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Becoming Anchored S2E1: How to Have Hard Conversations · Becoming Anchored

0:06
Hi everyone, welcome back to the Becoming Anchored podcast.
0:09
We're so glad that you're here with us today.
0:12
I am Lauren Jackson.
0:13
This is Laura Dineen.
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We are your hosts.
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Um, and we just wanted to do a quick little intro.
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We work in a group private practice in Brentwood, Tennessee.
0:23
Um, we specialize in working with anybody from Six years old all
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the way through the lifespan.
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We see a lot of different presenting issues from anxiety, depression,
0:34
grief, and loss, OCD, eating disorders, life transition, you name it.
0:39
Um, so if you're in this area, we'd love to like connect and work with you.
0:44
Um, and quick disclaimer, this.
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Podcast is meant for informational purposes only.
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If you are finding that as you listen to our content, you might benefit
0:54
from therapy, like I said, reach out.
0:56
We'd love to connect and work with you.
0:58
If not, if you're not local to us, find somebody licensed near you.
1:03
Ah, thanks Lauren.
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So yeah, our practice Anchored Counseling Company, we're just south
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of Nashville in Brentwood, Tennessee.
1:10
Um, and we would love to connect with you, like Lauren said.
1:15
Lauren actually came to me almost a year ago now with this idea of starting
1:19
this podcast and it's been such a fun adventure for us to learn all the things
1:24
from the microphone setup to recording and um, yeah, we really are just here
1:29
to share in your joy and grief and to share from two different perspectives.
1:34
So we have the wonderful gift of sitting with clients.
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On a daily basis and it's such sacred work that we get to do so we have the
1:42
insight as therapists and then we're also just humans trying to do the best we can.
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And so we really are going to pull from our experiences as
1:51
first and foremost as human beings and then secondly as therapists.
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So thanks for being here.
1:56
If you're new to the show, we're super glad to have you guys here with us.
1:59
So for today's
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episode, we are going to be talking about how to have hard conversations.
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I'm chuckling as I'm sharing the title because I know for a lot of us, it
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can feel just so daunting and We as humans, I think are avoidant by nature
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and having a hard conversation or this, this topic of having hard conversations
2:44
maybe isn't something that we're super used to or comfortable with, but it does
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feel like an important one because I know that Lauren and I certainly have
2:55
hard conversations in our roles and I've certainly had to flex that muscle being
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a business owner more so than maybe I would have imagined like 10 years ago.
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So, if this is new for you, if it's uncomfortable for you, I
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just am here to say, like, I see you in that, and we are with you.
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Yeah, totally.
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Um, I think maybe it would be helpful to start out by even, like, you
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and I just defining what is a hard conversation, because I feel like that
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can mean a lot of different things.
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What is it, like, what comes to mind for you when you think of,
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like, what a hard conversation is?
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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Because it probably means something different to me who tends to be
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more like, who tends, who tends to be much more conflict avoidant.
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Sure.
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You know what I mean?
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Yeah.
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And I certainly used to be more conflict avoidant than I am now, right?
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But maybe my, my healthy self is more, maybe not like I'm like
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trying to find a conflict, but I'm, I lean in quite frequently.
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Um, but yeah, when I think of a hard conversation, I'm, I'm thinking of.
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maybe anything that causes me anxiety or where I'm having some
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type of physical response or physical sensations before entering into
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that space with another person.
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So we in the practice talk a lot about kind of this concept of embodiment.
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So really paying attention to what's happening internally.
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And so One, it doesn't really matter what the content of the conversation is because
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we could talk about hundreds of different conversations that may be hard, right?
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Maybe you're asking for a raise in your company or maybe you're
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telling a family member that you need to set a boundary with them.
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Whatever the content is, our bodies tend to respond in a certain way
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before we have conversations.
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So that's really a cue to me that Maybe the conversation I'm about
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to have is going to be hard.
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Is if I notice, like, my chest starting, my heart starting to beat a little
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faster, or maybe I notice, like, I will frequently feel a pit in my stomach.
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Um, those are kind of two primary bodily sensations that show up for me.
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And that can be a tell that, okay, this conversation might
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be, might be hard for me.
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What about you?
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Um, I, I tend to categorize.
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Well, yeah, okay.
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I tend to categorize hard conversations as anything,
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any, anything that I feel like
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might possibly, like, bump up against somebody else's stuff.
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So, so meaning any, any, anything that, um, I might say possibly,
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like, could potentially, like, ruffle somebody's feathers.
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can feel hard to me.
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Um, and it also, and this is probably true for a lot of people, um, the, the level
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of hardness of the conversation for me can also be dependent on who the person is.
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That I'm going to have that with.
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So, um, sometimes,
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so, this feels like a hard topic for some reason.
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Because, I don't know why, it feels hard.
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We're talking about having hard conversations and this
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conversation feels hard.
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For some reason, it feels hard for me to articulate and I'm not sure why.
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And I'm just being like super real and like honest right now.
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Um, um, but yeah, I think the, the, the.
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the person that perhaps this conversation or confrontation is with and then,
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um, who that person is also can determine the level of risk that is
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involved in having that conversation.
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So those are a few things that come to mind for me.
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I mean, like I said earlier, typically I just tend to be generally conflict
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avoided and I say that pretty loosely because like you said, Laura, I
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have gotten So much better at having these kinds of conversations and.
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Like innately in like my DNA, I, I just tend to like want to lean away,
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like that just is like my nature.
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So, um, it's my nature to lean away anytime I feel like I might say
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something or confront or, or assert in such a way that might cause
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discord or might cause, conflict.
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Um, tension or might cause a disruption of some sort.
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I'm a 9 on the Enneagram, so that probably gives you guys some
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context as to where I'm coming from.
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And maybe why I'm like having a hard time articulating.
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Um, but, I just, that The piece that I seek externally and internally is such
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a deeply rooted, wired thing for me.
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And so I just have to pay super close attention as to how that's showing up and
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how that potentially could be negatively impacting my needs, my relationships.
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Um, and the conversations I need to have.
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So, that was a little bit long winded.
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No, I mean, I'm tracking with you and I know that you can do it
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because we've had hard conversations.
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I've observed you have hard conversations.
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So, I really think that at the end of the day, you are really self aware
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and it is an intentional choice.
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Right?
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But circling back to what you said, I mean, yeah, I do think it matters.
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who's on the receiving end.
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So one thing that popped in my mind as you were talking was this
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concept of emotional safety, right?
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Like is the person on the other end, are they going to blow up at me if
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I, you know, bring something to their attention or are they going to do
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something afterwards that's passive aggressive or are they going to really
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lean in and hear my feedback and maybe Maybe it's hard to hear, but you
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can kind of see when someone's like digesting it, and sitting with it, and
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marinating on it, and reflecting on it.
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Like, those last few things that I mentioned, the latter, are really going
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to be signs of emotional health, right?
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Like, it might be hard to hear.
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I'm not saying we're jumping up and down around hearing feedback,
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but can we at least sit with it?
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Can we be with the feedback versus like running away or
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trying to fix it immediately?
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Mm hmm.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So the emotional safety on the other end, I mean, I for sure think that
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matters when we're, when we're walking into these types of conversations.
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Yeah.
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And even, I mean, that's such a great point because having hard conversations
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can be an act of vulnerability and we tend to be able to practice more vulnerability
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in safe spaces, in safe relationships when we are emotionally safe.
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Um, and so if we tend, if we do tend to maybe be conflict avoided,
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which you made a good point at the beginning too, Laura, that probably
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as humans, we tend towards avoidance of distress on a large scale, right?
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Um, um, and so where we know there is safety, emotional safety, physical safety.
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Those are great opportunities to practice and challenge leaning in
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and saying the thing that feels hard.
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Um, or asking the question that feels hard or, or engaging in the,
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you know, topic that feels hard.
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And even with that safety there, I can think of like, you know, five different,
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four or five different topics off the top of my head that, When it comes to
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like my husband and I, I have a great deal of safety with him in all areas
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and a few things, a few different topics, like money, for example, and
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I'm just getting like so used to it.
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Real, real with you guys.
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I love it.
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Feel, that feels really scary still and so, and I say that because we, we
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can, we can really have the most safety in the world with someone and, and a
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conversation can still feel really hard.
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Um, and there can be a lot of factors that go into maybe why that still feels hard.
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Um, you know, a topic like money is just big and, you know,
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scary and all of the things.
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Um, maybe there can be some underlying, you know, difficult emotions like shame
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or guilt, um, that are accompanying you in having that conversation.
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So I, you know, I say all of that just to like validate you can be with the
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safest person in the world, like your partner or your husband or your wife
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or whoever, and it can still It can still be just this like really tricky
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thing to like challenge yourself to do, even though maybe you know that the
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conversation is going to be good and it's going to be healthy and it's going to be
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productive and it's going to be important.
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It doesn't that that doesn't negate or invalidate like that
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physical visceral feeling that you were talking about earlier.
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Yeah.
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So if we go back to that topic, this kind of how to's, I mean, I think the first
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thing is really getting curious about.
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Um, the emotional safety of the other person, right?
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So if that's there and that's the Groundwork, right?
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And and not everyone is going to respond in a way that we love, right?
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But like you're talking about that that kind of self validation piece
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of yeah, this is going to be a really hard conversation And approaching
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even your own self, I think, with gentleness and patience, like before,
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during, and after that conversation is what you're really referencing, right?
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Just naming, okay, gosh, this is really hard for me.
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And I don't have to judge the fact that it's hard in and of itself, right?
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And one thing that we talk about in the practice at Anchored is really this idea
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of approaching versus avoiding, whether that's You know, challenging yourself
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to do the thing that you're afraid of or eating the food that feels really scary.
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And this is that same kind of concept.
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It's really looking at.
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Okay, can I approach this situation even though I really want to avoid, and can
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I approach this situation even though everything within me is like very scared?
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How do I not make a choice out of a place of fear?
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Right.
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One thing that I think about with hard conversations, so you referenced
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this a little bit, but I will also rate my own subjective unit of
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distress to kind of do some prep work.
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So if I'm like, okay, this conversation is going to be a nine out of 10, or is this
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conversation going to be a one out of 10?
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And then I will also ask myself what I'm hoping to get out of the conversation.
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Like kind of what my, what I'm wanting, what my, what I'm wanting
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to communicate in the conversation.
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maybe what I'm hoping the end goal of the conversation would be.
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And of course there's room for like flex if we're, if we're talking to another
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human because they have their own opinions and feedback, et cetera, et cetera.
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But really communicating in a clear and concise way is definitely a
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muscle that I've had to flex versus like taking five different like
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routes to get to the end point.
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Like, that's been something, the clearness and the conciseness, that's
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been something that I have really had to work on, along with asking
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myself, of like, hey, what's going on?
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What's the point of this conversation?
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Am I having this conversation because I want to guilt the other person,
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which hopefully we're not doing that or shame them, or am I having this
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conversation because I would like for something to change or I would like a
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component of our relationship to change?
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Yeah.
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And when Lauren says subjective unit of distress, she's just referring
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to like your own internal level of like, discomfort that you're feeling.
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And so we typically with clients will help them rate that on a scale of zero to 10.
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And so you can do that for yourself.
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Yeah.
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And there's something about that, like naming that I'm in distress, like,
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you know, whether it's a conversation with staff or, um, friend or family
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or whatever, there's something about that, that is really helpful for me.
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And I know this might not be the case for everyone, but There's something about
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just like saying, okay, this is going to be really hard and I can maybe practice
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radical acceptance around this idea that it's going to be really hard, right?
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I don't have to love this conversation.
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I don't have to want to do it, but I'm willing to do it for
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the sake of the relationship because I think it's important.
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Maybe I'm trying to model assertiveness skills, whatever it might be, right?
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So there's lots that goes into a hard conversation.
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Mm hmm.
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Yeah.
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Um, one of the things that we talk a lot about on the podcast, um, is this
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idea of building awareness and like introspective awareness, like internal
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awareness emotionally, physically, cognitively, um, with all of these
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different topics that we're talking about.
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Throughout these episodes, um, really before we can make change around
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anything, we do have to have awareness of what we're wanting to change first.
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And so if we notice that we tend to be conflict avoidant or we tend to shy
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away from those difficult conversations that we know maybe need to be had,
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um, it's important to first really build that internal awareness around.
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When am, when am I shying away?
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Like, when, when am I tending to do that?
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And, and how, how do I know?
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What is my body telling me?
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What are my emotions telling me?
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What are the thoughts that I'm having that help indicate to me that I'm doing the,
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like, leaning away versus the leaning in?
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Um, because building that awareness piece first is really going to, is really going
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to Be a helpful antidote to shame that can show up when we are trying to make change
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and that change isn't happening the way we want it to or the way like the, on the
18:30
timeline that we think it should, right?
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Um, building that awareness piece first helps us to have compassion for ourselves.
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around the, you know, the pattern of leaning away that we have like
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created or over the years or whatever.
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Um, and so I just know that that's like a theme that we kind of talk about,
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you know, that we bring up in each, in each episode is just this idea
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of, um, just building that internal awareness of our internal world
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and what's going on, um, to help us
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ourselves around all of these different topics that we talk
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about, like hard conversations.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And to tag along with what you're saying, that insight just feels so important.
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Um, and there's so many different things that could be kind of a sidebar
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today around what goes into making a conversation hard, just to kind of get
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your, your mind's, you know, you know, or your juice is flowing, so to speak.
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One thing that can be really helpful is to think about really the why in a curious
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way of what makes this conversation hard.
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Am I, am I afraid of disappointing that person?
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Am I, um, afraid of their emotional response?
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Am I afraid that they're going to be mad at me and I can't tolerate
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knowing that someone else is mad at me?
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Or is it more rooted in family of origin?
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Maybe you never had a parent or caretaker that modeled how to do that well, and
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so you're really having to Go back and kind of re teach yourself how to
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have hard conversations, especially if that wasn't modeled to you growing up.
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And this is what we talk about with clients, just, you know, that piece
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around assertive communication.
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Lots of us maybe grew up in passive homes or passive aggressive homes
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or even aggressive aggressive homes.
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So really leaning into that, that muscle of, practicing assertiveness skills
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can be really challenging, especially if we never grew up with that model.
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Totally.
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Yes.
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Um, this can, I love this that you bring up because, you know, it can tap on not
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only our present day, maybe experience of tending to be more peacekeeper, right?
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As well as that historical piece of, I, I, I need to be accepted or
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I'm scared of not being accepted.
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And that can, you know, that fear or whatever, whatever narrative
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that's there, maybe historically that has followed you into the
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present, um, can come from anywhere and can kind of sound like anything.
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And I think it's really important to, as you're building awareness.
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pay attention to.
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Maybe how, how historical is this thing that is wanting
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to keep me from leaning in.
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And again, these are, we're kind of getting, we're kind of
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pulling some layers back here.
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And so, um, these are all things that if you see a therapist, encourage you
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to explore with your therapist, right?
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Um, um, but, but then the, the work in the present is I can have this
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hard conversation, I can lean in, this other person, you know, can
22:13
have the reaction that they have, and I'm still accepted, right?
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Like that's, that's like that present work.
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Um, so I just love that point that you make, Laura, because it can tap,
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it can tap on the present and it can tap on something historical too,
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that we need to have some room for when we're building that awareness.
22:34
Mm hmm.
22:35
Or even maybe explain some of the distress, right?
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So if I have had hard conversations before and maybe they didn't go well,
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Maybe this conversation in and of itself isn't that hard, but what makes it
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harder is I've got that, that trauma memory network that is now associated
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with having hard conversations.
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Yeah, so being mindful of that piece I think is just really, really important.
23:00
Um, and then just taking care of ourselves.
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Um, I know that just with the hustle and bustle and jobs and kids and
23:08
spouses and bills and all the work life balance, all the things, right?
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But after we have a hard conversation, I do think it's really important to, um,
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connect with other people that know about the conversation, that can support you,
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that can, you know, Um, really process with you if, if that's available to you
23:30
and, and really take care of yourself.
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So really check in with yourself, like what are my takeaways?
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What would I say differently or do differently next time?
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Um, what, what is there to learn from this conversation?
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Was I wanting to like take care of that person when maybe
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that's not my responsibility?
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And then how can I tweak that and pivot just ever so slightly
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for the next conversation?
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So, Lauren and I are both all about learning and, and
23:57
growing in health promoting ways versus shameful ways, right?
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So, checking in with ourselves and then also taking care of ourselves after a
24:06
hard conversation can be really important.
24:12
So, I know that we talked about quite a bit.
24:15
We talked about, you know, what, what's the fear, validating conversations are
24:20
hard, maybe some family of origin stuff that is impacting your ability to have
24:26
hard conversations, whatever it might be.
24:28
We hope this was helpful for y'all.
24:31
Um, y'all know that at the end of each episode, we give
24:34
some homework and affirmation.
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So your homework from me is to go have a hard conversation and you don't
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have to start with a conversation that is a level nine or 10 out of 10.
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We want you to build your confidence.
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So we always encourage Starting like with a 1 out of 10 or a 2 out of
24:53
10 and then work your way up that subjective unit of distress scale that
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we talked about today because that helps all of us build our confidence.
25:02
So that's just a side note and kind of a quick little, um,
25:06
additional piece for the homework.
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Um, think about your subjective unit of distress.
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have that hard conversation that maybe you've been avoiding and
25:14
challenge yourself to approach it.
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And then Lauren has a quick affirmation for y'all.
25:18
Yeah, so um, I'll just leave you guys with really simply, you are capable of
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leaning into difficult conversations.
25:29
So good.
25:30
Yeah.
25:31
So important.
25:32
I'm going to take that with me today too.
25:34
Great.
25:35
Me too.
25:35
Thanks for being here.
25:36
Yeah, truly.
25:37
Both of us are.
25:38
Thanks for being here, you guys, on the Becoming Anchored podcast.
25:41
We're so honored that you are listening and taking time out of your
25:44
day to be with us and um, take care.
25:47
Bye guys.
25:48
Bye.
25:49
Bye.