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Part Two of My Case Study With Tony Howell, an SEO and Website Copy Client · Talk Copy to Me | Content + Copywriting Podcast

• 0:00
  Erin Ollila: Welcome back to part two of the conversation that I have with Tony Howell, who was my client and is also a website designer and personal brand strategist himself. We ended the conversation yesterday picking on big SEO agencies, talking about how you really need to trust the service providers that you hire for your business. And I ended the conversation asking Tony, whether or not he felt like it was hard for him to trust a different service provider.
• 0:30
  Erin Ollila: Seeing that that's his role that he plays when he works with his clients. I will add a little bit of the conversation you heard yesterday to get you in the right listening space. But that's what we're talking about as we kick off this episode of Talk coffee to me.
• 0:46
  Unknown: Hey, friends,
• 0:48
  Erin Ollila: welcome to the Top coffee to me podcast. Here, we empower small business owners to step into the spotlight with their marketing and messaging.
• 0:55
  Erin Ollila: I'm your host, Erin Ollila.
• 1:00
  Erin Ollila: Let's get started and talk coffee. That's why trust in the service provider that you're working with is really important. Because you as the client may think like, why would we do this like or? I don't know, if Aaron's making the best decision? And I think sometimes you just have to kind of put your faith in and say, Well, I'm gonna let them make the decision. Did you find that hard at all? Since you're also kind of an expert when it? Well, you are an expert, when it comes to websites? Did you find it hard to kind of just put your full faith into me and allow me to do things that you might have not been sure of?
• 1:37
  Tony Howell: Well, the thing that I've learned over the past four years, as our world is rapidly shifting, and and sometimes, you know, major, major things happen is that there's often truth in the other side. And so it's, it's usually something in the middle. And so just a couple of examples of in the past, I took my acting training. And one of the things that I learned when I was 10 years old is that to keep someone engaged, the rule is louder, faster, funnier, like fill any gaps, just like keep the story going. And as I've worked with, and even interviewed, directors and such on my podcast, you know, it's really all about seamless storytelling that we go from one scene to the next, as quickly and smoothly as possible to keep the audience engaged. But you told me, Tony, you need more negative space on your website.
• 2:27
  Tony Howell: And I was like, Aaron, what are you talking about? Louder, faster, funnier. And then you told me why. And then it's to give the audience a time to take a breath. And just like in music, or even in fitness, sometimes the rest is just as important as the action. And so that is something I will take away from this project. I think that it's good to question even your own methodologies, because everything changes.
• 2:57
  Erin Ollila: Well, and this goes back to something we said in the beginning of this conversation is that like the the relationship between copy and design, like I will stand firm.
• 3:07
  Erin Ollila: Maybe if we want to argue about this for a little while we can, but I will stand firm that copy does come first. However, I think our relationship really did prove that there is such an interplay between the two and the interplay is really the true strategy. So using this example of whitespace, I think one thing I had to kind of continue to ask myself when I was working with you was Is this my place? Right?
• 3:28
  Erin Ollila: So with another service provider, I would easily have been like, like, forced some design thoughts on them. Because I don't know if I've talked about this enough on the podcast, but I wireframe all of my websites, which means when my client reviews their draft, they can see it as if it would look on the website, you know, image goes here. This is the size of the heading. And with some of my other clients, I could easily just be like, Well, I don't think this is the best decision because we really need to have whitespace as an example.
• 4:01
  Erin Ollila: However, your your website designer, right, so your spacing on the website, that's your element. So I think in a sense, I had to check myself and say, like, is this preference really like? Is this Aaron's preference coming into this project where I'm trying to lecture you on design elements? Or is this an actual messaging thing that I really want you to consider for your site, not as the website designer, as the client in this instance? So you know, I'm glad that that was helpful for you because I think that yes, I may just be the word girl. But if the if anyone could take away anything from the things that I tell you that it's not the word advice I give, it's that whitespace is so so important.
• 4:48
  Erin Ollila: So I think just even you being flexible with the idea that the white space is a conversion based decision, and it falls in the design world, but here or copywriter is giving you like the instruction to that? I think that that's, you know, that's one of the ways that like, the interplay between both of our expertise really did a lot in this project. I have no. Thank you. So let's talk about the actual process. Because I will say, my, this was not my process. And I also think it's not your process, because we kind of both did our processes together, which, at a moment or two was a little hard for me, because I'm like, focused, Tony, like, no, I cannot look at your website page. Because I like you're you make decisions based on design. And I'm making decisions based on words. But it is vital for you to see the design, and it is vital for me to see the words. So there were times where I'm like, oh, gosh, wait, I have to like jump backward. No, I'm gonna jump forward. And that was just the element of a practitioners process. That was not like, that was not like a creative element, right. So I think when we got into this messy process process where you were doing your design, I was doing the words, and we're doing them together and in different locations. What I mean by that is, Tony had a mock up of his site, like the second after that first call, Tony is like, I'm going to build this, I'll check back in with you in a little bit. So then we can look at the document side by side to look at the mock up. And I think that's really where the magic happened is when we had while it might have been like a like a little bit of back and forth to kind of go to different areas. I think that's really where the magic happened, where we could translate what happened on the page into the live design. How did that work for you? Because you know, I mentioned it, like there were parts where I was kind of like feeling a little like, Oh, what do I do now? How do I adjust this as the service provider, but I think now in this instance, you're both the service provider and the client.
• 6:58
  Erin Ollila: So how did that part feel for you?
• 7:02
  Tony Howell: I mean, we did work on a lot of surfaces, but the larger the site, that the more necessary it is. And one of the things that I've learned is, if it's a business website, they need to hire a copywriter, because it's too much to get to the end. And then I just had a client, I'll just say it, I felt like they they took a bulldozer through the final design, you know, rewriting everything. And it really kind of destroyed the integrity of the vision. And so if I was reflecting back, and if I was starting from zero, or if I was restarting this with you, I definitely think there is a pro to starting with strategy, then moving into copy opportunity before to do a one page website, which I've always done for clients so that they can have something up and running. And Aaron is a brilliant Canva designer, she can get you a gorgeous wireframe. Okay, that
• 8:01
  Erin Ollila: was my first time everyone, I should say that I've always done my wireframes within Google Documents, because I'm not trying to be fancy, I'm trying to just give you an idea of what it looks like. But my Google document has been such a pain in the rear end. And I spent so much time just trying to like get things on the same like line and structure that I was like eff this, I'm going somewhere else, I'm gonna just like, can't I just have like boxes in Canva. So when I delivered Tony site to him, I delivered him a complete, which was designed. And I could only do that because I had some mock ups that Tony had already created. So I did a lot of stealing. Like, I downloaded some of his images, I did screenshots. But it was a little extra of me. I don't know if I should like say like, you're welcome, or I'm sorry, first of all,
• 8:52
  Tony Howell: it was it was wonderful. And it was assigned to me. I'm like she's going above and beyond. So thank you for that. And I'll tell you, Erin, though, like, you know, my business has grown starting from working with fellow actors, like I was so working with, you know, huge Broadway producers and directors and such. And so with those sites where they have a lot of pages, you know, hundreds of different projects, I have learned the value of wireframing. And there's even like two phases of that, where one is sort of low fi and just gray boxes, and like this is going to be a picture. And then there's like full res with you know, and prototyping, seeing it on different devices. So even with my standard client now like we have a shared client MK that is getting ready to launch her site. I am going against the grain of most of my fellow designers and saying I think I'm still going to always use figma.
• 9:46
  Tony Howell: Now to kind of wireframe it out because it encourages me as a designer not to do the same old things with the about page the contact page because suddenly I can color outside the lines and I'll figure out on how to build it later. And then I think much like what you were saying of it being a fluid process, I think you want to a copywriter that has a point of view on design.
• 10:12
  Tony Howell: And I think you want a designer who has a point of view on copy to really create the best thing possible. Yeah,
• 10:20
  Erin Ollila: and I want to talk about the fluid design again for a second, because the one thing I learned is that it helped me also be able to help you make decisions better, right?
• 10:29
  Erin Ollila: Because, again, when we think about strategy, so much of it is, to me is inherent, because I've done it for so long that I can say like, nope, but I don't necessarily, can I can voice until I sit down and try to figure out why I'm making that decision. So I think having to like jump around from design, to copy from messaging to functionality, and all of these different things was so helpful for me to be able to explain in the moment and at the decision, why things would work, why they wouldn't work, why we would make this decision. And I think that that was really like a pro to our relationship was was to be able to say to each other like, No, I don't think you should do this, Tony, I think this is going to slow you down, for example, like on like website speed or something. And you were able to say, well, I'm going to bring in this, we need to adjust, let's say this copyright here, because I'm going to use this specific plugin, or I'm going to use like this type of design element. And if we use this design element, well, now we're going to have to adjust this. And I think that's kind of why the end result works so well, because of that, like playing on each other's strengths. We're getting short on time here. But one thing I really wanted to talk about was actually how the site grew, Tony knew that he was going to have obviously more pages than just the four main heavy, you know, home about services contact, for example, Tony knew he was going to go in this project with a speaking page that he really wanted to amplify what he already had. But let's talk about how we made some decisions to add more pages. One of them that I'd like to talk about is your about page. So Tony, if you go to his site, he has a standard about page, but for his entire team, they have their own individual about pages. And I think that that plays a really strategic role to your website.
• 12:14
  Erin Ollila: So Tony, maybe if you have anything to say about like what that looked like before we even started this project with the additional pages, and then how the edits and the reframing of the page has really like changed. And you know, really made the page better. I
• 12:30
  Tony Howell: mean, we had conversations about tone and layout, and, and where I am today versus where I want to be in 10 years. And so like what that would look like on the website. So one of the things that I tend to do with larger organizations that I was trying to apply to my small business was little circles, little headshots of people that if you click their picture, their bio pops up, but you had made the suggestion, let's not have them click on that, let's just have a short bio below that, and then they can click to learn more.
• 13:03
  Tony Howell: And one of the things that really resonated with me that was your idea, not mine was that like, these little one page websites are for each one of your team members, my rock stars, just shayrat. And Jonathan, it's kind of an example of at least a version of a one page website you could create for other clients. So that helped me feel like, yeah, we need to walk the walk and show integrity that like, you know, we do this for ourselves.
• 13:28
  Tony Howell: And we'd love to do this for you. And the fun thing is, is that we all get to show our fun photos and tell our story. But it's not. It's not breaking the flow on our about page.
• 13:42
  Erin Ollila: It's important to say in talking about this, this isn't advice that I'd give to every business that I work with either because, you know, for other businesses, I think it'd be the absolute wrong thing to do to have additional pages. But in your business in particular, the reason why I think it serves you so well is your employees and yourself have different strengths and personal backgrounds. And so do your clients. You know, yes, we use the words like artists and creatives. But Jonathan, for example, is a singer songwriter.
• 14:08
  Erin Ollila: And if you have a client that comes in who is a songwriter, let's say they're able to look at Jonathan's page and not just see like a personal bio that says he's a songwriter, but shows like examples of him in the news examples of his personal trajectory and how they relate to your business, which is the that's the missing piece for some people. It's it Yeah, it's great. Jonathan's a songwriter, I am too. But why is this important to me? Well, he'll be able to know these intricacies of like, what it is like in my field, he'll be able to suggest maybe the pages for example, that that I'm not considering as the potential client. So it's not simply to showcase you and your professional trajectory, or showcase the idea of a one page website, but it's really a great way to get your clients to feel You'll seen and be able to identify that you're the right business for them, because you have this individual expertise outside of the branding and website that you can hold on to help them make better decisions for their site. So that I think is really like an all star thing about your about pages. And let's talk about the individual client pages, because you already had pretty excellent case studies, I was very impressed with the case studies that you had for some of your individual clients. And we knew going into this that we wanted to refresh like a main case studies page and make a bigger deal about them. We didn't know that we were going to target some of the main client groups that you have. So how did that feel for you? Because I remember suggesting, like, why don't we do this one for SEO purposes, or to even for like case study purposes? How did it feel to hear the suggestion, and then see how it developed into what it is versus like a one off quick suggestion and a conversation. I
• 16:03
  Tony Howell: mean, it definitely grew. But it was a brilliant suggestion. And I am looking forward to sharing it with people. The interesting thing to Aaron is that like, in some ways, the work was already there. It just hadn't all been brought together,
• 16:18
  Erin Ollila: go check it out.
• 16:18
  Erin Ollila: After this conversation. I really love those pages. And I think that they, again, we talked about how they feel better on the about page when they get to know you as individuals and your own trajectory. But I think that same exact thing happens when they go to a page and it says personal branding and websites for directors. Okay, well, now they can say, alright, I heard artists, I heard creative, I felt it, I get the vibe, but I am a director, you're right, you know how to do this for me, not just the actors, right. And I think that that's something that makes people feel very comfortable being able not only to work with you, but to take that first step and reach out, right, because you've shown them how important that is. Let us jump to the beginning and kind of like bookend day here, we talked about like, what your hopeful results were for your website. And like, you know, one of them just having it be sassy based on like, not too many words. Another one kind of showcasing your legacy, which is a word that we used a lot on your website, because it really relates so well to your clients and building their legacies online. So reflecting back, looking at the final product, what are your own thoughts on like the end result? Did it accomplish what you were hoping?
• 17:32
  Erin Ollila: Had your hopes morphed or changed into something different? What do you think about the whole time of the process now into like a living breathing sight?
• 17:44
  Tony Howell: Yeah, I'm excited for an audience. I always, even more and more lately, I feel like it's putting on a show. And so it's like, you know, when it's time to have the audience because you've been staring at this thing for too long on your own. So but I am excited because it is a new era. It's a new chapter. And you know, Aaron, we're, we're gonna put it out there. And I can't wait for the analytics and things to then look at how well it's done. But in the same token, if ever, from an emotional place, not a logical place of ever, I'm like, This doesn't feel right, then I know that there's, you know, always opportunity to shift and mold. But yes, I'm very proud. I have spent way too many hours in the cafes of Bali, adjusting margins and padding and adding SEO titles and descriptions. But on occasion, I just have that moment and I look at it. And then it gives me that experience that I've heard clients say where it's like, oh my god, like, look at what you've done, or like look at look at your brand. And so that that was an honor. And that's the greatest gift that you've given me is that sort of mirror. So thank you.
• 18:54
  Erin Ollila: That is so nice.
• 18:54
  Erin Ollila: And honestly, I really want to commend you too, because like I mentioned before, it's really hard for service providers to do their own work and you've worked really hard like this isn't just like Tony's like turns on like a template of his homepage and touches things here and there like he has really gone into learning about you know, how things are interplaying making those adjustments you know, and and really doing the work at each and every stage of the process. So I do think you need to really kind of pat yourself on the back because you played both service provider and client and it's really really hard to do that for yourself. So I think you've done an excellent job at that. And to finish our conversation since everyone again is listening to this as like a behind the scenes of what it was like to work with me. Can you reflect back on our time together in this project and say were things that either surprised you about working with me or what you liked or even disliked feel free to say a dislike I can handle this Tony?
• 19:51
  Erin Ollila: The thing
• 19:54
  Tony Howell: that surprised me because I am careful of this with my clients is that you And I'm scared to say this on the record, you might edit it out.
• 20:01
  Tony Howell: But you never told me know, when I asked for something, but you said, You were you were comfortable enough to tell me when you didn't agree agree with something artistically or strategically. And so that meant a lot to me. And I kept being like, I know this keeps growing and metastasizing. But yeah, and connecting it back, you know, the other thing that makes me feel safe in doing a lot of the work on my own was, I knew that if I made a choice, and Erin didn't agree, she's gonna see it the next day, and that Google Doc or figma, or Squarespace and let me know, but like, like the good teacher that you are, you're letting me find my voice and and learn those skills along the way.
• 20:48
  Erin Ollila: Well, thank you for saying that. And I think that there's, like, we talked about this, as working together, too, is like, I think you were very respectful of my time. And I tried to explain with Tony, that when we do like a proposal, and we're sharing deliverables, it's really hard to share some of the intangible parts of a project, you know, like I could list as part of your proposal that like, I'm there for strategy, whether it's, you know, like messaging strategy, design, strategy, SEO strategy, but like, what the heck does that mean? That means nothing on a proposal, right?
• 21:16
  Erin Ollila: And I think what you're saying is, like, there were times where you're like, Am I out of scope?
• 21:23
  Erin Ollila: Aaron, like, I know, you've volunteered to give me feedback on my own stuff. But I really want to make sure I'm not, you know, like, pushing you out of the bounds of like your own boundaries. And that's where the intangible part is, right?
• 21:36
  Erin Ollila: Because like, I want this website, I'm invested, you know, sure, I'm not the one paying to get the website done. But I'm invested in Tony's website. So I really want to make sure that that end result is something that I'm very proud of. And I can celebrate Tony and with my audience, or just celebrate him his business in general. So the intangible is that I wanted to read every single one of those additional pages that you created. And I wanted to make suggestions for you on things like, well, this seems like a heading let's let's really bring this out. Or let's reorganize the structure of this page. So I think that's where it's hard to promote yourself, sometimes as a service provider is all of those little intangible parts. And, you know, I'm definitely obviously not going to edit out that part that you just suggested I could, because I think what Tony means is, it's really hard to also showcase what scope is right. So just because I co created a lot with Tony doesn't mean that I would necessarily add 40 pages to a different website, where though I might do more brand messaging, so a different project may look different. And that's where it's really hard to get, you know, a lead to understand what things could look like. And that's why I think there's often so much great, like, customer experience within the work that you're doing, is because it it feels like to the client that you're doing extra, or that you're really going above and beyond for them. Yeah, it's really unfolding naturally. Right? You know, because I have definitely learned in the past eight years of business, how to have better boundaries, and not go out of scope in a way that feels bad for me, because I've, I've spent a long time doing that. Yeah, because I care so much about the end result. And I like the people I work with, I've been so blessed to like my clients.
• 23:24
  Erin Ollila: Because of that I have put myself in situations where I went very far out of scope and felt bad about it. But I think that there is once you've kind of in this is interchanging. But once you've kind of developed what works and what doesn't work for your business, you're then able to, to do that to do the over and above in a way that feels really good for you in a project and it feels really good for your clients. So thank you for bringing that up. And I also think it's really helpful that you brought up that I will say no, because this is the tricky like balance and it's something that I actually like to put as like a selling point of working with me is that I will say no to you and I will tell you why I'm saying no, it is your project it is your money and it is your website. So ultimately, my clients can make any decision that they would like to make on their site. But if I feel strongly about something not being the right decision, I'm not going to not say it and I I will say that I know that that is rare in my field. And I even hear unfortunately a lot of other copywriters say like oh, whatever their site, but I think that's a disservice to the entire project. So yeah,
• 24:38
  Unknown: I Aaron was saying, No, you can't do this. I'm
• 24:44
  Tony Howell: the same way and then But then I get resentful if they actually don't take that I'm like, okay, bad choices.
• 24:51
  Erin Ollila: Yeah, no, I've also definitely been in projects where it's like, as much as they wanted to hire a professional.
• 24:57
  Erin Ollila: They just weren't ready to let go, you know, and I think that it's difficult for either the lead or the service provider to know that like, whether they're going to end up down that road, you know, but in that instance, there's nothing you can do to kind of reframe a project, right? Like, they're going to ultimately run it as they choose to. And you can only offer the best advice that you can. And that's it is what it is. So, you know, just kind of have to kind of move on, but it wasn't like that with us together. Yeah, we had a really great relationship I loved I loved even that, like I mentioned before, like having to figure out like, how do I fit into Tony's process? How does he fit into mine, because it showed me a lot about my own business where I was able to be like, Oh, you could improve on this. So I've been taking notes myself to say, like, don't forget, like, next time, like, feed this into your process, or, you know, building reminders on things so that people feel like they're supported, or they know what's where they are, and what's going to happen. So I think, you know, working together, and it's actually been helpful for me to in that own regard.
• 25:59
  Tony Howell: Any new new business besties.
• 26:02
  Erin Ollila: And if I can say anything to end this episode, I will say that there is a beauty not that it has to be done. But there really is a beauty in working with, especially on websites, a copywriter and designer that are already comfortable together. We talked about this super quickly. And you mentioned it well in part of this conversation. But while building Tony's site, we work together on a different person site where we shared a client and I think that they had a lovely experience. And I think, you know, even just communications between the two of us, it was always like, thank you so much for being on my team. I'm feeling competent, and like your work together. So I think if you're listening to this, and you're considering like, building a website, or updating what you have, you definitely want to trust your service providers recommendations. You know, Tony mentioned how he'll share a few names. You want to trust those because that means like if Tony has either worked with them, or know them well enough to feel comfortable suggesting them same with me. And I think that it really does get shown when you see the work that two professionals do together?
• 27:08
  Erin Ollila: Because they have that level of comfort to say, Well, why are you doing this, or maybe we should adjust that. Tony actually built this client a that standing one page website, well, actually, it was more than one page. But it was like the what Tony calls an apartment website. So it's that what's live and present while you're working on the future website.
• 27:26
  Erin Ollila: And I will say that when Tony built that it actually inspired me to make adjustments to what I thought I was going to do with my own messaging. So you know, having two people that really like work well together, is a really good investment when you're already making a huge time and money investment in your business.
• 27:45
  Tony Howell: And I would say also, just to add on to that it's the same with developers and designers. So if it is a complicated WordPress or web flow site, it's like, sometimes people will be like, Well, can we work with our developer? I'm like, Yeah, but that could get scary. Because the we may have disagreements along the way.
• 28:05
  Erin Ollila: And it's and that's fine, though. Like, you know, I think sometimes people hear that, and they're like, okay, but if it's someone you work with Tony, like a developer that you have a relationship with a disagreement could be a great thing for the project. Because you're able to talk together, you have that relationship where you're able to say to someone like No, please don't do that.
• 28:21
  Erin Ollila: Or here's why I need this, or I need you to do a little extra work. What you're saying is when you have that disconnect, like if you're the designer, and then they're taking it and sharing it with someone else. It could really no, yeah, yeah. So I think that there is like, that's the beauty of working with people who are comfortable with each other is they're able to agree and disagree, and it will only make the project better.
• 28:46
  Erin Ollila: Hey, all right, well, we have talked for far too long, this is definitely going to have to be like a two episode cut somehow.
• 28:52
  Erin Ollila: Who knows. But I just want to remind everyone again, you know, if you are in the areas that Tony is going la Chicago and New York between the end of April and the middle of May, you definitely want to make sure that you attend one of his events, you know, all of the information on how to do that will be in the show notes. But I know there are going to be good times. And I think that they're going to be so valuable to you, Tony, thank you for coming on the show and being willing to be vulnerable and share what this experience was like with my audience. I am so excited about your new site. I just want to celebrate it with you. It is literally just launching everyone right now like between the time that we're recording and the time that this goes live, Tony site will be live.
• 29:34
  Erin Ollila: And I hope that when you're listening you even if you're like I don't need a website designer, I have no reason to check out Tony's site. I hope you do it as a research. So you go to his site and you click through his links. And you see some of these things we've talked about and use them as a way to like, inform and inspire your own business because he's done excellent work translating those words and and making them into an actual published site.
• 30:03
  Tony Howell: And I just want to take the opportunity here on the record to thank you for the inspiration and information you share all the time on Topkapi to me. Huge fan now I get to be on the show Ah,
• 30:16
  Erin Ollila: stop recording.
• 30:16
  Erin Ollila: Alright Stoney. Alright everyone. I will see you back next week where we're going to start a new series on thought leadership. And I'm interviewing professionals on things like writing a book, public speaking building out courses, so it's gonna be a good time and I hope you come back next week to see it for yourself. Never know how to end this. I'm
• 30:37
  Tony Howell: always like your music.
• 30:41
  Erin Ollila: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Top copy to me. If you enjoyed spending your time with me today. I would be so honored if you could subscribe to the show and leave a review. Want to continue the conversation? Head on over to Instagram and follow me at Erin Ollila. Until next time friends