we'd be very grateful if you'd leave us a review wherever you listen to our podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing the skills and kindness to yourself and remember to keep yourself boring . So we'll all continue striving together to find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app Laos ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.