Latest / To All the Men I've Tolerated Before / Summer Break: Fair Play and Weaponized Incompetence Replay

Transcript

Summer Break: Fair Play and Weaponized Incompetence Replay · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey Tolerators, it is officially our summer break for twenty
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: twenty five, and I just wanted to let you know
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: that the episode you're about to hear is either Patreon
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: exclusive content I'm making public an episode I thought it
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: would be fun to revisit from past years, or a
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: still comfy movie review with Julia Washington. I hope you
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: have a great summer with lots of great memories. I
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: hope you keep smiling instead of tolerating, and I will
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: see you in the fall with all new episodes of
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: To All the Men I've Tolerated before, Hey Tolerators, this
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: is to All the Men I've Tolerated Before with Natalie Katona,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: the show where my guests and I chat about how
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: society will truly allow men to get away with anything
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: and then applaud them for their low efforts. Today, my
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: guest is one of my favorite creators. Laura Danger, is
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: an educator and fair play advocate. When you follow her
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: on any of her social media's, you will see a
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: lot of content directed at men who claim to be
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: a little too helpless when it comes to domestic life
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: and all the work that comes with it. And that's
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: what we'll be talking about today. Thanks for being here.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Laura, I am beyond thrilled. Let's talk about it.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about it. So what led you to being
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: a fair First off, can you explain to the crowd
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: what a fair play advocate is? Because I'm sure people
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: are like preschool time where they make you share in.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So fair Play is a book written by
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: author Eve Rodski. She has a background from Harvard. She
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: does she builds systems and helps big like multi general
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: generation wealthy families organize and so she's really great at
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: communication and systems. She developed this way to discuss the
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: mental load because so many of us fall into these
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: default roles where it's like, Okay, tell me how to help,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: or make me a list, or just remind me how
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: to do it. And it's a system. It's a set
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: of tools, set of communication tools that helps solve that.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Of course, what we are going to talk about a
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: little bit is like you can't drag someone to the party. No,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: So I've got tools, but I also am fully aware
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: that not everyone's going to use those tools well.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: And I think when it comes to the make me
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: a list or give me very clear instructions, like people
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: don't understand that that is also a mental and emotional
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: load that you are asking a person to do for
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: you in order to be helpful.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's still work. Sometimes it's more work to
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: tell you what to do and to just do it myself.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: I am aware of like people who have had to
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: make what I would call substitute plans because I used
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: to teach when having to leave their children or maybe
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: even just like a dog with their partner. Yeah, it's
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: like you had to make a packet. I remember my
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: mom having to like lay out our clothing in little
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: people forms because my dad didn't I guess understand that
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: shirts went on my torso and pants went on my butt.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw a TikTok the other day someone tagged
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: me in it where it was like this is this
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: like organized her and was like we're going on vacation
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: or I'm going out of town. That's what I was,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: I'm going out of town. Here's how you make sure
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: that your kids are dressed properly. And she made bags
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: just like what you're saying, with like underwear socks, but
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: like get this, Okay, I do it too, So we'll
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: get into that yes, but I do. I like, I
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: make mistakes all the time. Just yesterday, my six year
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: old came downstairs. I usually dressed the two year old.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: The six year old came downstairs and wasn't wearing socks,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: and he was like one hundred dollars, try to guess
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: who who got Charlie dressed today? And I was like,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: oh my god, I forgot her socks again, Like I
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: never remember to put socks on this kid, because I mean,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: like some of us have different values that were grown
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: up with and I'm like, dirty foot.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Kid, Yeah, I'm right there with you. But it's so
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: great that you brought up mistakes because that's what I
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: was mulling over today while I was vacuuming, is this
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: idea of so we make mistakes all the time, and like,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: I think women do a little bit of internalizing that
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: we make a mistake. Where when you're looking at your
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: male partner and you've made him realize like, hey, they
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: need a jacket, it's fifty degrees. A lot of the
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: situations I've been in is watching that grown man then
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: be like it's never enough and you're always complaining and
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: I try so hard and it's like no one said
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: you weren't trying.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Asked you to get a jacket from the closet.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's this, Like I don't know, so should
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: we name it? Should we name what it?
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Let's name it? Yeah.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: So the term I usually use is weaponized incompetence, Yes,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: but I really appreciate you also that weaponized helplessness.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: And it's so that where you're like, Okay, I need
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: you to do the laundry, I need you to not
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: fuck it up, right, And then they're like, it's never enough.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Remind me how to do it. How do you expect
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: me to be able to do this?
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: I worked all day. I worked all day, and my
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: boss is a dick. This is like coming straight from
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: my childhood and my home. I hate my job. I
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: work so I don't have to be the person who's
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: doing all of this, and now you're asking me to
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: do this.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah I do. I work so hard all day and
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: then you expect me to have a second job when
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: I get home.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Meanwhile, I've balanced eight jobs. I've been nanny, cook, nurse,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I've done it all.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Right, right, and like, when's my time off? Right?
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: I feel like we talk a lot on the podcast
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: about how it comes off as anger and it comes
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: off as this like righteousness like I shouldn't have to.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: But what it really boils down to is we don't
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: teach people how to deal with shame and that gut
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: reaction of like oh did I do something wrong? And
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: I think when I'm ashamed of something, I just like
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: quietly go into the shower to cry and no one
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: needs to know it can just stay with me. But
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: when other people feel shame, it's just this like volatile
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: like how dare you make me feel like I did
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: something wrong?
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, have you ever been to couples counseling with someone? No?
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I've never had anyone invested in me enough to see
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: my therapist.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: I okay. Well, from what I hear from a lot
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: of people is and I have a couple's counselor, but
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: he's never said this to us, which is like, oh,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: it's like the cycle of shame. It's like telling the
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: person who is the default or the person who's being
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: asked to write a list reteach all that be the director.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: They're putting the responsibility on that person to present it
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: more kindly. Yeah, or like yeah, just like you should
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: appreciate the small steps toward equity and stuff. And it's like, no, no,
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Also I don't know how to make Hey, could you
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: please get a jacket out of the closet, kinder like
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: I just like I don't want to preface that with Hey,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: you over there, you managed to put long pants on
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: the kid, and that's fantastic. Or hey, you big old
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: you with the good brain. Uh, you managed to put
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: all of the dishes in the dishwasher. You didn't turn
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: it on and you didn't unload it, but you put
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: them all in there.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: That's that's the part that kills me. And I made
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: a video about it the other day and I called
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: it the nag paradox. And it's like when one partner
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: continuously drops the ball, doesn't complete a task, isn't doing
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: follow through asks for a list, and is unreliable, and
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: then when the partner gets frustrated or refuses to remind them,
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: or opts out completely and says, I'm not even gonna
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: ask you anymore. Right, they are a nag. They're frigid,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: they're cold, they're they're angry for no reason. Overreacting. It's like,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: would you pick one right, need me or not right?
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: And also can you talk about how literally unattractive it
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: is to raise your partner and then to also baby
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: your partner through every step of your day. Yeah, it's
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: just it sets up this dynamic, and I I am
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: very lucky to where I've for the most part, lived
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: my adult life in my own home, where every decision
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: was on me. It's created this spearadox that when other
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: people plan things, I'm constantly like running a rubric in
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: my head, like that's not what I would have chosen
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: to do. How does that make sense for the plan
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: of today's goal to all of a sudden be here
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: doing this instead of closer to where we were supposed
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: to be. I have so many friends where it's like,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: would you like to play twenty questions with me on
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: why my husband is giving me the silent treatment? Because
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I also don't know. So let's just run through what
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I may have done with his fragile, fragile ego to
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: where he's just checked out of our family.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the place where I see this weaponized helplessness
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: and weaponized incompetence has mostly been in online through these
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: videos that make jokes about it. Right, at work very
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: frequently and through like friends whose husbands are like the
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: it's like the al Bundy or like it's like so
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: over the top, and I'm like, is it a bit
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: like why are you with this person that doesn't respect you?
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Hard to watch.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: I love that you brought in work because I have
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: constantly had to work for men, and that means that
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I have constantly had to walk them through making an
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: online food order and I'm like no, I was like,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: you've never been on door dash before? And they're like,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I just how do I know how many bagels that
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna want for the event? And it's like you
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: just kind of guess, yes, you kind of ballpark how
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: many people are going to be there and how you
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: want the bagels cut. And then you arrive at a
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: number and they're like, oh, but like I don't know
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: what kind of cream cheese do we need? And it's
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: like any of them? And then you sit there and
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: you're like, I'll just do it. I'll figure out the like,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: and then they hover over you because not only are
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: they You're like, not only are they feinny incompetent and
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: they're two above you to make the catering order. They
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: also don't trust that your little brain will make the
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: catering order the exact way they've pictured it in their brain.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so okay. In fair Play, there's a really
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: interesting piece that I don't cover much because there's so
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: much nuance to it, Like I can cover it in
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: coaching if I'm working directly with somebody, but it's really
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: hard to sum up. So it's this like hero where
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: And this used to happen with my husband and I
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: when we first had a baby, because like he would work,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: he worked twelve to thirteen hour days, and then I
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: was fully home and so I would develop all of
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: these systems and things that worked for me and the baby,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: and then he would come in and I'd be like,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I need you to be engaged with this, I need
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: you to help. As pre fair Play things have gotten
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: so much better. But he would jump in and he
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: would do it differently without consulting me. Okay, And it
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: was part of like you said, it was like part
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: of that pride thing and also like wanting to feel
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: like a confident partner and a confident parent, but we
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: were missing this step where like, Okay, I know that
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: it's really hard to ask your wife and parent of
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: your child, like what should I do here? But also,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I've had seven months at home with this baby, and
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: I've read the books and I've practiced these things, and
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: I actually am kind of the expert here, So you
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: need to stop being the hero and like swooping in
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: and coming up with some totally new plan.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: And so that was where like all of the hot
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: button issues like feeling incompetent, undermining each other, not communicating clearly,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: and then like that's where my couple's therapists would be like,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: can you just congratulate him on being I'm not saying
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: they did say this. I'm saying if I had a
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: shitty one, they would say like, yeah, just be grateful
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: instead of like, oh, okay, here's the miscommunication was cleared up.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Right, No, my friend has told me that that's what
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: she went through. They were like, well, have you ever
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: just tried I believe it was have you ever just
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: tried to model gratitude to him? And went no, because
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I modeled gratitude to my six year olds and he's
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: around and.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: It's like, okay, okay, this is a thing. I don't
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: think that as many men are taught empathy correct, and like,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: that's just an unfortunate reality of the thing.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: And now we've gotten and now it's leaked everywhere. We
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: talk about empathy all the time and how I crave
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: it in my everyday interactions with people.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it's like, why does the dude at work
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: think that you know better? Why does he think you're
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: more perceptive? Why does he think you have the time?
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, uh huh, but you're not any You've been in
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: the world, existing in a workplace and ordering bagels for
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: the same amount of time he has. Why are you
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: the expert?
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Well? And one time the same man reprimanded me because
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: he knew more context about one of the families coming
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: to our camps than I did, so then he had
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: to correct my work based on the common text he
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: was given. And then I sat there and went, I
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: have talked to that child's father. I have talked to
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: that child's mother. This grandmother is a new person, but
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: I just talked to her today. But in all of
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: the conversations, I sat with them and walked through all
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: of our paperwork with a parent or guardian attached to
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: this child. And now you're screaming at me. Because they
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: called you pissed off and then gave you eighteen new
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: facts about allergies and dietary restrictions and budgetary concerns and
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: all of it, and now you're mad because I didn't
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: read that in their scenario. He goes, I just really
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: feel like you could have asked more leading questions and
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: go more leading questions than filling out the goddamn paperwork
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: for them.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like just not great leadership, no at all.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: He was toxic. We talked about it often.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The thing that so I'm gonna also like throw
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: this out there that one of the biggest examples of
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: this that I've seen at work was my supervisor and
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: it was a woman. She was in a supervising role
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: over me in a special education So I don't know
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: for the audience if you don't know, part of the
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: role of being a special educator is writing a huge,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: like a forty page document about each child you get.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: You have to update it every year, You track their data,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: consult with clinicians. It's like a huge multi week thing.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: And then even you're collecting data for longer than that,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: there's a database online where you log in and it's
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: like a million complicated pieces. If you don't save it right, yeah, sucks.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: So there are also very very strict laws about a
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: ton of it. As a special care I have to
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: know all of those laws and how to do it.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: As a supervisor, you need to lead the special education
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: teachers and how to do this because you are responsible
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: for coaching, collaborating and getting everybody's voices in a timely
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: manner on the document and then collaborate with the parents.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: She didn't know how to make an IEP never that's
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: the document, that's a document, had never in her entire
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: career made one, and would ask repeatedly for people to
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: coach her through it. So not only did she not
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: make it, she needed someone to give her an example regularly,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: and so it was double triple work. Instead of just
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: being like, can you do it? I would rather just
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: freaking do it for you exactly, And I think so
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: does the fair play the person who wrote that book,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: are they also the person who came up with the spoons?
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Like everyone has six spoons no both of energy a day,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: and if I give you my spoon, I'm left with
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: five spoons to then give the cat the dishes and
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: vacuumine or something.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: You didn't come up with that, but that's such a
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: brilliant Oh. I've heard people say I'm out of spoons.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: I'm out of spoon. It's very trending. It's like you
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: get like everyone has their own like selection of spoons,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and every time you do something within your day, you
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: give away a spoon. I'm convinced that because I'm obsessed
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: with the number three, I either have three spoons to
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: nine spoons, depending like three, six or nine, depending on
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: how well I've slept and taken care of myself. But
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: it's one of those things. And I think where I
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: get frustrated is this feeling where it's like I've never
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: been allowed to be hopeless a day in my life,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: and when I have asked for help, I've been looked
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: at like I have reheads. So my mother is a
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: special education teacher, so I know how to self accommodate
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: for myself because I was also a teacher. But sometimes
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: you'll have to heads up the person who determines your
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: pay grade and be like, hey, this is the thing
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: that I struggle with, and therefore I am going to
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: need it double checked by you. And I'm crossing my fingers.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: That gets done with kindness. So for me, it's spatial awareness.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I can't lay anything straight. I can't. I had to
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: edit these resources guides from our marketing team, and my
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: supervisor would just be able to notice spacing things or
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: like that seems cocked weird or whatever, and I have
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: no clue. I can't. I can't tell you if anything
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: is spaced weird or aligned weird or whatever. But he
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: was constantly and then he would like end his look
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: over of it. I do the grammar, the lessons, all
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: of it, and I'd write all the copy for it,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: and he'd look over it and be like, I can't
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: believe that you missed that this should be over seven
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: eighths seven inch, And I'm like, mm hmm, I also
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: can't believe that I missed that the scene. As I
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: told you that, I am not a spatial learner at all,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: And so it's one of those things where it's I
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: have put down my vulnerability and kind of worked through
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: my own shame to go, I'm going to make mistakes
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: in this, and when it comes to the weaponized helplessness,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: it's I get to be helpless. I'm going to stay helpless,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: and if you try to push me past my helplessness,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna yell at you for trying to challenge me
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: and make me feel small.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm, Yeah, that word helpless is so interesting to me. Uh.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: There's the study I recently found that basically says that like,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: in a room where there are men and women at work,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: if somebody asks for a volunteer, almost one hundred percent
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: of the time, women will volunteer. But like even if
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: women wait for a long period of time and wait
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: for men to volunteer, they won't. But in a room
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: of all men, some men will volunteer. And it's so
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: interesting that you say, like you've not been allowed to
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: be helpless, and I agree, and like, you know, we
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: were raised like as white women. It's like as a
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: white woman, I'm like, uh, I need to be as
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: good as or better than the men in the room.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And then it's like worse and double awful when you're
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: a black woman in a room and you have to
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: be like a double triple better than everyone else and
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: the expectation on you is so heavy.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, what gets me
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: about this weaponized incompetence is you don't value my labor
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: at all. I am constantly being told why is this
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: a big deal? Or why wasn't that easier for you?
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Or why are you talking about that now, because you
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: don't value my opinions or my labor. But then when
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: asked to do a small piece of the labor that
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: I do every day, you're like, I don't even what
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: do you mean? Some things have to be hand washed,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: and some things can just go on the machine, and
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: it's like, well it's on a tag. Now I have
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: to read a tag.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Hmm. Yeah, that's the piece that kills me, which is like,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: why why is it a big deal? If you just
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: like order the bagels? Can you just order the bagels?
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Because it's like it's a big deal because it's so
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: much of a big deal to you that you you
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: have no time for it, right, But you're saying I do,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: so is it not a big deal? Or is it
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: too big of a deal? I don't get it right?
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Is it important? Or are you too important to feel
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: like you can go on the internet and make a
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: call about catering right?
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: And then I love when there's no ally in the
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: room and other women will just tell you well, why
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: didn't you just refuse to do it?
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, because if I refuse to do it, and a
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: lot of friends have told me, like I've bowed out
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: and I've waited to see how long those dishes will
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: sit in the sink and guess what I got to
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: week two and when I can't do it one more day?
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And okay, So there was a survey that came
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: out and I am not this is not a paid sponsorship,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: but pure Leaf Tea. I don't know when this is
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: coming out? Do you know when? Okay, so hopefully this
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: will have already happened, because.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Oh you mean my episode, I thought, yeah, the pure
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Leaf survey. No, I also don't have any idea. It
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: should be August September ish.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, then this is this is excellent. Great. So Pureleaf
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: is launching this campaign and I'm really excited. I am
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: going to be a small part of it. They are
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: literally paying for specifically women to learn how to say
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: no at work. Yeah, because there is like they did
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: a survey and it's like fifty percent of women feel
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: like they can't say no because there will be a
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: negative repercussion. And it's probably like seventy percent, but they're
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: thirty percent of them legitimately do face repercussions at work,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: like being passed over, being seen as not a team player.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: It's like, you're just gonna let people sit back and
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: let women do that.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: So the other side of that is that this company
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: is also coaching corporate leaders to be better at accepting no. Yeah, Like,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: how cool is that?
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Is so cool? Because cool? I think what ends up
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: happening is if it can happen in the corporate capitalists world,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: it can trickle home and it's like, oh, if my
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: administrative assistant can also tell me no, yeah, then the
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: caretaker of my children can also say nah, I got
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: to tap out for an hour.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Nobody likes to be told no, especially when it
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: means you have to do more work. Yes.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: And in my youth childhood home, some people had bigger
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: pies than others. So if you asked someone who had
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: a very very small pie to do more work or
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: to try and divvy out that pie to more people
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: than it was like an immediate meltdown because they're like,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: but I already did this stuff, and you're like mm hmmm, yeah,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: I know you fed four people, but eight people showed
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: up to the party, so I don't know what to
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: tell you.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: It's a great one. Yeah. That also ties back to
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: like socially, you know, so many of us were raised
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: to think of our roles as like you can have
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: it all. You can have a family and a career
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: and like power suits, and because that's the dream of
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: our mothers. And then men have just been like be
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: a provider. Yeah, but they don't. They aren't. It's not
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: explained what that means. Like financially, you bring home the bacon,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: but in this world you need to have dual incomes
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: to have a family. An Yeah, yeah, it's like just
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: bringing home the bacon isn't enough.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Right, You also have to provide teachable moments for your children, love, affection,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: all of it. I love the paradigm in a home
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: where a mother has run themselves ragged trying to do
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: their job, cook dinner, clean the bathroom, all of it.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: And then in Waltz's their provider, big man with the bacon,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and he immediately like slumps onto the couch and goes, oh,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: thank god. All I've wanted to do today is watch
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: three episodes of Game of Thrones so I can decompress,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: and he has allowed those three hours to just sit
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: there and children are crawling around, Sticky things are happening
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: all over the home that was just cleaned, and he's
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: just like, ugh, I cannot wait for John Snow to
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: just soothe me away from my very very hard day
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: sitting in a cubicle.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's and even you know what I did. I
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: dug into research about this because they say that in
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: a corporate environment, most people only focus on work three
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: hours out of the day. And I looked into construction
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: because a lot of blue collar guys are like, Okay,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: this doesn't apply to me, but it does.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: It does because the union makes sure that you have
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: fifteen minute breaks a lot of the day.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: And what I looked into was like, specifically, how often
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of people stand around on job sites. Yeah,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: and so, like, everybody works hard and I'm not trying
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: to minimize that. And I I know that like bricklaying
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: is a lot of work and things like that, but
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: it's just really funny the idea that like being home
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: with children is not labor at all.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: This is Natalie Katona, host of the podcast To All
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: the Men I've Tolerated Before, Are you a business owner
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: that would like to start advertising on podcasts and want
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: to work one on one with the podcast host to
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: crap the perfect message for your business on an episode.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Well you're in luck. I'm a one woman operation and
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: I have acs based open on future episodes of To
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: All the Men I'm Tolerated Before. If you are interested
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: in learning more about booking an ad with our show,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: please email me at men I've Tolerated Before at gmail
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks, and I can't wait for our future collaborations.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: And so I got tagged in some women's post. I
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: took it down because she directly requested that I did.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do that anytime if I'm causing harm
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: and to take it down. But this woman, she's got
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: two kids. She's got like a baby and a toddler,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: and she's like, my husband came home and then he
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: fell asleep. I've been home all day with the kids.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: And then I woke his ass up and then he
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: put water on the stove, started to boil. It didn't
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: even put the pasta in, and I got so frustrated
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: I sent him back to bed and at like eleven pm,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: he's gonna wake up and play video games once I've
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: put the fed them and put them to bed, and
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: then she goes. But I love him, like I'm not mad, right,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: It's like, dude, you're allowed to be furious about that.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: It's the that for me. It's I love when someone
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: will sit down and go but you just don't know
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: he's one of the good ones. Oh, then I don't
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: want any of them. I don't want any of them. Ah.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: And then my friends when I say it, and I'm like,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: you won't catch this lady married and you won't catch
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: her walking towards the man to do it, And they're like, well,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: don't you just think that you're letting all of the
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: oppressive systems and your trauma win. Then and it went yes,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: because they taught me better.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, like maybe it's my survival instinct.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Can I don't want to sleep behind enemy lines anymore,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: which is gonna get me so much trouble. When the
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: men actually clue into this content happening, they're gonna be like, aha,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: we finally got you to admit that we're the enemy,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: and now we will droll you.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: No, it's the patriarchy. The patriarchy is the enemy. Yes,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: and we've not individual men. It's they've explained it to
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: you that it's your enemy, it's our enemy. Everyone would
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: be getting laid more if you just stop gatekeeping and
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: you valued us. We're just trying right and like, okay,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: so back to fair play. One really interesting benefit that
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: came of introducing it for us was like, I've been
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: home the last three days. I have cleaned out a huge,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: like weird walking closet that we have taken everything out,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: sorted multiple years of backed up kids clothes, identified three
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: people to donate them to of different ages, sorted them
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: into boxes, repainted the entire closet, and put everything back.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: So my kids go to bed in a safe room.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: That so when my husband came home literally zero, things
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: looked different because I had put it. I put everything back.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: I had sorted the things into the basement, onto the
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: back porch, and then into the car so that I
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: could distribute. And if he didn't understand the labor like,
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: I told him out loud what I did, and I
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: was like, I just worked for seven straight hours and
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: did all of these amazing things. You're welcome. He actually understands.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Like he came home and I didn't do the dishes,
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: and I didn't do laundry, and anybody else who didn't
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: understand or hadn't become aware of how time consuming and
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: also important that other piece was like we I covered
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: up lead paint. That was the whole reason I did
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: the project. He could have just come home and been like,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: you're constantly bugging me about the dishes and then your
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: home all day and you don't get them done. But
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: instead he was like, no, I totally get it. Your
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: task prioritizing and supporting our kids' needs and doing this
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: big project like he sees it now, that's like the
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: biggest benefit of a system like this is like makes
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: that invisible stuff very visible.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: So what are the tools that fair Play has? Is
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: it open communication? Is it explaining the labor? Is it
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: what does that look like in a home?
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: So the book had the book actually goes through There
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: are one hundred cards, and I have like a worksheet
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: with them listed. There are sixty cards if you are
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: just a couple, and then there's forty additional if you
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: have kids, And basically it's like, here are all of
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: the things you need to do to run a house.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Some of them are repeated multiple times a day, like eating.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Some of them only happen once in a while, like
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: dealing with home insurance. And then you go through and
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: it's like a card game and you talk about each one.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: So it's like, okay, dishes, what is our family expectation
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: for dishes? And so you're like, okay, it should be
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: done once a day. The pots need to be prioritized,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: and preferably the entire sink would be empty and like
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: clean the trap emptied. And then so that's called setting
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: the minimum standard of care. And then you talk about
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: what that takes. So you'd be like, okay, that means
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: making sure there's soap. You go around the house and
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: you collect all the dishes, you wash them, you dry them,
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: you put them away within a twenty four hour period.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: And if it doesn't get done, I'm not stepping in.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: It's all you. Yeah. And so it like it sparks
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: these conversations so that you actually understand, And this is
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: why it's applicable at work, because it's like, Okay, what
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: does ordering bagels take? Yeah, you think it's just blogging
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: online and somehow miraculously I just like know what to
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: order or am I putting time and energy into checking
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: with allergen issues, getting everyone's preference, estimating how many people
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: will be there, to upsetting the schedule, like let's talk
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: about it, let's.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Talk about it, and oh my gosh, I love the
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: card game where it's just like okay dishes because when
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: I was a child, my parents would make fun of
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: me because it's like they'd say, go look for your shoes,
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: and they'd be like, it's like you and your sister
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: are just looking up at the ceiling and then for
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: two seconds and then going we couldn't find them. And
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: it's like, because at some point there does have to
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: be an expectation set about when you say clean your
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: room to a child, that could mean I picked up
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: three things off the floor and it looks better to me.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So to bridge that gap between what's in
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: my head and what's in your head. There's just so
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: much mindreading expectation in the way that we run relationships,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: whether they be professional friendships, romantic partnerships, any of it
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: that it's like, no, you actually have to speak Yeah,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: and that's an.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Old one that like makes my hair stand up, my son,
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: and which is that I'm not a mind reader. Yeah,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: but I think what is underneath that is like, I'm
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: not a mind reader. Means somebody wants you to make
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: a list for them. But realistically, if you're not a
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: mind reader, then please help me facilitate this conversation, right
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: so we can explicitly decide. So when I say you
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: got the dishes this week, you're not just like, okay,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: but remind me the next day. Yeah, Like we know
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: the expectations, we set an end, you have it for
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: the entire week, and then it's like I'm gonna you
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: know what you said, you got it. Yeah, I'm not
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: going to bother you.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: You got it. You got it. Yeah, Because I think
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of the time, because I can be so petty,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: no same and a lot of the time the pettings
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: comes from the So you really thought that that was
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: the way to do it, okay, But if you're having
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: these conversations about it, and then you're having those conversations
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: once and you're like, I'm taking this off of my
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: mental emotional load. Yes, I need you to know that
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: I'm not taking time for it. I'm setting up the boundary.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: I'm like, there will be no spoons assigned to the dishes.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: It creates such a more open atmosphere than just both
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: of you see them, because one person really thought that
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: they accomplished a task and one person still thinks the
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: kitchen is a disaster.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Right, And that's like the super tricky part. Pull it
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: back to mistakes, because even when you have these conversations,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: it's not going to be perfect. But one of the
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: really important pieces is like deciding why something happens and
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: then trying to get buy in. Yeah. So for me,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: my husband's always like, you didn't get the kids socks,
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: And I'm always like, well, in the summer, she's just
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: gonna take her shoes off anyway, and it's easier to
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: slide them on and off and her socks won't get
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: wet if she plays in the yard. So for me,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: that's the last thing on my mind. But for him,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: he's like, I have ruined so many pairs of shoes
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: by putting my stinky socks less feet shoes. And I
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: was like, okay, fair, I don't want her, like, let's
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: teach her that she can take her socks off when
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: she goes outside, And like I still forget because it
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: is just not ingrained in me yet. But I'm not like,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: I'm not like forget you, like your standards are too high.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: It's like crying about it. I'm like, sorry, I got it,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: and I go get her socks.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: It's just like a lot of score keeping. I don't
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: know if that's capitalism that made us all decide to
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: keep score in our marriages and our parentee. Yeah, yeah,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: but we're not in competition with one another. We've all
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: chosen to live in this house together, So why are
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: we constantly like giving points and taking away points? I
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: think it's so cool. One of the coolest things that
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: I think you do is you calmbat how weaponized incompetence
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: is just cute in our media. So like when someone
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: posts about like look at him, he's holding that baby
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: upside down. Yes, he's so silly, Like he doesn't know
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: that that baby's head should be in the air. You
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: just immediately do it and you're like, that's not silly,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: it's not silly, and it's not cute. Why is he
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: holding your baby by the ankle? And why has it
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: not been set said to him that baby's heads need
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: to be in.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: The air, Like yeah, and you know that's I've learned.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: I've learned when I had a smaller following, I could
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: do it and stitch people directly because it was fine
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: and it wouldn't direct my followers there. Yeah, but now
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I specifically pull video down, erase the user name, and
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: I comment, and I'm trying to like comment on whatever
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: joke they're making. Yeah, like you said where, I'm not
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: like you're an incompetent asshole. I'm now I try to
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: be Like, pretending that you don't know how to take
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: care of your kids is dumb?
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Right? Why is that baby upside down?
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: It's the like, for example, there is this trending sound
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: that drives me nuts. It's it's like mom's eating dinner,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Dad's eating dinner, and it's like the mom not being
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: able to eat anything with three kids, and the dad
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: just like enjoying his beer.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: It's that scene in a Christmas Story where he says
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: out loud, my mother hasn't had a hot meal since
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: forty two, or like whenever that movie takes place.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's or like a why is that funny
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: to you? Right? What's funny about that? And what I
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: appreciate is like I have a handful of men who
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: follow me. I try as often as I can to
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: highlight like the ways in which other men and other
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: partners push back on that, and I wish I could
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: do it more. But like like when I would immediately
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: the second meal would come out when I had both babies,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: they'd be hungry. I'd be like, great, now I have
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: to nurse a baby while trying to eat a hamburger right,
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: or like and my husband would, because he was not busy,
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: he would cut everything up for me and be like,
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: do you want me to eat first? Or do you
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: want to eat first? And then would like either feed
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: me or he'd eat fast so that he could then
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: take the baby and I could have a baby off
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: of me while I eat. That's adorable and it's not abnormal.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: But that doesn't get like that's not like a joke,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Like it's not funny. Haha. Yeah, doesn't have to be
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: that way. It's like when you're at.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: The playground and a dad pushed his kid on the
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: swing three times and all of the women are like
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: gasping and droolling over him. I like to counter that
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: idea with like, well, is he a good dad or
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: is he the guy that like makes your kids laugh
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: five minutes every day yeacause where's that guy gonna be
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: for a parent teacher conference or map homework?
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: That's that's a really interesting piece of it. And there
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: is a whole genre of mom influencers and they like
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: rely on martyrdom. Yeah, and there's this one who I
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: think is like possibly, I don't know. It seems like
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: she's like in it might be religion. I'm not going
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: to try to make any judgments there, but whatever culture
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: she is a part of, it's like putting their male
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: partners wellness first. And she does this video series where
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: it's reframes and it's like it's like, uh, it's it's
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: not too overwhelming to do the cooking and the cleaning.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: It's like, here's the reframe you're providing for a joyful
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: experience for your family. And then it's like you don't
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: need to be frustrated at your husband for coming home
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: and not helping, and it's like he's having joyful time
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: with the kids, and it's all these like.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, toxic positivity.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, well, maybe if he made dinner then
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: you could play with your kids, right, or like make
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: dinner a fun activity for you.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: I have a friend who's like five year old has
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: learned how to sew because she also likes just so,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: so it's like we drew on fabric and we were like,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: this is how you like do the needle in all
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: of it. And she makes better things than I do
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: at five years old. That's so cool and it is
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: so cool. She's one of the most amazing moms I've
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: ever encountered. But like she also likes to bake and
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: can and cook and all of that stuff brings her joy,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: but she somehow also incorporated it to where the five
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: year old also finds some sort of joy or fun
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: in that. So a kid is being monitored, but you're
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: all but you're not losing any time in that you're
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: doubling down on activities.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, like the other piece of
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: that is if you have a partner, they could be
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: like the safety person and like get your five year
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: old out of there if they start being overwhelming, so
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: that you can still protect the activity that you like.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because I have gotten overwhelmed with my I'm
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: the oldest grandchild on my mother's side, and when I
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: was tasked to me Christmas cookies, I kicked every child
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: out of the kitchen.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: I was like, no, Yeah.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I was like, y'all are talking. Y'all have moved my spoons,
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: like you have flour everywhere. Get out of grandma's kitchen.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: And they're like, we're always allowed on grandma's kitchen. I'm like, no,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: I'm in charge of grandma's kitchen tonight, and you all
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: have to go because if you want cookies, this is
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: how they're going to be me.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: The other thing to your point of like pushing the
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: kid on the swing is like I remember maybe a
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: year ago a video went viral when a dad braided
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: his daughter's hair, and it was like, you're giving me
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: an incredible example of your friend, like fully executing an
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: incredible task, which is like boiling water, sanitizing jars, canning,
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: pickling with a five year old. Yeah, and I don't know.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't see that viral video. We didn't show up
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: on my four you page.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Right, And so the TikTok of a man braiding his
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: daughter's hair and that becoming like the sensation of the year.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: To relate it to single women and single people, this
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: is a TikTok that haunts me every day. It's a
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: man confused as to why a woman was scared of
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: him in the gym parking lot. Did you see it?
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: I that was like when I first got on TikTok
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: and I raged. Oh my, he said, tell me all
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: about your Oh He's like, hi, just so I was
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: at the gym today, and he's clearly like flabbergasted. He's
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: like I was at the gym today and I was
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: walking behind a woman who was also like walking to
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: her car in the gym, and she kept like eyeing
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: me like I was going to attack her or whatever.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: And then she kept like trying to make it so
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: I was walking in front of her so she could
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: see me. And I just don't understand where this has
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: all gone wrong, and men, do.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: We need to be better? And then the comments that
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for being an ally, Yes, thank
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: you so much for caring about her safety, my safety,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: and the safety of all of us. I go no,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: because he's not talking to his bros. Like he didn't
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: call his bros. And was like, dude, women are like
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: afraid of us in parking lots. He's asking women why
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: they were so afraid of them, and like he was
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: like thirty five. Yeah, also he was grown.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: That's that's what drives me wild. Is like there was
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: a guy. There was a guy who actually just decided
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: to leave the platform because he made a couple of
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: missteps that were wowed. But he he had this viral
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: video where he was like do.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: Men hate women?
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: Like do you men? We need to do better? And
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: he was he's a married man with four daughters, and
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: it's like, what do you mean? Like, where have you
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: been guys? So that's weaponized ignorance. Yes, yes, because it's
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: the reason why no one understands. Why if I'm on
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: a dark street and the only person I see is
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: a lone, strange man, I'm going to pretend to be
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: on the phone with another man who loves me, And
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: they're like, why do you.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Have to take that extra step? Maybe that guy would
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: have been nice to you. Can't take the risk. Watch
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: too many SVU episodes.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've talked about this at length. I would
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: talk about it on Instagram and TikTok and in my
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: own life. I like, I'm sure people wish I would
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: shut up. But there is stranger danger, right, Like we
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: know that there's a risk of existing out in public.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: There's also this piece where privately and publicly men do
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: not come to the rescue. Yeah, And like somebody was
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: shouting at me on the street about a year ago,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: and I was walking quickly because he was coming after
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: me and yelling, and he was having like he was
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: probably having some sort of mental health type of thing
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: going on, but he was still yelling sexual things at me.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: And a man in a car saw me and rolled
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: his window up, looked down at his phone, and moved
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: his seat back, and I was like, I looked at him.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: And then I got home and I was talking to
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: a male friend of mine about it, and he was like, yeah,
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: but what do you really expect someone to get involved
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: when someone's having a mental health crisis. I was like, yes,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: I know that. I know that if Natalie was there,
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: she would have gotten out of a freaking car. Oh.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: You should see me at gen Con telling the creeps
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: to get away from the girl dressed as Wonder Woman,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: right because she's trapped and they're like, we want you
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: to be kneeling and now we want you to hold
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: your sword like this, and they just feel like they
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: own her because they've seen three Wonder Woman movies and
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: I like posture up and I'm like, get away from her.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: She said she wants to go play D and D.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: She also paid to be here. Yep, did you see
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: the movie Promising Young Woman?
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, yeah.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: When I watched Promising Young Women, all of a sudden,
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: I was asked a bunch of times by people in
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: my life, why are they acting like if a woman
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: is belligerent and drunk in public, she is guaranteed to
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: be a victim of a man? And I went, why
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: would they make It's like they're trying to point out
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: that all men are capable of doing this. And I go, huh,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: And I go, I guess you've had your friend walk
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: up to you and go, You'll never believe what happened
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: to my cousin with a man that she's known for years.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: I go, we can't even be sleepe in our own
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: friend groups.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: That's there that came out in my friend group years ago.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: And I actually like, that's why I ended a lot
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: of friendships is because exact scenario. One of our closest
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: male friends went home with somebody and she woke up
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: the next morning and said, I have faint recognition of
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: what happened to me, and I don't want to I
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: don't want to shake things up, and I would prefer
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: not to cause any trouble and so I'm just not
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: going to say anything. She told this to multiple people,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: and they continued to invite this man around. I did
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: not find out that he was a dangerous and violent
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: man until like four or five years after the fact,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: and I was like, you brought this man back to
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: hang out with us where he could have done it again.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, oh freaking way. There's nothing that feels stranger
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: and my tummy than when I have to empathize with
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: my male cousins, my dude bros, like any of the
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: men in my life when they've had to witness one
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: of their very close friends do something shitty and then
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: they have to like run through the script. Am I shitty?
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: Has he been shitty all along? Has he been? It
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: happened when Chris Delia came out with all of his
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: like he's a comedian, and oh girl came forward and
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: was like that bastard, or it's been asking for my
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: boot picks since before I was eighteen, And then all
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: of the male comedians had be like, am I shitty?
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Have I asked underage girls to show me their titties?
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: Have I done that on stage or just on the internet,
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: and you watch them like work it through because they
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: have no parameter of what is actually shitty.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: That's that's such a good point that you put your
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: finger on, which is like when young boys grow up
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: with those types of like micro assault, micro consent violations,
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: and then it goes unchecked, then they don't know. It's
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: when it drives me nuts, like after the Me Too movement,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: when so many men were like, I don't know how
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: to approach a woman anymore.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know how, you don't know how? What
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: do you mean? You don't know how?
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: What do you mean? You don't know how to talk
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: to me respectfully? That's what you just said to me.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: You don't know how to walk up to me and
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: know that you've been kind, loving and respectful.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And unfortunately I think that's right, Like I
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: think that a lot of them don't freaking know how.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: And now I've allowed you in my life. I have
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: given you affection, I have committed myself to having some
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: sort of love for you. But I don't know if
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: I can put my friend in your car, yeah yep,
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: or I don't know if you're going to call me
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: a derogatory name because I went to the Women's March,
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: like these are things I have to think about and oh,
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: it just makes me so.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: Well. And is it Chrystalia? Is that how you're saying it?
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: You just got married to someone who knows all about it? Gross? Yeah,
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: I saw that. I just got on Twitter and I
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: saw a picture and someone who's like, that's disgusting. It's
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: like good ones.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: Uh huh. There was I can't remember when I've talked
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: about it, but there was an incident at my high
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: school where a group of gentlemen masturbated into the same
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: cup and then threw it on a freshman. No, and
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: one of them works up my high school. No, one
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: of them. They're all married or in some sort of
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: relationship with people who were in school with me. When
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: I was asked to support them, no, because they were
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: going to take us to state. No, Yeah, it's okay.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: I hate watched Thirteen Reasons Why because I couldn't let
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: it go. Yeah, and then there was that season where
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: they tried to humanize the rapist and I was like,
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: why are we doing this? I believe that everyone can grow,
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: and I can believe that everyone can repent. But he
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: was bad, bad, bad, and he was very dangerous. And
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: now you're telling girls he might be nice to you
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: though you never know.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Did you see the article that was trending yesterday from
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: New York Times, No, it's exactly that it's called. It's like,
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: cancel culture is real. Just to look at this story
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: of a seventeen year old and it just check it out.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: It is weirdly written, and the author of it writes
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: about this boy who shared nudes revenge porn of his
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: underage girlfriend, and then when the girl went to admin
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: and eventually the cops, nothing happened. And so her friends
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: got behind her and made a list of other people
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: who had assaulted people who were dangerous, posted it in school,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: and a lot of them faced consequences like being cut
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: out of their social friend group. So she writes this
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: entire article about how that's canceled culture and how it's
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: really inappropriate to punish a young boy for a one
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: time mistake.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: I would like to know if people in my life
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: are committee assault Yeah, so I don't have to have
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: them in my life because I don't want to have
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: to go through the mental olympics of who's in the
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: room right now, and will my friend corner them and
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: do something inappropriate?
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Yep, the article is getting lit up. Oh it's awful.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: It's like how they tried to make all of Johnny
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: Depp's former partners admit that he was very loving towards them,
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, listen, you can love one person and
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: hit another person. I've seen it happen.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have like stayed out of the depth her discourse.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Very proud of you, and because like to me, it.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: Feels very distant. But what feels really real is the
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: way that my loved ones framed their understanding of it.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: And so when I, like, for example, years ago, I
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: disclosed like a situation to my brother and then his
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: response was to then relate it to when a friend
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: of his was falsely accused, and I was like, oh,
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: that's where your brain goes to when somebody speaks out
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: a real, actual thing. So I'm never going to do
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: that with you ever again. Thank you You're not safe,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: is what I hear. Yeah, thank you for letting me
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: know clearly and efficiently. It's like how I lost a
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: bunch of friends when Kesha was in court. Oh oh yeah,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: So the Kesha case for me was the deb heard
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: case for a lot of people where I was involved.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: I was like, the music industry is skeazy and needs
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: to come out. Lady Gaga's on the stand being like
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: I saw like I like, I walked up to a door,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: opened that.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: Door and saw it. And people are like, what did
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: Kesha expect? She dropped out of high school to be Kesha?
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: She likes to get turned like, Oh, I guess there
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: was too much glitter in her eyes for her to
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: see the assault coming her way. I had a really
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: good conversation with one man that I worked for where
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: I completely turned his narrative around on her. He had
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: worked with her before and he saw my Kesh poster
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: and he's like, are you a Kasha fan? And I
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: was like, yeah, she's one of my like high goddesses,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: like literally pray to her every day. And he's like, ah,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: she's such a hot mess. When I had to interact
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: with her, and I was like, well, did you ever
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: think about it? Years later, when it came out that
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: a bunch of men were drugging and abusing her to
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: keep her right where they needed her to be money wise,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: that she could have been on uppers, or she could
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: have been on downers, or she could have been assaulted
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: fifteen minutes ago. And so we had the conversation, I go,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: you need to listen to her Rainbow album. I go,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: because every song on that album makes me remember something
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: that I or a close friend have had to go through.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: And he went okay, and he was like nice to
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: me about Kesha for the rest of our career together.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: And I was like, you just have to you have
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: to put it in the context. Yeah, she was messy,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: but why doesn't she deserve empathy about her messy right right?
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: Yep? And I love that, like the way that it's
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: such a nice thing to hear when someone can reframe,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: can actually be called in about it and be like wow,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't have that understanding before and now I do. Yeah.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: So nice to hear when people can do that.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: And I can't remember if I told him that. That
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: was the moment where he earned my respect and it
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: like carried far, probably way further than it should have
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: with me. But that was a moment where I was like,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: I can come to you if something is shitty and
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: make you go, can I give you five reasons as
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: to why this is shitty and you're going to have
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: the empathy to hear.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: Me out right, right? Yeah, that's so important and absolutely
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: it's I think it takes learning for a lot of people. Yeah.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: I can no longer tolerate the privilege that people carry
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: because they haven't had to witness something or go through something.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: And it's like, so we've technically haven't had war on
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: us soil in a while, but we also realized that
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: it was shitty for France to go through World War
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: two on their soil, right, right, So where's the disconnect
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: when it comes to things like assault, helplessness in the home,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: women's labor, not being respected, where's the disconnect?
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it shouldn't have to happen to you. Yeah, for
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: understanding and empathy.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Well we do have two traditions to close
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: out the show onto all the men I've tolerated before.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: We need to stay in touch because I feel like
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: I could talk to you about anything for the hours.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: But what has been your biggest life lesson take away?
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: Either through the tiktoks and the Instagram posts that you make,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: or fair play in general or the term weaponized incompetence,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: what's been your biggest I need to pass this on
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: to people because here's my lesson.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: I think the biggest lesson is that when you talk
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: about things that matter to you, there's probably other people
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: out there who relate. And it's like, don't let the
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: fear of being judged or I don't know, the shame
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: or anything like that hold you back. Yeah, because they're
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: you sharing your story. Is how other people start having
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: these conversations out loud.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think my biggest takeaway is you can approach
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: someone with empathy and say all of the things like, hey,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: I know this is society that we're living in, I
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: know how you've been raised, I know how the fuck
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: eye was raised, and I understand why these structures have
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: entered our home, our friendship, our professional life, wherever it is.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: But it is also okay to go this is where
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: I'd like the future to be going. Yeah, and this
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: is how I'm going to operate in our relationship to
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: make sure that that's the future I'm heading into. Feel
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: free to RSVP yes to that party, or feel free
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: to not be a person who's in my life for
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: very long.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: Uh huh, totally. Yeah. You're allowed to have standards.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: And then Our second wrap up is our manifesting, where
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: we take all of these heavy things that we've talked about,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: Like I'm still managing to bring up the dep hair
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: trial and the TikTok guy that pissed me off one time.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: I feel like it was two years ago at this point,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: and we walk forward in passivity where we offer up
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: to the collective universe some hope. So where would you
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: like us to head in the future. What are you
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: hoping for?
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's such an open ended question.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: It's very granoli.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I just I hope that we can all honor
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: our own needs. I love that. How about you.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping that I stop. I'm hoping that the loneliness
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: of this cause starts to ebb away, honestly, And I
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: think that has a lot to do with your lesson
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: where it's through these stories we find connections. Because when
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: I'm standing in front in a group of people being
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: treated like the witch in the Salem Witch Child, like
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: why is this important? And you have to like stand
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: and give a speech or crack a joke or dispel
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: all of the tension, It's starting to make me feel
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: lonelier in my cause, which is an odd mindset because
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: I've met so many amazing people who are also like no,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: this is why your message is important. They just happen
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: to not always be in arm's length away from me
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: when I'm around people who still need convincing. It's like
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: I'm oh, no, I don't want to be Chris Pratt.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: I hate him, but it's like I'm him with the raptors,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: like just trying to explick be like, no, you too
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: can respect women.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I love it.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: This has been such a wonderful conversation. Please know that
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: once you're on Team Tolerator, it's very hard to leave.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: You get to come back anytime you're angry.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: I would well, I'm angry quite often. Yeah, so I
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: would love.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: To you get to email me and be like, hey,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: I just thought of this episode and I'm gonna be
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: like cool, can't believe I didn't think of it. When
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: do you want to schedule it? Awesome, let's do it.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: But let my followers know all the wonderful ways they
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: can connect with you.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: So you can find me on TikTok and Instagram at
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: that darn chat no spaces. I kind of do some
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: YouTube stuff if and I have ooh I have booklists
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: that I've been curating on Goodreads and the story graphs,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: so if you want to read along with me and
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: follow me there.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: I love that. I love. One of my dreams is
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: to have the time book to do a Tolerator book club.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: I kind of want it to be young adult lit
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: because they're shorter and we just like look at them
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: and go, this is why, this is why we accepted
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: this for so Long's all that Edward Colin's fault. Tolerators,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: you know the drill. There's a link tree and all
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: of the show notes. Click that. It'll take you to fireside,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: It'll take you to the Patreon, it'll take you to
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: the blog with the transcript. Now you're out there, you
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: can find me.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: I know it.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: And remember, tolerators, you don't have to smile through anything
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: you're tolerating, including someone that you've watched hand build a
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: desk tell you that they don't know where the dish
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: soap is. Smiles are Hey everyone, it's Natalie and I'm
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: just here real quick to tell you that to all
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: the men I've tolerated before. Officially has merchandise, So if
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: you're looking for a really great way to support the
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: show and get our name out there so everyone can
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: be on Team Tolerator. Consider following the link in our
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: show notes or in the bi of our Instagram at
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: men I've Tolerated pod so you can buy one of
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: our title teas or see some of our holiday lines,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: like our Feminist Spooky line that includes t shirts like
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: Misogyny is Monstrous or my past relationships Still Haunt Me
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: with a beautiful haunted house on it. Happy Spooky season,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: Have a great day and go shopping and treat yourself.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: You deserve it.