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Hey Hun: What an MLM Million Dollar Earner Wants You to Know (Part 1) · She's On The Money

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello.
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Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud or the
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Speaker 2: Order Kerni Whaltbury and a waddery woman. And before we
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Speaker 2: get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would
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Speaker 2: like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of
0:14
Speaker 2: which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging
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Speaker 2: the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through
0:23
Speaker 2: as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and
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Speaker 2: the storytelling of you to make a difference for today
0:30
Speaker 2: and lasting impact for tomorrow.
0:33
Speaker 1: Let's get into it.
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Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money.
0:57
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast
1:00
Speaker 1: that's all about real strategies for growing your finances, not
1:03
Speaker 1: fake ones for growing a downline. I'm Victoria Devine, finance expert,
1:08
Speaker 1: MLM exposer and full time skeptic of Get Rich Quick Schemes.
1:13
Speaker 1: If you've been following our series on MLMs, you know
1:17
Speaker 1: we've been peeling back the layers on this achlitterary yet
1:20
Speaker 1: gritty world. But today I have something extra special for you.
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Speaker 1: An MLM million dollar earner. Yep, you heard that right,
1:29
Speaker 1: A genuine unicorn level success story in the world of MLMs,
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Speaker 1: the kind of story that the brochures promise and the
1:37
Speaker 1: hashtags romanticize. But he's the twist. She's left it all behind,
1:43
Speaker 1: and not only that, she's turned her energy towards exposing
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Speaker 1: the truth about the system that she once thrived in.
1:50
Speaker 1: Joining me is none other than Emily Lynn Paulson. She's
1:54
Speaker 1: the author of Heyhun, Sales, Sisterhood and Supremacy, and the
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Speaker 1: Other Lies behind Multi level Marketing. Emily isn't just a
2:02
Speaker 1: rare success story, She's also the sharpest critic of the
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Speaker 1: industry's predatory practices. Emily, I'm so excited for this episode.
2:11
Speaker 1: Welcome to She's on the money from the other side
2:13
Speaker 1: of the world.
2:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's my favorite topic to
2:17
Speaker 4: talk about.
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Speaker 1: Really, It's almost like you wrote an entire book about it,
2:21
Speaker 1: you know, I adore it. I also just low key
2:25
Speaker 1: the name of your book, Heyhun. Oh, it makes me
2:28
Speaker 1: so excited. You just know it's going to be a
2:30
Speaker 1: good book, full of all of the juiciest details, and
2:34
Speaker 1: it is. So can we dive straight in?
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Speaker 4: Sure? What do you want to know? First?
2:39
Speaker 1: With my background as a financial Advisor and having just
2:43
Speaker 1: written a business book, I have so many thoughts and
2:47
Speaker 1: feelings about the I guess flaws in the MLM business model,
2:51
Speaker 1: and as someone who has a background in psychology, I
2:54
Speaker 1: also take a major issue with I guess what you
2:58
Speaker 1: would call the manipulation tactics that these companies use. And
3:02
Speaker 1: that's why I want to break this chat into two parts. First,
3:05
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the business side, and then
3:07
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the psychological side of MLMs, because,
3:09
Speaker 1: like I feel like the business side, yeah, pervy, but
3:12
Speaker 1: like the manipulation, we all just get so frustrated with Emily.
3:18
Speaker 1: First off, I have to say the book was a
3:21
Speaker 1: very fun read. It is spot on. I feel like
3:24
Speaker 1: it captures the like slightly too friendly vibe that we
3:27
Speaker 1: all experience in our inboxes. Had you had many of
3:32
Speaker 1: those messages before you'd actually joined an MLM yourself, did you,
3:36
Speaker 1: I guess know much about them at the time or
3:38
Speaker 1: was it a bit of a mystery?
3:39
Speaker 4: I would say I was blissfully ignorant, and that kind
3:42
Speaker 4: of made me the best target because I had been
3:45
Speaker 4: to tupperware parties and legging parties and different things. I
3:49
Speaker 4: bought the jewelry. But I didn't really understand. It was
3:53
Speaker 4: just kind of like you go to your friend's house,
3:54
Speaker 4: you drink wine, you buy a few things, and you leave.
3:57
Speaker 4: I didn't really know it was a hierarchical structure.
4:00
Speaker 1: Why would you You don't ask about the business model.
4:03
Speaker 1: You're like, hey, these leggings are cute.
4:06
Speaker 4: Yeah, and even if they do, you know, talk about like, oh, yeah,
4:09
Speaker 4: this is something you can do. Also, it isn't until
4:13
Speaker 4: like the one on one or after you sign the
4:15
Speaker 4: dotted line that you realize what's involved. And I think
4:18
Speaker 4: that's why I was such good prey, because I knew enough,
4:23
Speaker 4: Like I knew enough to know that Okay, yeah I
4:25
Speaker 4: can throw parties, Yeah I can work a website. I
4:29
Speaker 4: can you know, I like to buy stuff, Like those
4:32
Speaker 4: are the qualifications.
4:33
Speaker 1: And that's fun.
4:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it sounded fun. It was like something to
4:36
Speaker 4: do money. It was you know, going out drinking and
4:40
Speaker 4: like it was all the things I wanted to do.
4:42
Speaker 4: But I didn't really know what was behind it. So
4:45
Speaker 4: I would say, you know, yes, and no, I knew
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Speaker 4: some I've been targeted a little bit, but I didn't
4:50
Speaker 4: realize how predatory it was.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that makes absolute sense, And I feel like
4:54
Speaker 1: that's the story I'm hearing in my damns from basically
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Speaker 1: everybody who's joined and is either considering leaving or has left.
5:00
Speaker 1: They're like, I didn't know, Like I was blissfully unaware.
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Speaker 1: Seems to be the tagline here of these We'll get
5:08
Speaker 1: onto it later, but I feel like you were right.
5:10
Speaker 1: You are the perfect target. Oh no, no, what was
5:13
Speaker 1: your life like before MLM? Paint us a little bit
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Speaker 1: of a picture. What was going on in your world
5:18
Speaker 1: before MLMs became part of the story.
5:20
Speaker 4: Yeah. So it was twenty fourteen and my youngest child
5:25
Speaker 4: was two, So I had five kids under nine years old.
5:29
Speaker 1: Oh my god. So I was just you're having fun.
5:32
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was so much fun. So, you know, I
5:34
Speaker 4: was sleeping a ton, and you know, I was just
5:38
Speaker 4: kind of run ragged. Like from the outside, I had
5:40
Speaker 4: a very good life. I loved being a mom, and
5:44
Speaker 4: yet at the same time, I also felt a little
5:46
Speaker 4: bit trapped, and I was at the point where I
5:49
Speaker 4: knew we weren't having any more kids. But the thought
5:51
Speaker 4: of going back to the workforce suddenly was like, well, shoot, like,
5:55
Speaker 4: how am I going to do this? Childcare for five kids?
5:57
Speaker 4: Would be ridiculous, like my husband's job is not flexible.
6:00
Speaker 4: We've kind of followed his career, and now like what
6:03
Speaker 4: am I going to do? So I had this desire
6:06
Speaker 4: to like escape and get out and get a break
6:09
Speaker 4: and also figure out some way to earn money. So
6:13
Speaker 4: I think, you know, I was feeling a little bit
6:15
Speaker 4: lost at that time.
6:17
Speaker 1: That feels really reasonable and also something that I'm sure
6:20
Speaker 1: a lot of mums can resonate with. You kind of
6:23
Speaker 1: sometimes lose yourself a little bit. You're like, oh wait,
6:26
Speaker 1: I've you know, prioritized my husband's career, and now what
6:29
Speaker 1: am I going to do? You write childcare. I don't
6:31
Speaker 1: know what it costs in the US, but in Australia
6:34
Speaker 1: childcare is astronomically expensive. Like to give you a little
6:38
Speaker 1: bit of context, I have a child in daycare and
6:41
Speaker 1: we pay one hundred and ninety two dollars a day
6:44
Speaker 1: and for that there are rebates and stuff available, but
6:48
Speaker 1: it really it doesn't come close to making it reasonable,
6:51
Speaker 1: especially if you had five kids like you just it
6:53
Speaker 1: would be more than a full time salary worth of
6:56
Speaker 1: daycare yeap.
6:57
Speaker 4: And I think that's why you know MLA can thrive,
7:01
Speaker 4: that it's because there is no safety net. I never
7:04
Speaker 4: fault anyone for taking that as an option, because you know,
7:08
Speaker 4: we don't have affordable childcare and we don't have you know,
7:11
Speaker 4: flexible paid leave or you know, jobs are really hard
7:16
Speaker 4: for moms to have because moms are generally the ones
7:19
Speaker 4: who have to take off for sick days and all
7:21
Speaker 4: of that, and so we don't have safety nets. So
7:24
Speaker 4: I get it, and that's why I joined one because
7:26
Speaker 4: that was the option available to me at the time.
7:28
Speaker 1: And it sounds really attractive, right. And this is why
7:31
Speaker 1: when we have been doing our MLM series, I haven't
7:34
Speaker 1: named names of people in MLMs because I just honestly
7:38
Speaker 1: I feel sorry for them because they've been taken down
7:41
Speaker 1: this beautiful garden path and I feel like they've drunk
7:44
Speaker 1: the kool aid and they think that this is all
7:47
Speaker 1: sunshine and roses, when in reality, they've been taken advantage of.
7:51
Speaker 1: And that breaks my heart. And it's not my job
7:54
Speaker 1: to call them out. It's my job to call the
7:56
Speaker 1: system out and help I guess illuminate what that looks
8:01
Speaker 1: like and why you might be taken advantage of, because
8:03
Speaker 1: I kind of want to stay a safe place if
8:05
Speaker 1: you go oh, Hey, they I've been watching your content
8:08
Speaker 1: and it's been a bit confronting because I've just realized
8:11
Speaker 1: that I have drunk the kool aid and I am
8:13
Speaker 1: actually victim to this system. I want to be that
8:17
Speaker 1: safe place for people to turn and you would get
8:20
Speaker 1: this all the time. I'm absolutely certain of it, but
8:23
Speaker 1: it's wild. The more I talk about it, the more
8:25
Speaker 1: people are sliding into my dms, going hey, they, have
8:27
Speaker 1: you got any advice for leaving? Because I've just realized
8:30
Speaker 1: that's me and that's really heartbreaking. And I mean we've
8:33
Speaker 1: been talking about it a lot in She's on the Money,
8:37
Speaker 1: so on the podcast and in the She's on the
8:39
Speaker 1: Money community, but also on my personal Instagram, which is
8:42
Speaker 1: where I go a little bit more rogue. You've probably
8:43
Speaker 1: seen the difference, like nobody stops me from posting on
8:46
Speaker 1: my personal Instagram. But there's a vetting process on the
8:50
Speaker 1: more serious business side. But we know legally the difference
8:55
Speaker 1: between a multi level marketing business and a pyramid scheme
8:59
Speaker 1: is a but from an insider's point of view, talk
9:03
Speaker 1: me through it. How does the business actually work?
9:06
Speaker 4: So there is no difference. In fact, pyramid schemes are
9:12
Speaker 4: actually more lucrative.
9:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd make more money. Bye, don't join an MLM,
9:19
Speaker 1: just go straight for the pyramid schemes.
9:21
Speaker 4: Great pyramid and that's a sad reality. And you know
9:24
Speaker 4: the idea of a pyramid, you know, I've ember thinks
9:27
Speaker 4: so like the little triangle, but like in reality, the
9:30
Speaker 4: pyramid would be like so flat because there's like very
9:34
Speaker 4: few people a top the people at the bottom. It
9:36
Speaker 4: would go out past the earth, you know, it's so wide.
9:40
Speaker 4: So pyramids not even the right you know shape. But
9:43
Speaker 4: just for our intensive purposes, a pyramid scheme and an
9:46
Speaker 4: MLM are the same in the sense that it's all
9:49
Speaker 4: about recruiting into the system, and it has nothing to
9:52
Speaker 4: do with what you're selling or how you're doing it.
9:55
Speaker 4: It's just about collecting people. And so when the messaging is, oh,
10:00
Speaker 4: I've got these great products, but you know you should
10:03
Speaker 4: buy in to get the biggest discount, or you should
10:06
Speaker 4: join because this is a great opportunity. You know, you
10:08
Speaker 4: got to ask yourself, like what would be the difference
10:11
Speaker 4: between just giving you one hundred dollars and asking five
10:14
Speaker 4: people for one hundred dollars? You know what is so
10:17
Speaker 4: great about this product?
10:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true it's scary.
10:20
Speaker 4: And the reality is the products aren't special different. There's
10:24
Speaker 4: nothing necessarily wrong with some of them. Some are problematic,
10:29
Speaker 4: but for the most part they're just run of the
10:31
Speaker 4: mill skincare, you know, diet pills, shakes, whatever, they're selling, leggings.
10:37
Speaker 4: But it isn't about the products at all. It is
10:39
Speaker 4: about the mission, the system and this bigger thing. It's about,
10:44
Speaker 4: you know, this mission to fulfill whatever. It's this like
10:48
Speaker 4: self fulfilling prophecy of nothing really, you know, it's yeah,
10:54
Speaker 4: prosperity gospel, all of that.
10:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, from all my research, it seems that I guess
10:59
Speaker 1: at mL structure. You know, obviously we need to stipulate
11:03
Speaker 1: that here in Australia, and I'm pretty sure in the
11:05
Speaker 1: US a pyramid scheme is illegal. But we're just talking
11:08
Speaker 1: context and comparison. We're not saying go and do a
11:11
Speaker 1: pyramid scheme. But it seems from all of my research
11:15
Speaker 1: that an MLM is actually more harmful than a pyramid
11:20
Speaker 1: scheme because in a pyramid scheme you kind of have
11:23
Speaker 1: that once off investment, like you invest and then you know,
11:26
Speaker 1: the pyramid does its thing, whereas with MLM you invest
11:29
Speaker 1: over time through like I guess product purchases and you know,
11:33
Speaker 1: needing to meet your quota every month. Like I feel
11:36
Speaker 1: like that seems to be a consistent thing. How much
11:40
Speaker 1: pressure did you feel to invest your own money into
11:45
Speaker 1: I guess your product or your business?
11:47
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean that's where no matter what, even if
11:50
Speaker 4: it's not a product that you want, you become a
11:53
Speaker 4: consumer because there is a minimum requirement and there's always
11:56
Speaker 4: a caveat. And this is how they stayed legal. They
11:59
Speaker 4: make so okay, you don't have to buy the product.
12:02
Speaker 4: You can join. You know, you can join and not
12:05
Speaker 4: have to buy the product. But if you don't buy
12:06
Speaker 4: the product, then you're not getting commission. And then what's
12:10
Speaker 4: the point of joining in the scheme?
12:13
Speaker 1: Oh, that's so snaky.
12:15
Speaker 4: It's talked around and it's always a little bits. Like
12:19
Speaker 4: you said, it's like death buy a thousand paper cuts, right,
12:21
Speaker 4: it's like, well, you've got this twenty five dollars website fee,
12:23
Speaker 4: and you're like, oh, twenty five dollars, No big deal,
12:25
Speaker 4: that's not much. Yeah actually yeah. And when it's compared
12:28
Speaker 4: to a business, and this is another place where kind
12:32
Speaker 4: of I'll even say for myself, business alliteracy, Like I
12:35
Speaker 4: wasn't a business person. I don't have a degree in business.
12:37
Speaker 4: You know, I was a chemist before kids. Like so
12:41
Speaker 4: for me running a business lots of air quotes, it's
12:44
Speaker 4: not a business. You know, you're a ten ninety nine contractor.
12:46
Speaker 4: But they use all these comparisons, like, you know, if
12:49
Speaker 4: you started your own brick and mortar store, you'd have
12:51
Speaker 4: to pay for rent, you'd have to pay for products,
12:53
Speaker 4: you'd have to pay for and so these little purchases
12:56
Speaker 4: seem very nominal when they're compared to an actual business, right,
13:02
Speaker 4: but they're not related. So it's a ridiculous comparison. It's
13:05
Speaker 4: comparing apples and oranges. But it's easy to get in
13:08
Speaker 4: that mindset. Well, okay, I guess if I spend twenty
13:11
Speaker 4: five dollars and then another hundred, I'm going to use
13:13
Speaker 4: those products anyway.
13:15
Speaker 5: And if I can make money off it, I can
13:17
Speaker 5: earn my money back. I mean, you just start talking
13:19
Speaker 5: yourself into this. And you know, a payramid scheme, you
13:23
Speaker 5: don't have people on the sideline saying just stay just
13:26
Speaker 5: stay in, just keep working. It works if you work
13:29
Speaker 5: it just one more month.
13:30
Speaker 4: You know, you have people cheering you along and also
13:33
Speaker 4: doing the same thing. So it's like, Oh, do you
13:36
Speaker 4: think it's weird that you know, I have to buy
13:38
Speaker 4: another serum even though I haven't used the last one.
13:41
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, but you know you can gift it. You could.
13:44
Speaker 4: You're surrounded by people doing the same thing, and so
13:46
Speaker 4: I know that gets into the psychology that we'll talk
13:48
Speaker 4: about later. But it's that group thing.
13:50
Speaker 1: We'll talk about it, we'll talk about it. Yeah, Oh
13:53
Speaker 1: my gosh. I feel like that's the pervioust part for me,
13:56
Speaker 1: having like I've done a couple of psyche degrees and
13:59
Speaker 1: I adore or the psychology of money. I adore the
14:02
Speaker 1: psychology of literally why people make the decisions that they make,
14:06
Speaker 1: And this just marries the two together so perfectly, which
14:09
Speaker 1: is why it's probably I don't know, a hyperfixation of
14:12
Speaker 1: mine at the moment, but I have had a lot
14:14
Speaker 1: of people in my DMS and messaging and emailing me
14:17
Speaker 1: saying what's the difference between like a multi level marketing
14:20
Speaker 1: business and a franchise, Because lots of people, if you're
14:22
Speaker 1: inside an MLM will say, oh, it's like having your
14:25
Speaker 1: own franchise, but you don't have to pay for the
14:27
Speaker 1: bricks and mortar store and having read your book, You've
14:30
Speaker 1: talked a lot about this in your book. Can you
14:32
Speaker 1: explain how they are different?
14:34
Speaker 4: Yes, And it's so interesting once you're on the other
14:37
Speaker 4: side of it, because this was like a talking point
14:40
Speaker 4: when I talked at presentations of why people should join, like, oh,
14:43
Speaker 4: it's a virtual franchise, but it's less than a thousand dollars,
14:46
Speaker 4: and you can't open a taco bell for less than
14:48
Speaker 4: a million dollars or I mean, I would use this language.
14:51
Speaker 4: So it's just it's funny that that became part of
14:54
Speaker 4: the normal vernacular. But it's different in every way. You know.
14:58
Speaker 4: I can go down town and there's a Starbucks in
15:02
Speaker 4: a grocery store and then there's Starbucks next door, and
15:05
Speaker 4: you think, oh, well, gosh, if a Starbucks can be
15:07
Speaker 4: on every corner, right, it's so saturated. But they do
15:10
Speaker 4: so much research. Starbucks figures out like what are people
15:13
Speaker 4: shopping habits? The people who are buying the coffee while
15:16
Speaker 4: they're shopping, you're totally different than the people driving through
15:19
Speaker 4: and getting one. So you need both. And it's a
15:22
Speaker 4: location that's accessible. Any Starbucks store that opens has a purpose,
15:26
Speaker 4: and that's why sometimes they close and sometimes new ones
15:29
Speaker 4: open because they have so dialed in to how they're
15:33
Speaker 4: going to make money back. That's just one aspect of
15:36
Speaker 4: a franchise. There's many, many more. There's also rules with
15:40
Speaker 4: franchises that you have to do a certain amount of
15:44
Speaker 4: a waiting period before you can actually get the McDonald's
15:48
Speaker 4: or whatever franchise you're purchasing, so that you can have
15:51
Speaker 4: time to think about it, which shouldn't be built into
15:54
Speaker 4: any purchase, any big decision, any big financial decision. As
16:00
Speaker 4: an MLM, it's completely the opposite. You are encouraged to
16:03
Speaker 4: have as much competition and as small of an area as.
16:06
Speaker 1: Possible, which is insane to me. It's like recruit your
16:09
Speaker 1: mom and you're like, hold on, wouldn't you both have
16:11
Speaker 1: the same customer?
16:12
Speaker 4: You would? Yeah, So your recruiting competition in an already
16:15
Speaker 4: saturated market, and not only within your own. You know,
16:18
Speaker 4: I was in Rhodana Fields, for example. I also was
16:21
Speaker 4: competing with Beauty Counter and Monate and you know all
16:24
Speaker 4: these other products that maybe had overlapping portfolios. Nobody needs
16:30
Speaker 4: that much serum, right, So it was way more than
16:34
Speaker 4: the area I lived could contain could purchase from. And
16:38
Speaker 4: then not only that, but you could buy stuff online.
16:40
Speaker 4: So just the idea that it's a franchise is so
16:44
Speaker 4: out there because there's zero research done and it's encouraged
16:48
Speaker 4: to be more saturated than not. And you're also encouraged
16:52
Speaker 4: not to have a waiting period but to sign up
16:54
Speaker 4: as quickly as possible. There's always these like sign up
16:58
Speaker 4: this week and you get this free, or you know,
17:01
Speaker 4: you can get a refund. That was a big thing.
17:03
Speaker 4: It's like there's no commitment. If you join, you can
17:06
Speaker 4: pay this business kit fee and you'll get your thousand
17:09
Speaker 4: dollars back after sixty days. If you're not interested, well
17:12
Speaker 4: that's a load of crap, because guess what, you're going
17:16
Speaker 4: to have a thousand boss babes you know, on your
17:18
Speaker 4: ass telling you not to return it and telling you
17:20
Speaker 4: you just need to work harder. So it could not
17:23
Speaker 4: be less like a franchise. It's it's much more like
17:27
Speaker 4: a pyramid scheme than a franchise, that's for sure.
17:30
Speaker 1: And I feel like these questions come because we don't
17:32
Speaker 1: know what we don't know. Hold that thought, because after
17:35
Speaker 1: the break, we're going to dig into how MLMs legally
17:38
Speaker 1: separate themselves from pyramid schemes and whether those comparisons to
17:43
Speaker 1: franchises hold up. Spoiler alert, they don't stick around. All right,
17:51
Speaker 1: we are back. And something else that I find interesting
17:54
Speaker 1: and I kind of want to like put here as
17:57
Speaker 1: maybe like just a conversation market you could say, is
18:01
Speaker 1: there are lots of differences right economically between Australia and
18:05
Speaker 1: the US. And I think a lot of the time
18:08
Speaker 1: as we live in our little island away from most things,
18:12
Speaker 1: and like everything's bigger in America, and so I think
18:15
Speaker 1: that when Australians look at multi level marketing businesses, we go, well,
18:20
Speaker 1: it's nothing like what happens in the US. Like it's
18:22
Speaker 1: not like that because you know, we don't have the
18:26
Speaker 1: aggressive religion overlays and we don't have, you know, the
18:29
Speaker 1: scale that they have, when in reality we do. Like
18:33
Speaker 1: the reality is the businesses that you're talking about, Emily
18:37
Speaker 1: are actually the identical businesses here in Australia. So like
18:41
Speaker 1: we are talking and like it's been a few years,
18:43
Speaker 1: so like it took a while for like Monee to
18:45
Speaker 1: get to Australia and we got Rodin and Fields recently
18:49
Speaker 1: as well, and like we actually have all of them
18:52
Speaker 1: and they are not different. They have been cut and
18:56
Speaker 1: paced from the US for an Australian market, and I think,
18:59
Speaker 1: what you know, and we'll get into the psychology of
19:01
Speaker 1: it soon. I'm just like, I guess, chumping at the
19:04
Speaker 1: bit trying to get there. But when you talk about
19:07
Speaker 1: the psychology of it, we actually do have the religious
19:10
Speaker 1: overlays as well in play, it's just not as obvious.
19:14
Speaker 1: I feel like Americans are a lot more like open
19:18
Speaker 1: about their religion and open about posting it and going,
19:21
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm so glad that God helped me
19:23
Speaker 1: do x y Z on their Instagram posts. But I
19:26
Speaker 1: think in Australia we're a little bit more nuanced because
19:29
Speaker 1: we know that religion isn't so big here, so we
19:31
Speaker 1: don't want to turn away a consumer that might go, oh,
19:34
Speaker 1: if that's religious, I'm not interested. So it's a little
19:37
Speaker 1: bit more hidden, but it absolutely is here. And I
19:39
Speaker 1: think that, you know, That's why I was like, I
19:41
Speaker 1: just want to pop this here and say no, no, no,
19:44
Speaker 1: what Emily is talking about, because I think it's so
19:45
Speaker 1: easy sometimes to go she's in the US, it must
19:49
Speaker 1: be a little bit different.
19:50
Speaker 4: It's not.
19:50
Speaker 1: It's identical, and I think that's what is so frustrating
19:55
Speaker 1: because again back to my history, I was a financial
19:59
Speaker 1: advisor and I now have this podcast that thankfully takes
20:03
Speaker 1: me all over the world, and I have been lucky
20:06
Speaker 1: enough to go to the US a number of times
20:08
Speaker 1: to go to finance conferences. And one thing that I
20:11
Speaker 1: find different about the Australian market versus the US market
20:15
Speaker 1: is in Australia, it is the expert's job to protect
20:20
Speaker 1: the consumer. So here in Australia I have to always say,
20:23
Speaker 1: you know, if I was working as a financial advisor,
20:26
Speaker 1: I'd have to be like, okay, Emily, like sit down,
20:27
Speaker 1: I need to take you through all of the risks
20:29
Speaker 1: and what's going on here and how this works so
20:32
Speaker 1: that you're making the right decision, and like, you know,
20:34
Speaker 1: we've got laws. So if I was recommending a financial
20:37
Speaker 1: services product, I would have to give you three products
20:40
Speaker 1: to compare. Like I am as the expert, the I
20:44
Speaker 1: guess security, Whereas in the US it's actually the consumer's
20:48
Speaker 1: responsibility to do their own research, and a financial advisor
20:51
Speaker 1: I can say whatever they would like to say. They
20:53
Speaker 1: can go out to market and go, hey, hey, Victoria,
20:56
Speaker 1: I think that product A is the best. Go there
20:58
Speaker 1: and it's not a good or a thing. It's just
21:01
Speaker 1: the difference in responsibility. But I think in Australia it's
21:05
Speaker 1: become quite dangerous because we live in this society where
21:08
Speaker 1: we expect our experts to have our best interests at heart,
21:12
Speaker 1: because we are legally bound by that. Like I was
21:14
Speaker 1: bound by that. Every single service provider in Australia has
21:19
Speaker 1: to make sure that the consumer's in the right position.
21:21
Speaker 1: We now have this American model coming into Australia and
21:24
Speaker 1: you expect those people telling you that that serum is
21:27
Speaker 1: the best serum to actually be putting you in the
21:29
Speaker 1: best possible position. And it's not the case because they
21:32
Speaker 1: are assuming that you will do your own research when
21:35
Speaker 1: we haven't been brought up that way, if that makes sense,
21:38
Speaker 1: And that's.
21:38
Speaker 4: Really scary it is. And when you are you sign
21:42
Speaker 4: the dotted line and you give yourself to security number
21:45
Speaker 4: and you become a boss babe. You are told to
21:49
Speaker 4: be the expert. You're told to act like the expert.
21:51
Speaker 4: Take it till you make it, you know, use whatever
21:54
Speaker 4: company materials you have to sell whatever. Like I was
21:58
Speaker 4: the skincare expert, I wasn't a scared care expert. Like
22:00
Speaker 4: I knew a lot about the products we had. I
22:03
Speaker 4: could give you talking points from the products we had.
22:06
Speaker 4: I was not a dermatologist, I wasn't an esthetician, and
22:09
Speaker 4: so you can only do so much damage, I guess
22:11
Speaker 4: with skincare, hair care. But when you're talking about products
22:14
Speaker 4: like there's this Amari company. I don't know if you
22:17
Speaker 4: guys have that in Australia yet, but it's a mental
22:19
Speaker 4: wellness company where they're you know, telling people, you know,
22:23
Speaker 4: use this in place of your antidepressants. And when you're
22:27
Speaker 4: getting to this place where okay, this person selling themselves
22:29
Speaker 4: as an expert without credentials, I mean, yeah, it gets
22:33
Speaker 4: really scary. And I was going to say too with
22:36
Speaker 4: the infiltrating Australia with this business model that is done
22:41
Speaker 4: so on purpose, like it is so intentional. They start
22:45
Speaker 4: in the US and then they say, oh gosh, yay,
22:48
Speaker 4: we're doing so well, We're going to go to Canada.
22:51
Speaker 4: It's not that they're doing well, it is that it's
22:54
Speaker 4: become so saturated and the people at the bottom are
22:58
Speaker 4: getting you know, consistently earned and crushed, and there's fewer
23:02
Speaker 4: people now to buy in. So they go to Canada
23:05
Speaker 4: and then yay, we're doing so well. Now we're going
23:07
Speaker 4: to go to Australia. I mean it's like with every company.
23:10
Speaker 4: You will see this, sometimes Japan and then you know Japan,
23:14
Speaker 4: they don't do so well there, so they leave. Sometimes
23:16
Speaker 4: they don't do so well in Australia they leave. So
23:18
Speaker 4: it's this constant expansion and people think, Wow, a company's growing,
23:22
Speaker 4: they must be doing well. That's what we think is
23:24
Speaker 4: non experts, right, But the reality is you're just running
23:27
Speaker 4: out of people a scam in one country and you've
23:30
Speaker 4: got to go to another one.
23:31
Speaker 1: So that's terrifying. And I mean I trust literally what
23:35
Speaker 1: you're saying because you made it to a level that
23:38
Speaker 1: many aspire to but rarely achieve, right wild And you
23:42
Speaker 1: talk in your book about the perfect storm of circumstances
23:46
Speaker 1: and qualities that made you so successful in a system
23:48
Speaker 1: that was designed, honestly for most people to fail in.
23:52
Speaker 1: So I want to know how did you become so
23:55
Speaker 1: successful in the pyramid scheme?
23:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really was just lightning striking at the right time.
24:03
Speaker 4: I happened to join this company that wasn't you know,
24:07
Speaker 4: really well known in the area I was living. I
24:09
Speaker 4: was in Seattle, Washington at the time, and so I
24:13
Speaker 4: was kind of the first to bring it to that market.
24:16
Speaker 4: And I had a lot of friends because I had
24:19
Speaker 4: a lot of kids. Right, all those kids have friends,
24:22
Speaker 4: they have parents, Like I was in so many social circles.
24:25
Speaker 4: I was very social and most of the people I
24:28
Speaker 4: knew were kind of the same circumstances as me. Where
24:31
Speaker 4: you know, we had money to buy things. It's not
24:34
Speaker 4: like we were, you know, swimming in cash or anything.
24:36
Speaker 4: But if I wanted something, if I wanted to try
24:39
Speaker 4: a haircare product, I could. My friend was selling jewelry,
24:41
Speaker 4: I could buy it. Right, I had these people all
24:44
Speaker 4: around me. And with that, people are like, oh, hey,
24:48
Speaker 4: I'm bored too, or you know, I can't get a
24:50
Speaker 4: job either because I also have kids, and I also
24:53
Speaker 4: am in the same circumstances that you were in, and
24:56
Speaker 4: so heck, I'll join too. So I very quickly assembled
25:01
Speaker 4: this team of people who joined with me, who then
25:05
Speaker 4: got their own teams of people to join with them,
25:06
Speaker 4: And so it really was the pyramid got assembled very quickly.
25:11
Speaker 4: And again the products were an inn like. People liked them,
25:15
Speaker 4: they were cool, whatever, But the products were just away
25:18
Speaker 4: in to build the.
25:20
Speaker 1: Team into the system, into the game. It's insane how
25:24
Speaker 1: that works because obviously you had the perfect storm. But
25:28
Speaker 1: then on the flip side you talk about Hannah and
25:31
Speaker 1: why she was actually never going to succeed in a
25:34
Speaker 1: multi level marketing structure. Can you tell me a little
25:37
Speaker 1: bit more about why the Hannahs of the world will
25:40
Speaker 1: always fail in an MLM structure.
25:42
Speaker 4: Yes, So someone who comes in, you know, say a
25:46
Speaker 4: couple of years after a company has really taken over
25:50
Speaker 4: an area. And this is when people tend to come
25:53
Speaker 4: in because they see it a lot on their social
25:55
Speaker 4: media feeds. They're like, Wow, so and so is getting
25:57
Speaker 4: a paycheck, and so one saw was getting a paycheck,
25:58
Speaker 4: and gosh, they look they're having so much fun. I'll
26:01
Speaker 4: host a party, you know, you come over, I'll bring
26:04
Speaker 4: my friends. They join right. Well, at that point, again,
26:08
Speaker 4: the area has become so saturated, and maybe that person
26:11
Speaker 4: who joined had to wait a while to join because
26:14
Speaker 4: they had to save up the money. You know, they
26:16
Speaker 4: don't necessarily have the network of people who have extra money.
26:20
Speaker 4: They don't have a ton of relatives, and so if
26:22
Speaker 4: you have any of those things stacked against you, which
26:24
Speaker 4: most people have one or two. Like most people, they
26:27
Speaker 4: either had don't have a huge network, or maybe they
26:30
Speaker 4: don't have a ton of extra money laying around or
26:32
Speaker 4: they you know, whatever, they don't they can't use the
26:35
Speaker 4: products that are being sold. There's lots of reasons why
26:38
Speaker 4: someone wouldn't be successful at this, but the biggest thing
26:40
Speaker 4: is the saturated market. And so it really just takes
26:44
Speaker 4: a couple of levels. In fact, when I joined, nobody
26:48
Speaker 4: who joined after me ever achieved near the level of
26:52
Speaker 4: success that I did. And I always use air quotes
26:54
Speaker 4: because you know, the success came at, you know, the
26:58
Speaker 4: victimization of other people. You know, my upline brought me
27:01
Speaker 4: in thinking she was helping me. I brought people and
27:04
Speaker 4: thinking I was helping them until I realized, oh, I
27:07
Speaker 4: am making money because they're all paying monthly for their website,
27:12
Speaker 4: for their products, for these conventions, for all of these things,
27:16
Speaker 4: these trainings, these things that I'm making them go to,
27:18
Speaker 4: and the new product that comes out and they have
27:20
Speaker 4: to buy it, well, all that is going up to
27:22
Speaker 4: me and booying me, and they're treading water. And you know,
27:28
Speaker 4: that was the point where I was like okay, and
27:31
Speaker 4: you know, there was some guilt and like trying to
27:33
Speaker 4: help other people. And it really was the realization that, oh,
27:38
Speaker 4: this is designed so that a few people make money
27:41
Speaker 4: off the many of people who are not.
27:43
Speaker 1: And that must be a really hard realization to come
27:45
Speaker 1: to because you are earning really good money and I'm
27:48
Speaker 1: seeing it a lot here where the top dogs, you
27:52
Speaker 1: could say, are going No, absolutely not stop saying I'm
27:56
Speaker 1: victimizing women. I absolutely am not doing that. I'm giving
27:59
Speaker 1: them this opportunity and if they can't make the most
28:01
Speaker 1: of it, that's on them, not on me. At what
28:04
Speaker 1: point do you stop drinking that kool aid and flip
28:07
Speaker 1: to hold on. I actually feel a little bit uncomfortable
28:10
Speaker 1: with this, and is that I don't know, I feel
28:12
Speaker 1: like that would be a jarring realization for you to
28:15
Speaker 1: have gone through, to go hold on, hold on, hold on.
28:18
Speaker 1: I've led all of these people down the garden path,
28:20
Speaker 1: and now I'm realizing that this garden path is actually
28:22
Speaker 1: fraught with danger. Yeah, what did that feel like?
28:25
Speaker 4: And that was also by design because you know, you're
28:28
Speaker 4: never told, like you would be in a traditional business
28:31
Speaker 4: to do a profit loss statement or keep track of expenses.
28:35
Speaker 4: You know, you're never told to do that. It's just
28:37
Speaker 4: like buy your products, sign people up, bloody dah, and
28:40
Speaker 4: the rest is like just you know, shove it out
28:42
Speaker 4: of the rug, don't talk about it. You know, look
28:44
Speaker 4: at the income disclosure if you want any financial information.
28:48
Speaker 4: So you're kind of in this place where by the
28:50
Speaker 4: time you are able to figure that out, you're in
28:54
Speaker 4: so deep. You've recruited so many people into this system.
28:58
Speaker 4: So it really was a matter of me. My rise
29:01
Speaker 4: in the MLM really followed my journey with alcohol, and
29:06
Speaker 4: you know, I got sober, and you know, the beer
29:09
Speaker 4: goggles came off, and I realized, you know, the lot
29:12
Speaker 4: of the tactics I was using I wasn't comfortable using anymore.
29:16
Speaker 4: I realized, like, oh, I really saw it for what
29:19
Speaker 4: it was. I saw that the people who I had
29:21
Speaker 4: been telling, well, you're not successful because you're not doing X,
29:25
Speaker 4: Y and Z, they were doing those things. And I
29:28
Speaker 4: always assumed, you know, I did what my upline told me,
29:31
Speaker 4: and it worked. If I tell people to do what
29:34
Speaker 4: I'm doing, it'll work for them too. And it wasn't.
29:36
Speaker 4: It wasn't until I actually you know, stopped gaslighting people right,
29:40
Speaker 4: looked at what they were actually doing, had them do
29:43
Speaker 4: like their own profit loss statements, so that they could
29:46
Speaker 4: see the riding on the wall. It kind of took that.
29:49
Speaker 4: You know, I could say to someone like, Okay, so
29:51
Speaker 4: this is how much money I'm making, and that's whatever.
29:55
Speaker 4: But to someone when you tell them like, okay, you're
29:57
Speaker 4: spending this much time and this much money and this
30:00
Speaker 4: how much you're really taking home? Oh, then the work
30:03
Speaker 4: they're doing is not They're not going to keep grinding, right.
30:06
Speaker 4: So it was at that point when I really tried
30:09
Speaker 4: to help people see that they kind of needed to
30:13
Speaker 4: leave before I was ready to leave. You know. It's
30:16
Speaker 4: like I had to slowly dismantle what I had built,
30:20
Speaker 4: if that makes sense. Yeah, it's a hard realization. And
30:24
Speaker 4: like those women you're saying who are like, no, I'm
30:26
Speaker 4: not manipulating people, they might not actually realize it yet
30:30
Speaker 4: because they've never been told.
30:31
Speaker 1: No, and that's what hurts.
30:33
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it is. It's hard.
30:35
Speaker 1: It's a really challenging realization. And I mean, you're soul
30:38
Speaker 1: the dream, right. I mean when it comes to the
30:41
Speaker 1: lure of joining a multi level marketing business, a really
30:45
Speaker 1: big one for women in particular is this freedom push.
30:49
Speaker 1: So they're always talking about have freedom, like you know,
30:52
Speaker 1: you'll have the freedom to do whatever you want. You
30:54
Speaker 1: can work from wherever you want. Look, I am in
30:55
Speaker 1: Mexico and I am at work, and it just it
30:59
Speaker 1: blows my mind. So how did this so called freedom
31:02
Speaker 1: manifesting your day to day life as a really successful
31:05
Speaker 1: multi level marketing play.
31:06
Speaker 4: There is nothing less free than being required to work
31:12
Speaker 4: from the hospital, or being required to work at month
31:17
Speaker 4: end every month, and being required to go on these trips.
31:21
Speaker 4: Like that's not freedom. Like I want to go on
31:23
Speaker 4: a vacation and put my phone away, not sit with
31:26
Speaker 4: my face in it and text it. That's what you
31:28
Speaker 4: see on social media, right, I can work from it anywhere.
31:31
Speaker 4: Why do you want to work from anywhere? Like why
31:33
Speaker 4: is no one questioning this? Yes, it's true, Right, I
31:36
Speaker 4: sold some lips heerum while I was in the hospital
31:39
Speaker 4: having a baby. Why are you doing that? Like nobody's
31:43
Speaker 4: questioning this. So the idea of freedom being able to
31:47
Speaker 4: work more places is what's so screwed up? Like what
31:51
Speaker 4: is freedom to use that freedom?
31:52
Speaker 2: No?
31:53
Speaker 4: I mean, there is nothing less free than being glued
31:56
Speaker 4: to your phone all day. I can't tell you that.
31:59
Speaker 4: When I find decided to step away and not go
32:01
Speaker 4: to the conventions, anymore and not send DMS anymore and
32:04
Speaker 4: do all of that stuff like that was true freedom.
32:08
Speaker 4: And that's when I could not wait to cut the
32:10
Speaker 4: cord and be done with it. I was in a
32:12
Speaker 4: prison of my own making.
32:14
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yeah, And that's exactly from I think.
32:17
Speaker 1: I'm in a very privileged position looking in like I've
32:21
Speaker 1: got the education on my side, thankfully, but I'm also
32:24
Speaker 1: a business owner, and like you are saying all the
32:26
Speaker 1: stuff that I am thinking, I'm like, I don't want
32:29
Speaker 1: to work from anywhere. If I go on a holiday
32:31
Speaker 1: with my baby and my husband, I don't want to
32:33
Speaker 1: take my phone out of the room. I want to
32:35
Speaker 1: be present. What are you guys doing? What is this
32:38
Speaker 1: freedom thing you speak of? And I guess the other
32:42
Speaker 1: thing you've touched on before is about like doing a
32:44
Speaker 1: profit and loss and talking about you know, how much
32:47
Speaker 1: you're actually taking home and you know, tracking your expenses,
32:50
Speaker 1: which is they don't talk about that. They absolutely don't
32:52
Speaker 1: talk about it. You've described running the business as exhausting,
32:56
Speaker 1: and obviously it sounds it if you're selling serum while
32:59
Speaker 1: giving birth. Absolutely not. And there's I guess so much
33:05
Speaker 1: unpaid labor involved, which is something that makes me so
33:07
Speaker 1: angry because women are already doing so much unpaid labor.
33:11
Speaker 1: Can you talk, I guess a little bit more about
33:13
Speaker 1: these tasks and how much time you were spending on
33:15
Speaker 1: them that I guess you weren't being directly compensated for.
33:19
Speaker 1: And another question, did you ever work out your hourly wage?
33:23
Speaker 4: Yes? And by the time I did that, mine was okay.
33:29
Speaker 4: But I had like my team do that as well,
33:32
Speaker 4: and it was eye opening and we were not told
33:34
Speaker 4: to ever do that. And I'm sure that's why.
33:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's dismal.
33:38
Speaker 4: It was dismal. I mean, yes, you could make more
33:40
Speaker 4: money doing anything. The unpaid labor thing that it is
33:44
Speaker 4: really sad because just like the freedom thing we k
33:48
Speaker 4: you are at home, and I'll use me for an example,
33:52
Speaker 4: Like I was home with five kids. I was pretty
33:54
Speaker 4: much the sole caregiver. My husband traveled a lot. You know.
33:58
Speaker 4: I craved the so for me to have to get
34:04
Speaker 4: a babysitter, to have to pay for a babysitter, to
34:06
Speaker 4: go on a free trip that wasn't free, and to
34:09
Speaker 4: be on a beach looking at my phone, that sounds
34:12
Speaker 4: like freedom, right, So that even though in practice it
34:16
Speaker 4: ends up not being freedom, it felt like it. So
34:19
Speaker 4: you're giving these goals to strive for that end up
34:23
Speaker 4: not being very good goals. And you are used to
34:27
Speaker 4: doing so much unpaid labor, like our whole country and
34:30
Speaker 4: probably yours too, is held on the unpaid labor of women. Right,
34:34
Speaker 4: So when you're told, hey, you're already doing this, like
34:37
Speaker 4: you're already sitting at pick up with your kids, why
34:40
Speaker 4: not send a couple of texts and make some money? Again,
34:43
Speaker 4: it sounds good in practice until then it becomes something
34:46
Speaker 4: you have to do and you're not necessarily making money.
34:50
Speaker 4: You're not making money until you sell something or recruit someone, right,
34:53
Speaker 4: So the act of sending a text isn't making money.
34:57
Speaker 4: But again, it.
34:59
Speaker 1: Sounds nice yet sounds so kind. Yeah, oh, it drives
35:03
Speaker 1: me insane. And when you start to look at the
35:05
Speaker 1: monetary side of things, like obviously I love deep diving
35:09
Speaker 1: into it. And legally they have to share their income
35:13
Speaker 1: disclosure statements, so MLMs will put on their website the
35:16
Speaker 1: income disclosure statements and they'll often be relatively proud of
35:19
Speaker 1: these things because they use them as marketing tools as well.
35:23
Speaker 1: And I have been in the background doing some maths
35:26
Speaker 1: on a number of these MLMs and taking the information
35:30
Speaker 1: on their income disclosure statements versus every other statement I
35:33
Speaker 1: can find on their website, and they don't always add up.
35:35
Speaker 1: So do you think that these income disclosure statements are
35:39
Speaker 1: a fair depiction of I guess the state of affairs
35:42
Speaker 1: so to speak.
35:43
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely not. You know, they use a mean as
35:47
Speaker 4: opposed to a median, which they should use a median
35:49
Speaker 4: because you know, if you have a bunch of people
35:52
Speaker 4: who make two dollars and you have one person who
35:55
Speaker 4: makes five thousand dollars for some reason at that level, well,
35:59
Speaker 4: the average then it's going to be twenty five hundred dollars.
36:02
Speaker 4: I mean, we all know how averages work. But the
36:04
Speaker 4: median would be maybe five dollars. Yeah, that's a big difference.
36:10
Speaker 4: So it doesn't show what the majority of people make
36:14
Speaker 4: at each level. And even when you look at it,
36:16
Speaker 4: it's pretty abysmal. But when you look at like, okay,
36:20
Speaker 4: eighty percent of people make this much, and when you
36:23
Speaker 4: look at it and realize it's before expenses, like, it
36:26
Speaker 4: doesn't include expenses, it doesn't include taxes, it includes nothing,
36:32
Speaker 4: So you can basically cut that in half, maybe in
36:34
Speaker 4: half again, it's already abysmal, and it's much worse than that.
36:38
Speaker 4: So no, they're not accurate. It's much worse than it shows,
36:43
Speaker 4: and they tell you that's why they don't really reference
36:46
Speaker 4: it that often. It's like, oh, if you want more questions,
36:48
Speaker 4: just go check out the income disclosure. Well you might,
36:51
Speaker 4: and then sometimes it's super confusing. It's written strangely. You
36:55
Speaker 4: don't necessarily know the levels when you join, so you're like, oh,
36:58
Speaker 4: maybe I will be a level superior, princess or whatever
37:01
Speaker 4: the hell. The top one is maybe I will get
37:04
Speaker 4: to the point one percent, and then that income you're like, oh,
37:08
Speaker 4: that looks really good.
37:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, Premiere Penguin Pro. I love it.
37:12
Speaker 4: Yeah, but everyone else is making very little or the
37:16
Speaker 4: majority of people are actually losing money.
37:19
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I did the maths and I worked out
37:21
Speaker 1: that to you know how they say you don't have
37:23
Speaker 1: to buy in, but you definitely have to buy the
37:25
Speaker 1: product pack to otherwise you're not going to get commissions
37:28
Speaker 1: the product pack. Divide that by the amount that someone
37:31
Speaker 1: would make over a year. I did it in Australia,
37:34
Speaker 1: so our product pack averages for monet about three hundred
37:37
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars and the average monet salesperson's making nine
37:41
Speaker 1: dollars a month, so like immediately you are in the red,
37:44
Speaker 1: which is really really scary. I want to know a
37:47
Speaker 1: little bit more about the pressure to make sales, to
37:51
Speaker 1: reach each rank by the end of each month. So
37:55
Speaker 1: what I guess is the worst thing that you think
37:58
Speaker 1: you did to try and make or close a sale,
38:00
Speaker 1: because that's a little bit pervy.
38:02
Speaker 4: Oh god, the worst thing. Oh, I don't know what
38:05
Speaker 4: the worst thing is. I think the fake accounts. I
38:08
Speaker 4: don't know if they're the worst thing, but they're the
38:09
Speaker 4: most prolific. Like that's what everyone does, and you're taught
38:13
Speaker 4: to do.
38:14
Speaker 1: You're taught to make fake accounts.
38:16
Speaker 4: Make fake accounts. And whether that's your husband, you know,
38:20
Speaker 4: you use their number. You know, I had an account
38:23
Speaker 4: for a hamster.
38:24
Speaker 1: Oh good? Oh good? Did they enjoy their serrus?
38:28
Speaker 4: I loved them. And there's rules baked into like the
38:32
Speaker 4: policies and procedures that you can have certain amount per customer,
38:36
Speaker 4: right if they live in your house, because you know, theoretically,
38:40
Speaker 4: I could have a daughter who uses skincare too, right,
38:43
Speaker 4: and she I stuff through her account. Yeah, that makes sense.
38:46
Speaker 1: She might only be two, but that's perfect.
38:49
Speaker 4: Yeah. So the fake accounts, and it's really it's trained
38:52
Speaker 4: into you, and that's one of those things you look
38:54
Speaker 4: back on you're like, I can't believe I believed that,
38:57
Speaker 4: but then I did it, and then I taught it,
39:00
Speaker 4: and you see why. It just continues to expand, like
39:04
Speaker 4: down every level. You know, Gosh, if you've got to
39:06
Speaker 4: make this quota per month, you know, buy the new
39:09
Speaker 4: product under a fake account, and then that will booy
39:12
Speaker 4: your sales, and then you can use that product later
39:15
Speaker 4: for giveaways, basically buy more stuff than use it for
39:19
Speaker 4: bribes later. Like that's the long and short of it, right, Yeah,
39:23
Speaker 4: So the amount that you are spending for your own
39:27
Speaker 4: quote unquote business, it's astronomical.
39:30
Speaker 1: Which is insane. And I've called them up. I have
39:33
Speaker 1: literally called their head office to ask questions, and they
39:35
Speaker 1: are incredibly evasive. It is a lot of fun to
39:37
Speaker 1: call them as somebody who you know, it gets a
39:40
Speaker 1: little bit of a kick out of being like, hold on,
39:42
Speaker 1: but didn't you say x y Z just before? I
39:45
Speaker 1: want to know where that came from? Because when I
39:48
Speaker 1: ask them about these practices, they say, no, absolutely not.
39:51
Speaker 1: That is illegal. It's actually in our terms and conditions
39:53
Speaker 1: that you don't create that. Like, if we ever found
39:56
Speaker 1: out that somebody in our business was creating fake profiles,
39:59
Speaker 1: we would absolutely you know, crucify them. Absolutely not. So
40:04
Speaker 1: when they say one thing and then you guys are
40:06
Speaker 1: doing another. They know that you're doing it. I know
40:08
Speaker 1: that they know that you're doing it, but like, how
40:10
Speaker 1: are you quite getting away with it? And like who
40:13
Speaker 1: is teaching you this? Like it's clearly coming from the top,
40:16
Speaker 1: but then they're denying that it came from the top.
40:18
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean your upline trains you, and you train
40:21
Speaker 4: your downline and you know everyone does it. And the
40:24
Speaker 4: verbiage in the policies and procedures is, you know, it's
40:28
Speaker 4: loose enough, you know, like it'll say you can have
40:32
Speaker 4: unlimited number of accounts in your own home if people
40:36
Speaker 4: are using the product, Well, nobody is coming to your
40:38
Speaker 4: house to verify that anyone's using it, Like how do
40:42
Speaker 4: you So they make these rules that nobody can can
40:46
Speaker 4: really fact check, right, so you can have an unlimited
40:50
Speaker 4: number of accounts, purchase product underneath them, and then who's
40:54
Speaker 4: going to check it? So they do write these things
40:57
Speaker 4: in a way where they'll say, oh, no, that's illegal,
40:59
Speaker 4: We've never allow that, But in practice it happens all
41:03
Speaker 4: of the time, and they're not going to enforce anything
41:07
Speaker 4: that brings money into their bottom line. They are never
41:10
Speaker 4: going to get rid of accounts where product is being
41:14
Speaker 4: purchased that's flowing up to them, and so they encourage it.
41:18
Speaker 4: It's never frowned upon. I never had anyone ever anywhere
41:23
Speaker 4: in the company that I knew of, who got terminated
41:26
Speaker 4: or kicked out for making fake accounts. Ever, because if
41:29
Speaker 4: you on paper wanted to say, oh, yeah, that's my sister,
41:31
Speaker 4: that's my daughter who's going to come to your house.
41:33
Speaker 1: In fact check, yeah, it's not actually like a legal
41:36
Speaker 1: ramification for that, right, Like, it's just them saying don't
41:40
Speaker 1: do that and then turning a blind eye. All right, Tam,
41:43
Speaker 1: That's why we're going to leave it for today. I mean,
41:45
Speaker 1: we've covered so much ground already, haven't we, From the
41:48
Speaker 1: questionable business models to the financial pressures of maintaining a rank.
41:52
Speaker 1: MLMs are starting to sound less like opportunities. I'm all, like, well,
41:56
Speaker 1: expensive hobbies. But my friend, he's the understanding the numbers
42:01
Speaker 1: is just one part of the story. What's really wild
42:05
Speaker 1: is how these businesses keep people coming back despite the
42:08
Speaker 1: red flags waving inarguably neon signs. It's not just about
42:12
Speaker 1: the dollars. It's about the psychology, the manipulation and the
42:16
Speaker 1: promises of freedom and community that hook so many people
42:20
Speaker 1: in and keep them there. And that's exactly where we're
42:22
Speaker 1: going to pick up next time. We're diving into the
42:25
Speaker 1: psychological side of MLMs, how they pull you in, how
42:28
Speaker 1: they keep you there, and why leaving can feel so
42:31
Speaker 1: hard even when it's costing you more than it's worth.
42:34
Speaker 1: You're not going to want to miss this, so don't
42:37
Speaker 1: forget to follow and subscribe so you don't miss part two.
42:40
Speaker 1: My friends, it's going to be juicy. I'll see you soon.
42:49
Speaker 1: The advice shared on She's on the Money is general
42:52
Speaker 1: in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's
42:56
Speaker 1: on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should
42:59
Speaker 1: not be light upon to make an investment or financial decision.
43:03
Speaker 1: If you do choose to buy a financial product, read
43:05
Speaker 1: the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards
43:09
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