Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / Revolutionise Your Gut Health And Brain Health Through Diet with Dr. Emily Leeming

Transcript

Revolutionise Your Gut Health And Brain Health Through Diet with Dr. Emily Leeming · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

0:00
Speaker 1: If aliens were to come down from space, they wouldn't
0:03
Speaker 1: think of us as humans necessarily. They would talk about
0:06
Speaker 1: us as being a hybrid species, because we have as
0:10
Speaker 1: many microbial cells as we have human cells.
0:24
Speaker 2: Doctor Emily Liming, Welcome to the podcast.
0:27
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Great to be here.
0:29
Speaker 2: And so you you're obviously in the UK, but you spent
0:33
Speaker 2: a bit of time over here in Australia. In Melbourne
0:36
Speaker 2: actually where I am. Tell our listeners about that I did.
0:39
Speaker 1: I did my Masters in dietetics at Monash in Melbourne
0:43
Speaker 1: and I was there for two years and absolutely loved
0:46
Speaker 1: it and was very very sad to leave. But I
0:48
Speaker 1: got lured away by the promise of the PhD at
0:51
Speaker 1: King's College, London in the gut microbme and diet. So
0:55
Speaker 1: that's what took me back to the cold, gray weather.
0:59
Speaker 2: Of UK, of old light. It's it's interesting because when
1:05
Speaker 2: you move over here to Melbourne, you're like, oh my god,
1:08
Speaker 2: the weather is and all the locals complain about the weather, right,
1:12
Speaker 2: and then you go back to the UK and you go,
1:15
Speaker 2: this is what ship weather really is.
1:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all about perspective. I think if you're comparing
1:19
Speaker 1: to Sydney.
1:20
Speaker 3: Then you know it is.
1:21
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of change in Melbourne, but in
1:23
Speaker 1: comparison to here in is bami. And yeah, I missed
1:27
Speaker 1: the food and the people, and I've still lots of
1:29
Speaker 1: very good friends you look over there, so yes, yeah.
1:32
Speaker 2: Very cool. So look, as you said, you did a
1:34
Speaker 2: new sorry PhD in looking at the gut at the
1:37
Speaker 2: gut microbiome. Just tell our listeners a little bit about
1:41
Speaker 2: the study. Hey, why did you get interested in it?
1:43
Speaker 2: And what was your PhD thesis on exactly?
1:47
Speaker 1: So I, yes, I got really interested in the gut
1:50
Speaker 1: microbiome years ago from a book that came out by
1:54
Speaker 1: doctor Julia Anders, which was called Guts, And that really
2:00
Speaker 1: my love of science again and again really passionate about
2:04
Speaker 1: this very exciting new area of science and research. Because
2:07
Speaker 1: my first career was actually as a chef. So I
2:11
Speaker 1: did my undergrad nutrition worked as a chef for many years,
2:14
Speaker 1: thinking that's what I wanted to do, work with people
2:16
Speaker 1: who had dietary intolerances or specific darty preferences, and then
2:21
Speaker 1: I read this book and just realized I was then
2:23
Speaker 1: getting very very excited about the science again. When I
2:26
Speaker 1: did my master's and then found this PhD at King's
2:29
Speaker 1: College London that was specifically looking at whole foods and
2:33
Speaker 1: the impact of food on the gut microbiome and health,
2:38
Speaker 1: which was just, you know, the most perfect fit for me.
2:41
Speaker 1: So I did that at King's College London, and then
2:43
Speaker 1: I now still work as a researcher. I'm a research
2:46
Speaker 1: fellow at King's College London where I'm still researching diet
2:50
Speaker 1: and the gut microbiome. And it's just such a fascinating
2:54
Speaker 1: area of research because only twenty years ago we didn't
2:57
Speaker 1: really know much about the gut microbiome. There weren't really
2:59
Speaker 1: many research papers, but we now have this rapid escalation
3:04
Speaker 1: and technology that has now allowed us to have and
3:07
Speaker 1: I think, you know, when I last checked a few
3:09
Speaker 1: months ago, there was about sixty thousand research papers on
3:13
Speaker 1: the gut microbiome and rapidly increasing. So it's fascinating, great
3:18
Speaker 1: area of research.
3:19
Speaker 2: Looking I knew it was a crazily expanding area of research,
3:24
Speaker 2: but I had no idea there was sixty thousand publications
3:27
Speaker 2: on it. Now that's mental. Tell us a little bit
3:31
Speaker 2: about your PhD studies or experiments, what exactly were you're
3:35
Speaker 2: looking at?
3:36
Speaker 1: So I was more looking at, So we have a
3:39
Speaker 1: cohort of twins, which effectively means that we've we've followed
3:44
Speaker 1: them for many years, our adult twins, and then we've
3:47
Speaker 1: collected data from them at different points. So what I
3:50
Speaker 1: was looking at was how can we look at the
3:53
Speaker 1: diet data that we had from them, and how could
3:55
Speaker 1: we look at the microbime and the health data in
3:57
Speaker 1: new ways using what's called copational analysis. So this is
4:01
Speaker 1: basically just using machine learning or kind of you know
4:04
Speaker 1: that those fancy you know, machine techniques to be able
4:08
Speaker 1: to explore Okay, how do we picture someone's dit? Can
4:12
Speaker 1: we look at it in a slightly different way, a
4:14
Speaker 1: different lens to then understand this relationship with the microbiomes.
4:19
Speaker 1: I think we all really recognize how complex the microbiome is,
4:23
Speaker 1: but actually nutrition gets slightly, you know, forgotten of being
4:27
Speaker 1: this equally complex part of this relationship too. We all
4:31
Speaker 1: eat in very different unique ways. Our diet kind of
4:35
Speaker 1: changes day to day. So how can we know apply
4:38
Speaker 1: some of the tools that we have. For example, when
4:40
Speaker 1: we're looking at the microbiome, where we're kind of using
4:42
Speaker 1: this computational analysis, can we apply that in a similar
4:46
Speaker 1: way where we're looking at diet and can that then
4:49
Speaker 1: progress our understanding of that relationship because we're using those
4:54
Speaker 1: techniques in a way that helps us to explain this
4:56
Speaker 1: relationship better.
4:57
Speaker 2: And did you find anything surprising or interesting in the
5:03
Speaker 2: PhD studies that you did.
5:05
Speaker 1: I would say when we looked at plant diversity, we
5:09
Speaker 1: had some really interesting signals around fruit diversity, particularly this
5:14
Speaker 1: is kind of unpublished data as yet, we still need
5:18
Speaker 1: to kind of get that published and out. We had
5:21
Speaker 1: just some really interesting relationships with looking at particularly kind
5:26
Speaker 1: of heart health and kind of metabolic health, and it
5:30
Speaker 1: was really kind of good, just really lots of kind
5:34
Speaker 1: of deep dives into how we're understanding this and how
5:37
Speaker 1: we look at the methods and making sure that we're
5:39
Speaker 1: having a very consistent approach to understanding what we need
5:44
Speaker 1: to know and how can we kind of further our
5:46
Speaker 1: knowledge in this field.
5:47
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about the microbiome and
5:51
Speaker 2: hire develops in an individual. So if we go right back,
5:57
Speaker 2: what are is if you just think of the time
6:00
Speaker 2: line of existence of a personal human being, what starts
6:06
Speaker 2: the ball rolling in terms of the composition of their microbiome?
6:10
Speaker 2: And then if we just kind of go through early
6:13
Speaker 2: life one of the big things that will have an
6:16
Speaker 2: influence on it.
6:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there was a few papers out in the
6:20
Speaker 1: last couple of years that suggested that perhaps your gut microbiome,
6:24
Speaker 1: your first dose of microbes, happens when you're still.
6:26
Speaker 3: In your mother's tummy.
6:28
Speaker 1: That is still kind of slightly refuted, when most of
6:32
Speaker 1: the scientists would say at this point that we don't
6:36
Speaker 1: necessarily think that's necessarily happening. I'm not sure what's happening
6:39
Speaker 1: there yet. And actually what we really have good consensus
6:42
Speaker 1: on is that you get your first dose of microbes
6:45
Speaker 1: when you are born. So if you're born by vaginal canal,
6:48
Speaker 1: your first dose of microbes will be from your mother's
6:52
Speaker 1: vaginal microbime, but also from her gut microbime as well.
6:55
Speaker 3: If you think her childbirth being this kind of.
6:57
Speaker 1: Messy process, there are a lot of different elements mixing around,
7:03
Speaker 1: and that's actually a really great thing for your baby's
7:05
Speaker 1: gut microbime because that means that your baby's getting that
7:08
Speaker 1: dose of microbes from both your gut microbime, which will
7:11
Speaker 1: be kind of, you know, some kind of fecal matter,
7:14
Speaker 1: but also from the vaginal microbime. So that's a very
7:17
Speaker 1: much If you're born.
7:18
Speaker 3: By that's your first dose of microbes.
7:21
Speaker 1: If you're born by c section, it is a slightly
7:23
Speaker 1: different story. So that first introduction, that first dosing and
7:27
Speaker 1: seeding of your gut microbime is actually from the skin
7:31
Speaker 1: microbime of your mother and your father, but also the
7:35
Speaker 1: nurses anyone else the hospital adopters, but also from the
7:40
Speaker 1: hospital environment as well. So we think about if we
7:43
Speaker 1: think about the fact we live in this very microbe
7:46
Speaker 1: rich world, there are microbes that over every surface, so
7:49
Speaker 1: you're picking up also microbes from the hospital environment. So
7:53
Speaker 1: that could mean someone can start life with a very
7:55
Speaker 1: different set of microbes than someone else.
7:58
Speaker 2: Just on that point, who's at the risk of oversharing.
8:02
Speaker 2: I have two kids, the first one who was born
8:06
Speaker 2: with an emergency C section and then the second one
8:11
Speaker 2: who was a v back vagournal birth after cesarean and
8:15
Speaker 2: actually was a home birth in the pool, in a
8:19
Speaker 2: in a little sort of home pull our top massive tub.
8:23
Speaker 2: And when Oscar came about, you know, all all the
8:27
Speaker 2: messiness comes out. And it was really interesting because the
8:31
Speaker 2: lady who was doing the home birth, she said, don't
8:35
Speaker 2: wash them, just leave that stuff to dry on and
8:38
Speaker 2: just leave it there for days, because that, as you say,
8:42
Speaker 2: has a massive influence, doesn't it on the composition of
8:46
Speaker 2: somebody's microbarm right out of the gate.
8:48
Speaker 3: Yeah.
8:48
Speaker 1: I don't know about specific birthing techniques or you know, modes,
8:54
Speaker 1: but I definitely think, you know, with that first dose
8:56
Speaker 1: of microbes that can kind of kick start. And it's
8:58
Speaker 1: not to say that that's a full picture, you know.
9:01
Speaker 1: I think you know, there's many different factors that influence
9:04
Speaker 1: and effect you've got microbiome, but that does mean that
9:07
Speaker 1: obviously you get that first first starting point of one
9:12
Speaker 1: of the many, many different points that you've got microbime
9:14
Speaker 1: is influenced across your lifetime.
9:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting stuff on Meilbourne. So Melbourne, I'm not sure
9:20
Speaker 2: if you're aware of this, but has the highest rate
9:23
Speaker 2: of allergies anywhere in the world and has also got
9:26
Speaker 2: the highest rate of cesarean section berths anywhere in the world,
9:31
Speaker 2: which is just this kind of crazy quirk of Melbourne
9:35
Speaker 2: that there's so many cesarean sections. But that link. What
9:38
Speaker 2: do we know about the these links with that early
9:43
Speaker 2: life exposure and risks to things particularly like asthma and allergies.
9:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, so really it's that first five years of life
9:53
Speaker 1: you've got microbiome is closely developing along.
9:58
Speaker 3: You know.
9:58
Speaker 1: It's that first starting point of we're really kind of
10:01
Speaker 1: forming into something then becomes more like an adult light
10:04
Speaker 1: gut microbiome. What happens is that's also happening very closely
10:08
Speaker 1: in tandem with your immune system.
10:10
Speaker 3: So there are you know.
10:12
Speaker 1: Seventy percent of your immune cells are found in your gut,
10:16
Speaker 1: and there's a very close relationship between your immune system
10:20
Speaker 1: and you've gut microbim You've got microbime effectively helps to.
10:23
Speaker 3: Train your immune system to.
10:26
Speaker 1: Spot and identify, you know, the bad guys that you
10:28
Speaker 1: don't want there, but also to avoid attacking any of
10:32
Speaker 1: the good kind of harmless kind of citizens that you
10:35
Speaker 1: have in your gut, but also kind of cells in
10:37
Speaker 1: your body. You don't want them to attack that either either.
10:40
Speaker 1: So I kind of talk about it, but like you
10:41
Speaker 1: have if you train your guard dog, you want the
10:44
Speaker 1: guard dog not to attack the postman. You want them
10:46
Speaker 1: to attack, you know, the people coming in the burglars.
10:52
Speaker 1: So that's where you've got microbrian plays a very close
10:55
Speaker 1: role with your immune system, and they're very much in
10:58
Speaker 1: tandem throughout your life. So what we say is if
11:00
Speaker 1: you're microbiome, you know, it's that key development period in
11:03
Speaker 1: that first five years of life that's also very important
11:07
Speaker 1: for your immune system and that ongoing relationship. So what
11:10
Speaker 1: we think there is this relationship in terms of if you,
11:14
Speaker 1: for example, have a lot of antibiotics when you are
11:18
Speaker 1: in that kind of period of life, yes, please do
11:21
Speaker 1: take them if they are life saving medication, if they're
11:24
Speaker 1: really necessary. But if if you're having them when they're
11:26
Speaker 1: not necessary and they're kind of excessive use, that can
11:30
Speaker 1: have then a knock on effect on your gut microbiome
11:33
Speaker 1: and its development. And what we see is that you
11:35
Speaker 1: can potentially then be at higher risk of obesity, of
11:40
Speaker 1: autoimmune diseases, relationship with your immune system, with allergies and intolerances,
11:45
Speaker 1: and you know, we think that this is one of
11:47
Speaker 1: the one of the reasons this might be happening is
11:49
Speaker 1: because of the gut microbiomet this key period of life,
11:52
Speaker 1: whether that is related to being c section, whether it
11:55
Speaker 1: is you know, being formula fair rather than breastfed with
11:59
Speaker 1: breast milk can take special components which feed specifically feed
12:04
Speaker 1: the good bacteria well, this kind of excessive.
12:07
Speaker 3: Use of antibiotics.
12:08
Speaker 1: So there's a lot that we still wanting to tease
12:11
Speaker 1: out and understand about this relationship. But that does seem
12:13
Speaker 1: to be this relationship there.
12:15
Speaker 2: And look, your finger will be much more on the
12:17
Speaker 2: pulse in terms of their current research on this. But
12:20
Speaker 2: I remember reading years ago that particularly then the environment
12:25
Speaker 2: that a child is brought up in has a big influence,
12:30
Speaker 2: like how much sanitition. You know, you see these mothers
12:33
Speaker 2: who are just or dads who are just constantly using
12:37
Speaker 2: those those little cleaning wipes and cleaning jails on their
12:42
Speaker 2: babies and just clean, clean, clean, clean clean, and have
12:45
Speaker 2: this super clean environment versus then farm kids or kids
12:49
Speaker 2: who are free range kids who are just brought up
12:52
Speaker 2: and play in the dirt. You know, things like whether
12:55
Speaker 2: or not you have pets exposed to animals, how much
12:59
Speaker 2: what's the race research are the lead as saying about
13:02
Speaker 2: how much all of those things influence the development of
13:06
Speaker 2: the microbio So.
13:08
Speaker 1: That's called the hygiene hypothesis. So at the moment, it's
13:11
Speaker 1: a kind of theory that our way of modern life
13:14
Speaker 1: is effectively having a negative impact on our gut microbime.
13:18
Speaker 1: But we do see this when we see differences. For example,
13:21
Speaker 1: so we see differences in the gut microbime are people
13:24
Speaker 1: who live in the countryside tend to have a more
13:27
Speaker 1: diverse gut microbiome than people who have, you know, an
13:30
Speaker 1: urban environment. So if you think there's air pollution isaally
13:34
Speaker 1: lib in it in the city, what am I doing?
13:37
Speaker 3: You know?
13:37
Speaker 1: And then you've also you know, we're spending a lot
13:39
Speaker 1: of time indoors, so we're not having that interaction with nature.
13:42
Speaker 1: So if you think, we think back to the fact
13:44
Speaker 1: that microbes all around us, soil is particularly dense in microbes,
13:48
Speaker 1: and just not having this interaction with nature as well.
13:51
Speaker 1: We also see a difference of people who have pets.
13:53
Speaker 1: So for example, if you own a dog, you're more
13:56
Speaker 1: likely to have certain types of bacteria, more types of
14:00
Speaker 1: certain bacteria than other people who don't have pets. We're
14:04
Speaker 1: not sure yet there's some kind of signaling about whether
14:07
Speaker 1: your microbiome might be more diverse if you have a
14:10
Speaker 1: pet first if you don't. But we're still trying to
14:13
Speaker 1: understand and tease out that relationship.
14:14
Speaker 3: But I think there'll be more research on that soon.
14:17
Speaker 1: So I think there's there's you know, and I think
14:19
Speaker 1: we really it's really recognizing that, you know, we spend
14:21
Speaker 1: a lot of time indoors, we are sedentry, we are
14:24
Speaker 1: kind of over enthusiastic with our antibacterial spray. I think
14:29
Speaker 1: we've been brought up to think that all bacteria is
14:31
Speaker 1: just bad bacteria.
14:33
Speaker 3: And yes, it's.
14:33
Speaker 1: Really important to have hygiene on surfaces, particularly in kitchens
14:37
Speaker 1: and food prep and things like that, but actually are
14:40
Speaker 1: we overly using those things? And I think, you know,
14:42
Speaker 1: as a study that kind of highlights it's important the
14:45
Speaker 1: relationship with soil. It's really interesting where the participants effectively
14:50
Speaker 1: dipped their hands into soil three times a day for
14:53
Speaker 1: twenty seconds, and they rub their hands in the soil
14:55
Speaker 1: and they're just rinsed it off with water and over
14:58
Speaker 1: course of a couple of weeks got microbiome diversity improved
15:03
Speaker 1: and increased. So this is a signal more diverse gout
15:06
Speaker 1: microbiome is effectively a little more healthy gut microbiome. And
15:10
Speaker 1: that is because the research has thought that that was
15:13
Speaker 1: effectively improving their skin microbiome, which is again another type
15:17
Speaker 1: of microbiome, Lots of different sites in our body, lots
15:20
Speaker 1: of different microbes. And then that was then introducing new
15:23
Speaker 1: microbes into the gut, because if you think how often
15:26
Speaker 1: we're touching things and introducing to our mouths, and you
15:29
Speaker 1: know they'll be constantly This relationship between our environment and
15:33
Speaker 1: ourselves where we're bringing new microbes.
15:36
Speaker 2: In it is a real fascinating area. And I want
15:39
Speaker 2: to come back to the diversity a little bit later on,
15:42
Speaker 2: but just give people a sense what is the leatest
15:46
Speaker 2: thinking about how modifiable your gut microbiome actually is and
15:55
Speaker 2: is it more modifiable when you're younger or is it
15:59
Speaker 2: modi viable all the way throughout your life and to
16:02
Speaker 2: what sort of an extent can you modify it? Like,
16:05
Speaker 2: what do we know about this now currently?
16:07
Speaker 1: So in the first that first five years of life,
16:10
Speaker 1: I mentioned your gut microbime is in rapid flux, so
16:14
Speaker 1: it's rapidly changing and it hasn't kind of settled down
16:17
Speaker 1: and become more stable. We talk about this kind of
16:19
Speaker 1: more adult like microbiome. We do think that actually it's
16:23
Speaker 1: still you know ef ffactively still developing over your teens,
16:26
Speaker 1: but it's just that more stable point. And when I
16:29
Speaker 1: say stable, I just mean that, say you've got a
16:32
Speaker 1: stomach bug, your gut microbime is much more resilient to
16:36
Speaker 1: just not being completely kind of overhauled by this kind
16:39
Speaker 1: of bad bacteria coming in. So it's actually a really
16:42
Speaker 1: great thing. It's very protective to have a stable gut microbiome,
16:45
Speaker 1: but it also means that it's harder to then shift
16:48
Speaker 1: it for the better as well, because it's more resilient
16:51
Speaker 1: to change. What happens is then throughout life, we're still
16:55
Speaker 1: able to shift and change it because it's a living ecosystem,
16:59
Speaker 1: we both think, but almost like this pet in our
17:01
Speaker 1: gut that we're looking after. And what we see from
17:05
Speaker 1: the research is that actually within three days of changing
17:09
Speaker 1: what you're eating, we can see changes in the gut microbiome.
17:12
Speaker 1: So it's you know, there's rapid changes happening very quickly,
17:17
Speaker 1: but it's also making sure that those changes are very
17:19
Speaker 1: consistent in the long term, because it's very much acknowledging
17:24
Speaker 1: that we also need to shift that core stability as
17:27
Speaker 1: well towards a kind of healthier profile. And it's not
17:30
Speaker 1: just that kind of early changes that we see in
17:33
Speaker 1: those first three days. So I very much walk about
17:37
Speaker 1: the gut microbiome as yes, we can change it, but
17:40
Speaker 1: we need to step back and think about it from
17:42
Speaker 1: a perspective of months and years rather than like being
17:45
Speaker 1: super hyper focused on one meal or one day. And
17:49
Speaker 1: one of the biggest ways that we can change it
17:51
Speaker 1: is through diut because what we eat is effectively directly
17:55
Speaker 1: impacting on the gut microbiome, with our gut bacteria living
17:59
Speaker 1: in our large layer intestine.
18:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I again, I'm going to come back to
18:04
Speaker 2: the eating thing. I think that's going to be a
18:06
Speaker 2: huge part of it. But just give people a little
18:09
Speaker 2: bit of a sense of the row nigh of the
18:13
Speaker 2: gut microbiome in health and disease. I mean, I remember
18:18
Speaker 2: reading studies years ago, and again I'm not up on
18:21
Speaker 2: the most current stuff, but looking at people with both
18:24
Speaker 2: obesity and with diabetes had different balances of bacterials and pirmacutes,
18:32
Speaker 2: and there was talk about, you know, I can't remember
18:34
Speaker 2: which one is more energy harvesting, what do we know?
18:38
Speaker 2: And also the whole gut brian microbio to access, and
18:43
Speaker 2: how the composition of your microbiom can affect your mood,
18:47
Speaker 2: and also how psychological stress can affect your microbiome. Give
18:52
Speaker 2: our listeners a bit of a sense of just what
18:55
Speaker 2: we know about this right.
18:57
Speaker 1: Now absolutely, so we know that everybody's got a microbiome
19:01
Speaker 1: that is a unique to them as a fingerprint. But
19:05
Speaker 1: actually what we really see is that, you know, if
19:07
Speaker 1: you've grouped lots of different people together, that people who
19:11
Speaker 1: have a healthy microbiome tend to kind of have you know,
19:14
Speaker 1: we're able to kind of see them as a certain profile,
19:17
Speaker 1: but in comparison to comparing them to someone who has
19:20
Speaker 1: a disease or a condition, have a very different gut microbiome.
19:25
Speaker 3: And this is what we're seeing.
19:26
Speaker 1: We're seeing that if you have anything from depression or
19:30
Speaker 1: Alzheimer's disease or kind of a different condition like type
19:34
Speaker 1: two diabetes, you've got a different gut microbiome than people
19:38
Speaker 1: who don't have those conditions. And generally, when we're talking about,
19:43
Speaker 1: you know, a microbime with people who have an illness
19:46
Speaker 1: or condition tends to be not always a case, but
19:49
Speaker 1: they do tend to be less diverse and less different
19:51
Speaker 1: types of gut microbacteria. Or it could be that they
19:55
Speaker 1: actually have more pro inflammatory types of gut bacteria, which
19:59
Speaker 1: is less so you know, then you potentially having a
20:01
Speaker 1: cascade of these molecules that they produce, being pro inflammatory
20:06
Speaker 1: and having a knock on effect. We also see, for example,
20:10
Speaker 1: in depression, that there are lower levels of what are
20:13
Speaker 1: called short chain fatty acids. Now, these are specifically types
20:18
Speaker 1: of molecules that your gut bacteria produce when they feed
20:22
Speaker 1: on fiber. So I talked about, you know, the gut microbiome.
20:26
Speaker 1: A lot of people say, oh, it really matters, you
20:28
Speaker 1: know what the names of the gut bacteria are, and
20:31
Speaker 1: I say, well, actually it's actually not necessarily who they are,
20:34
Speaker 1: but what they do, their skill set, and what we
20:37
Speaker 1: really focus on is actually these molecules that they produce.
20:40
Speaker 1: So they can produce, youen, up to fifty thousand different
20:43
Speaker 1: types of molecules, but particularly when they feed on fiber,
20:47
Speaker 1: this plant raffage we get from beans, vegetables, fruits and
20:50
Speaker 1: lagomes and whole grains, they can produce these special molecules
20:54
Speaker 1: called short chain fatty acids. And these short chained fatty
20:57
Speaker 1: acids are really important for the health of our guts
21:00
Speaker 1: but also for the health of our brain.
21:02
Speaker 3: And so seeing them.
21:02
Speaker 1: In lower levels in conditions like depression, you know, it's
21:07
Speaker 1: a signal of this potential involvement of our gut microbiome
21:11
Speaker 1: in this gut brain axis. So to talk about the
21:15
Speaker 1: gut brain axis really exciting early early research in this area,
21:21
Speaker 1: and I think it's really a very rapidly progressing field
21:25
Speaker 1: that is just only expanding. A lot of you know,
21:27
Speaker 1: all us microbio and scientists are fascinated by this air
21:30
Speaker 1: of research, and it's only building and growing. I think
21:33
Speaker 1: in the context of how we think about this relationship
21:37
Speaker 1: between the gut and the brain, or particularly the gut
21:39
Speaker 1: microby and the brain, we also need to kind of
21:42
Speaker 1: almost go back to thinking about evolution to really understand
21:46
Speaker 1: how important and significant this might be. Because I think
21:49
Speaker 1: quite a lot of time when I talk about the
21:51
Speaker 1: gut microbiomes signally to the brain, it can seem a
21:53
Speaker 1: bit baffling almost because how can these microbes that we
21:56
Speaker 1: can't even see that live in our guts? You know,
21:58
Speaker 1: it seems almost a bit fan tastical that they signal
22:01
Speaker 1: to our brain. But actually, if we think back to evolution,
22:04
Speaker 1: before humans even existed on this planet, this planet was
22:08
Speaker 1: so microbrich. You know, this was dominated by microbes. So therefore,
22:14
Speaker 1: you know, we have co evolved with these microbes. There's
22:17
Speaker 1: not been any point during evolution, that we haven't had
22:20
Speaker 1: to kind of cohabit with these microbes throughout our entire
22:25
Speaker 1: evolution until you know, up until now, we're still interacting
22:29
Speaker 1: with microbes every single moment of the day. And I
22:32
Speaker 1: think also, you know, I like to say about if
22:34
Speaker 1: aliens were to come down from space, they wouldn't think
22:38
Speaker 1: of us as as humans necessarily, they would talk about
22:41
Speaker 1: us as being a hybrid species because we have as
22:44
Speaker 1: many microbial cells as we have human cells. So I
22:48
Speaker 1: think in that perspective, that really helps us to understand
22:51
Speaker 1: that microbes are involved in every aspect of our brain development.
22:55
Speaker 1: And actually, then you know, that just puts us in
22:58
Speaker 1: that perspective of actually, yes, now on standing that these
23:01
Speaker 1: microbes are signaling to our brain directly through what's called
23:05
Speaker 1: the bagus nerve, which is a long wandering nerve that
23:08
Speaker 1: connects your brain to your gut, and also through these
23:13
Speaker 1: molecules that are produced those short chain fatty acids, but
23:15
Speaker 1: also others through your immune system. So again we're going
23:19
Speaker 1: back to that relationship with your immune system that's you know,
23:23
Speaker 1: sending sending messages and signals to your brain through immune system,
23:26
Speaker 1: but also through kind of hormones and neurotransmitters as well,
23:31
Speaker 1: So you've got microbiome is involved with our brain and
23:34
Speaker 1: it's very it's very it's very exciting area that we're
23:37
Speaker 1: just understanding how this can affect our mood, our cognition,
23:41
Speaker 1: but also our behavior as well.
23:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is for me, it's a fascinating it's like
23:47
Speaker 2: it's a new frontier, a whole new frontier of research.
23:52
Speaker 2: Wom I want to come back to the short chain
23:54
Speaker 2: fatty acids and the links with mood and particularly depression.
24:00
Speaker 2: Is it one specifically, like is it beautaryot or is
24:04
Speaker 2: it all of them but reot acity appropriately it a
24:08
Speaker 2: watch one? Or are they all implicated so that they're
24:12
Speaker 2: all important?
24:13
Speaker 1: And I think generally when we talk about the short
24:16
Speaker 1: chain fatty acids for our brain health, they're also really
24:21
Speaker 1: important for our blood brain barrier. This is really particularly
24:24
Speaker 1: where we get kind of excited about short chain fatty acids,
24:27
Speaker 1: so they're able to cross into the brain signals the brain,
24:29
Speaker 1: but also it's about keeping the health of this blood
24:32
Speaker 1: brain barrier.
24:32
Speaker 3: So your blood brain barrier is.
24:33
Speaker 1: Effectively a protective fortress in casing your brain, and this
24:39
Speaker 1: fortress has gates in it that helps to let healthy
24:43
Speaker 1: molecules through through nutrients through, but it also helps to
24:47
Speaker 1: keep the gates shut against harmful molecules and invaders. So
24:53
Speaker 1: that's where these short chain fattiatids are playing a particular
24:56
Speaker 1: role in whether it's specifically different types of short chain acids,
25:01
Speaker 1: beauty rate is one that we tend to look at
25:03
Speaker 1: the most, but they all have kind of an anti
25:06
Speaker 1: inflammatory profile and kind of a signally in different areas
25:09
Speaker 1: of the body. Even you know, lots of different interesting
25:12
Speaker 1: researcher even around appropriate for example, in terms of helping
25:16
Speaker 1: to kind of ease food cravings and through that kind
25:19
Speaker 1: of signal to the brain. So I think there's a
25:21
Speaker 1: lot more a lot more for us to kind of
25:24
Speaker 1: unpick around, you know, what's happening where I think when
25:29
Speaker 1: we can talk about this era of research, it is
25:32
Speaker 1: in a way still slightly a black box because it's
25:35
Speaker 1: very new and exciting, but some of those relationships are
25:38
Speaker 1: really getting kind of unpicked, and you know, even just
25:41
Speaker 1: like last week, for example, we had an exciting new
25:44
Speaker 1: study around the top down relationship of stress from our
25:49
Speaker 1: brain on the gut bacteria and looking in mice. So mice,
25:53
Speaker 1: of course are not humans. But they can give us
25:56
Speaker 1: that early signals of what that mechanism might be. Again,
25:59
Speaker 1: we have to make sure that's just whether that translates
26:03
Speaker 1: into humans or not. But what they found was that
26:05
Speaker 1: the stress was effectively shutting down specific glands in the gut,
26:11
Speaker 1: and that meant that those glands were not producing a
26:13
Speaker 1: certain type of mucus that your lactobacilli, which these are
26:17
Speaker 1: really kind of good beneficial bacteria like to feed on.
26:20
Speaker 1: And then that was having an impact on how many
26:22
Speaker 1: lacto bosillo the mice had, which then knock on effect
26:26
Speaker 1: on their immune system, meaning they are more likely to
26:29
Speaker 1: be susceptible to infections and getting sick. So, you know,
26:33
Speaker 1: it's really great to have this this research helping us
26:36
Speaker 1: to really do a deep dive into what's happening because
26:40
Speaker 1: a lot of the studies are popular if they're in humans,
26:42
Speaker 1: their population studies where we're looking at patterns rather than
26:46
Speaker 1: necessarily cause and effect, and what we really want is
26:49
Speaker 1: more of these cause.
26:50
Speaker 3: And effect studies in humans.
26:51
Speaker 1: But also that's really helped and supported by having these
26:54
Speaker 1: my studies that show you know, a cause and effect
26:57
Speaker 1: and what that pathway is.
26:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, they give us a pointer on the stuff to
27:01
Speaker 2: study in humans, right, But as you say, we always
27:04
Speaker 2: have to be careful because because we aren't big, nice right.
27:08
Speaker 2: But there's a couple of things I wanted to talk
27:11
Speaker 2: about there that you mentioned. So you talked about the
27:13
Speaker 2: blood brain barrier, but also this this other barrier between
27:18
Speaker 2: our gut and the rest of the body, because I'd
27:22
Speaker 2: say to people, if we think about it, our entire
27:26
Speaker 2: digestive tract is essentially a tube that is external to
27:31
Speaker 2: the body, even though it's inside us, right, And it's
27:34
Speaker 2: the easiest or one of the easiest ways for pathogens
27:37
Speaker 2: to get in, which is why we have stomach acid.
27:39
Speaker 2: And then when we get down into our colon, we've
27:42
Speaker 2: got this mucous membrane and these these villai. So talk
27:47
Speaker 2: to our listeners about what happens. I remember reading a
27:50
Speaker 2: fascinating pier for years ago, and the upshot of it
27:53
Speaker 2: basically is, if you're not getting enough fiber, some of
27:58
Speaker 2: the microbes that would normally feed off fiber essentially turn
28:03
Speaker 2: into cannibals and they start to eat the mucous membrane,
28:06
Speaker 2: which then makes our gut barrier more susceptible to being penetrated.
28:13
Speaker 2: We get that leaky gut syndrome with some people talk
28:15
Speaker 2: about but then you get an immune reaction. So talk
28:19
Speaker 2: to us about why we need to have particularly fiber
28:23
Speaker 2: and this specific types of fiber because everybody hears fiber, fiber, fiber, right,
28:28
Speaker 2: but for me, when you dive down into the gut,
28:32
Speaker 2: that's where the magic happens, right.
28:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, So fiber. I talked about fiber as being a
28:36
Speaker 1: bit like Clark Kent that you know, it's before Lois
28:39
Speaker 1: Lane realized he was Superman.
28:41
Speaker 3: We've had such a kind of you.
28:42
Speaker 1: Know, poor poor fibers has just been kind of sidelined
28:46
Speaker 1: as being something a bit dull and boring and just
28:48
Speaker 1: kind of helps you go to the bathroom.
28:49
Speaker 3: And that's about it.
28:50
Speaker 1: It's actually, you know, it's the closest thing we have
28:53
Speaker 1: to a superfood. It is, you know, so important not
28:57
Speaker 1: just forrog about microbine, but also our whole body. How
29:00
Speaker 1: I mean, if we think about it, in the frame
29:03
Speaker 1: of a can of beans five so five grams of
29:06
Speaker 1: fibers about a third of a can of chippeas that's
29:09
Speaker 1: every five grams of fiber you have is related to
29:12
Speaker 1: a five percent lower risk of depression for every half
29:15
Speaker 1: a can of every half a can of beans that
29:17
Speaker 1: are seven grams of fibers related to a nine percent
29:21
Speaker 1: lower risk of heart disease, six percent lower risk of
29:24
Speaker 1: type two diabetes, and apercent lower risk of chloractal cancer.
29:27
Speaker 3: So fiber is I'm very.
29:29
Speaker 1: Big on fiber, and when it comes to the gut
29:32
Speaker 1: microbime so effectively you know, we have in our name
29:35
Speaker 1: on where we're eating food and our gut, we are
29:38
Speaker 1: not able to fully digest and process fiber on our own,
29:41
Speaker 1: so it passes through your own small intestine where ninety
29:45
Speaker 1: five percent of the foods you eat, the nutrients are
29:48
Speaker 1: absorbed into your lower large intestine and right onto the
29:52
Speaker 1: dining table of your gut bacteria.
29:55
Speaker 3: And your gut bacteria particularly love.
29:57
Speaker 1: To eat fiber, and they feed on this fiber and
30:00
Speaker 1: that helps them to produce those special molecules where you
30:03
Speaker 1: mentioned short chain fatty acids, and it's really this relationship
30:07
Speaker 1: between fiber helping them feed, the helping them grow, helping
30:10
Speaker 1: them flourish, and helping them to produce these special short
30:14
Speaker 1: chain fatti aids and other molecules. Side note, there's that
30:17
Speaker 1: short term fatty acids are really important as well for
30:19
Speaker 1: the health of your gut barrier lining, so that kind
30:22
Speaker 1: of inside wall against the murky matter within that's kind
30:26
Speaker 1: of separating your body. So larn like us, we can
30:29
Speaker 1: pop to the shops, right, we can restock our friage,
30:32
Speaker 1: and if you're feeling hungry, we can go and grab
30:34
Speaker 1: a bad bag a bite to eat for our gut microbes.
30:37
Speaker 1: If they're not getting you know, food that is less
30:40
Speaker 1: rely coming onto their dining table in your large luwer
30:42
Speaker 1: in testine, then yes, they do slightly start to chew furniture,
30:46
Speaker 1: which is effectively.
30:47
Speaker 3: You and your mucus.
30:49
Speaker 1: So this mucus layer effectively acts like a kind of
30:53
Speaker 1: soft pillowy downing was probably more sludgy than that, that
30:58
Speaker 1: lines your gut barrier liner and effectively acts as a
31:02
Speaker 1: barrier against micros the other kind of anything that might
31:06
Speaker 1: potentially be harmful. And it's just very kind of protective
31:09
Speaker 1: kind of lubricant of your gut on your gut barrier lining.
31:13
Speaker 1: So if you start to lose some of that mucus layer,
31:16
Speaker 1: that means that microbes, whether they're good or kind of
31:21
Speaker 1: you know, necessarily potentially being harmful in this case, can
31:24
Speaker 1: then start to kind of reach that gut barrier lining,
31:28
Speaker 1: which then signals to your immune system there's something wrong.
31:32
Speaker 1: They're like your immune sister goes into a bit of
31:33
Speaker 1: a panic, saying, oh, hold on, there are you know,
31:36
Speaker 1: tresparses here that shouldn't be here, that can potentially then
31:40
Speaker 1: trespass through into your body, which then again puts your
31:45
Speaker 1: immune system onto alert. And this could be then one
31:48
Speaker 1: of the pathways why we see that having less fiber
31:53
Speaker 1: is then associated with having kind of high risk of
31:58
Speaker 1: many diseases because you're then having this you know, knock
32:01
Speaker 1: on cascade effect of inflammation. Is that then triggering potentially
32:07
Speaker 1: a higher disease risk, And it's this kind of knock
32:09
Speaker 1: on pathway, And we've seen this very clearly in my studies.
32:13
Speaker 1: Again caveat with my studies, but just trying to understand
32:17
Speaker 1: kind of what's happening where where they fed the mice
32:20
Speaker 1: are kind of unhealthy kind of kibble, and they found
32:24
Speaker 1: that they're gut barrier lining then became leaky, and then
32:28
Speaker 1: they saw directly that these kind of microbes were then
32:31
Speaker 1: able to pass through and actually travel to the brain
32:34
Speaker 1: where they shouldn't be, so just trespassing. And then they
32:37
Speaker 1: saw their levels of inflammation in the mice's brain. But
32:41
Speaker 1: actually then when they switched them onto a healthier kibble
32:45
Speaker 1: that got a barrier, lining became strong again, and they
32:49
Speaker 1: didn't see this this kind of translocation of the bacteria
32:53
Speaker 1: or the kind of raised elevated levels in the brain either. Yeah,
32:57
Speaker 1: we definitely need I'm very big on the fact that
32:59
Speaker 1: we need to be eating more fiber, particularly in the
33:01
Speaker 1: context that most of us are on average only getting
33:05
Speaker 1: sixty percent about fiber needs. So we've really got this big,
33:09
Speaker 1: big fiber deficit on a daily basis that we need
33:12
Speaker 1: to be solving, well not just log go up by
33:14
Speaker 1: teriable so for ourselves as well.
33:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know that that studies looking particularly the
33:19
Speaker 2: Hadza hunter gallery tribe in Tanzania have got way more
33:24
Speaker 2: diversity in They've got microbiome in a shitload more fiber
33:29
Speaker 2: than we do. Right, So let's not get into the
33:32
Speaker 2: stuff that people can actually eat. And when you talk fiber,
33:38
Speaker 2: are we specifically talking about resistant starch or is it
33:42
Speaker 2: just any type of fiber is good fiber. And then
33:46
Speaker 2: also there's probably a good point to bring in the
33:49
Speaker 2: role of fermented foods and any other types of foods
33:52
Speaker 2: that we know are good, and then we'll go and
33:54
Speaker 2: we'll talk about the bad stuff.
33:55
Speaker 1: So when we're talking about fiber, I'm actually a bit
33:58
Speaker 1: a big advocate of talking about or fiber because I think,
34:02
Speaker 1: really we've got to talk about the health of the gut,
34:05
Speaker 1: the home of the gut microbes, as much as we
34:07
Speaker 1: talk about what foods are particular gut bacteria particularly like
34:11
Speaker 1: to feed on. So fiber isn't just yeah, fiber isn't
34:15
Speaker 1: just one one thing, it's many different types of fiber.
34:18
Speaker 1: Resistant starch kind of gets punched in on this because
34:21
Speaker 1: risids of the starch also helps to feed the gut
34:23
Speaker 1: bacteria that technically it's not fiber. So there are certain
34:27
Speaker 1: types of fiber called prebiotic fibers, which effectively just mean
34:32
Speaker 1: the kind of substance that your gut bacteria particularly like
34:35
Speaker 1: to feed on and then then housing knock on health effect.
34:38
Speaker 1: So these particular prebiotic fibers include things like inulin, doologosaccharides, glacioligosaccharides,
34:45
Speaker 1: and these are found naturally in onions, beans, asparagus, garlic, jery,
34:50
Speaker 1: cinemat chokes, and these types of fiber, your gut bacteria
34:54
Speaker 1: is like throwing them afield at a party. You kind
34:57
Speaker 1: of there are having an absolute kind of festival your
34:59
Speaker 1: gut when you eat these types of fibers. But I
35:02
Speaker 1: would say, you know, generally, it's rather than kind of
35:05
Speaker 1: zooming in and focusing just on those types of thinking, Okay,
35:08
Speaker 1: I'm just going to think about these types of fibers,
35:10
Speaker 1: I really think it's actually just getting enough fiber in
35:13
Speaker 1: in general, and getting that variety lots of different foods
35:15
Speaker 1: to contain a variety of different fibers that we're talking
35:18
Speaker 1: about again, those plant foods, fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts and seeds,
35:23
Speaker 1: whole grains, and just really trying to get that thirty
35:26
Speaker 1: grams that were recommended a day of fiber to really
35:30
Speaker 1: just help you know health of your gut. But also
35:33
Speaker 1: you've got bacteria. And there's definitely a few chips and tricks,
35:36
Speaker 1: as I mentioned in my book, My Yeah, that we
35:39
Speaker 1: can do that are really easy and practical that don't
35:42
Speaker 1: we to think about it too much. We just make
35:44
Speaker 1: sure that these are the things that we can do
35:46
Speaker 1: on a regular basis.
35:47
Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit ABOUTE I would imagine you're
35:50
Speaker 2: familiar with this Stamford study from I think it was
35:52
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago where they took a bunch
35:54
Speaker 2: of people on the SAD diet, the standard American diet,
35:58
Speaker 2: and feared half of them a diet that was high
36:01
Speaker 2: in fiber and then the other half that was high
36:04
Speaker 2: and fermented foods, and they graded them into it. And
36:08
Speaker 2: what they actually find, much to their surprise, was that
36:11
Speaker 2: lots of the people on the high fiber diet did
36:13
Speaker 2: really well and their inflammation went down, but some of
36:16
Speaker 2: them their inflammation markers went up, and everybody on their
36:21
Speaker 2: fermented foods diet did better. And their their hypothesis, I
36:25
Speaker 2: think from memory, was that that basically, if you've been
36:29
Speaker 2: eating a shit diet for quite a while, you have
36:33
Speaker 2: basically starved out the really beneficial microbes, and then when
36:37
Speaker 2: the lots of fiber comes in, it can be problematic
36:41
Speaker 2: for some people who have had that long term crappy diet,
36:45
Speaker 2: but bringing fermented foods was like kind of fertilizing the
36:50
Speaker 2: entire gut. Did you see that study and do you
36:52
Speaker 2: have any comments on it?
36:54
Speaker 3: Yeah?
36:55
Speaker 1: So, I think really what there was from what reading
36:58
Speaker 1: that study was that they felt that for the for
37:01
Speaker 1: the high fiber diet, that it wasn't a long enough
37:04
Speaker 1: time to really kind of see the benefits that they
37:07
Speaker 1: were expecting to see from the high fiber diet. And
37:10
Speaker 1: I think also they didn't necessarily look at, you know,
37:13
Speaker 1: the molecules that were being produced by fiber dit so
37:16
Speaker 1: I think quite often so there's other studies, for example,
37:19
Speaker 1: where they haven't seen a change in the diversity or
37:22
Speaker 1: the makeup of the gut microbiome, but they've seen that
37:25
Speaker 1: the metabolomes the molecules are produced can be completely different.
37:30
Speaker 1: And I think again with fiber we do need to
37:33
Speaker 1: kind of very much think in a very individualized, personalized
37:36
Speaker 1: way that you know, it's a very much go low,
37:40
Speaker 1: start low, you know, go slow. It's a step wise
37:43
Speaker 1: approach where you know, if you're you don't want to
37:45
Speaker 1: go from zero to hero because then you're going to
37:47
Speaker 1: probably get uncomfortable symptoms because we know that when you've
37:51
Speaker 1: got better of feed on fiber, they also produce gas
37:54
Speaker 1: side effects. So if you're going from zero to hero,
37:57
Speaker 1: that can then mean that you're having you know, uncomfortable
38:00
Speaker 1: bloating and can't flop the justice symptoms. And if you've
38:03
Speaker 1: got a gut microbme that is actually not very healthy profile.
38:07
Speaker 1: That might just be a period of change that you
38:10
Speaker 1: need to work on an individual way, being like, actually,
38:12
Speaker 1: I want to just slowly, softly increase this. So I
38:16
Speaker 1: think there was some interesting kind of comments around that, being,
38:19
Speaker 1: you know, white, don't they necessarily see such strong signals
38:23
Speaker 1: as they did in the fermented food study, sorry, fermented
38:26
Speaker 1: food arm. So in the fermented food arm they effectively
38:29
Speaker 1: encouraged the participants to have six servings of fermented foods
38:33
Speaker 1: a day. This sounds very intimidating, it sounds very Actually,
38:39
Speaker 1: I think it's we've got to really think about broadening
38:41
Speaker 1: that that understanding of what fermented foods are. They're not
38:45
Speaker 1: just you know, kombucha and kimchi akafe. You know, for example,
38:50
Speaker 1: you can get fresh olives that are from a local
38:53
Speaker 1: producer are fermented foods. Cheeses are fermented foods, and they're
38:57
Speaker 1: a lot different fermented foods you can get and of
39:00
Speaker 1: also kind of fermented other drinks and lots of different
39:04
Speaker 1: things about.
39:04
Speaker 2: Me so soap as well, right, and yeah, anything that's
39:08
Speaker 2: in vinegar. So you're right, there is there is a
39:11
Speaker 2: there's a huge amount of choice and what I am
39:15
Speaker 2: aware of time so other than making sure that they're
39:20
Speaker 2: getting a lot of fiber and maybe introducing some fermented
39:22
Speaker 2: foods into their diet. What are your big recommendations around diet,
39:28
Speaker 2: both to do and not to do. Presumably we should
39:32
Speaker 2: be decreasing our intakes of ultra processed foods as part
39:35
Speaker 2: of this.
39:36
Speaker 1: Whole thing, So I very much focus on adding things
39:39
Speaker 1: in because I think naturally you then end up crist out.
39:44
Speaker 1: And I think that for me just feels from a
39:46
Speaker 1: behavioral science perspective as well, is just much easier for
39:50
Speaker 1: us to kind of stick to. It's much more encouraging,
39:53
Speaker 1: it's much more fun. And I think also for I
39:55
Speaker 1: got back to it, it's going back to that perspective
39:57
Speaker 1: of Okay, ninety five percent of the nutrient for the
40:00
Speaker 1: foods you eat get absorbed in the small intestine. So
40:04
Speaker 1: a lot of the kind of quote unquote, you know,
40:06
Speaker 1: theoretically kind of bad foods, which you know, I would say,
40:10
Speaker 1: actually everything in moderation and like slice of cake's not
40:13
Speaker 1: gonna do anything to your gut. Bacteria is probably just
40:15
Speaker 1: going to be absorbed in your small intestine. So actually
40:17
Speaker 1: it's about getting the foods to your large intestine and
40:20
Speaker 1: making sure that you're getting enough of those fiber rich
40:23
Speaker 1: containing foods and also those fermented foods that then feed
40:28
Speaker 1: your got bacteria are the really key important things to
40:30
Speaker 1: be doubling down and focusing on. So I've mentioned the
40:33
Speaker 1: prebiotic fiber foods earlier, but I think when we're talking
40:37
Speaker 1: about fiber, I find it really interesting we're so fixated
40:40
Speaker 1: on protein. And yes, protein is important, and I think
40:43
Speaker 1: everybody kind of understands what high protein foods are. You know,
40:46
Speaker 1: if I say to someone, you know, what's a high
40:48
Speaker 1: protein food, straightaway say kind of meat, fish, eggs. But
40:51
Speaker 1: when we talk about fiber, we have a complete lack
40:54
Speaker 1: of understanding about actually what high fiber foods are.
40:57
Speaker 3: I think most people want to ask them.
40:58
Speaker 1: We'll say maybe something like lettuce or salad, but actually,
41:02
Speaker 1: you know, lettuce is a great example where actually it
41:05
Speaker 1: contains one point eight grams of fiber per hunch grams, which,
41:09
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, is fine, but in comparisonpla spectacular.
41:15
Speaker 1: So if we think about, you know, the chickpea fiber
41:17
Speaker 1: example that contains four to five times more fiber than
41:20
Speaker 1: that lettuce does, again in comparison, we talk about nuts
41:23
Speaker 1: of seeds. Even just two tablespoons of cheer seeds or
41:28
Speaker 1: flax seeds, that's six grams of fiber. Again, thinking about
41:31
Speaker 1: how you're swapping your bread is a really great easy
41:34
Speaker 1: way to up your fiber content. So something called you know,
41:38
Speaker 1: the rye pump nickel bread might not be your go
41:41
Speaker 1: to every day one of choice, but that even just
41:43
Speaker 1: one slice contains that six grams of fiber. So that's
41:46
Speaker 1: you know, these really great Yeah. So I talk about
41:49
Speaker 1: I talk about the b gbgs as being the kind
41:52
Speaker 1: of big high fiber hitters, and they're effectively beans, greens, berries, grains,
41:58
Speaker 1: and nuts of seeds. So green duck greens tend to
42:02
Speaker 1: be higher and fiber than a lot of other vegetables.
42:04
Speaker 1: Same with berries because they contain those seeds in them
42:08
Speaker 1: which given an extra fiber boost. But again, these are
42:11
Speaker 1: both really kind of rich sources of other photoonutrients that
42:16
Speaker 1: are really important for our gust and our brain health
42:18
Speaker 1: as well.
42:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's really an important part is
42:21
Speaker 2: it's the it's the whole food metrix that's really important,
42:26
Speaker 2: and we tend to zero in on little food components.
42:30
Speaker 2: So if you're eating real foods, yes, you're going to
42:33
Speaker 2: get a lot more fiber, but you're going to get
42:34
Speaker 2: a lot of polyphenols and flavonoids that do amazing things
42:39
Speaker 2: in our biochemistry. A couple of questions, last ones because
42:44
Speaker 2: I am aware that you have to go and do
42:46
Speaker 2: an interview. So say somebody has an issue with, for instance,
42:50
Speaker 2: pod maps, are they just going to struggle forever or
42:55
Speaker 2: is that reversible by diet, by manipulation of the got
43:00
Speaker 2: microbam do we know anything on that?
43:02
Speaker 3: Yeah?
43:02
Speaker 1: So so people somebody's got kind of fodmap in tolerance,
43:05
Speaker 1: that seems to be that it've got irritable bow syndrome.
43:08
Speaker 1: An irritable bowel syndrome is a disorder of the gut
43:11
Speaker 1: brain connection, and we think that there's very much a
43:15
Speaker 1: strong component of the gut bacteria in that. Again, this
43:18
Speaker 1: is kind of still evolving of o understanding of kind
43:21
Speaker 1: of how that relationship is. I think when thinking about
43:24
Speaker 1: lowfob maps, I mean, so, my work's a dietitian.
43:27
Speaker 3: I used to have a clinic for a while and.
43:28
Speaker 1: I would always, so far too often see people coming
43:32
Speaker 1: in who have been on a low fov map diet
43:34
Speaker 1: for a year or more, and it's a very highly
43:36
Speaker 1: restrictive diet and actually really you're only meant to be
43:40
Speaker 1: on it for you know, a period of six to
43:42
Speaker 1: eight weeks, and then you work closely one and one
43:44
Speaker 1: other dietitian to effectively try and understand which of the
43:48
Speaker 1: pod maps, because there's different types of pod maps, are
43:51
Speaker 1: the ones that are triggering you. And then also you
43:54
Speaker 1: can likely very much have some of those pod maps still,
43:57
Speaker 1: it's just maybe what are the levels those view It's
44:01
Speaker 1: a bit like you know, filling a bucket with water.
44:05
Speaker 1: You know you can have some, but then it's when
44:07
Speaker 1: it overflows that's when you're going to get symptoms.
44:10
Speaker 3: So it's very.
44:11
Speaker 1: Much a personalized approach, and I do think it's really
44:13
Speaker 1: important with the low film maps to work with someone
44:16
Speaker 1: because it is a very complex and personalized diet. And
44:21
Speaker 1: that then means that you're then able to still have
44:24
Speaker 1: that diversity of different foods that we know are really important,
44:26
Speaker 1: but still helping you to get that fiber in, but
44:29
Speaker 1: in a way that's helping you feel comfortable, it's not
44:31
Speaker 1: triggering your symptoms.
44:33
Speaker 2: Awesome, great answer, and that leads me nicely into the
44:36
Speaker 2: last question. So you talked about personalized that once you
44:40
Speaker 2: come up a couple of times. And I think it's
44:42
Speaker 2: really important because you know, when we see research study,
44:44
Speaker 2: the results are the averages, but there's lots of individual
44:48
Speaker 2: variations within that, right, But how far are we I
44:52
Speaker 2: see someone recently from a US company who does got
44:55
Speaker 2: microbiom testing NY talking about personal your diet and eating
45:02
Speaker 2: specific to your gut microbiome. How far do you think
45:06
Speaker 2: we are away from that in reality? And you know,
45:10
Speaker 2: for me, it's like, well, I mean, is that really
45:14
Speaker 2: what you want to do? Or do you want to
45:15
Speaker 2: be optimizing your gut microbiome through your food rather than
45:19
Speaker 2: eating in a manner that's going to support what's already there?
45:22
Speaker 2: What's your what's your thoughts on this whole idea of
45:24
Speaker 2: personalizing your diet?
45:26
Speaker 1: So I think I think we're really quite not quite
45:30
Speaker 1: there yet. I think there's a lot of it's a
45:32
Speaker 1: bit of a wild West out there when it comes
45:34
Speaker 1: to microbime testing. And I think when I say to people,
45:37
Speaker 1: you know, if you you know, they're very expensive as well,
45:39
Speaker 1: And I say, if you want to know what bacteria
45:42
Speaker 1: you have in your guts, then that's what your microbime
45:44
Speaker 1: test is going to tell you. If you're wanting to
45:47
Speaker 1: have any advice but special advice from that microbime test,
45:52
Speaker 1: it's not going to give you what it's what you're
45:53
Speaker 1: looking for, because of science is just not there yet
45:56
Speaker 1: when you're looking at a standardde microbiome test. And actually,
45:59
Speaker 1: you know, it's really those broad pictures of what we
46:02
Speaker 1: talked about today.
46:03
Speaker 3: It's talking about this relevant for everyone. It's talking about
46:06
Speaker 3: fiber for.
46:06
Speaker 1: Metal foods obviously according to what your taste preferences are,
46:11
Speaker 1: what makes your body feel good, you know, whether you
46:13
Speaker 1: have for example, and in tolerance that we talked about earlier,
46:16
Speaker 1: or art. But it's really that broad picture viewpoint of
46:19
Speaker 1: what supports your gut microbiome. And in a way that's
46:21
Speaker 1: great because then we get a variety of lots of
46:23
Speaker 1: different things, so we don't feel that we just have
46:25
Speaker 1: to eat red peppers for the rest of our lives.
46:27
Speaker 3: So that's.
46:31
Speaker 1: So.
46:31
Speaker 3: Yeah.
46:31
Speaker 1: So I think I think we know. I've done a
46:33
Speaker 1: bit of research myself at King's where we've looked at
46:36
Speaker 1: kind of relationships with microbes and different foods, and I
46:39
Speaker 1: think we're just you know, we're seeing kind of signals,
46:42
Speaker 1: but I just think we're not quite there.
46:44
Speaker 2: Yet.
46:44
Speaker 1: And I think really what we need is to really
46:47
Speaker 1: really understand and have much better viewpoints on, you know,
46:51
Speaker 1: the nutritional composition of each of these different foods, to
46:54
Speaker 1: really understand, you know, look at the different fiber contents
46:58
Speaker 1: at these different foods and then just say, okay, we'll
47:00
Speaker 1: actually really breaking down the different components and then see
47:04
Speaker 1: perhaps a relationship there. But I just think we're not
47:06
Speaker 1: We're really not there yet. I would say that probably
47:08
Speaker 1: the next maybe five ten years.
47:10
Speaker 3: Maybe we'll have more of an understanding.
47:12
Speaker 1: I'll probably say closer to ten years, but in a
47:15
Speaker 1: way we don't do we really need to know that.
47:18
Speaker 1: I think it's got to be done in a way
47:19
Speaker 1: that's helpful and it's not going to just make our
47:22
Speaker 1: diet then something that is kind of quite scary and
47:25
Speaker 1: intimidating because we think we've got to do xyzed all
47:28
Speaker 1: the time and it becomes hyper focused, because then that's
47:30
Speaker 1: causing extra stress that's then having a knock on effect
47:34
Speaker 1: from your brain down to your gut. So I think
47:35
Speaker 1: everything just needs to have a kind of your yeah
47:38
Speaker 1: perspective on it that's practical.
47:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I agree, I don't think by there yet,
47:44
Speaker 2: and just the fact that you said earlier that we
47:47
Speaker 2: know that by tweaking your diet for three days it
47:50
Speaker 2: can change the composition of your gut microbiome tends to
47:54
Speaker 2: suggest that getting a microbium test is just a snapshot
47:58
Speaker 2: of what it's like right now, and it might be
48:01
Speaker 2: tweaked a little bit depending on what you're eating in
48:04
Speaker 2: the next few days and how much alcohol and all
48:06
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. So we don't know if it's
48:09
Speaker 2: completely stealable, right, So I think basing your whole diet
48:13
Speaker 2: on a one snapshot is probably not the right answer.
48:17
Speaker 2: What is the right answer, though, is buying your book.
48:20
Speaker 2: So where can people go to a find out about
48:24
Speaker 2: your book and your work and socials all of that
48:28
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. Where do we say in people to
48:29
Speaker 2: find out more?
48:30
Speaker 3: Great?
48:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, So my book is called Genius Gut, The Life
48:34
Speaker 1: Changing Science of Eating for your Second Brain, and it
48:38
Speaker 1: is effectively a simple guide to everything gut health, everything
48:42
Speaker 1: got microbiome from my perspective, as you know, as I
48:45
Speaker 1: talked about a microbrime scientist, dietician and also as a chef,
48:49
Speaker 1: so it's very practical. There are ten simple hacks for
48:53
Speaker 1: your gut brain connection, focusing on not just what you eat,
48:57
Speaker 1: but how you eat as well to your mood, your cognition,
49:02
Speaker 1: so being mentally sharp and also just generally kind of
49:05
Speaker 1: feeling energized and feeling your best. So that is going
49:09
Speaker 1: to be available in Australia towards the end of the year,
49:12
Speaker 1: but it's available in the UK currently in all kind
49:14
Speaker 1: of major bookshops and Amazon. So I definitely I know
49:18
Speaker 1: I wrote it, so I feel like biased in saying this,
49:20
Speaker 1: but it really is everything that I've ever wanted anyone
49:24
Speaker 1: to know on your gut health in really practical terms
49:27
Speaker 1: that you can really put into praise and in a
49:30
Speaker 1: way that's also enjoyable, according to what you like to eat.
49:33
Speaker 1: That's not just anything kind of wild and crazy. It's
49:36
Speaker 1: like all of the things you really want to know and
49:38
Speaker 1: need to know if you've got health. You can also
49:40
Speaker 1: find me on socials, so it's doctor Emilyleming, and my
49:45
Speaker 1: website is www dot Emilyleming dot com. And yes, and
49:49
Speaker 1: I say I've actually should mention I've got a free
49:53
Speaker 1: weekly email newsletter on the gut brain connection called Second
49:57
Speaker 1: Brain that you can sign up either through my website
49:59
Speaker 1: or through substack.
50:00
Speaker 2: Excellent. Okay, So there you go, people, doctor Emily Leming
50:04
Speaker 2: dot com and go out and get her book, because
50:08
Speaker 2: who doesn't want a genius cut? Emily, this has been awesome.
50:12
Speaker 2: You are a true master of your craft and put
50:16
Speaker 2: it across very eloquently as well. So thank you for
50:19
Speaker 2: giving up your valuable time. And I know that lots
50:23
Speaker 2: of people will have got lots of good things out
50:25
Speaker 2: of this, so keep doing your cool work.
50:27
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thanks so much for having me