Latest / Millennial Mental Health Channel / Interviewing Sam Montague: Rocket Scientist, Athlete, and Little Person

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Interviewing Sam Montague: Rocket Scientist, Athlete, and Little Person · Millennial Mental Health Channel

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I'm like what I've been told. I'm this thing my entire life. I've
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been bullied and picked on for how I look and how I'm perceived, and
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then I get here and you're telling me I'm too big to play. It
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was. It was super frustrating. It was unbelievably frustrating. This is Millennial
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Mental Health Channel. I'm doctor Justin Romano, a Child and Adolescent Psychiatry fellow,
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and I'm Eddie Creo, a licensed clinical therapist. Our podcast is here
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because we wanted to start a much needed conversation about mental health. Our goal
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is to teach you as much as we can by sharing our own experiences and
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interviewing experts in the mental health field. We will discuss topics like mood disorders,
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psychotic disorders, substance use, personality disorders, and many more. Millennial
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Mental Health Channel buy Millennials for everyone. We hope you enjoyed today's episode.
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MHC is a production of Spreaker from iHeartMedia. I welcome back to MMHC.
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We have a really spectacular, spectacular, spectacular spectacular episode for you guys.
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Today. We have an amazing guest, someone that we know very personally and
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We're just so excited to talk to him about his life and experiences. We
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have mister Sam Montaguie, which I believe is the correct pronunciation there. It
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is a a Finch name Montaguille. He has his Bachelor of Science and Chemical
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Engineering from the University of Minnesota, Ago Gophers. He has his Masters of
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Science and Chemical Engineering from California Institute of Technology cal Tech. He also has
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a Masters of Science and Aerospace Engineering from cal Tech. This guy is a
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literal rocket scientist. He holds two patents with JPL which I had to ask
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him, but it stands for the Jet Propulsion Lab and NASA. He was
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awarded a Hispanic scholarship to go to the University of Minnesota. He was awarded
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an academic dollarship to go to Caltech. He currently works as a remote engineering
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consultant specializing in liquid fueling and aerodynamics. From time to time, he also
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helps out with his family restaurants called J. D. Hoyts, which I'm
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assuming is in Minnesota. Topics we want to cover today, I haven't mentioned
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it yet, but Sam is a little person and we are going to be
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talking about growing up as a dwarf slash little person. He also has normal
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parents, normal heighted parents, and a normal heighted brother. Being disabled but
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kind of kind of not really being independent as a dwarf little person relating to
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other dwarves, especially in fiction, and how people treat him differently and how
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this impacts his mental health. So everybody, welcome to the show on a
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millennial mental health channel. Mister Sam monteguie. Uh Okay, what do I
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want to say? I feel like giddy only because like Sam's is hung out
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with us a bunch we got to meet because of all of our mutual friend
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kush it feels like ushes everybody's friend, but we Sam and we just go
3:15
way back. So so Sam, we're super excited to have you on the
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show. I need to get like two things off my chest real quick.
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For whatever reason, as we're getting ready to record, I had like this
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like random image in my head that we're gonna do like the full house intro,
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whereas like we would be like doing something and then we'd like turn into
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the camera and like do that whole thing. I don't know why, but
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anyway, so we're not obviously we're not doing that. Here's my other question.
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We probably I could probably wait, but I need to ask. Okay,
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so obviously you're a rocket scientist, Like do you have a relationship with
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Elon Musk? Like, what's the deal with this? Are we are you?
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Like? Do you work for the good guys? Where are we at
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with this? I've been offered to work at SpaceX, but um I turned
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it down. They currently use because of my patent with NASA. Um they
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currently use like an iteration of fueling um that is based on my previous work.
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So my patents get paid by Elon Musk. So it's I don't really
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need to work for him for him to pay me. But um, um,
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I don't really have a relationship. I never talked to him or anything.
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That's the most fucking boss ass move I've ever heard of my life.
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Yeah, I don't have to work for him, he still pays me.
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So that's kind of the nice part about having a patent is that if they
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reference your patent or a pre or they reference something that references your patent,
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um, you get paid for that as well. So um, it's kind
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of like because I've contributed to rocket Science, it's kind of a nice little
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back end to have. Okay, So, like I've like sat here with
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my mouth like wide open for like two minutes. So basically what I'm hearing
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is you told Elon to fuck off? Is what I yeah? Ok,
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yeah, Okay, I mean not really. They just don't have a great
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work culture there. Oh, I've heard that. It's kind of like they
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don't expect you to stay longer than eighteen months. They expect you to work
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more than sixty five hours a week, including like overnights and crunch time.
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It just doesn't seem like a place for me to grow. Yeah, it
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seems like a great spot for people that are like close to retirement and maybe
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they want to get one or two good years and then, you know,
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either retire or move into consulting. That's kind of what I'm experiencing now is
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a lot of the people that are my competitors in the consulting world now are
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quite a bit older than I am, where they're retired and they'd like to
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make the money, but they don't get the benefits through consulting that you would
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working for like a private company. So it's just not for me. I
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really enjoyed working in NASA, and maybe I'm like biased now I have a
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team to represent, but yeah, I think it would be hard for me
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to want to go out there and work for spaces. Yeah, Sue,
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I think that's cool and I value I appreciate that you put your mental health
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and your values above working for someone like Elon Musk. I like that about
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you. Sam. So, I have to admit, and I haven't told
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Sam this yet, but for some reason, and I really don't know why,
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I've always kind of been fascinated with little people. And it feels weird
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to say, but just how life is so much different, but it's also
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the exact same. I've always just had a thousand questions and never really had
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anyone to bounce these questions off of. So being able to talk to you
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on my podcast or on our podcast, it's literally a dream come true.
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As I say, justin do we have a treat for you? Man,
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I'm so glad you're here. I know Eddie's glad you're here, because,
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yeah, we do have a mutual friend. We got to hang out so
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much during their wedding. It was so much fun. We had. Yeah,
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such a fun time. And the fact that you're such an accomplished scientist,
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and I think anytime anyone has any sort of disability or something that defines
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them as a character. People label them as that thing. So you are
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not only a little person. You're a brilliant scientist, You're a rocket scientist.
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You're a person. You're a person looking for relationships like you have such
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depth of character and that's one of the reasons why we wanted to have you
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on this show. So it's literally it is an honor. I'm so glad
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you're here. Thank you for being on the show. Yeah, thank you
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for having me. I'm really excited to like express kind of how I feel
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and talk to you guys, and because I haven't seen you guys in forever,
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so I think this will be fun. I'm really excited. Uh justin
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start us off. I mean, we already have shown everybody that Sam is
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a fucking badass, So like what, let's let's just let's just do it.
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So Sam tell us, because I want to start off first things First,
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what terms do you prefer we use when talking about this stuff? Because
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there are some socially acceptable terms, but I want to make sure that we
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do what you want. I personally really like the word dwarf um. I
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really like the kind of the mythology and the mysticism that's involved with the name.
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I like the powerfulness that I'm like, you know, I'm a different
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race, I'm not from the same I'm not from the same cloth like.
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I like that. But a lot of a lot of little people do not
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like to be called dwarfs. And I learned that the hard way that you
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know, they don't you know, they're just smaller. They don't want to
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be considered like something else or like a different you know, different biologically.
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They you know, it's just a disability. And um, they just want
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to be treated like equals. Sorry, I'm okay with dwarf little person LP
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for short. It doesn't matter. Um, those are the two I like.
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There is a derogatory word that I will I will refrain from. UM.
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I grew up and was raised um thanks to the school system as well
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that if anybody called me that, they got it in trouble. But you
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know, like more than a week's suspension, so it was a pretty serious
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thing. UM, and I've never wanted to be called that, so I
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just refrained from anyone using it. I take it that's the word that starts
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with M. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the word is midget. Yeah,
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and it's a, it's an Yeah, I think it's more like a
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sexualized term. And people are like, oh, well, you know,
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dwarfs and midgets are different, and I mean sure, yeah, but like
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not how people use them, Like it's not the same. You know,
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if you were a biologist, then yeah, you could use them different interchangeably,
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but like how people use it isn't It isn't a nice or a kind
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word. So I just refrained from using it. You said something earlier about
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the term dwarf, and like learning the hard way that like some people,
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I don't like that. Yeah, okay, are you okay, Sharon?
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Like what yeah, yeah, Oh, it's just it was just like a,
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um, it was a conversation with I think it was somebody that messaged
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me on social media. Maybe it was like a It was a woman that
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was a little person and she like commented on my post. I don't remember
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what the post was, unfortunately, but she like commented on it and she
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DM me and I was like, oh, you're a dwarf too, that's
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awesome, and she was like, I'm not a dwarf. Do not call
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me that. I'm a little person. Yeah, And I was like oh,
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oops, Like how but I you know, I don't really have a
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whole lot of connections in the little people world. They're in the little people
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community. I've been to a couple events, and I've met and I've had
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discussions with awesome people, but with awesome little people, but I've never really
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had like a complete understanding of the community or the culture. Is it.
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Do you feel like that's like an intentional thing? Is that like something like
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preference wise? Like what because I've met I know, like I've met different
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little people throughout like my lifetime at this point, and I know one who
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like I'm still friends with from college. I guess is it really friends?
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We follow each other on social media, Like, I guess that's friends nowadays,
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right, And I've seen that they post like multiple times maybe in a
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year that they're at like an event like you're mentioning or some type of yeah,
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probably like an event with with other little people. Like do you feel
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like this is intentional for you? Is that just how things kind of worked
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out? Like what is that like for you? Um? I tried,
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you know, and I think that was kind of the hard part, was
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that like growing up I was different, Like everybody knew I was different.
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You know I was. I was the one of one. I was the
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unique one kind of everywhere I went. And then there was there's an event
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called the d Triple A and it's the Dwarfism Athletic Association of America. And
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basically it's like a week long convention where you just sign up to play sports
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and do events, like there's like a dance night, there's like a ballroom
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night, there's like a full dinner night, and you basically meet other little
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people. But through the at it kind of pushed me away rather than inviting
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me in. There was a lot of things where I was seventeen at the
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time, and I think the event was in Milwaukee, I believe, so
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it wasn't that far. I live in Minneapolis, so it wasn't like that
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far of a drive for my mom to drive me. And I wanted to
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go for the week, and I was really excited. It was something I
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always wanted to do. And I had always played sports with like normal heighted
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people, So the opportunity to play sports with people my height, I was
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so jazzed about, Like here I come, Like I'm good enough to play
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with the big boys. Like here I come, I'm ready to wreck shop
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in these tournaments. And then I got there and they were like, well,
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we don't really know if you're a dwarf or not. Like you're sixteen
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seventeen and your four foot ten, like if you have a growth spurt in
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the next year, you're technically not a little person anymore. I'm like,
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what, Like, I've been told them this thing my entire life. I've
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been bullied and picked on for how I look and how I'm perceived, and
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then I get here and you're telling me I'm too big to play. It
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was it was super frustrating. It was unbelievably frustrating. And they only let
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me play like volleyball, soccer, flag football. But then it was like
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basketball, I wasn't allowed to play. There was like two other sports that
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they were like nope, Like your size is a huge is a huge advantage.
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And I'm like, well yeah, but like you know, I'm i
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met at disadvantage when I play against my friends or in normal sports or you
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know, I'd played varsity sports and like I was always undersized and now here
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I am to you know, play against people that I'm you know, the
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same height and have the same disability as and you're telling me I can't.
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So that was and I think that at that point it was kind of like,
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Okay, I'm in this on my own, Like there isn't a community
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for me there. You know, people wanted to meet me and be friends
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with me, but they didn't want to compete against me. And to the
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point where like you have like people that are like thirty five or forty years
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old telling me the seventeen year old that I'm too big to play against them.
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It's like, dude, you're three times my age and I can't play
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against you, like because you're scared of me or you think I'm gonna beat
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you, Like what is this? And it it just it frustrated me more
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than anything. And then it when I came back from that, I was
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like, Okay, it's time to push regular sports as as far as possible.
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And I think that's kind of why I like the phrase disabled but not
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really. It's like, yeah, I am disabled, but I can do
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everything a normal person can. You know, I don't. I don't really
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feel disabled. Once in a while somebody will say, oh you're disabled,
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then you should get a handicap sticker so you can park in front of every
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store, but I can walk, Like, I don't want to take the
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one handicap spot from the guy that's in a wheelchair because I have the sticker
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and he has the sticker and that no, Like, no, I can
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park and walk. I'll be fine. So there is kind of that where
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I don't really perceive myself as a disabled person, but other the outside people
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looking in definitely perceived me that way. So damn thanks for sharing that.
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Sound that's tough. I mean, yeah, it's okay. I mean I
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I don't know, a lot of thoughts ran through my head, but I
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just hope you kicked the shit out of everybody in sports when you when you
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were there. Yeah, oh yeah, Yeah. The best part was we
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played Basically, there's a team from LA and it's like some of the actors
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that are little people like the I don't I can't remember his name off the
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top of my head, but he was in like the Pirates of the Caribbean
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series and he's like the lead guy for there. They're called the LA Breakers,
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not the Lakers, but the Breakers and um, and they have like
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custom uniforms and they show up and they practice and and I was like,
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I'm gonna take these guys out like, these guys think that they can practice
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with their team every two weeks and show up to a basketball game against me
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like no, and uh yeah. They eventually they told me I couldn't play
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basketball. That was the team that told me I couldn't play basketball. And
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then we played them in soccer the next day and I beat them pretty handibly,
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So that felt really good. But I was definitely motivated. That was
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a chip on my shoulder, like, Okay, I'm better at soccer and
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you told me I can't play basketball, So here we come. I'm coming
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for you. Is it? Martin Cleba? Martin Clebba? I can?
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I can google him? I'm sorry looking at the Google right now. I
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was gonna say, there's no way Eddie knows that offhand, like wow,
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sorry, it'll just be real b He's really yeah, okay, so this
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is uh not only is this an anti Elon must show? This is now
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No, no, no, I don't want to putt if he you know,
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if that's what he needed to do to win, then that's what he
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needed to do to win. You're a better man than me, Sam.
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I was ready to drag him well, honestly, listening to your story about
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growing up one of one. You're the only little person in your town in
16:48
Minnesota, and then to hear that you're not quite fitting into the mold that
16:53
they want. That broke my heart. Man, that hurts to hear because
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it was it was frustrating. It was really sad. I bet, how
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did you feel? Because I think a lot of people maybe who are mixed
17:07
race could feel a similar way where they don't feel like they totally fit into
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either basket. Yeah, how did that impact your your psyche, your your
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psychology? I think it just kind of told me that, like I was
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in this on my own, that there wasn't going to be a group that
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could understand me, and there wasn't going to be a group that was,
17:25
you know, I would fit in. And growing up, I always wanted
17:26
to fit in with the jocks because I played sports too, and I was
17:30
really good at sports. And but then it eventually became a thing where like
17:33
no, Sam, like you're you're different, you know, and and it
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and I slowly started to get cast away from that group. And so then
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I thought, oh, well, I'll make great friends with little people.
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And then I went to that event and it was kind of more like not
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really like they they were jealous, almost like I don't have many issues.
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I don't have many other factors to my disability, Like I'm I'm just small.
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That is really the only thing that really changes me. And I think,
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you know a guy that has to use a scooter or you know a
18:06
little person that has to use a scooter to get around, Um looks at
18:08
me and is obvious is jealous that I don't have the same situation that they
18:14
have, Like, yes, we have the same disability, but we're in
18:17
a little different situation. So I kind of get it, you know.
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I I was dealt, you know, I was dealt a lucky hand for
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a bad disability. But if that makes any sense, but I just kind
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of lucked out. And I've always related to maybe not just mixed race people,
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but also just like you know, people of color, and I think
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it's easier for me to relate because it's like, yeah, I'm not I
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don't fit the mold, like I'm different, I'm unique, and it's easier
18:44
to relate to someone else that has also been treated differently. I mean,
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I gotta imagine like having to go through that, and like you mentioned of
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just like Okay, it's it's gonna be on me like that, that mentality
18:53
and like that that idea. My guess is it hopefully helped you like throughout
18:59
things like college and now like as an adult. Yeah. Absolutely, And
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I think for me college was really like the eye opening experience I needed.
19:07
Where high school, it was like I was constantly bullied, and the bullying
19:11
was hard because the teachers really liked the bullies, and so it was like
19:15
I had no footing, like I had no like, no one backing me,
19:18
and it was really hard. And I thought I hated school. I
19:21
thought I hated learning. It made it a really hard situation. And then
19:23
going to college, I did my first two years at ANCA Ramsey. It's
19:26
a community college here. Because I didn't get I didn't get awarded a scholarship
19:30
to go to the UVM. My family, unfortunately, I didn't want to
19:34
put them under the pain or anything to put me through college. So I
19:37
went to community college. And at that point it was like, Okay,
19:41
no one cares what I look like, No one cares you know, how
19:44
I talk, No one cares about how tall I am. Like they're here
19:48
to learn and I'm here to learn. And I'm going to put my best
19:49
foot forward. And then getting to the University of Minnesota, it was like,
19:53
oh, I'm going to really struggle to make friends and fit in.
19:56
But you know, I was an academic just like everybody else, and I
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it was easier to fit in and to find to make friends because everybody treated
20:04
me like an equal where that didn't really happen before that. Working in a
20:08
high school, I tell kids a lot of the time that, like,
20:11
we just had problem like a week ago, and it's like this little bit
20:14
of like drama, and like the stuff that's going on right now literally will
20:17
not matter in like some sweet right it like it is out there, and
20:19
I'm glad. I'm glad you had that experience too. And I've heard too.
20:22
One of my really good teachers in high school told me if he was
20:26
ever to leave teaching high school, he would go to a community college because
20:30
those people sometimes more than like at a four year are there more to learn
20:36
than like maybe other groups of people like right for different reasons, right,
20:38
whether it's right out of high school, whether it's coming back to school,
20:41
like you get a group of people who are are there for themselves. A
20:47
lot of the time where I think sometimes you can argue maybe at like a
20:49
four year school, maybe there were some outside pressures to get there, whereas
20:53
like community college is like we're here, like this is what I want to
20:57
do, and I want to I want to be here. And there was
21:00
a good mix of like, you know, you did have some kids that
21:03
were like, Oh, I'm only here because my parents want me to go
21:06
to you know, do something after high school. You did have a little
21:07
bit of that, But then there were a lot of people like, oh,
21:10
I'm thirty five and I'm trying to get an education because I'm tired of
21:14
working my you know whatever job. And those people were way more motivated,
21:18
and so it was a lot easier to relate to those people because they understand
21:22
how to you know, time management, and they understand how to study,
21:26
and they understand what to look at, and so communicating with you know,
21:30
adults instead of you know, high school kids worrying about their clout or there,
21:33
you know there how they how they're perceived, it was a lot easier
21:37
to get along with with people. So tell us a story about the bullying
21:41
of some and I know we've talked a little bit about this in the past.
21:45
So I've got an idea. But I think it's important to be able
21:48
to say the things out loud that people have done, because I know people
21:52
have been pretty shitty to you in the past. Oh yeah, and I
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don't I don't really, thankfully don't really remember most of the bullying. But
22:00
it was just kind of like not being invited and just like, oh,
22:03
Sam, we didn't see it at the event on Saturday, and it's like,
22:07
well, no one invited me to go on Saturday, so I stayed
22:10
home or you know, I spent time with my friends, and that was
22:14
kind of the nice part. Two was that you really found who your friends
22:17
were, even if you had never talked to them before, Like people that
22:18
were willing to defend you in the hallway or in the classroom. I was
22:22
like, wow, like, there are people that are kind enough to you
22:25
know, want me to be treated like an equal and not just you know,
22:27
let me be teased or bullied or whatever. So I think a lot
22:32
of that was I mean a lot of it was just my height, like
22:34
it hadn't you know in high school, it really had no value, Like
22:37
nothing of it really hurt. It was just kind of like I just never
22:40
really got to fit in. It was never treated From the most part,
22:45
I had a great group of friends that I still talked to almost twelve years
22:48
later. So it's like I was really fortunate where they, you know,
22:53
kind of the popular kids I was friends with kind of just stopped inviting me
22:57
and talking to me. And then I it's kind of like, all right,
23:00
I'm just gonna start a friend group with people I like or you know,
23:03
people that actually talk to me at school. And it sounds so simple,
23:07
but it was kind of like, Okay, these kids are really smart,
23:10
and I want to be really smart. Like let's see what they're doing
23:12
that I'm not doing, and let's see if I can make a friend group
23:15
out of this. So a lot of my high school friends are super like
23:19
I feel like I'm there's two of us that I kind of joke that we're
23:23
kind of the dumb ones of the group of the eight of us, and
23:26
the other guys are the other guys are quite talented. So it's just kind
23:32
of that, yeah, And that's it's like, from the outside looking in,
23:33
it looks that sounds ridiculous. That's really how it feels. It's really
23:37
how it feels like I am I'm constantly being educated in schooled and told what
23:42
I'm what I'm wrong about, and corrected, and it's kind of like,
23:45
oh, yeah, you guys are way smarter like I didn't. I didn't
23:48
grow up like this, So they're gassed like that you're the smart one.
23:51
Man. I wish, I wish. Oh that was just kind of like
23:57
the thing was I really in high school that I thought intelligence was really cool
24:03
and how smart people were and how how hard they were willing to work at
24:06
academics was enlightening to me. And I kind of took that from my friend
24:11
group in high school. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna really try
24:14
in college and really see how far I can really push myself. So we've
24:17
talked about high school a good amount in a little bit of like college.
24:19
But I guess for you, Sam, and I try and think back to
24:23
like my childhood and like I'm really realizing that like I'm up until a certain
24:27
point, like I'm not really having a lot of markers of like this happened
24:30
or this have like remembering specific things. But I guess for you, like
24:34
when did you start to be like become aware that like maybe something was different
24:38
or you were, Yeah, you were in a different spot compared to your
24:42
peers or your friends. It was pretty early on. It was probably like
24:48
third or fourth grade where I had always kind of grown up to be the
24:52
small I was the smallest one in every class, you know, class photos
24:55
or anything, I have to sit in the front or you know, put
24:57
me in the front. And there was there was a lot of that,
25:00
but I think it honestly probably came from playing sports because it was just kind
25:04
of like, oh, you know, the defender comes up next to me,
25:07
It's like, oh, I got the small guy. It's like,
25:08
all right, buddy, watched me run right by you. But it was,
25:14
you know, it was kind of like it was never really my friends.
25:17
And I think for a while too. I have a younger brother that
25:19
is a like two and a half years younger than me, and growing up
25:22
we were kind of always the same height until I got it into high school
25:26
and then he kind of had his maybe eighth grade or ninth grade for him,
25:32
so I was an eleventh grade or a senior junior senior, and he
25:36
kind of had his growth spurt, and that was kind of when I was
25:37
like, okay, I'm you know, it is just me, I am
25:40
smaller. Like having a younger brother that's kind of the same size as you
25:44
and as just as competitive as you kind of motivates you to work hard and
25:49
move things around. But once he kind of grew, I was like,
25:52
I didn't get that. I didn't get that, you know, six inch
25:55
or eight inch growth spurt. And I think it was it was probably just
25:59
a gradual thing, and I didn't in the beginning. I didn't really mind
26:03
it until you know, parents would say something or like I couldn't reach something
26:07
in the class that everybody else could. It just kind of you know,
26:10
frustrating things like that, or not being able to use parts of my locker
26:12
because they gave me, you know, like the lockers either on the top
26:15
or on the bottom, and somehow I got a locker around the top so
26:18
I can't like hang my coat up or anything, or reached like half of
26:22
the locker so everything's just on the bottom, Like everything was on the bottom
26:25
of my locker. But um, that's just kind of how it worked out,
26:29
and I think it was just kind of a gradual thing. In high
26:32
school, it became way more noticeable because obviously people had reached six feet and
26:37
they're taller, and everyone kind of had that growth spurt where they kind of
26:41
became an adult. I grew almost an inch every year since I was in
26:45
kindergarten, so it was kind of like a steady thing for me. It
26:48
was never really a spurt. It was like every year I'd go to the
26:51
doctor for my physical and he'd tell me, you know, I'm ten pounds
26:55
heavier and I've grown an inch, And that was just kind of life.
26:57
And then I think sophomore or junior year of high school, I stopped growing,
27:03
and then well, it was kind of like I had it hit the
27:04
maximum. I was like, well, I don't really think, you know,
27:07
biologically, there's nowhere for me to go after this, so I've kind
27:10
of hit the peak. I had a question I remember for the wedding for
27:15
our friend, our mutual friend, Kush. I remember you mentioning that you
27:18
had to shop in the children's section for your clothes or the boys section,
27:25
and it made me realize, like that might be that would be hard,
27:29
that would be difficult or degrading in a way. So how is day to
27:34
day life different for you and how does it weigh on you? And one
27:40
of the questions I really like to ask, is how does it impact dating,
27:44
because that's a big part of life too. Yeah, so I'll start
27:47
with the clothes first. I don't do thankfully through weightlifting and kind of gaining
27:52
some weight and stuff, I don't really I don't really fit much stuff that's
27:56
like I don't know adolescent or you know for like pre adults or pre teens
28:02
or whatever. But I used to. I used to. I mean I
28:04
have a lot of clothes that I've worn, you know, T shirts and
28:07
stuff that i'd still fit me from like fifth grade or sixth grade. Not
28:10
that I wear those, but I know that my parents still hold on to
28:12
them and have them and everything, and I could fit into them no problem.
28:15
But yeah, I might be a little more muscular than I was then.
28:18
But that's just kind of how it is. And I always talk about
28:22
this too. This is kind of how I help build people's perspective on kind
28:26
of what a little person is. Like, is you know, any any
28:29
clothing store I go into, nothing is going to fit. Like I can't
28:32
go in and buy something and wear it that night for a date or a
28:36
party or whatever. Like I have to go in and look at something and
28:41
go will this look good if I get it tailored, and then I have
28:45
to go get it tailored and then so then I probably don't wear it for
28:48
another month after I purchased it, which can be frustrating. It can be
28:52
really frustrating, Like, for example, it's finally starting to warm up here
28:56
in Minneapolis and it's starting to get humid, and I don't really have any
28:59
shorts that currently fit, and I know I'm gonna have to go out try
29:02
shorts on until I find a cut that I like, then take it to
29:06
the tailor. Then you know, two to three weeks later, I'll get
29:07
them back and then I'll be able to wear my shorts. So it is
29:11
kind of like a like it's kind of always in my head. And I
29:15
used to wear more of like a European cut small because it was kind of
29:21
shorter in the arms but longer in the torso, and that helped me.
29:26
But now I wear kind of more of an American small or a European medium,
29:30
which kind of gives me more room in my shoulders now, and then
29:33
the length doesn't really matter so much. It is kind of frustrating. Once
29:37
in a while, I'll put a shirt on and it's like cropped almost like
29:38
it just doesn't fit the length. But then I go up a size and
29:42
then it's like I'm like wearing a pajama set, like it's so baggy.
29:45
I don't you know, they don't make it in between. So either by
29:49
the larger size and then get it tailored and hope it looks good, or
29:53
I just skip it and look for something else, you know. How about
30:04
the dating that is kind of the interesting part is that I don't really tell
30:11
anybody well obviously looking at me, you know, but from like dating sites
30:14
and looking online, I don't really put myself out there. I don't really
30:17
like the kind of the attention I get on dating sites and that stuff.
30:22
I feel like almost like I'm more sexualized or like fetishized in a way online
30:30
where it's like the woman is like, oh yeah, I would sleep with
30:33
him, but they don't want to date me, and it's like I'm almost
30:37
like an object and not a human being. And that's really frustrating because then
30:41
they'll it's like the first the first response you get when you match someone,
30:45
it's like they tell you and it's like WHOA, Like that's not what I'm
30:49
into. I'm not interested in being targeted like that, Like I'm just trying.
30:55
Yeah, right, Like I'm not like that's not for me, Like
30:59
no, thank you, Like I'm not like I'm not looking to be used.
31:00
Um, And I think it's funny. My co worker and I a
31:06
couple days ago at the restaurant, we talked about this. He just he
31:07
brought it up randomly and he's He's like, do you think dating is hard
31:11
because you're short? Or do you think dating is hard because the stigma of
31:15
short men? And I said it's probably the second one, Like I think
31:21
I think there is like kind of a stereotype that women want to date taller
31:23
men, and there aren't, you know, many women that are shorter than
31:27
I am, So it kind of rules me out on a lot of those
31:30
relationships or dating those people. But now the older I get, the more
31:34
I realize that that's just kind of a great filter for me. Like if
31:38
someone's like, oh, I'm really attracted to you, but you're you know,
31:41
your four foot ten, I can't date someone, and it's like okay,
31:45
then move on, Like you know, I'm I'm not looking to try
31:48
to make excuses or try to fight someone to want to date me. It's
31:52
like if you know, if you have an issue with your partner's height,
31:56
then that's on you. That's not on me. So like it does,
31:59
it doesn't matter to me. And I've been fortunate enough to date you know,
32:01
wonderful women, but most of the women are somewhat taller. And you
32:06
know, you talked about kind of mixed races and through college and after college,
32:10
that's kind of what I dated ill and at the UVM, I dated
32:15
a woman that was mixed and she played soccer for the UVM. And then
32:17
I dated a basketball player for a private school here or college player. She
32:22
was very tall, but we had a lot of She was really nice and
32:23
she was just kind of like I don't care, you know how tall you
32:25
are, Like I don't care people stare I'm tall, people stare at me
32:30
anyway, so like who cares? And that's another big part of dating is
32:32
women are like, oh, I don't really mind that you're short. But
32:36
then we go out and I get looked at or stared at, you know,
32:38
like just eyeballs on me, and then they feel uncomfortable, like why
32:44
are people looking at us? Why are we getting stared at? Like why
32:45
won't that guy just turn around and mind his own business and then I ryle
32:51
someone else up when it's it's my problem not there. So there can be
32:55
like those situations as well. But I think for me it's just kind of
32:59
finding the nicest thing. Oh will make it say to me when we're starting
33:01
today or we're talking or whatever. He's like, Yeah, your height doesn't
33:06
matter to me. It's who you are. And it's like that's a big
33:08
things. It's it's more rare than you would think for someone to say that,
33:13
And I wish that was everyone's perspective. It doesn't matter what your physical
33:17
attributes are. I'm into you for who you are. And one thing I'm
33:22
learning about you, Sam throughout all of this is that you're an optimist and
33:28
no matter what happens to you and no matter what's going on, you find
33:32
a way to find the positive and find a way to learn throughout all these
33:36
different perspectives. In man, I admire the hell out of you for that.
33:40
Ye wasn't that like a Thomas Edison quote about light bulbs? But he
33:45
didn't. He found one hundred and whatever eighty ways not to make a light
33:49
bulb, and he learned if he learned from that kind that's kind of like,
33:52
um, you know, he didn't just learn one way to make a
33:54
light bulb, he learned one hundred and eighty ways not to make the light
33:58
bulb or whatever the phrase is. But yeah, I think you just I
34:02
think you learn more from failure than you learn from success. And I was
34:07
a kind of a skateboard kid growing up, and skateboarding really taught me that,
34:10
and I've kind of applied it to everything since then. Like it's kind
34:14
of silly, but I'm not gonna throw them under the bus. But our
34:16
mutual friend has a little issue with this. But for me, it's like,
34:21
you know, skateboarding. Skateboarding, when you're learning a new skateboard trick,
34:24
it takes you hundreds of fails before you ever land one, but that
34:29
feeling of sticking it and rolling away on the skateboard is euphoria. It's the
34:34
best feeling in the world. You know, you could spend four hours scraping
34:37
your elbows and cutting your knees open and whatever, and ruining your jeans and
34:40
your shoes in the process, but that rolling away landing the trick is the
34:45
best feeling ever. And I've kind of applied that to other things that you
34:47
know, I'm going to fail until I succeed and whatever I have to do
34:52
to get that success is you know, I learned from my failures more than
34:54
I would learn from because if you if you landed the trick first time,
34:58
you go, oh, that was easy, and and you try to move
35:00
on to that son, you know. But I think learning all the ways
35:02
to fail first is really important, and I think that's big for like my
35:07
job and learning to code is a lot like that, like failing first,
35:12
and people get really burned out trying to learn how to code because it just
35:15
doesn't work in the beginning, and then you finally get it and then it's
35:19
a great feeling and then you keep rolling with that. What is the what
35:22
is the issue that our mutual friend has with your skat? Yeah, because
35:28
I have something to add after that, because I'm curious our our mutual friend,
35:32
Cush Patel he um, he's a guy that he's really good. He's
35:39
really he has like a natural ability to pick something up, like but when
35:45
he when that natural ability doesn't apply to the thing he's trying, he just
35:50
doesn't do it, Like he's like, Nope, that's not for me.
35:52
And it's like, well, yeah, okay, because you're really good picking
35:55
up a basketball and shooting it blindly doesn't mean that you know, we're gonna
36:00
go play this sport and you don't like it because you're not instantly like the
36:02
best at it. So yeah, I think it's it's fun from his perspective
36:06
too, to see him like and I'm like, well, that's the best
36:08
part. You know, being bad at it is the best part because then
36:10
you eventually get good at it, like, and that's that you know,
36:15
winning or that that overcoming that challenge, I think is what I really enjoy.
36:20
And maybe that's just from my disability that I've always had to overcome my
36:22
own challenges, and um, I think I really enjoy that feeling. And
36:27
I just applied to skateboarding, and I think I think that's the easiest way
36:30
to apply it is that you you fail, you fail, you fail,
36:34
and then you finally succeed and it's a great feeling and then you can carry
36:37
that into other things. So here's here's my issue then, because I was
36:40
I was feeling what you were, what you were saying, I was picking
36:43
up what you're putting down, and then I distinctly remember like, well maybe
36:47
not distinctly, being slightly intoxicated at coush his house, be like when I
36:52
first met him and in his bathroom having like the most inspirational sign that said,
36:57
like life is all about how you handle planned b So now I'm feeling
37:01
like I was lying to a little bit because this, but apparently in practice
37:07
it probably doesn't like I said that, that's just that's just kind of and
37:14
some of my optimism definitely comes from him like I was. I was definitely
37:19
more of a pessimist, and I was more negative on myself, like I
37:22
was harsher on myself. I think that kind of comes from my kind of
37:24
my family's values and kind of how we perceive each other and how we perceive
37:30
others. But I was definitely more negative, like, oh, I'm I'm
37:32
gonna fail this class. I'm never gonna I'm never gonna succeed, I'm never
37:37
going to be someone like like no one will treat me equally. And a
37:39
lot of a lot of meeting Cush and being able to spend time with him
37:44
was he kind of opened me up to like, nah, like it's about
37:46
it's about overcoming those challenges and trying to you know, just because someone slights
37:52
you or doesn't like you, you add that chip to your shoulder and use
37:57
it to empower yourself. So a lot of that comes from him as well,
38:00
and he was very enlightening. I met him freshman year. I was
38:04
not a freshman at thee of them, but my two friends from high school
38:08
were his like across the hall dorm roommates essentially, and so my friends were
38:15
way more academic than Cushion I were. And so I would go there on
38:20
Friday nights and they would be like, Oh, we're either gonna do homework
38:22
or we're gonna watch this movie that's in a random in a French language or
38:25
something. I was like, well, I'm I'm not gonna do that,
38:29
So I'm gonna go walk across the hall and see what cush is doing.
38:31
Oh, Kush, you want to play NBA two? K Okay, let's
38:34
go. Let's do something. So it was awesome to meet him and it
38:38
really changed the perspective. And then I eventually moved moved in with him junior
38:44
year, and that was awesome. We lived on him and I had the
38:46
attic in our like college house essentially, so we had like the third or
38:52
fourth Florida ourselves, and he had the master bedroom and I had I think
38:58
the room I was in wasn't technical a bedroom, but we made it work.
39:02
It had it had a small it had like a lowered ceiling on my
39:06
side, so I was probably the only guy in the house that could really
39:09
fit in that space. And I was like, Oh, I'll take the
39:13
attic room, like I got no. I would love to live in the
39:15
attic. Like, it'll be quieter up here, it'll be warmer in the
39:17
winter. Like this seems like a win win for me. And it was
39:20
kind of like a little, you know, hobbit space I could have to
39:22
myself. And I really I really enjoyed living there. It was really fun.
39:28
It was super fun. You've used all of these times in your life
39:32
to learn and grow, and you've put the right people that you need in
39:37
your life to help you grow. And I love that. And I hope
39:40
Kush listens to this and realizes how much of a difference he made in your
39:45
life, because he's a good dude. He's a very good dude. He's
39:47
yeah. And so I'm glad that you guys have been able to push each
39:51
other because I know too and I don't want to speak for him too much,
39:54
but I know he was pretty much the only Indian guy growing up in
39:58
Minnesota, and so I'm sure you being the only little person him being the
40:01
only Indian guys, Yeah, could relate a little bit. Yeah. He
40:06
was kind of from a smaller town, like two hours north of the cities,
40:09
which is kind of funny because I had my two of my closest friends
40:14
are Indian as well and from high school, and they would come to our
40:17
house parties and things. But then guys from where Cush is from just assume
40:22
my Indian friends were Cush, Like, oh, here's the brown guy.
40:25
This is Cush, and my friends are like, what the hell, You've
40:30
never seen another brown person before? Like, are you serious? Right now?
40:34
My friends would get they would get heated, like to the point where
40:36
they kind of just stopped coming to our parties. But it was just like,
40:38
yeah, these guys drove two hours down, they've been you know,
40:42
I've never seen these dudes in my entire life, and they walk into my
40:45
house and they go, hey, Cush. So there was a little bit
40:52
of that, but um, yeah, and him and I did relate to
40:54
that, and that was easy where it was like, yeah, he's he
40:57
was always treated differently. I was always treated differently. Obviously, his name
41:00
is like a punchline and a joke that people make fun of used to make
41:02
fun of him for so in Minnesota he got a little more than that that
41:07
I think he would living in Colorado, so um or Portland when you go
41:12
up in Portland. So yeah, so it's just a little different situation.
41:15
But yeah, we definitely related. And early on it was like I don't
41:17
really know this guy, but he just keeps inviting me and we hang out.
41:22
We have like one on one time and like the first the first day
41:24
we moved into the new place, he's like, oh, I need to
41:28
I found this thing on Craigslist I needed for my room or like okay,
41:30
he's like you're coming with me. I'm like okay, Like I have nothing
41:32
to do, but yeah sure. So then we got in the car and
41:36
then we just we drove through Minneapolis during traffic and we had a lot to
41:38
talk about. It was kind of like it was fun and he was kind
41:42
of trying to roast me, and at the time I was like, I
41:43
don't really know you like that, maybe maybe get to know me before you
41:47
try to push my button out of it. Justin mentioned something earlier about you,
41:53
you know, being able to have like people in your life that are
41:57
able to support you through these somewhat difficult old times. Are definitely difficult times
42:00
early on, but you know then your your outlook seems to have changed and
42:05
helped you a lot through a lot of difficult times after Um, but what
42:08
are the things that we could do? Sam, Like, well, what
42:10
are the things that like other people can do, society can to what can
42:14
they change to make life better for for little people, for um, for
42:17
the community. I don't I don't know if there really is a whole lot.
42:22
I think I think it's just like have an open mind. I think
42:25
that's easier I think for me at least, like going like early on,
42:31
I kind of pushed myself away from people or like if if like a group
42:36
of people talk to me a certain way, I just I just write it
42:37
off like like no, I'm good on this, like I'm I don't need
42:42
to surround myself with this, and um, I think it's just have an
42:45
open mind and you know, respect people's boundaries in space, like you know,
42:50
if someone's got their headphones in and they're a little person or whatever.
42:53
You don't have to go over and make a show of like trying to meet
42:55
them or talk to them or whatever. But I think that I think it's
42:59
that and I've been called not really called out, but like you know,
43:02
at a park or something and a kid comes by and goes, why is
43:05
that man so short? You know, that's not that's not on the parents
43:08
to try to, like you know, supervisor instruct their kids on, you
43:13
know, trying to be nicer or kind or open their minds to the world.
43:16
But I don't really mind that from children, but when it happens from
43:20
adults, it's it's kind of like didn't didn't someone raise you? Don't you
43:24
have manners? Like why are you talking to me like that? And it's
43:29
just yeah, have an open mind. And I think maybe this is just
43:34
from my perspective, but once in a while I get someone that thinks I
43:37
also have like a mental disability, and so they like talk slow or they
43:42
talk really loud, and it's like I can keep up with this conversation,
43:49
like I don't you know, just because I'm physically disabled doesn't mean I'm also
43:52
mentally disabled. So I think there is a little bit of that, And
43:59
I don't know. I think I think as long as people just have an
44:00
open mind and they respect others, I don't. I don't think there's really
44:04
anything else you can do. I mean, maybe if you see like a
44:06
little person at the store or something and they can't reach something on the shelf,
44:09
then just grab it for him. That's always a hard thing for me.
44:14
It's like there's a there's an ingredient I really like at the grocery store
44:16
here, and it's on the top shelf, and it's like a you know,
44:20
only a six foot person could really reach up there and grab that,
44:22
and so I either have to find like an attendant that's tall enough to reach
44:24
it for me, or I wait for someone to walk down the aisle and
44:28
then I have them grab it for me. So it's just, you know,
44:31
I think it's just have an open mind. I don't. It's kind
44:35
of easier to judge people back based on their reception of you, and so
44:39
it's like, is this person worth my time or not? And yeah,
44:44
I think I think just having an open mind is really all it is.
44:46
It sounds like you just want to be treated with the same respect that everyone
44:51
else gets and which is hard. It's really hard. Yeah. Yeah,
44:55
Well we are getting to the end of the episode. I've got one more
45:00
question I really want to ask. I heard an interview with Peter Dinklich,
45:07
who is amazing, just great, go yeah, but go where. He
45:13
was talking about older movies, especially Disney movies, and he said Disney is
45:17
trying to sponge and clean up their act in all these older movies and take
45:24
out a lot of the racist things, take out some of the racist things
45:28
of Songs of the South that that movie, he said. But Snow White
45:31
and the Seven Dwarves persists. There is less of an emphasis on trying to
45:37
change our perspective towards people with physical disabilities, especially little people. So I
45:45
know this is kind of teeing you up and just saying go for it.
45:49
But what do you think about how little people are portrayed in the media and
45:52
what would you like to see change going forward. That's a hard question to
45:57
answer. I think, Yeah, I don't like the movie The Snow White
46:00
in the Seven Dwarfs. It was always one of my mom's favorite to put
46:02
on for us, and I think eventually it was just kind of like,
46:07
like, Mom, you're kind of missing the point. You know that that
46:12
is kind of that is kind of why I put on the little bioacent that.
46:17
You know, my parents are normal heighted, like think you not.
46:20
They cannot understand what I'm going through. And even they make comments about other
46:23
little people and it's kind of like you raised one, like shouldn't you know
46:28
better than to do that? But it just kind of comes out, Yeah,
46:31
a little little anecdote in the middle of this. Um We're in Los
46:35
Angeles. I was showing my mom beautiful Pasadena. I loved it there.
46:37
It's where Caltic was, It's where JPL was. I had an awesome time.
46:40
But obviously it's a big you know, it's a big media city,
46:44
and it's a big movie town. And out walks a little person with his
46:47
he's got like a three piece suit on and a little little like English cap
46:52
and he comes right out and he maybe he's thirties or early forties. And
46:57
he comes out and he just lights a cigarette, just woom, steps out
47:00
of the building, lights a cigarette. My mom makes a comment about how
47:04
like the cigarettes are stunning his height or his you know, his size,
47:07
And I was like, mom, you what, like I'm twenty four years
47:15
old, like like you can't say that, like you can what, like
47:21
what am I if if that's how you think about him? Then what do
47:22
you think of me? And that kind of changed my perspective on the things.
47:27
But I don't really care if Snow White and the Seven Dwarves like gets
47:31
deleted or they change it or they change it to like ever people talk about
47:35
changing it to Gnomes. I'm gonna at that point just make it Dwarves,
47:38
Like I don't I think for the big part for me too, like when
47:43
I ask people to relate to me speaking of Peter Dinklage, the first chapter
47:47
of Tyrian in a Game of Thrones, the first George R. Martin book,
47:52
That chapter made me cry. That was probably the most I've ever related
47:58
to somebody else in my entire life. And it was written by a man
48:01
that was not a little person. So that person had the understanding and like
48:07
the perspective of someone that was different and someone that was disabled, and then
48:13
they put it into like this perfect understanding and like the mix of like frustration
48:19
and rage and sadness and depression and kind of everything that came with it,
48:23
you know, because I don't know how much you guys have watched Game of
48:25
Thrones or Red Game of Thrones. But obviously Terrian has a brother, a
48:30
younger brother that is the golden Knight. He is he is the one,
48:35
you know, he's basically they're prepping him to be the best of the best.
48:37
And it's because he's full sized or I think he's the Actually I think
48:42
in the books he's the older brother. But um, in my life,
48:45
I have a younger brother that's kind of like that. He's the golden child.
48:49
He's always succeeded, he's all he's never failed. Like, it's kind
48:52
of the same situation. And once I read that, that was kind of
48:55
through college and through after college, people would ask be like, oh,
49:00
what is it like to be a little person or a dwarf? And I
49:01
say, read that chapter, and you read that chapter and you will know
49:05
exactly how I feel. That's the closest I've ever come to relating to ever
49:08
anyone else. Is a fictional character in a book written by a man that's
49:13
full hided. Yeah, thank you, Like yeah, yeah, man.
49:19
This immediately is my favorite interview we've ever done because it's such a unique perspective.
49:25
You've given such a personal view of all these things in your life and
49:31
how they have impacted you, and honestly, the coolest thing is you've come
49:37
out stronger on every single one of these things. And man, that is
49:40
so cool. Thank you. Yeah. I think it comes from my dad
49:45
has a work ethic that's like second and none. He works one hundred to
49:49
one hundred and twenty hours a week. He doesn't have to. He owns
49:52
the restaurant. You know, we work, but he's there every night and
49:55
he's grinding it. And growing up, I only saw him on Sundays.
50:00
And you know, if you've guys played sports, Sunday is the championship day
50:02
for tournaments and everything. So for me, it was like a big motivating
50:07
factor to like, Okay, we got to get to Sunday because I want
50:08
my dad to come watch us play soccer. So that was always like a
50:13
you know, he always had this machine behind him. He never finished high
50:15
school. He started work at thirteen or fourteen or something, and he's been
50:20
working his whole life ever since. And so I think, you know,
50:22
people like to say that I'm a genius or brilliant or whatever, but I
50:27
think it's really just the work ethic that comes from following my father's footsteps.
50:30
Yea again, thank you Sam. Yeah, I don't have many other words.
50:37
Man. I think we're lucky. We're lucky to have you as a
50:39
friend. We're lucky to have you come on and share with us. I
50:44
think I don't want to speak for Justin, but I will, as I
50:46
usually who do anytime. Anytime I say I don't want to speak for him,
50:50
I do. Anyway, take it away. Yeah, we're lucky to
50:54
have you on this show. Man. Thank you Sam, Thank you,
50:57
Thank you for giving me an opportunity to share my voice. I really appreciate
51:00
that. Of course, everything Sam was eloquently stated, very charismatic. It
51:07
helped me understand you, and I hope our audience also understands a little bit
51:12
more. Hopefully this is their Tyrian Lanister chapter and they understand you a little
51:20
bit better. That's the goal. Awesome, Thank you guys. Well again,
51:23
Thank you Sam, our listeners, we hope you appreciate it today's episode,
51:29
like we do it at the end of every single episode. You could
51:31
find us wherever you get your podcasts, on Apple podcast, Spotify and any
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51:43
On Spotify, you could leave us a five star. On social media,
51:46
you can find us an at Millennial MHC. We're excited to share this episode
51:51
with you all. We hope you enjoy it, and before we leave,
51:53
we want to remind you like always take our elementals