Latest / No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women / Shame, Anxiety, And Women With ADHD

Transcript

Shame, Anxiety, And Women With ADHD · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:00
  Jorie: You'll see us like on our phone doom scrolling, right?
• 0:03
  Jorie: And it'll look like we're being lazy, but in our head, we're like, just go do the thing.
• 0:07
  Jorie: Just go do the thing.
• 0:08
  Jorie: Why can't I do the thing?
• 0:09
  Jorie: Oh, I'm such a loser.
• 0:10
  Jorie: I'm just so lazy.
• 0:16
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
• 0:18
  Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
• 0:25
  Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
• 0:32
  Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
• 0:41
  Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature, and flourish.
• 0:45
  Mary: Let's dive in.
• 0:47
  Mary: Hey Violets, welcome to the show.
• 0:51
  Mary: For the first part of my career, nearly 20 years, I worked in public education.
• 0:56
  Mary: A large part of my job was supporting students with diagnosed learning disabilities, including ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
• 1:06
  Mary: Often, children were diagnosed in early elementary school because it was obvious that they were impaired in their ability to attend to details or stay in their seats for more than five minutes.
• 1:15
  Mary: When I began working with a college population, I started to see many students begin their first year with a new diagnosis of ADHD.
• 1:24
  Mary: And often, once I got to know them, I suspected that it wasn't truly or purely ADHD, it was anxiety.
• 1:31
  Mary: Research shows that nearly 50% of people qualify for both diagnoses.
• 1:36
  Mary: Also, I gotta say, some of them with ADHD had probably struggled most of their lives, but simply didn't have behaviors that warranted a diagnosis or even an evaluation.
• 1:47
  Mary: And also, not every school district is created equal.
• 1:50
  Mary: If students attended a private school or a district that was financially stressed or poorly staffed, they may only have been chosen for evaluation if they had behaviors that impacted the learning of other students.
• 2:03
  Mary: The thing is, many, many more boys were diagnosed in girls.
• 2:07
  Mary: The H, hyperactivity, in ADHD, is not usually obvious in girls.
• 2:12
  Mary: Is that truly brain functioning or is it socialization?
• 2:15
  Mary: And although the research is clear that you can't suddenly develop ADHD, it is classified as a neurodevelopmental diagnosis in the DSM V, environmental issues can aggravate or increase symptoms.
• 2:28
  Mary: For example, a chaotic home life with very little structure or consuming snippets of 25 TikTok videos every half hour.
• 2:36
  Mary: Our brains are not made for that.
• 2:38
  Mary: But I'm intrigued by ADHD in women, because as I said, the symptoms of fleeting attention or inability to organize tasks can not only be confused with the symptoms of anxiety, but they seem to be more easily masked in women.
• 2:52
  Mary: When I heard from my guest today about talking with me on the show, it was a no-brainer.
• 2:56
  Mary: Not only does she navigate ADHD herself, but she helps other women to do the same.
• 3:01
  Mary: I can't wait to look more closely at both the symptoms of ADHD and the strategies she uses and teaches to help women cope.
• 3:09
  Mary: Jory Hoolihan is an ADHD life coach, public speaker, and educator who specializes in working with women diagnosed later in life.
• 3:16
  Mary: After living with undiagnosed ADHD until age 49, she brings a deep understanding of the unique challenges, strengths, and perspectives that come with late discovery.
• 3:27
  Mary: She's also the host of the new podcast ADHD and with Jory Hoolihan, where she her conversational heartfelt style blends lived experience with research-backed strategies.
• 3:38
  Mary: Her mission is to help ADHD women feel empowered by their ADHD so they can move from simply getting by to truly thriving.
• 3:46
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Jory.
• 3:49
  Jorie: Thank you so much for having me.
• 3:50
  Jorie: I'm really excited about this conversation.
• 3:53
  Mary: All right.
• 3:54
  Mary: So usually with my guests, I start with having them talk a bit about themselves.
• 3:58
  Mary: And I know that you kind of weave that into the work you do.
• 4:01
  Mary: So can you tell us a bit about your early journey?
• 4:05
  Mary: How did ADHD affect you?
• 4:07
  Mary: And then how did you come to have a diagnosis?
• 4:11
  Jorie: Yeah.
• 4:11
  Jorie: So the first time I tried to talk to a doctor about it, I was 19-ish and was out of hand dismissed.
• 4:20
  Jorie: Well, you're in college now, kind of thing.
• 4:22
  Jorie: And the reason I had brought it up was I was there for something else.
• 4:25
  Jorie: And he said, Oh, is there anything else anything else you want to talk about while you're here?
• 4:29
  Jorie: And I was like, Well, yeah.
• 4:30
  Jorie: But then when I tried to explain it to him, it just felt like mush coming out of my mouth.
• 4:35
  Jorie: It just didn't, I'm like, how do I explain this?
• 4:38
  Jorie: And I just knew I was really struggling.
• 4:40
  Jorie: And it was, I mean, definitely with the focus and things like that.
• 4:44
  Jorie: But I just felt like things that other people were finding easy, I was really struggling with.
• 4:48
  Jorie: But because he was like, no, you're fine, it's just college.
• 4:51
  Jorie: And I was like, well, okay.
• 4:53
  Jorie: And over the years, I would do the thing where I would compare myself to other people.
• 4:58
  Jorie: And I would be like, well, they do this and they're fine.
• 5:00
  Jorie: I guess it's nothing, you know, only to find out years later, guess what?
• 5:04
  Jorie: They had also been diagnosed with ADHD years later.
• 5:06
  Jorie: So the last time I brought it up prior to my diagnosis, I was 39, I think, 38, 39.
• 5:12
  Jorie: And I was in for a physical and he asked that question, is there anything else you want to talk about?
• 5:19
  Jorie: And I said, I think I might have ADHD.
• 5:22
  Jorie: And I was trying to explain it.
• 5:24
  Jorie: And again, it was really hard to explain.
• 5:27
  Jorie: Because I didn't even, I even when I did officially get diagnosed, I still didn't really understand just how much it impacted every area of my life.
• 5:36
  Jorie: I didn't, I, you know, I didn't know.
• 5:38
  Jorie: But I knew what he was going to say before he even said it, which was, well, you have a kid now.
• 5:41
  Jorie: And I was like, yeah, but I, you know, I had these problems before I had the kid.
• 5:45
  Jorie: They just seem exponentially worse now.
• 5:47
  Jorie: Like, I don't, you know.
• 5:49
  Jorie: And so I just thought, okay, well, I guess I just don't adult well.
• 5:53
  Jorie: And I got really, you know, when I got into my 40s, I I really started to get depressed because especially career-wise, I was just floundering from one thing to another thing, trying to find something that would stick.
• 6:06
  Jorie: And I was always that person that's like, you know, this is the planner that's gonna change my life starting tomorrow.
• 6:12
  Jorie: Oh, I'm gonna be so organized.
• 6:14
  Jorie: Oh, I'm gonna accomplish all these things.
• 6:15
  Jorie: And it just, it just wasn't happening.
• 6:18
  Jorie: And then COVID hit, and like a lot of women, all my world converged into into one place.
• 6:27
  Jorie: And I was in a mastermind at the time.
• 6:31
  Jorie: I still am actually with the same women.
• 6:33
  Jorie: And uh, I don't even know what I did, but I said, Oh, I'm sorry, I think I might have ADHD because this had come back into my view because TikTok had become a big thing, and I had been avoiding it like the plague because I knew I'd get addicted to it, and then I did eventually end up on it.
• 6:51
  Jorie: I ended up almost immediately in ADHD TikTok.
• 6:55
  Jorie: And what was catching my attention wasn't the obvious signs of ADHD, like the forgetfulness and that kind of stuff.
• 7:02
  Jorie: It was things like out of sight, out of mind, and that that included people.
• 7:06
  Jorie: That was a big one where I went, Oh, is that that's real?
• 7:10
  Jorie: That's that would explain a lot.
• 7:12
  Jorie: Um, anecdotal communication was that was the term I had heard used for it.
• 7:16
  Jorie: And I was like, okay, I've communicated that way my entire life.
• 7:19
  Jorie: Okay.
• 7:20
  Jorie: And I thought, well, I'm not self-diagnosing myself from TikTok videos, I just refuse to do that.
• 7:26
  Jorie: So when I was in this this mastermind and I said, Oh, sorry, I think I might have ADHD.
• 7:30
  Jorie: One of the women in there stopped the meeting basically and was like, I actually think you do.
• 7:35
  Jorie: And I think it's why you struggle so much.
• 7:37
  Jorie: And I think you're always going to flounder until you get this figured out.
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 7:42
  Jorie: And yeah, and I am grateful every single day that she did that.
• 7:48
  Jorie: Um, she herself actually had ADHD.
• 7:51
  Jorie: She herself had been diagnosed late, and so she saw me just drowning.
• 7:54
  Jorie: I'd known her for, I don't know, probably five, six years at that point.
• 7:58
  Jorie: And so, but it was COVID, so I had to go through like an online thing because I nobody was seeing anybody yet.
• 8:05
  Jorie: And I was like, this will at least get the ball rolling.
• 8:08
  Jorie: And so I was diagnosed with uh combined presentation, and then I I don't know why, but I kind of was like, okay, well, now that I know what this is, I can totally handle this on my own.
• 8:20
  Jorie: I don't need therapy, I don't need a coach, I don't need medication, I'm fine, I got this.
• 8:24
  Jorie: I did not.
• 8:26
  Jorie: Um, and I find that a lot of women, they think there's something that happens when you get the diagnosis where you just think that suddenly things are going to be different.
• 8:34
  Jorie: And I don't really know why we do that.
• 8:36
  Jorie: Um, but the same friend who said, I think you have ADHD, she reached out a few months later and said, I really think you should try medication in her very subtle way.
• 8:45
  Jorie: And I was like, Okay.
• 8:47
  Jorie: And I was worried because you know, you hear these horror stories, and you know, I'd heard about addiction and all this other stuff, and I was very uneducated on it.
• 8:54
  Jorie: I my information was from like the 80s and 90s, right?
• 8:57
  Jorie: And uh I said, you know what, I I might as well, I because I was drowning, just drowning.
• 9:04
  Jorie: And the medication changed everything for me.
• 9:07
  Jorie: And I don't take that for granted because I know not everybody can do it, not everybody wants to do it.
• 9:12
  Jorie: I don't I I feel it's a very personal choice for people as far as that.
• 9:16
  Jorie: But for me, it really it changed a lot for me.
• 9:20
  Jorie: And the other thing that I noticed was that there was nobody out there for me.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:27
  Jorie: Like I am out there now for women because everybody was geared towards adolescent boys.
• 9:31
  Jorie: And I was like, okay, well, that's a problem.
• 9:35
  Jorie: So I guess I'll fix it.
• 9:37
  Jorie: Okay.
• 9:37
  Jorie: Yeah.
• 9:38
  Jorie: To go back to your question about how what like my signs, the signs and symptoms were.
• 9:43
  Jorie: Well, out of sight, out of mind is by far my biggest challenge.
• 9:46
  Jorie: If it is not in front of me, my brain just forgets that it exists.
• 9:52
  Jorie: Um, appointments, it's not in the calendar, doesn't exist.
• 9:55
  Jorie: Um, I never thought I had time blindness because I'm chronically early for everything, but this is where the anxiety I think comes into play because I'm so I I need to be on time, I need to be on time.
• 10:07
  Jorie: And so if I'm if I'm on time, I'm late.
• 10:10
  Jorie: Um, but I definitely have time blindness in terms of I struggle to estimate how long things will take.
• 10:16
  Jorie: Um, understanding how to prioritize really takes a very concerted effort because my we're very optimistic people and we tend to underestimate how long things will take.
• 10:26
  Jorie: So that struggle that then impacts how well you prioritize and organize your time and things like that.
• 10:32
  Jorie: And yeah, easily distracted, the the obvious things.
• 10:36
  Jorie: But the things that I also didn't realize were part of it was like it impacted my money, right?
• 10:41
  Jorie: Impulse shopping definitely can be part of ADHD.
• 10:44
  Jorie: Uh, it impacted how I ate, you know, because I was a grazer and I didn't realize that it was because my brain was low on dopamine, and that was my way of trying to get dopamine.
• 10:53
  Jorie: There were a lot of different areas, and I I know I'm kind of just like rambling here, sorry.
• 10:59
  Jorie: Um, but it wasn't until after my diagnosis that I realized just how much, how many, how ADHD just has fingers in literally every area of your life.
• 11:11
  Mary: Well, there's about 17 things in there that I want to talk more about.
• 11:15
  Mary: Okay, so first of all, let me um stick a pin in all that and clarify because I want people to really understand the diagnosis a little bit, because there is a lot of misinformation or people thinking, this is what I have, because like you're saying, I watch TikTok.
• 11:33
  Mary: So ADHD can have really two types of presentation.
• 11:38
  Mary: And one is the inattentive type, one is more the hyperactivity type of presentation, right?
• 11:45
  Mary: So it's we think of the boys, the young boys with the hyperactivity where they're climbing the walls in the classroom and they're fidgeting and they can't pay attention.
• 11:53
  Mary: And I think, especially in I'll say our generation, because I think we're pretty close in age, that is, as you're saying, that's how we see it.
• 12:02
  Mary: When we when we think ADHD, it's like, oh yeah, that's boys.
• 12:06
  Mary: And so it's really to me fascinating how women kind of manifest this and where we put it in our brain.
• 12:17
  Mary: What reason do we give for having some of these things happen?
• 12:22
  Mary: So you talked about one of the things was out of sight, out of mind with people.
• 12:28
  Mary: Tell me more about that.
• 12:31
  Jorie: So because our brains, our frontal lobe doesn't fire properly, right?
• 12:38
  Jorie: Because of the lack of dopamine, which then converts into norepinephrine.
• 12:41
  Jorie: So if you don't have enough of it, your frontal lobe doesn't fire as well.
• 12:44
  Jorie: And the frontal lobe works as a filter.
• 12:46
  Jorie: And so, you know, how I try to explain it in very layman's terms, because I'm like, I'm not a therapist.
• 12:53
  Jorie: This is just how I've learned to, you know, uh to explain it is um that a properly working frontal lobe, you know, we get inundated with things we don't need to know on a conscious level all day.
• 13:06
  Jorie: And a properly working frontal lobe will take that 99% that we don't need to know and put it somewhere in the subconscious, and then the rest of the brain goes, Oh, this got through, like the stuff, the important stuff gets through.
• 13:15
  Jorie: And the brain says, Oh, that got through, it must be important, we need to pay attention to it.
• 13:18
  Jorie: But if your frontal lobe isn't firing properly, way more information gets through.
• 13:23
  Jorie: But the rest of the brain is still saying, Oh, that got through, it must be important, we need to pay attention to it.
• 13:27
  Jorie: So as a result, things that are not in front of us on a regular basis tend to sometimes just get lost because our brain is paying attention to all of the other things that are getting through.
• 13:41
  Jorie: And I really noticed it.
• 13:43
  Jorie: Um, when I heard that, I went, oh my gosh, this explains so much.
• 13:47
  Jorie: Because at the time I was working as a realtor.
• 13:50
  Jorie: And I would have somebody call me and say, you know, I'm interested in buying a home.
• 13:54
  Jorie: Okay.
• 13:54
  Jorie: And so I we would talk about financing, and I'd say, okay, I need you to go and get a pre-approval letter and I'll reach out to you in a week.
• 14:02
  Jorie: And in my brain, I'm like, I'll remember to call.
• 14:05
  Jorie: Completely forget this person existed until I don't even know when if I even did.
• 14:09
  Jorie: And my dad would call me and he'd be like, Yeah, you know, just want to make sure you're still alive.
• 14:17
  Jorie: Haven't heard from you in like a month and a half.
• 14:19
  Jorie: And because I would just forget my parents.
• 14:22
  Jorie: I don't live in the same town as them, right?
• 14:24
  Jorie: So it's not one of these things where I see them every day or whatever.
• 14:27
  Jorie: We now realize my dad probably had ADHD, and that's why it took him a month and a half to call me.
• 14:31
  Jorie: But it was things like that, but even like good friends that I would be like, oh, I need to call them because something was going on in their life.
• 14:41
  Jorie: And it just they weren't in front of me.
• 14:44
  Jorie: Something else was getting my attention, and so they did not get the attention.
• 14:48
  Jorie: And I thought I was just a really terrible person that, you know, because I say we kind of don't miss people, which is a weird thing to say.
• 14:57
  Jorie: I miss people, but I don't because I don't think about them until somebody says, Oh, I was talking about so and so, and then I go, Oh, yeah, I haven't talked to them in forever.
• 15:06
  Jorie: And then I'll be like, Oh, I need to reach out, I really miss them.
• 15:09
  Jorie: But in the day-to-day, it just doesn't happen.
• 15:11
  Jorie: And so, like I said, I I always thought I was just some kind of horrible person, and I didn't realize that that was a part of it.
• 15:19
  Jorie: Bills are on auto pay because if I put the bill down and then something gets put on top of it, forget about it.
• 15:26
  Jorie: Uh, like I said before, appointments, if they're not in my calendar, they don't exist.
• 15:31
  Mary: Yeah.
• 15:31
  Jorie: Uh, it's a very common thing with ADHD that a lot of people don't realize uh is is part of it.
• 15:37
  Mary: Yeah.
• 15:38
  Mary: Well, I think it's an important thing to recognize and talk about because as you're saying that, I'm learning something.
• 15:45
  Mary: And I'm thinking actually about a couple of my clients right now that are women that say the exact thing.
• 15:51
  Mary: I think I'm just a bad friend because I don't keep up with people.
• 15:55
  Mary: So now I'm like thinking, all right, I gotta look into that later and explore that a little bit.
• 16:00
  Mary: But I think the other thing that people sometimes misunderstand when we say lack of attention, it's really more like the stimuli are coming in kind of equally, right?
• 16:13
  Mary: Where some people can say, oh, this is important, this isn't important, or in a recipe, like you don't put the same amount of salt as you put maybe of I don't know, onions or something.
• 16:26
  Mary: Yeah.
• 16:26
  Mary: You know, because you need some nuance.
• 16:28
  Mary: Is it almost like there's so many things coming in?
• 16:32
  Mary: It's hard to sort through and know exactly what to pay attention to.
• 16:37
  Jorie: Yes, only you don't know that's what's happening.
• 16:39
  Jorie: It because it's just normal for you to have like all this going on.
• 16:44
  Jorie: And, you know, I explain it to people because a lot of people would say, well, if it if your ADC so bad, why'd it take so long to get diagnosed?
• 16:52
  Jorie: I'm like, isn't that the question of the century?
• 16:54
  Jorie: Why did so many women, you know, get missed?
• 16:58
  Jorie: But I'm like, think of it this way imagine that you have bad vision, only you don't know you have bad vision, and you think the world sees the world the same way you do, and things that should be red flags that you need glasses, like maybe you're tripping over things all the time because you don't see them well, but instead people go, Oh, you're so clumsy, you really need to watch where you're going.
• 17:18
  Jorie: And then you start to internalize that and you go, Oh, I'm so clumsy.
• 17:20
  Jorie: I really need to watch where I'm going.
• 17:22
  Jorie: And it isn't until somebody like my friend says, Hey, you know what?
• 17:25
  Jorie: I think you might need glasses.
• 17:27
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:28
  Jorie: That you go, oh, and then you put them on, you're like, Oh my gosh, this is what everyone else has been working with.
• 17:33
  Jorie: You know?
• 17:34
  Jorie: And so it is um you don't really know where to look.
• 17:39
  Jorie: Everything feels equally important and needs to be done yesterday.
• 17:43
  Jorie: So when I look at a to-do list, one of the hardest things I had to learn to do was not have everything from my brain dump in the to-do list.
• 17:53
  Jorie: So the brain dump is not the list, it is what guides the list.
• 17:57
  Jorie: So you it's I'm a big, big fan of writing things out, getting things out of your head, externalizing your thoughts.
• 18:04
  Jorie: But then you have this big list of things that you need to do.
• 18:08
  Jorie: And so learning how to figure out what does come first.
• 18:13
  Jorie: Is there something that can't get done until this gets done?
• 18:15
  Jorie: For example, um, is there a deadline, an external deadline that's maybe not yours, but somebody else's, things like that.
• 18:22
  Jorie: But yeah, everything feels equally important and it really makes it a struggle to prioritize.
• 18:26
  Jorie: Um, I had a client once to give an example where she, we were having a session, she said, okay, I'm feeling really stuck.
• 18:33
  Jorie: I I don't know which to do.
• 18:35
  Jorie: And I said, Okay.
• 18:36
  Jorie: And she said, Well, my taxes are due today.
• 18:39
  Jorie: And if I don't get them turned in today, I'm gonna have this big fine.
• 18:43
  Jorie: But I also have to go to Costco because I have like no food in my house and and I, you know, whatever.
• 18:47
  Jorie: And at that point, I was sort of like, okay, let's talk her through this.
• 18:51
  Jorie: I'm like, okay, what are the consequences if you don't do this today?
• 18:54
  Jorie: That's usually the question I'll lead with with that.
• 18:57
  Jorie: And then as soon as she started asking that question, she's like, oh, okay, taxes.
• 19:01
  Jorie: Okay, all right.
• 19:02
  Jorie: You know, but what it may be obvious to a neurotypical person, like, of course, the taxes to us, it's you know, it's equal.
• 19:10
  Jorie: And so that's where we tend to have struggles, like in the workplace where somebody says, Well, why did you work on that?
• 19:16
  Jorie: We needed this done, kind of a thing.
• 19:18
  Jorie: Um, but yeah, that is definitely part of it.
• 19:21
  Mary: Well, there's so many things in the in life, especially in the world of work, that are impacted by this.
• 19:29
  Mary: So being on time, prioritizing, finishing product projects.
• 19:34
  Mary: But you know, the one thing that stands out, and I talked about this in my introduction, I am so fascinated by the role of socialization with women.
• 19:42
  Mary: So when we think about the underdiagnosis of women, I am so curious, and I don't know the research.
• 19:52
  Mary: Maybe you know the research.
• 19:53
  Mary: Do we truly have different wiring in our brains?
• 19:56
  Mary: Or were we so socialized to sit and be?
• 19:59
  Mary: Good that it's just this whirling dervish in our brain, but we don't show it.
• 20:05
  Mary: Like boys are out there climbing on their desks and you know, laying on the floor and like throwing a pencil in the air, and the girls are sitting there sort of just paralyzed, but feeling that internally.
• 20:17
  Jorie: This is a really great point.
• 20:19
  Jorie: So, first of all, they didn't start doing studies on girls with this until like the early 2000s.
• 20:28
  Jorie: So that's part of it.
• 20:29
  Jorie: They would take people who were um like waiting to get assessed, but because they weren't looking at girls, it was mostly boys that were in the research.
• 20:39
  Jorie: And so I, in terms of the brain wiring being different, that I don't know.
• 20:43
  Jorie: Girls do tend to be diagnosed with the inattentive presentation more than hyperactive.
• 20:48
  Jorie: There is a third, which is combined, which is where you have enough markers from both, which is what I have.
• 20:52
  Jorie: I'm like, go big or go home, right?
• 20:54
  Jorie: Congratulations, Jory.
• 20:55
  Jorie: Thanks.
• 20:56
  Jorie: Um, and so when girls, I mean, girls in general, not just ADHD girls, girls in general are taught to mask from like conception, right?
• 21:09
  Jorie: You hide the things that are not quote unquote socially acceptable, which does make it more challenging for people in authority to notice certain things.
• 21:17
  Jorie: However, the other thing I have noticed is that teachers are still looking for boy symptoms in girls.
• 21:24
  Jorie: Hyperactivity in girls, while mine was the bouncing leg and chewing through pencils, it was also chatty Kathy.
• 21:33
  Jorie: I talked a lot.
• 21:34
  Jorie: And that wasn't recognized.
• 21:36
  Jorie: It was also the fact that my desk always looked like a bomb in it, my backpack always looked like a bomb in it, my room at home always looked like all of that because it's all executive dysfunction, right?
• 21:46
  Jorie: But they they their teachers are still like figuring this out in terms of what this looks like for girls.
• 21:54
  Jorie: And my hope is that because so many women are now being diagnosed, I'm hoping that they do start doing better studies because I I'm sure because I feel like we have different biologies in a lot of ways, anyway.
• 22:06
  Jorie: So there has to probably be some difference back to the first part of your um question, which is you know, are there studies that show that there's a true difference?
• 22:14
  Jorie: But I do think socialization does play a bigger role.
• 22:18
  Jorie: Boy symptoms are much more um outward and disruptive, and that is one of the reasons that they're caught early.
• 22:24
  Jorie: I do think boys tend to be overdiagnosed, and I think girls are terribly underdiagnosed.
• 22:31
  Jorie: I have one of each.
• 22:32
  Jorie: I have two kids, a boy and a girl.
• 22:34
  Jorie: He, I was getting calls about energy issues in third grade.
• 22:39
  Jorie: Yeah.
• 22:39
  Jorie: And um, because that was, you know, they were very polite about it.
• 22:43
  Jorie: Uh, and he we didn't get him diagnosed until fourth grade because we were kind of in denial.
• 22:48
  Jorie: After I was diagnosed, I was looking at my daughter and going, oh my God, she totally has this.
• 22:53
  Jorie: Again, though, COVID.
• 22:55
  Jorie: And so we had her seeing a therapist for anxiety.
• 22:59
  Jorie: And I said, I also suspect she might have ADHD, but because they were having to do remote sessions, it was hard for her to really gauge.
• 23:08
  Jorie: But finally she said, you know what, I think we need to do an assessment.
• 23:11
  Jorie: So we did, and she was inattentive.
• 23:14
  Jorie: So um, we have three people in this house who have it, and we all look different from each other in terms of how it shows up, which is also, I think, very interesting.
• 23:22
  Jorie: Um, yeah, the socialization does play a big role.
• 23:27
  Jorie: I do find that we we find our people.
• 23:30
  Jorie: Like I said, like when I was younger, and I'd be like, well, they have they do this and they're fine, and then realize later they also have ADHD.
• 23:36
  Jorie: I'm like, yeah, we really do kind of find our people.
• 23:38
  Jorie: I don't know how, but we do.
• 23:40
  Mary: So yeah.
• 23:41
  Mary: Yeah.
• 23:42
  Mary: So one of the things that I think happens with women, because you know, we're we know something is wrong, right?
• 23:50
  Mary: But we don't know what is wrong.
• 23:52
  Mary: And you even alluded to, well, everybody else is dealing with this, so it must be me.
• 23:58
  Mary: What tends to happen, I think, in women is it converts to shame.
• 24:02
  Mary: And then we talk about it less.
• 24:06
  Jorie: Yes.
• 24:07
  Mary: Did you feel that yourself?
• 24:09
  Jorie: Oh, yeah.
• 24:09
  Jorie: There is so much shame wrapped in ADHD.
• 24:12
  Jorie: I can't even begin to tell you.
• 24:14
  Jorie: When I first start seeing a client, even well, I everybody applies, and then we have a conversation to make sure it's going to be a good fit.
• 24:22
  Jorie: And I am very clear from the get-go during this conversation and any conversation we have, it is a no-judgment zone.
• 24:30
  Jorie: And I have had more than one client during an intake or early on in the session go, I don't think you understand how unbelievable it feels to talk about this openly and not feel shamed for it.
• 24:46
  Jorie: Because yeah, we're told kids that have undiagnosed ADHD or who are undertreated for it.
• 24:52
  Jorie: Here, I believe the what the statistic I heard was they hear 20,000 more negative comments than their neurotypical peers by the age of 12.
• 25:03
  unknown: Wow.
• 25:03
  Jorie: And this isn't necessarily like abusive or anything.
• 25:06
  Jorie: Sometimes it's just sit still, stop, you know, just sit still like everybody else, be quiet, whatever it is.
• 25:12
  Jorie: And that built that adds up.
• 25:13
  Jorie: It's very cumulative.
• 25:15
  Jorie: And so so much shame.
• 25:18
  Jorie: And that is why I'm I'm always thrilled when uh my clients are also seeing a therapist at the same time, because they really help them work through a lot of that.
• 25:28
  Jorie: I just try to make sure that when I'm working with them, I'm not adding to the problem.
• 25:32
  Jorie: And I'm trying to make sure that they are feeling seen and that they start to take the shame out.
• 25:39
  Jorie: When they start to say, when I say, Oh yeah, I did that too.
• 25:41
  Jorie: It's totally normal for ADHD, right?
• 25:44
  Jorie: That immediately takes some of that shame out because they go, so I really couldn't help this.
• 25:49
  Jorie: I'm like, no, because you didn't know you didn't understand how your brain worked.
• 25:52
  Jorie: You know, now we just need to figure out where your true challenges are, but we also got to figure out what your strengths are because we do have them.
• 25:59
  Jorie: It doesn't feel like it some days, especially, you know, when people come to see me, they don't ever think they have strengths, you know, but they're seeing me because life isn't going well.
• 26:07
  Jorie: So so, you know, I get it.
• 26:10
  Jorie: But I'm like, look, we're creative problem solvers because we've kind of had to be, but you know, and we have a really good sense of humor because we've kind of had to have one, but we are very smart.
• 26:20
  Jorie: It's just that most environments are not set up to work with our brains.
• 26:24
  Jorie: And so it we feel stupid in a lot of cases.
• 26:28
  Jorie: The education system is not, it's it's a one size fits all.
• 26:32
  Jorie: And the the thing I would love to see in a classroom is, and I know I'm this is very wishful thinking, but if a teacher can say, okay, so my visual learners, this is what you're gonna do, my auditory learners, this is what you're gonna do.
• 26:48
  Jorie: My kinesthetic learners, this is what you're gonna do.
• 26:51
  Jorie: The same lesson, but they they're learning it the way that they learn, as opposed to just being told, right?
• 26:59
  Jorie: And even every once in a while mix it up just so they could try to get another perspective, right?
• 27:03
  Jorie: Okay, so people who are kinesthetic, let's see what happens if you just listen to the instructions.
• 27:07
  Jorie: Because people with ADHD, verbal instructions are a nightmare.
• 27:10
  Jorie: Like, if that's all you give me, if I don't have a way to like write it down, if there's more than one step to it, good luck.
• 27:17
  Jorie: So um, but I there was a lot of shame with that because I'm like, why can't I remember this stuff?
• 27:22
  Jorie: And yet I did theater where I had to memorize, and that was fine.
• 27:26
  Jorie: But I had a way, my own way of doing it.
• 27:29
  Jorie: I would write everything out because I learned better by writing, and then I would repeat it over and over and over, and then I would get it eventually.
• 27:36
  Jorie: But it was that was how I had to do it, where other people do it there.
• 27:39
  Jorie: I don't know how other people do it, but that was how I had to do it.
• 27:42
  Jorie: Um, but the shame part of it is it there is a spiral that can happen.
• 27:48
  Jorie: Um, you probably know RSD, um, a rejection-sensitive dysphoria, which is where um sometimes even the perception of a slight or a criticism can send us reeling.
• 28:01
  Jorie: And by the time all of a sudden done, we're convinced everybody hates us, and which of course is not the case, but a big part of ADHD that a lot of people don't realize is emotional dysregulation.
• 28:11
  Jorie: ADHD is in large part a self-regulation issue, and that includes emotions.
• 28:17
  Jorie: And so a lot of times we're told that we're too much, we're too loud, we're too sensitive.
• 28:22
  Jorie: And again, we internalize all that and we try to shrink ourselves, right?
• 28:27
  Jorie: And it is it's a terrible way to live, you know.
• 28:32
  Jorie: Um, I found my diagnosis to be very liberating in a lot of ways because I was like, now that I know what this is, I'm not gonna sit here and try and hide some of this stuff.
• 28:40
  Jorie: I'm just gonna be me.
• 28:42
  Jorie: Yeah, you know, but I'm still trying to kind of figure out who I am now with this, as opposed to this person who was trying to hide all of this, but not understanding why.
• 28:50
  Mary: Yeah.
• 28:51
  Mary: Well, I want to talk a little about the word diagnosis, but first I want to say I'm so glad you brought up strengths because in the work that I do, I tend to look at how have you adapted, because there are amazing strengths.
• 29:05
  Mary: I mean, if you got to the age of 49 and, you know, it sounds like you have a relationship and you have children and, you know, that I think we tend to focus so much on quote failures.
• 29:18
  Mary: And I am using quotes on that because I feel like a failure is, you know, it's it's not a dead end.
• 29:24
  Mary: It's, you know, you learn from those things.
• 29:27
  Jorie: Exactly.
• 29:28
  Mary: But I think the thing that I find interesting, and saying this as a therapist, I'm I I'm glad we can talk about this because when I started to hear so many people say, I'm so glad I finally know what's wrong with me.
• 29:45
  Mary: And it really started with the rise of social media and people talking more freely about what they've been diagnosed with.
• 29:54
  Mary: I in my work, we rarely tell a client what their diagnosis is.
• 30:00
  Mary: And in I'll be honest, I always thought, well, I don't need to tell them their diagnosis as long as I know what symptoms we're treating and how we're going to approach it.
• 30:08
  Mary: So I always had this sense of like, why do you need a label?
• 30:12
  Mary: Because to me, in I think my generation, you don't want a label.
• 30:17
  Mary: But I'm hearing more and more people say, I'm so glad I finally know.
• 30:22
  Mary: So talk about how it was helpful for you to finally be validated when you've had sort of this idea that I think I might have ADHD.
• 30:32
  Jorie: That is a really good point.
• 30:34
  Jorie: Um, the the diagnosis is incredibly validating.
• 30:39
  Jorie: And I hear that too.
• 30:41
  Jorie: Why do you need a label?
• 30:42
  Jorie: I'm like, the label gave me an explanation.
• 30:45
  Jorie: The label gave me access to treatments I would not be able to get otherwise.
• 30:50
  Jorie: The label explained literally my entire life.
• 30:54
  Jorie: And when you spend your whole life thinking, what is wrong with me?
• 30:58
  Jorie: Why can't I do these simple things?
• 30:59
  Jorie: Why do I always forget this?
• 31:01
  Jorie: Why do whatever it is, to have this the diagnosis and go, okay, so I'm not crazy.
• 31:10
  Jorie: I'm not, you know, some lazy jerk who just needs to get their act together.
• 31:14
  Jorie: Because I was in that 99% sure, but oh, I don't know if I want to get diagnosed.
• 31:19
  Jorie: Cause I really just thought the diagnosis would be to get medication.
• 31:21
  Jorie: And in the beginning, I didn't think I was going to do medication.
• 31:24
  Jorie: But that 1%, I that 1% was the difference between I have a brain difference and I am a lazy person who needs to get their act together.
• 31:33
  Jorie: And it's a big difference.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:35
  Jorie: And I can't tell you how many times I have said the phrase to myself, I just need to work harder.
• 31:40
  Jorie: I just need to try harder.
• 31:42
  Jorie: And it wasn't about trying harder, it was about understanding how my brain worked so that I could work smarter.
• 31:48
  Jorie: And I mean, I think that's true for anybody, but for people who are neurodivergent, and I'm specific to ADHD with this things that I have to do to remember, like to not lose my keys, most people think is nuts.
• 32:03
  Jorie: Like, you know, why do you have to take all these steps?
• 32:05
  Jorie: But it's that's just uh for example, but that's how I am able to do it, right?
• 32:10
  Jorie: And and so when we can really start to understand how because ADHD is a spectrum, that's the other part of this, is that there's no one size fits all with any of this, right?
• 32:24
  Jorie: So when I work with clients, I'm like, look, I wish I could just say, hey, this is gonna work.
• 32:29
  Jorie: And uh, but I'll say this is gonna work until it doesn't.
• 32:32
  Jorie: And then we're gonna have to find a backup plan.
• 32:35
  Jorie: And they know exactly what I'm talking about because we have an interest-based nervous system, we love novelty.
• 32:42
  Jorie: So when the novelty of a new system wears off, we tend to not do it anymore, right?
• 32:48
  Jorie: And so, but when they can start to see what their patterns are, right?
• 32:53
  Jorie: This is where I really see breakthroughs happen, where they start to say, you know, normally I go into this situation and I'm like, let's say it's an emotional dysregulation thing, and I'm already like anxious and it just gets worse, and then I'm spiraling, right?
• 33:11
  Jorie: But we give them tools.
• 33:12
  Jorie: So I'm like, okay, so if you know you're going to this, what are some things that you can do ahead of time to kind of mentally prep yourself, right?
• 33:18
  Jorie: Do you even need to go to this thing?
• 33:21
  Jorie: And if it happens once you're there, what are some things that you can do?
• 33:25
  Jorie: Because to me, it's just, you know, I'm like, we just want to calm your central nervous system enough to get you out of there, right?
• 33:30
  Jorie: And so I'm like, I my big I'm my go-to is deep breathing because I think it's just it's effective and whatever.
• 33:37
  Jorie: But I also know the racing thoughts and all that stuff.
• 33:40
  Jorie: So that's where the therapist comes in more than me.
• 33:42
  Jorie: But I at least try to give them some things to work with to get them to the to the point where they can go talk to their therapist.
• 33:47
  Jorie: And when when they start to understand what their patterns are, when they start to see where their real challenges are, they can go, oh, okay.
• 33:58
  Jorie: So if this is a challenge, then and I'll say, so what do you think we could do so that maybe we can, you know, work around this?
• 34:06
  Jorie: What are some guardrails we can put around it?
• 34:07
  Jorie: Is you is usually how I phrase it.
• 34:09
  Jorie: And then it starts to become a little more second nature to them.
• 34:14
  Jorie: And then they don't have all of that shame because they just understand, like, I'm like, while we struggle to focus, we also have hyper focus, right?
• 34:23
  Jorie: And neurotypical people don't have that.
• 34:25
  Jorie: But if you can learn what your energy patterns are, for example, so our energy is different because it takes more to get us out of inertia, and so we get worn out more quickly, et cetera.
• 34:37
  Jorie: Uh, I won't go into all that, but we just we have different energy patterns than a neurotypical person.
• 34:41
  Jorie: So we will have a day where we're like knocking it out of the park, right?
• 34:44
  Jorie: We're doing, we're just getting everything done.
• 34:46
  Jorie: I'm like, and when I have a client tell me that's I'm like, and then how many days does it take you to recover after that?
• 34:51
  Jorie: And they're like, oh, that's part of ADHD.
• 34:55
  Jorie: I'm like, it can be, but yeah, that we we have we need more recovery time.
• 35:00
  Jorie: And that part of it, when they really start to put the puzzle pieces together about how their brain works, I they get so excited when they come to a session, they're like, I saw a pattern.
• 35:13
  Jorie: Yeah.
• 35:14
  Jorie: Um, because it just it takes a lot of the shame out and it it is validating to them because they see that it's not all a lost cause.
• 35:27
  Mary: Yeah.
• 35:27
  Jorie: Because as I mentioned, when people come to see me, it's because life isn't going so well.
• 35:31
  Jorie: And so when they can start to see some real change, it makes a huge difference.
• 35:36
  Jorie: And that builds their confidence and that always helps everything, right?
• 35:40
  Jorie: So um, I don't know if I answered your question.
• 35:43
  Jorie: Sorry.
• 35:44
  Mary: You did answer my question.
• 35:45
  Mary: And so what I would like to take a little segue to is this idea of the overlap between ADHD and anxiety.
• 35:53
  Mary: Because sometimes, even for me, initially, when I start to work with a client, I have that question mark invisibly above my head of like, where does some of this stuff fall?
• 36:05
  Mary: Because it's also impossible to fully tease it apart, because I'm sure you felt anxious when you couldn't do the things.
• 36:15
  Mary: So there's so much overlap and intercausal kind of things going on.
• 36:20
  Mary: So, can you talk a little about that, how that overlaps or how you see that?
• 36:26
  Jorie: Yes.
• 36:26
  Jorie: So a lot of women are diagnosed with anxiety and depression first.
• 36:31
  Jorie: When a lot of times it's actually that's a result of untreated ADHD.
• 36:37
  Jorie: Now, again, they can be their own beast too, which is why you want to get a good assessment done.
• 36:42
  Jorie: For me, I didn't even realize my whole life, I felt like I had this low grade depression that I couldn't explain.
• 36:51
  unknown: Yeah.
• 36:51
  Jorie: But it wasn't so bad that I felt like I needed to go on medication.
• 36:54
  Jorie: I didn't really want to.
• 36:55
  Jorie: I just knew I wasn't as happy as I could be.
• 36:59
  Jorie: And I just considered myself an anxious person.
• 37:02
  Jorie: I thought it was a character flaw.
• 37:04
  Jorie: And then when I when I started medication, my depression all but went away and my anxiety went down by probably half.
• 37:12
  Jorie: And I was like, oh, well, that was not what I was expecting.
• 37:17
  Jorie: That was a nice little side effect, right?
• 37:19
  Jorie: So for a lot of women, like you'll see us like on our phone doom scrolling, right?
• 37:24
  Jorie: And it'll look like we're being lazy, but in our head, we're like, just go do the thing, just go do the thing.
• 37:29
  Jorie: Why can't I do the thing?
• 37:30
  Jorie: Oh, I'm such a loser.
• 37:31
  Jorie: I'm just so lazy.
• 37:32
  Jorie: I mean, we are our own worst bullies.
• 37:36
  Mary: Yeah.
• 37:36
  Jorie: But that's where a lot of that is coming from.
• 37:38
  Jorie: And then you don't do it.
• 37:39
  Jorie: So you have all this anxiety about trying to get yourself to do it.
• 37:42
  Jorie: And then if you don't, then you're mad at yourself, you get depressed, etc.
• 37:45
  Jorie: And it can be a really vicious cycle.
• 37:48
  Jorie: And so again, I'm I'm I'm really happy that so many women are finally getting diagnosed because I think there are going to be better studies then that can kind of start to flesh that out a little bit more in terms of like when is it really anxiety versus depression?
• 38:06
  Jorie: And um, so I'm hope.
• 38:08
  Jorie: Well, that's my hope anyway, because I I do think it's important.
• 38:11
  Jorie: And like I said, they can anxiety and depression can still be there, their own thing.
• 38:16
  Mary: Yeah.
• 38:17
  Jorie: The other factor in this um is hormones, because menopause makes everything worse.
• 38:24
  Jorie: And um, but that also for women who have oh who don't have ADHD, they suddenly find themselves in our seat where they're like, all of a sudden, like I just can't remember anything.
• 38:36
  Jorie: I'm like, yes, welcome to my world.
• 38:38
  Jorie: Only mine's like so much worse now.
• 38:40
  Jorie: But again, their anxiety will start to go up, their depression will start to go up.
• 38:44
  Jorie: But that lack of dopamine, which is direct the dopamine is directly tied to estrogen levels.
• 38:49
  Jorie: When that that's why to like the week before cycle, when you still have one, um, for my clients who are on medication, they'll be like, is it normal to feel like I didn't take my meds like that week?
• 39:00
  Jorie: And I'm like, Yeah, it it actually is, because that's when your your dopamine is the lowest.
• 39:05
  Jorie: And they're like, Oh, okay, like you just want to make sure.
• 39:08
  Jorie: Um, but all of those things contribute to the the anxiety, the depression, the the the hormone, the the mood swings, you know, all of that um can definitely have a a role in that as well.
• 39:22
  Mary: Yeah.
• 39:23
  Mary: Well, and I want to touch a little bit on something that you tend to say pills don't teach skills, right?
• 39:29
  Mary: So you mentioned medication.
• 39:31
  Mary: And I think for my young college students, they would think that is the magic bullet.
• 39:38
  Mary: And one thing I will say is that when it's truly ADHD and you get the right medication, it is like a magic bullet.
• 39:46
  Mary: But you still need to do a lot of learning, right?
• 39:50
  Mary: To understand it, to adapt and make some of the coping strategies kind of be effective for you.
• 39:58
  Jorie: Yes.
• 39:58
  unknown: Yeah.
• 39:59
  Jorie: Medicaid.
• 39:59
  Jorie: It is not even it's a magic bullet in the sense that it depending like when I've started medication, I literally like started crying because I just realized my life was about to change when I sort of felt like I was like, oh, like things kind of I've heard people say, Oh, it makes my brain so quiet.
• 40:19
  Jorie: That has not been my experience.
• 40:21
  Jorie: My brain without medication is like dumpster fire anarchy.
• 40:26
  Jorie: There's just a lot of chaos, and I'm running around trying to put out fires that I'm pretty sure I said up there.
• 40:31
  Jorie: But with medication, it's more like a well-run three-ring circus.
• 40:34
  Jorie: So there's still a lot going on, but it's manageable and I don't feel overwhelmed by it.
• 40:39
  Jorie: And it's even sometimes entertaining.
• 40:41
  Jorie: So, but everybody's different in terms of that.
• 40:44
  Jorie: And medication makes a huge difference for a lot of people.
• 40:49
  Jorie: Um, both my kids have benefited greatly from it.
• 40:52
  Jorie: And we had a lot of reservations about doing that.
• 40:54
  Jorie: Um, but when we saw the difference, we were like, this is this is not even a this isn't even a contest, you know.
• 41:01
  Jorie: Uh it just made such a huge difference for them.
• 41:03
  Jorie: And for me, I realized I could be present in a conversation much more than I could without it.
• 41:10
  Jorie: That was one of the things I really wanted help with because I could be talking to somebody and it's not even anything they've said, it's not that they're boring, but they will sigh a certain way that will remind me of something that happened in the third grade and off to the races I go.
• 41:26
  Jorie: And then all of a sudden I'll be like, oh my God, how long have I been gone?
• 41:30
  Jorie: And they can tell when you're not listening, and it hurts people.
• 41:34
  Jorie: And I I always hated that.
• 41:36
  Jorie: And so for me, to be able to be present and to listen, it's not all the time, obviously, but way more often than it used to be.
• 41:47
  Jorie: I my task initiation is much better.
• 41:51
  Jorie: I can actually now do the thing instead of sitting there don't do scrolling.
• 41:54
  Jorie: And I the reason I say pills don't teach skills is because for some of us, we needed the pills to learn the skills because we couldn't be present enough to learn it and retain it, right?
• 42:07
  Jorie: But at the same time, it doesn't fix everything, it doesn't cure ADHD.
• 42:12
  Jorie: There is no cure for it.
• 42:13
  Jorie: And so I still have to learn time management skills, for example.
• 42:18
  Jorie: I still have terrible time blindness, but I'm present enough now to say, okay, I need to set my visual timer for this amount so that I can remember to take a break.
• 42:29
  Jorie: Because if I otherwise I will work for three hours and then my hips are gonna hate me and I have had no hydration, no food, no nothing, right?
• 42:38
  Jorie: And I I teach people how to take breaks because people kind of look at me with panic when I say, and you're gonna take a break, and they're like, I thought you knew how this worked.
• 42:47
  Jorie: We don't take breaks.
• 42:48
  Jorie: If we take a break, we don't go back to it.
• 42:50
  Jorie: And I'm like, no, I so my rules are don't wait too long for the first one, like 50 minutes max, usually.
• 42:58
  Jorie: Write down somewhere where you're going to see it, exactly what you are going to do when you come back from the break.
• 43:04
  Jorie: Don't say, Well, I'm just gonna keep working on that.
• 43:06
  Jorie: No, no, you gotta be specific.
• 43:07
  Jorie: Our brain does not like vagueness at all.
• 43:09
  Jorie: You need to time your break because you'll forget you're on a break.
• 43:13
  Jorie: And lastly, no sitting.
• 43:15
  Jorie: At least not on anything comfortable, no couches, whatever, because that's like the kiss of death.
• 43:21
  Jorie: And more often than not, you are gonna come back and get work done.
• 43:27
  Jorie: And that's been really effective for me.
• 43:29
  Jorie: It's been really effective for my clients.
• 43:30
  Jorie: You still have to learn skills because, like I said, it doesn't cure ADHD.
• 43:36
  Jorie: There are gonna be some aspects of your AD that will might be improved.
• 43:40
  Jorie: Your symptoms might not be as bad, but they're still there.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:43
  Jorie: And there also may be a time where maybe you can't stay on the medication, right?
• 43:48
  Jorie: Because for us, a lot of it is for a lot of us, it's a stimulant.
• 43:51
  Jorie: Maybe something happens, you end up with a heart issue, you can't be on it anymore.
• 43:54
  Jorie: At least then you'll have the foundation to be able to use those skills without medication if you need to.
• 44:00
  Jorie: So it is really important to learn them either way.
• 44:03
  Jorie: And I'm also a big proponent of ADHD is an explanation, it's not an excuse.
• 44:07
  Jorie: So you can't just be like, well, I have ADHD, oh well.
• 44:10
  Jorie: Like, yeah, that is not how this works.
• 44:12
  Jorie: Yeah.
• 44:13
  Jorie: You know, you can say, I struggle with ADHD and I'm learning to be better about returning my emails.
• 44:19
  Jorie: I'm really sorry, you know, and like own it.
• 44:24
  Jorie: But you can't be like, deal with it.
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:27
  Jorie: You know, there's just certain aspects of that where that's just not okay.
• 44:30
  Jorie: So yeah.
• 44:32
  Mary: Well, I never like to end before having some concrete suggestions, but before we do, I have a curiosity question because are you you're married?
• 44:40
  Mary: I am.
• 44:41
  Mary: So I am so curious how this changed that relationship.
• 44:45
  Mary: If all you know, you get your medication, you get the diagnosis, it's almost like you are interacting in such a different way sometimes.
• 44:55
  Jorie: My husband, the first day I took the medication, he noticed that I saw something on the counter.
• 45:01
  Jorie: I stopped, I picked it up and threw it away.
• 45:03
  Jorie: And he was like, Oh my gosh, this is gonna be amazing.
• 45:07
  Jorie: That didn't last very long, but um, it has been when I first told him I was diagnosed, he's like, You don't have that.
• 45:17
  Jorie: And I was like, Oh, you're a therapist now.
• 45:19
  Jorie: Okay.
• 45:19
  Jorie: Um, but then as he started to learn more, it's just it looks so different from Jack because Jack is my son, is exactly what people think of when they think of ADHD.
• 45:28
  Jorie: And I look like the female version of it, so it's not as quick to pick up.
• 45:33
  Jorie: And so he wasn't really entirely sure what it was.
• 45:36
  Jorie: But then as he was learning and he was like, Oh, like so the cabinet doors and drawers being open, I heard that's part of it.
• 45:43
  Jorie: I'm like, yeah, it's a weird thing, but yeah, that's I've learned that too.
• 45:46
  Jorie: I don't know why we do that, but we do.
• 45:48
  Jorie: Um, and I was a little worried in the beginning, like how it would change because I felt like I had been masking a lot.
• 45:57
  Jorie: And what if he didn't love the me that was unmasked?
• 46:00
  Mary: Yeah.
• 46:00
  Jorie: Um, and thankfully that has not been the case.
• 46:04
  Jorie: Um, we're sort of realizing he probably also has it, but it's all over his family and it's very heritable.
• 46:11
  Jorie: So I would be surprised.
• 46:12
  Jorie: But his he's not diagnosed with either, but he's got some very um, he's got some OCD-ish tendencies, let's say, and that tends to overshadow some of it.
• 46:21
  Jorie: So um, but it's been it's been interesting because a lot of the stuff I'm when I'm learning it, I want to, I I share it with him, and he's like, Oh, that's kind of cool.
• 46:31
  Jorie: And now he's like looking up videos too, and he's like, Okay, so I saw this.
• 46:34
  Jorie: Is this true?
• 46:35
  Jorie: And so he's curious about it.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:37
  Jorie: And so I think that's helped.
• 46:39
  Jorie: A lot of unfortunately, a lot of women they get their diagnosis, they go home, and they're told, no, you you don't have that.
• 46:46
  Jorie: That's just an excuse.
• 46:48
  Jorie: Oh, and it's so deflating, you know, it's so it just is so dismissive and it just breaks my heart when I hear people talk about that.
• 46:58
  Jorie: That's been their experience.
• 46:59
  Jorie: So I always say, you know, send them to my Instagram, send them to my Facebook, and have them watch my reels because they'll start to see you in what I talk about.
• 47:09
  Jorie: And then it's coming from a third party, it's not coming from you, and they need that edification, right?
• 47:14
  Jorie: They need to see that it's coming from somebody other than them sometimes.
• 47:17
  Jorie: So I always encourage people to do that if they're in that situation.
• 47:20
  Jorie: And I have had people reach out and say, My wife made me look at your Instagram.
• 47:27
  Jorie: But I have to say, this is explaining a lot about her.
• 47:30
  Mary: Yeah.
• 47:30
  Jorie: And I just think that's such an amazing thing.
• 47:33
  Mary: It is.
• 47:33
  Mary: And I the education, I think, is so important because, like we've been talking about, there's sort of this idea of what ADHD looks like.
• 47:40
  Mary: And it is just not that, because that continuum idea is really important, that it's a spectrum.
• 47:46
  Mary: Yes.
• 47:47
  Mary: So before we end, I would love to talk a little bit about if there's a woman listening or multiple women listening and the light bulbs above their head are going off.
• 47:57
  Mary: Where would you tell them to start to get help or a diagnosis or whatever?
• 48:04
  Jorie: So I believe if it is financially feasible, I would I would encourage them to get an assessment because then you're gonna know.
• 48:14
  Jorie: That being said, I would make sure that the people who are doing the assessment understand what ADHD looks like in women, because unfortunately, there are still a lot out there who don't.
• 48:25
  Jorie: And so I do recommend getting an assessment if you can.
• 48:30
  Jorie: Because, like I said, there can be other things too that can that like bipolar is very similar.
• 48:35
  Jorie: Um, I and there's other things that can be going on too that can look like ADHD.
• 48:40
  Jorie: There's also a lot of talk about if if you had severe trauma as a child that that trauma can't there's there's debate about whether it is ADHD or if it is ADHD-like symptoms, right?
• 48:55
  Jorie: And you need to know because you don't want to put somebody on a simulant medication if they don't have ADHD because it doesn't work the same way for them.
• 49:01
  Jorie: Um so, but I would definitely do that first.
• 49:06
  Jorie: Um you will if you do get the diagnosis, I will tell you you will go through a grieving period, which is like things could have been so different if I had been diagnosed sooner, right?
• 49:18
  Jorie: And that's normal.
• 49:21
  Jorie: You just don't want to get stuck there.
• 49:23
  Jorie: Um and in terms of how to move forward from that, like talk to your doctor about what all your options are in terms of do you want to do medication?
• 49:33
  Jorie: I definitely do recommend a therapist in the beginning if you can for that reason, for the grieving.
• 49:38
  Jorie: And then eventually you will want to work with a coach.
• 49:42
  Jorie: Um, just somebody who can kind of show you because my experience has been, and maybe you can it's maybe uh you feel differently.
• 49:49
  Jorie: My fe my experience has been that therapists like to deal with like the past and helping them move forward.
• 49:55
  Jorie: And I am the person who helps them with like just the day-to-day tasks, right?
• 49:59
  Jorie: So that that will then help to build up their confidence that will also help with the the moving forward as well.
• 50:06
  Jorie: So um, so that's where somebody like me comes in.
• 50:10
  Jorie: So we then start to take a look at what your ADHD looks like, where your real where your challenges are.
• 50:15
  Jorie: Okay, how can we put some guardrails around those?
• 50:18
  Jorie: What are your strengths?
• 50:19
  Jorie: And sometimes it takes a while for them to really see them, but they do eventually.
• 50:23
  Jorie: And we we talk a we work a lot with self-talk.
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 50:27
  Jorie: Because you can't just turn that off with the diagnosis.
• 50:30
  Jorie: And you've been beating yourself up for a long time, and that's an important thing to recognize is when you catch it, how can we redirect that?
• 50:41
  unknown: Yeah.
• 50:41
  Mary: Yeah, I love all that.
• 50:42
  Mary: And I do agree with the coach.
• 50:44
  Mary: So I also do some coaching, but I think some people have even said to me, I'm never sure if I should bring up coaching with a therapist.
• 50:50
  Mary: And, you know, it really a lot of times, once, like you're saying, there is sort of when somebody finds out, okay, here's what's happening, or my gosh, I didn't realize how this childhood situation is affecting me now, they can move through that.
• 51:07
  Mary: And then it's like, okay, give me actionable things.
• 51:10
  Mary: How do I practically address this?
• 51:13
  Mary: And so I think that's really important.
• 51:15
  Mary: And I think the other thing that I would say is if there's someone who's already seeing a therapist, or when you talk about assessment, it's it is multi-day often, it's very expensive.
• 51:28
  Mary: It's typically not covered by insurance.
• 51:30
  Mary: Start with a therapist.
• 51:31
  Mary: If you have insurance that covers therapy, go in and just dump it and say, here's all the stuff.
• 51:37
  Mary: I'm worried about this.
• 51:38
  Mary: I think this might be this.
• 51:40
  Mary: Get help from a therapist to tease all of that apart.
• 51:44
  Mary: And of course, I can't um prescribe medication.
• 51:48
  Mary: But I think if you have somebody who's knowledgeable about some of that intersection of female ADHD symptoms, and I say that, you know, again, with the quotes, female, um, but what that typically looks like, how anxiety might be playing a part, how reaction to past trauma might be playing a part, that's really complex sometimes.
• 52:10
  Mary: So I think just having somebody where you get unconditional positive regard, you can say anything, you can be clueless, you can be like, I think this is what's happening, but I'm not sure.
• 52:21
  Mary: I think that can also be very empowering to help to look at these, okay.
• 52:27
  Mary: Here's this pile and here's this pile, and here's how do they all relate?
• 52:30
  Mary: And then get that help to then maybe get that next step somehow.
• 52:36
  Mary: So that's another starting point, I think.
• 52:39
  Mary: If somebody looks at the cost of an assessment.
• 52:42
  Jorie: Yeah, that it is.
• 52:43
  Jorie: That's why I said if it, if, if it's financially feasible, sometimes you have to pay up front and then they'll help you bill insurance, but that cost can be can be quite a bit.
• 52:52
  Jorie: But yeah, it's like you said, if you have somebody who can, you know, you I sometimes give people a form, it's called the adult, um, the ADHD adult self-report form or something like that.
• 53:04
  Jorie: Yep.
• 53:04
  Jorie: And I'm like, fill this out and take it to your doctor and make a copy for you too, so you can look at it when you're talking to the doctor.
• 53:10
  Jorie: But like, I wish I'd had this because it's I was like, oh, because whenever I would try to talk about it, my brain would go blank.
• 53:16
  Jorie: So this is a way to bring it up with your doctor, with your therapist.
• 53:20
  Jorie: Um, so if somebody wants it, they can reach out to me.
• 53:22
  Jorie: I'm happy to give that to them.
• 53:24
  Jorie: And the other thing I wanted to say too is one of the other things that I think is really important about getting therapy or getting coaching is one of the things that I've seen help to take the shame out very much more quickly than I think it would have otherwise.
• 53:40
  Jorie: When I first started therapy, they gave me the uh Eisenhower square, whatever it was called.
• 53:46
  Jorie: I can't the words blanking.
• 53:48
  Jorie: And I had, I was like, how can something be urgent and not important?
• 53:52
  Jorie: I could not wrap my mind around that.
• 53:54
  Mary: Okay.
• 53:55
  Jorie: And so I didn't do any of it.
• 53:56
  Jorie: And I almost canceled the appointment because I was embarrassed.
• 53:58
  Jorie: And then I was like, no, like this that that's not gonna help me.
• 54:02
  Jorie: And she said, no, this that tells me what I need to know.
• 54:05
  Jorie: And so I do that with all of my clients.
• 54:07
  Jorie: I'm like, if you don't do your homework, don't not don't cancel your appointment because that's probably gonna tell me something that's gonna help us put something together for you, right?
• 54:15
  Jorie: And so I'm like, there's no shame with this.
• 54:17
  Jorie: You're just figuring it out.
• 54:18
  Jorie: And so if this is something that's a struggle for you, that we need to know that.
• 54:21
  Jorie: Yeah.
• 54:21
  Jorie: So always look into it.
• 54:22
  Jorie: I tell people all the time, look at this through the lens of curiosity because that immediately takes the judgment out.
• 54:30
  Jorie: You're just think of it as like a big science experiment or something fun like that, where you're just like, ooh, so what's going on today with my brain?
• 54:37
  Jorie: Right?
• 54:37
  Jorie: Like it make it, it can be fun.
• 54:39
  Jorie: And just remember, we just have a different operating system.
• 54:42
  Jorie: You know, the rest of the world was born with a PC brain.
• 54:44
  Jorie: We were born with Max, but we were given the PC manual, and that's why it's been hard.
• 54:48
  Mary: So well, and I'm gonna tell you, after 35 years doing the work I do, I'm not even sure what neurotypical is or if it exists.
• 54:56
  Mary: So to just sort of normalize, we are all on a spectrum, and there are things that you don't even recognize.
• 55:04
  Mary: Sometimes sitting from where you are, you might look at somebody and think, they're totally quote, normal or they're totally typical.
• 55:10
  Mary: And I can have a few sessions with them and and recognize, oh no, here's something that was an adaptive thing, or here's something that they, their processing is not like what we think of as typical, but they have compensated.
• 55:24
  Mary: So I think that's the other thing that I don't want to downplay someone who has, you know, some neurodivergent things happening and just say, oh, it's like you're not different, or you're not, but I do want to say that I think that there is such a bigger continuum than we recognize because they're learning all the time.
• 55:45
  Jorie: Oh, yeah.
• 55:46
  Jorie: You know, like they used to say that if you had autism, you couldn't have ADHD.
• 55:49
  Jorie: And now they're realizing there's a huge overlap, and there's actually a large percentage of people who have both, and they call it Audi HD.
• 55:56
  Jorie: And I think, you know, I'm always like, just be open to learning.
• 56:00
  Jorie: And as new information comes in, I'm always like double checking things to see what they're coming up with now.
• 56:05
  Jorie: And but yeah, I agree.
• 56:06
  Jorie: Like everybody, you know, everybody's got something, you know what I mean?
• 56:10
  Jorie: And when I hear like my kids say, but I just want to be normal.
• 56:14
  Jorie: I'm like, who decides what's normal?
• 56:16
  Jorie: Yeah.
• 56:16
  Jorie: I'm like boring people.
• 56:18
  Jorie: That is who does.
• 56:19
  Jorie: Like you want to have like, like, it's it you want to be unique.
• 56:23
  Jorie: That's how I look at it.
• 56:24
  Jorie: So yeah.
• 56:25
  Mary: And that's what I think is so beautiful about the work that I do.
• 56:28
  Mary: I love just seeing these strengths that people have.
• 56:31
  Mary: And especially, you know, I'm a little bit partial to women because that's now who I work with and who we're really talking to.
• 56:37
  Mary: But I just think we have done so much adapting because to one of the points you made earlier, medical research was not about women for many, many, many years.
• 56:48
  Mary: Unless maybe you were pregnant and they wanted to then sort of look at some stuff.
• 56:52
  Mary: But that's why we're catching up because so many things were it was male subjects and normed on males and all of those things.
• 57:01
  Mary: So yeah, we're catching up in a lot of things.
• 57:04
  Mary: Um, I think this was a great conversation.
• 57:07
  Mary: So if you can do a quick snippet of how you help people and where they can find you, and then I'll put that in the show notes.
• 57:15
  Jorie: Sure.
• 57:16
  Jorie: So um I say that I am your guide for the dopamine deprived.
• 57:20
  Jorie: And so I help women figure out how their brains work, figure out what their patterns are, figure out what their ADHD looks like.
• 57:27
  Jorie: So then we can create systems and put guardrails around things that are challenging for you, help to enhance your strengths, to see your strengths, so that you can really start to thrive.
• 57:39
  Jorie: I, you know, your show is, you know, no shrinking violet.
• 57:41
  Jorie: And I feel like people with ADHD very often end up sort of in this small thing because we're told we're too much a lot of the time.
• 57:47
  Jorie: And I will tell you, when you start doing this work, you are just gonna blossom.
• 57:52
  Jorie: I have seen some amazing things from women who came in very much like, you know, very small and you know, closed chested and the whole thing.
• 58:01
  Jorie: And now they're sitting up straight and they're like, and I did this because I always start sessions off with, do we have any wins?
• 58:07
  Jorie: And no win is too small.
• 58:09
  Jorie: And so that's that is what I do in terms of the coaching.
• 58:12
  Jorie: Um, I also am putting together a group program that's going to start in the new year, and then I have the podcast.
• 58:18
  Jorie: So um, you can find all of that information at joryhoolahan.com.
• 58:22
  Mary: So awesome.
• 58:23
  Mary: Such important work.
• 58:24
  Mary: I'm so glad that you have arrived to where you are and that you're using what you know to help other people.
• 58:30
  Mary: Thank you so much for being here.
• 58:32
  Jorie: Well, thank you very much for having me.
• 58:34
  Jorie: This was a great conversation.
• 58:35
  Mary: And I want to thank everyone for listening.
• 58:37
  Mary: As I near the one year anniversary of my podcast, I'd love to hear from you.
• 58:42
  Mary: What topics did you love?
• 58:43
  Mary: What would you like to hear more about?
• 58:45
  Mary: And what new topics would you like me to cover in 2026?
• 58:48
  Mary: You can text me through the link in the show notes or email me at nsvpodcast at gmail.com, which I've also linked in the show notes.
• 58:57
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant, violet that you are.