Latest / Sukany4: The Walk and Talk Podcast / S1E4 - Katy Murray - Kendal - Coaching Purpose-Driven Women & Non-binary Change Makers

Transcript

S1E4 - Katy Murray - Kendal - Coaching Purpose-Driven Women & Non-binary Change Makers · Sukany4: The Walk and Talk Podcast

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the podcast, the show where we explore the journeys of the inspiring individuals who have carved out their unique paths in life.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Zakania, and today I'm thrilled to take you on a walk through the charming market town of Kendall with someone who is not only a global selling author, but also a powerful advocate for change.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Joining me today is Katie Murray, the brilliant mind behind the book Changemakers, a woman's guide to stepping up without burning out.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: I first met Katie through our shared passion for anti-racist activism, both of us volunteering for anti-racist Cumbria.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: From there, I discovered so much more about Katie's incredible work as a coach, helping ambitious women leaders and change makers step into their power.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: I recently had the pleasure of attending Katie's CEO Supercharge Day here in Kendall.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was an eye-opening experience where Katie guided women business owners to step back from the daily grind, reconnect with their CEO mindset, and leave feeling fired up and focused.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Today, as we stroll through Kendall, I'll be chatting with Katie about her journey, her work, and what drives her to help women thrive without burning out.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, lace up your walking shoes and join us on this inspiring walk you won't want to miss.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Katie.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, let's walk.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Let's walk.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Kent River, not lake.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: The Lake of Kent.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's nice to do a city walk.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, downtown.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Urban.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Downtown Cumbria.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: So how's it going?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna stay committed to my sunglasses for as long as I can.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I need sunglasses.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's one of those days where it's not directly sunny, but I feel like I'm smiling a bit, so I'm impressed that you've got your sunglasses on.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: You could get sunburn actually in this weather, couldn't you?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would be wearing SPF this morning if I'd considered that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: I put um 50 plus face cream every day now.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like why don't moisturisers just include SPF as standard?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because the advice is basically to wear it every day, isn't it?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Even in our dull dull weather days.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: We've got our um supercharge day next week.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait for that, my love.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be awesome.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: I was um I was digging out my answers from last time.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what do you reveal?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: I've got it set up so I can refocus myself before Friday.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I thought the the exercises were great because it's not often we sit down and just think think through very specific things.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like my my whole life my job has been helping other people to have reflection time.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, when I think about that.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get one angle.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, space to yeah, step back, not be in the thick of stuff, working on something rather than in something.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I often think about that distinction.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So like seeing the bigger picture, yeah, getting some different perspectives, joining things up differently.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So when you say in something, what do you mean?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, like that retreat day that we're gonna have next week, rather than working in our business, like doing the stuff with our clients or whatever the day job is, we're taking a step back to think about the business as a whole and work on the business.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like what do we need to tweak or change up or what's going really well, and do we need to do more?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Those kinds of more reflective questions that help you see the bigger picture.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like we're not doing the kind of day job stuff, we're doing a bit more elevate, a bit of an elevation, like a step back and step up to see things a bit differently.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the value that adds, isn't it?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like you just I don't know, you feel like you've had a new perspective, and then that can give more energy, momentum, focus, clarity, all that good stuff.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but then helps with the doing the day job part.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it does, it's definitely set some priorities for me.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I like the softer side of it as well, in terms of reflecting on my characteristics and the things that I want to get better at and the key themes that came up through the questions.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, the mine was very much around consistency and focus and discipline, and it was really interesting because these are things that I practice every day, anyway.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: But it was really good that they came out because it sort of reinforced that I was on the right track.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's based on my belief that you know the answers, like your um inner wisdom knows what is best for you.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I really believe that, like, after now, I don't know, many years of being in the world.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I actually I actually really believe that that I don't need to tell anyone what to think about anything, like they they can so my job is to help people listen in and tune in to what the wisdom is saying, and sometimes to do some sense making together, like you can say, Oh, here are the themes and here's what I'm thinking.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I'm I don't know what's right for your business.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna tell you what to do.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some business coaches do do that, and I just think no, um that's a different thing, and those things are good, but that's not what I think up and do in those spaces.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we're gonna get road ahead here.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Let's maybe cross.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is this all also is it all part of the flood warning?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe there's some flood protection.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, flood protection another way.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sorry, you were saying.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so working on in what were we saying?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Working on yeah, we were saying what the some business coaches work on providing advice on the actual business.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, so just my belief there that you know what is there for you, and so so how do we connect with our body, how can I how do we connect with our own wisdom that's inside ourselves, and that is in our physical body.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's also in our kind of felt sense in the moment, it's in our sense of our spiritual lives, it's in our sense of our emotional life, like all of that complex of who you are all has data for you, doesn't it?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need to look outside of yourself for but it's knowing how to tap into it, yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's what I think you're really good at is giving us the tools to explore that.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just a bit of space to do that, isn't it, as well?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think as women, I don't know about you, I'm really interested in what you think of this.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think, and this is certainly true for me and most women that I work with now, we're kind of trained to look outside of ourselves, yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: For guidance, whether that's to our partner or at school, our teachers, we're not open to uni, like you know, things like virtual wisdom, gain knowledge, yeah.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not really taught how to be with ourselves and how to connect with our own bodies, how to connect with that data in our own body.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just I I feel like that's a whole new unlearning and relearning to do later in life.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, was it similar for you?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, was it similar for me?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think my observation is we seek a lot of validation, yeah, maybe so in in that quest for knowledge and learning, we're actually looking for someone to tell us what path to take and how to do it.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I and I think that's why I like what you do because you're kind of saying, This is your journey, this is your thing.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: The gift is within you to work it out and do what's right for you.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I and as you say that back to me, I also think about the value of being in collective, so being with others, like even having one other person there to witness that, to hold up the mirror, yeah, to hear you say something out loud, to hold space for you to say how you feel, yeah, you know, to be witnessed by somebody else, or to be together, whether that's you know, marching and protesting or sharing a sense of solidarity around something, that's so yes, it's about our own kind of personal journey and also about yeah, who else is around you, where's your cheerleading, yeah, not people telling you what to do, but people who believe in you and will genuinely support you.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, I think as women we're taught to um compete and compare, yeah, and not shine our own light.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah, there's all of that going on, and so I think there's something else about the spaces that I love to host and convene, which is like we can be big in this space, and I'm not threatened by that, and I'm not threatened by your brilliance, and let's all know, let's notice when we're when our comparison light is triggered, yes, and let's you know, again learn how to care for ourselves with that, and then be in a space where we can genuinely celebrate each other.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so are you are you sort of implying a bit of jealousy might rise up and you might have to catch that and think about that?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's really it's really common for me, and I think it's really common with a lot of women that I talk to, friends and and people that I work with, where it's like, yeah, you see something in somebody else, yeah, and we take it as a judgment in some way on ourselves that you're not doing enough or you should be doing this better.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: It taps into the toxic productivity in our culture, it taps into consumerism and capitalism like all those isms and archies that tell us we need to essentially be you know compliant and consuming.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, something else I was gonna say.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, it's fine.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've also sort of lost the thread, but I really wanted to pull which I really wanted to share.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it'll come back to me.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Say what you wanted to say.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was gonna say, whilst it's great, um, you know, whiteness let's come back to whiteness, yeah.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, having that space for a cheerleading team and people who support you.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think what I found with the groups is um you learn a lot as well because you'll hear someone's journey and you'll think, Oh, actually, that's quite a good thing for me to think about.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you you sort of take little gems like that and start incorporating those words and those practices, and that's really nice.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I and what I would say there is it certainly lots of groups I go to are not like this, and there's loads of value in them.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: The groups I run, I'm really big on.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna fix each other, and we're not gonna tell each other what to do.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not that you come into a group and people will all be the committee.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's it's just like I love what you said there.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, but you're gonna hear different experiences, different words, different ways of saying something, and that will ping lots of great ideas for you.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's that lovely synergy of other people, yeah.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not that they're the people that will then tell you how to live and be.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it is interesting as well when when you're in the group to see what gives people energy.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: So for me personally, as you know, I'm I'm quite private about what I do with my business or you know, if I'm busy, if I'm not busy, I don't really advertise either way.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just get on with it and deal with it, manage it, and that's not to say I'm not seeking support and because I do have support, but it's more that I it's just how I operate because I'm so insular in that way.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've not wanted, I've always been very keen to do it my way, yes, and I'm always very keen not to allow other influences in because if I do something based on someone else's input and it doesn't go the way I want it to, I want to be able to hold myself accountable.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I'm happy to source um information to help me make decisions, but I don't want to pin that decision on someone else.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're not giving your power away in that sense.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: I experience you as very high in personal agency, like I experience you as someone who is is decisive and is clear about what you want, and then is clear about where someone else, yeah, where someone else can support, but it's not yeah, I don't experience you kind of giving away power to me in how we relate and then seeing you relate to other people, which is interesting because some people really do, yeah, or or try to, like it's like you know, what do you think of the world?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or try and put so if someone else is successful, which is great, and that's you know, there's everyone's different in the way they cele celebrate their success, but sometimes you get people giving you unsolicited advice because of their success, yeah, and that's quite a difficult thing to um navigate without being offensive.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: How do you deal with that then?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, because you we so you know it's coming from a good place, don't you?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you know that it's not it's not kind of saying I know better than you, it's kind of saying I've done this and I've done it well and I've been successful.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's also the conversation with myself to say, well, there's nothing wrong with it.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that there's any harm in it, it's more that I think I would never do that.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so because I would never do that and assume that someone else is interested in my journey, I always find it really surprising when someone offers their journey to me because I'm like, oh yeah, uh-huh.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: But then that's the that's that person's way of celebrating their success, which is a way that I just don't do, so it's really interesting that I receive it in that way.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: That is interesting.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about all that?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I was gonna name whiteness for me in that, which was just what was pinging earlier, and I think and maybe this is another whole, it is obviously another whole tangent we could go down, um, in terms of quite a big, quite a big encompassing topic.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I noticed the like the way that as a white woman I learn as a girl to compete and compare, like that thing I just named.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really part of how all the archies and isms reproduce themselves.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: The what like all the all the like if you think about racism, oh the misogyny, the patriarchy, yeah, all the ways that systems kind of oppress us and oppress people, yeah, and the way they're all interconnected, yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And whiteness and white supremacy as you know, part of right to women's culture is part of that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like there's lots in there which is just conditioned in how we relate to each other as women, yeah, and maybe people of all genders, it's all that part of that conditioning.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like at this stage in my life I'm just in a massive, like stripping away, a big unlearning of all these things, right?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And noticing how much they show up, um and heightened awareness, I suppose.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now that you've once you see things you can't unsee them, absolutely, and then you feel compelled to have to challenge it.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: I feel compelled to have to challenge it once I've seen it.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: So if it comes up in conversation, I will say, I'm not sure you should use that language, or have you considered doing it a different way because actually this might be quite harmful to someone and sort of do it that way.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that's interesting.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, to that point, as a brown woman, I was raised to be compliant and um to not cause a stir, to not draw attention.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's where it comes from, this whole keeping things private, um, to kind of do what you're told.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and there's there's an element of people pleasing in there as well, a big element, yeah, which you then have to unlearn because actually it's quite harmful and quite toxic and can put you in harmful situations.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so in terms of the business world, it's a difficult space to navigate when your your personal brain is conflicting with your business brain, yeah, and you've got opposite messages coming through, and you have to decide if by doing one you're morally doing something wrong.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you unpick that?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like how do you very slowly be in that tension?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's taken a long time to understand that you know the certain things don't serve you well in certain environments, and actually it's okay to be not to be different versions of yourself, but it's okay to dial it down or dial it up, depending on where you are, because it's you're not gonna progress, yeah.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, you're just gonna you you have to accept that if if you've chosen a certain path and that requires you to be a certain way, or you're just gonna be walked all over, you have to make that choice.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't make that choice, you have to choose a different path.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, a lot of yeah, who we are determines what we achieve as well, doesn't it?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking about that in the context of what you said about speaking up and naming like when you see the systems at play that you name it, and I was thinking about how we gauge like our safety in that moment, and like you're saying, you're you're kind of gauging what's the impact on me if I do this or don't do this, or certain decisions or certain ways that you show up, yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, yeah, and I think sometimes um from my experience, when I have called it out, people just don't see it, yeah, and so they're they're using phrases because that's what they've always done, but actually it's not serving them well either because they're upholding a system that isn't supporting them, but they haven't really thought about that or thought about that you know, that formation of a sentence in terms of its detriment to you.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the one of the big one of my most favourite quotes, um oh, bless you.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that was very silent for me.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's the downside to walks and talks.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: I wish we were videoing it because that was so expertly done.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: The silence leaves um yeah, so one of my most favourite quotes that um I think Gandhi said and has later been quoted by many people and was recently on Dr.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Chatterjee's podcast, and as you know, he's one of my heroes.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um is you know your your let me get this right, your thoughts become your words, your words become your actions, your actions become your habits, and it goes on like that.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and basically whatever it starts in your mind.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: Should we cross or should we leap back?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think we'll turn back.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's a bit noisy on that side of the road.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, so it's it all starts and stops with us and how we choose to do things and how we frame that in our minds.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I 100% agree, and I'm also noticing how the contrast between what I said earlier about I trust that people know the wisdom that's inside them, and I don't need to tell them anything, yeah, with actually what I've just said and what you've just said, which I also agree with, which is I will also show people what I'm seeing, which may not be what they're seeing.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that idea of actually there are systems and ways that we're conditioned that we won't necessarily find.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, do I believe that?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we may not we may not you know find that by listening into our inner wisdom.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like actually, sometimes we need someone to tell us and show us, yeah, speak about it and show us that how that is impacting you or other people, or how your behaviour is impacting other people.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just noticing I'm like, oh, there's a contradiction potentially there, yeah, because actually I am also doing a lot of naming and saying this is what I'm seeing, but also saying I don't see it all because I have massive blind spots and bias in myself.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what are you seeing?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And please give me that feedback and training and like let's have that as a mutual conversation as well.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can't do it.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm noticing actually yes, there's that bit of who I am and my work, which is like non-directive and inviting you to find your wisdom, and then then there's that bit of me which is actually really directive, which is about it's a much more confrontational stance of and I hope I do it kindly and maybe quite even quite softly, but it's it's not a passive, the other place's position isn't passive either, but it's a much more out it's a much more tell kind of stance than an ask kind of stance, if that makes sense.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, just noticing that in our conversation, it's like, oh, there's kind of both and there.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And as I've got older and bolder, oh, I like that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be Um I would say uh to to what you've just talked about, about when you do speak up and speak out about things and you're gauging the extent to which you want to or can do that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I I know as I've got older that I can take more risks with that, that actually I'm not at I'm not actually at risk in perhaps in situations in the past I thought I was.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: And again, there's there's some of my privilege there, which is like I actually can I I'm very, very rarely unsafe and maybe uncomfortable, but that's not the same thing.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so as I've got older, I've gotten much more comfortable with that, and I want to keep getting more comfortable with that, and that feels good.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh that's good.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good um sort of place in your journey to have arrived at so far.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's always ongoing, isn't it?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it does that actually does feel like I feel like I care a lot less about a lot of things, yeah.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then I care a lot more about a few things.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, again at this stage of life it's like a lot of stuff I don't care about anymore.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: What other people think about me is quite lower on the priority list.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's exhausting because it doesn't serve us well at all, I don't think.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Which connects to business, the business chat we're having, because I think there's also a brand there.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's like how do people what do people know you for?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: What do you speak about?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do you come across?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: What do they know that you care about?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess in the past, and probably still too, there's lots of things I would keep quite hidden in social media spaces or in more public spaces.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas now I feel in the last couple of years, like actually I'm gonna speak about the things that I care about, and it does have an impact.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: There is a ripple effect, probably positively and negatively from that.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I don't care, it's like well, it's fine, I can live with that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's not something I need to be.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just wait for the yeah, sure.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can even go up here if you want and then yeah, okay.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so how did you get into this work?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's quite niche, isn't it?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's not your mainstream kind of career choice.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Weird niche person.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: No, not at all.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's fascinating because it's so impactful.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I always had group work as part of my job, like from really early doors jobs.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I always had like, here's a group session on something.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Can you go and be part of it?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or can you hold the foot charts?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or can like I just was always involved in group facilitation and I just kind of learnt being in the room with people and what to do and how to do it from watching loads of other people doing it and helping out like really early in my like late teens onwards.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's always been there, and then so I think that's where the sort of coaching and like supporting groups comes from.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I got a chance to do lots of that really early on and really enjoyed it, and yeah, and then just it just sort of built up there in terms of it then becoming my actual business.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And what was it about the group work that really energized you?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I'm not sure I can answer that for when I was a lot younger, but I'll just share a story from two weeks ago, which is I had a month of obviously lots was gone online, and lots I still do online and also in person, so it's good.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: I had a month, a full month of everything being online, and it was great, it was a really full month with loads of fun clients, it was all good, all good things.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: But by the end of those four weeks of annual, I was like, I have to see some actual people in a room, and then the next again week I was with a group in a room, yeah, and I was like the most like the facilitator with the most energy power, like, come in, my little one! People here we are, it's people here's the flip jobs, here's the cartoons, here's the creative things, here's all the colours.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I could see they were like, Oh my gosh, here's personals are so intense, and at the end of the day, I was like, Stay, let's go with coffee, let's stay in touch.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Back on.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I that gave me a lot of data.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, I really love the being, you know, being in the room and making that, you know, letting the magic happen in that space.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, yeah, just doing the cartoons on the flip chops.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, I need some I need some in-person time.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So there was there is something definitely really energizing for me about that that process.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can see it in your face, your whole face just a little.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was just laughing at myself too because it's like, oh, this is so obvious, um and online is brilliant because I can be at home and I can see my family, and you know, May was beautiful in the late district, you know, it's basically summer, isn't it?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas like go and swim and play and do all the fun things, and I wasn't travelling, it was great to be home.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it's just a balance because I was like, I need to see actual people who are not just through a screen.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's really interesting because a lot of my work is now 100% remote.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and all my online and it's fine.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think I really embrace my introverted side, and I am quite introverted a lot of the time.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: As much as I am extroverted as well, and I think it's taken me a long time to embrace both sides of me.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm way more introverted than I thought I was.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like and COVID definitely taught me that, and actually for all my family, like we all just adjusted much more to our own space, and as we all maybe did in some way, different ways, but yeah, yeah.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it is the balance because some weeks when I'm doing back-to-back groups and travelling loads, I it you know, I am exhausted.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there's too much outward energy.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I need some of that inward replenishing time.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you're absolutely right, it's that mix, isn't it?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Of yeah, I I sort of call it my lockdown weekends now because I know that I need to not see people and actually I really enjoyed it.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I've got so many things I'm interested in.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: I like to just focus in on those things.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: We could go round that way.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay, move back onto the path, yeah.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so so you were saying about your path then, so you did the group work, and so did you get qualifications?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Did you do like a specific degree?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I later on did coaching qualifications and a masters and you know that sort of stuff.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which covered so I did training in organizational development, which is like leadership development and change and organizational psychology and all of that stuff, so like group dynamics, and I yeah, just really loved all of that, and then it was in the context of working with social justice organizations, so it was like how does that then play out with a global organization?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening at different team levels and different leadership levels, and yeah, that was all good fun, and then I set up my own business when I moved up here to the Lake District.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um exciting, scary.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, just had I just had a little baby, so I just had my second baby, so I was kind of in that really bizarre zone of not really knowing what my name was or what the time of day was, and it was all a bit vague.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So moving as part of that was like, yeah, we'll move house, yeah, we'll move vacation, yeah.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give up my job, yeah.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, start something completely new, and then I just built it up really gradually as the kids, you know, as they in a sense could do a little bit more away from me, I was doing a bit more away from them, and yeah, you know, that would just built up really slowly and steadily while they got bigger.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the rest was history, maybe.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you've published your book?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that was 2022.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was commissioned.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I was commissioned the year.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, like COVID time is really collapsible, isn't it?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know what happened to time and space over this year.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I was commissioned like I had six months to write it basically.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was in like and how did that April 21, maybe, and then I had to hand it in in November, and then it gets you know created and panelated and designed and blah de blah.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's released a year later.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: Did someone approach you?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so everyone has different journeys, yeah.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of different, different loads of which you don't people don't talk about today, so how does that work?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I've talked to loads of people who've published, and it's so so varied how it works.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um I did during COVID, during lockdown, I did a proposal challenge, which is like it was like a week to um every day you have these little prompts to um create a book proposal, which I just thought I would do when in lockdown when there was a bit of space.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a brilliant process because you had to just do all the thinking to kind of get your ideas together and put yeah, put this whole thing together.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it meant that at the end of the two weeks or whatever it was, you kind of had this document as a starter.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then lots well, then summer of 2020 happened and everything, you know, lots of other things kicked off, so I sort of parked that.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then I got an email a bit later in the year or in a year's time, or whenever it again, time and space, who knows when, yeah, from a commissioning editor going, Do you have any ideas?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, actually.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I actually do.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's my idea.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: So then she and I worked together really closely on writing that as a proposal for her publishing house.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um, the way it works is they you know they have an internal system where they have to pitch their ideas, and then if they get commissioned, then they can commission the authors.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that that was going on for a couple of months back and forth.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's how that's how it worked for me.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then it meant I had a really clear structure for writing it, so there was a very clear deadline and a very clear timetable, which helped because then you just had to crack on and do it rather than I think if I had years and years and years to do it, I wouldn't.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it worked for me to have a really tight kind of focus on, yeah.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, massive creative project.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'd never done anything as big as that in terms of just one thing, one big thing you're working on, you just have to take tiny little bites out of it over lots and lots of days.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so yeah, lots of learning.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um discipline, doesn't it?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: To get yourself to sit down and do do the writing part, well, the structure part, then the writing part, then the cleansing part.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the editing was hard.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I remember my in my memory, I remember enjoying the writing, and lots of it was hard, but I do also remember sitting in cafes and having a few hours at a time, or sitting outside and having a few hours at a time, or I went to a few different places, yeah, like physically going out swaying on my desk.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100% helps.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting, because when I do things, I have to everything has to be the same.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, nothing changes, okay.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Same soundtrack, same routine, same thing.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because that will be clicking into your brain to say, here's the same for focus where exactly.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that whole routine builds me up into sitting at my desk.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, I totally get it.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I get that.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I and I and I think I think I did use that a lot actually, that process of just here I am, it's time to get you know, your brain going, okay, yeah, go.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then if I was hitting walls or slumps, it was as hard.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, breaking the environment really helps me.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, like going for a walk or having a chat with something like you, or going to sit in a cafe, or just going to a library, or going to sit outside, or somewhere else, just freeze up somehow some creative juices.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that I use, I think I probably use both of those sort of approaches to I think I've got better as I've got older to not punish myself.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I used to force myself to sit in that space because that's what other people could do.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's true.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now I've sort of understood that I'm not other people, yeah, and I don't work like that.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, if I need to watch a movie for an hour, yeah, then that's what I need to do.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or go to the gym or go make a salad or go run up the stairs or always food, Katie.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Always I I can't believe I just said make a salad because I'm like, I never ever go make a salad.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who goes and makes a salad?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I love a delicious snack, like make some amazing skinny sandwich or something.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was a good choice.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: It kind of portrays us as quite virtuous and health conscious.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sticking with the maker salad.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: I said that out.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, live live confession.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm never making a salad when I need a little boost.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: I love you said that as well.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: We're selling the ideology right now, absolutely, mate.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's do it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's out there.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, once I once I break it, once I break that thought pattern and I get back to it, I just smash it and it's a lot of flow, isn't it?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And accessing that lovely sort of headspace of focus and absorption, and it feels so good, doesn't it, when you just get there.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I get there every day, but it is a lovely place to get to.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: So so one of the things you talk about or talked about at your CEO recharge day um was about being in seasons.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um so do you want to explain that a bit?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so this I mean lots of people have written about this and thought about this over, I'm sure, millennia.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really just me catching up with all this beautiful wisdom of the ancients.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this idea really, and in our modern culture, it's so counter-cultural that we can live more cyclically or seasonally rather than being always on and always expected to be in that kind of productive, fruitful, doing mode, which are our I think our culture is very much kind of driven by that kind of consumerist ideology, and it is sort of toxic productivity, which is like go, go, go, go, go.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea of rest is so such an anomaly to us, isn't it?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so hard to I don't I have a friend, and again, lots of people are writing about this now.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: A friend who challenged me the other day, like, what does it mean to be a well-rested woman?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what does a well-rested woman look like?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it really challenged me.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I don't really know anyone.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, like I I could name a few people who I think are really good at balancing to to go that way.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, anyway, so that's you know part of our cultural what we're living in.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um so the idea of seasons is just how can we connect with, yeah, how can we connect with literally the seasons that are in nature around us, um, but also aware that our cycles, our body cycles, our monthly cycles as women, and also our kind of project cycles may be really different to what the season is at in the weather, if you like.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but how so how do we layer that?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, in my menstrual cycle, I am currently in winter, so I'm on my bleed, so that's like slower.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: I probably need to be on the sofa, I definitely need to not be driving heavy machinery, like spatial is really reduced, it's not great anyway, but it's really yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I just sorry, go ahead.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say it's really good that you're pulling that out because a lot of people don't understand how connected it all is.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's all connected.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it does affect how you are productive and there are some impossible standards put upon women.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so in my winter I find I actually can do really good, absorbed, I can do flow, I can go to that really absorbed place and I can be quite creative, but it's very inward, the energy's really inward.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: So ideally I don't want to be doing the hi slip charts room, you know, that's summer.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's really summer on energy that I described before.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I probably what it probably was two weeks ago when I was traveling, so it's like, yay, summer, here we go.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that there's the monthly cycle, yeah.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'll come out of winter in a couple of days, and it will be spring, and spring is about ideation and newness and freshness, and there is that have spring in your step the new energy, yeah, of like, oh, okay, a bit more physical, but also kind of mental clarity, even as well.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, summer is that kind of outward on on energy, and then autumn is kind of delivery completion, crossing the T's dot and the I's finishing off stuff, detail before we go back into winter.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: And our culture wants us to be in kind of you know, ideation into delivery mode, yeah, doesn't really give us a lot of time or honouring really of those different spaces and what the gifts I talk about, the gifts of each season.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if I don't honour the winter, which is about rest and refreshment and evaluation and tapping into deeper wisdom and letting go, maybe some death, maybe some you know releasing, some grief, some laments before we then go into right off we go again.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't honour that part of my process, even if it's five minutes in an hour or a day a month or whatever it might be time-wise, what do we miss if we're not giving attention to that and honouring that?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's really interesting because as you're saying that, I'm sort of reflecting on my my sort of um cycles, if you like, in terms of my professional work, yeah, and I feel like I have naturally been following a cycle without realizing it.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: And um when I come to the end of a project, I do take some downtime and I do kind of slow down.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: And don't yeah, because it is very intensive, and I do step back from everything and go into recluse mode and think about what I didn't enjoy and think about how I might do something different going forward, and then when I'm ready, I kind of step back out again and and go forward.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I didn't consciously know that I was doing it, I was doing it because I felt it it felt like I needed to do it.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: But that's and that's going back to what we said right at the beginning of our chat, isn't it, about tapping into that energy in our body and wisdom.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like when we actually can connect with that, it sounds like you you're doing really well.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not a judgment about how well we do it, but it's like, oh, actually, I'm really feeling the need to slow down and rest and recover.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: That that's that is built in, right?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's built into nature.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: If we look around, we're we're recording this in summer, it's beautiful, kind of full gloom, everything's out, but we know living within that autumn and winter and spring look really different, right?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's just such a different energy of each of those seasons, and we are all we're all connected, we're all part of this that whole ecosystem, aren't we?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: So and do you think do you think it's more apparent to people who not necessarily unnaturally tuned into themselves, but who have got that mental space and quietness to be able to tap into that and recognise those cycles?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because I feel like there are so many people juggling so many things under so much pressure, yeah, that you might not even understand everything or feel like one big thing.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's just a huge overwhelm, huge big pot.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you need even a little window to start to reflect, to start to see the patterns, to start to feel and connect with your body, your energy, and you know that just takes a little bit of wriggle room, a little bit of window, doesn't it?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: To even have the conversation about it.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, to bring it to your consciousness, yeah, absolutely.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I know for me in times when I've been super overwhelmed, overstretched, too much going.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but when the kids were younger and I was working, I was travelling a lot, different periods of my career, I was away a lot.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, me and my partner was single parenting, yeah, money was really stretched, like just a lot of things were really under pressure.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: That actually, if someone said to me, Oh Katie, just take a little bit more time for winter, like I'm like, you know, you just that doesn't feel so compassionate.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think I'm aware at this stage in my life when the kids are bigger, and there's just a lot that's different in the different stages.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I I also want to say I do think there's massive value to the seasonal awareness, however, kind of busy in bunny is or kind of overwhelmed your feeling, and a lot of the coaching work I do one-to-one is supporting women to just find some kind of different balance in rhythm.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: I feel I feel like I could probably step back and look at the last four decades of my life in a season.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: And attribute each decade to a season.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's actually like the stage of life thing.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, Juan, do you want to say more about that?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I just feel like this like now I'm 45, yeah, which I'm very happy about because I was like I've made it halfway to 90.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Quite excited about that.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: But this 40s is definitely my summer.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I don't know if this will resonate with a lot of people, but I think that my twenties was, you know, I suffered I I experienced, not suffered, I experienced a very um devastating grief, which actually shaped the next two decades or will shape the rest of me.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um but in a good way I think.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously the loss was devastating, but I think it it woke me up and made me make choices that I don't regret at all.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've lived a very, very happy, fulfilling life and um been very clear about my self-worth.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you know, I feel very lucky that I had that so early on.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whereas I know some people go through that journey now and it's it's frightening and it's upsetting, and it's you know, you kind of the worst thing I think you can have going forward is regret because that's the one thing you can't do anything about.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I'm such a big advocate of don't worry about being embarrassed.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel something, say it.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: Say it and make people know that they are worthwhile in your life, that you celebrate them, that you love them.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: Don't be embarrassed.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: If they if they push back, that's on them, but you've done your bit and you've lived authentically.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because you might not be here tomorrow, so don't waste your time.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it and it's joyful, it's it's empowering, I find it um liberating to do that.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you do get some weird kind of oh my god, what is she doing?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, you're great, someone needs to tell you you're great, and what's wrong with that?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much in what you said.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: I l I mean I love first of all, just love that whole you know, like the idea of like in a funeral in British culture we tell people how much love.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just devastating.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: So let's when we feel something towards somebody, when we notice how brilliant they are, let's just sell it.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: So much about that.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love what you're saying about the seasons of your life, and then you can see like I always say all models are wrong, some are useful.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: So this is like you know, this season thing is not going to be everything to explain everything, but it's one layer, isn't it, of like, oh yeah, there's different stages of my life where this energy was more prevalent and it was allowing me to move and grow in this way.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I also think that within those seasons, so you can see, oh, that was kind of my spring, or that was a devastating winter, and then I was coming out of that, and here I am in summer, um, which is really beautiful.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that story.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you and that within that as well, you will have like mini little cycles.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, you'll like you said, your project cycles, your work cycles are monthly cycles, they will also kind of be circling within this kind of overall sense of where I am and those sort of stuff.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it is, I think it's just a way, isn't it, of thinking and seeing, connecting these different things up together.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: I also wanted to share that I think the the impact of grief and kind of wake when you said it woke me up.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so my mum died really young for her and for me, and I'm aware of that.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, really obviously there's usually for a big impact of an event like that, yeah.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, and that of course shapes so much of then what comes.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I also think there's something around when anybody in life, and we are all are going to experience grief, aren't we, at different stages?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, when we go through something quite big and transformational, depending on when it is in your life, it does kind of wake you up, it kind of grows you up as maybe not the right thing, but it just opens up a lot of so so.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really resonating with what you're saying there about the assumption that we all will just live forever versus actually facing your own mortality and having those moments.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, wow, okay, life is so precious, so let me juice the joy out of each day.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that again for me with my upbringing was really countercultural because I we live in a very sort of next next thing legacy future oriented.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I've had to really learn about being really present and trying to be in the now that this is what we have, this moment, and um, yeah, something just yeah, that was resonating for me as you as you shared that.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think that whole legacy conversation's interesting because it's certainly for me, but and I get it, I understand that as um individuals we want to know that once we're not here anymore, someone will remember us for something that we've achieved or we've done or we've impacted, and I think a lot of people, you know, when they have children, that's their legacy, which is great, and you know, there's so much love that gets poured into those relationships.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: I just think sometimes I wonder if that blinds us to just being present and just embracing today because there's so much joy to be received from each day, and we maybe don't see it and we maybe go to bed frustrated and oh I haven't achieved that thing.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or I'm just um you know it's the kind of regrets of the past, the worries of the future is the classic one, isn't it?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where's your head?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where's your head actually going?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, versus what you're saying now, which is okay, in this moment right now, so like I can feel the breeze on my face, I can hear different noises, but I can also have this lovely there's a kind of fragrance on the air that I can connect to.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm really enjoying this conversation with you.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're kind of deep in it, we're in flow, yeah.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's really enjoyable, isn't it?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's really juicy, and yeah, so that that just the pleasure of all like the warmth of the bit of sun.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're trying to go through like it's just there's just so much to relish in this moment now, isn't it?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than I'm thinking about is my kid okay because some stuff happened today, or is yeah, you know, is that going on tonight or what's happened tomorrow, or we were talking about business stuff and like what's gonna be you know, all those other things that our brain can be so busy with.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and who's gonna remember me for what?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because I just uh another quote that I really like is and I can't remember who it's from, but it's it basically saying people won't remember you for what you did, but remember you for how you make them feel.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Who's it by?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to say now my Angeli, but maybe it's Kenya Morrison is one of those amazing women anyway.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and I I think that or bell hooks or lord you lord.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's all is one of them but yeah, I think that's really important because I think yeah, and and you have interactions sometimes and you walk away thinking, I don't know if that person really thought about their reaction in terms of actually I feel really crappy now, yeah, and I need to address that with this person.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: But have they put the thought into their behaviour and its impact negatively because there's always a better way to convey a message and to say something, and we're all guilty of sort of flying off the handle and and saying things in a less than ideal way, but it's how what that keeps that person feeling is and yourself feeling because after you've had your big explosive moment, you're gonna feel crappy as well.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like the kind of residue, isn't it, or the weight of that conversation?
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the butterfly effect of that.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very interesting.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: So um I'm going to do my homework for my CEO recharge today, and I am working through your book as well.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: Although I've not read it, I've not used it for a few months.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, probably six weeks now, but I kind of got into the habit of doing a chapter or half a chapter every morning.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of my routine.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I love the the format of it.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you've got the exercises and the reflection points, and I've got my little book that I'm writing down on my thing.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's one of these books I think you can go back to endlessly because you're gonna keep refreshing what you're thinking.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's designed to be very dip in and out, not necessarily read it from the back and then although I realise people read obviously people read books however they want to read them, as the author you're like, are you reading it the way I expect you to?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, let go of that.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's gonna read it however they want to read it.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's a podcast on how to read my book.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: No, I know what you mean, yeah.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I think like my style is very much to do the whole book and then mark out bits I want to go back to, especially for this sort of book.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well it's it's practical and tangible, and like you say, there'll be different things that maybe resonate differently depending on what's going on during the time and how you're doing at the time.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: I love to hear that.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for sharing that.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love hearing how people are using it, so that makes it nice.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that feels amazing.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: There's no pressure to read the whole thing because you know it's not going anywhere, and it's a toolkit, isn't it?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: Essentially, and it's well um well um needed, I think, certainly for me, because there's there's things in there that I think I would enact want to practice it more.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: The bit I'm not very good at is where you've got the exercises for meditating, and you sort of say read it through and then do it, and just because of my personality type, I'm like, oh I've lost interest.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh I'll move on.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: I assume they would be I I'm like you.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I even though I I'm in this, you know, I do the stuff, I find it really hard to just kind of do that on my own.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to have a voice to guide me or some kind of process because it just helps stay exactly a bit more on track.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I can send you the audio version.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's helpful.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a bit I feel like I'm cheating on.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, it's just a preference, isn't it?
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's yeah, different ways that we all engage and connect and learn and stuff.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: So what's um next, Katie?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: Are you holidaying?
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, summer downtime.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: Summer in like the calendar year is always winter in my business year.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: So just talking about the seasons that we've had.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: So um over the years I've always taken summer off to do childcare when the kids were small.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now they're bigger, they absolutely do not need me to be taking off to be with them.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: You really don't really hot.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: However, I'm like, I like this rhythm.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm still gonna have that that winter.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I I really use it as I come out of social media, I do complete digital detox, and I just kind of come back to myself in all of good ways, like play and rest and sex and fun and yeah, pleasure and people and connections and just all the fun, just fun summer stuff, beers by the whatever, no alcohol beer, not alcohol at the moment.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: So no alcohol beer in the sun.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, all the fun stuff is just a bit of focus, and yeah, what does it mean to rest actually?
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm kind of leaning into that bit.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: What does rest mean and look like and feel like?
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and what does what has it felt like in the past?
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, I think probably those things I've just said, so that those are probably quite high energy aspects of rest, whereas I think I don't know, I'm quite open to what what this summer slash winter will bring.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously summer in the calendar, but winter in the business.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I'm I'm not sure what it'll bring.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sort of curious.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's quite nice that you're kind of leaving it open, you're not trying to control and dictate what that ought to look like.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's a few things like in the diary, so we love to go to festivals, I love to dance, so it's like a full like let's go dancing, and that that the dancing thing actually we haven't really talked about, but we've yeah, you and I have been dancing together quite a lot, and there's something about that embodied it's so it's just so life-giving for me.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, it's like it's just all I want to march and I want to protest and I want to dance, yeah, and then I want to retreat and write, and that's it.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, amazing! And then maybe see the people I love.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's great.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's just to have that clarity.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I feel like as I'm a you know, if I get to be an older woman, like I'm gonna be an older lady who marches and dances and retreats.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that's it.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, perfect.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that sounds really like I want that.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: Look at the smile on your face as you're saying it, it's so lovely.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I don't know, that's you know, a bit of that's happening already, which is wonderful.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: So summer is dancing and being being in being in my body and enjoying it and being with people that we love and um I'm not I don't think I'd be well, I've proven to not be a very good choreographed dancer, and much more free-flowing.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the stuff that we've been to is a bit more feel it in your body and move as you wish to move, isn't it?
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and what I've loved about those spaces is uh what what I've experimented with and has been new for me is when we've been to some of the women-only spaces and when we've been into some of the sober spaces, it's just been so interesting.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you take out the pressure, there's some of those extra pressures that can happen.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when you're just in your own body and you're not feeling observed or looked at or anything else, you feel really safe, and that's been amazing just to experience that.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I like what you said about the safeness because what until we did that woman-only sober thing, I hadn't realized that I've been on guard.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: 100% hyper vigilant.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, yeah, is my body safe?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Who's looking at me?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what are their intentions?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: All of that, isn't it?
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're sort of attuned to that inner space.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: We don't do it consciously, and you're then you're not fully relaxing because you're actually on hyper alert about your stuff and your body and you know.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I like that you said about um experimenting with these things because if you hadn't invited me to that sober thing, I probably would never have gone to one.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because it wouldn't have been on my radar at all.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, I am the sort of person who doesn't need alcohol anyway to enjoy myself and to let go.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm quite comfortable in myself to do that.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was so nice the way it was the way it was done, and to just experience it, and also, like you said, to experiment with different offerings.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really interesting.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: So we know one of them was not really for me, but that's fine.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and just give it a go.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Give it a go.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: At least I tried it and I know.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's homing that is.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: Let's find some more dancing.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: We need to get some more in the diary.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to have things ahead, yeah.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: That you know it's gonna be yeah, it's nice to have those.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know it's gonna be fun, but maybe it's not that you know you're gonna experiment and it'll be what it is, and it's it's experimenting.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's no expectation for it to be amazing, but the main thing is we're doing it and we're out there.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's awesome.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, any walks planned?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Any walks planned.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: My partner and I have a walking day once a month as our that's what we aim to do every month.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: We take a day off and do that together, and he's really good at sort of knowing where to go.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly just tend to just go with him and go find that looks great, and I'll yeah, because he does running and he kind of knows where some walks are.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that works for me.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't really go, I need to walk here.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm happy just to go with someone else who has a plan.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of my life is quite structured and planned.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite nice to just go and walk where someone else has a plan.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: I find it quite relaxing.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I'm aware that he does most of the labour there, so perhaps my reciprocity need it with that one.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: You should make a salad.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I could bring well, okay.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: You laugh, and this if my family does ever listen to this conversation, so they will take the meat because I always bring carrots.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, do you?
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: I might always bring peppers on my wall.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's great.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe even the old sugar snap pea, very portable snack, and they just take the mix on it.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do they?
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're like, what are you doing carrying like ridiculously heavy items comparative to calorific actual value when you're expending energy on a wall?
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is the most useless item that you can bring.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, it's really embarrassing to be sat with me halfway up a hill carrying a carrot.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how embarrassing is that?
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so anyway, that's a constant source of mockery my family I bring.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's why the salad was at the forefront of the but even that's not a salad, is it?
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like a vegetable.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's so funny.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my well.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's fine.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: Bring it on.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: I've got um Oldswater Way.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what are you oh yeah?
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's with um anti-racist Cumbria.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we're doing is it twenty?
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's 20 miles.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I might have because I put the idea out there, I think I'm now organizing it.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I need to get some help from a few people to luckily we have people in the group who are qualified mountain leaders and stuff.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm just there for the photos.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, some of the photos, and I'll bring you back.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I do enjoy walking, I enjoy the long distance walking and just being away from the cars and all of this stuff.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: I like being near water, so that's always and the talk, isn't it?
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_02: The talk and the chat while you walk is always yeah, I love that we kind of go in and out of different conversations with different people.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's really good.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: Such a joy.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's really good.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, part of the walking process.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: You asked me about have I got any walks plans, and I am thinking about next so I'm 50 next year and I'm thinking, do I want to do like a way?
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like you just said I didn't know about the Oldswater way, I'll find out about that after this after this.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, where there's like a few days to do a bit of a longer thing where it's a bit more of a journey.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like the Dales way or the Korean.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll explore, I'll let you know where I'll go.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm up for something that's a bit more leg with you.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that'd be fun to do.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, two to and tiara, and like like you say, different conversations with different people, different times.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, a bit I guess a bit more physical challenge to do it day after day for a few days.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: I tend to have a if I'm doing a walk a day, the next day is just like a slump, yeah.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: Netflix.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely, especially if it's more than 10 days.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the challenge of showing up the nets of the walk.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, that would be a new thing, but yeah, that feels like a good stretch.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that sounds ace.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what a nice way to kick off your decade.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that'll be a lot.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: That'll be good.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, amazing.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, in terms of podcasting, yeah, what are your key takeaways?
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what are your key takeaways from podcasting?
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_02: What do you enjoy about all like listening and yeah?
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, I listen to podcasts a lot.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I always speed them up.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if anyone is still listening to our meandering chat today, feel free.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you have been putting us on 1.5 or whatever you need.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um I know lots of people that can't do that because it's too fast.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I I find anyway, that's just me.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I speed up yoga videos as well.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love yoga, but I can't do them.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can't do them at the speed.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: I do them at one point five don't tell.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tell anyone that I do yoga with that I do that.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: How funny.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um just you know.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just some days, it's just a bit too slow.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I love yoga and I love breath work.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: I love I love meditation, I love taking time, I love being in winter, I love all this thing.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: It just needs to be speedy.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: It just needs to be.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have a go because I've got the cookie yoga.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, maybe it's a particularly slow yoga person, but anyway, so I just tend to speed up podcasts.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's when I'm travelling, when I'm on a train, when I'm walking through a new city, if I'm on my way to be with a group somewhere, yeah, um, or if I'm cooking tea at home, I'll have a podcast on.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I absolutely love the kind of chat in the background.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: I take my news that way, I never watch the news and I don't listen to the news, but I listen to some podcasts that kind of summarise and do a bit of analysis of global events, so I love that way of just like staying in touch but not getting totally my like my nerves isn't completely overtweaked with all the things going on.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and then there's a few other podcasts that I enjoy, and then in terms of being on them, I love guesting on podcasts.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: I've done lots and I love what do you love about them?
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it's having a good chat, isn't it?
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean we always have good chats, but then that idea of other people can be listening in.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe a topic that they might might not have yeah.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, there's lots of connection points for people, and I'm always curious like what resonates, like here's the thing, well what what meant something to you, or yeah, what felt important to you, what did you recognise, or what was different, or yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's interesting.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what about you?
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing about doing the podcast?
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I've been talking about this podcast for two years or more, but um I had to pause everything last year because my dad got sick, and so I thought, right, I've literally got no excuses now, so I need to pack on.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, I just like the idea of conversations, and part of my day job, a big part of my day job is actually what I've realized is actually interviewing people, yeah.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_02: I talk to a lot of people, I need to um build trusting relationships quickly, yeah, and I need to be able to extract information in a meaningful way.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I figured well you basically are a podcast host.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I felt like I've been podcasting my whole career.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, fair enough.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, you I mean that's because of transferable skills, isn't it?
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_02: And also I just like people.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think people are fascinating, and not everyone has the confidence to say not, and I don't mean you because you're um a seasoned professional at this, but not everyone feels comfortable about talking about themselves, and not everyone understands how great they are.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought it'd be nice to to shine a light, yeah, it's lovely.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: A whole range of people, not just um seasoned professionals, but also the people you know what I mean.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean to play you down, but the people who wouldn't necessarily do this sort of thing.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's good, it's really good.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully that brings out some people who are um who don't see themselves in this space.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's a better way to put it.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me too, there's something about audio that's really intimate.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I do watch a bit of video, I don't watch a lot of video content.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just I don't know, maybe because I'm doing something else, it's maybe the multitasking thing.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and I know that that doesn't really exist, and actually we can't focus on one thing at a time, but I do like having audio in the background if I'm doing something.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it feels really intimate, like the people that I listen to regularly, you know, they've been in your ear and you feel like you know them, don't you?
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know their voice and you know their intonation and the way they laugh, and it's there is a real intimacy there.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I think for me not being on camera is really refreshing.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: I do quite a lot of stuff on camera, and it's really good to not be on camera and just to be a voice and not be thinking about you know, how are we looking, or having again it's that being the um the gaze bit that we touched on when we talked about dancing, yeah, not having a sense of the gaze is really freeing in this conversation that we've not been thinking about angles and lighting and how our skin's looking and just all the things that we can do.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, all the things, yeah.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: So which can become a bit absurd.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: Which is a real thing for me.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: Too much.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a thing about my mouth because I think I don't think my mouth is weird, but then I look at some pictures like it's really wonky, and so then you can just get in your head.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's good to not be thinking about any of that, and so podcasting is just the Fact, it's audio, I think it's a lot in some ways a lot more fluent for me.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_00: For me, yeah.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's also um freeing, maybe.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was kind of keen to also incorporate the walks because I don't like being behind a desk.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: I find it really boring, and I find that um it changes me, yes, and it makes me much more stiff, yeah, and I am much more active, and I do feel more myself when I'm walking.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we know, don't we, from all the data that when we walk, it kind of is freeing up different parts of our brain, so we're actually accessing different creativity, and the nate, you know, there's nature and there's a view, and there's all the things that add that extra stimulation, and and it's also more relaxing for our nervous systems because we're in movement, and yeah, it's all the good, all the best.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: I do a lot of my one-on-one work walking, and and I call them walk and talks.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, oh yeah, I'm gonna paint it.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: For those reasons.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kidding, we'll share it.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, no, that's that's another reason I like to it's the people and it's the um active side of it.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because I do feel like you were saying, it does change the dynamic, it changes the conversation, much less self-conscious.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and um and I'm a firm believer that we're all really very interested.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's lots of stories, yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: And also when you're walking, you're not staring at each other, like we're not sitting, and we are looking at each other now and again, but we're also looking at our surroundings, and and we're able to sort of be with what we want to say and be present with that rather than again.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: That for me, sometimes it's a bit of an intensity if you're kind of staring at somebody across a table.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and yeah, I I find it a bit more freeing to be walking and facing the same direction, and yeah, there's something in that, isn't there?
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I quite like the whole relaxed tone of things.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that brings us to the end of our walk with Katie Murray around the beautiful market town of Kendall.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: Our conversation was rich with insights as Katie shared her wisdom on so many important topics, especially the concept of seasons and how we can apply these to different parts of our lives.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: By understanding these seasons, we can approach our activities with greater intention, knowing whether we we ought to be pushing forward or whether to take a step back.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_02: We also had a good laugh when Katie mentioned her love of salads.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_02: Moments like these remind us that even in deep conversation, it's important to find joy and humour along the way.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: If you're interested in learning more from Katie, I highly recommend checking out her book, Changemakers, as well as signing up for her newsletters and workshops.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be sharing links on our social media platforms, so please be sure to follow along.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: A big, big thank you to Katie for sharing her journey with us today and to all of you for tuning in.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: If you enjoyed our chat, please share this episode with your friends and don't forget to engage with us on social media.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_02: We'd love to hear your thoughts and continue the conversation.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, take care and keep exploring!