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Mental Health Problems? There's an App for That · Millennial Mental Health Channel

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All right, Eddie, what app can you not live with? How?
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This is Millennial Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano, a Child and
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Adolescent psychiatry fellow, and I'm Dikoreo, a licensed clinical therapist. Our podcast
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is here because we wanted to start a much newer conversation about mental health.
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Our goal is to teach you as much as we can by sharing our own
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experiences and interviewing experts in the mental health field. We will discuss topics like
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mood disorders, psychotic disorders, substance use, personality disorders, and many more.
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Millennial Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone. We hope you enjoyed today's
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episode. MMHC is a production of Speaker from iHeartMedia. I heartma Oh.
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This is a good one. Google Maps because you can ask Keavy. I
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get lost all the time, and then even with the Google Maps, I
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still miss turns. And there's one time her cousins were visiting us and I
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was driving from the airport and I wasn't paying attention and I missed the exit
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and I looked and I was like, holy shit, that just added another
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ten minutes. But I didn't say anything, so I just kept bribing,
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and then eventually they realized that I missed it. So google Google Maps,
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I get. I'm not gonna say the cheesy like, oh I need social
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media, but like Google Maps, I don't know where the fuck I'm going
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half the time. Are you the same way where like if you miss a
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turn, it like hurts your soul, like it breaks you a little bit
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from the inside. I feel like yes, but I try not to let
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it show, mostly because I'm trying to make sure Kenny didn't realize that I
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missed their Yeah, what about you? I know it's cheesy, but I
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was gonna say the weather app I look at it all the time. Yeah,
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and consider me an old man now because I'm always looking at all,
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going to rain today, what the wind look like? But good old Apple
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weather. You got the Farmer's Almanac. It's basically the modern day farmer's Almanac.
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Yeah. So we use that question because we are going to be talking
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about apps today and apps for mental health, because it seems like every day
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we hear about new apps for mental health and new technology that's that's supposed to
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help people with their mental health. Or take my job now, or take
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your job exactly, which you know, AI might just take all of our
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jobs one day. It's interesting to reflect back on like how much apps have
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changed in like a short amount of time, but even like maybe a little
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longer, like things like the calm app Headspace. Like when those came out,
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it was kind of like, yeah, this is like a new thing
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and like but now it's just like it seems like all the time there's something
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new that's coming out that's supposed to be helpful for our mental health. There's
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things for meditation and mindfulness and Apple I think with the latest update, I
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think we talked about this when they have the newest iOS seventeen or whatever when
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we're on it includes did a thing for like mental health check ins like where
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you put your mood do all, and like keep track. So I think
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a lot of those things are just like they're popping up a lot, they're
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coming more and more popular. But I think what we really want to talk
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about today is like how effective can they really be or how effective are they
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if at all. I think one of the main points we're going to try
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to make today is that right now they're not super effective. They're not like
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great treatments, but it seems like they are going to evolve rapidly and get
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better faster. Yeah, so that's a promising thing. That's a good thing.
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And as someone who has come out and been very vocal about how bad
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smartphones and excessive smartphone used are for people, it's a weird line to walk
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where it's like, yes, smartphones are probably bad for you, but maybe
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they could also be a part of the cure. And that's not a bad
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thing either. So it's it's just a weird it's about to be in Yeah,
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whenever we give the social media internet technology use presentation to like our health
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class at work, we have that in the presentation of like this is why
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it's bad and this is how it can be negative. And also we understand
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that like phone and technology and like app use can be really helpful for you.
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It's something that you've grown up with and been accustomed to using. And
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if it's something that's easy for you to use and then in turn reduces like
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a barrier for you to access some type of help and support, that's not
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the worst thing. And I always say, like the cats out of the
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bag, like we're not going to ever go back to a time without smartphones.
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We have to learn how to deal with smartphones, adjust them so they're
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not so addictive, or maybe even use them to make our lives better learn
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from them. Yeah, So first we're going to talk about some chat bots,
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some AI tech that does CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy, where the artificial
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intelligence, the AI was specifically trained in cognitive behavior real therapy, so it
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knows how to respond in a similar way that a therapist would, which is
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fascinating that this is a thing. Now, I'll tell you right now,
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there's not a damn chatbot in the world. Let's say some of the shit
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I would say, so nice, try big chat bot, not with this
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guy. Well, you know, your phone's probably listening to you all the
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time. It is probably it probably has a full profile on you, knows
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exactly what you would say. Shit, Okay, maybe it's a chatbot.
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Right. What are the advantages? What are the advantages before we talk about
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the bad things. Yeah, there's some advantages. Some people don't feel safe
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talking to other humans about their feelings and emotions. They never really had any
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practice, they don't know how to do it. So a chatbot offers them
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a unique place for them to talk about their feelings and emotions and not have
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the risk of the judgment and shame associated with talking to another human being,
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which is kind of a cool concept. It's accessible to anyone with a smartphone,
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which is ninety seven percent of Americans right now, So it's a pretty
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unbelievable thing that it could be essentially either a lot cheaper than seeing a therapist
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or free. And AI is getting better and better, so this technology can
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and will improve rapidly. It might be to a point where right now we're
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saying like, oh, maybe it's not the greatest technology in the world,
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but ten twenty years down the road, we think, yeah, it's validated,
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it's been shown to help people. Yeah. The other big advantage is
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that it can be accessed twenty four to seven. You don't need to call
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during business hours, you don't need to wait for a response. You could
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have a chatbot talking to you twenty four hours a day, whenever you need
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it, whenever you're in a crisis. That's a huge advantage here from a
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lot of previous clients, current students that some of the times where they have
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a really hard time and they feel the most alone is at night, right
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people are friends can't answer whatever it is no one's available, so I can
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definitely see how Yeah, something that could be access twenty four to seven that
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can be pretty helpful and at least at least can be a maybe not a
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band aid, but could just be something to be helpful in the moment until
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other help is available, whether it's in the morning or at a different time,
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or yeah, just when other things are more available. Yeah, gets
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you through a hard time, gets you through a crisis when it's the middle
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of the night and people aren't answering their phones. Well, we can talk
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about some disadvantages and we have our friends hack we at all twenty twenty three.
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I was ready for this one. Something I noticed in their study was
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that chatbots had a hard time identifying crises, And I think that makes sense.
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It could be hard if it doesn't understand the language that let's say,
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teenagers use nowadays. There are some things that teenagers say, and I'm just
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like, what the fuck does that mean? If the chatbot doesn't know,
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they may have a hard time understanding like, oh, this is actually a
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crisis. I don't I don't know. Am I giving a chatbot like in
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my fictional story a thinking brain? Holy shit? Okay, hold on,
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I'll just go back and say. What they found is that chatbots had a
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hard time identifying crises, something that a person is probably way better equipped to
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do. Another disadvantage that and I believe it's hake at all. No,
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it's hacke better anyway. Oh go on, hack we so hack we at
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all twenty twenty three. Another disadvantage is that some people actually preferred the chatbot
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over their actual friends and family, which led to them isolating more from their
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connections in their lives, isolating more from their real, in person lives,
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which can be a bad thing too. The chatbot would also sometimes make incorrect
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assumptions about people, which is a big You don't want to access something when
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you're in crisis or having a hard time and it doesn't know what it's doing.
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If you've ever been connected to some type of like chat box for like
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customer service, and you say something that says I need a little more and
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you're like, okay, chat with the representative, which one of these d
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chat with the representative before I do that, chat with like it is frustrating,
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I am done with you, somebody. I feel like that could be
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a whole episode in and of itself is just how much we hate automated system
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and now they're going to garbage. But chatbots have actually been effective for increasing
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exercise, helping with weight loss, and improving diet. So mental health as
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a whole is complex. It's big picture, it's big scope, but for
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a little smaller, more achievable goals, it has been shown to be helpful
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too, and so with more time it could get more efficient and more effective
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at the bigger picture stuff. During COVID, where a lot people were isolated
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from each other, a lot of Americans tried mental health chatbots and many of
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them even said that they would use it again if they needed to. So
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you have a lot of people have the experience of trying it, trying something
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new and having a positive, helpful experience. And what I find fascinating is
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that chatbots can actually assess your language, the types of word you're using,
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your positivity versus your negativity. It can actually track your moods over time and
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give you personalized suggestions based on what it knows about you and the data that
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it's gathered on you. I think that's really fascinating that it can learn so
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much from you and make it personalized. It's not just general advice from some
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random computer. Yeah. I think that's something that like, if it's going
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to take the human aspect the part out of it, it can at least
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like still keep some of that while it's working. Yeah, it still has
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to be personalized. And the interesting thing about Haquet is that this was a
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meta analysis. It was a study of studies, but they used their analysis
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of the effectiveness of the chatbot on Google and Apple Playstore reviews of the actual
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bot of the app, which I don't know, seems like a terrible way
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to do a study. No, that's super helpful, and the value is
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probably less than point zero five. Right, you have such a selection bias
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for people who read review or write reviews because either you loved it or you
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hate it. There's not a lot of like that's the people that most likely
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are going to leave a review. So I don't know, I don't fully
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trust hackwey at all twenty twenty three, but it helped give us a good
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idea of what the app store reviews say about these apps. You know,
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I will say this though, this is the direction we kind of have to
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head in, Right, there has to be these things are going to be
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studied now, right, So now it's different than it was ten years ago
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when we had Flappy Bird in the app store. We have different apps now,
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so it's like, I guess this is the start for researching and reviewing
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these kinds of things. And they can look back on it in twenty thirty
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four and be like, oh, remember hack We when we looked at it
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when this was our only data. It'll probably change, it'll get it'll be
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different, and that's it's a start. It is what it is, all
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right, And I'm hoping that eventually that these apps will have their own validated
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depression and anxiety scores that you fill out at the beginning and then at the
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end or after a certain amount of time to see if there's been a quantifiable
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reduction in depression symptoms. So we have a long ways to go, even
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in just in terms of studying and how we view these apps and how we
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process the data. Some specific apps we have wobot Wiser that's funny, uh
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Replica uper and then tests. Yes, those are some of the big ones
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that especially uh hack We at all had mentioned. You know, I've never
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heard of any of these. I have heard of Wobot that one I think
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had a story on NPR not too long ago. But yeah, from what
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I remember, and I am not one sure about this, but the app
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itself was shown to be no better than the control group, So it didn't
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actually really improve depression and anxiety outcomes better than doing nothing or like even just
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seeing like a regular chat bot without So it's it's tricky. It's tricky if
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actually gonna work. We'll tell that to the app store and Google Play reviews.
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That's the thing with science. You can't just base it on reviews.
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You got to base it on a control group. So discussion question about AI
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chatbots for depression for CBT that kind of thing. I've learned that one of
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the most important ingredients in therapy is that connection that you have with your therapist
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that allows you to feel safe and stable, to be able to open up
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and talk about your feelings and emotions and be vulnerable about this stuff. How
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does AI chatbots fit into this, to not actually have a physical human with
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you, Like, what do you think? Do you think? I don't
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know, man, I think for now I feel confident to be like,
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I don't know if a chatbot can do this or if we can really use
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AI or an app in this way to your point, Yeah, the therapeutic
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relationship is one of the key factors in whether someone gets better in their course
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of treatment or not. I talked with my group therapy students this week and
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this past week. One of the most important things when it comes to whether
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a group will be effective or not is group cohesion, which is essentially the
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therapeutic relationship within the group. So do I really think the chatbot that just
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pops up on the screen from my app is able to do that? I
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don't think so. I don't know. I shouldn't say I don't know.
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I will definitively and feel pretty comfortable say I don't think so. And is
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merely a restriction of the person seeking out the chatbot, Like if in their
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mind they know that it's not a real person, will that prevent them from
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being totally vulnerable and honest or will it might help? It might help.
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But I think the part of it where like it's a it's kind of like
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a dance or a give and take of Like the therapeutic relationship isn't built off
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of like two cents and says to each other, right, it's built off
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of continued back and forth discussion, reframing, restating like this, back and
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forth, like whether or not the person feels comfortable and understands they're doing this
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with the chatbot is one thing. But I think for the chatbot to then
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hold up its end of the bargain and try to create that safe space,
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I don't know if it can. It'll be interesting to see if it can
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with time, with learning, and I think eventually they're probably going to pump
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in a lot of dialogue and conversations from very experienced, highly successful therapists to
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train the chatbots and not just learn from the manuals, but learn from experts
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in the field, so it might get there one day. And another really
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interesting aspect that I wanted to bring up was virtual reality and being able to
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feel like you're essentially in the room with someone else, because that's where I
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feel like the big limitation is with telehealth is that you're not actually in the
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room with someone else. But I think that there's a possibility of being able
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to do virtual reality. Being able to feel the presence of the other people
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in your room might also help with telehealth teletherapy, and also if you have
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a chatbot where you actually perceive a physical person in front of you could help.
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If you're an Apple fanboy like myself. They did just come out with
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like the Apple Vision Pro that's seems to get some pretty good I'm not going
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to get one, but they seemed to get pretty good reviews and something like
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that a new piece of tech. The more people come out with it,
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or more it's refined, like I think, the price will just go down,
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so then maybe it's more accessible to other people. I mean, I
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can see that as a possibility because of the virtual and telehealth world that we
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live in right now. So if you could actually choose and decide what your
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therapist looks like, if it's like a virtual reality avatar, you have them
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look like I don't know, I don't know, man, I guess like
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it would just feel it would just feel off to me of like you,
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I guess when I more said, the VR thing was more of like in
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my mind, therapist and client each using VR to like communicate with each other,
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but to do VR with like you're talking to a chatbot, but you're
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able to give it a persona I don't know. Yeah, you could make
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it look like whoever you want. That's the crazy thing. You could make
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a Stormy Daniels for all you care. I know one person who would.
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Okay, next question, h Well, with new territory comes uncharted concerns,
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issues, things that arise. What are some things that you can think of
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in terms of like liability and legal issues or something like this. And then
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if something happens, can the tech company companies be sued or do you by
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signing and checking the agreed upon terms of condition that no one ever reads,
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does that help keep them out of trouble? Where are we at with that?
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It'll be interesting to find out. I think a lot of this stuff
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is still up in the air, and it may end up going to the
19:38
Supreme Court one day. And I have full trust in our Supreme Court justices.
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But we bring this point up to say, there's just a lot of
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questions about this. It's hard to know what exactly some of the liability issues
19:55
might be with some of these apps. There was one that came out recently
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like or that was FDA approved recently rejoined to treat depression. And I think
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we Justin and I were talking about before this that it has to be like
20:08
prescription only, like that's the only way you can get it. But I
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think in reading about it and listening about it, I don't know if it's
20:15
much better than placebo or other treatments. It might just be something else that
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people can use. But that's pretty interesting for an app to be FDA approved.
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That's a really good point that it is FDA approved, which leads us
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to our next topic of There's an app called Endeavor r X which is used
20:37
to treat the inattentive symptoms of ADHD, and this is actually one that I
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heard about in residency that I've always found it interesting and shocked to find out
20:47
that it was actually FDA approved. And there's a reason for this because although
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the FDA approval process for medicines and new prescription medications usually is very rigorous.
21:00
You have to prove that it's safe, you have to prove that it's effective,
21:03
it's you have to prove that it's better than placebo. But for things
21:07
like devices and software actually falls in that category of devices, the bar of
21:15
evidence is much lower. You don't have to move that that works hardly to
21:21
the nth degree that you would have to for medicine. So I think a
21:26
lot of companies are jumping on this trying to put them get stuff FDA approved,
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even though it doesn't actually help that much. I'd be learning so much
21:37
shit from you, dude, I had no idea. That's wild, Like
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that makes sense. So okay, So then you have in dev RX you
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have rejoined. In one of the articles I was peaking at right before this,
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the one of the lines said the first FDA approved app to treat press.
22:00
The sentence was like the first and in parentheses, but definitely not the
22:03
last. Yeah, people are going to You know. What it makes me
22:07
think of is when the federal government loosened restrictions on being able to send controlled
22:11
substances, controlled medications, and mail. So those companies like Cerebral and other
22:17
places popped up and started being able to send ADHD medication through the mail,
22:22
and they did. They just don't. These are tech companies, these are
22:26
startups. These are places aiming to make money, not necessarily trying to help
22:30
people, which depends on who you ask. People might say that about drug
22:34
companies too, but that's a whole different discussion. But wow, that's interesting.
22:37
I had no idea. Yeah, if there's money to be made,
22:41
people will try and make money. And I mean With that said, surprisingly
22:45
enough, though Endeavor RX the ADHD game has been shown to be pretty helpful.
22:51
They actually did do multiple studies. So most people think that video games
22:56
get reduce your attention span, but we can actually maybe even hack video games
23:02
use them to our advantage increase attention span. So the game actually adapts to
23:07
the user. It measures and learns what the player's attention span is and then
23:15
slowly tries to stretch it out over time. This game was actually developed at
23:21
uc San Francisco. It wasn't made by the same people who made Fortnite,
23:26
and it was it was tested on young people with ADHD inattentive type and combined
23:33
type. They played twenty five minutes per day, five days a week,
23:37
so that's actually a lot of time playing this game. And they'd done five
23:41
clinical studies so far with over six hundred children tested to assess the effectiveness and
23:47
there was a statistically significant improvement in their API Attention Performance Index and that lasted
23:55
even a month after they stopped playing the games. That's kind of cool of
24:00
video that could potentially increase your attention span? Where was this my whole life?
24:04
I needed? I know I should have played this instead of all the
24:08
hours of Grand Theft Auto. I think for me, like video game wise,
24:17
like I never really really got into like the story mode games, games
24:22
that had like the long campaign and like all those like I feel like I
24:26
probably because my attention span is not the greatest. I feel like I just
24:29
had a hard time staying connected to it. But like sports games where they
24:34
short spurts of like you play this game, you leave that kind of thing,
24:38
I think we're ones that yeah, more held my attention. Do you
24:44
feel like any video games like positively impacted your life, shaped your character or
24:48
anything like that. I wasn't a huge like gamer in like high school like
24:52
that. I know a lot of people were like that seems to be the
24:55
age like high school, middle school where you like play online with friends or
24:59
you hear about friends who made online friends a long time ago, that kind
25:02
of thing. One thing that was really helpful in a time of not a
25:06
whole lot of human connection was during COVID and being able to play you know,
25:11
with friends online and do that like that. That actually was pretty helpful.
25:17
I feel like that was a point where I was playing a ton of
25:18
video games. But yeah, I don't know what about you you know,
25:23
there was a really good game called Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic that
25:29
came out. It's probably a twenty year old game at this point, but
25:32
you had to choose whether or not you wanted to be a good Jedi or
25:36
a bad Jedi. And I remember being faced with those decisions of like and
25:41
like in the game, like people would die, like they were like it
25:45
seemed like heavy for like a thirteen fourteen year old kid, and it helped
25:49
me realize, like, Okay, in life, I want to be a
25:52
good guy, like I just I can't do it. I can't be a
25:55
bad guy. So I always thought that was so interesting that that Star Wars
25:59
game was. So I feel like that did help me develop my character who
26:03
I wanted to be, how I wanted to act in this world. And
26:07
so I think video games are such an exploding industry and why not. It's
26:15
similar with the chatbots and everything. We got to start the cats out of
26:18
the bag. We got to start using our advantage and working on these things.
26:22
You ever heard of the game called Fable, Oh yeah, that was
26:27
similar, Yeah, where you you basically chose whether you were a good or
26:32
bad person. Uh huh, And like every decision you made basically led to
26:37
where you Yeah. Yeah, kind of similar. I remember playing it a
26:40
little bit too, and I feel like as much as the when I would
26:44
play them, like, oh, I'm gonna do all the bad stuff.
26:45
I can never really hold. I can never really kept. I couldn't really
26:51
keep it going. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I just had a
26:53
hard time. Yeah, even if it was a made up video game character,
26:59
I had a hard time bringing more suffering into this world. All my
27:04
friends were dark side, all my friends were bad. Jedi's just like murdering
27:08
people killing me Like, AHAs great. We've talked about apps, and I've
27:17
heard of people using apps like as a helpful thing and more of like not
27:22
treatment, but more like maybe accountability or keeping record. Like one thing that's
27:26
been really helpful for me is something like the reminders app on my phone,
27:32
like I and I have it said as like a widget on my lock screen,
27:34
So if I have things I need to do every time I look at
27:37
my phone, it helps me out. So I know there's apps similar to
27:41
that where they help keep people on track with their thing. But what is
27:44
what are some of the ones that you've heard of? Well, I always
27:47
recommend especially if people are having a hard time remembering to take their medicines,
27:49
and like set on your phone the easiest hack you can do. But I
27:56
get lots of people telling me about like self he arm apps where it gives
28:02
them positive encouragement and like every day gives a reminder like, hey you made
28:06
it eighteen days, Hey you made it nineteen days. There are apps that
28:08
are called things like I Am Sober, AA Speakers to go NA Speakers,
28:15
Recovery Box, sober Grid, Noble, Calm Down, or Sorry, Calm
28:22
Harm. And so there's lots of different apps for sobriety, for self harm,
28:27
sobriety that even if I don't even recommend them to patients, patients are
28:32
coming in to me and saying, hey, I found this app. Hey,
28:36
I like this. Hey it's working for me. Hey, I haven't
28:40
harmed myself in weeks and this app is helping me. I heard something similar.
28:45
It's called like recovery mentor or recovery something that a lot of our patients
28:51
in the eating disorder program use to help them keep track of their previous like
28:56
disordered eating behaviors, and that that was really helpful, Like on top of
28:59
something like self harm or suicidal ideation was helping with these other specific behaviors that
29:06
they used to engage in. And I love that idea so much because I
29:10
work in shy and Wyoming right now, where there is just no eating disorder
29:14
help for young kids. There's just absolutely nothing. So if there were an
29:19
app that helped the kid be self guided, and because sometimes if they get
29:25
put in a program and they don't want to be there and there's a doctor
29:27
telling them what to do, and a therapist and nutrition is telling them what
29:30
to do, it's not going to help that much. But if it's self
29:33
guided, self motivated on an app or something that could be a really really
29:37
potentially helpful thing and something that's like easy and intuitive to use. Yeah,
29:42
I think kids adults like we love that kind of stuff. Something that's easy
29:48
to use that you can incorporate into your life. I think I told you
29:51
I tried using the new Apple like mental Health check and app, and it
29:55
just wasn't that Like it got boring after the little Yeah, yeah, it
29:59
was the same thing. Every day I set a reminder to help track my
30:03
mood for the day and just kind of see like how things are going.
30:07
And it never really like never really got anything that was like groundbreaking from it.
30:11
It was just kind of like, I'm just kind of going through the
30:14
motions. It's really not that hopeful. Yeah, so it sounds like they
30:17
could upgrade it a little bit too. Yeah. I didn't want to talk
30:19
about one of the specific apps called Calm Harm. It's one of the more
30:23
popular self harm apps, and we are not being paid by them or any
30:27
of the companies that we mentioned here today. It was actually funded by stem
30:33
four, which is a charity and created by a clinical psychologist with a master's
30:38
in bioethics, so kind of a cool background. And the app teaches about
30:42
the urge to self harm and encourages riding the wave until the urge is gone.
30:49
Gives people strategies for working through those thoughts, feelings, and emotions.
30:53
Because I work with a lot of people who do self harm, and it's
30:59
it's always like I'm going to try and ignore it and hope it goes away.
31:03
But I like the idea of embracing it, ride the wave, get
31:07
through it instead of just trying to ignore it, because I think that is
31:12
ultimately going to be more helpful. And this app and apps like it does
31:18
help build insight into difficult emotions and why they lead to things like self harm.
31:23
So I like this. I like that there are apps that are trying
31:26
to teach kids about how to do this and prevent it self harm. You
31:30
know, in the industry, the right and the wave we call this urge
31:33
surfing. Ooh, that's pretty cool. Uh huh. The app also gives
31:40
lots of coping mechanisms in the moment to help you get through and not harm
31:45
yourself, with how to comfort yourself, distract yourself if you need it,
31:48
expressing yourself, releasing your thoughts, feelings, and emotions, and then also
31:52
just like random facts things to just take your mind off of things for a
31:56
little bit too. You know, a lot of substance use treatment and I
32:00
think apps that we've seen for this work on a lot of the same principles
32:02
of like being able to get comfort, self, sue, distract yourself,
32:08
have an outlet to get some of those thoughts out. And the apps are
32:12
really helpful with like keeping track of how long people have been clean, giving
32:15
positive reinforcement for staying sober. I've seen apps that will like if people are
32:20
trying not to use cigarettes, or they're like not drinking anymore using substances.
32:23
The app will calculate like how much money on average you're saving each week,
32:28
and it'll kind of tell you like, yeah, good job, look at
32:30
how much more money is in your bank account kind of thing. And then
32:34
they can also get you with things with like tips and tricks for managing urges
32:37
and cravings. Just something that if it's user friendly, it has a goal
32:42
in mind and is able to help keep people on track, is something that
32:45
people keep using and keep going back to for support. One of the most
32:50
difficult things that I find about working with self harm is that in your office
32:55
two twenty on a Thursday afternoon, you can say, like, oh,
33:00
if you're in a crisis, try these, try X, Y and Z.
33:05
But when you're actually in the crisis, your ability to go back and
33:08
remember all the things that your psychiatrist said, it just goes all out the
33:12
door. So I like the idea of an app that can actively work through
33:17
it with you, an app that you can access on demand twenty four to
33:21
seven in the middle of the night whenever you actually need it. Now,
33:25
are there any studies that show that this actually works? Not really, not
33:30
yet. The study is pending but there was a pilot study that was small,
33:35
based on a couple of people who were in it, and it was
33:38
very subjective in terms of the answers. But the people who were a part
33:43
of the pilot study did think that it helped with self harm reduction. I'm
33:46
going to say it for the next question, like the next discussion question.
33:50
But I think, ultimately, like you've said twice or at least three times,
33:53
and I'll say one time, so far, the cat is out of
33:57
the bag, right, So these things are coming, like the studies will
34:00
then ultimately follow and will give us an opportunity to really review how helpful things
34:05
are. But these things are coming. We can't really shy away from it.
34:08
Yeah, and there is a lot of potential to really help people because
34:14
one thing that we've heard over and over and over again for the past couple
34:16
of years is that we don't have enough psychiatrists, we don't have enough therapists,
34:21
we don't have the workforce to help people through this, especially after COVID,
34:25
which was a huge catalyst for multiple just millions of people struggling with their
34:30
mental health. Maybe the answer, the solution is with technologies is trying to
34:37
find some of these things that can help the masses effective, fast, cheap.
34:44
Well, I touched on it a little bit, so I'll be the
34:45
one to ask the question, but what do you think about using technology and
34:49
devices to treat the depression and anxiety that is likely given to us by devices?
34:54
Hell, I could use all the help I can get. Why not?
35:00
Why not? If it can help, If it's if we study it
35:04
and we refine it, we make it better, if we have more options
35:08
for people to get help, I'm all for it. The bag is there
35:13
and the cat has left it, so it is what it is. I'm
35:17
gonna let that be my transition into my take home point of there's really no
35:22
point in trying to fight back on it. It is what it is.
35:24
Technology isn't a pretty amazing spot right now with everything that's happened with AI and
35:30
stuff over the last couple of years. Apple had their new conference Yearly Conference
35:36
where they talk about the next like operating system update that's coming, and there's
35:39
a lot of focus on AI and the kind of cool stuff that it can
35:43
do. This technology is here to stay, so it's better if we try
35:46
to use it for our benefit and try to make things that can be helpful
35:50
for people and make things that we can use to our advantage. Just and
35:52
just said he'll take all the help he can get. I'll take all the
35:54
help I can get. Let's let's make this place better with with the technology
36:00
and resources we have. From my take on point, I know, I
36:05
think I've made this point on the show before, but the Internet was only
36:08
invented in nineteen ninety one, which I always love the fact that I was
36:13
born in nineteen ninety one, So throughout my lifetime I get to see how
36:17
this one specific technology influences throughout one specific lifetime. So look how far we
36:25
have come in thirty three years, and just imagine the exponential growth what things
36:32
will look like in another thirty forty years. That this stuff, we're going
36:37
to have, all the data, all the studies, We're going to have
36:42
so much more knowledge and information on how to use this to our advantage and
36:45
help the most people possible. Absolutely, it's here to stay. It's not
36:50
going anywhere, so might as well use it for our benefit. Yeah,
36:53
the cat is out of the bag, The bag is there, the cat's
36:59
not there? Are well, on the smart device and app that you're probably
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using to listen to this episode. Please feel free to leave us a five
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37:22
Thank you all for listening. Go find a new app that might be
37:25
helpful for you. Let us know if you find one. We'd love to
37:28
hear about it. Thank you again for listening. I'll say it for the
37:30
second time, and remember take care of all mentals.