Latest / Dishing with Stephanie's Dish / Kat Lieu's third cookbook has just been included by the Wall Street Journal in their Holiday Gift Guide

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Kat Lieu's third cookbook has just been included by the Wall Street Journal in their Holiday Gift Guide · Dishing with Stephanie's Dish

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hi,
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Stephanie Hanson,
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: and you're listening to Dishing with Stephanie's Dish,
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: the podcast where we talk to cookbook authors,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: foodie friends.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: And today we have Kat Lu, and she is the author of 108 Asian Cookies.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And Kat,
• 0:16
  your book stood out right away to me because it has a beautiful
• 0:21
  purple cover,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: and it has this delicious looking
• 0:25
  crinkly green cookie on the cover like the colors are so
• 0:29
  beautiful oh yeah there
• 0:30
  you go um and you have been on substack really a lot like
• 0:37
  substack notes and I've
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: just been really interested not only in the book itself but also in your
• 0:43
  personality and your development as a cookbook author I believe
• 0:47
  this is your second
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: book correct
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it's my third, Stephanie.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is it?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me about the first two.
• 0:54
  Yeah,
• 0:55
  the first two,
• 0:56
  the first one was called Modern Asian Baking at Home.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it did very, very well.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was on Publishers Weekly bestseller for one week.
• 1:05
  The second one,
• 1:05
  not many people know about because most people know me for my
• 1:08
  baking.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: That one's called Modern Asian Kitchen.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like an unloved middle child, but it's actually a great book.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful photography.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: It just didn't get the media attention that I feel it deserved.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the same story over and over again.
• 1:22
  And of course,
• 1:23
  now I am very proud of the third baby,
• 1:26
  which is 108 Asian Cookies.
• 1:28
  It's really on a class of its own,
• 1:31
  even compared to the first two books that I authored.
• 1:35
  Let's talk about that because,
• 1:36
  and I hope I say this right and it's not like offensive.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: You seem very present about your...
• 1:50
  not having had maybe the best experience in the publishing
• 1:53
  world and maybe people
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: not seeing you as the way you wanted to be seen.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate a lot of your posts in that regard,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: like people telling you you're too much,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: you're too loud,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: you're too this,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: you're too that.
• 2:07
  And I find it so refreshing that you just like call that out
• 2:11
  and you're like,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm too much or if I'm not going to promote myself,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: who is going to?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: People get real anxious.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Writers tend to be somewhat introverted.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: They're creators.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's their gift that they're putting out into the world.
• 2:26
  And then,
• 2:26
  you know,
• 2:27
  it's hard to get people to recognize or to ask for the
• 2:29
  attention.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk about that a little bit?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: I always felt that I was told to be good growing up.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Asian-American.
• 2:40
  So in your household,
• 2:41
  you shouldn't talk back to your elders or your grandparents.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: You should be demure.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't make jokes.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't be so loud.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And English is my third language,
• 2:51
  Vietnamese and Cantonese being my first two languages that I
• 2:54
  listened to and spoke
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: in the household.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually grew up in elementary school being very, very shy.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Very shy in middle school as well.
• 3:04
  But I really just found my voice as a doctor of physical
• 3:06
  therapy once I started
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: doing my clinical rotations as a younger adult.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And there I found my voice.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't have a voice as a clinician,
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: your patients and the doctors who work with you won't listen to you.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that potentially can get your patients either saved or killed.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to use your voice.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned that as a physical therapist.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then the cookbook realm.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:33
  And then as someone who had to start marketing herself as a
• 3:37
  cookbook author,
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: then I have to be very visible online.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to show your face.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: You have to share your recipes on Instagram and your videos.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't do that being quiet.
• 3:47
  So sometimes you have to do your voiceovers and then you
• 3:50
  comment back when you have the haters.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then now being someone who has to market her book because,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not on any best cookbook lists.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not on a lot of holiday gift guides.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can't land on today's show.
• 4:04
  So then I have to use my voice and promote myself loudly
• 4:07
  because then people will
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: see that,
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: we have to look at that book.
• 4:11
  There's this author who is not visible enough because people
• 4:14
  are just not sharing
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: their platforms with her.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: But because I've been vocal, now I'm on your podcast.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm on other people's podcasts.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Wall Street Journal finally recognized and put me on a holiday list.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it takes time.
• 4:28
  But if you don't put out your your own effort and if you don't
• 4:31
  show people you
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: don't show up,
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: then no one will show up for you.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: No one will know about the book.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I have to be so loud and visible.
• 4:39
  And are you still are you doing this full time or is this like
• 4:43
  your side hustle?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, I was a physical therapist for 13 years.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I
• 4:49
  started um decided not to renew my license around 2023 i
• 4:54
  believe or 2022 and then
• 4:57
  since 2023 i've been writing full-time for tasting table as a
• 5:01
  freelancer so a
• 5:02
  full-time freelancer i also write for simply recipes sometimes
• 5:05
  all recipes
• 5:06
  parade.com now i started working with eater and king author
• 5:10
  baking so i'm a huge
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: like full-time freelance food writer which is amazing
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Depending on how well this book goes, book four might be in the picture.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I also want to start writing some rom-coms and romantic-y novels too.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: That was always a huge dream of mine.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: right now being a content creator,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: being an influencer,
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: activist,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: and a food writer is my full time.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can you describe what a typical day looks like for you?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Typical day is, I'm also a mother.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I wake up at 6.30 because my son has to go to school by 7.10.
• 5:45
  grab my coffee,
• 5:46
  and then I'm here sitting down by 7.30 in front of my office.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is my office.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So most of my time is actually spent in the office.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I do my six hours of writing with Tasting Table.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I do a lot of stock trading too.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: I set aside,
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  SPEAKER_00: because I'm a freelancer,
• 6:02
  I can set aside time for right now when we're chatting on a
• 6:05
  podcast or if I have to
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: go into a meeting.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I also do some board work as a volunteer for the Variation Foundation.
• 6:13
  And when I'm done with all my writing or I'll take some time
• 6:15
  off around 11.30 a.m.
• 6:17
  and go downstairs to my kitchen and start shooting content for
• 6:20
  my social media.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I like to edit my content and then have it out by 3 p.m.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Pacific time.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And by that time is also when I stop writing as well, 3.30.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the sun comes home, you know, then I have to start writing.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Meal planning for dinners.
• 6:35
  I also make lunch for my mom and my husband because they're
• 6:38
  both at home as well.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:40
  And then but usually around like five,
• 6:42
  530,
• 6:43
  we're done with dinner,
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  six,
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  we're done with dinner.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we plan the rest of the night out.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're just having fun with our son,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: playing video games with him,
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  SPEAKER_00: going to a mall,
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: just relaxing.
• 6:52
  And then I'll just come back to the office late at night and
• 6:55
  just double check what
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: I have to do the next day.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a typical day.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: But when there's a book, now that's different.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Then you're writing the book almost like at ungodly hours.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: But that's for when we have books.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: When you are working on a book, how long does it take you?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Depends on what deadline they give you since...
• 7:18
  From the time you sign your contract to when you have to hand
• 7:21
  in the final
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: manuscript is how much time I get to work on the book.
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  SPEAKER_00: The first book I only got around nine months.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think this one I got almost a year and a few months.
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  SPEAKER_00: So this one I had more time to work on it.
• 7:35
  I actually worked on it during my trip for one week in the
• 7:39
  Philippines,
• 7:40
  which was really cool.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was like working on my manuscript abroad.
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  SPEAKER_00: That was beautiful.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have a whole year to do your marketing.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're still in the marketing phase.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the book was out October 14.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now it's a month later.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm still marketing it.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of an endless cycle until like, okay, give it a year.
• 8:00
  Then you could finally breathe about the book and think about
• 8:02
  the next one.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned that baking is sort of what you're known for now.
• 8:09
  Do you feel like because I'm I have two books that are sort of
• 8:13
  Midwest cabin themed
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm ready to like branch out and do something different.
• 8:18
  But it's hard once you're sort of known for something to go
• 8:21
  into a new lane.
• 8:24
  You mentioned that you feel like the modern Asian cooking book
• 8:27
  is sort of maybe
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: didn't get the attention that it deserved.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think you'll try to you mentioned branching out in other genres,
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: but in terms of cookbooks,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: do you think you'll keep on the baking thread?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I find the most joy doing the baking cookbooks because I love sweets.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: I feel...
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I feel with eating,
• 8:47
  it's very difficult because sometimes you're not always sure
• 8:50
  what your audience
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: likes to eat,
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: but sweets are a little bit more universal.
• 8:54
  And then you can make a lot of the sweets also vegan,
• 8:56
  gluten-free,
• 8:57
  nut-free.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're gonna make a cooking book,
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: then your publisher will demand that there be,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: if it's not a vegan book,
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: there must be meats,
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  And not everyone is eating a meat and I don't always feel great
• 9:11
  about cooking all
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: kinds of meats.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: It brings me more joy to just write cooking books,
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: baking books,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: only because my,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: my audience jibes more with it.
• 9:22
  And it's very hard for me to also promote a cooking book
• 9:26
  because then you'll have
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: to do a lot of cooking presentations.
• 9:29
  Making a cookie and presenting online is much easier than
• 9:33
  making a bowl of pho and
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: presenting it really nicely online because then you have the raw meats,
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: you have the
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: You have all the preparation that you have to do,
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: and it just doesn't present as nicely unless you're a good food stylist,
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: which is one of my weaknesses.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a good food stylist.
• 9:49
  It's interesting to hear you talk about your recipe creation in
• 9:52
  that you're almost
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: coming at it from a creator out,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: versus like, for me, it's the exact opposite.
• 10:00
  Like I'm thinking about,
• 10:01
  you know,
• 10:02
  this beer cheese soup sounds so delicious.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, can I make it?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Can I add wild rice?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Can I, you know, make it my own in some way?
• 10:11
  It's very common for food creators to think about the way that
• 10:14
  creation is going to
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: the way it's going to film,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: the way it's going to be perceived on camera.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: First, when you are that brain, is it harder then to translate that same
• 10:26
  into a book it's different because that would be just when i'm
• 10:31
  creating the content
• 10:33
  so when you're creating the content yes you want to think about
• 10:36
  the final look and
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: how you present it online so if you're filming pho it gets cold fast
• 10:43
  So how do you get it steaming hot while still not getting the
• 10:47
  steam into the camera
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: and you yourself not burning yourself while you're slurping noodles?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a whole different animal.
• 10:56
  My process for developing recipes for my books is actually very
• 11:00
  different and
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: actually starts at the seat.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: where I do exactly what you said, like, would that taste good?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So like for the pho cookie in 108 Asian cookies,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: how do I make a cookie that will taste a little bit like pho
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: But in a cookie form.
• 11:20
  So then you have to research all the ingredients that go
• 11:23
  typically into pho and
• 11:25
  which ones that you can add into a cookie without making it too
• 11:30
  much like a beefy
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: cookie.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like too savory.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Too savory.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a mistake.
• 11:37
  For the first iterations of the cookie,
• 11:39
  it just had too many of the pho flavors.
• 11:41
  But now we came to a happy medium after developing,
• 11:45
  developing and testing the recipes.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And now the pho cookie is actually a huge hit with readers.
• 11:51
  It's really different and it's very much your own and I think
• 11:55
  speaks to sort of you
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: as a creator and as a baker.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you grow up?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: In Montreal, Canada.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was where I was born.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I was only there two years.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then we drove down,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: my dad drove down to Brooklyn,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: where there's,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: that's where I grew up mainly,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Brooklyn,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: New York.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I spent most of my childhood summers,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: like instead of in camp,
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: I went back to Montreal with my grandma and spent my time there.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I love Montreal.
• 12:22
  And there's such an,
• 12:23
  my brother-in-law lives there in the mountains of,
• 12:27
  where is there?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think.
• 12:29
  of the Bolton is the name of the town in the mountains there
• 12:33
  right outside of
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Vermont,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: but in the Montreal side.
• 12:37
  And the Asian markets there and restaurants and culture of the
• 12:42
  food scene is so robust.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: So nice.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: My grandma lived right by the Chinatown.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, we had dim sum for morning breakfasts.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: We had like ramen very early on when I was a kid, like Japanese ramen.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we had the first boba tees or boba tees.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it was great.
• 13:05
  I just was in Paris and about outside of all the great bakeries
• 13:09
  and pastry shops.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: It seemed like there is a real renaissance for Asian soup,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: because everywhere you passed that would be a line out the door.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was usually either for ramen or for pho or some other type of soup.
• 13:24
  There's a huge fascination with Asian flavors,
• 13:27
  culture and,
• 13:29
  you know,
• 13:29
  the food.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that there's less of a fascination for the people.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Which is terrible.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's terrible.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: we are living in a time that is really hard to a stomach,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: but be even understand because I feel like,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:47
  America in general is a country of immigrants and how we've
• 13:50
  come to where we are
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: today.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not quite sure.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't like it,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: but I try to just focus on,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:56
  what I can control in my sphere and putting light and energy
• 13:59
  into the world.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I also feel like when I,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: read about how hard it feels for you to get seen.
• 14:08
  Do you think that's because of some of the idea that this is a
• 14:12
  book that's written
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: by an Asian with Asian cookies?
• 14:15
  Or is it just because it's hard to get seen in a cookbook space
• 14:19
  in general?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because it is a crowded field.
• 14:22
  Because it is a crowded field and I've heard from people who
• 14:26
  say like one,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: when they look at the cover and the title,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: they think it's cheap because it has 108 recipes.
• 14:34
  So they feel like maybe it's just a cheap anthology of like
• 14:38
  crappy recipes,
• 14:40
  but they never just gave it a chance and flipped through the
• 14:42
  book and looked at the
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: stories.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's gorgeous.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:46
  very unique recipes that you cannot find and i refuse to show a
• 14:50
  lot of it on my own
• 14:51
  social media because i feel people should buy the book yeah
• 14:54
  learn the recipes there
• 14:56
  so you won't find a lot of the recipes on my blog either
• 14:59
  modernationbaking.com
• 15:01
  another thing yes is of course you know i'm relatively new in
• 15:04
  the food world so i
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: came out of nowhere in 2020
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: and built a group called Subtle Asian Baking,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also not like,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:13
  the typical conventional Asian look that people expect from
• 15:18
  Asians who are
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: prominent.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So they're expecting K-pop Lisa,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: who,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: maybe if she wrote the book,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: it'd be a big success,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: it'll blow up.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: If Gordon Ramsay wrote the book, I'm sure it would have been amazing.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: there's definitely lots of cookie cookbooks out there and I've seen the
• 15:35
  trajectories of them and they definitely have more success
• 15:39
  where they're featured
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: on a lot of best cookbook lists or featured on national TV morning shows.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: But something as special as this one has just been very silent crickets.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: on the end of Big Food Media.
• 15:53
  It's changing a bit because,
• 15:55
  again,
• 15:55
  suddenly we're on Wall Street Journal.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: That was amazing.
• 15:59
  I have no doubt in my mind that this will end up being a James
• 16:03
  Beard finalist.
• 16:04
  Whatever politics there are that doesn't win an award,
• 16:07
  that is up to them.
• 16:10
  But I do feel that anyone who goes into a bookstore sees this
• 16:14
  book and sees other
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: books and they will definitely choose this one.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was what happened in New York City.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I had one copy in a Barnes and Nobles.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was signing it.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the lady right next to me, she's like, can I just take it?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Can I grab it?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, it's the only one here.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, go ahead.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, it's a
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: She just took it and she bought it.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, this book is a sleeper hit.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel very happy about it.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's maybe less of a sleeper than you think.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like now it is a sleeper.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: I still feel it is a sleeper because it didn't get landed on,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: the New York Times bestselling list.
• 16:52
  It didn't land on Publishers Weekly,
• 16:55
  but it's in a category that's quite hard.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not in our own cookbook category.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's in a nonfiction category.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you're fighting against a book by called Let Thumb, Mel Gibbons.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And she's selling like 15,000.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Mel Robbins.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: She's selling 15,000 copies in a week.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty hard for a cookbook to come back against.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: when we landed on Publishers Weekly in 2022,
• 17:26
  Modern Asian Baking at Home sold over 3,000 copies and it
• 17:31
  landed on the list.
• 17:33
  We're way over there now with 108 Asian cookies,
• 17:36
  but it couldn't land on the list.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're on my list.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're on my radar.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Can we talk about like,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: so this is your job and you talk about like,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to give away my recipes online for free.
• 17:53
  We're in this weird space where we're cultivating like these
• 17:57
  beasts because we want
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: them to ask for the recipe,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that we can engage with them on our social media.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: But then everyone's just like recipe, recipe, recipe, please.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it sort of devalues in some respects that.
• 18:11
  the idea that you have to engage with the creator or pay them
• 18:15
  for their content.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Are you doing like Substack and having paid newsletters?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Have you kind of crossed into that territory yet?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: I do have one of a bestseller on Substack,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: which means you have hundreds of paid subscribers,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: which is amazing.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I do have a lot of premium content that I put under a paywall.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel that creators,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: authors,
• 18:40
  people who offer services online or offer amazing recipes
• 18:44
  online should be paid.
• 18:46
  Because why do I have to work for free and keep pumping out
• 18:50
  free content for you
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: for merely a like or a thank you?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's not enough to sustain my living.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: The cost of groceries is...
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: tremendous to develop a recipe.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: As a food writer, for one recipe, we're paid $300.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: But that only covers...
• 19:10
  some of your groceries that you have to if you have to continue
• 19:13
  to keep testing these recipes.
• 19:15
  Like if you're giving me $300 to test a turkey recipe when a
• 19:19
  turkey costs $100.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:22
  And then you have your butter and then you have your utilities
• 19:26
  that you have to pay for.
• 19:27
  It's just not sustainable if your authors and your recipe
• 19:30
  developers are not paid fairly.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: I sometimes feel and wonder if...
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: We treated it like a business if we just turn off all the free content.
• 19:45
  And like,
• 19:46
  okay,
• 19:46
  maybe I'll only have,
• 19:48
  you know,
• 19:48
  300 people that will pay to follow.
• 19:51
  But maybe I can really devote myself to my craft and those 300
• 19:56
  people and really
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: giving them what they want.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: That I just I find sometimes it's hard to decide,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: do I want to keep being feeding this beast of free content?
• 20:08
  Or do I really want to treat this like the business I think it
• 20:12
  is and say it is?
• 20:13
  And if you want to play in our space,
• 20:16
  you have to pay for that right to do so.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you ever think about that and go back and forth?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Not really, because I have multiple sources of income.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So Substack is just one of them with the premium.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's $7 a month if you're a premium subscriber.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Then I also have my blog,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Modern Nation Baking,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: where all the content is technically free,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: but there's ads from Mediavine.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: So in that sense,
• 20:42
  I'm okay with leaving off a free recipe because it still does
• 20:46
  lead to passive
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: income for me.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: So in that case, you know, then I'm more comfortable.
• 20:53
  But I don't understand how people can sustain having a blog
• 20:58
  that does not have ads.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's very smart.
• 21:01
  I feel like if you want to give yourself out for free like
• 21:04
  that,
• 21:04
  that's on you.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're probably just very, you know, well off to do so.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you should never just keep pumping out free content for free.
• 21:14
  I do think it's good for the listeners to hear about why ads
• 21:17
  are on blogs,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: because they can be annoying.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on the same platform that you are,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Mediavine,
• 21:23
  and they do a good job of managing the type of ads that get
• 21:27
  served up and also the
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: way they're served up on your site.
• 21:31
  So that's been an improvement for me just to get to that status
• 21:34
  where I can be in an ad network.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it is still...
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 21:41
  like this is work like we don't when someone comes and is a
• 21:44
  cleaning lady,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: like we don't expect that they're going to clean our house for free,
• 21:49
  or that they're going to come deliver our packages for free
• 21:53
  like it's really
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: interesting I think,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: how people view creators just feels like the Wild West of free.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 22:01
  they just feel that because they give us visibility and our big
• 22:05
  platforms,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: that they deserve our content for free,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: and our time for free,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: and then we shouldn't complain.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's worse when,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: it's worse when you,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't understand that I when my content goes viral,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: there's also a lot of hate.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So there's just a bunch of things going against us.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: I am quite burned out with providing free content,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: especially exposing my face online.
• 22:31
  So I do love that I can use Substack and use threads to more so
• 22:36
  use my words versus
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: my face and my voice as much.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: You have a lot of beautiful words.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Are there other cookbook authors that you admire?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I admire a few of them.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have both of the big compilation of Julia Child's cookbooks.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have a bunch of cookbooks in the back.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think you see it because of the blur.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love Desi Bakes by Heddle.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Heddle B. I love Breaking Bow by Clarice Lam.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I also love Clarissa Way's Made in Taiwan.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: When you're in Brooklyn, it's such a great food community in Brooklyn.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do you network with people in your sphere?
• 23:32
  And there's so many great makers and people that are doing cool
• 23:36
  food things.
• 23:37
  Whenever I visit,
• 23:38
  because now we've actually moved from Brooklyn to now Renton in
• 23:42
  Seattle area.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I do network with people in Seattle.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's a bunch of great Seattle foodies.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've been trying to,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: do content with like maybe Chef Shota and Chef Kenji Lopez,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: but it just feels very boys club.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes, which is totally fine.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: But when we're back in New York is when I do a lot of branded work.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I've worked with Ajinomoto.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked with Calvin Eng in Bonneys in Brooklyn.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I do feel that if I had stayed in Brooklyn,
• 24:15
  it would have been harder to push out because there's just too
• 24:17
  much talent there.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's just a little bit less competition and talent in Seattle.
• 24:22
  So there's a lot of recognition when someone from Seattle does
• 24:26
  something amazing.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Can you identify,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: outside of the pho cookie,
• 24:30
  three recipes from your book that you feel like are not
• 24:35
  necessarily just your
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: personal favorites,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: but being the most well-received?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, the...
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: The hot chocolate miso cookie people love.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen a lot of people make that.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that one's well received.
• 24:50
  A lot of people have been making the matcha monsters because
• 24:53
  they're huge.
• 24:55
  They're matcha,
• 24:55
  they're full of like ingredients and they're quite easy to
• 24:59
  recreate.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And surprisingly,
• 25:01
  a lot of people are making the lace cookies with the miso
• 25:04
  caramel that tastes just
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: so,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: so amazing.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: So those three have been doing very well.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the final one would be like the black sesame white chocolate,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: which a lot of people have also recreated and loved.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when we look at like food trends,
• 25:18
  I think it was two years ago that miso and sesame were on the
• 25:22
  list and like all
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: these umami bombs.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have so many of those components in each of these cookies.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be like a cookie tray like nobody else's.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think people will make your cookies for holiday regularly?
• 25:36
  or they have already been yeah they have like all month ever
• 25:40
  since the book came
• 25:41
  out october 14th people have been baking non-stop from it and
• 25:44
  i've seen a lot of
• 25:45
  beautiful cookie boxes already very creative people putting
• 25:50
  using a sky flakes
• 25:52
  biscuit box from the philippines to lay their cookies in super
• 25:56
  fun are you in any
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: cookie exchanges
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I am not right now.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've been trying to get people to do one.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: But we did finish one off in New York City at You and Me.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So there were two cookie exchanges during my book tour.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then next Saturday, we're doing this amazing Books in Blue.
• 26:19
  signing where people are trying this new amazing cream stout
• 26:23
  that I collaborated on.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: One of the recipes from the book is being made into a beer.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to do that.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like a beer cookie exchange.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like it.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And are you doing all of your own PR and promoting your own events?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, yes.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: there was a lot of help from the publisher,
• 26:43
  but I think they're now more hands-off because the official
• 26:47
  book tour that they
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: sponsored is over.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: So now the rest that I'm doing right now is on me.
• 26:54
  Ajinomoto did sponsor some money,
• 26:58
  so hopefully we'll be able to go to either Iowa,
• 27:00
  D.C.,
• 27:01
  or...
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or let's see, Denver.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you come to Minneapolis.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I've been there before.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 27:12
  we have such a great community and we have so many people just
• 27:17
  blowing up here in
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: terms of,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Diane Mua is Food and Wines Restaurant of the Year for Diane's Place.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And Yia Vang on the James Beard Award winning list.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's just crazy.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sean Sherman is here with his book that really is blowing up.
• 27:33
  The Midwest feels like it's finally having a moment for a
• 27:36
  change,
• 27:36
  which is nice.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm really impressed by you.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think the book is beautiful.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love how hard you're working the book.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can just feel it coming out of your words when you post about stuff.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I just was like,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 27:52
  I'd like to help her get her book seen by more people because
• 27:56
  cookie books do
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: really well in the Midwest.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: We have Zoe Bakes here.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: We have Sarah Kiefer here.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: who's the cookie maven.
• 28:03
  And we have a lot of people that are very adventurous eaters
• 28:07
  and really will launch
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: themselves into Asian cooking spaces.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to make sure that people know.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you need copies to give to friends, let me know.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Let me know.
• 28:18
  And Sarah Kiefer,
• 28:20
  I'm going to be on a panel with her,
• 28:21
  a cookie panel next week on Cherry Bomb.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it should be great.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah is super great.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: She
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: You can tell her that you met me.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have a TV show and she was on my TV show and we went to film.
• 28:35
  And I didn't realize this,
• 28:37
  but we were in her house and I was like,
• 28:40
  oh,
• 28:40
  this is so cool.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it turns out it's like a set house.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: So she has, they bought the house across the street.
• 28:49
  And the whole like first level in the kitchen is sort of where
• 28:52
  she does all our
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: baking and her work.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then her father-in-law lives in the basement.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: which I just thought that was so clever.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm on the hunt someday for a set house.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's not quite happening yet, but.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: The house next to mine was on sale and I'm like, why didn't I get it?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's double the price.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And now the neighbors are great,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: but you know,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: anytime one of the houses are going to go on sale,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be like,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: I need a set house.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, a set house.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Stephanie told me, gave me this idea.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, say hi to Sarah for us and good luck with the book tour.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's been really fun to talk with you.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Stephanie.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: This was lovely.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations.