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The Inexpensive Survival Guide For Anxious Girlies · Two Broke Chicks

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  Speaker 1: This podcast is recorded on gadigal Land, Always was, always
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  Speaker 1: will be Aboriginal Land. Hey cheeks, I'm sal and I'm out.
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  Speaker 2: And this is Two Broake Chicks, the show that shares
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  Speaker 2: life lessons and tips to help make you rich in life.
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  Speaker 2: And today we are joined by Ellen Seer, clinical psychologists
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  Speaker 2: with an expertise in social, generalized and performance anxiety, also
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  Speaker 2: working on a PhD currently around perfectionism. So in today's episode,
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  Speaker 2: we're are bringing you a survival guide for anxious girlies.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the show.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 1: We're so excited, SOA and I was saying before we've
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  Speaker 1: got our notes ready, I'm gonna have yeah. Okay, and
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  Speaker 1: where do we begin?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, we're very excited to get into the episode,
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  Speaker 2: but before we do, we like to start with a
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  Speaker 2: life lesson of the week.
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  Speaker 4: So, as our guest, would you like to kick us off?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, well, life lesson?
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  Speaker 3: Let's think about this and what's important is to add
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  Speaker 3: levity and playfulness to life and certain example of thinking
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  Speaker 3: of it's this thing where I've been sending my husband
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  Speaker 3: these weird husband habits like you know, I don't know
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  Speaker 3: whether you've seen them, but like a cat is looking
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  Speaker 3: shocked where they're saying, it's shocked because you know, a
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  Speaker 3: husband can go to work and come back and spain
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  Speaker 3: all these complex things, but then when it comes to
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  Speaker 3: finding mustard in the fridge. Yeah, so I send it
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  Speaker 3: to him and a chat with him and then he
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  Speaker 3: rolled his eyes. I laugh about it. My daughter also
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  Speaker 3: laughs about it because we all agree on these.
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  Speaker 1: Weird quick absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: So that's the thing that I've been learning to to
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  Speaker 3: try to dore.
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  Speaker 1: Playful more playfulness. I love that play is like one
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  Speaker 1: of my main values in life. So I love that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, what's yours olf.
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  Speaker 1: Mine is to embrace the impromptu plants sometimes with social
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  Speaker 1: things or events like that, or plans. I like to
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  Speaker 1: have it in my head that that's what I'm doing,
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  Speaker 1: Like it's very Sometimes if it's like let's do this
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  Speaker 1: randomly and sporadically, I'm.
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  Speaker 5: Like, but I haven't plans for it, like I haven't
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  Speaker 5: socially spiritually, and I think for me, I'm trying to
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  Speaker 5: like move away.
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  Speaker 1: And the reason why this is my life lesson of
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  Speaker 1: the week is because this week's Soal was over working
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  Speaker 1: at my house and normally we would work. She would
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  Speaker 1: come over at like nine, and then we would work
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  Speaker 1: till maybe about five thirty six and then so I
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  Speaker 1: would head home. But it got to about four o'clock
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  Speaker 1: and it was a really beautiful day. Spring is springing,
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  Speaker 1: and I was like, do you want to go for
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  Speaker 1: a walk, and like that is the weirdest thing for
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  Speaker 1: us to do at the end of the day, to
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  Speaker 1: be like, let's go for a walk. And I was like,
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  Speaker 1: you can borrow a T shirt. You've already got your
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  Speaker 1: sneakers on. And we went for like an hour and
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  Speaker 1: a half walk and we like full and went for
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  Speaker 1: a full and walk. We got back and I was like,
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  Speaker 1: do you want to stay over a cookbuster and watch
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  Speaker 1: a TV show? And you like stayed over like not planned.
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  Speaker 1: I was like, I'll order the ingredients and then we
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  Speaker 1: watched a TV show and you went home like that's
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  Speaker 1: the highlight of my week, Like I had so much fun. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's my life. Lesson of the week is to embrace
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  Speaker 1: the impromptu plans a little bit more.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that, especially midweek.
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  Speaker 1: Say you had fun too, Oh, I had the best time.
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  Speaker 2: My life lesson is that your words are the seeds
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  Speaker 2: that you sow, and it's a reminder that I got
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  Speaker 2: and I've actually heard it before, and it was on
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  Speaker 2: Queer Eye, one of my favorite shows, and JBN, who
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  Speaker 2: is one of the one of the people in the
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  Speaker 2: cast of the show, was saying to one of the
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  Speaker 2: heroes of the episode that when you talk badly about yourself,
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  Speaker 2: you should yell crop failure because your words are the
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  Speaker 2: seeds that you sow, and if you're saying bad things
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  Speaker 2: about yourself, you're growing like weeds and bad plans about yourself.
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  Speaker 2: So when you catch yourself talking to yourself negatively, say
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  Speaker 2: crop failure and remind yourself that your words of the.
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  Speaker 4: Same that you say.
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  Speaker 1: I like that.
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  Speaker 2: We'll hold someone very good. Okay, we've got our life
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  Speaker 2: lessons out of the way. Let's get into the episode,
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  Speaker 2: shall we.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, this is something that I very much struggle with
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  Speaker 1: understanding that I think multiple people would as well, is
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  Speaker 1: how can we tell the difference between normal stress and
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  Speaker 1: clinical anxiety?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, first things first, anxiety is an emotion is
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  Speaker 3: actually a very normal human part of the human experience.
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  Speaker 3: So saying that though when we're talking about normal stress,
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  Speaker 3: in clinical anxiety, the difference between the two is generally
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  Speaker 3: one stress or normal stress is very time limited response
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  Speaker 3: and there's an often identifiable trigger or triggers, whereas clinical
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  Speaker 3: anxiety is more pervasive, persistent, a sense of fear that's
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  Speaker 3: kind of difficult to control. And the other thing is
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  Speaker 3: that it has kind of negative consequence in on how
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  Speaker 3: it interferes in our light functioning. Okay, yeah, so do
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  Speaker 3: you think to bear in mind one in clinical anxiety,
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  Speaker 3: it's the symptoms are more intense, longer lasting, as well
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  Speaker 3: as higher inference in our functioning.
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  Speaker 1: Is clinical things that you know, Sometimes people can have
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  Speaker 1: that feeling of I feel stressed, but I don't know why.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, sometimes I think we'll get into it later.
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  Speaker 3: But sometimes what happens is that we get triggered into
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  Speaker 3: feeling anxiety and our bodies have a sudden response, and
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  Speaker 3: there's residual effects that can occur, and that can go
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  Speaker 3: on for a little while. So it might seem like
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  Speaker 3: as if nothing else is happening or there's no stress
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  Speaker 3: a present, it's very obvious, but then that's because the
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  Speaker 3: residual effects of that fight flight response.
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  Speaker 1: Is going on. Yeahs I have that. I'm like, I'm stressed,
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  Speaker 1: but I can't remember why, And then I sit there
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  Speaker 1: and I try to remember why I'm stressed. And then
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  Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes I will oh, yeah, there's that thing happening
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  Speaker 1: and I've got to figure that out. Or sometimes I'm like,
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  Speaker 1: did I just drink coffee on an empty stomach? I
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  Speaker 1: don't know.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And sometimes external circumstances that can contribute to that,
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  Speaker 3: Like that's just saying sometimes coffee can do that towards too, Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: like a bad night's like or whole morning changes too.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Does anxiety show up differently in women in comparison to men, Well.
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  Speaker 3: The stats show that women experience anxiety in life. A
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  Speaker 3: third of women experience anxiety in life at least once
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  Speaker 3: in life. And then men on your compare men, it's
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  Speaker 3: a one fifth of men who experience it. So women
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  Speaker 3: generally experience anxiety more and earlier than men. Wow, is
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  Speaker 3: that there are lots of different hypotheses around it. There's like,
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  Speaker 3: you know, genetics and brain chemistry, but there's certain tendencies
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  Speaker 3: that women have that kind of also add to the mix. So,
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  Speaker 3: for instance, women have a tendency to worry and overthink
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  Speaker 3: ruminate more than men would in instead of engaging in
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  Speaker 3: problem solving, we do this perservative thinking. Which obviously then
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  Speaker 3: adds or exacerbates the anxiety.
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  Speaker 1: What's what.
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  Speaker 3: Perservative never kids thinking? Let's see, the thinking keeps going
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  Speaker 3: on like worrying and wow.
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  Speaker 1: So if there's like a problem, it's like, oh, but
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  Speaker 1: this could happen, and then this could happen.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So it keeps going on and there's no like
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  Speaker 3: there's it's almost like there's no way of problem solving
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  Speaker 3: and it's always just thinking of the surface all around it.
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  Speaker 3: And that doesn't help in a lot of situations when
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  Speaker 3: anxiety has been triggered.
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  Speaker 1: I can imagine as well due to like most women
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  Speaker 1: playing care given roles, that would also play into that statistic.
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  Speaker 3: That's actually really interesting because if you think about it,
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  Speaker 3: women have socialized at a very young age and even
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  Speaker 3: continue to be reinforced with this idea of you need
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  Speaker 3: to kind of think about your interpersonal environment a lot
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  Speaker 3: more so. Good example is girls need to play nice,
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  Speaker 3: right or don't be that difficult woman that you know
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  Speaker 3: you get a lot, whether in workplaces or you know,
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  Speaker 3: just in interpersonal relationships. But with that sort of kind
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  Speaker 3: of internalized learning, you're more likely to people please than
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  Speaker 3: not right. So because of that, the anxiety you know
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  Speaker 3: to the anxiety to be kind of cope with the anxiety.
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  Speaker 1: People.
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  Speaker 3: Women tend to do people pleasing a lot because that's
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  Speaker 3: a way to kind of deal with with the surroundings
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  Speaker 3: that they're supposed to tune to.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, like be a good girl. Yeah, whereas for you know,
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  Speaker 1: a lot of men, it's all boys will be boys. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: They are kind of more focused on what they're doing
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  Speaker 2: rather than other people's feelings and carrying that emotional labor,
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  Speaker 2: and people.
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  Speaker 3: Don't responds strongly if men do it versus a woman
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  Speaker 3: that's doing it too.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Women have a tendency to people please because it's a
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  Speaker 3: way to cope with the anxiety. Right, It's been something
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  Speaker 3: they've been taught to think and believe that that's how
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  Speaker 3: it should be.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like I think I've been told I don't
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  Speaker 1: even know how many times of you know, don't be bossy,
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  Speaker 1: and so when you just said don't be difficult, then
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  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, that takes the thing in my brain
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  Speaker 1: that even when i'm I find my stuff, when I'm
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  Speaker 1: talking to people, I will explain the end of my
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  Speaker 1: sentence before I finish my sentence of being like I'm
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  Speaker 1: asking this question not because I don't think of this
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  Speaker 1: this or that or this. I'm just asking because I
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  Speaker 1: just wanted to know this, and I over explain to
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  Speaker 1: try and get ahead of any assumption that you're difficult,
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  Speaker 1: that I'm difficult or bossy. And yeah, so that really
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  Speaker 1: ticked it.
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  Speaker 4: You mentioned overthinking and people pleasing.
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  Speaker 2: What are some other common ways that young women typically
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  Speaker 2: experience anxiety, because I know that perfectionism is maybe one.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So perfectionism, if I can define it a little bit,
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  Speaker 3: it's basically that you know, in sitiable, striving for very
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  Speaker 3: unrelenting standards often comes with self criticism and a self
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  Speaker 3: worth that's very dependent or contingent on achieving those standards.
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  Speaker 3: With women and men, they're not huge gender differences, but
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  Speaker 3: there have been some studies that's shown that women have
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  Speaker 3: a tendency to kind of perceive that others are expecting
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  Speaker 3: perfection out of them. So what that means is a
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  Speaker 3: female perfectionist will be more stressed out or more anxious,
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  Speaker 3: because not only do they all have their own high
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  Speaker 3: standards that they're anxious about, they're thinking about what other
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  Speaker 3: people are expecting of them as well. So add that
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  Speaker 3: all to the mix. You can just see how that's
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  Speaker 3: layer over layer of anxiety that can affect a woman.
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  Speaker 3: Of female perfectionists at least, is that.
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  Speaker 4: Strive towards perfectionism getting worse.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, the research has shown that it's been increasing over
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  Speaker 3: the years. There are reasons for that, you know, whether
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  Speaker 3: it's societal kind of expectations, parenting, more anxiety, helicopter parenting,
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  Speaker 3: you know, the need to sort of achieve definitely, you know,
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  Speaker 3: kind of the emphasis on perfection in media, social media advertising,
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  Speaker 3: those sorts of things can affect body image kind of
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  Speaker 3: issues too, right, because interestingly, the sort of stats on
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  Speaker 3: male the number of males who have body image dissatisfaction
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  Speaker 3: has tripled over the last twenty five years. So it
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  Speaker 3: does affect women, you know, because obviously the slick perfect
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  Speaker 3: body standard it's so emphasized that it's affecting men as well.
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  Speaker 2: Well.
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  Speaker 1: I would never have guessed that, And again that's not
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  Speaker 1: to say I sat here thinking, no, I don't have
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  Speaker 1: a problems or anything like that, but it goes to show.
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  Speaker 1: And I am not surprised by that because you also
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  Speaker 1: see on social media a lot of these I've seen
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  Speaker 1: so much in like male gym and body building and
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  Speaker 1: that have such an uptick, especially on YouTube, that there's
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  Speaker 1: heaps of that, and I am not surprised. We very
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  Speaker 1: often say on the show to filter your feed and
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  Speaker 1: that if anything is making you feel bad about yourself,
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  Speaker 1: which like recovering people pleasers here.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, the algorithms don't help because obviously you're getting more
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  Speaker 3: and more of what you're looking at.
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  Speaker 4: It's like a toxic loop, like.
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  Speaker 1: What's happening inside your brain when you're getting anxious.
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  Speaker 3: I can tet know what happens inside your body, so
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  Speaker 3: tell me that. That's even better. So when we face
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  Speaker 3: like threat order, which is when anxiety tends to be triggered,
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  Speaker 3: what we are hardwired as human beings to to be
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  Speaker 3: responding is to find ourselves wanting to run away from
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  Speaker 3: the thread or fight, fight, stand and fight the threat, right,
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  Speaker 3: So that's your five flight response. Often this is going
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  Speaker 3: to protect you because it's going to keep you from
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  Speaker 3: getting hurt or you know, not surviving. But the thing
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  Speaker 3: is it affects three different major systems in the body,
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  Speaker 3: or of three major systems of the human being, one
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  Speaker 3: being the physical, which is what you're interested in, but
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  Speaker 3: there's also cognitive, the cognitive system and the behavioral system
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  Speaker 3: that gets affected in the five flight response. In the
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  Speaker 3: physical body, what we're looking at is the body gets
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  Speaker 3: ready to fight off lee and some Some examples of
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  Speaker 3: those physical symptoms could be increases in heart rate, increase
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  Speaker 3: in the strength of the heartbeat, breathing gets you know, faster, Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Sweating, sweating target hot and cold.
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  Speaker 3: But you think about it, these things are making you
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  Speaker 3: prepare yourself to either fight or flee or get ready
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  Speaker 3: to run away.
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  Speaker 1: But other things too.
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  Speaker 3: That's interesting is that if you think about it, not
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  Speaker 3: essential systems, your activities in those areas will drop too.
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  Speaker 3: So you know, your guess, your intentional system not important
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  Speaker 3: in the running away and the fighting. So some people
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  Speaker 3: get that nausea or the stomach issues because of that
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  Speaker 3: as well. Yeah, so it's all it's all about preparing
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  Speaker 3: you to run away or fight because that's keeping you safe.
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  Speaker 3: The issue is it has this like I was saying earlier,
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  Speaker 3: it does. It does take time for it to diep
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  Speaker 3: It doesn't just kind of go immediately, and so when
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  Speaker 3: when your body needs that time.
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  Speaker 1: That's one thing.
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  Speaker 3: But the other thing is there's residual effects that can
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  Speaker 3: last a bit longer, and so you're not sure, why
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  Speaker 3: am I so anxious right now? Why is my body
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  Speaker 3: reacting this with you? And there's obviously not obvious trigger
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  Speaker 3: that's going on right now. Yeah, So from a physical
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  Speaker 3: point of view, that's kind of what goes on in
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  Speaker 3: your body. But it's really again trying. It is designed
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  Speaker 3: to get you to be safe, keep yourself safe. The
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  Speaker 3: only thing is your brain isn't actually a tune to
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  Speaker 3: or at least fine tune enough to differentiate between an
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  Speaker 3: actual threat and a perceived threat. You know, yeah, it
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  Speaker 3: makes a lot of sense, right, bus is coming up
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  Speaker 3: to you. You want to be able to react fast, right, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: and that's what the five flight response is. But when
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  Speaker 3: it's about like oh, you know, I dropped my.
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  Speaker 1: Pen, or or your boss just saying can we talk
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  Speaker 1: it three.
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  Speaker 3: Exactly, Yeah, that's all a perceived threat. But your brain
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  Speaker 3: doesn't differentiate between those two. It just tells you, come on,
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  Speaker 3: five flight response, start going. Yeah. The other thing I
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  Speaker 3: was saying too, is the cognitive system gets affected. So
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  Speaker 3: people find themselves when they're anxious, their thoughts are racing
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  Speaker 3: a lot. And that's because it makes a lot of
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  Speaker 3: sense if and it's an actual threat you want to
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  Speaker 3: quit thinking to occur, right, You want to be able
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  Speaker 3: to make rapid decisions. Not so great when you're you know,
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  Speaker 3: trying to figure out what exactly is my boss wanting
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  Speaker 3: from me? And then that sort of creates a whole
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  Speaker 3: like you know what, worries that kind of start getting
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  Speaker 3: really more and more anxious. So concentration gets shot too
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  Speaker 3: sometimes because you're consumed by what this danger is all about.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, you can't really think logically.
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  Speaker 2: But is it also true that if you're experiencing like
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  Speaker 2: clinical or chronic stress and anxiety as well, that those
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  Speaker 2: receptors are more likely to go off like quicker than say,
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  Speaker 2: if you were, you know, perhaps feeling anxiety at like
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  Speaker 2: a normal in quotations, Right.
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  Speaker 3: I wouldn't be about to share exactly because it's not
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  Speaker 3: really my area. But if you think about it from
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  Speaker 3: a reinforcement sort of sort of aspect, if you're doing
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  Speaker 3: that already, there's more likely of a chance for you
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  Speaker 3: to continue to then look at more negative or have
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  Speaker 3: bias lance towards your thinking about any sort of triggers
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  Speaker 3: or any situation that comes about. Yeah, so yeah, I
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  Speaker 3: would think I would say if I can answer that
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  Speaker 3: from that angle, I would say that's kind of where
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  Speaker 3: I would take that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So.
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  Speaker 4: It is sort of like that habit loop.
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  Speaker 3: So behaviorally, the five flight response or anxiety how anxiety related.
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  Speaker 3: The behavior is we can to avoid, and that can
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  Speaker 3: be avoidance of all sorts of different things from situations
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  Speaker 3: that you might one might avoid, or task that might
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  Speaker 3: or actions that one might avoid. Procrastination and indecision are
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  Speaker 3: good examples of that. There's cognitive and emotional avoidance, so
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  Speaker 3: things like zoning out because you know you don't want
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  Speaker 3: to have to think about things, or toxic positivity. It's
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  Speaker 3: another way of you know, emotionally avoiding or you know,
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  Speaker 3: cognitively avoiding as well. There are certain types of avoidance
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  Speaker 3: that are almost subtle avoidance. They caught safety behaviors in
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  Speaker 3: that you don't avoid things completely, but you do it
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  Speaker 3: with some some behaviors that make you feel a bit better.
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  Speaker 3: So a good example is like seeking reassurance excessively because
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  Speaker 3: you you're wanting to feel like as if you're doing
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  Speaker 3: the right thing, or you're you're preparing in excess when
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  Speaker 3: you're doing work or assignments. Those are sorts of avoidance
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: that I would say, you know, are associated with anxiety.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: I have to say avoidance is not all bad because
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: some of it's also a key. So you want to
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: think of it as a Yeah, so you need to
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: think of it as a spectrum. But the way you
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: want to think about it is if it's interfering in
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: your living a life that's purposeful and meaningful, or it's
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: done in excess, or it's getting in the way of things.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: That's when it's kind of productive and unhelpful.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Where does defensiveness sit into that? So in that way,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: defensive So for example, if you felt like you're in
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: an anxious situation and you've jumped on the defense protect
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: like protectiveness.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so if you remember that fight flight response, So
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: usually the fleeing response is the avoidance, right, Yeah, the
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: fighting response is really what you're talking about when you're
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: talking about defensiveness, because it's a way to react to
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: protect yourself.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: So in that case, it's another form of an anxiety
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: related response.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I find that was definitely something I would do
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: growing up. It would be like no, no, no, but
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: I didn't mean it like that, or I didn't say that,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: or no no, that would be like, my it would
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: be like a way to walk back, but also be like,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: but I didn't mean it, but it is.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And also you're like you can jump on the
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: defense before they have their chance to say anything else
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: that also like could potentially hurt your feelings or even
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: something that you may know is true, like they may
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: have a good point. So that's really interesting because it's
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: like you would think that some of these things are helpful,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: but it is like self soothing to the point that
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: it actually could be harmful. Is I guess, how do
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: you know the difference between those two things, if it
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: is helping or if it is just self soothing.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: So, like, as I was mentioning, key things to think
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: about would be is this done in excess? Right? Am
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: I doing it too much? Am I over relying on
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: it where I can't do life without having it?
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: Or if it's getting in the way of me living
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: a life that's values aligned, I'm not living a meaningful
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: life because I'm avoiding all these things. So I'm not
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: living a meaningful, purposeful life because I'm always on the defense,
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: or I'm not making decisions. So things like that will
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: give you an idea of whether or not this behavior
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: is actually helpful or kind of productive.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And do you have any affordable strategies to help
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: reduce anxiety, because obviously if you're in a position it
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: is always you know, we always recommend speaking to professionals,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: and this episode is absolutely not the be all and
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: end all for anyone that is feeling like they need
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: to have some assistance with their anxiety. We absolutely recommend
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: going and seeing your GP. You're talking to a professional,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: but in your experience, what are some popular ways that
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: have worked for some people or some strategies and keeping
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: in mind it's not a one size fits all approach.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So some things that can be helpful are thinks
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: like soothing, calm breathing, or relaxation exercises that does that
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: whole of bringing that flight flight response down a bit
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: from where it can get to because we get triggered
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: by environl mental or internal triggers. Other things like you know,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: making sure your life's maintaining a healthy lifestyle can be
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: a good foundation. So being active, going for your walkies,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: spending time with friends and family, pick. Yeah, eating, well,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: another thing that's also useful would be being kind to yourself,
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: Like because what that does is activates another part of us,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: which is a soothing system part of us. Right, whenever
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: we're in thread mode, we've activated a threat system. Whereas
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: when we're kind to ourselves and were engage in that
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: soothing system that can hopefully moderate some of that threat
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: system that's going. That's been activated, and that's why the
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: anxiety is there.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: It sounds like a lot of it is like building
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: a foundation. It's not necessarily like thinking, Okay, i'm anxious,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: now I'll do this. It's more like building yourself up
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: to be able to deal with those moments because obviously
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: life is going to have stresses.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, combination, obviously you would have the one that you
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: know give you that foundational supports or buttresses you know,
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: your ability to be resilient and to cope with different
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: life challenges. But obviously there are strategies that you would
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: use in the moment or you know you would, You
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: would not avoid and you would face the challenge versus
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: you know, going with what the anxiety tends to tell
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: you to do it just you run away or avoid
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: the situation.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: I always love a shower, Yeah, a shower. It always helps,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Like if I can feel it's like a kettle boiling,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: it's like it's going like and I'm like, oh, the
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: spiral is happening. I'll get in the shower.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: Sometimes people find the sensory some sensory activity is helpful
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: and again bringing us back into that window of tolerance
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: because we're in hyper arousal mode. So in doing some
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: of these most sensory or embodied strategies, it helps with that.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: You know, sometimes that cup of tea or things like
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: that can be helpful, but it's not a cure all obviously.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: It's just things that you can add to the mix
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: to try and help yourself with managing some anxiety. Yeah.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: Another thing is also just being more present. So steeing
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: in the present will help you not kind of go
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: into a place of rumination about the past or worrying
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: about the future.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Is I don't know if this is just in movies
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: that I've seen, but isn't one strategy like naming things
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: you see in the room.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's a grounding technique that sometimes people use. Again,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: it's creating this sense of being more in the present
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: rather than getting caught up in the past or in
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: the future.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think this is something that we've tried
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: as well before. And I don't know if this is
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: technically a strategy for staying present, but it's writing down
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: what the problem is and like what the potential solution
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: or outcome could be. Like we literally had a really
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: stressful conversation the other day and Alex was like, get
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: your notepad, write down like what's happening and what the
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: worst case scenario will be, and like it's there, it is,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: And I did feel like that helped me be like, Okay,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: well I've written it out of my brain and then
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: now I'm not like Alex is doing.
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: A little I am a therapist, I'm very good friends exactly.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: But it was and it wasn't being like oh well
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: i'll and then I crumpled up the paper and threw
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: it away, like that's not what happened. We still had
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: to have the difficult conversation, and but it just made
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: me be like, Okay, well, this is this is what
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: I'm anxious about, this is the potential outcome.
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: The worst case scenario is this.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: I can deal with that.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And like now I'm not going to spiral on
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: it because it's just on this piece of paper.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I think that's a combination of sort of
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: what we call being dumping, which is taking it out
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: and externalizing it, because sometimes when it's kind of looping
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: around in our heads, all it does is it takes
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: us away from being present and problem solving, and instead
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: we go into the escalating more of like worrying about
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: what could be the worst potential thing and not.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: An elephant could come out and trample me, and then
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: and then a fire happens and then oh my god,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I've been dumped and oh my lad. Yeah, my brain.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: But that literally happens in people's minds when they're getting
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: anxious because again, that five flight response is getting you
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: to think really quickly, and more and more things they
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: put into it creative.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Right, So I am literally an award winning author. Inside
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: my brain, I hate it and she's me and it's me.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: But why do we always get anxious thoughts right before
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: we're about to fall asleep?
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, if you think about it, when you're falling asleep,
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: there are there's a lack of daytime distractions going on,
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: and the day you're busy, you're focused, you're preoccupied by
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: all sorts of things that you're doing and trying to
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: get done. Yeah, the time when you're about to fall asleep,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: there's none of that. Your brain now has all the
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: space to go, let me think about that and that
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: and that and that.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: The other thing is we often do this thing, or
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: at least in modern times, people do this thing where
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: they just work all the way or they player all
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: the way until the very end of the day where
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: they go to sleep. And so you're less likely to
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: wind down to have that space to do some of
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: that stuff that pops up in your head and go, okay,
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: let me put that down for something to do tomorrow
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: or so on and so forth. So that's also going
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: to be another sort of space and another reason for
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: why you're more likely to then have that raising mind
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: going on as you're about to fall asleep. There's this
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: weird vicious cycle that can occur too, because if you're
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: anxious and thinking about all of these things as you're
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: falling asleep, you're less likely to be sleepy and want
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: to fall asleep. Then sometimes what your brain does it
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: does this thing where it goes, oh, no, why can't
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: I fall asleep and.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: So and then full sleep exactly be tired, and.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: As you're not telling yourself to do things. Sometimes just
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: doesn't quite work like that, Right, So there's this vicious
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: cycle that can occur, right, The anxiety not being able
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: to fall asleep causes anxiety, The anxiety causes you do
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: not fall asleep further, so it goes around and around
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: like that.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, toxiccle But I think good reminder to have that
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: wind down before bad and focus on that sleep hygiene.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Is anxiety ever something to be embraced, Like, is there
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: such a thing as good anxiety?
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: I think anxiety is a misunderstood emotion. It's got a
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: bad rap, right because whenever you think about anxiety, what
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: your sense of it is, it's something I don't want
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: because it's bad.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: We want to try and get rid of it as
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: much as possible, or not experience it as much as possible.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: The issue is that anxiety is part and parcel of
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: an evolutionary system called the threat system. Right. It signals
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: to us things that are important or dear to us
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: that might be threatened. And so if that threat system
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: is being activated and signal, anxiety is a signal, it's
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: telling us okay, come on, there's something to be aware of.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: But it should motivate us to then try to solve
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: the problems around it or try to maintain some safety
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: around it. Right the issues we don't do that, we
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: end up doing all sorts of other things besides what
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: it's signaling to us our because, like I said, our
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: brains don't find tune the differentiation between actual and perceived
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: threat or imagine threat. With so much exposure of triggering
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: that triggers anxiety. In this day, in each whether it's
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: social media or whatever it's on the news or whatever
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: you see, you're going to be activated a lot and
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: you have these thoughts of like anxieties bad. I don't
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: want to have anything to do with it. Shouldn't exist,
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: it's intolerable. The combination of it's going to make you
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: more likely to go I'm not going to accept this
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: at all. Yeah, if we have that kind of attitude,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: it's going to intensify the anxiety rather than allow.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: For you to take It's called toxic sleep cycles. A
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: bit like you're saying, don't be anxious, you're going to
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: be anxious, and then being anxious makes you anxious. Then
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: you're get exactly I'm getting it.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: It's about then taking a more validating and accepting stands
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: towards emotions, the emotion of anxiety, so making room for
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: it rather than trying to struggle to get rid of it,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: allowing yourself to recognize it's there for a reason. What
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: is it trying to tell me? Versus kind of going
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: just get it out of my life altogether?
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Yeap Oh, that's amazing And I think that's a really
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: great way to look at it as well. Like I'm
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: assuming you've seen Inside Out too.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually, that's both of them. One and two would
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: be a recommendation that I would see if you want
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: an easy way of learning about emotions. Yeah, those animated
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: movies are good ones.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: They're the best. I sob in both of them. They're
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: so beautiful. And the actress who voices anxiety, she was
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: in an interview when the movie came out, and she
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: said that learning like being that character made her learn
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: that her anxiety is only ever trying to help. Yeah,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: and like that. I just thought it was such a
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: beautiful rhetoric that I've tried to remember, not always, but
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: tried to remember being like this is just like my
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: anxiety is just trying to help me in this moment
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: to figure out whatever it is, or to alert me
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: to whatever I perceived as a thread or a problem
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: that I need to fix. But to wrap up the episode,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: I would love to ask you our final question, and
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: is there a myth about anxiety that you would like
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: to retire for good?
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: Well, I think aligned with just with what we've just mentioned,
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: I would like to retire the myth of anxiety is
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: bad because it's not inherently good or bad. It's just
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: part and part all of the human experience. And if
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: we want to learn to live with this very natural
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: part of being human, we've got to embrace it. We've
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: got to allow for it, to for ask to make
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: room for it when it occurs, and listen to it
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: when it's seeing something to us as important perfect.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: I love that. That's a great note to end on.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: I think, thank you so much, amazing.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: It was a really great conversation, and I do think
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: that so many of the chicks listening will get a
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: lot out of the episode. But for anybody who has
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: resonated with this conversation and wants to learn more about
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: their own anxiety and how to deal with that and
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: how to embrace that, do you have any suggestions on
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: some resources or things that people can go do after
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: listening to this episode.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: Well, I think, as you guys had mentioned before, seeking
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: therapeutic help would be very helpful.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: That support is very idiosyncratic and it's based on what
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: you know you might need, and the therapists were be
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: able to do that or psychologists will be able to
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: do that for you. As for resources, I can send
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: you links that you know you can Yeah, that's why
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: you want to do that. The government has this this
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: particular website which allows for you to do a quiz
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: and even tailors kind of where what sort of help
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: would be useful. Plus there are government supported services digital
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: services like mind spot, so people who people who prefer
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: that sort of medium can also do that and it's
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: I believe it's free. But there's a few things like
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: that that the one can also look for.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Am going to do that survey.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: I know all the links in the shiner as well
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: as a link to your website too, so people want
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: to learn more about you, which I'm sure they will.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: But thank you so much for coming on the show today,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Thank you so much chicks
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: for having us in the ear holes. We love to
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: be here and thanks to m ik Made for making
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: today's episode happen.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Bye bye bye